Inside MI5 Espionage Documentary

Insightful Documentaries
11 Dec 201946:46

Summary

TLDRMI5, Britain's Security Service, has operated in the shadows for a century, safeguarding the nation from threats such as global terrorism and IRA attacks. This transcript reveals insights into the agency's history, including its response to 9/11, the handling of high-profile cases like the Gibraltar shootings, and the allegations of complicity in torture. It also discusses the impact of the service's actions on its reputation and the lessons learned from past operations, emphasizing the importance of understanding history to avoid repeating mistakes.

Takeaways

  • ๐Ÿ•ต๏ธโ€โ™‚๏ธ MI5's Role in History: MI5 has been a secret service for a hundred years, working behind the scenes to keep Britain safe from various threats, including global terrorism.
  • ๐ŸŽถ Evolution of Threats: The nature of threats has evolved over time, from the IRA bombings to the rise of al-Qaeda and the challenge of homegrown terrorism post-9/11.
  • ๐Ÿ” Counterterrorism Efforts: MI5 has been at the forefront of counterterrorism efforts, uncovering numerous plots and working to prevent attacks on British soil.
  • ๐Ÿš International Cooperation: MI5 has collaborated with international agencies, such as the CIA, to share intelligence and respond to global threats.
  • ๐Ÿ“š Unprecedented Access: Professor Christopher Andrew was given unprecedented access to MI5 files to write its authorized history, revealing both successes and failures.
  • ๐ŸŽฅ Media Portrayal vs. Reality: The script dispels myths about MI5 and spy work, highlighting the teamwork and extensive resources required in real-life intelligence operations.
  • ๐Ÿค Double Agents and Deception: MI5's use of double agents, such as Juan Pujol (codenamed Garbo), played a crucial role in deceiving enemies during WWII.
  • ๐Ÿ˜ท Alleged Complicity in Torture: MI5 has faced allegations of complicity in torture, which contradicts its established ethos and the belief that information gained under torture is unreliable.
  • ๐ŸŽฉ The Cambridge Spies: The script discusses the infamous Cambridge Spies, who infiltrated British intelligence and passed on valuable information to the Soviet Union.
  • ๐Ÿ›๏ธ Gibraltar Incident: The controversial shooting of three IRA members in Gibraltar by the SAS, in which MI5 was involved, led to questions about the use of lethal force and the 'shoot-to-kill' policy.
  • ๐Ÿ“ˆ MI5's Expansion and Budget: Post-9/11, MI5 doubled in size and its budget increased to hundreds of millions, reflecting the heightened importance of intelligence and counterterrorism work.

Q & A

  • How has MI5 evolved over the years in response to changing threats?

    -MI5 has adapted to emerging threats by changing its focus and doubling in size after 9/11, increasing its budget into the hundreds of millions and employing nearly 3,800 people. It has also evolved its methods and priorities, shifting from counter-espionage to counter-terrorism, particularly in response to the rise of global terrorism and the IRA's campaign of violence.

  • What was the significance of the 7/7 attacks to MI5?

    -The 7/7 attacks marked a turning point for MI5 as they highlighted the threat of homegrown terrorism and the need to focus on preventing domestic terrorism. The attacks also led to MI5 being criticized for not identifying and stopping the bombers, which emphasized the challenge of managing limited resources against a growing number of potential threats.

  • How did MI5 handle the threat of the Provisional IRA in the 1980s?

    -MI5 took the lead intelligence role against the Provisional IRA, particularly in Gibraltar. This culminated in Operation Flavius, where an MI5 surveillance team worked with Spanish police, leading to the controversial shooting of three IRA members by the SAS. The incident led to MI5 facing allegations of a shoot-to-kill policy.

  • What was the role of Anthony Blunt in MI5 during World War II?

    -Anthony Blunt was an MI5 officer who simultaneously reported to Winston Churchill and Joseph Stalin due to his role as a Soviet spy. He passed on numerous documents, including information about the Enigma machine, to his Soviet handlers, which could have potentially changed the course of the war if the Germans had acted on this intelligence.

  • How did the Cambridge spies infiltrate British intelligence?

    -The Cambridge spies, including Donald MacLean, John Cairncross, and Kim Philby, exploited their positions in the British establishment and their intellectual connections to infiltrate British intelligence. Their network, known as the Magnificent Five, caused significant damage by passing on sensitive information to the KGB.

  • What was the impact of Peter Wright's allegations against Sir Roger Hollis?

    -Peter Wright's allegations that Sir Roger Hollis was a Soviet mole led to a damaging conspiracy theory within MI5 and the wider intelligence community. Wright's obsession with this theory, which was unsubstantiated, caused internal strife and public embarrassment for the British government when he published his claims in his book 'Spycatcher'.

  • How did MI5 handle the threat of al-Qaeda post-9/11?

    -Post-9/11, MI5 shifted its focus to countering the threat of al-Qaeda and global terrorism. This included monitoring known terrorists, foiling plots, and adapting to new forms of terrorism such as homegrown suicide bombings, which were highlighted by the 7/7 attacks in London.

  • What was the significance of the Gibraltar shootings in 1988 for MI5?

    -The Gibraltar shootings in 1988 were significant for MI5 as they led to allegations of a shoot-to-kill policy and damage to MI5's reputation. The incident also marked a turning point in the fight against the IRA, leading to MI5 taking a more central role in counterterrorism efforts.

  • What was the role of Juan Pujol, codenamed Garbo, in World War II?

    -Juan Pujol, codenamed Garbo, was MI5's most successful double-cross agent during World War II. He helped fool the Germans into believing the D-Day landings would occur at Pas de Calais instead of Normandy, contributing to the success of the Allied invasion.

  • What was the outcome of the IRA mortar attack on 10 Downing Street?

    -The IRA mortar attack on 10 Downing Street was a near-success in terms of causing significant harm, but ultimately failed due to the proximity of the mortar's landing point to the cabinet room. The attack led to MI5 taking over the lead intelligence role against the IRA on the British mainland.

  • What is the ethos of MI5 regarding the treatment of captured agents?

    -MI5 has historically maintained an ethos that information gained under torture is unreliable. During World War II, German agents were interrogated without physical abuse, reflecting a belief that beating a prisoner does not produce reliable information.

Outlines

00:00

๐Ÿ” Opening MI5's Secret Files

This segment introduces the secretive world of MI5, Britain's internal security service, which has historically operated behind the scenes to keep the country safe from threats like global terrorism. For the first time, MI5 opens its archives, revealing its role in preventing attacks and the mysteries surrounding its operations, such as alleged plots against the Prime Minister and the claim of a trade union leader being a KGB agent. The narrative highlights significant moments like the response to 9/11 and delves into the personal experiences of MI5's leaders, underscoring the agency's evolution in the face of changing global threats.

05:02

๐Ÿ“˜ MI5's Evolution and Public Scrutiny

This paragraph delves into MI5's growth and challenges over the years. With a significant budget and workforce, MI5's efforts in intelligence gathering are monumental, yet shrouded in secrecy. The story of Professor Christopher Andrew, tasked with writing MI5's authorized history, exemplifies the balance between transparency and secrecy. Through his extensive research, Andrew uncovered truths and myths surrounding MI5, contributing to a more nuanced understanding of the agency. Despite MI5's efforts to demystify its operations, public and historical scrutiny remains, highlighting the complex relationship between national security and public transparency.

10:04

๐ŸŽ–๏ธ World War Efforts and Espionage

Focusing on MI5's role during the World Wars, this section underscores its strategic importance in counter-espionage and intelligence. Despite starting small, MI5's success against German spies during World War II is notable, particularly through Operation Double-Cross, which turned German agents into double agents. The narrative also touches on the agency's selective recruitment process and the effectiveness of its strategies, which significantly contributed to the Allied victory. Additionally, the revelation of internal breaches during the war adds a layer of complexity to MI5's history, showcasing the challenges of maintaining security within its ranks.

15:05

๐Ÿ•ต๏ธโ€โ™‚๏ธ The Cold War and Internal Betrayals

This section explores MI5's tumultuous experiences during the Cold War, including the notorious betrayal by Anthony Blunt and others within the British intelligence community. It highlights the intricate web of espionage, where MI5 agents simultaneously served Soviet interests, severely compromising national security. The narrative reflects on the challenges of vetting and the impact of ideological motivations on loyalty, demonstrating how deeply Soviet infiltration went and the long-term implications for British intelligence and political integrity.

20:08

๐Ÿšจ Controversy and Conspiracy Theories

Amidst a backdrop of internal and external threats, this paragraph sheds light on the paranoid atmosphere within MI5, fueled by figures like Peter Wright, who became obsessed with rooting out imagined Soviet moles. The segment also examines the impact of controversial figures and theories, such as the allegations against Sir Roger Hollis and Harold Wilson, on MI5's operations and reputation. These narratives illustrate the complex interplay of trust, suspicion, and political intrigue that has characterized MI5's history and challenged its effectiveness.

25:09

๐Ÿ”Ž Scrutiny and Scandal

This section reveals the scandalous involvement of British figures with Soviet intelligence, as evidenced by MI5's files. The shocking allegations against Jack Jones as a KGB agent and the broader implications for British politics and trade unions are explored. Despite the damaging potential of these revelations, the narrative also emphasizes the complexity of espionage and the difficulty in discerning truth from deception. This part of MI5's history showcases the deep entanglements between British and Soviet interests during the Cold War, leaving a lasting impact on public perception and trust.

30:09

๐Ÿ’ฃ The IRA Threat and MI5's Response

Highlighting MI5's role in countering the IRA's campaign of terror, this paragraph discusses the agency's strategic shifts and challenges. The narrative details the intricacies of operations like the controversial shooting in Gibraltar and the audacious attack on 10 Downing Street, illustrating MI5's central role in the British government's counterterrorism efforts. These events underscore the evolving nature of terrorist threats and MI5's adaptability in the face of such challenges, as well as the ethical and operational dilemmas encountered.

35:11

๐ŸŒ The New Age of Terrorism

This segment discusses MI5's confrontation with modern terrorism, particularly post-9/11 challenges posed by al-Qaeda and the emergence of homegrown threats. It reflects on MI5's initial underestimation of the Islamist terror threat and its subsequent efforts to adapt to this new form of warfare. The narrative also touches on the importance of intelligence sharing and international cooperation in combating terrorism, and the ongoing efforts to understand and mitigate the evolving threats.

Mindmap

Keywords

๐Ÿ’กMI5

MI5, the Security Service of the United Kingdom, is depicted as a clandestine agency tasked with ensuring national security, primarily through counter-espionage and counter-terrorism. Its role, evolving over a century, emphasizes adapting to threats ranging from global terrorism to domestic radicalization. The script showcases MI5's transition from dealing with wartime espionage to contemporary issues like 9/11 and the rise of al-Qaeda, highlighting its pivotal role in safeguarding Britain.

๐Ÿ’กGlobal Terrorism

Global terrorism is highlighted as a principal adversary in the modern world, presenting a significant challenge for MI5. The script underscores the agency's shift in focus following events like 9/11, which epitomized the international dimension of terrorism. MI5's engagement with global terrorism involves preventing attacks and dismantling networks, showcasing its frontline position in protecting national security against a complex, borderless threat.

๐Ÿ’กDouble-Cross System

The Double-Cross System, a British intelligence scheme during World War II, involved turning German spies into double agents. This strategy is celebrated in the script for its success in deceiving Nazi Germany about Allied invasion plans. It exemplifies MI5's innovative approaches to intelligence, leveraging espionage to mislead the enemy and significantly contributing to the war effort by ensuring the success of operations like D-Day.

๐Ÿ’กOperation Overt

Operation Overt, as discussed in the script, was a pivotal counter-terrorist operation by MI5 to thwart a plan to detonate liquid explosives aboard transatlantic flights. This operation highlights the complex nature of modern terrorist plots and MI5's capabilities in disrupting them. It underscores the extensive surveillance and intelligence work necessary to prevent potentially devastating attacks, demonstrating the agency's adaptability to evolving terrorist methodologies.

๐Ÿ’กSurveillance

Surveillance is a core component of MI5's operations, crucial for gathering intelligence on threats. The script details its use in monitoring potential terrorists and espionage agents, illustrating how surveillance techniques have been integral to thwarting attacks and espionage. It shows MI5's reliance on both physical surveillance and technological tools to keep abreast of threats, reflecting the balance between traditional methods and modern innovations in intelligence gathering.

๐Ÿ’กEspionage

Espionage is a recurring theme, initially focusing on MI5's counter-espionage efforts during the world wars and Cold War, combating spies within Britain. The script delves into notorious cases of betrayal, like those of the Cambridge Five, highlighting the perennial threat of internal espionage. This context underlines the importance of vigilance and internal security within national intelligence operations.

๐Ÿ’กIRA

The Irish Republican Army (IRA) is depicted as a domestic terrorist threat that MI5 has combated, particularly during the Troubles in Northern Ireland. The script references MI5's role in operations like in Gibraltar, showing the agency's involvement in counterterrorism outside espionage. This illustrates the diversity of MI5's responsibilities in dealing with terrorism, both international and domestic, showcasing its adaptability to different forms of threats.

๐Ÿ’กCounter-Terrorism

Counter-terrorism emerges as a central MI5 function, especially in the wake of global threats like al-Qaeda and ISIS. The script illustrates MI5's transition to focusing on preventing terrorist attacks, emphasizing the strategic shift required to address the modern landscape of terrorism. It reflects the agency's proactive stance in identifying and neutralizing threats before they materialize, underscoring the preemptive nature of contemporary intelligence work.

๐Ÿ’กAl-Qaeda

Al-Qaeda is identified as a primary antagonist in the narrative, representing the quintessential global terrorist organization. The script mentions MI5's awareness of al-Qaeda prior to 9/11, highlighting the challenges in anticipating and countering the group's operations. This context emphasizes the complexity of the terrorist threat and the necessity for MI5 to adapt its strategies to confront evolving global networks.

๐Ÿ’กAuthorized History

The 'Authorized History' of MI5, as referenced, signifies the agency's decision to open its archives to an academic, allowing for a public account of its operations. This move, unprecedented for an intelligence agency, illustrates MI5's attempt to balance secrecy with public accountability. By shedding light on its past, MI5 aims to demystify its operations and address misconceptions, showcasing a shift towards greater transparency in intelligence work.

Highlights

MI5 has been a secret service working in the shadows for a hundred years, keeping Britain safe from threats like global terrorism.

MI5 has opened its files for the first time to reveal insights into secret operations and historical events, including allegations of plots against the Prime Minister.

Stephen Lander, head of MI5 during 9/11, speaks about the agency's role in countering global terrorism and the immediate response to the attacks.

Post-9/11, MI5 doubled in size and budget, focusing on uncovering terrorist plots to protect the UK from attacks like the 7/7 bombings.

MI5's files reveal the extent of their efforts in counter-terrorism, including the labor-intensive operation to thwart the 2006 liquid explosives plot.

The intelligence community's swift reaction to 9/11 included America's lockdown and cancellation of all transatlantic flights within 24 hours.

MI5's history of counter-espionage during World War II includes the successful Operation Double-Cross, which involved turning German spies into double agents.

The controversial case of Anthony Blunt, a Soviet spy within MI5, who passed on valuable intelligence to Stalin while reporting to Winston Churchill.

MI5 was penetrated by two of its own agents, Folkert van Koutrik and Jack Hooper, during World War II, who had previously worked for the Germans.

The allegations of a sixth mole in MI5, Sir Roger Hollis, were investigated but no concrete evidence of treason was found in the files.

The KGB had an operational file on Harold Wilson, a British Prime Minister, with hopes of recruiting him as an agent, but no evidence of successful recruitment was found.

Jack Jones, a respected trade union leader, was suspected of being a KGB agent, but his family disputes the claims based on the lack of solid evidence.

MI5's handling of the Gibraltar incident in 1988, where three unarmed IRA members were shot dead, led to controversy and allegations of a shoot-to-kill policy.

The IRA's mortar attack on 10 Downing Street in 1991 marked a turning point, leading to MI5 taking the lead intelligence role against the IRA on the British mainland.

MI5's role in facilitating back-channel conversations with the IRA, contrary to official policy, contributed to the peace process and the end of the Cold War.

The emergence of al-Qaida as a new adversary post-9/11 presented a significant challenge to MI5, as the threat shifted from foreign spies to homegrown terrorists.

MI5's ethos, established during World War II, emphasizes the importance of not torturing prisoners as the information obtained is unreliable.

The service's tradition of propriety and strong sense of right and wrong among its staff is considered a healthy and integral part of MI5's culture.

MI5's history shows a mixture of successes and failures, with the organization learning from past mistakes to better address future threats.

Transcripts

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for a hundred years

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mi5 has been a secret service working in

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the shadows its officers and agents kept

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Britain safe

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[Music]

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now the world is at war with global

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terrorism and we are all on the front

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line

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mi5 stands between us and horrors like

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7/7 but luma and intrigue surrounded

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secret operations

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[Music]

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so now for the first time mi5 has opened

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its files and we can discover more about

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the allegations that they've plotted

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against the Prime Minister or that a

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famous trade union leader was a KGB

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agent and why three terrorists were shot

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dead in Gibraltar

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[Music]

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[Music]

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our private secretary so I gotta head

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round the door and said I think

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something you need to see on the

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television

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so Steven Lander was head of mi5 when

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9/11 changed the world he has never

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spoken on television about the atrocity

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nor his role as one of those leading the

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counter attack against global terrorism

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as we were standing looking at the

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smoking tower it's pretty obvious to us

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that this was our kinda and that's what

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I said to the Prime Minister four

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o'clock but I thought it was you BL u BL

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was Osama bin Laden

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suddenly under the blue skies of New

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York Tara had a human face answer

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Stephen and mi5 knew who he was they had

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been watching al-qaeda since the

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mid-1990s we knew the world had changed

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because of the suicide bomber was the

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beginning of a new world really

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[Music]

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the intelligence community and

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politicians on both sides of the

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Atlantic

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reacted swiftly America went into

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lockdown all transatlantic flights were

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cancelled by one

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within 24 hours a c-130 Hercules

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secretly took off from RAF Brize Norton

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bound for Andrews Air Force Base in

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Maryland

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[Music]

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the three security agencies of the

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British government were sending their

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officers Liza my successor went with

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chief in Esaias and the director of GCHQ

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and they flew from the UK to us the

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Americans had to be nervous letting any

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aircraft into their airspace

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even with f-16 escorting it to land in

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the u.s. very important signal the

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American community and government about

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you guys the team went straight to CIA

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headquarters in Langley in London so

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Stephen attended a series of meetings at

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number 10 the agenda how secure was

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Britain after 9/11 I was Prime Minister

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John Scalzi is that shermanology I see

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and there was me sitting on the sofas

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and we talked about whodunit what it

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meant would the UK via targets yes

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probably we talked about the training

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camps in Afghanistan and how they were

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sort of part of this conspiracy that's

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where the planning had probably been

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done and our concerns about you know it

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was at the camps and when they might

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come back trying to get your head round

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what would this mean for us where we

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going to do a lot of scenario planning

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and nuclear bombs on westminster bridge

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and all that sort of thinking

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[Music]

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since 9/11 mi5 has uncovered more than a

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dozen plots to murder thousands of

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innocent Britons but it's not the

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successes we always hear about failures

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are horribly and spectacularly public

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and nature tourism is such that when

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things go wrong it's jolly visible

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because the bomb goes off or people are

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killed or something atrocity within the

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last decade mi5 has changed focus and

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doubled in size after 9/11 it had to

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today it has a budget running into

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hundreds of millions of pounds and

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employs nearly three thousand eight

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hundred people none are identified

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except the Director General it needs to

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be a Secret Service to do its job all

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the intelligence they gather is stored

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in the registry deep in the basement of

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Thames house mi5 s headquarters

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almost a hundred years it has been

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strictly off-limits to outsiders until

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now one man professor Christopher Andrew

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has been given unprecedented access to

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mi5 files to write it's authorized

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history but Andrew was an academic not a

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spy he was proposed that I should join

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mi5 while I was writing the history I

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would never have proposed it but seemed

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to me to make quite amount of sense if

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you go in to write a history

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warts-and-all

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people are going to talk to you more

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frankly if you're not an outside

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contractor who is perceived as

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fault-finding it was a fine balance that

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he had to achieve he read thousands of

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files over six years the difficulty was

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to reveal the truth but protect

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identities and necessary secrets

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I did not have and I should not have had

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the last word on what could be released

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on what could not but every single

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judgment that I arrived at whether it

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was comfortable or not for mi5 is there

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sir Steven Lander was the

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director-general with the controversial

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idea of publishing mi5 s history there's

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been an awful lot of nonsense written

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about mi5 over the years some of that's

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helpful a little bit of myths never does

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you any harm if you're in that sort of

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business but we also got a lot of

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criticism which was unjust who just

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wasn't real so all those myths that

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we've been putting up with you know the

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Wilson plot or whether we didn't fecund

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invested located in Mickey Mouse or John

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Lennon or something all that stuff with

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a nuisance to us and sort of held us

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down for the first time the real spooks

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can tell our own stories from the world

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of spies that we only know from fiction

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spies on film and TV are stone-faced

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close-lipped glamorous they save the

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world once an hour the reality isn't

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quite the same television portrays

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operations of being half dozen people to

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cones or something running about you

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can't do surveillance without lots of

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people without teams working together so

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the cult of the individual television

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portrays is inaccurate

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big investigations involve lots police

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forces other people as well and

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therefore your the idea that the whole

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thing is down as of the Boston six

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people is rubbish mi5 s files reveal

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that one of the most potentially

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dangerous terrorist conspiracies

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happened in 2006

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the most the important canter terrorist

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operation in the whole of British

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history sounds exaggerated that it was

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not was operation overt and operation

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overt discovered and nipped in the bud

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at what would have been I think an

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al-qaeda success in its own terms on the

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scale of 9/11 the bombers planned to

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blow up seven transatlantic jets and

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murder thousands of passengers in a

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coordinated attack to surpass neither

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the plan was to use the flash units and

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disposable cameras to detonate liquid

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explosives in soft drink bottles plot

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leader Abdullah Ahmed Ali was a British

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born Muslim who'd attended terrorist

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training camps in Pakistan with the

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leaders of the 7/7 London bombings mi5 s

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files show how spoiling the plot

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stretched resources to the limit what

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we're talking about is tens of thousands

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of men and women hours what is achieved

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is video footage of them actually

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constructing the bombs martyrdom

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statements that were obtained from the

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Sun and some were again introduced in

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evidence at the trial if you work out

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how much work was involved I don't think

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that any counter-terrorist operation in

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British history has ever been as

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labor-intensive as that much

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[Music]

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when mi5 began in earnest just before

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the first world war

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Vernon Cal its first director-general

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had a staff of 16 including the

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caretaker even so its success rate was

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surprisingly high

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[Music]

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it was still a small organization when

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world war ii broke out in 1939 but the

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German threat was bigger this time the

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result was a chaotic and ill planned

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expansion friends are friends and those

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with the right connections were hastily

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hired for quite a long period people who

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joined five join because they knew

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somebody in it and they were recommended

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so there was a sort of there were

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personal relationships built up sort of

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before you became a member of the

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organization

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ladies Cynthia posten daughter of the

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Duke of Albemarle had been presented to

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King Edward the eighth in 1936 before

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the Duke and Duchess of York and the

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Duke and Duchess of Kent well there were

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what is described now as as upper-class

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they all came from the top levels of

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society

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I'm a stepmother new severe ankle and I

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went up for an interview at the War

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Office and was interviewed by Miss

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Dunstable she was an elderly lady

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unmarried presumably and the next day

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she gave me an assignation to go to

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Wormwood Scrubs it was here that mi5

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began planning operation double-cross

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double cross was the most successful

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deception in the entire history of

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warfare all German spies who are landed

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in Britain with the exception of one for

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man who lands in Cambridge and commits

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suicide all captured every single one of

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them after capturing them they turned

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most of them creating double agents who

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fed misleading information back to their

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German spy masters it mattered

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enormously because Hitler bothered a lot

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about the reports that came from his

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agents in England all of whom he

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believed to be genuine butuan German

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spies all of whom in fact were mi5

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agents and he based a lot of his plans

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on information that came from these

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spies which was quite untrue mi5 were

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amazed by the incompetence of many

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German agents they used rather odd and

play12:46

not in Phibes opinion very high-class

play12:48

agents they sent over a lot of thugs one

play12:52

highly distinguished burglar who changed

play12:54

sides just as well and v was surprised

play12:59

they didn't use higher class agents they

play13:02

were all sent by the up fair the Armed

play13:05

Forces intelligence staff rather than by

play13:08

the SS in toads and stuff which was a

play13:11

much more formidable and much more able

play13:13

body of men this was probably on the

play13:16

Germans part of a mistake and from which

play13:18

five benefited

play13:21

mi5 s most successful double-cross agent

play13:24

was a Spanish businessman Juan Pujol

play13:27

codenamed Garbo after the film star

play13:31

Garber helped fool the Germans into

play13:33

believing the detai plan was to land in

play13:36

pas de calais not Normandy after the war

play13:41

Garber received an MBE from the Queen

play13:44

he'd already been awarded the Iron Cross

play13:46

by Hitler when Garbo gets the news that

play13:53

he has been awarded the Iron Cross he

play13:55

radios back to his German intelligence

play13:56

controller at this moment I am so

play13:59

overcome by emotion that I cannot put my

play14:03

feelings into words why not he was

play14:06

rolling around on the floor helpless

play14:09

with laughter and so was his mi5 case

play14:12

officer double-crossed shows the

play14:16

extraordinary British talent for really

play14:19

superior practical jokes but the outcome

play14:24

was nearly not so comical mi5 files show

play14:29

the tragedy was narrowly averted for the

play14:33

first time it can be revealed the two

play14:35

German agents did penetrate mi5 mi5 was

play14:39

penetrated by two people who had a

play14:41

previous record of working as their

play14:44

agents one was a man called folkert fan

play14:47

true trick and somebody called Jack

play14:49

Hooper the two agents had been working

play14:53

for mi6 in Holland their cover story was

play14:57

that they were fleeing the German

play14:58

invasion mi5 boarded and employed them

play15:03

luckily they did not advance high enough

play15:05

in mi5 to jeopardize double-cross

play15:10

only after the war ended - the pair's

play15:12

true allegiance come to light when

play15:17

Wormwood Scrubs was bombed in 1940 mi5

play15:21

moved to the more salubrious

play15:22

surroundings of Blenheim Palace their

play15:27

lady Cynthia met art historian mi5

play15:31

officer and Soviet spy Anthony Blunt he

play15:34

was a friend of my brother-in-law's and

play15:37

you Dina Trinity and I used to meet him

play15:41

and go out with him to lunch he went

play15:48

around the Secretary's behaving like

play15:50

Christopher Robin taking his cod liver

play15:52

oil and saying things like that's what

play15:54

Tiggers like it may sound like a pretty

play15:56

feeble joke though but of the time it

play15:58

was considered witty it was quite

play16:01

incredible that blunt was ever accepted

play16:03

into mi5 given his known communist

play16:06

connections mi5 already had on record

play16:10

that he had been to Russia he had

play16:12

expressed to a number of people his

play16:14

support for what was going on there and

play16:16

he actually been expelled from a

play16:19

military intelligence training course

play16:21

but here's the problem only a year

play16:24

before the outbreak of war mi5 only had

play16:27

30 officers it had to expand

play16:29

extraordinarily rapidly there wasn't a

play16:32

proper vetting procedure in place blunt

play16:36

said his communist interests were linked

play16:38

to his art history studies he was

play16:41

believed and lucky to

play16:44

when Churchill demanded monthly

play16:46

bulletins of mi5 activities guess who

play16:49

got the job one most extraordinary

play16:51

things about Anthony blunts wartime

play16:54

career in mi5 is that he's reporting to

play16:57

both Winston Churchill and to Joseph

play16:58

Stalin Blount passed on so many

play17:02

documents more than 1700 for years that

play17:06

his Soviet masters thought him a double

play17:08

agent they only changed their minds when

play17:14

10 days before d-day blunt handed over

play17:17

the complete landing and deception plans

play17:19

it's all very well to argue that Britain

play17:22

and the Soviet Union were on the same

play17:24

side and therefore providing British

play17:26

intelligence to the Russians is merely

play17:29

providing intelligence to an ally it is

play17:31

not as simple as that for a number of

play17:33

reasons

play17:34

and one of them is passing on the secret

play17:37

and that we had broken the German codes

play17:41

when the Allies captured a German Enigma

play17:43

machine

play17:44

they broke its secret code at Bletchley

play17:46

Park it was one of the most closely

play17:49

guarded secrets of the wall but blunt

play17:54

told his Soviet masters about the

play17:56

breakthrough we do know that the Germans

play18:01

were able to read some Russian ciphers

play18:04

now if in the military instructions that

play18:07

got to Russian troops on the Eastern

play18:10

Front there had been any reference to

play18:12

material which could only have been

play18:14

learnt from breaking German ciphers then

play18:17

the Germans might have changed those

play18:18

ciphers and that was an appalling risk

play18:20

and that was a risk that was taken by

play18:22

Antony blunt wouldn't have been able

play18:25

Hitler to win the war but it would have

play18:27

meant that he would have lost it a good

play18:28

deal more slowly

play18:31

after the war Blunt went back to being

play18:34

an art historian and later surveyor of

play18:37

the Queen's pictures

play18:39

he wasn't publicly exposed as a Soviet

play18:42

spy until 1979

play18:44

I acted according to my conscience in

play18:47

during this in nineteen when it was all

play18:49

said it 536 and that meant de soir to

play18:55

this country first as I've said it was I

play18:58

believed it was the right thing in the

play19:00

cause of enter fascism I now realized

play19:03

Italy this is totally wrong but Blunt

play19:08

wasn't working alone he was part of a

play19:11

network of spies recruited at Cambridge

play19:13

who infiltrated British intelligence

play19:17

diverges Donald MacLean John can cross

play19:20

and kim Philby along with blunt were

play19:23

known to the KGB as the magnificent five

play19:26

their tale of treachery is the stuff of

play19:29

spy novels but what nearly brought the

play19:31

service to its knees was the suggestion

play19:34

of a sixth spy

play19:37

Sir Roger Hollis later director general

play19:40

of mi5 if he had been a traitor it would

play19:44

have been the most devastating blow of

play19:46

all one of the most destructive things

play19:48

can happen in any organization is to

play19:51

have a conspiracy theorist who becomes

play19:53

obsessed by the hunt for imaginary

play19:56

traitors that is what Peter Wright does

play20:01

Peter Wright was the self-appointed

play20:03

Witchfinder general within mi5 he became

play20:07

convinced there was a soviet mole in the

play20:09

highest ranks of mi5 his belief became

play20:12

an obsession when I first joined I was

play20:16

sent off to see this man he said I was

play20:18

far too young to be involved in these

play20:20

things and when I please clear off so I

play20:22

instantly disliked him he was known as

play20:27

being not poor he was one of those

play20:29

people who think they're the only people

play20:30

who understand something everybody else

play20:32

reminded in business so he was always

play20:34

stopping other people doing things as he

play20:36

knew best we used to call him the KGB

play20:38

rezident because he was doing more to

play20:40

help the KGB than anybody else because

play20:42

he stopped us sort of doing our job when

play20:45

right retire to Tasmania his Vendetta

play20:48

continued he went public and fed his

play20:51

stories to a journalist right away you

play20:54

could see he was a very devious

play20:56

character but then all people in mi5 are

play20:58

after you've got to be it's devious work

play21:01

you're doing and anyone who said oh I

play21:03

can't tell a lie I mean he is no good

play21:05

now my father later

play21:08

Chapman pincher helped write to find a

play21:10

publisher for spy catcher it became an

play21:13

international bestseller selling more

play21:15

than 2 million copies the British

play21:17

government's attempts to stop its

play21:19

publication became a national

play21:20

embarrassment

play21:22

I don't feel a bit sympathetic Willie

play21:24

Allen Peter Wright was a traitor in

play21:27

their midst of a different kind of

play21:29

traitor but he was warned the fact that

play21:32

he did it for money rather than anything

play21:34

else is horrific for him he caused havoc

play21:37

externally by publishing the book

play21:40

internally the day you retire you cease

play21:42

to have any currency he's sort of

play21:44

long-term impact was not as much just he

play21:47

was a pain in the ass to deal with and I

play21:48

met him but what did the mi5 files say

play21:53

about Sir Roger Hollis is there any

play21:56

evidence to show he was a traitor the

play21:58

Hollis story was always a really stupid

play22:02

story why because all the way during the

play22:05

Second World War

play22:06

Roger Hollis is saying look we can't

play22:08

afford to start paying attention to the

play22:10

Soviet target we can't afford to stop

play22:12

meticulously recording the identities as

play22:15

well members the British communists that

play22:16

we come across this went far beyond the

play22:18

needs of cover so actually he's somebody

play22:22

who begins to fight the Cold War

play22:23

even before of the Cold War in the KGB

play22:31

headquarters in Moscow they were

play22:33

confounded by the publicity surrounding

play22:34

Wright and Hollis British intelligence

play22:38

knew this because their agent told them

play22:40

they remember sitting in their office or

play22:43

the head of the British section of the

play22:47

KGB and she was reading a British

play22:50

newspaper accessible available for him

play22:54

only because it was never sold in in the

play22:57

streets as he was eating why is it there

play23:00

speaking about Roger

play23:01

olives such noses can't understand it it

play23:06

must be some special English trick

play23:10

directed against us

play23:14

hidden in the thousands of mi5 files are

play23:17

the names of other Britons who did spy

play23:19

for the KGB some at the heart of the

play23:22

British establishment the idea that a

play23:29

future British Prime Minister could have

play23:31

been a Russian spy is almost unthinkable

play23:35

but some in Moscow and London thought

play23:38

the unthinkable

play23:41

[Music]

play23:42

Harold Wilson was a frequent visitor to

play23:44

Moscow as a junior politician and

play23:47

businessman the Russians had

play23:50

extraordinary and very foolish hopes for

play23:53

Wilson but in the mid-1950s the KGB

play23:57

opens what it called an agent

play24:00

operational file on Harold Wilson and

play24:02

he's given a code name the code name is

play24:04

holding they actually hope to recruit

play24:07

him it could be said that Wilson brought

play24:11

suspicions on himself with his choice of

play24:13

friends probably his closest friend in

play24:16

the business world who was a man called

play24:18

Joseph Kagan who manufactured League

play24:20

anacs max which Wilson wore regularly

play24:23

and who became thanks to Harold Sir

play24:26

Joseph Kagan and later Lord Kagan now

play24:29

between 1964 and 1971 Lord cake and met

play24:34

a KGB officer every week who would come

play24:38

around to his flat asked him for the

play24:40

latest gossip no it's not likely that

play24:42

state secrets were passed over but this

play24:45

is a highly inappropriate friendship for

play24:48

a prime minister

play24:50

friendships like this brought Wilson to

play24:52

the attention of mi5 Wilson's

play24:56

extravagant praise of Soviet leader

play24:58

Khrushchev made things worse later

play25:02

Wilson became suspicious of mi5 was

play25:04

interested in him and thought they were

play25:05

leaking stories to the newspapers

play25:09

he thought that mi5 was feeding with

play25:12

this information and he also felt that

play25:14

in the process mi5 were spying on him

play25:18

and the bug destruction number 10 down

play25:22

the street to add to Wilson suspicions

play25:26

America's Secret Service were caught up

play25:28

in the atmosphere of distrust there was

play25:31

a problem with the CIA and that is there

play25:35

was a man there called angleton who were

play25:38

more prone to suspect people even than

play25:40

Peter Wright was and he had an operation

play25:43

there killed him out chief in which they

play25:46

were looking at the possibility that the

play25:47

British prime minister was a Soviet

play25:49

agent and angleton became friendly would

play25:52

right and so the two stoked each other

play25:55

out on being reelected in 1974 Wilson

play25:59

declared to a colleague there are only

play26:02

three people listening you me and mi5 he

play26:06

believed that behind the picture of one

play26:10

of his most illustrious predecessors mr.

play26:12

Cranston there was some kind of tiny

play26:15

camera which was observing him he had

play26:20

always been a conspiracy theorist and he

play26:23

now begins to believe that the Security

play26:25

Service is plotting against him he

play26:27

reaches the stage and when he's going

play26:29

into the gents in number 10 and put his

play26:32

finger to his lips he would point to the

play26:34

light fitting in the ceiling he would

play26:36

turn on the taps in order to indicate

play26:39

that it was probably bugged

play26:43

this is the sad decline of one of the

play26:46

ablest Prime Minister's that had ever

play26:47

been in Britain Harold Wilson died in

play26:52

1995 after suffering dementia only now

play26:58

has Chris Andrew discovered in the mi5

play27:00

files that perhaps Wilson's suspicions

play27:03

had some substance he found a file on

play27:06

one Norman John Worthington mi5 never

play27:11

told how it was in the defender file on

play27:13

him it was given the pseudonym of

play27:15

Worthington and yet mi5 never

play27:19

investigated Harold Wilson as such what

play27:22

the file contained was material about

play27:24

Harold Wilson's contacts related to the

play27:27

fact that as we know from KGB archives

play27:29

the KGB did attempt to recruit him as an

play27:32

agent never had the slightest success in

play27:36

doing so

play27:37

Wilson was innocent but other labor

play27:41

colleagues weren't John's Stonehouse a

play27:44

junior minister is best known for faking

play27:46

his own drowning leaving his clothes on

play27:49

a Miami Beach and running away to

play27:51

Australia with his mistress

play27:53

the mi5 files reveal that for more than

play27:56

ten years stone house was a Czech agent

play27:58

he was questioned after a defector named

play28:01

him but never prosecuted for lack of

play28:04

admissible evidence

play28:10

but mi5 s files have revealed a more

play28:13

serious case of potential treachery this

play28:16

time by a major trade union figure

play28:20

former KGB officer Alek Gordievsky who

play28:23

secretly worked for British intelligence

play28:25

found his case file in the British

play28:30

section of the KGB I looked through the

play28:32

files I was a so-called agents some

play28:38

agents were very weak doing very little

play28:41

for the KGB but still it was the kind of

play28:44

assets then we were supposed to run them

play28:47

as agents as much as possible then there

play28:50

was a fellow Jones

play28:52

Jack Jones was a veteran of the

play28:54

International Brigade in the Spanish

play28:56

Civil War he went on to become leader of

play28:59

the transport and general workers union

play29:03

hugely popular and widely respected he

play29:06

died in spring 2009 aged 96 having

play29:10

become a much-loved champion of old age

play29:12

pensioners in his retirement the

play29:16

allegations that Jack Jones was a KGB

play29:19

agent shocked his surviving family

play29:23

his youngest son Michael is currently

play29:25

clearing his father's south London flat

play29:32

presentative work people I want to see

play29:43

mr. Andrew must have realized that when

play29:46

you revealed what's in mi5 files like

play29:48

this with no real proof that the

play29:51

nastiest sections of the gutter press in

play29:54

this country about the seas on these

play29:56

kind of canards and blow them up and you

play29:59

know it's very distressing obviously not

play30:01

just for me but for many members of the

play30:03

family and I'm very good friends of

play30:04

Jacob which he had very many of course

play30:06

in this country because you know he

play30:07

really did work all his life to try to

play30:09

improve the conditions for all new

play30:11

working people the book says that from

play30:14

1964 to 1968 the KGB regarded Jack Jones

play30:19

as a later KGB judgment not mi5 judgment

play30:23

why did the KGB reach that conclusion

play30:25

because during that period of four years

play30:28

Jack Jones was willing to provide

play30:31

confidential but not secret and

play30:33

certainly not classified labour party

play30:35

and trade union material to her contact

play30:38

in the Soviet embassy for which the KGB

play30:41

was ever so grateful when Czechoslovakia

play30:45

sprog spring of 1968 was crushed by

play30:48

Soviet tanks a disillusioned Jones

play30:51

turned his back on the KGB

play30:54

in 1982 elec Gordievsky was posted to

play30:58

london there was a telegram please

play31:03

resume the contacts with our old agent

play31:06

Jake Jones so very unwillingly I visited

play31:11

him ins his flat and invited him to a

play31:13

restaurant and then I asked the head of

play31:16

station should I give him money and he

play31:18

knowing a little bit of Jones's

play31:20

background said yes give him some cash

play31:24

what is claimed is that Gordievsky

play31:27

slipped him 215 pounds it's ridiculous

play31:32

why my father would never take money for

play31:34

anything like that

play31:35

I mean twice turned down the offer of

play31:37

being in the House of Lords he was

play31:38

offered endless directorships of

play31:40

companies because a feather his nest

play31:42

over and over we could have been living

play31:44

in a mansion house I showed him the list

play31:46

of the three union leaders and asked him

play31:50

to describe each of them who of them can

play31:54

be recruitable for the KGB and she wrote

play31:58

on this list who was recruitable for the

play32:00

KGB she was absolutely proper and very

play32:03

very vulnerable agents for the KGB

play32:05

distinguished agent of the KGB

play32:08

she was very respected by the KGB and

play32:10

very very much loved by the department

play32:16

because he was a dream of the KGB so

play32:19

brilliant and so useful and so well

play32:22

disciplined these are just reports from

play32:24

a notorious double agent I don't know

play32:27

why I should believe anything he says

play32:29

really I mean he was obviously

play32:31

professional lawyer

play32:33

Gordievsky may yet drop another

play32:35

bombshell

play32:36

he claims that there is at least one

play32:39

other important political figure from

play32:41

that era whose Soviet contacts are

play32:43

suspicious the security service has got

play32:46

reasons to keep some names still secret

play32:48

so spirits of Andrus book is 1,000 pages

play32:52

but it's not the whole truth

play32:54

it isn't probably on the sick waters of

play32:57

the truth

play32:59

until the late 1960s mi5 s resources had

play33:03

been devoted to counter espionage

play33:06

defending the nation from spies at home

play33:08

abroad even within but then a new threat

play33:15

emerged

play33:17

the Provisional IRA began a campaign of

play33:20

shootings and bombings across the United

play33:22

Kingdom repeatedly striking of the heart

play33:27

of the British establishment

play33:31

the lead Intelligence role in Britain

play33:33

was run not by the service but by the

play33:35

Metropolitan Police

play33:39

but mi5 did have the lead role in

play33:42

Gibraltar

play33:46

so the biggest-ever deployment till that

play33:49

point of mi5 against the IRA takes place

play33:53

not in the United Kingdom but in

play33:55

Gibraltar

play33:56

[Music]

play34:02

[Applause]

play34:03

[Music]

play34:07

[Applause]

play34:08

[Music]

play34:12

in February 1988 an mi5 surveillance

play34:16

team was working with Spanish police on

play34:18

operation Flavius the events which

play34:23

followed became an international

play34:24

controversy the flames were found by a

play34:27

TV documentary death on the rock mi5 was

play34:32

caught up in allegations of a shoot to

play34:34

kill policy the files show that Siobhan

play34:38

O'Hanlon a known Provisional IRA

play34:40

explosives expert was spotted crossing

play34:43

the Spanish border into Drupal 'te an

play34:46

mi5 surveillance map survives of her

play34:49

precise route shows her going into the

play34:52

Gibraltar Cathedral to light a candle

play34:54

say a prayer

play34:56

she believed in the Justice of her

play34:58

course

play35:00

Oh Hanlon was on her own surveillance

play35:02

mission

play35:04

the IRAs target was the Royal Gibraltar

play35:07

regiments changing of the guard ceremony

play35:11

mi5 s files show that O'Hanlon watched

play35:14

the ceremony then excitedly phoned an

play35:16

emic an unknown IRA hitman

play35:19

then she headed back across the border

play35:23

but when she's back in Spain she sparks

play35:25

Spanish surveillance so she goes back to

play35:28

Island and that saves her life according

play35:30

to the files Siobhan was replaced by

play35:32

Mairead Farrell mi5 s roles to

play35:36

coordinate intelligence plan a response

play35:38

to the IRA team and guide and advise the

play35:41

police as the operation unfolded events

play35:44

reached a climax on Sunday March the 6th

play35:46

1988 at 2:25 that afternoon Farrell and

play35:51

McCann were observed crossing La Linea

play35:53

checkpoint on foot by an mi5

play35:55

surveillance team a third terrorist

play35:58

Shawn savage drove across the border

play36:00

unnoticed later the three met in a park

play36:03

at around 3:40 an SAS team intercepted

play36:07

and shot all three dead did the soldiers

play36:11

give a warning they didn't give them the

play36:14

option of surrendering line ago or

play36:17

defending themselves they just killed

play36:19

him and I think that was not that was

play36:21

not a good thing I don't think it was

play36:22

right and proper the mi5 files paint a

play36:26

picture of the SAS team facing a classic

play36:28

dilemma they said they couldn't risk the

play36:31

parked car being a car bomb or they I

play36:34

are a team

play36:34

drawing weapons but it turned out that

play36:37

the IRA team was unarmed and there was

play36:40

no bomb in their car what you have to

play36:42

say is there were plenty of

play36:44

opportunities to arrest those IRA

play36:46

members before they got into job rota

play36:48

and since they were unarmed could they

play36:52

have been taken without shooting perhaps

play36:54

and the final thing you've got to ask is

play36:56

do you employ the SAS if you want people

play36:59

to be taken alive I'm entirely satisfied

play37:03

from looking at files that this was not

play37:05

shoot to kill if there had been any

play37:09

deliberate intention to shoot to kill

play37:11

then press lines would have been

play37:13

prepared to explain why it was that

play37:16

they'd been killed one of the reasons

play37:17

for the confusion afterwards is that

play37:19

there was absolutely no government line

play37:23

on why these three people had been shot

play37:24

which is why ministers contradict

play37:26

themselves the following day if they've

play37:28

been a deliberate policy the story would

play37:30

have been worked out in advance I think

play37:32

one of the problems that Christopher

play37:34

Andrew has got with this book is that he

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is has

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Orion who tells the truth but he's right

play37:39

in the history of an institution an

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organization that doesn't always tell

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the truth in fact most organizations

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don't they have this thing called the

play37:45

institutional truth it's not what

play37:47

happened it's what the organization

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wants the rest of the world to think

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happened indeed they may persuade

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themselves it happened but it didn't an

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inquest absolved the SAS of any

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wrongdoing later the European Court of

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Human Rights ruled the killings

play38:00

unnecessary mi5 felt damaged by the

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Gibraltar incident because if you are

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accused in a BAFTA winning film of

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operating a shoot-to-kill policy and

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many people believe that then you put

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your reputation and your morale is

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necessarily affected three years after

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the Gibraltar shootings another IRA

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operation in the heart of the British

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government put mi5 in a central

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counterterrorism role in an audacious

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attack the IRA fired mortars at 10

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Downing Street just as Prime Minister

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John Major was holding a cabinet meeting

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major said afterwards that he had been

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told that if the mortar which was fired

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from a white van on Horse Guards Evanier

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had got ten foot placing they would have

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been deaths in the cabinet room and he

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was very close to being the biggest

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success in the entire history of Irish

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Republican terrorism it was a turning

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point major was very very annoyed he

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reached the conclusion that it was time

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for the lead intelligence role against

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the IRA on the British mainland to be

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transferred to mi5 for the first time

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soon afterwards it emerged that majors

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government was involved in back-channel

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conversations with the IRA contrary to

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official policy the files in mi5 s

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headquarters confirmed that a number of

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its officers were instrumental in making

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these talks happen we won't these

play39:44

discussions they were really important I

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think because they started the process

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or they reinforced the process of

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Originals thinking about politics and

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thinking about the potential for

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political gains absent violence this

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will be the image Remembered in history

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the austere unionist

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and shin fade leaders applauding the

play40:07

same thing with Irish terrorists laying

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down their arms in favor of the ballot

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box and the cold war over mi5 was

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looking at an uncertain future in the

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late 1990s

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[Music]

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then a new adversary appeared bigger

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than any that had gone before

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[Music]

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when 9/11 shocked the world al-qaida was

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already on mi5 s radar but no one was

play40:38

prepared for suicide bombers using

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planes the service was slow copying on

play40:43

to al-qaeda

play40:44

so was the whole of Whitehall so was the

play40:46

whole of the media in fact mi5 had

play40:49

already foiled an al-qaeda inspired plot

play40:51

without fully realizing it so far as we

play40:55

know the first Islamist bomb factory

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almost established in Britain happened

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over a year before 9/11 fortunately the

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man who was seeking to establish it who

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was simply called my newell aberdeen was

play41:08

under surveillance he was caught in

play41:10

operation large he was arrested he is

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now spending a long time in prison at

play41:15

that stage we were rather thinking about

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foreign nationals coming into the

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country because that's what we here to

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see avidin was of Bangladeshi origin but

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a British citizen the rules of

play41:31

engagement were changing and a new

play41:33

threat was emerging

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[Music]

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the events of 7:00 7:00 sharp at mi5 and

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the police counterterrorism unit they

play41:51

had not expected homegrown suicide

play41:54

bombers it became clear within a day or

play41:57

two that what we were looking at was

play41:59

British suicide bombers a completely new

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challenge for us and one of the biggest

play42:04

changes in terms of directing a response

play42:07

to counterterrorism now what we see is

play42:11

just simply a determination to kill as

play42:14

many people as possible that seems to be

play42:16

the ambition of terrorists both here and

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overseas and the casualty toll is

play42:21

immeasurably higher than it was from the

play42:24

Irish terrorist threat thing about the

play42:28

IRA is they always wanted to go and have

play42:30

a Guinness they weren't you know martyrs

play42:32

so you could you could take some ranging

play42:37

shots as to what they might do which

play42:39

were easier than current targets if we

play42:41

can learn anything from history

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it's that al-qaeda and those groups

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actually repeat they're targeting they

play42:48

repeat their attack methods they've

play42:50

tried it before they tried it in 2006

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and I have no doubt at all that they

play42:54

will try it again after seven seven came

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criticism why hadn't mi5 identified and

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stopped the Bombers the Intelligence and

play43:06

Security Committee concluded that the

play43:08

number of potential terrorists was

play43:10

greater than the resources mi5 had to

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deal with a threat

play43:15

for years on mi5 is being called to

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answer another allegation complicity in

play43:22

torture Binyam Mohamed el Habashi an

play43:26

Ethiopian born UK resident claims he was

play43:29

tortured in Pakistan and Morocco and

play43:31

that his torturers received questions

play43:33

and materials from British intelligence

play43:37

the allegations are still unproven but

play43:41

of true run contrary to an mi5 ethos

play43:43

established during the Second World War

play43:47

German agents were interrogated at Camp

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Oh - OH

play43:50

in Surrey run by Colonel Robin Stevens

play43:53

known as 10i he was called deny because

play43:57

he always wore a monocle

play43:58

he had the manners and the appearance of

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a Prussian sergeant major but as the

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people okay me and tell them they were

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reptiles he was good to treat them as

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reptiles unless it would work with him

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he had one cast-iron rule which he

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insisted on all his staff following you

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must never actually touch a prisoner any

play44:18

sort of beating him up he's absolutely

play44:21

out of the question

play44:23

quite right - because if you once start

play44:26

beating a man up people tell you

play44:28

anything you like to get you to stop

play44:30

beating him up doesn't mean that what he

play44:32

tells you is true

play44:34

Tinh I believed information gained under

play44:37

torture was not reliable and that ethos

play44:40

seems as old as the service itself in

play44:43

one of the questions of course that

play44:45

crops up from time to time is we want to

play44:48

get as much as we can out of captured

play44:50

agents should we torture them and the

play44:52

answer is no repeatedly in the mi5 files

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why do I believe these files wealth

play44:58

because they were written I know from

play45:00

some of the things that were written in

play45:01

them by people who had not the slightest

play45:04

idea that there was the slightest

play45:06

possibility that what they wrote would

play45:08

ever become no mi5 files were not to

play45:11

become now at any point full-stop

play45:13

ever it is certainly the case that

play45:18

people who joined the service are

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expected to have strong views about

play45:22

propriety

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generally speaking you couldn't get them

play45:24

to do something naughty because I

play45:25

wouldn't do it they'd say no no that's

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not proper and that's a good thing it's

play45:29

healthy and the staff sort of own sense

play45:32

of what's right and wrong is a very in

play45:34

strong part of the services tradition

play45:36

the final word lies with the police and

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the courts but it might be one of those

play45:42

controversies that even the fires cannot

play45:44

let arrest after six years studying its

play45:48

secrets Christopher Andrew believes the

play45:50

files don't just have lessons for mi5 I

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think that the old saying that those who

play45:56

do not understand past mistakes are

play45:58

jolly likely to repeat them happened in

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the case of mi5 as it happened in the

play46:03

case of British government time after

play46:04

time after time after a hundred years

play46:07

mi5 is proud of its history but

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realistic about its future some of the

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things we've done have been first class

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and some of the things haven't been

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first class you know kind of get all the

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judgments right you're not gonna get the

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intelligence you need on every case so

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you expect not to win every war as we're

play46:23

not doing every pattern just win the

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wars

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[Music]

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[Music]

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[Music]

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Related Tags
MI5 HistoryCounterterrorismSpy OperationsCold War Espionage9/11 AftermathIRA CampaignAl-Qaeda ThreatIntelligence AnalysisPolitical IntrigueSecret Service