From the Poker Table to the Trading Floor: Inside the Mind of Wall Street Traders | WSJ

Summary

In this Wall Street Journal feature, Susquehanna International Group highlights the parallels between poker and trading, using the card game to train its traders. The discussion with Todd Simpkin and Jeremy Ween delves into risk management, decision-making under uncertainty, and the importance of understanding outcomes versus decisions. They explore the psychological aspects of both poker and trading, such as managing ego, reading opponents, and learning from both wins and losses, emphasizing the value of these skills in navigating the unpredictable nature of financial markets.

Takeaways

• 🃏 Poker and trading share similarities such as risk management, understanding outcomes, and making decisions with incomplete information.
• 💼 Susquehanna International Group uses poker as a training tool for its traders to develop skills like risk assessment and decision-making under uncertainty.
• 🚫 It's crucial for traders to be comfortable with the variance in outcomes, as both success and failure can occur even with the right decisions.
• 🎓 Learning poker can instill patience and risk management, which are valuable traits for traders, especially when dealing with market volatility.
• 🔄 The concept of 'bankroll management' in poker, akin to capital management in trading, emphasizes not risking more than you can afford to lose.
• 🃅 Bet sizing in poker parallels trade sizing in investing, where the amount at risk should be proportionate to the potential reward and the trader's overall capital.
• 🤔 Traders must often 'read the market' much like poker players 'read' their opponents, requiring the interpretation of actions and the construction of likely scenarios.
• 🚫 Rookie investors often incorrectly assume that current market conditions will persist, leading to risky decisions based on short-term trends.
• 🕵️‍♂️ The ability to critically evaluate one's own performance, rather than attributing outcomes to luck, is key to improvement in both poker and trading.
• 💬 Ego can be a hindrance in poker as overconfidence may lead to underestimating opponents and missing key information that could change the game's outcome.
• 🎰 Both poker and trading involve navigating incomplete information, but the key is to make the best decisions possible with the information at hand.

Q & A

Why do traders and investors often compare poker to investing?

Traders and investors compare poker to investing because both involve risk-taking and decision-making under uncertainty. The game of poker can teach valuable lessons about managing risk, patience, and the distinction between making the right decision and having the right outcome.

How does Susquehanna International Group use poker to train its traders?

Susquehanna International Group uses poker to train its traders by highlighting the parallels between the game and trading, such as the importance of making decisions with incomplete information, managing risk, and understanding the variance in outcomes.

What is the significance of making the right decision versus having the right outcome in both poker and trading?

In poker and trading, making the right decision is crucial because it is based on strategy and risk assessment, whereas the right outcome is not always guaranteed due to the element of chance. It's important to be comfortable with the variance in outcomes and to make positive expectancy decisions.

How does poker help in developing patience and risk management skills?

Poker helps in developing patience by requiring players to wait for favorable conditions before making big moves. It also teaches risk management by forcing players to assess the potential rewards against the risks they are taking with each hand they play.

What is the concept of 'variance in outcomes' mentioned in the script?

The concept of 'variance in outcomes' refers to the fluctuation in results that can occur even when the same decisions are made. In poker and trading, even the best decisions can sometimes lead to losses due to bad luck or market volatility, while poor decisions can occasionally result in wins.

How does the strategy of betting in poker relate to trade sizing in investing?

The strategy of betting in poker relates to trade sizing in investing in that both require an understanding of risk versus reward. Just as a poker player must decide how much to bet based on their hand and the potential payoff, an investor must decide the size of their trade based on the potential profit and the risk they are willing to take.

What role does ego play at the poker table according to the discussion?

Ego can be a significant factor at the poker table. Players with big egos might undervalue their opponents and take unnecessary risks, potentially providing opportunities for more cautious players. However, they may also be less likely to fold, even when they should, which can be a disadvantage.

What is the importance of humility in poker and trading?

Humility is important in poker and trading because it allows individuals to critically evaluate their skills and decisions. Those who lack humility may miss important information or fail to learn from their mistakes, which can lead to poor performance over time.

How does the concept of 'bad beats' in poker relate to making excuses in trading?

The concept of 'bad beats' in poker is analogous to making excuses in trading. Players who focus on bad beats instead of their own strategy and decision-making may not improve, just as traders who make excuses for losses instead of analyzing their approach may not learn and grow.

What is the significance of the statement 'If we don't take risks, we don't make money' in the context of the discussion?

The statement emphasizes the inherent need for risk-taking in both poker and trading to achieve financial success. However, it also implies the importance of taking calculated risks at the appropriate price, ensuring that the potential reward justifies the risk being taken.

How does the discussion relate poker skills to decision-making in incomplete information scenarios?

The discussion relates poker skills to decision-making in incomplete information scenarios by highlighting how poker players must navigate uncertainty and make the best decisions with the information they have, similar to how traders must operate with incomplete market data.

Outlines

00:00

🃏 Poker and Trading Parallels

The paragraph discusses the similarities between poker and trading, emphasizing the importance of risk-taking in both fields. It introduces Susquehanna International Group, a trading firm that uses poker to train its traders. Todd Simpkin, a Susquehanna executive, and Jeremy Wein, a poker player and capital management founder, engage in a Texas hold 'em game to illustrate these parallels. The conversation highlights how making the right decisions in poker and trading does not always guarantee a win due to the inherent variance in outcomes. The game serves as a metaphor for understanding risk management and the patience required in trading, as poker teaches these skills effectively. The discussion also touches on how people's behavior in poker, such as chasing losses, mirrors that in the market.

05:00

📊 Risk Management and Decision Making

This section delves deeper into the strategic aspects of poker and trading, focusing on risk management and decision-making under uncertainty. It draws a comparison between betting in poker and trade sizing in the financial markets, stressing the importance of not risking one's entire capital on a single outcome. The conversation also addresses the psychological aspect of playing poker and trading, such as the impact of ego and the need for humility to learn from both wins and losses. The participants discuss how to handle situations where one must make decisions with incomplete information, akin to real-world trading scenarios. The paragraph concludes with the idea that good players in both poker and trading are those who consistently make positive expectancy decisions, despite the inherent randomness and variance in outcomes.

10:05

🎰 Navigating Incomplete Information

The paragraph explores the concept of incomplete information in both poker and event contracting markets, such as predicting Taylor Swift's success on Spotify. It discusses how, despite the lack of full information, one can make educated decisions based on available data. The conversation highlights the importance of evaluating common information, such as public performance metrics and historical data, to make informed bets. The participants also touch upon the differences between poker and event contracting, noting that in the latter, there is less likelihood of someone having a significant non-public information advantage. The discussion underscores the importance of making the best decisions with the information available and managing one's bankroll effectively.

15:05

🤔 Psychological Factors in Poker Strategy

In this final paragraph, the focus shifts to the psychological factors at play in poker, such as reading opponents and managing one's own image at the table. The discussion includes strategies for playing with a short stack and the importance of taking calculated risks even when facing potential losses. The participants share personal experiences and insights on how to capitalize on one's perceived image and the psychology behind making bold moves in tournaments. The conversation concludes with a reflection on the importance of recognizing when to bluff and when to play it safe, based on the dynamics of the game and the behavior of other players.

Keywords

💡Risk taking

Risk taking is the act of making decisions where the outcome is uncertain, but has the potential for significant reward. In the context of the video, risk taking is central to both poker and trading. The video emphasizes that successful traders and poker players must be comfortable with the inherent uncertainty and variance in outcomes. For instance, Susquehanna International Group uses poker to train its traders, highlighting the importance of risk assessment and decision-making under uncertainty.

💡Poker

Poker is a card game that involves strategy, psychology, and risk management. In the video, poker is used as an analogy for trading, where players must make calculated decisions based on incomplete information. The game is mentioned as a tool for teaching traders about patience, risk management, and the distinction between making the right decision and achieving the right outcome, as exemplified by Todd Simpkin and Jeremy Ween's discussion on the game's strategic parallels with trading.

💡Trading

Trading refers to the act of buying and selling financial instruments, such as stocks, currencies, or commodities, with the goal of making a profit. The video discusses how trading firms like Susquehanna International Group use poker to train their traders, drawing parallels between the risk assessment and decision-making processes in both domains. Trading is depicted as an activity that requires managing risk and understanding the variance in outcomes, much like poker.

💡Variance

Variance in this context refers to the fluctuation or variability in outcomes, which is a key concept in both poker and trading. The video explains that traders and poker players must be comfortable with the variance in their outcomes, meaning they understand that even the best decisions can sometimes lead to losses, and poor decisions can occasionally result in wins. This concept is crucial for managing expectations and maintaining a long-term perspective.

💡Risk management

Risk management is the process of identifying, evaluating, and mitigating uncertainties in investment decisions. In the video, risk management is highlighted as a critical skill that poker can teach, which is transferable to trading. It involves understanding how much risk to take on in different positions and adjusting strategies accordingly, as discussed by Jeremy Ween when he talks about his first poker experience and its impact on his trading approach.

💡No limit Texas hold 'em

No limit Texas hold 'em is a variant of the poker game where players can bet and raise as much as they like during their betting phase, making it a high-stakes version of the game. The video uses this format to demonstrate the high-risk, high-reward nature of poker, which mirrors the trading environment. The game is played between Todd Simpkin and Jeremy Ween to illustrate the concepts discussed, such as bet sizing and risk assessment.

💡Patience

Patience is the ability to wait calmly or steadily for something to happen, which is a virtue in both poker and trading. The video script mentions that poker taught Jeremy Ween patience, a trait that is beneficial in trading as well. In the context of the video, patience is associated with waiting for the right opportunities to make moves, whether in poker hands or trading decisions.

💡Blinds

Blinds in poker are forced bets posted by players before the hand is dealt, designed to stimulate action. In the video, the concept of blinds is mentioned in the context of poker strategy, but it also serves as a metaphor for the mandatory risks that traders must take in the market. The discussion implies that, like in poker, traders must be strategic about when and how much to commit in the market.

💡Flop

The flop in poker refers to the first three community cards that are dealt face up in the game. It is a critical point in the game where players assess the strength of their hands. In the video, the flop is used as a moment to discuss decision-making and information assessment in poker, which is analogous to evaluating market conditions in trading.

💡Tells

Tells in poker are signs or behaviors that reveal a player's hand or their intentions. The video discusses how observing opponents' reactions to the flop can provide insights into their hands. In trading, the equivalent might be recognizing patterns or signals that indicate market sentiment or potential movements, although the video notes that in event contracts, unlike poker, there are fewer instances of having access to private information that could act as a tell.

💡Ego

Ego in the context of the video refers to overconfidence or an inflated sense of self-importance, which can lead to poor decision-making. The video suggests that players with big egos may undervalue their opponents, providing opportunities for more humble players to capitalize. In trading, managing one's ego is crucial to avoid overconfidence and to make rational, data-driven decisions.

Highlights

Risk-taking is essential for making money in trading and investing.

Poker is used to train traders at Susquehanna International Group.

Poker teaches the difference between making the right decision and having the right outcome.

Risk management is a key lesson from poker that translates to trading.

Poker can teach patience and strategic thinking.

Chasing losses is a common mistake in both poker and trading.

Comparing poker strategy to buying inexpensive options in trading.

Bet sizing in poker is analogous to trade sizing in trading.

The importance of not risking more than you can afford to lose.

Poker helps in understanding difficult decisions under uncertainty.

The value of information and its quality in both poker and trading.

How to evaluate skills and improve in poker and trading.

The dangers of assuming current market conditions will persist.

The impact of self-serving bias and the Dunning-Kruger effect on evaluating skills.

The role of ego and humility in poker and trading success.

Navigating incomplete information in event contracts similar to poker.

The cultural emphasis on risk-taking at Susquehanna.

The importance of making positive expectancy decisions in trading.

Applying the poker framework to different markets, including sports gambling.

The psychological aspect of reading opponents in poker.

The significance of image building and capitalizing on it in poker tournaments.

Learning to take calculated risks when short on stack in poker tournaments.

The realization that big stack doesn't always mean advantage in poker.

Transcripts

We are inherently risk takers.

If we don't take risks,

we don't make money.

In my seven years reporting for the Wall Street Journal,

countless traders and investors have brought up the game of poker telling me that

the game has actually taught them a lot about investing one of the biggest and most

successful trading firms out there.

Susquehanna International Group actually uses the game to train its

traders.

Yeah,

I know.

So this year I decided to learn the game and invited Susquehanna executive

Todd Simpkin.

Thanks for having us and Jeremy Ween,

founder of Moot Point,

capital management and a long time poker player,

Jeremy Wein is your champion to the Wall Street Journal studios to play a

game of no limit.

Texas hold em.

The only thing at stake was our pride.

So let's get started.

Susquehanna uses poker to train its traders.

Tell me a little bit about that.

There are a lot of parallels between poker and trading.

There's the difference between making the right decision and having the right outcome.

So even if you made the right decision,

sometimes you lose and sometimes you make the wrong decision and win both happen at the poker table and in trading,

you have to get comfortable with the variance in your outcomes.

Poker has helped you think about risk and how much risk to take in certain

positions when you're trading.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

I mean,

poker came first for me.

It taught me patience because I was not a patient child and risk management.

The very first hand of poker that I ever played in no limit in college.

I had pocket two s which is,

I was like,

oh my God,

I got a pair.

I thought that was so good.

When we perceive ourselves as being in the losses,

we are willing to,

to do riskier things to get back to even.

You'll see the same thing in the market where,

where people will chase losses because they're in the,

in the mindset of being in the losses and want to get back 100 more

that 150 I will fold.

And this is like a 32nd comment on this hand if that is.

So this would be in my view,

the equivalent of buying a really inexpensive option.

I was already in for 50.

You raise it 100 more in the context of our stacks.

That's not a lot.

If I hit my set.

If I hit another three,

it's unlikely.

But if I do more than likely I'm going to win.

Not just the pot,

but probably a big pot or at least,

at least something more than that.

And if I don't,

it's just very easy for me to fold.

And so,

you know,

whether it's in an index or in a stock or a currency or whatever,

you buy a really low,

a low delta,

low premium option.

Um you know,

again,

spend a little premium,

that's your max loss.

But if things go your way,

you can really make a lot.

I like how you put that and an inexpensive option.

This is what I had.

Yeah.

So it was good.

That was a good buff.

I thought you were ahead of me.

Raise a 375.

I might have an exciting hand here for the first 375

check in the race six morning.

So I have hock and kings there.

And so my,

that's the kind of hand I thought you had.

So my thought process was that first of all,

if you have a hand like pocket tens or jack or queens and we get a low flop,

I'll get more from you.

The flop is this which players use to gauge the strength of their hands?

And also if I re raise there and you have a hand like ace queen and you call and an ace comes on the flop,

I probably have to fold.

Maybe I pay one small bet.

And so again,

this is kind of a risk reward perspective,

you know,

kind of concept is let me keep this quick call,

pot control.

Let me keep the pot a little smaller and see what happens.

Are there parallels between bet sizing and trade sizing?

To me,

this is like the two most important things,

especially between tournament poker and,

and,

and,

uh,

and trading our patients and bet sizing.

Right.

And you know,

if you've got pocket aces,

you don't want to have your life savings at risk a 4 to 1 favor because one out of five times you're bankrupt.

And the same thing goes in trading,

you can,

there could be a great trade,

but I promise you can always go to a warps scene level.

And so you want to make sure that,

you know,

that you're not in a position where if it moves against you more than you think that you

are,

you know,

stopped out,

you know,

blowing up whatever you want to call it where,

you know,

where you're done.

If I were to join as a new trader tomorrow,

fresh out of college,

what would I go?

One?

We'd love to have you.

We spend a lot of time talking about the basics of poker,

but importantly,

in a situation like this,

we would get to a point where you might have a difficult decision and we'll stop and talk about all the

things that would factor into that decision.

But frequently what we have to do in trading and what we have to do in poker is put somebody on a

hand or put them on a distribution of hands,

try to figure out what they might be thinking what given the actions that they've taken.

So,

if you were to check here,

um,

and then I bet.

What,

what have you learned about what I have if you bet and I raise,

you learn something very different about what I have.

Um,

and we talk about kind of the value of the information and the quality of the information that you get in a poker

hand and,

and in trading.

And there's certainly some things that are very different in trading and in poker,

it's not a perfect model,

but it's a very good model for making decisions wither information.

If someone's not a good poker player,

are they fired?

No.

Um,

being a good poker player is a constellation of skills and what we wanna talk about are

how to improve the skills where they're deficient and how to take advantage of the skills,

uh where they're strong to make sure that they,

uh they continue to hone those check.

Uh I'll bet 100 and 25 on call

225.

What are the biggest mistakes?

You see,

rookie investors making one of the dangerous things?

And Jeremy alluded to this earlier is assuming that whatever the current state of the world is,

is going to be the future state of the world that we're going to continue seeing.

Well,

what we've seen with every basis trade that has that has blown up in the history of the markets.

Right.

You know,

you don't have to go back terribly far to get to the

financial meltdown in the late in the late aughts to see,

you know,

the trades between credit default swaps and,

uh,

and underlying bond prices,

which would normally move within maybe two basis points and you would fade the move if it got to five

basis points and then it blew out to 304 105 100 basis points.

It was like this is not a normal situation and it is entirely because too many people

thought that that the tie between these two assets could not be broken

about 50.

And what about in poker?

Because there is so much noise in poker,

it's really easy to walk away and say that I don't have enough skills to be able to evaluate

how well I played when I won.

I must be really good.

I should keep doing what I was doing.

And when I lose,

it's because I got unlucky.

Like,

you know,

I can't believe,

you know,

if that club hadn't come,

I wouldn't have lost all my chips.

Like,

well,

you didn't have to lose all your chips.

You only lost it because you put in the call after that club game,

right?

So the combination of the self serving bias and dunning Kruger effect,

I think leads people to,

to not do a good job of critically evaluating their their skills.

150 they're the best players in the world spend

the most time,

you know,

analyzing their hands and not just because that's how they're improving,

but they're predisposed to know that they might be doing things wrong and,

and,

and,

and want to improve that and,

and think about that where it's like the person who just like,

plays casually and they're sitting at the end of the bar telling about their bad beat,

they're just less likely to,

as I said,

you know,

less likely to think that that was the reason I love being at a table with people who are talking about their bad beats.

That's,

it's such a great indication that,

that they are not going to take the feedback appropriately from the table.

What do you mean by that?

So if they're talking about their bed beats,

they're saying here's how unlucky I got as opposed to,

you know,

maybe I made a mistake.

They don't have the humility and for the introspection to say,

you know,

uh I'll bet 500 to say here,

here's the feedback from the marketplace that,

that I was not playing as well as I could have been playing.

It's not a good use of time because even if they,

they probably did get a bad beat,

they probably did get unlucky.

It happens,

it happens every single time you sit on a table.

Uh it's just not gonna,

it's not gonna benefit you in any way 2000.

Do you want to hear about my bad beep?

How do you think about ego at the poker table?

If someone lacks humility,

they are going to miss important information.

I love playing with the big ego player.

They are going to undervalue you and like,

and,

and I want to be undervalued.

So I really like it when someone thinks that they can push you around because thinking that they can push you around is

going to expose themselves at times when you want to get more chips in.

But you also have to be careful because someone,

you know,

that person may be less likely to fold,

even if you,

you know,

think that they're bluffing or you have a,

you know,

a pretty good hand,

you may not wanna,

you know,

re raise them because they may go all in.

And so just to be careful with those people and,

and again,

if you're taking that information and you're making use of it,

you're doing,

you know,

you're doing the right thing and making use of it doesn't necessarily mean that,

that you'll be able to take advantage of it right away or,

or,

or that you have to,

that you'll be more aggressive,

one more path of it.

It just depends on right.

It does mean that,

that you have an opportunity to change the way you play against that person.

And anytime I have an opportunity to play differently,

it's because there's an advantage to playing differently.

And I like that.

Turn over a bluff,

please recheck your cards and throw on a bet.

Let's just say a bluff.

You're bluffing with the best hand.

It comes from some sort of cultural underpinnings of the firm,

which is that we are inherently risk takers at the end of the day.

If we don't take risk,

we don't make money.

It is really easy to play poker and in,

in a game without a rake,

in a game without blinds,

it's really easy to play a poker and never lose,

which is that you never play a hand,

right?

But that is not a really good way to win at playing poker.

So we are inherently risk takers and importantly,

in order for us to take risk,

we have to take risk at the appropriate price,

whether we're long or short,

we have to be buying it under its fair value,

it's expected value or selling it over its expected value.

And the other thing that really comes out of poker is that in any single session and certainly

in any single hand,

it is not going to necessarily be the best player that won that hand,

right?

It is entirely,

almost entirely down to the quality of the cards that you have on a single hand.

There's a little bit that's not in the quality of the cards,

but for the most part,

it's the cards.

So then over the length of a session,

the cards kind of even out over time.

But even then you,

it's the variance that comes from the randomness of the way the cards turn out

over the course of a lifetime,

a career of playing.

It is certainly the case that good players come out ahead and bad players have lots of

excuses about bad beats that they've had lots of stories about why it's not their fault,

but they ended up not winning.

Our philosophy is to get our traders to make positive expectancy decisions where they're putting capital at risk

and getting inappropriate return on it.

And if we are good at doing the evaluation,

which is an important part and then good at managing the bank role on

when,

when there are big opportunities to,

to put capital at risk,

then we're going to come out ahead and are you using that framework in all the different markets

that you guys are at?

I know you are providing odds to sports books and applying for sports gambling

licenses.

Um We've talked about how you entered the event contract market.

Is that the same framework for every market or does it vary?

It is absolutely that framework and sometimes there are um

exogenous factors to that we have to consider,

you know,

we can lose,

you know,

X million dollars and that would have an impact on your solvency and your ability to support the markets that you

support.

So we want to make sure that you limit that Susquehanna has gotten into.

Yes or no bets.

And you know,

I think the most popular example is like yes or no.

Will Taylor Swift be the top artist on Spotify this year?

Yeah,

that's on,

on Calci.

We are providing liquidity on,

on Calci event contract,

binary event contract.

Well,

it's so interesting because we talk about poker and the reason it's some of these skills are

transferable is that it's a game where you have to navigate having incomplete information.

And that's a scenario where it seems like to me,

there's even more incomplete information than there typically is.

So how,

how do you navigate that?

So there is a lot of incomplete information,

but then just like in poker,

there's also a lot of common information.

It is not that hard to see how many concerts she has had

and how many,

yeah,

back out how many unique visitors you think there are to her concerts.

It's not that hard to uh uh to see video clips from the concert and see how many people are singing

along.

In order to sing along.

You have to have heard the song before,

in order to have heard it before,

you must have streamed this couple 100 times,

right?

So it's like,

ok,

we can start figuring out that given when she's released her albums or,

you know,

whatever it might be,

how many people uh have listened to it up to now,

which is again a publicly available figure.

And then we can look at who's expected to release albums over the course of the rest of the year,

how popular they've been historically,

how,

you know,

if they are touring,

you know,

kind of what their tours looks like.

So there's a lot of common information that's available as well.

One thing that,

that doesn't happen in the event space with the Taylor Swift being

number one on the on the charts that does happen in poker is that somebody else

has really relevant nonpublic information

and I'm not saying this in like an insider trading way but Taylor,

no,

no,

I'm saying there's not,

that doesn't happen in that market in that market.

It's not like somebody is sitting there saying I know that Ariana Grande is about to

drop a banger of an album that is guaranteed to be better than Taylor Swift.

That's so interesting.

Hadn't thought of that actually being an advantage rather than a disadvantage.

They are making the best decision that they can with the information that's available and they are doing

it in a way that is going to be efficient with their time.

So it could be that even though this is a fun contract to talk about

that,

the amount of money uh on either side of it on CCI is,

you know,

$8 and we don't want to invest in having somebody,

you know,

read through the lyrics to see if there's something in there that's gonna,

you know,

really give its staying power,

love it,

Jeremy.

When you're in tournaments.

Do you do the sunglasses?

The hat,

I,

I don't think sunglasses do anything.

Uh,

I don't want to be constant,

like reading someone's eyes.

I'm not a big fan of,

I,

I do wear a hoodie that I,

I pull up and at this point it is totally useless.

You probably haven't noticed this because you've been looking down at your cards.

But every time I've been in a hand with you,

I have not looked at the flop,

the flop will still be there after it comes.

I've watched you watch the flop.

I think that I'm going to get less information from Jeremy watching the flop because he's seen more

of them like he's just,

you know,

but I think that I'm going to see and this isn't,

this isn't an assault,

right?

Like this,

like I should be paying attention to the,

the idiosyncratic aspects of the people I'm playing with.

I think that you're more likely to give up information about how you feel about the flop

physically.

When you see it,

then Jeremy will.

So if the two of you were in a hand with me,

I'm gonna watch you and when I'm watching you,

I'm watching you watch the flop,

I get to see your reaction.

So like there are things that you end up being good at without knowing why you're good at them.

Um,

so like it could be that I pick up on something in the eyes and I don't even realize that it's in the

eyes.

But if I don't have that pathway,

then I can't,

I can't have made that decision.

To me.

It's,

it's not as much about,

kind of like quote unquote reading people when you think of that as physical tells as it is about psychology

and,

you know,

some things and for yourself,

I mean,

for me,

the biggest tournament strategy I have is building up a certain image for myself.

And then trying to capitalize on that.

Playing 10 to 20 big blind poker is so important.

You're almost never going to be able to win a tournament without at some point,

I,

you're almost never going to be able to,

to,

to it without being down to 15 or 20 blinds at some point.

And if you panic,

uh that's not good,

but you still have to be taking risks.

You're going to have to pick some spots to,

to,

to go all in and knowing that if you get called,

you will be behind.

Um,

you just have no choice when you,

when you're short of ST and,

and knowing how to do that and when to do that is its own skill.

And I can say personally,

that was a big step function up for me in,

in results.

When I really learned that right around 2017,

I was,

I think a decent poker player before that.

But my live tournament results just got a lot better after I really got better at that aspect of tournament

poker.

Um,

ok.

It's called,

ok,

ch,

and you can use that to your advantage too.

You think that the person with the bigger stack always has the advantage?

But they don't want to be there.

No,

we would have chopped,

we would have chopped.

We're both of a king.

Uh,

10,

9.

Uh,

but,

uh,

but I folded the all in on your,

uh,

on the last one was,

uh,

I was,

I want to know what you had a,

I had a queen jack suited around a big,

yeah,

I know.

But it really good.

Now,

if you wake up with a big hand and do it,

you're more to get called and,

yeah,

exactly.

Right.

Like,

like here,

here's where you're really hoping for pocket kings toward the end of the game.

I started picking up chips and feeling bold.

There are a lot of amateur players against whom I won't bluff because the bluff isn't going to do what I

wanted to do the sooner you realize that the better.

You are.

Cool.

Oh,

there's the kings though.

Yeah.

But my bold bet didn't pay off.

Ok.

I bet all of my chips and ended up losing to Todd who had a full house

that left me with nothing.

But what I learned,

of course,