The Evolution of Blockchain Infrastructure and Revenue Models with Velar

Summary

In this discussion, Julian from Marathon's innovation unit, Duro, interviews M from V, the founder of Val, about the challenges and dynamics of building a Layer 2 (L2) solution for Bitcoin. M uses the analogy of the evolution of web infrastructure to explain the shift towards L2s with native revenue models, criticizing Ethereum's inability to scale due to power dynamics. He advocates for a user-centric approach where L2s act as supportive governments to applications. The conversation touches on the importance of community, the influx of builders into the Bitcoin ecosystem, and the technical requirements for L2s, like low latency and reliable oracles. M shares his journey, the challenges of funding, and offers advice for new builders to stay true to their vision and be prepared for the right timing in the crypto wave.

Takeaways

• 🌐 The conversation revolves around the development of Layer 2 (L2) solutions for Bitcoin, emphasizing the importance of infrastructure that can scale and support a growing ecosystem.
• 🚀 M, the founder of Val, discusses the evolution from Web 1.0 to Web 3.0, highlighting how infrastructure protocols now have the ability to generate revenue through native coins.
• 💡 M uses an analogy comparing the power dynamics in Web 3.0 to those in traditional business, suggesting that L2 infrastructures should act as a supportive government, not controlling entities.
• 🔄 M criticizes Ethereum for its inability to scale due to power dynamics where infrastructure controls the narrative, leading to isolation and lack of user focus.
• 🏦 The discussion points out the need for L2 solutions to be agnostic and user-centric, integrating multiple infrastructures seamlessly to provide a good user experience.
• 🤝 Julian and M agree on the importance of building products with genuine community engagement and the challenges of finding builders truly committed to the Bitcoin ecosystem.
• 🌱 M reflects on the rapid growth and trendiness in the Bitcoin space, noting the influx of builders looking to catch the wave, but also emphasizing the need for a community-focused approach.
• 🛠️ Technical aspects of building on L2 solutions are discussed, with a focus on the need for low latency, reliable oracles, and stable coins to support yield-bearing products.
• 🔮 M shares his journey and the challenges of fundraising in the crypto space, highlighting the importance of having a clear 'why' and being prepared for the right timing.
• 🌟 The conversation concludes with M's bold prediction that by the end of 2025, Bitcoin DeFi could surpass Ethereum, driven by a strong community of builders and believers in Bitcoin's potential.

Q & A

What is the analogy M from V uses to describe building a layer two?

M from V uses the analogy of the evolution of the internet to describe building a layer two. He explains that during the web 1.0 era, infrastructure protocols like HTTP and TCP/IP laid the foundation without direct revenue streams. However, with the advent of web 3.0 and platforms like Ethereum, infrastructure could generate revenue through native tokens, which was a significant shift from the past.

Why does M consider Ethereum a 'failure' in the context of scaling?

M refers to Ethereum as a 'failure' not because it is inherently bad, but because it has not been able to scale effectively due to a power dynamic issue. He argues that Ethereum's infrastructure has controlled the narrative and isolated applications and users, which has hindered its ability to scale.

What is the vision for layer two scalability according to M?

M envisions a future where layer two infrastructures act as a supportive government, while applications are the businesses that provide services to users, who are the true decision-makers. He emphasizes that applications should integrate multiple infrastructures seamlessly without user awareness, similar to how applications like Instagram are available across various platforms.

How does M perceive the current state of Bitcoin DeFi compared to Ethereum?

M believes that the Bitcoin DeFi ecosystem is moving very fast and has the potential to surpass Ethereum by the end of 2025. He notes the rapid development of products and the commitment of Bitcoin builders, which he sees as a significant advantage over other ecosystems.

What is M's perspective on the role of infrastructure in the Bitcoin ecosystem?

M sees infrastructure in the Bitcoin ecosystem as a service provider to applications, which in turn serve users. He stresses the importance of infrastructure being agnostic to specific layer two solutions and focused on providing a good user experience and stability.

Why is the community aspect important to M when discussing Bitcoin DeFi?

M emphasizes that builders in the Bitcoin DeFi space should be community-focused, listening to their needs, and building products that cater to those needs. He believes that this community-centric approach will help filter out projects that are not genuinely committed to the ecosystem.

What challenges does M face as an L2 builder in finding product builders like himself within Bitcoin?

M finds it challenging to find product builders within the Bitcoin ecosystem who are committed to building sustainable products and have a robust community. He notes that many builders are transient, focusing on token raises rather than creating valuable products.

How does M view the importance of oracles in the context of his company's products?

M considers oracles to be critical for his company's yield-bearing products, as they provide real-time price data from various sources to ensure accurate trade execution. He highlights the need for multiple, reliable oracles to maintain a good user experience.

What advice does M have for new builders entering the Bitcoin ecosystem?

M advises new builders to keep their intentions right and focus on building for the community rather than chasing trends or quick profits. He also stresses the importance of being prepared to ride the wave of opportunity when it arises, rather than trying to create it.

What is M's prediction for the Bitcoin DeFi ecosystem's growth?

M predicts that by the end of 2025, it's very possible for Bitcoin DeFi to surpass Ethereum in terms of growth and adoption. He bases this on the rapid development and the strong belief of Bitcoin builders in the ecosystem.

Outlines

00:00

🚀 Introduction to Layer 2 Scaling and Bitcoin Ecosystem

The conversation starts with Julian and M discussing the evolution of the Bitcoin ecosystem and the challenges of scaling. M draws an analogy between the early days of the internet and the current state of Layer 2 solutions on Bitcoin. He explains how the infrastructure layer, which once had no revenue model, now has the ability to generate revenue through native tokens. However, M criticizes the power dynamics that have emerged where infrastructure layers control the narrative and isolate applications and users. He sees Ethereum's inability to scale as a failure due to these dynamics and advocates for a model where infrastructure serves the users, who are the true 'king makers,' and applications are built on top to cater to their needs without them being aware of the underlying Layer 2 complexities.

05:00

🤔 The Challenge of Finding Genuine Builders in the Bitcoin Ecosystem

M shares his perspective on the difficulty of finding builders within the Bitcoin ecosystem who are genuinely interested in building for the community rather than just chasing trends or quick profits. He observes a trend where many builders are just trying to catch the wave of new opportunities without a deep commitment to the community's needs. M believes that over time, the crypto ecosystem will filter out those with bad intentions, leaving behind those who are truly dedicated to building for the community. He also discusses the differences between the Enduro team and other L2 builders, highlighting Enduro's commitment to listening to and addressing user issues as a key differentiator.

10:04

💡 Technical Requirements for Building on Layer 2

The discussion shifts to the technical aspects required for building yield-bearing products on Layer 2. M emphasizes the need for low latency, reliable oracles for real-time price fetching, and stable coins to ensure a smooth user experience. He uses the example of their product Perex, which is an AMM liquidity pool-style platform, to illustrate how oracles are used to optimize trade execution prices for users. M also touches on the importance of having multiple oracles as backups to ensure reliability and a good user experience.

15:05

🌊 Navigating the Crypto Wave and Building for the Community

In the final paragraph, M reflects on his journey as a builder in the crypto space, emphasizing the importance of having a clear 'why' and staying true to the community's needs. He shares his experience of going from being an outsider to a recognized builder in the Bitcoin ecosystem and the challenges of securing investment. M advises new builders to stay focused on their mission, not to chase waves or narratives, and to be prepared when opportunities arise. He also shares his optimism about the future of Bitcoin DeFi, predicting that by the end of 2025, it could surpass Ethereum in terms of adoption and innovation, driven by a community deeply committed to the success of Bitcoin.

Keywords

💡Layer Two (L2)

Layer Two refers to protocols and solutions built on top of an existing blockchain, aiming to enhance scalability and efficiency without compromising the underlying blockchain's security. In the video, the discussion revolves around the challenges and innovations in building Layer Two solutions for Bitcoin, particularly focusing on how they can scale the ecosystem and support decentralized applications (dApps) without centralizing power.

💡Bitcoin Ecosystem

The Bitcoin ecosystem encompasses all the elements related to Bitcoin, including the blockchain itself, its users, developers, applications, and the broader community. The video discusses the evolution of this ecosystem, especially in relation to Layer Two solutions and the potential for Bitcoin to surpass Ethereum in terms of decentralized finance (DeFi) adoption.

💡Infrastructure Protocols

Infrastructure protocols are the foundational technologies that support the operation of the internet and other networks. In the context of the video, the discussion goes back to Web 1.0 and how these protocols initially had no way to generate revenue. It contrasts this with the current Web 3.0 environment where infrastructure protocols, like those in the Ethereum network, can generate revenue through native tokens.

💡Revenue Streams

Revenue streams refer to the various sources through which income is generated. In the video, the concept is applied to the evolution of blockchain networks where native coins have introduced new revenue streams for infrastructure protocols, which was not the case in the early days of the internet.

💡Community Control

Community control in the blockchain context refers to the governance and decision-making power held by the community of users and developers. The video discusses how some Layer One (L1) blockchains have controlled the narrative and isolated themselves into communities, which has hindered scalability and user adoption.

💡Oracles

Oracles in blockchain are services that provide external data to smart contracts, enabling them to interact with the real world. In the video, the importance of oracles is highlighted for applications like decentralized exchanges, where they fetch real-time prices to facilitate trades and maintain accurate pricing within liquidity pools.

💡Stablecoins

Stablecoins are cryptocurrencies designed to minimize volatility relative to a stable asset, like a fiat currency. They are crucial in DeFi applications for providing price stability. The video mentions stablecoins as a necessary infrastructure for L2 solutions to support applications without causing user concern over value fluctuations.

💡Yield Bearing Products

Yield bearing products refer to financial instruments or platforms that generate returns for investors. In the video, the discussion includes yield bearing products like automated market makers (AMMs) and how they require robust infrastructure to manage the risk associated with trading and liquidity provision.

💡Decentralized Applications (dApps)

Decentralized applications are applications that run on a decentralized network, often leveraging blockchain technology. The video discusses the role of dApps in the Bitcoin ecosystem and how Layer Two solutions aim to support their growth by providing a scalable and efficient platform.

💡Proof of Work (PoW)

Proof of Work is a consensus algorithm used by blockchain networks like Bitcoin, where miners compete to solve complex mathematical problems to validate transactions and create new blocks. The video touches on the importance of Layer Two solutions being mindful of PoW to support the underlying security model of Bitcoin.

💡Bitcoin Finality

Bitcoin finality refers to the certainty that a transaction on the Bitcoin blockchain is irreversible after a certain number of confirmations. The video discusses how some Layer Two solutions are designed to be agnostic to the specific Layer One implementation but prioritize the finality provided by Bitcoin's consensus mechanism.

Highlights

Discussion on the evolution of web infrastructure and its impact on application layer funding.

Analogies drawn between web 1.0 infrastructure protocols and web3 native coin funding models.

Critique of Ethereum's scaling issues due to power dynamics and control over applications and users.

Vision for Bitcoin layer 2 (L2) ecosystems where infrastructure serves users rather than controlling them.

Emphasis on the importance of user experience and application layer independence from underlying infrastructure.

M's perspective on Ethereum as a 'learning tool' rather than a failure.

The challenge of finding builders within the Bitcoin ecosystem who are committed to community needs.

Observations on the transient nature of many builders in the Bitcoin space and the focus on quick token raises.

Discussion on the importance of listening to user needs and the role of L2 builders in the Bitcoin ecosystem.

Insights on the difference between L2 builders from Ethereum and those native to Bitcoin.

Technical requirements for yield-bearing products on L2 platforms, such as low latency and good oracles.

Importance of stablecoins and the role of oracles in providing real-time price data for trading platforms.

Advice for new builders in the Bitcoin ecosystem, focusing on having a clear 'why' and building for the community.

Reflections on the rapid change in market sentiment and the importance of timing in the crypto industry.

Predictions for Bitcoin DeFi to potentially surpass Ethereum by the end of 2025.

The unique passion and commitment of Bitcoin builders as a driving force for the ecosystem's success.

Transcripts

all right I'm joined here by m from V

founder of Val and a good personal

friend and my name is Julian uh leading

here at Duro an innovation unit within

Marathon so Mell let's just have a

conversation uh you have an amazing

analogy about what it takes to build a

layer two and I would love for you to

repeat it here hey Julian it's it's

always good to see you man uh yeah we

have been talking about this for almost

a year now um and it's it's great to see

how how Bitcoin ecosystem has panned out

in last one year you know uh by the the

first question you asked it's it's it's

a very long answer I I'll have to start

with a monologue go for it the

monologues Are Much appreciated see the

thing is um how I feel so we'll have to

we'll have to go 20 years back when web

1 happened uh there were there were

infrastructure protocols that were

building up the Bas info of of the

internet we see today like www TCP I uh

you know sgps but at that time this

infrastructure wouldn't have a way to

make Revenue so the infr layer wouldn't

make Revenue but then the application

layer came like Google Microsoft who

would literally uh fund this

infrastructure and while building the

applications but when web3 happened what

happened was that this infrastructure

now had a way to make Revenue through

their native coins so when in when

ethereum

came uh they had a native coin through

which they can build a community build

uh revenue streams so this was great

that for the first time in s web 1

infrastructure could make Revenue but we

got overboard when this infrastructures

started to control the narrative and

started to isolate themselves into

Community by controlling users and

applications on top of them so the power

Dynamic that uh we saw in web 3 on

ethereum D5 in last Almost a decade was

that there were a lot of l1s isolated

and they would control the applications

they wouldn't they would isolate those

applications and also they would uh

control the users so it that's why

didn't it didn't scale so according to

me ethereum is a failure for the only

reason that uh it couldn't scale def5

because of this power Dynamic issue

that's why I call ethereum as a tnut I

don't I don't call it a tnut because

it's bad but because uh we have to take

a lot of learnings from it so what we

are going through now is we are going

through the cycle of the Advent of D on

bitcoin and I think if we want to scale

Bitcoin D5 we have to break that power

Dynamic where infrastructure are in the

king makers users are the king makers

applications are below uh in the below

layer would cater to the needs of the

users who are the king makers with a

good user experience and the application

layer would have multiple infrastructure

integrated without the user even knowing

about it it's the same way as when you

use Instagram Instagram doesn't decide

to be only on app store or Play Store or

Windows or Linux you know they are on

multiple infrastructure so the so the

thesis behind uh Val also is that we are

L2 agnostic we are more we are merried

to the concept of Bitcoin finality but

we are uh not married to a single l so

how I see infrastructure and

applications working together in the

Bitcoin D5 space is that this L2

infrastructures they work as the

government and uh government of the I

and uh and applications are the business

running on top so it's not government's

job to take care of users it's a

business's job to give good user

experience to users to give uh good

services and products to users while

working with the government and

government taking care of the businesses

to make sure they have good inra they

have uh you know good land uh and they

provide good Services you know so this

is what I think about Bitcoin and we

really need to uh we really need to I

think if you want to scale as Bitcoin

defy it's very important if uh if we

break the B dynamic in E that we had and

and I hope it happens and that's how we

work towards it I completely agree with

you but one thing that I would ask is I

mean you're obviously a Founder within

the Bitcoin application space and you're

one of the few that is actually Building

Products that people are using there's

organic following on your Twitter um you

know you're somebody who wants to bring

something live you want people to

actually care about it I have got the

sense as an L2 Builder that trying to

find more Founders like yourself has

actually been pretty challenging within

Bitcoin you know there's a lot of people

that are coming in for like a fleeting

second and you know they're doing a a

brief token raise and moving on they're

not trying to build a product they don't

have a very robust Community but they're

here just kind of like throwing on apps

and you know open sourcing the GitHub

repo and hoping that people come and

follow is that your perception as well

do you feel like you're one of few or do

you feel like maybe they this might be a

place to actually go see SC those app

developers and other communities that

you're seeing as a Tesla what do you

think this is a controversial question

because I can say good I can say the

truth uh which might also not be uh not

be very well received and I can lie but

that's not a good thing I I genuinely I

but I'll say it to you because you're a

friend I genuinely think uh I think we

are moving very fast as Bitcoin

ecosystem and it's a trend it's a

narrative it's a trend so whenever a new

trend comes up a lot of uh a lot of

builders that we see and that that's how

crypto Works 90% of Builders are just

trying to catch a running bus are just

trying to catch the wave so yes it is

difficult to find good Builders who

really care for the community who really

work towards listening to what the

community needs and building products

for their needs so genuinely there are

few in in Bitcoin as of now but I think

we will go through this W of cycle where

a lot of products a lot of projects that

are building just for for the sake of

catching the wave will fade and uh and

crypto has its own way to filter out I

think crypto is a huge filter where of

course it allows a lot of people to try

but in in coming years it will filter

out a lot of people and Builders with

bad intentions with people who are not

who are not building for the community

but just building to make quick money so

I think we'll have to go through this

cycle as well well look and to be fair

to builders in Bitcoin I feel there is

also a similar Trend with L2 builders in

bit point where there's a lot of

transient teams that come and go and

they're just focused on the token raise

and they're not really trying to cater

to these Builders and there are others

like you mentioned that have this bit of

a power Dynamic I guess what do you see

differently with an Enduro and it could

be you know a negative answer could be a

positive answer but um you know from our

conversations in the past year what do

you see in this community in this pot

this you know early stage community that

that could be different from these other

l2s out

there I I think it's it's already

different because the way I I mean I

have been speaking to you for you know

since September last since IM 249 so uh

most there are a lot of Els in the

market I'll not name them of course but

they still have and they are coming from

e space or I don't know why or

traditional Finance space they they they

are they still live in this bubble of

the power dynamic they are not listening

but while I talk to the Enduro team

while I talk to you you guys listen and

because we are because we we work with

because we work directly with users the

problems or the issues we are facing are

users issues when we come at it's like

it's like when businesses who are

catering to uh catering to their

customers when they go and talk to uh a

government uh these are users problems

because businesses are just trying to

optimize their business for the users so

they can grow the business but there are

l2s in this space who think they have

the right they know everything and they

have the right decision- making power I

think that's the difference between a

lot of the l2s and Enduro that we can we

can just genuinely talk to you we can

talk to you about our problems about

scaling issues about the problem users

are facing I think it's it's this one

small thing but it makes a huge

difference in the long run I completely

agree I want to double click on a point

that you made that a lot of the l2s

coming into the market and Builders

generally they're not natively from

Bitcoin um you're obviously somebody who

I you know I know your entire you know

personality is Bitcoin Centric what do

you feel about builders that are coming

in that don't have that deep Bitcoin

expertise and I'm not trying to be

critical toward that because I feel the

only way the Bitcoin ecosystem grows is

by bringing Builders from other

communities but you know what what

advantage do these you know Bitcoin

novices have what disadvantages do they

have do you feel like a lot of Builders

are both Bitcoin Natives and not or you

think we're just moving into a direction

where the Bitcoin ecosystem is going to

be filled with unfamiliar faces to

General so I come from a non-bitcoin

ecosystem as well I I mean I was my

first business in crypto was uh running

an audit company for evm projects so uh

so but that gave me an advantage you

know because I even if I when I started

in Bitcoin I didn't know anybody in the

Bitcoin ecosystem like 1 and a half year

ago but you know now now we have a lot

of friends but the experience I had was

to build products build uh but the

community is same right when you uh in

in the crypto the users of the community

is same so I knew what the users need I

knew how to you know like how the smart

contracts functions and you know like

how how to build products for crypto

communities and stuff so so coming from

E ecosystem gave me an advantage um it

can be different Advantage for people

coming from Bitcoin ecosystem because

they might already know uh the movers in

the Bitcoin space it took us over a year

to build relationships with with a lot

of uh Bitcoin people because I had

relationships in the e space but I was

new to bitcoin space as well so I think

it's I think you have to I think it's

it's a matter of time you have to

understand your strength and weaknesses

as a builder and just act on it act like

push your strength forward and act on

your weaknesses yeah absolutely going on

to the technical side of things because

you I've met a lot of your team and you

guys are just hyperfocused on bringing

products to Market what are certain

technical Frameworks that you look for

on the stacks that you Deploy on I know

that you're deployed on a number of

other ecosystems but what would you say

are you know some minimum viable

characteristics so to speak that you

would expect to see on a stack that's

trying to stand B uh for sure so the the

kind of products we build are basically

yield bearing um products of course

every yield bearing product comes with a

risk there is no such thing as no risk

only yield product so like full

disclosure uh our products are amm P

taxes and and they need some basic infra

they need a infrastructure which has low

latency because you go through a lot of

transactions and you don't want to you

don't want the price difference to be

high uh you need good oracles so can

fetch prices from the market in real

time you need good stable coins uh so we

can uh cater to users without them

worrying about the stable coin daging

like these are some of the things that

all l2s should focus on before they

start attracting um apps as well because

or all all should work with apps and and

attract the infrastructure as well you

know I mean that's the challenge we're

facing is that you know when we when we

began this project a year plus ago the

thought was okay well we could just

build technology and when we have that

ready the builders will just come and

then we realize no actually there are

certain key Primitives you need stable

coins being one the Oracle point is an

interesting one because that's one that

the deeper I got the more I realized wow

that's almost as critical as the stable

Point itself could you explain and you

know now I want to give you an

opportunity to explain more about B but

how do you guys incorporate oracles

where does the stable points come into

bid you know you said it's amm per de so

I'm assuming the stable points are part

of the pools or part of the tradable

assets but how do you guys incorporate

ticals and maybe give me a high level

look at like the technical framework

behind Val and how it works sure so I

I'll give example of our perex which is

right now on testet on like multiple

chains and we are going live with main

net very soon uh in our perex it's it's

a it's a it's a it's a amm liquidity

pool style P so people there is a big

liquidity pool for a pair for example

it's a BTC usdt pan uh and that

liquidity pool uh basically consists of

a lot of LPS liquidity providers and

then there are uh and then people trade

on that pair on Leverage uh and when

people trade on that pair we have to

fetch prices from the market because if

you just fetch if you if you see a

normal amm where there is liquidity cool

rebalancing it might it might take more

time for the liquidity pool to rebalance

so you can't just rely on balancing the

price of the uh of of the execution of

that trade based on the liquidity pool

rebalancing so what Oracle does is

oracles are basically basically fetches

prices from multiple uh you know

multiple sources including centralized

exchanges decentralized exchanges

platforms like coin Geo and coin market

cap which which already uh they they

they cater to a lot of data from a lot

of resour from a lot of sources so what

it does is it tries to optimize the the

execution price for the trade that goes

through for the user you know so so

oracles are very important in that sense

and and good Oracle stable oracles and

backup oracles as well so you need

multiple oracles as well you can't just

rely on one Oracle because there is no

such product in the world which has 100%

uppr even Bitcoin Bitcoin has probably

the best like

99.9995% but like oracles have 98 to 99%

uh so you need backup or just to make

sure the user experience is good for the

trade for the traders who are executing

the trades you know so like that's how

it works yeah that makes sense what

advice kind of abstracting a little bit

what advice would you have for newer

builders on uro otherwise you know but

remember when we first were talking you

were at a much earlier stage with B I

mean I was a much earlier stage with

this um yeah for the journey any ways

that you think that other new Builders

could do it better than you did or you

know can get to product the product

Market bit faster um or would you just

tell the Builder hey here are the steps

follow what I did you know what would be

your

advice uh so I have been through the

Journey for over 1 and A2 years now and

and and and

brother what a ride we had like for

almost a year we were self-funded uh we

talked to over 80 we says nobody would

invest in us and and then in a month it

flipped in a way that we were 6X over

subscribed uh we closed our round

biggest ever uh investment ground for

Bitcoin at that time with 156 investors

on our cap table like it was crazy so

how so I think I I think from my uh from

my Lookout uh and from my journey how I

I would say a few things for a build

first of all like keep your uh keep your

why very correct like why you are

building it uh your intention should be

right for a long period of time I mean

for the farthest period of time and

things would fall into place in crypto

it's a lot about timing so you can't

it's like you are riding a wave you know

and you have to and you can't generate a

wave so it's like you have to be

prepared to write the wave but you can't

create the wave so but you have to be

ready when the wave arrives you know you

you can't chase a wave as well you have

to write the wave but when the wave

arrives you have to be ready so how I

look at it is that just keep your heads

down keep building for the right reasons

keep building for the community don't

chase don't chase the waves you know

that are coming don't chase the

narratives you have to believe in what

you're doing and you have to do it for

the right reasons and when the time will

come you know you will shine you know no

I totally agree and just to emphasize

your story because I think you touched

on it but it's remarkable how in this

industry a narrative that you just think

is so right so right and everybody tells

you was so wrong can just flip in a

moment's notice and I remember you know

us getting lunch or a dinner somewhere

in Dubai and you know you're just

getting pinged by all these investors

and a month ago right a month before

that you were telling me man like this

is such a bare Market what's going on

it's crazy how that flip happens and and

and we felt it also with with Enduro you

know the funny thing is when I first

started with Marathon we we knew that we

wanted to build side CHS but we didn't

know exactly how we wanted to build them

and we also didn't know how the market

would receive it and so this is like the

early part of last year and I'm you know

talking to different investors not to

invest in the product but mainly

investors are a good channel to builders

so I thought okay why don't we like talk

to these different VCS and the number of

calls that I would get on where they

would just laugh in my face they would

say no Bitcoin infrastructure it's

complete you don't need to do anything

and then all of nowhere we have 70 plus

I heard last night at a dinner 83 l2s

new ones that have come in the past year

just fli right yeah a b flipped like

when we started there was there were

just two so I mean l2s side chains

whatever you call it stacks and root so

and now there are over 100 total right I

mean uh it's it's crazy and and and

that's great but a lot of them are

trying to chase the wave like like we

mentioned Chase The Narrative uh of

course there will be there are few very

good ones uh it's it's it's going to be

very interesting next few years for

Bitcoin as a whole uh with whatever is

happening and I don't I don't get enough

sleep at night this just because I'm so

excited about everything that's

happening in the Bitcoin space you know

me too me too well any closing thoughts

M about the Bitcoin ecosystem big

predictions nothing you know no

investment advice of course but you know

what where do you see the ecosystem

going on your end The broader side um

yeah what's going what do we what can we

expect by end of you by end of so I

think I think end of the year is bit

quick but by end of 2025 I think it's

very possible for Bitcoin defi to flip

ethereum

uh and and I think I think a lot of us

would be you know would play a role in

it and because we are moving very fast

there have so many products coming out

so they're working with so many great L2

Founders I think and I was talking to my

team yesterday I mean I have I was in

ethereum space and I and the difference

between every other ecosystem Builder

and Bitcoin Builder is that they really

believe in Bitcoin it's more than money

it's more than building a career it's

more than even building a legacy it's

for Bitcoin and and I've never seen this

before in my life and I think that's

what will make Bitcoin ecosystem win I

think I think it's not even a prediction

it is just truth it is a fact uh that

will that will happen you know it's a

matter of time well let me tell you

miners would be very happy if that were

the case but we need l2s that are merge

mind because otherwise an L2 that isn't

merge mind doesn't really support proof

of work but anyway thanks so much mental

for your time and thank you audience uh

for listening in I think you can expect

great things out of Beller and hopefully

equally as good things endur thanks very

excited about Enduro and and what we do

together with Val and Enduro uh thanks a

lot Julian it's always fun chatting you

thanks