The Pioneer of "Emotional Intelligence" Daniel Goleman on a Balanced Life

Summary

In this insightful discussion, Daniel Goldman explores the concept of achieving and sustaining excellence in daily life, emphasizing the importance of emotional intelligence. He outlines techniques for enhancing self-awareness, managing emotions, and fostering empathy—key components for personal and professional success. Goldman argues that emotional intelligence is not only learnable but can improve with age, and he advocates for its cultivation in younger generations through social-emotional learning. The conversation also touches on the role of AI in understanding and responding to human emotions, suggesting that while AI can mimic emotional language, genuine empathy requires a human touch.

Takeaways

• 🌟 Optimal performance is about having a really good day at work, characterized by engagement, productivity, and a sense of accomplishment.
• 💡 Emotional intelligence is crucial for personal and professional success, consisting of self-awareness, self-management, empathy, and relationship management.
• 🧠 Self-awareness involves understanding your emotions and how they shape your thoughts and actions. It is the foundation of emotional intelligence.
• 🛌 Practicing mindfulness can enhance self-awareness and focus. A simple exercise involves focusing on your breath and gently redirecting your attention when your mind wanders.
• 🚫 Negative self-talk can be destructive. Reframing your thoughts to focus on learning and positive aspects can improve self-management and resilience.
• 💭 Empathy is not just understanding others' emotions but also caring about them. It is essential for building strong relationships and fostering a supportive environment.
• 🌐 The shift to remote work and digital communication has reduced natural social interactions, impacting emotional intelligence and empathy in the workplace.
• 📈 Organizations can cultivate emotional intelligence by integrating it into their culture, selection processes, performance reviews, and offering ongoing training programs.
• 🌍 Addressing global issues like climate change requires emotional intelligence to channel feelings of anger and anxiety into positive, focused action.
• 👴 Emotional intelligence tends to improve with age, making the退休 life a valuable time for personal growth and contribution to others.
• 📚 Daniel Goldman emphasizes the importance of modeling emotional intelligence and focusing on one task at a time to achieve optimal performance.

Q & A

What is the concept of 'optimal day' as discussed in the transcript?

The concept of 'optimal day' refers to a day where one feels good and performs well, achieving a state of excellence in their activities. This includes being engaged, productive, solving problems, and connecting with others. It's about having a good day at work or in life, rather than striving for a perfect or stress-inducing standard of excellence.

How does the guest define 'emotional intelligence'?

Emotional intelligence is defined as having four key components: self-awareness, managing emotions, empathy, and managing relationships. Self-awareness involves understanding one's feelings and how they influence thoughts and actions. Managing emotions is about being resilient and not letting negative emotions overwhelm you. Empathy is understanding and resonating with others' feelings, and the final component is effectively managing relationships.

What is the significance of 'somatic markers' in achieving an optimal state?

Somatic markers refer to the gut feelings or intuitive sense of whether something feels right or wrong. These markers are crucial for staying on track and assessing whether our actions are helpful or not. They are stored in parts of the brain that don't think in words, but are connected to our emotional responses, providing a non-verbal guide to our decision-making.

How does the guest suggest improving self-awareness?

The guest suggests improving self-awareness through mindfulness techniques that essentially train attention. One simple exercise involves focusing on one's breath, noticing when the mind wanders, and gently bringing the focus back to the breath. This practice strengthens the neural circuitry for focus and helps in becoming absorbed in what one is doing.

What is the role of 'self-talk' in emotional intelligence?

Self-talk refers to the internal monologue that runs through our heads. If this self-talk is critical or negative, it can be destructive. However, by reframing our self-talk to focus on learning from experiences and recognizing what we do right, we can improve our emotional intelligence. This involves being aware of our self-talk and consciously choosing to focus on positive aspects rather than dwelling on negatives.

How does the concept of 'grit' relate to achieving excellence?

Grit is the persistence and determination to keep moving towards a larger goal despite daily distractions and challenges. It is an essential component of self-management and is crucial for achieving excellence. Grit helps individuals maintain their focus on their goals and make consistent progress, even when faced with obstacles.

What is the importance of 'empathic concern' in emotional intelligence?

Empathic concern is the feeling of care and concern for others. It goes beyond understanding and resonating with others' emotions (emotional empathy) to actually caring about their well-being. This type of empathy is particularly important in close relationships and is a critical aspect of emotional intelligence that AI, which lacks emotions, cannot replicate.

How does the guest suggest organizations can cultivate emotional intelligence among their leaders?

Organizations can cultivate emotional intelligence by having a visible champion from the business side, embedding emotional intelligence into the performance review process, and offering ongoing training programs. These practices help to integrate emotional intelligence into the company culture and ensure it is valued and practiced at all levels.

What are the guest's thoughts on the impact of remote work on emotional intelligence and empathy?

The guest believes that remote work can diminish naturally occurring opportunities for empathy and connection, as fewer people are spending time physically with their co-workers. This can lead to a more transactional and less empathetic work environment. To compensate, individuals should make an effort to reach out and connect with colleagues beyond work situations, focusing on personal rather than just professional aspects of their lives.

How does the guest propose dealing with large societal issues like climate change that cause anxiety?

The guest suggests using emotional intelligence to channel feelings of anger and anxiety into positive actions. For example, anger towards corruption or social issues can be focused into motivation for positive change. In the case of anxiety about climate change, the guest advocates using the current economic system to promote transparency and improvements in how companies operate, potentially lowering the environmental impact over time.

What is the guest's advice for individuals who feel hesitant to be open and honest at work due to fear of repercussions?

The guest advises individuals to take control of their inner life and not let external circumstances dictate how they feel. He references the Serenity Prayer, emphasizing the importance of focusing on what one can control and letting go of what one cannot change.

Outlines

00:00

🌟 Introduction to Optimal Living

The conversation begins with an introduction to the concept of 'optimal living' and its relation to daily excellence. The guest, Daniel Goldman, discusses the misconceptions around striving for excellence and how it can be achieved through engagement, productivity, and positive interactions at work. The idea extends to optimal life, emphasizing the importance of emotional intelligence and its four key components: self-awareness, managing emotions, empathy, and relationship management. The discussion also touches on the relevance of these concepts in the current digital and post-covid world, where loneliness and isolation are prevalent issues.

05:00

🧠 Emotional Intelligence: Definition and Evolution

This paragraph delves into the specifics of emotional intelligence, breaking it down into its core components: self-awareness, managing emotions, empathy, and relationship management. It discusses how emotional intelligence has evolved since its inception, with various models emerging that agree on these core components. The conversation also explores the impact of emotional intelligence on personal and professional life, and how it has become a critical factor in leadership and management roles.

10:00

💡 The Optimal State vs Flow State

The discussion distinguishes between the optimal state and the flow state, explaining that while flow is a rare and unpredictable peak performance experience, the optimal state is a more attainable and consistent state of being. The paragraph emphasizes the importance of self-awareness and mindfulness techniques to achieve this optimal state, which involves being fully engaged and committed to the task at hand. Practical advice on how to train the mind to maintain focus and refocus when distracted is provided.

15:04

🌈 Cultivating Empathy and Emotional Intelligence

This section focuses on the cultivation of empathy and emotional intelligence, particularly in the workplace. It highlights the importance of understanding and managing one's own emotions, as well as empathizing with others. The conversation points out that while AI can mimic the language of empathy, it lacks the genuine emotional connection that humans can provide. The discussion also touches on the role of empathy in maintaining positive interpersonal relationships and the challenges posed by remote work and digital communication.

20:05

🛠️ Enhancing Emotional Intelligence and Leadership

The conversation explores strategies for enhancing emotional intelligence, especially in leadership roles. It emphasizes the need for organizations to foster a culture of emotional intelligence through visible champions, performance reviews that include emotional intelligence metrics, and ongoing training programs. The impact of emotional intelligence on employee engagement, job satisfaction, and overall business performance is discussed, with examples of companies that have successfully integrated emotional intelligence into their culture.

25:06

🌍 Broader Implications of Emotional Intelligence

The discussion moves beyond the individual and organizational levels to consider the broader societal implications of emotional intelligence. It addresses the role of emotional intelligence in addressing global issues such as climate change and political corruption, and how individuals can use their understanding of emotional intelligence to channel their concerns into positive action. The conversation also touches on the potential of emotional intelligence to reduce violence and improve the world.

30:07

📚 Spreading the Word on Optimal Living

The final paragraph discusses ways to spread the concept of optimal living and emotional intelligence. It emphasizes the power of modeling these qualities and the importance of starting with small, manageable steps, such as the breath focus exercise. The conversation also addresses questions about applying emotional intelligence in various life situations, including retirement, dealing with work-related fears, and the unique challenges of living with autism or PTSD.

Keywords

💡Optimal Performance

Optimal Performance refers to achieving the best possible outcome in any given situation, which in the context of the video, is linked to the concept of 'excellence' and 'engagement'. It is about being fully absorbed and productive in what one is doing, solving problems effectively, and making progress towards larger goals. The video emphasizes that this state is not only achievable but also sustainable with the right mindset and practices.

💡Emotional Intelligence

Emotional Intelligence (EI) is the ability to recognize, understand, and manage our own emotions and the emotions of others. In the video, EI is broken down into four key components: self-awareness, self-management, empathy, and relationship management. The speaker argues that EI is crucial for personal and professional success, as it helps individuals navigate social interactions and work environments more effectively.

💡Self-Awareness

Self-awareness is the first component of emotional intelligence and involves being conscious of one's own emotions, thoughts, and their impact on behavior. In the video, self-awareness is emphasized as a critical step towards achieving an optimal state, allowing individuals to focus and be fully present in their actions and interactions.

💡Empathy

Empathy is the ability to understand and share the feelings of others. It is a fundamental aspect of emotional intelligence and is crucial for building strong relationships and fostering a supportive environment. In the video, the speaker discusses three types of empathy: cognitive empathy, emotional empathy, and empathic concern, all of which contribute to effective communication and leadership.

💡Mindfulness

Mindfulness is a mental state achieved by focusing one's awareness on the present moment, while calmly acknowledging and accepting one's feelings, thoughts, and bodily sensations. In the video, mindfulness is presented as a technique to improve self-awareness and attention, which are essential for optimal performance.

💡Resilience

Resilience refers to the capacity to recover quickly from difficulties or to adapt to challenging situations. It is an essential component of emotional intelligence, enabling individuals to bounce back from negative emotions or stress and to maintain a positive outlook in the face of adversity.

💡Self-Management

Self-management involves the ability to regulate one's emotions, thoughts, and behaviors in the face of internal or external pressures. It is a key aspect of emotional intelligence that allows individuals to stay focused, motivated, and to handle stress effectively without letting negative emotions overwhelm them.

💡Grit

Grit is a combination of perseverance and passion for long-term goals. It involves the ability to maintain focus and continue working towards one's objectives despite obstacles and setbacks. In the context of the video, grit is seen as a critical trait for achieving excellence and maintaining an optimal state of performance.

💡Engagement

Engagement refers to the state of being fully involved, absorbed, and enthusiastic about one's work or activities. It is a key element of optimal performance and is closely linked to emotional intelligence, as it involves being productive, solving problems, and connecting with others in a meaningful way.

💡Optimal Life

Optimal Life is the concept of living one's life to the fullest potential, marked by a balance of personal well-being, professional success, and positive relationships. It extends the idea of optimal performance from a single day to an entire life, suggesting that the practices and mindset that lead to an optimal day can also contribute to a fulfilling and meaningful life.

Highlights

The concept of 'optimal day' is defined as having a really good day at work, being engaged, productive, and solving problems.

Excellence is not about being perfect, but about doing your best and feeling good about your work and interactions.

Emotional intelligence is crucial for optimal performance and is composed of self-awareness, self-management, empathy, and relationship management.

Self-awareness involves understanding your feelings and how they shape your thoughts and actions.

Self-management is about not letting negative emotions overwhelm you and maintaining resilience.

Empathy is not just understanding others' thoughts but also resonating with their emotions and caring about their well-being.

Organizations can foster emotional intelligence by having visible champions, embedding it in performance reviews, and offering training programs.

Emotional intelligence can improve with age as people mature and become more balanced.

AI can mimic the language of empathy but may lack the emotional resonance that humans naturally possess.

Individuals can enhance their emotional intelligence through practices like mindfulness and focusing on their breath.

The ability to pause and inhibit knee-jerk reactions is a key component of emotional intelligence and can be developed through cognitive control exercises.

Emotional intelligence can help individuals manage feelings of anger and anxiety regarding large-scale issues like climate change and corruption.

Cultivating emotional intelligence in younger generations can be achieved through social-emotional learning programs.

Emotional intelligence is not just about staying calm but also recognizing when a certain level of stress can be beneficial for performance.

Multitasking is a myth as the brain can only focus on one task at a time, and improving attention can help manage distractions.

The importance of feedback in developing empathy and understanding others' emotions is emphasized.

The impact of remote work and digital communication on emotional intelligence and workplace relationships is discussed.

The idea of 'optimal living' is explored as a way to reduce violence and improve societal interactions.

The balance between being open and honest at work while managing the fear of potential negative consequences is addressed.

The role of emotional intelligence in recruitment and hiring processes is questioned, highlighting the challenges AI may face in this area.

Transcripts

[Music]

So Daniel Goldman thank you very much

indeed for joining us honor it's my

pleasure thank you can I start by asking

you about this title optimal but more

how to sustain Excellence every day

people's immediate reaction to that

might be that it sounds quite a

stressful goal um Excellence every day

you know is something that many of us

perhaps just think sounds much too much

of an effort to

sustain you know actually

um if you think of Excellence as your

very best performance

ever the time you were in flow for

example I think it is too high a

standard what we're talking about as

Excellence is having a really good day

at work for example uh being very

engaged being absorbed in what you're

doing being very productive having uh

small winds toward a larger goal solving

problems that come up connecting with

the people around you and feeling good

uh that's uh that's what you might call

having a good day and I think that's a

more reasonable goal that's what we mean

by excellence and is that what you mean

to Define by Optimal that word the word

optimal um is a handy way of talking

about such a a day and the data for it

comes actually from Harvard Business

School from a study where hundreds of

men and women were at asked to keep a

log a journal of how they felt that day

how things went how productive they were

how they solved problems what they call

small winds toward a larger goal and the

composite portrait that emerged was of

an optimal day feeling good and doing

well so you've you've mentioned a day uh

here you you've talked about a day where

you do everything to your idea of

Excellence to your optimal but

presumably if the goal is to have an

optimal day it's also to have an optimal

life in doing

so I suppose you could extend it and I

think that it's a a natural impulse to

do that so if you know how how to be

engaged how to pay attention how to

empathize with other people the people

in your life the people you care about I

think that it would extend to your life

generally absolutely so who who then is

this book

for anybody everybody I think so yeah

and I think it's important to ask as you

ask in the book and you both question

why now why this Theory now the theory

of seeking an optimal day an optimal

life um is it something that coincides

with the world in which we're living

increased digitization perhaps a postco

world in which we work in very different

ways you know uh surveys show that

loneliness for example is higher than

ever uh people feel more isolated I

don't know about in the UK but I have

many friends here who work say two days

a week in the office instead of five and

there's a lot of zooming and

transactional uh in you know interplay

but what we've lost is the kind of easy

socializing that happened when we were

seeing friends more often when we were

at work uh with our workmates because

you got to know people in a way that I

think doesn't occur so uh I think it's

in that context Reinhold neber made a

very important distinction it was

between the things in our lives that we

can change and the courage to do that

and the things that we can change that

we have to put up with and many of us

have to put up with an existence whether

it's at work or in the conditions of our

life uh which aren't optimal but we can

do the best we can within that and

that's what we're encouraging people to

do to take control not to let the

circumstance of your work life or your

life generally dictate how you feel but

to be more active more proactive in

terms of uh being sure to do the best

that you can internally that will show

itself

externally yes I mean and there's so it

is such a it is a book full of practical

tips and advice H and nothing is forever

if you think listening that you're not a

certain person and you can't can't be a

certain way you show us that actually

everything is flexible and malleable in

our characters so let I mean just before

we move on to that advice there are just

I think some clarifications that you

make at the start of the book and

perhaps most importantly is how this

links with emotional intelligence which

it does um how how o obviously um how

optimal and living in the way you

advocate making every day uh feel a

success links in with the capacity for

an emotional for emotional

intelligence well let's talk about first

what emotional intelligence is a good

place to start me uh there are four

parts the first is self-awareness

knowing what you're feeling often we

don't even pay attention to what we're

feeling knowing how those feelings uh

shape your perception your thinking

your impulse to act uh that's emotional

self-awareness and I think is very

important it's the Keystone in emotional

intelligence from that you can then

manage your emotions better and by

manage emotions I don't mean control or

subdue emotions are important messages

they're telling us what uh what's going

on in our life but if our emotions are

upsetting us if we're waking up at 2 in

the morning and ruminating about them

then they're out of control and we may

want to manage them better be more

resilient actually resilience means uh

the time it takes to go you go from Peak

upset to back to calm and clear and not

only uh the second part of emotional

intelligence is about how we manage

emotions it's not just the rocky

emotions it's also uh keeping in touch

with our sense of meaning and purpose

what matters to us what motivates us

what our real goals are in life not

being distracted from them the third

part of emotional intelligence is

empathy uh understanding how the other

person thinks about things the language

they use uh by the way AI would be very

good at that uh but then something AI

don't think would be good at it's

resonating with people emotionally

knowing how that person feels because

you feel it too and then the third part

is really important that's car ing it's

called empathic concern it's like a

parents love for a child you care about

the person you not only know how they

think and feel and then the fourth part

is putting that all together in managing

relationships well effectively

harmoniously or settling differences for

example so that's what emotional

intelligence is and the data that we

have uh shows that for example when a

company looks through its lens at

emotional intelligence one of the things

it values and employs is what they call

engagement well actually being absorbed

being involved that's one of the

components of that good day it turns out

as we show in the book that uh from uh a

an organization's point of view that

good day that we feel is what they want

and it correlates very highly with

emotional

intelligence can I ask uh from your

perspective how you feel the idea of

emotional intelligence has changed since

it first came into common pance because

of course you say in the book um that

there are of many controversies now over

you know what it means within the field

because it is so widely used and of

course the similarities as you've just

laid out but how has it changed or how

has Society changed because of

it well you know those are two very big

questions let me answer the first how

has emotional intelligence change when I

wrote the book uh emotional intelligence

was very little direct research in fact

it was a brand new idea since that idea

became very widespread there are many

many different models of emotional

intelligence uh most of them agree on

those four parts but how they fill in

those parts is very different yeah so I

would say one of the big changes is that

uh there different schools of thought on

emotional intelligence just as by the

way there different schools of thought

on IQ which has been around for more

than a hundred years emotional

intelligence is a relatively new

idea we wrote this book now uh my

co-author Carrie chernes and I uh were

co-directors of a research Consortium on

emotional intelligence we wrote the book

now because now there's a critical mass

of data showing that uh this helps

people in their Liv lives it helps them

at work it helps managers and leaders be

the kind of boss you love instead of the

kind of Boss You Hate by the way I've

asked I've asked organizations and and

groups around the world tell me about a

boss you loved and a boss you hated and

it doesn't matter where you ask the

answer is I want an emotionally

intelligent boss I don't want one who's

tuned out who doesn't care who's aloof

uh and people leave Bad Bosses so

one of the ways uh I think that bad

bosses are hurting organizations and

businesses is by pressuring people to

get results instead of inspiring them

and motivating them to get those results

so this means that people are burning

out when they shouldn't be and they're

the best people are more likely to quit

so anyway I think I'm rambling why

didn't you direct me again yeah no

you're not rambling at all and I as you

say I asked very big questions two of of

them but how it's changed um emotional

intelligence since it came first came

into being we get a sense of and I mean

when I listen to you say that the

immediate question which I expect you

get asked a huge amount which you don't

necessarily address you know um head on

in the book but is are are women

generally better at um generally more

emotionally intelligent than men or is

there no gender divide in your

research you know when you talk about

gender differences in Behavior you're

talking about two largely overlapping

belt curves so women generally tend to

do much better than men uh on uh

elements like

um empathy we talk to girls about

relationships we talk to boys about

things generally so they're socialized

differently in our culture uh women tend

to score better on tests of emotional

intelligence uh than men do

but uh this is largely because of

women's social skills which are better

than men's generally but it doesn't mean

that any given man couldn't be as good

as any given woman on social skill and

men tend to be better for example than

women on handling upsetting emotions but

it doesn't mean that any woman any given

woman couldn't be as good as any man at

handling those

emotions and you talk a lot uh in the

book about how to differentiate and why

it's important diff to differentiate

between the type of

Engagement that you're trying to teach

your readers how to um learn and another

thing that is talked about more and more

and I'm sure our howto Academy listeners

uh and viewers will know about Flow

State but it's important isn't it to Def

differentiate between what you're

advocating and hoping to bring into

people's lives it's very different from

Flow State which is often something very

hard to grasp and you can't predict when

it's

coming well yes so flow is that one time

you outdid yourself at whatever matters

to you and it it's uh not something you

can predict it just happens to us and

it's wonderful but it's very rare so uh

we argue that it's not helpful to expect

to be in flow uh any given day that it's

better to

uh try for what we call the optimal

range which is below flow but still very

good uh and it's something you can do

something you can get better at or you

can there are ways and I hope we'll talk

about how to do how to get into that

optimal State let's talk about that then

so the ways in which we do that are very

much in sync with the ideas of emotional

intelligence the the pillars that you've

outlined mind and the first way that you

encourage and advise people to to help

help get into the optimal zone is

through what you described as

self-awareness it's the personal that we

address first if I'm right H and one of

those important key pillars of that is

self-awareness so could you explain what

self-awareness as you describe it looks

like and and why it's so important and

then we can go into your self-awareness

helpers well uh you can say it's

self-awareness I think of it as Focus

which is an aspect that's like applied

self-awareness the question is uh what's

on your mind right now you know when

they did research at Harvard where they

uh gave people an app that rang them at

random times of day and asked what are

you doing now and what are you thinking

about people were actually distracted

about 50% of the time up to 90% at work

meaning you're thinking about something

else so what the first uh Avenue We

Believe into an optimal state is to pay

full attention there are many so-called

mindfulness techniques now that are

popular actually they're really

attention training when you get used to

or train your mind to notice when you're

distracted and bring it back to a point

of focus that is an extremely valuable

skill and it means you can become

absorbed in what you're doing right now

now and we find that that is a key to

getting into your optimal State because

it means you're fully engaged you're

fully committed you're fully involved in

what you're doing and the rest of it

comes as a

concomitant so perhaps you could give us

some tips as you do about how to do that

how how do we uh you know attention

train how do we um put things into our

lives so that we become absorbed so that

we're aware which is what you're talking

about so consistently so that we're

aware when our thoughts drift and we

know how to refocus our attention well

you know the the good thing here is that

the brain operates the same way your

muscles do you know when you go to the

gym every time you do a rep with a a

weight a repetition you're making that

muscle that much stronger it's the same

with our minds that every time you bring

your mind back from being distracted

you're making the neural circuitry for

uh Focus stronger so there's a simple

exercise uh you can do it anywhere any

time I recommend doing it maybe 5 10

minutes whatever you can afford before

you go to work for example before you

start your day and you might you can do

it this way you pay full attention to

your in breath and to your out breath

and the space between the breath and

again with the next breath and then when

you know notice your mind has wandered

off and it will I guarantee when you

notice it's wandered you bring it back

to your breath that is the mental

repetition that builds the neural skill

of paying full attention to what matters

right now and you want to bring that

with you to work or whatever matters to

you during the

day so on a practical level perhaps I

could ask your recommendation is that

that's a practice you you compared this

to ex exercise that is the similar

similar thing to going for a run in the

morning or or doing your weights and

that sustains you throughout the optimal

day it isn't that every time should you

know should you repeat that through the

day or is that an exercise a training

how do you draw on that when you need it

well you know you go to the gym once a

day I would suggest you try this because

what you're doing is building mental

Fitness and it happens gradually it

happens slowly you're not going to have

a magical first day I did this uh it was

better it's going to happen slowly and

if you work at it steadily so I

recommend starting with five minutes and

extending it to whatever is comfortable

for you whatever you make time for in

your day but make it a priority the same

way you make your physical exercise a

priority uh and this is going to help

you at work just as getting physically

fit helps you through the day this

mental Fitness will help you pay more

attention to what you need to be doing

right now you also talk about a very

important aspect of this which is um

checking your selft talk I've actually

spoken to a lot of people about this

recently it feels like a very um worthy

recurring theme in some of the

interviews I've been doing lately I was

interviewing a a psychoanalyst talking

about this very small number of words we

used to criticize ourself and he said

it's an actual a front to our

intelligence how can we do something

about that it's very important that we

do so your selft talk refers to that

ongoing monologue we all have inside our

our head and when that selft talk is

critical of something you did or about

to do or your abilities generally it's

very destructive uh as any therapist

will tell you and so uh you can reframe

your life you can reframe your

performance and say instead of what did

I do wrong what can I learn from what

happened to do better and what do I do

right in other words look at what's

working not just focusing on what's not

working you also talk in the book about

um the added VA value of self-awareness

a sort of SE second application of

self-awareness further than what we're

discussing and I perhaps you could

explain

that say a little more Hana I don't you

talk about the second application

sensing the subtle Sensations that tell

us whether what we're doing gives us the

feeling of opt optimal state or not you

say think again about the estimate as

you discuss um by the McKenzie

Consultants being optimal State can

result in feeling we are as much as five

times more effective as we are in our

usual state well yes there there two

elements here one is tuning into what

the neurologist Antonio damasio calls

somatic markers yes I found that

fascinating a gut feeling gut feeling uh

because it turns out that our life

experience is stored in a part of the

brain that has no direct access to uh

the part of the brain that thinks in

words it has lots of connection to the

to our GI tract as you say gut feeling

so does it feel right or does it it feel

wrong uh this is really important for

staying on track and also for seeing uh

is what we're doing helpful or

not so each one of your points I feel we

could probably spend an hour on and and

very happily have at least four hours

discussing this but in the interest of

time um you also talk about Beyond

self-awareness again on the personal

front you talk about

self-management and what does

self-manage this is where you talk about

the ability to uh manage yourself to

have strength and

self-control what does self-management

look like and how does that help us to

have an optimal day and an optimal life

let me clear up one common misconception

which is that self-management doesn't

mean no emotion it means appreciating

emotion and being aware of when emotion

for example sadness or anxiety or anger

is overwhelming and being resilient we

can't determine what we're going to feel

when we're going to feel it how strongly

we're going to feel it but once we have

a feeling we have a choice point which

is are we going to let that feeling run

us if it's very UPS if

it's passion motivation if it's a

positive feeling sure but if it's high

negative if it's disturbing uh if we

can't stop thinking about it that thing

that upsets us then it's better if we're

resilient and resilience means

technically the time it takes you to

recover from Peak upset to getting back

to a calm and clear state which is

facilitates that optimal that we've been

talking about uh and so uh

self-management means on the one hand

not letting your upset overwhelm you

managing it but also remembering what

has meaning here for you what where's

your sense of purpose what matters to

you about what you're doing what

motivates you uh can you see the

positive as I said before rather than

just zoning in on that negative selft

talk all of this is part of

self-management and you talk about the

importance uh that we perhaps of a of a

skill we perhaps gain as we grow older

but many of us and and you know don't

necessarily manage all that well which

is to leave a pause and time between

your first impulse whether it's anger or

upset or whatever it might be offence H

and and your

reaction you know uh Danny Conan wrote a

book Thinking Fast and Slow about system

one and system two as he called it one

of them is very fast and can get get us

in trouble uh and one of them is

relatively slower in brain time and that

means we can be more skillful in what we

do and you've put it very well Hana I

think we need to pause uh and be sure

that what we're about to do is the more

skillful

response I'm G to hope that I can

articulate a quandry I have when I was

reading this chapter which is you

advocate of course you talk about the

marshmallow experiment and the

importance of not acting on impulse and

having that um

self-control uh and you say that if you

have that you may not be um so prone to

anxiety and worry and I feel like

actually there are a lot of people who

have an enormous amount of

self-control and actually that enormous

amount of

self-control leads to uh them being

prone to anxiety and worry because it

sort of forms a sense of a

perfectionism it's not a relaxed quality

in a lot of people the need to uh have

such a such a rigid sense of

self-control I I hope that I've

articulated that query yes let me clear

that up because I'm glad you brought

this quandry to light uh perfectionism

is what we were talking about earlier

when we were saying you focus on what

you did wrong not what you did right in

fact there's a leadership style where

people people who are perfectionists

that is who drive themselves like

120% do better and get promoted to a

management position but they don't know

how to lead they just see other people

through that same critical lens so they

give critiques failing grades not

positive grades and if you do that with

yourself if you're a

perfectionist uh it is very debilitating

because you don't appreciate the good

side you don't appreciate what's helping

you so I think that managing selft talk

or monitoring selft talk and seeing am I

doing that again and when you say

enormous

self-control perhaps you means uh

someone who's suppressing emotion which

I don't think is helpful at all I think

it's just wanding watching the emotion

to see when is it debilitating and what

can you do about it rather than removing

all feeling which I don't think is

helpful in the in the first place

because you need your motivation you

need your passion you need to care uh

and these are all emotions that are very

helpful and before we move on I suppose

to um empathy which obviously forms a

huge part of this and bringing others in

and P inter personal relationships and

just um really interested by the changes

we spoke about earlier in emotional

intelligence and the language around it

you talk about uh the word grit that is

essentially a large relabeling of of the

achieve competence in your model and

what do you make of of grit how

important is is this idea of having a

sense of grit and

persistence if you're going to attain a

large goal whatever it may be for you uh

you need to persist you need what has

been called grit and uh from my point of

view it's the the goal to rather the

motivation to achieve a goal and this is

part of self-management too because

every day is going to bring distractions

and you know the crisis of the day the

question is can you keep moving toward

that larger goal one of the elements of

that optimal State or the op the good

day at work is that people have small

winds toward a larger goal I think this

is very important you're not going to

achieve it overnight it's a large goal

but you can do something daily or most

every day that moves you closer to it so

is it

fundamental to this sense of optimal and

to have an optimal day that you are

enjoying what you do one of the elements

of that good day is you feel good so uh

if you feel good I was talking to

someone about cust customer experience

for example if you encounter someone uh

in a store a retail Clerk or a call

center whoever it might be who's having

a bad day and treats you in a way where

they communicate that emotion to you and

by the way emotions are very

communicable very

transmittable uh it's going to make you

feel bad if you encounter someone who's

having a good day who feels good they're

going to make you feel good and you'll

feel better about that company or that

organization this is fundamental this is

a positive function uh in a business for

example of people being in that optimal

State and one of the things that strikes

me about the optimal state is that it's

it's a circle of positivity so instead

of a vicious circle once you one element

clicks into place the the rest sort of

rolls

on I would call it a virtuous circle

virtual Circle I was looking for that

because we're told we have much more

negative words in the English language

and I know the vicious circle is often

used and I was thinking of the virtuous

circle well what you're talking about

now really is leading in isn't it to

empathy um and we all have an idea of

what empathy is but you you clarify

these emotions and these feelings and

these ideas better than most so what is

the empathy that we are seeking in order

to reach an optimal State I think that

there are three kinds of empathy uh and

they seem to be based in different parts

of the brain one is cognitive empathy

understand uh how you think about what's

going on the labels you use to yourself

uh this is empathy that AI could be very

good at because it's a language model

this means you can be very effective at

messaging however there's a second kind

of empathy uh which is very different

that's emotional empathy that means I

know what you feel I I feel it to or I

sense it I resonate with you and this is

very positive in terms of keeping our

interaction uh on the same page so to

speak and the Third Kind of empathy is

technically called empathic concern it

means I care about you and I think it's

maybe the most important I worry about

AI for example because they're not

programmed to care necessarily about the

well-being of people uh and in in a

relationship in a close relationship

especially your spouse your co-workers

your boss your friends you want this

kind of empathy and you want to show it

do you think that perhaps that's a

reason not to worry about AI the fact

that they can't do this and the fact

that they can't do this means that we

shouldn't fear them entering the

workplace in the places where this is so

important uh that's a I think rather you

to opian vision for AI which I don't

really agree with I think that AI should

be programmed to care uh because

otherwise it could be very

destructive okay so that's interesting

you think that that is the way to deal

with AI is inevitable therefore come and

it needs to be programmed to care and

that's

possible there's a debate in AI circles

about this right now and I don't know

which way it will go okay interesting um

and in terms of how empathy we've talked

about uh how important empathy is what

it is but as with everything in the book

there are ways to boost these qualities

so how do you Advocate then that someone

who knows that empathy is something they

need within their workplace which is

everybody I would say uh and they feel

perhaps it's not a quality in which they

are strong H what are your methods of of

boosting empathy so first of all you

have to realize we almost never get

feedback about how other people actually

feel yeah we imagine how they feel so

one of the correctives is to try to get

that empathy try to get that feedback

rather about how a person is feeling you

can ask someone we rarely do uh but you

could say you know I sense you're

feeling X is that right or not that

already tells the brain something we

don't ordinally know and there's a

larger lesson here which which is that

emotional intelligence unlike IQ is

learn and learnable and we can enhance

it at any point in life that we're

motivated to do so I have a Daniel

gemman emotional intelligence online

program that's one way uh there are many

ways many companies for example offer

emotional intelligence programs to help

people become better so when it comes to

empathy I think the the prime way to

boost empathy is to do what the brain

hungers for which is to get feedback and

to see if you're right or you're not

about how the

other um actually you remind me of a

part of the book that I highlighted with

interest which is of course that

emotional intelligence you said you know

you can learn it at any stage of your

life and you also write that emotional

intelligence in fact perhaps improves

with

age emotional intelligence uh seems to

improve with age people as people mature

they become more calm more in charge of

their lives hopefully survey data seems

to show that emotional intelligence

unlike IQ by the way uh does improve

with

age and and just Mo moving back to a

question in fact I addressed at the very

start uh when you talk about the

importance of feedback um and these

relationships that are so important to

establishing empathy and understanding

empathy it makes me think again how much

I question what the world of work which

has changed so much in the last few

years does to that and the ease of that

because so many of us now do not work in

a place where we interact in person with

other people uh you know what has that

done to emotional intelligence to

empathy to relationships in the

workplace and the way and the way we

work and what the future looks like in

that sense yes this is really important

Hana and I think that uh to the extent

that we don't spend five days a week

with our co-workers very few people do

anymore uh that uh we don't have the

naturally occurring opportunity to get

to know them we don't go out for a drink

after work we don't have lunch together

we don't find out about other people's

family

situation uh and that's very very

important in terms of empathy because

you you understand the whole person you

sense more of the person at any rate

than you can if you only on Zoom for

example becomes very transactional or

you just have two days a week in the

office uh rather than five so I think

that what's happened is that the way we

work together is thinning out uh the

kind of naturally occurring empathy that

happened in the old format and how do

you think that we can compensate for

that or is the only way to encourage

getting back to a a workplace

environment you know I I think that uh

it behooves us to reach out to people

that matter to us and do that more to

you know have a phone call or get

together apart from the work situation

and ask about the person not about the

job but what do you want from Life what

do you want from career you know just

the kinds of things you'd want to know

know about another person that we no

longer have the opportunity to ask in a

naturally occurring

situation well before we started talking

I did say to you that our how-to Academy

viewers and listeners um have such

perceptive questions and I I hope I

might have time to come back to some

more of mine at the end but I'm

reluctant not to ask them so I'm gonna

just uh just jump in because um someone

who calls himself RS says Thank You For

This brilliant dialogue I'm learning a

great deal please could Daniel elaborate

on how AI is effective at the language

of empathy a real world example or

practical example would be very helpful

I mean I think you said it needs to

learn but perhaps you do have examples

well you know AI is a learning machine

the fact that it's a machine means it

has zero emotion it can only imitate

what it's like to have emotion when it

comes to language AI is extremely

proficient so I I don't know that I can

give off the top of my head a real life

example but anyone who uses AI knows it

can be really

fantastic at uh imitating the language

of someone about some topic it's

instantaneous whether it can resonate

emotionally I don't know but I think AI

can learn to maybe read emotion from

tone of voice or from facial expression

those are uh channels that Express

emotion

uh and then to imitate someone who's

empathic and empathic in all senses not

just the language

sense uh Sarah very good question which

um I know people will be interested in

how organizations cultivate a culture of

emotional intelligence amongst their

leaders and ensure this is sustained I

mean a brilliant question thank you

Sarah thank you for asking that in fact

much of the book is about exactly this

uh because we studied a few uh case

examples of companies that were uh in

terms of their culture quite emotionally

intelligent one thing we found was that

they had a visible champion from the

business side not from the resource you

know the human uh resources side someone

for example a senior vice president who

said this matters here and they let that

be known in for example uh their

selection process so people would self-

select they'd want to come company that

was emotionally intelligent they also

embedded it in the performance review it

wasn't just did you hit your numbers for

the quarter but how did you get them did

you bur people out did you pressure them

uh do people hate you or the most

talented going to leave that's the bad

way or did you inspire people did you

influence people uh did you coach people

that's the better way to get the best

performance to get people into that

optimal State and uh they also offered

training programs training that works

not just like um you know a two-hour

seminar but an ongoing practice in some

element that a person wants to get

better at of emotional intelligence

those were all uh typical of the

emotionally intelligent organizations

and by the way one of the companies we

looked at uh I don't know if it's in the

UK it's in the states it's called

Progressive it's used to be insurance

it's Financial now uh and U they had a

champion of emotional intelligence and

the director of their customer relations

unit which actually was all of the

insurance agents and he said you know

we're in a relationship business this

really counts and their profit was uh

just increased extraordinarily during

his

tenure do you think

overall Society has got better at this I

I I feel um positive that workplaces are

more sensitive and empathetic than

perhaps they used to

be I hope you're right but I'm not sure

I think it's quite

uneven uh you know emotional

intelligence programs have been

introduced in many schools but the way

they're implemented makes all the

difference if you don't have a teacher

who cares about it not gonna work uh if

you don't have a boss who cares about it

it's not going to work and I would say

that the uh forces that determine the

culture of a company are

multiple and uh emotional intelligence

may or may not be part of it so I'm

guess I'm not as sanguin as you are uh

well Peter asks if there are exercises

and another good question I'm sure many

of us will be interested to hear your

answer to help us to pause and inhibit

that knee-jerk reaction we were talking

about earlier you know it's called Uh

technically cognitive control it's the

ability of the brain to man manage

impulse and if your uh impulse to act is

very very strong it may not operate well

so uh practicing a pause is part of

developing attention uh developing that

Focus because the pause is built into

the ability to see some a thought or an

Impulse as a distraction and to go back

to what you're focusing on so I would

say that exercise I described where you

pay attention to the breath and when you

notice you're distracted you bring it

back will help you also with a pause and

remembering about the

pause particularly in the heat of a

moment is going to help too but that may

not always occur I should bring in here

because you also address um really large

issues at the end of the book uh that

that can cause more um sort of anxiety

than perhaps a kneejerk uh sense of

worry things like climate change poverty

political corruption that we look around

and see and that really do trigger

emotionally many people um how can you

improve you know how can you use

emotional intelligence to to feel calmer

in the face of those sorts of things

that we have no control over or we feel

we have no control over well let me uh

first talk about what makes us angry and

then what makes us anxious I think what

makes us angry for example is

corruption uh may be the the rich pour

Gap getting

larger uh and here my model is the

Doyama he says anger is a useful emotion

if you remove the hatred and you keep

the focus and the motivation and the

persistence and channel your anger in a

positive reaction uh this is very

similar to what Danny conman would say

about thinking fast and slow the anxiety

uh of climate change which is greater

among younger people uh I think is very

very important and one uh way I look at

this is to use our present economic

system whether you feel it's fair or not

in a kind of Judo I argue that uh people

now are blind to how the the things we

do and buy and use are uh creating great

uh

problems and disturbances not only in

the climate in carbon but in terms of

biodiversity palatable poble drinking

water uh you know there there are eight

great systems that support life on the

planet almost all of which are being

degraded by how we live and what I'm

saying is that Smart Companies will be

uh more transparent about ways in which

they're improving things things versus

their competition which may not be doing

that I think this will become a

Competitive Edge as things go on and

hopefully one day the lines will cross

and the improvements being made uh in

how we make and do uh will uh start to

lower the cost for the

climate um I me again as I said TR truly

fascinating and so much to discuss on

that but I'm going to ask a bring in

another audience question at this stage

um Andrew says it's a privilege to hear

you in person I've benefited and used

your teaching professionally over many

years and now I'm retired does your

research share any insights about

Optimal Performance emotional

intelligence in the third

age well as I said uh we tend to get

wiser uh with age we tend to become more

emotionally balanced with age and I

think that the uh the third part of life

after retirement is a wonderful time to

do something that helps other

people I think that's a a lovely uh

lovely answer to the to the question um

I suppose an anonymous attendee says um

and I'm sure this again is is a is a

issue and a consideration for many the

idea of being open and honest is a

very one we all want to to achieve and

and and a way that we all want to be but

um this person says what if I'm hesitant

to be open honest at work because of a

fear of losing my job or the fear may be

being criticized or you know being told

that you shouldn't speak your mind which

many of many people feel inhibited like

that at work yes and I think that's

quite right remember I made a

distinction between what the things that

you can change and the things you can't

change and have to adjust to and I think

a an atmosphere of fear at work is may

be something you can't change the

question is hey why let them dictate how

you feel why don't you take control over

your inner life how you feel at

work yes I there two things there you

don't let others control the way you

feel um and also this sort of Serenity

Prayer essentially you've mentioned

quite a few times to control and and be

be able to control what you can but to

let go what what you can't um and

Antonio says thank you so much for such

a brilliant and inspiring talk it's a

joy listening to you live I'd like to

ask um with so very interesting again

something you address in the book with

so many training and leadership

development programs around the world

and on the web why disengagement and

burnout and mounting and still so many

bad and low empathetic great leaders

around in organizations and

outside uh there is a plethora of ways

to train in emotional intelligence as I

said I have my own there are many many

however I think that the portion of

people who go through such programs is

quite small relative to the portion of

people who are suffering from the larger

forces at work that create alienation

that create

disenchantment uh that um make it

difficult for people in many many ways

and many organizations pay no attention

to emotional intelligence in who they

promote who they hire that's a reality

and as I said you we adjust to the

reality that we have to and we take

control over our inner

life um kmen asks Daniel how best to

cultivate emotional intelligence in

younger generations and in

children I've been a champion for years

of what we call social emotional

learning uh there's a website

c.org uh which is

uh says what the best programs look like

and I advocate seal but it needs to be

implemented well it turns out and I

wouldn't say to a a school system I

think in the UK you have a uniform

system uh I believe anyway many nations

do I don't think it works to just tell

teachers or administrators you've got to

do this it's better if people adopt it

because they believe in it because it

helps them many teachers in schools

where there are successful seal programs

are happy because kids are better

behaved in the class so it's easier for

them to teach what they need to teach

but I think that it should come from

within not be imposed from

without um hannaman I hope I've

pronounced your name right hannahan Das

from godic says how did the Indian Saint

neim Koli Baba influence your thinking

on optimal living if indeed it did and

how can we use optimal living to reduce

violence in the world so um Anand Das

must be a kind of Insider uh when I was

in India I was with a an amazing uh

teacher an old Yogi named Nim CI Baba uh

who was fantastic he was more than

empathic and more than uh Center he kind

like a paragon of emotional intelligence

but he's a rarity and so so the question

is how can we spread that capacity that

is why I wrote the book optimal I think

it's important to meet people where they

are and to take them from where they are

to where they can be and that's what

we're trying to do in the book

optimal how how would you Advocate

people listening to spread this spread

the word apart from of course telling

them to read your book other ways of of

spreading this idea into the world I

think the most most powerful way is to

model it yeah use it

yourself um Marie asks if you have

recommendations um on how to boost

emotional intelligence if living with

and and I think you know two separate

things but autism uh and CPM

TSD this is a very profound question uh

and I don't really know the answer but

it may lay in

workarounds uh in overcoming

whatever uh neural deficit a person may

have and finding a way to manage

relationships uh well uh that don't

depend on those

capacities because um one of our

listeners has missed this and because I

think it is hugely important so simple

but so important I might ask you to

repeat it for their benefit and for all

of ours which is um somebody says I

missed the mental exercise for training

the Mind simple but effective and just

before we come to the next question

perhaps we could all just uh remind

ourselves of

that it's very simple it's the mental

equivalent of going to the gym and

strengthening a muscle it strengthens

the neural circuitry for paying

attention and you can use your breath uh

as a focus so you start by being in a

place where you're not going to be

disturbed turn your phone off and uh pay

full attention to the in breath and full

attention to the out breath and the

pause between and then the next

breath and when your mind wanders off

and it's certain to notice that it

wandered and bring it back to the breath

and start again with the next breath

it's very simple that's the full

instruction of course many people who

start this say I just can't do it

because my mind wanders everywhere I'm

crazy my mind is just nuts but

everyone's mind is what you're doing is

training your mind to pay full attention

when you want it to uh and the benefits

of that happen slowly gradually and

inevitably start with five minutes if

that's all you can spare and then work

up to a longer time do it once a day uh

and the benefits will acre in the rest

of your day well I feel instantly

relaxed and Cala just doing it now but I

that probably is not optimal for your

interviewer so I I need to uh be in a

much more alert state name says um hi

Daniel do you think the AI will be able

to identify excellence and emotional

intelligence in Recruitment and if so

how a recruitment is very tricky because

people always want to look their best

when they're going for a job I think the

uh best way the best information you can

get about a person thinking of hiring is

to ask people confidentially who have

worked with them uh but this is not

always possible so I don't know that AI

will be any better than a human

interviewer uh at something that's quite

difficult you just then I actually

mentioned something I think again is so

interesting in the book which is the

difference between the calm the

importance of staying calm and

self-aware and managing your emotions

but also the sense that you need a

certain amount of good stress and

adrenaline uh to keep you going and for

example people might relate

to uh a feeling that their optimal state

is one in which they are quite wired and

sort of their their body is quite

stressed in a certain way where's the

balance in that well first of all

recognize there are huge individual

differences Yeah in our nervous system I

was talking to a guy who used to be a

jet fighter pilot

and he said you know uh our reaction

time has to be in the top 99th

percentile or or we don't get the job

and we run on

adrenaline those are fighter pilots

that's a rare thing a lot of people uh

make a a common mistake which is to

assume that you need to be in a wired

state to do well which I really I would

challenge the question is are you

focused maybe you depend on getting

wired to focus but can you learn to be

calm and focused uh so you can think

more clearly when you're calm and that

exercise I just showed does two things

nly one is it sharpens attention the

other is the same circuitry calms you

down so you become calm and clear I

would argue that people can do very very

well uh if they're calm and clear and

may not have to be wired all the time

because being wired all the time is not

good for you physiologically it's not

good for you in the rest of life so what

are you

sacrificing uh in order to stay wired

all the time to have

calm and to be calm and clear as you as

you say to find tranquility and Clarity

Focus would you say it's important you

you mentioned turning off your phone

when you're doing this particular

exercise but to be in that optimal State

even with others is it advisable to try

and minimize all distractions Music

phone uh digital do do you need is that

a is that an important Focus for for

optimization for being optimal I I think

that's important for the practice uh but

you bring it to life and life is full of

phones and noise and distractions yes

exactly so it's about being able to find

that with all the distractions of life

and that's the concentration you need

presumably for example if you're with

someone else are you really focusing on

that person or are you distracted by

whatever is going on around you that

person wants to feel felt that person

wants to feel that they're listen to

that they're heard and that demands that

you focus on them not on the

distractions and you say that

multitasking is a myth so also in terms

of uh being you know living uh optimally

as you would Advocate it's better to

focus on one task at a time I say

multitasking is a myth because although

people feel they do things

simultaneously the brain doesn't work

that way it does one thing at a time uh

attention is a defined capacity we can

pay attention here or there or there we

can switch very

rapidly uh but if you're uh very

interesting if you do this exercise the

breath exercise and develop a focus uh

and then you go to work say and your

focus is very good on what you're doing

then you get distracted on my email or

they pinging me or whatever and then you

go then you end up you know uh Doom

scrolling on on your phone and then you

go back to that task your attention is

now much lower much less and you need to

ramp it up uh however if you practiced

an attention strengthener that I describ

cribe uh you are much

less

uh de atttention if you will yeah and

get back to full focus more quickly

you're much less thrown by things that

would otherwise throw you uh our time is

very sadly up um I reiterate um our

audience's reactions to say it was a a

huge pleasure listening to your wisdom

hearing your wisdom Gathering your

wisdom uh we're very grateful to you for

that uh thank you so much if you've um

signed into this you can of course um

watch the video back or you if you

missed anything uh you can recommend it

to friends and at some stage in the

future we will also be releasing the

conversation as a podcast um but for now

thank you very much indeed to all who

signed in and Daniel thank you so much

to you honor my pleasure thank you for

having

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me