Understanding Classroom Discourse (With Steve Walsh)

Summary

In this TEFL training institute podcast, Professor Steve Walsh from Newcastle University delves into classroom discourse, exploring the significance of teacher-student interactions. Walsh discusses common teaching practices like elicitation, error correction, and feedback, emphasizing their impact on learning. He advocates for a balance between display and referential questions to foster genuine student engagement. The conversation also touches on the role of institutional discourse, the influence of cultural context on teaching practices, and the importance of adapting teacher roles to enhance the learning experience.

Takeaways

• 😀 Classroom discourse refers to all interactions in the classroom, focusing on teacher-student exchanges.
• 📚 Elicitation, error correction, and feedback are key classroom practices that require language.
• 🗣 Feedback is critical in the classroom but has been harder to gauge during online teaching due to lack of visual cues.
• ❓ Display questions are commonly used in classrooms to prompt students to show what they know, but referential questions could encourage more authentic interactions.
• 🤔 Teachers should balance the use of display and referential questions to promote more genuine student engagement.
• 🎯 The language teachers use should align with their teaching goals. For example, promoting fluency requires more open-ended questions.
• 🏫 Classroom interactions are structured and follow institutional rules, making them different from casual conversations.
• 🌍 Cultural context influences teaching roles and expectations, but teachers need to adapt based on the immediate classroom needs.
• 🔄 Teacher roles should be flexible, varying throughout the lesson based on the activity and learning goals.
• 💼 External pressures, such as from parents or exam requirements, can also shape how teachers behave in the classroom.

Q & A

What is classroom discourse according to Steve Walsh?

Classroom discourse covers all the interactions that take place in any classroom, including the actual recording, observation, and transcript of those interactions.

Why is studying classroom discourse important?

Studying classroom discourse is important because it shows what's happening in a classroom, providing insights into whether teaching and learning are occurring.

What are the common teaching practices that involve language?

Common teaching practices that involve language include asking questions, correcting errors, giving feedback, and managing learning through instructions and organization.

How does feedback play a role in online teaching during the COVID-19 pandemic?

Feedback is crucial in online teaching as it helps teachers understand if students are understanding or learning. However, during the COVID-19 pandemic, the lack of visual cues like head nods and smiles makes it challenging to gauge student comprehension.

What is the difference between elicitation, repair, and feedback in classroom discourse?

Elicitation is about getting students to say something by asking a question. Repair refers to the ways teachers correct errors. Feedback is the information teachers and students give to each other to understand what's going on in the classroom.

Why is it suggested to push learners for 'pushed output' in the classroom?

Pushing learners for 'pushed output' is suggested to encourage more extensive responses from students, thus promoting deeper learning and engagement beyond simple yes/no answers.

What are display questions and referential questions in the classroom?

Display questions are those where teachers know the answers and are used to prompt students to display their knowledge. Referential questions are genuine inquiries where teachers do not know the answers and are aimed at accessing information and showing interest in students' experiences.

How do institutional discourse settings differ from everyday conversations?

Institutional discourse settings like classrooms have specific rules and roles that restrict the types of interactions that can occur, making them different from more informal, everyday conversations.

What influences the role a teacher adopts in the classroom?

The role a teacher adopts in the classroom is influenced by factors such as the lesson's micro-context, teaching goals, cultural expectations, and external pressures like curriculum, assessment, and examinations.

Why is it beneficial for teachers to vary their roles during a lesson?

Varying their roles allows teachers to match their interaction style with the lesson's goals, promoting effective teaching and learning by adapting to the needs of the students and the subject matter.

How can understanding classroom discourse contribute to a teacher's professional development?

Understanding classroom discourse can contribute to a teacher's professional development by providing insights into effective teaching practices, student engagement, and strategies for enhancing learning outcomes.

Outlines

00:00

🗣️ Classroom Discourse and Interactions

In this podcast segment, Steve Walsh, a professor of applied linguistics at Newcastle University, discusses the concept of classroom discourse. He explains that classroom discourse encompasses all interactions within a classroom setting and is crucial for understanding what occurs during teaching and learning. Walsh emphasizes the importance of studying these interactions to infer whether teaching and learning are effectively taking place. He also touches on the common teaching practices such as elicitation, error correction (repair), and feedback, highlighting their significance in the classroom. Walsh points out the challenges of online teaching, where traditional forms of feedback are less accessible, affecting the quality of interaction and the ability to assess student understanding.

05:02

🤔 The Role of Questions in Classroom Discourse

Steve Walsh delves into the role of questions in classroom discourse, differentiating between display questions, which teachers ask with known answers to prompt student responses, and referential questions, which are genuine inquiries that teachers do not have the answers to. He suggests that while display questions are common and serve a purpose in eliciting student responses, there should be a balance with referential questions that show genuine interest in students' experiences and thoughts. Walsh argues for a rebalance towards more authentic questioning to foster a more engaging and interactive learning environment. He also addresses the difference between classroom interactions and everyday conversations, noting that classroom discourse is governed by specific institutional rules that define the roles and interactions between teachers and students.

10:03

🏫 Navigating Classroom Roles and Rules

In this part of the podcast, the discussion turns to the rules and roles that govern classroom interactions. Steve Walsh explains that classroom discourse is an institutional discourse with its own set of rules and roles, which can vary depending on cultural contexts and educational philosophies. He discusses how the teacher's role can shift from being an authority figure to a facilitator, depending on the teaching goals and the stage of the lesson. Walsh also acknowledges the external pressures on teachers, such as expectations from parents, administrators, and curriculum requirements, which can influence their role and classroom interactions. The segment concludes with the idea that understanding and adapting to these roles and rules is essential for effective teaching and learning.

Keywords

💡Classroom Discourse

Classroom discourse refers to the interactions that occur within an educational setting, encompassing all forms of communication between teachers and students. It is central to the video's theme as it is the focus of Steve Walsh's research and discussion. The script mentions that classroom discourse can include the observation and recording of interactions, which are crucial for understanding what is being taught or learned. For instance, the discourse markers used by teachers, such as 'yes' or 'good,' can influence the flow and depth of student participation.

💡Elicitation

Elicitation is a strategy used by teachers to encourage students to produce language by posing questions. It is a common practice in classroom discourse and is highlighted in the script as one of the frequently occurring teaching practices. The script notes that elicitation is often done through questions, which are a primary means of engaging students and assessing their understanding.

💡Repair

Repair in the context of classroom discourse refers to the process of correcting errors made by students. It is a significant aspect of classroom interaction, as it directly impacts learning. The script discusses how teachers constantly engage in error correction, which is a form of repair, and there are debates about whether every error should be corrected, indicating its importance in the learning process.

💡Feedback

Feedback is the response given by teachers to students, which is essential for learning. It is a key concept in the script, as it informs students about their progress and understanding. The discussion in the script emphasizes the importance of feedback, especially in online learning contexts where non-verbal cues are limited, and how it can be used to promote deeper engagement through 'pushed output'.

💡Teaching Practices

Teaching practices are the methods and strategies employed by educators in the classroom. The script mentions that these practices are deeply intertwined with language use, as they are executed through discourse. Examples from the script include elicitation, repair, and feedback, which are all teaching practices that contribute to the learning environment.

💡Display Questions

Display questions are those that teachers ask when they already know the answer. They are used to prompt students to demonstrate their knowledge. The script discusses the prevalence of display questions in classrooms and suggests a need to balance them with referential questions to foster genuine interaction and engagement.

💡Referential Questions

Referential questions are genuine inquiries where the asker does not know the answer. They are contrasted with display questions in the script as a way to promote authentic communication and show interest in students' experiences and thoughts. The script suggests incorporating more referential questions to enhance classroom discourse.

💡Institutional Discourse

Institutional discourse pertains to communication within an institutional setting, such as a classroom, which has its own rules and norms. The script uses this term to explain the structured nature of classroom interactions, which are different from casual conversations due to the roles and objectives present in an educational context.

💡Micro Context

Micro context refers to the specific circumstances or conditions of a situation, such as a classroom lesson, which can influence the dynamics and roles within that setting. The script discusses how teachers' roles may vary within the micro context of a lesson, adapting to the teaching goals and the needs of the students at different moments.

💡Asymmetrical Roles

Asymmetrical roles describe the unequal distribution of authority or status among participants in a discourse setting. In the script, this concept is used to describe the typical teacher-student relationship, where the teacher holds a position of authority and controls the discourse, contrasting with more egalitarian interactions outside the classroom.

💡Socialization of Learning

Socialization of learning refers to the process by which individuals learn the norms and behaviors expected within a particular social setting, such as a classroom. The script mentions that students are socialized to behave in certain ways, like raising their hands to speak, which shapes the nature of classroom discourse and interactions.

Highlights

Classroom discourse covers all interactions in a classroom and is crucial for understanding teaching and learning.

Interactions between teachers and students are key to studying classroom discourse.

Elicitation, repair, and feedback are common teaching practices found in classroom discourse.

Error correction through repair is a frequent practice, though debated in its effectiveness.

Feedback is vital for understanding student comprehension, especially in online learning environments.

Teachers use discourse markers to encourage students, but they can also limit further interaction.

Pushed output, inspired by Merrill Swain, encourages students to produce more complex responses.

Classroom management and organization are intertwined with the language teachers use.

The language used in teaching should align with pedagogical goals to promote effective learning.

Display questions are common in classrooms, but referential questions can foster more genuine student engagement.

Rebalancing questioning techniques to include more referential questions can enhance student interaction.

Classroom discourse differs from everyday conversation due to institutional rules and roles.

The teacher's role in the classroom can vary and should be adapted to match teaching goals.

External factors such as curriculum and examinations influence the teacher's role and classroom discourse.

Understanding and varying the teacher's role can lead to more effective teaching practices.

The quality of teacher talk is more important than the quantity in promoting learning.

Classroom discourse, while not authentic in the same way as everyday conversation, has its own norms and practices.

Transcripts

hi everyone welcome back the TEFL

training institute podcast this week we

are looking at interactions that happen

in the classroom we're talking about

classroom discourse and to help us do

that we have Steve Walsh professor of

applied linguistics at Newcastle

University

Steve's were in extensively several

books and many many articles about

classroom discourse how it affects unit

learning and how teachers can use

classroom discourse as a starting point

for the professional development I hope

you enjoyed today's episode

[Music]

[Applause]

I Steve thanks very much for joining us

to begin with Steve what is classroom

discourse or classroom discourses the

basically covers all the interactions

which take place in any classroom and

its use interchangeably quite frequently

in the literature you'll see people talk

about interaction you'll see the book

about classroom discourse or classroom

discourse is the actual recording the

observation the transcript all of that

constitutes mastering discuss and what

we're really interested in in certainly

in my work anyway are the interactions

between teacher and students and the

reason we're interested in it is because

it shows us what's actually happening in

a classroom it gives us a clue as to

whether anything is being taught or

learned you can't study learning by

looking inside people's heads but you

can actually make a lot of inferences as

I suppose by looking at what people do

and what people say so that's that's the

kind of the essence of classroom

discourse and also one of the reasons

for studying it in terms of those

interactions then like what do we know

about what usually or what often happens

how do teachers typically interact with

their students and what are some of the

common purposes that teachers use

teacher talk for sure yeah I mean we're

we're interested in the what you might

call the teaching practices which take

place in the classroom and all of these

practices such as asking a question or

correcting an error these practices are

encompassed in language right you can't

actually do these things without using

language so we have for example in in

some of my work which I'll talk about

later we've identified a number of these

practices which are frequently occurring

which are found in any classroom

anywhere in the world which merit study

so let's take the most frequently

occurring ones these would be

elicitation so elicitation is about

basically trying to get your students to

say something by asking a question for

example which is the most commonly used

elicitation strategy the second one

would be repair which would be the ways

in which we correct errors something

that teachers do all the time is error

correction and there are huge debates of

course around this as to whether we

should correct every error or not the

third one which is perhaps the most

important one in many ways is feedback

and the feedback that we give to our

students and that students give to us is

hugely important because it tells us

what's going on and right now for

example in the current situation with

kovat we're all working online and we're

teaching online and we're not getting

the feedback that we do depend on from

our students so for example if we don't

get visual clues if we don't get head

nods and smiles and raised eyebrows and

these kind of multimodal features we

don't know really whether they're

actually understanding us or learning

anything and similarly the feedback that

we give to our students the ways in

which we add knowledge a contribution

for example so typically teachers say

things like yes good thank you

excellent right that kind of thing right

these discourse markers these simple

single words although they're used to

encourage and motivate they can actually

close the interaction down and signal

the end of a turn so although they are

well meant in the work I'm doing I'm

suggesting that we need to push learners

a little bit and say things like oh

that's really interesting can you tell

us a bit more about that so we get what

I'm calling pushed output using Merrill

Swain's word output from our students

and finally you know all the stuff that

we do which is clusters management of

learning giving instructions organizing

setting up pair work bringing a task to

a conclusion all of these things are

what we would call teaching practices

but they are absolutely interlinked with

the language that we use so what's

really important here is to understand

that the language we use and the

pedagogical that we're trying to achieve

the pedagogical of the

they have to work together so if my

pedagogy goal is to promote fluency and

I'm simply asking yes/no questions

there's a mismatch between my language

and my pedagogical if my pedagogy goal

is to give a grammatical explanation

about a point of grammar then it's

absolutely fine to talk at length and

have what you might call a high level of

teacher talk so we're interested in the

quality of teacher talk rather than the

quantity were interested in the extent

to which our language and our

interaction promote learning so maybe we

can drill down a bit deeper into some of

those concepts and Steve I mean look at

magic questions for a second I think

before we book it on the podcast about

how useful it is for teachers to ask

questions to students that they don't

know the answers to yeah do you want to

tell us a bit more about those kind of

questions and also display questions

where our teachers are students

questions that they already know the

answers to

or those sometimes useful or sometimes

appropriate or or does it already just

depend it depends well okay so with

regard to questions we ask a lot of

questions you know there have been

various studies on this to calculate the

percentage time that teachers actually

devote to asking questions and it's it's

huge its enormous and then you know one

kind of question for ourselves is

perhaps do we always need to ask a

question other other ways of eliciting a

response when I first started teaching

we used to use flashcards for example to

elicit responses there are ways of doing

this but let's stay with questions for a

minute basically I would I would divide

questions into two types display

questions and referential questions

right so display questions are questions

that we use to get our students to

display what they know there are prompt

and display questions or questions that

we as teachers know the answer to

they're not the kind of question you

would ask your family or friends because

your family your friends would think you

were crazy if you kept asking them

questions that you knew the answer to

but in classrooms it's okay to ask

display questions because they prompt

and they

elicit they try to encourage some some

kind of response the problem is that we

ask too many in my work we ask a lot of

us display questions where in fact

sometimes we should and could be asking

the other type of question which are

referential questions referential

questions are simply genuine questions

that we don't know the answer to

questions such as what did you do over

the weekend how did you spend Saturday

have you ever been to Paris you know

these types of questions which are

genuine and real in the central part of

human communication so what I'm

suggesting is that we need to rebalance

questioning and perhaps try to

incorporate more genuine questions of

our students and fewer display questions

you'll hear people talk about these as

open and closed as well and some people

including my colleague at Newcastle

ports Heath House would suggest that

every question in the classroom is some

kind of display question because it's

there for a purpose it's designed to get

a response from our students rather than

the normal purpose of questions which is

to access information and find out about

things so some people would argue you

can't actually ask a genuine question I

think you can and I think we should

because it shows an interest in our

students and it shows that we're

listening to what they're saying

and where we're interested we're

genuinely interested you mentioned there

how your friends and family would look

at you very strangely if you ask them a

display question you know what colors

does pay and how many shoes are there

that kind of thing and obviously that

that's true but that suggests that

there's a difference between how

teachers interact with students inside

the classroom and how they interact with

other people outside of the classroom so

can you tell us a bit more about that

and is it ever really possible for

classroom interactions to and classroom

communication to be similar or to mirror

what's going on in the real world hmm

okay well the simple answer is he can't

interactions in the classroom are bound

by rules

we're talking here to use a little bit

of technical language we're talking

about an institutional discourse setting

an institutional discourse means any

situation within an institution which

has got its own rules so for example a

visit to the doctor you know you go to

the doctor it would be unusual for you

to say to the doctor how are you today

but it's absolutely fine for the doctor

to say to you how are you and what can I

do for you

right so these rules that apply restrict

the kind of interaction that we can have

in the classroom and some people say

it's not genuine but the other way of

looking at it is to say that the

classroom is as much a social setting as

any other it's a place where people come

they have a goal or institutional

discourse is goal oriented we have a

purpose for being there we have roles

and in the in the roles that we have we

have in a classroom the roles are

asymmetrical they're not equal so the

teacher is the authority figure and they

have control of the discourse for

example these roles and the rules roles

and rules if you like in a classroom

restrict the kinds of discourse that

we're going to get and they limit us to

certain patterns but that's actually

quite interesting because then we can

say well what is an appropriate

interaction in a classroom and why is a

less appropriate type of interaction so

although on the one hand classroom

interaction classroom discourse it's not

authentic and can never be genuine in

the same way that an interaction with a

friend can be on the other hand it's a

social setting which has certain norms

and practices which can be studied and

that's what makes it useful in terms of

understanding teaching and learning

better she mentioned there the idea of

rules and rules let's talk about the

rules a little bit more how so set and

stone are those teacher roles Steve like

they obviously must change a little bit

depending on the culture maybe the part

of the world that you're teaching in but

I wonder if they're also influenced by

other things like the expectations of

students or even just influenced by what

it is that the teachers are teaching

yeah

as a good question and and this is

really very much about the socialization

of learning that we're all socialized

into behaving in certain ways in

classrooms right

typically we expect to answer questions

rather than ask questions we expect to

sit quietly for much of the time we we

expect what our hands up when we want to

say something or answer a question these

are the rules if you like the social

rules of the classroom and of course

these vary from one context to another

if you go to some parts of the world the

Middle East the Far East possibly South

America places like that then the role

of the teacher is very much seen as a

traditional role in some people's eyes

in other words they are there to impart

knowledge in other parts of the world

the role of the teacher might be seen in

quite a different way as somebody who's

there as a facilitator as a catalyst

somebody who can help people learn but

in a more possibly informal way now I

don't think these two contexts that I've

just described are mutually exclusive

and in the work that I do I talk about

micro context which very as a lesson

progresses and the teachers role and the

interactions that unfold after vary

according to what's going on in the

classroom according to the agenda the

teaching goals of the moment so at one

point in a lesson you might be

dominating the interaction for 10 or 15

minutes while you give an explanation or

give some instructions at another moment

in the lesson you might be taking more

of a back seat and letting the students

get on with something and interact

together but what's important I think

for good teaching is to learn how to

vary the role that you adopt and match

the role according to what you're trying

to achieve that with the students at

that point in time and some people are

good at this and I'm afraid some are not

and some people feel that they have to

remain as the authority figure that what

the literature would refer to as the

sage on the stage the one who has

all the knowledge especially language

classrooms I think it's probably a

mistake to completely follow that rule

the other thing of course is that

teachers are earned pressure from

outside the classroom and this perhaps

influences their role very strongly as

well they're under pressure from parents

from head teachers perhaps the

curriculum assessment and the

examinations all these kind of external

invisible or hidden factors have an

important effect on how we behave in

classrooms and the kind of role that we

adopt

[Laughter]

[Music]

one more time everyone that was Steve

Walsh if you'd like to find out more

from Steve check out his books and

articles there's a list on Steve's

University of Newcastle page which I'll

put a link to if you'd like to find out

more from us please go to our website

www.jfn.co.jp/toho