Plato, The Republic Book X on Art

Summary

In the dialogue 'The Republic,' Plato, through Socrates, argues that art, particularly imitative arts like poetry and painting, is twice removed from truth as it imitates appearances rather than reality. Socrates suggests that artists lack knowledge of the true nature of what they depict and can negatively influence the soul by strengthening the inferior parts of emotions and appetites over reason. This perspective has influenced Western views on art, with parallels seen in modern critiques of mass media like television.

Takeaways

• 🎨 In Plato's 'The Republic', Socrates argues that an ideal city should exclude poets as they represent the imitative arts, which are considered inferior in the hierarchy of reality.
• 📚 Plato introduces the concept of 'forms' or 'eidos', which are perfect, eternal, and immaterial realities that are the true essence of all things, as opposed to the changeable material world.
• 🖌️ Art, particularly imitative arts like poetry and painting, is seen as a third category, below the forms and the material objects (articles), as it imitates the imitations of reality.
• 👤 Socrates criticizes artists for lacking knowledge or correct opinion about what they imitate, suggesting that their work is devoid of truth and virtue.
• 👣 The imitative nature of art is considered twice removed from the truth, as it does not imitate reality but the sensory world, which is itself an imitation of the forms.
• 🤝 Socrates believes that artists do not need to understand or use the objects they depict, unlike craftsmen who must have intimate knowledge to create functional items.
• 🧠 Plato's view of the soul as tripartite—comprising reason, spirit, and appetite—suggests that art appeals to the lower parts of the soul, potentially weakening reason.
• 🌐 Socrates warns that the influence of art can have negative effects on individuals, strengthening the inferior parts of the soul and thus undermining rationality.
• 📺 The script draws a parallel between Plato's critique of poetry and modern concerns about the impact of mass media, such as television, on society.
• 🔍 The discussion invites contemplation on the enduring relevance of Plato's ideas about art and its influence on human psychology and societal values.

Q & A

Why does Socrates argue that poets should be excluded from the ideal city in Plato's 'The Republic'?

Socrates argues that poets should be excluded because they imitate appearances rather than reality, and their art is twice removed from the truth. Additionally, he believes that the arts can have a negative influence on the soul by strengthening the inferior parts of the soul.

What is the term 'techne' in the context of ancient Greek art?

In ancient Greek, 'techne' referred to any kind of human activity, including crafts, sciences, and what we now consider fine arts. It was a broader concept than our modern understanding of art.

What are 'forms' or 'eidos' in Plato's philosophy as discussed in 'The Republic'?

Forms or 'eidos' in Plato's philosophy are immaterial, eternal, immutable, and timeless entities that represent the ultimate reality. They are perfect and supersensible, existing beyond the physical world and are the true essence of things.

How does Socrates differentiate between the reality of forms and the reality of material objects?

Socrates differentiates by stating that material objects are imitations of the forms, which are the true reality. Material objects are changeable and perceptible through the senses, while forms are perfect and can only be grasped through thought.

What is the third category of reality that Socrates introduces in 'The Republic'?

The third category of reality that Socrates introduces is art, specifically the imitative arts like poetry and painting, which are considered to be an imitation of the material objects that are themselves imitations of the forms.

Why does Socrates believe that artists lack knowledge or correct opinion about what they imitate?

Socrates believes that artists lack knowledge or correct opinion because they do not need to understand the true nature or function of what they are imitating; they only need to mimic the appearance, which is a second-hand imitation of the true forms.

What is the tripartite view of the soul as described by Socrates in 'The Republic'?

The tripartite view of the soul consists of three parts: reason (the rational part), spirited (associated with emotions), and appetitive (seeking to meet basic material needs). Socrates argues that art appeals to the spirited and appetitive parts, which are inferior and should be guided by reason.

How does Socrates' view on art relate to modern critiques of mass media like television?

Socrates' view on art can be seen as analogous to modern critiques of mass media like television, where it is argued that excessive consumption can lead to laziness, poor moral judgment, and a more passive citizenry, thus negatively affecting the rational part of the soul.

What is the role of the rational part of the soul according to Socrates?

According to Socrates, the rational part of the soul is the best part, capable of accessing the forms and gaining truth. It should be in control, guiding the spirited and appetitive parts, rather than being directed by them.

How does the imitative nature of art affect the soul according to Socrates?

Socrates believes that the imitative nature of art affects the soul by strengthening the inferior parts, the spirited and appetitive parts, which should be controlled by reason. This can lead to a weakening of the rational part and a distortion of the soul's proper order.

What is the significance of the dialogue between Socrates and the host in the context of the discussion on art?

The dialogue serves as a contemporary example of how the imitative nature of art can be perceived as lacking in depth and understanding, mirroring Socrates' critique of artists' lack of knowledge in 'The Republic'.

Outlines

00:00

🎨 Plato's View on Art and Imitation

In the dialogue 'The Republic', Socrates, as portrayed by Plato, argues against the inclusion of poets in an ideal city. This is rooted in Plato's philosophical stance that the physical world is an imitation of a higher, eternal reality known as 'forms' or 'eidos'. Socrates suggests that artists, including poets and painters, create works that are imitations of these already imperfect material objects, thus being twice removed from the true forms. This places art at a lower tier of reality and truth. Socrates criticizes artists for lacking the deep knowledge that craftsmen possess about the objects they create, implying that artists merely mimic appearances without understanding the essence of what they depict.

05:03

📚 Socrates on the Negative Impact of Art

Socrates' critique of artists extends to their impact on society. He posits that art, particularly imitative arts like poetry and painting, can have detrimental effects on individuals by appealing to the lower parts of the soul—emotions and appetites—rather than reason. According to Socrates, the soul is tripartite, consisting of reason, spiritedness, and appetites, with reason being the highest part. Art, by engaging the emotional and appetitive aspects, can weaken reason, which should ideally govern the soul. This perspective is likened to modern critiques of mass media, such as television, which are said to foster passivity and misguided values, echoing Socrates' concerns about the corrupting influence of art.

10:04

🌐 Contemporary Relevance of Plato's Philosophy on Art

The video script concludes with a bridge to modern philosophy and its relation to art, suggesting that Plato's ideas on the inferior status of art and its potential to corrupt are not entirely alien to contemporary discussions. The script points to an article by philosopher Alexander Nehamas, which draws parallels between Socrates' views on poetry and current debates on the negative effects of television. This comparison underscores the enduring relevance of Plato's philosophy in understanding the role and influence of art and media in society. The script also invites viewers to explore further through a playlist on the Philosophy of Art and Aesthetics and the Overthink podcast, which delves into various aspects of art and its philosophical implications.

Keywords

💡Ideal City

In the context of Plato's 'The Republic,' an ideal city represents a utopian vision where justice and order are paramount. Socrates suggests that poets should be excluded from this ideal city because their art, being an imitation of reality, could potentially corrupt the citizens by appealing to their emotions and appetites rather than reason. This concept is central to understanding Plato's view on the role of art in society.

💡Aesthetics

Aesthetics refers to the study of beauty and art, including the appreciation and creation of beauty. In the video, the term is used to discuss the influence of Plato's ideas on Western understanding of art. The script mentions an 'Aesthetics Anthology' used by Professor Ellie Anderson, indicating that aesthetics is a field that explores the nature of art and its impact on human perception and culture.

💡Forms or Eidos

In Platonic philosophy, 'Forms' or 'Eidos' are abstract, immaterial entities that represent the essence of all things. They are perfect, eternal, and unchanging, and they serve as the ultimate reality from which all physical objects are derived as mere imitations. The video explains that material objects are seen as imitations of these higher forms, and art is considered a further step removed from truth as it imitates the imitations.

💡Imitation

Imitation, as discussed in the video, is the act of replicating or representing something. In Plato's view, art is an imitation of the physical world, which itself is an imitation of the true reality (the Forms). This concept is crucial as it forms the basis of Socrates' argument for the exclusion of poets and artists from the ideal city, as their work is seen as a secondary imitation, distant from the truth.

💡Tripartite Soul

The 'tripartite soul' is a concept from Plato's philosophy, which divides the human soul into three parts: reason, spirit, and appetite. In the video, this concept is used to explain how art can have a negative impact on individuals by strengthening the spirited and appetitive parts at the expense of reason, which Socrates believes should be the guiding force of the soul.

💡Poets

Poets, in the context of the video, are representatives of the imitative arts. Socrates argues that they should be excluded from the ideal city because their work does not contribute to the rational development of citizens and can potentially corrupt them by appealing to their lower soul parts. The video uses poets as a specific example of artists whose work is deemed problematic by Platonic standards.

💡Art

Art, as discussed in the video, encompasses the imitative arts such as poetry and painting. It is considered by Socrates to be a lower form of creation because it imitates the physical world, which is already an imitation of the true reality (the Forms). The video explores the philosophical implications of this view, suggesting that art can have a corrupting influence on the soul.

💡Reason

Reason, in Plato's philosophy, represents the rational part of the soul and is seen as the highest part, capable of perceiving the Forms and thus attaining truth. The video emphasizes the importance of reason in guiding the soul, suggesting that art can undermine reason by catering to the lower parts of the soul, such as emotions and appetites.

💡Appetitive Part

The 'appetitive part' of the soul, as mentioned in the video, refers to the part that seeks to satisfy basic material needs and desires. Socrates argues that art can strengthen this part of the soul, which is seen as inferior to reason, leading to a corruption of the individual's moral and intellectual development.

💡Overthink Podcast

The 'Overthink Podcast' is referenced in the video as a platform where similar discussions on art and aesthetics take place. It is used as an example of contemporary discourse that parallels ancient philosophical debates, such as those found in Plato's 'The Republic,' showing the enduring relevance of these ideas in modern cultural critique.

Highlights

Plato's dialogue The Republic suggests an ideal city would exclude poets.

Professor Ellie Anderson introduces ideas about art from Plato's Republic.

The concept of aesthetics, coined in the 18th century, did not exist in ancient Greece.

Ancient Greeks used the term 'techne' for art, which included crafts and sciences.

Plato's views on art have influenced Western culture's understanding of art.

Socrates proposes that everyday objects are imitations of a higher, eternal reality.

The higher reality consists of 'forms' or 'eidos', the origin of the word 'idea'.

Forms are perfect, immaterial, and supersensible, existing beyond the senses.

Art, particularly imitative arts like poetry and painting, is considered an imitation of an imitation.

Artists are criticized for not having knowledge or correct opinion about what they imitate.

Socrates argues that artists do not need to understand the function of what they depict.

Art is seen as having a negative effect on the soul by strengthening inferior parts.

Socrates' tripartite view of the soul includes reason, spirit, and appetite.

Imitative arts are said to destroy reason and should be protected against.

Modern critiques of mass media echo Plato's arguments against poetry.

Alexander Nehamas draws parallels between Plato's views and modern media consumption.

Professor Anderson recommends exploring more on Philosophy of Art and Aesthetics through her playlist and podcast.

Transcripts

In Plato's dialogue The Republic, Socrates  famously says that an ideal city would not  

include poets. What's going on here? I'm Professor  Ellie Anderson, co-host of Overthink podcast,  

and I'm here today to introduce some ideas about  art from Plato's Republic using the Aesthetics  

Anthology that I'm also using in some of my  other videos on Aesthetics because it's the  

one that I've taught in the past. For starters,  I just want to remind those of you who might not  

have watched the Introduction to Philosophy  of Art video that it's a bit anachronistic  

to talk about Plato as having an aesthetics or  Socrates even as having an aesthetics because  

aesthetics itself is a term that's coined in the  18th century and the ancient Greeks had a very  

different concept of what counted as art than we  do their word for art, techne, didn't just refer  

to what we consider the fine arts but also to all  kinds of human activities including crafts and  

sciences. That said what the Republic says about  the arts has been hugely influential for the way  

that Western culture has understood art since in  the intervening Millennia. In Plato's Republic the  

character of Socrates suggests that the things  that we see around us in our everyday lives,  

the material objects of our everyday reality  are actually imitations of a higher reality:  

a reality that is beyond the senses that  is eternal immutable and timeless and that  

ultimate reality is comprised of what are known  as forms or eidos in Greek also where we get  

the origin of the word idea so sometimes the  forms are referred to as ideas. The forms are  

immaterial singular and supersensible right  they're beyond the senses they can be thought  

but they can't be seen even though there's a  longer and very interesting story here about  

how Plato's language of the forms often resorts  to visual metaphors we actually talk about that  

in my podcast Overthink in the episode of vision  if that interests you. In any case the forms are  

characterized by perfection right they are perfect  and they are ultimately real: they're not going to  

decay the way that this plant is going to decay or  these books are going to decay or even that rock  

because they exist in this supersensible realm an  immaterial realm. The forms Socrates says in this  

dialogue are created by God and their nature is  reality truth and nature in the ultimate sense,  

as opposed to this second category of things  which is the things that we're surrounded by  

in everyday life which are called here articles.  An article is created by a carpenter or some other  

skilled literal human worker and the nature  of these articles is the nature of appearance  

or image. Appearances are changeable not only  do the articles themselves degrade over time  

but we can also have different perspectives on  them by moving around say to the other side of  

an object so there's these two levels we might  say of reality the forms and the articles, and  

the articles have to do with material reality that  we see and perceive otherwise through our senses.  

However, Socrates also suggests that there is this  third category this third level which is below  

the forms and below the level of the article and  this is art. Specifically what are called here the  

imitative arts including poetry and painting so  not necessarily talking about architecture here.  

The imitative arts Socrates suggests are created  by an artist and their nature is imitation:  

if I am drawing a shoe for example I am imitating  a shoe that I see in my everyday life or perhaps  

an imagined shoe either way I'm imitating  an article I'm imitating a shoe that I could  

literally or at least hypothetically perceive  with my senses so I'm imitating the second level  

of reality that Socrates is talking about here  this means though that I'm not actually imitating  

reality in the true sense when I'm creating an  artwork: I am imitating an imitation of reality  

because the article the material thing that I  see in the real world is itself an imitation of  

the immaterial supersensible form. So Socrates  concludes that art is twice removed from the  

truth, because it is an imitation of appearance  rather than an imitation of reality. One of the  

things that Socrates really doesn't like about  artists here is that in imitating an appearance  

they don't necessarily have to have knowledge  of that appearance as it is. So the shoemaker  

has to have intimate knowledge of what  the function purpose of a shoe is but --

Oh thank you! Were you guys in Hawaii? Yeah, just  got back last night. How was it? It was great!  

I had a show with the Blue Note in  Waikiki. Amazing! That went really  

well and we made a vacation out  of it. I love it. Have a good one!  

So one of the things that Socrates really doesn't  like about artists is that he thinks they don't  

have to have any intimate knowledge of what  they are depicting, in order to depict it. The  

shoemaker has to have intimate knowledge of the  function, the purpose, of a shoe. Not only does  

the shoemaker presumably use shoes, but they also  know how to make shoes. The artist, on the other  

hand, doesn't need to have ever worn a shoe in  their lives and let alone know how to make it:  

they can just paint what they see. And so Socrates  says, for instance, each single thing involves  

three particular acts: to use the thing, to  make the thing, and to imitate the thing. And  

the artist only needs to imitate the thing they  don't need to be able to make or use the thing.  

He throws Homer under the bus here and he says  that Homer, who wrote about wars, you know,  

created these epic poems, the Iliad and the  Odyssey, that were for a long time spoken in this  

amazing oral tradition of ancient Greek poetry,  might have written about wars but he didn't win  

any wars, he didn't invent anything, and he didn't  educate anyone. Major burden to Homer. Obviously,  

Socrates very negative depiction of the artist. He  also said the artists are not good people because  

if they were they would do better things than  create art. In fact, he says that artists don't  

have knowledge or correct opinion about what they  imitate. And so they're just kind of out there  

imitating things willy-nilly without any virtue or  understanding of what they're imitating. No wonder  

he wants to exclude the poets from the city. But  there's another component which is the effect that  

the artists have on people. According to Socrates,  not only are artists bad people but they also have  

negative effects on the population: because the  people who are experiencing art, listening to it,  

viewing it, etc., are actually strengthening  inferior parts of their soul while weakening  

the stronger part of their soul. This argument  depends on another view of Socrates which is not  

specifically related to art which is a view of the  soul, and specifically the tripartite soul, which  

he describes here in the dialogue The Republic  as well as in other dialogues too. The tripartite  

view of the soul suggests that the soul the human  soul is made up of three parts: there is reason,  

the rational part of the soul, which is the best  part of the soul this is the part of the soul that  

can access the forms this super sensible realm  of thought and thereby gain truth; the second  

is the spirited part of the soul, which is more or  less associated with what we would call emotions;  

and the third is the appetitive part of the soul,  which is the part of the soul that is seeking to  

have its basic material needs met. According  to Socrates, art plays on our emotions and our  

appetites in such a way that the spirited and  appetitive parts of the soul are strengthened.  

But these are the inferior parts of the soul and  in fact they are two horses that should be guided  

by the chariot rider of reason. So reason needs  to be in control: the spirited and appetitive  

parts of the soul should be directed by  reason rather than doing the directing.  

Art because it pertains to an imitation of an  imitation and plays to the emotions, etc., is not  

rational but plays to these parts of the soul. In  fact Socrates says that the imitative arts destroy  

reason, and therefore people need to be protected  from imitative art. Now, this view of the art  

might seem a little bit strange, right? Like,  the poets and imitative artists are absolutely  

terrible! But in a really interesting more  recent article called Plato and the Mass Media,  

the philosopher Alexander Nehamas points out that  you see similar arguments today when it comes to  

people watching television. Nehamas points out  that common critiques of the negative effects of  

watching too much TV often trade on really similar  arguments to the ones that Socrates proposes  

against poetry in the Republic. For instance,  the idea that television is making us lazy, it's  

making us worse people by causing us to value the  wrong things in life, It's causing us to be more  

passive citizens rather than actually allowing our  reason to guide our lives, and so on and so forth.  

I recommend checking out that article if you want:  it's really a careful reading of Plato and also  

has quite a few fun analogs to the present day.  But I like to mention that in this context, just  

to show that such a denunciation of poetry and  other imitative arts which might seem very foreign  

to us today, you can see in different forms  actually in the present day. For more approaches  

to the Philosophy of Art and Aesthetics check out  this playlist and you can also listen to overthink  

podcasts because we have a number of episodes  where we discuss art in the catalog as well.