Arthur Brooks — The Pillars of Happiness | Prof G Conversations

Summary

In this insightful conversation, Harvard professor Arthur Brooks delves into the complex relationship between money, happiness, and societal issues. He discusses the decline of happiness in the United States, attributing it to factors such as financial crises, social media, political polarization, and the COVID-19 pandemic. Brooks emphasizes the importance of faith, family, friendships, and meaningful work in fostering happiness. He also addresses the gender disparities in happiness and suggests that blurred gender roles may contribute to this disparity. Brooks advocates for a balanced approach to life, where love and relationships are prioritized to achieve true happiness.

Takeaways

• 💰 Money can buy happiness up to a point, but beyond that, it's how you spend it that matters.
• 😊 Happiness is a complex relationship with money; it's not just about the amount but the purpose behind spending.
• 📉 The overall state of happiness in the US has been in decline since the 1990s, with three major crises exacerbating the issue.
• 👫 Social connections, relationships, and a sense of community are crucial for happiness and well-being.
• 🧠 Neuropeptides like oxytocin, which promote bonding, are negatively affected by lack of in-person contact.
• 🚫 The misuse of social media and its impact on mental health, especially among young adults, has contributed to the decline in happiness.
• 🧘‍♂️ Transcendence, whether through religion, nature, or philosophy, helps to manage the 'psycho drama' of daily life and contributes to happiness.
• 🏋️‍♂️ Physical exercise is an effective way to manage negative emotions and maintain mental health, but it's not as effective for increasing happiness.
• 🍻 Substance use, such as alcohol and THC, can have varying effects on happiness and should be approached with an understanding of personal tendencies and risks.
• 💔 The decline in happiness among women may be linked to the blurring of traditional gender roles and the adoption of unhealthy work patterns.
• 👨‍👩‍👧‍👦 Modeling happiness and healthy relationships for children is one of the best ways to instill these values and increase their chances of future happiness.

Q & A

What is the current state of happiness in the US according to Arthur Brooks?

The overall state of happiness in the US is in a secular decline since 1990, trading below where it was in 1990, and has experienced three crises that have pushed it down further.

What are the four factors that have been in decline since 1990 affecting happiness in the US?

The four factors are a sense of faith or philosophy of life, relationships with family, close friendships, and a good relationship with work, which includes earning success and serving others.

What were the three crises that significantly impacted happiness in the US, according to Brooks?

The three crises were the financial crisis of 2008-2009, political polarization from 2014-2016, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

How does the lack of physical contact, such as eye contact and touch, affect happiness?

The lack of physical contact leads to a deficit of oxytocin, a neuropeptide that promotes bonding and is released during eye contact and touch, resulting in a decrease in happiness and an increase in problems like depression.

Which demographic groups have seen the greatest increases in self-harm and suicidality?

The two groups are women between the ages of 15 and 25 and men between the ages of 50 and 65.

What is the role of social media in the decline of happiness among young women?

Social media has contributed to the decline by driving young women apart from in-person relationships and replacing them with online interactions, which can lead to self-harm and suicidality.

How does faith or religion contribute to happiness, and can its benefits be obtained through other means?

Faith provides a sense of transcendence, helping individuals look beyond their own concerns and connect with something larger than themselves. This can also be achieved through nature, stoicism, meditation, or other practices that promote a sense of awe and perspective.

What are the five things people can do with their money to buy happiness, and which one is least effective?

People can buy stuff, buy time, buy experiences, give it away, and save it. Buying stuff is the least effective at providing long-term happiness.

What is the best way to use money to increase happiness, according to Brooks?

The best ways to use money for happiness are to have experiences with loved ones, give it away to worthy causes, and save it for a secure future.

What is the most important factor in a successful marriage for long-term happiness?

The most important factor is cultivating a deep, authentic friendship with one's spouse, which is based on high oxytocin levels and companionship.

How can parents instill happiness in their children?

Parents can instill happiness by modeling it themselves, being serious about their life philosophy, family relationships, and engaging in work that serves others.

Outlines

00:00

💰 Money and Happiness: A Complex Relationship

The discussion begins with the idea that money can buy happiness, but only up to a certain point. It's noted that at low levels, money significantly reduces unhappiness by eliminating basic needs-related stress. However, beyond that, simply buying things doesn't increase happiness. The focus should be on how money is spent, such as investing in experiences, relationships, and causes. The state of happiness in the US is compared to a declining stock, affected by factors like a lack of faith, poor family relationships, superficial friendships, and unsatisfactory work life. The conversation also touches on the impact of social media, political polarization, and the COVID-19 pandemic on happiness levels, particularly among young adults.

05:00

🚨 The Happiness Crisis and Its Impact on Gender and Age Groups

The conversation delves into the happiness crisis, noting that happiness levels in the US have been declining since 1990 and have been further affected by three significant crises. The podcast host, Arthur Brooks, shares his expertise on happiness and strategies for a better life. The discussion highlights that young adults and middle-aged men and women are the most affected by this crisis, with increased rates of self-harm and suicidality. The impact of social media on young women and the 'deaths of despair' among middle-aged men are discussed, emphasizing the need for in-person connections and the role of oxytocin in bonding and happiness.

10:01

🧘‍♂️ Transcendence and the Role of Faith in Happiness

The conversation explores the benefits of faith and a sense of community in achieving happiness. Brooks, a Catholic, discusses the importance of transcending the self and finding meaning beyond personal concerns. He mentions that nature and societal expectations often focus on self-interest, which can lead to unhappiness. Faith, along with other practices like stoicism, meditation, and engaging with art, can help individuals look beyond their immediate concerns and find a sense of awe and purpose. The discussion also touches on the benefits of having a life philosophy and the importance of focusing on others to achieve happiness.

15:04

🏋️‍♂️ Fitness, Happiness, and the Management of Emotions

The role of fitness and exercise in managing negative emotions and promoting happiness is discussed. It's noted that while fitness is effective in managing unhappiness, it's not as impactful in increasing happiness. The conversation differentiates between positive and negative emotions, explaining their origins in different brain systems. The importance of managing negative emotions through exercise, meditation, and other practices is emphasized. Brooks shares his personal experience with fitness and its impact on his well-being, and the conversation touches on the balance between positive and negative affect in achieving happiness.

20:06

🥂 Substance Use and Its Impact on Happiness

The conversation addresses the use of substances like alcohol and THC in the context of happiness. Brooks shares his personal experiences and beliefs about the cost-benefit analysis of substance use. He emphasizes the importance of understanding one's own tendencies and family history of addiction. The discussion also highlights the importance of delaying the use of substances to reduce the likelihood of developing unhealthy patterns. Brooks and the podcast host, Scott Galloway, share their perspectives on the role of substances in their lives and the importance of moderation and self-awareness.

25:06

💔 The Pursuit of Happiness: Lessons from Personal Experiences

Brooks reflects on his past, discussing the impact of his work-centric lifestyle on his personal relationships and happiness. He shares his regrets about not prioritizing family and friendships earlier in life. The conversation emphasizes the importance of modeling happiness and good habits for children. Brooks also talks about his current efforts to maintain close relationships with his adult children and the lessons he would give to his younger self. The discussion concludes with a reflection on the societal pressures and incentives that drive individuals to prioritize professional success over personal happiness.

30:07

👨‍👩‍👧‍👦 Raising Happy Children: Parenting and Happiness

The conversation focuses on the practices and values that parents can instill in their children to increase their likelihood of happiness. Brooks emphasizes the importance of modeling happiness and good habits, as children learn more from what parents do than what they say. He discusses the significance of cultivating deep friendships, having a strong sense of life philosophy, and being passionate about work that serves others. The conversation also touches on the importance of maintaining good relationships with one's own parents and the impact this has on children's happiness.

35:08

🧗‍♂️ The Role of Gender Roles in Happiness

The conversation explores the impact of gender roles and societal expectations on happiness. Brooks discusses the differences in happiness levels between men and women and how these have changed over time. He suggests that the blurring of gender roles and the adoption of unhealthy work patterns by women have contributed to a convergence of happiness levels between genders. The discussion highlights the importance of understanding and embracing one's natural tendencies while also making conscious choices to prioritize love and relationships over work and material success.

🎓 Advice for Overachieving Young Adults

Brooks shares his advice for highly productive and overachieving young men and women, emphasizing the importance of love and relationships in achieving happiness. He references the Harvard study on adult development, which identifies love as the key factor in happiness and health in later life. Brooks advises against sacrificing love for other pursuits and encourages individuals to cultivate deep, meaningful relationships to lead a happier life.

Keywords

💡Happiness

Happiness in the context of the video refers to a state of well-being and contentment. It is the central theme, with the discussion revolving around what contributes to it and how it can be achieved or maintained. The video explores various factors such as money, relationships, and personal choices in relation to happiness.

💡Money

Money is presented as a tool that can influence happiness, but its impact is complex. At low levels, money can alleviate sources of unhappiness by providing basic needs, but beyond a certain point, its ability to increase happiness diminishes. The speaker emphasizes that how money is spent—whether on experiences, relationships, or charitable causes—can significantly affect happiness.

💡Social Media

Social media is portrayed as a double-edged sword in the pursuit of happiness. While it connects people, it can also lead to feelings of isolation and decreased face-to-face interactions, which are crucial for emotional well-being. The speaker suggests that the rise of social media has contributed to a decline in happiness, particularly among young adults.

💡Relationships

Relationships, both familial and platonic, are highlighted as essential components of happiness. The speaker argues that strong bonds with family and friends provide a sense of belonging and support, which are critical for emotional health. The video also touches on the importance of romantic relationships and the transition from infatuation to a deeper, lasting friendship.

💡Work

Work is discussed in terms of its impact on happiness, with the speaker emphasizing the importance of finding meaning and purpose in one's career. A good relationship with work involves feeling successful and serving others, which can contribute positively to one's sense of well-being.

💡Mental Health

Mental health is a significant aspect of happiness, with the video discussing the prevalence of mood disorders and the importance of seeking treatment. The speaker also touches on the role of self-treatment and the dangers of using substances like alcohol and pornography as coping mechanisms.

💡Addiction

Addiction is presented as a serious issue that can lead to a decline in happiness and well-being. The speaker discusses how addiction can result from attempts to self-treat mental health issues and the importance of recognizing and addressing these tendencies within oneself.

💡Transcendence

Transcendence refers to the ability to rise above one's immediate concerns and connect with something larger than oneself. This concept is linked to faith and spirituality, which can provide a sense of perspective and reduce the focus on personal issues, thereby contributing to happiness.

💡Physical Exercise

Physical exercise is discussed as a means to manage negative emotions and contribute to overall well-being. It is presented as a healthy way to regulate one's emotional state and maintain a balance between positive and negative affect.

💡Substance Use

Substance use, including alcohol and THC (tetrahydrocannabinol), is examined in terms of its potential impact on happiness. The speaker suggests that while moderate use can be beneficial for some, it's important to consider personal tendencies towards addiction and the long-term effects on one's well-being.

💡Gender Roles

Gender roles are discussed in the context of how societal expectations and norms can influence happiness. The speaker notes that traditional gender roles may contribute to stress and unhappiness, particularly when they lead to imbalances in work and family life.

Highlights

Money can buy happiness, but it's a complex relationship.

At low levels, money significantly reduces unhappiness by eliminating basic needs concerns.

Above a certain threshold, money doesn't increase happiness; it depends on how you spend it.

Happiness in the US has been in secular decline since 1990, with three major crises exacerbating the issue.

The decline in happiness is linked to a decrease in faith, family relationships, friendships, and meaningful work.

The three crises that have significantly impacted happiness are the 2008 financial crisis, political polarization, and the COVID-19 pandemic.

Lack of social contact, especially eye contact and touch, has led to a decrease in oxytocin, contributing to unhappiness.

Young adults and middle-aged men have seen the greatest increases in self-harm and suicidality.

Social media has had a negative impact on young women's happiness, while middle-aged men face 'deaths of despair'.

Religion and a sense of community can provide shock absorbers against life's challenges.

Transcendence, whether through faith or other means, is crucial for happiness as it helps one look beyond personal concerns.

The four key components of happiness are faith, family, friends, and work that serves others.

Physical exercise is effective for managing negative emotions and unhappiness.

Substances like alcohol and THC can have a net positive or negative impact on happiness based on individual tendencies and usage patterns.

Economic security is a strong indicator of happiness, but it doesn't necessarily lead to greater happiness beyond a certain point.

In relationships, the goal should be companionate love, which is based on deep friendship.

Modeling happiness through one's own behavior is the best way to raise happy children.

Happiness is closely tied to love, and prioritizing love in life leads to greater happiness and health in the long term.

Gender roles and expectations can impact happiness, and it's important to understand and navigate these roles consciously.

The most important factor for long-term happiness and health is the presence of love in one's life.

Transcripts

money can buy you happiness and now it

tops out but money is a very strong

forward-looking indicator of your

happiness it's true so it's a

complicated relationship now at low

levels money absolutely lowers the

sources of unhappiness above those low

levels here's the point if you just buy

crap you're not going to get happier it

really depends what you do with your

money if you want to keep buying

[Music]

happiness Arthur where does this podcast

find you I am in my office at the

Harvard Business School I'm about to go

and give a lecture on happiness which is

the class I teach at

HPS nice so let's start there you're

known as an expert on happiness and

strategies for building a better life

how would you describe the overall state

of happiness in the US of happiness for

a stock where do you think it's trading

right now it's trading way way below

where it was in 1990 and it would have

fallen off the the out of the out of the

Industrial Average it um it's in crisis

is is the bottom line we've actually

seen kind of two things happen to

happiness as we measure it in the United

States over the past 30 years it's been

in kind of a a secular Decline and then

there have been three crises that have

pushed it down as well the secular

decline has to do with the fact that

that happiness rises in a population or

for individuals when people have more of

a sense of their faith or philosophy of

life whether it's secular or religious

when people have a better relationship

with their families when they have close

friendships real friends not deal

friends and and last but not least when

they have a good relationship with their

work which means earning their success

and serving other people and all those

four things have been in Decline since

about 1990 and that's been a secular

decline of Happiness then then there's

these three incredible storms that have

pushed happiness down in 2008 2009 a

major decrease in happiness started uh

particularly among young adults and I

thought at the time probably you and I

would have seen it the same way as as B

School guys that that it was the

financial crisis and people not being

able to find jobs you know com young

people coming out of school it wasn't

that was when everybody got social media

on their devices that turns out to have

been the catalytic event especially with

young adults and especially young women

to inflect happiness down the second was

political polarization 2014 2015 2016

where we were being encouraged by my

malignant narcissistic politicians that

we should hate people who disagree with

us which is the worst for the people who

are the haters even worse than the Hades

and then last but not least was Corona

which was you know hey everybody go home

and and you know work from by zoom and

and don't talk to your friends and good

luck to you have a nice day which

quadrupled the rates of of of depressive

symptoms which have not declined ever

since I mean isn't it if you try to

distill it down to one thing isn't it a

lack of contact the fact that we're

mammals and we're supposed to be bumping

off one another and whether it's facing

our screen or just not going into work

we just don't have as much contact with

one another yeah yeah yeah for sure it's

eye contact and touch so there's a

neuropeptide in the brain called

oxytocin most people know what it is

it's a it functions as a hormone and

it's it was evolved so that we would

bond to each other so that we would have

kin group so we wouldn't you know walk

the frozen tundra and die alone and so

it's intensely pleasurable and you only

get it from eye contact and touch and so

anything that actually pulls us apart so

we're not having in-person eye contact

and and and even worse that we're not

having physical touch is going to give

us a deficit of that and that's going to

lead to all the problems we see today

and if we start to begin to think about

Solutions well let's let's back up is it

especially Stark if you start to to

segment it by gender religious income

levels age where is it the problem worst

and least least bad so it's worst among

young adults is what we find so that the

two groups that actually have we've seen

the greatest increases in self harm you

know suicidality are are women between

the ages of 15 and 25 and Men our age

which is pretty interesting isn't it

it's so it's guys who are between about

the ages of 50 and 65 and women between

the ages of 15 and mid 20s are where you

actually see the highest rates of

suicidality the highest increases in

suicidality and and there are different

reasons for that number one is you find

that young women are they tend to

actually suffer the most from the

ravages of how social media has driven

them apart and become a substitute for

their inperson relationships when you

talk about men it has a lot more to do

with the fact that you know these are

deaths of Despair that we see so you see

more sosis of the liver more men outrage

getting addicted to opiates uh more men

outage actually killing themselves and

the rates of growth are double digit in

suicidality in that group so I'll put

forward a thesis and I I know you agree

with the first but I'm curious to

explore the latter and that is when we

look at when we look at girls um they

have uh in you know boys bully

physically and verbally girls bully

relationally we've put these nuclear

weapons in their hands they're

sexualized at a young age they are given

unreasonable expectations that they

place on themselves in terms of their

appearance and their success and and

then they have social media picking up

on algorithms that they're interested in

self harm and sending them pictures of

Nu's bills and razors I I see a Blu line

path or it's fairly clear to me what's

going on there the people our age I'll

put forward a thesis I'm not as clear

but I read this article about the path

to Suicide for men our age and it goes

something like this or one of the

broadest paths a man loses his job or

has some sort of Mental Health crisis is

no longer viewed as a provider by a

spouse spouse divorces and 70% of

divorces people our age are initiated by

the woman loses his income his primary

relationship and access to his kids all

at the same time and also the Mental

Health Community is I think it's like

90% now of of the therapists or women

don't have a strong friend Network don't

have therapists who can relate to the

unique problems that a man faces and

makes not a mental health or it doesn't

have a mental health breakdown but makes

a rational decision to kill himself your

thoughts yeah that's a that's that's

very adroit Scott I mean the most self

harm follows or most suicides uh follow

more or less the same structure which is

they start with a mood disorder so a

clinical mood disorder which is to say

you're above the bar on clinical

depression or general and or generalized

anxiety which are cousins mental in in

terms of mental health now to be sure

those are dials not switches part of the

problem with the mental health

profession is you go to a a therapist

and they say you have depression well

guess what Scott we all have depression

the question is how high is the dial

turned and if it goes above a particular

threshold such that is clinically

designated then you actually need

treatment anyway so people who are above

that clinical designation then like most

there's about a 95% undertreatment rate

for these mood disorders and most guys

our AG self treat and how do they self

treat with drugs and alcohol they self

treat with drugs and alcohol plus other

really delerious things for your brain

like pornography which is horrible for

the brain all these things that will

actually in increase the the the

neurotransmitter activity that's

involved with addiction Etc it basically

is brain capture gambling whatever it

happens to be and then on top of that so

you've got a mental illness problem you

have self a very messy and and bad self-

treatment issue and then you have a

setback and the setback is what you know

something happens you lose your job your

wife leaves you uh you you know

something happens to one of your kids

and and you just you can't handle the

setback because life is full of setbacks

man I mean life is full of crises life

is full of problems and what do you need

to deal with your problems you need

people around you who love you you need

a support structure you need a religion

you need a a spouse you need kids you

need a family when all that stuff is

gone and by the way the only coping me

mechanism that you have is you know

internet porn and a 12pack of beer

that's not going to solve the problem on

the contrary it's going to make it worse

so it's that's I just basically

summarized what you said in slightly

different

terms one of the reasons I wanted to

speak to you is that religion plays a

big role in your life yeah and it plays

it plays none in mine and I was just

curious and it makes a lot of sense to

me that you need those shock absorbers

friendships or a belief that you're

playing a part in something bigger than

yourself which I think religion a sense

of community provides all of those

things

can you walk us through the benefits of

Faith specifically if you're explaining

those benefits to those of us who are

atheists yeah for sure so um I'm a

Catholic most important thing in my life

and that the metaphysics of the

rightness of Catholicism or I don't know

man I don't know it's above my I'm not a

priest it's above my I'm not a

theologian but as a social scientist the

important thing about about um faith is

actually the Transcendence that it

brings which you can also get many other

ways here's the point nature mother

nature who does not care if we're happy

Mother Nature really only cares about

two things which is procreation and

survival that's really Mother Nature's

imperatives for you happy that's your

business and the mother nature gives you

uh a real imperative to focus on

yourself all the time that's called the

Psycho Drama that's what most you know

in in the in the social science

literature that I i' swim around in the

Psycho Drama is my job and my lunch and

my commute and my students and my money

and my sandwich and and it's just it's

like watching the same episode of Better

Call Saul every single day by force and

it's incredibly tedious and terrible

that Psycho Drama will drive you almost

literally mad and the only way to get

beyond the Psycho Drama is to transcend

it you need to look at something bigger

than yourself there's a lot of ways to

do it you know you and I both know Ryan

holiday who's a good dude and what he's

done is he's actually introduced

millions of people to stoicism which

what it does is it gives you a sense of

transcendence you you play a smaller

piece it becomes instead of the M self

looking in the mirror is the I self

where I can actually observe the world

and take some sense of awe in it some

people like to walk in nature without

devices I love to analyze the fugues of

Johan Sebastian Bach some people engage

in a Vasa a meditation practice some

people like me go to mass the point is

man you got to zoom out because if you

don't zoom out you will be zoomed in and

you'll be miserable all the time that's

why you need a sense of life's

philosophy and something that will put

you in proper perspective which is

little you need to as they used to say

as Steve Martin used to say you got to

get small man you got to get small do

you think I'm trying to move to

Solutions here and I I I like the way

you framed it I think of the more time I

spend just focusing on my own and

looking at myself

constantly the more susceptible I become

to a shock and for me having kids was

really became a bit of a shock absorber

CU for the first time I was thinking

about other things more than myself and

so quite frankly I just had less time to

be hard on myself or think about my

shortcomings because I was focused on

something other than me do you think

that for example what outside of

religion like national service nonprofit

volunteer work what else can serve that

role or fill that hole like religion

does yeah relationships are key so you

find that the happiest people they

engage in faith or philosophy family

life real friendship and work that

serves other people those are the big

four faith family friends and work are

the big four what do they all have in

common they're about other people

they're about love of the Divine or love

of your family or love of your friends

or love for everybody is expressed

through your work and and you know

that's probably I mean you and I have we

were engaged in public education that's

what we do you know we have our our our

University students but then we have the

general public that we're dedicated to

educating and and your work makes you

miserable when you're thinking about

your own career and it makes you

intensely happy when you realize you're

doing something something good for a lot

of other people when people say you know

what's the best way to get rid of

loneliness the answer is go find a

lonely person and give them relief

that's the single best way for you to be

less lonely if you want to be less

depressed and you feel isolated go do

something for somebody because you

actually will go from me to i s it's all

about other people talk about the role

that Fitness plays in happiness or

exercise yeah so that's an interesting

one because that's really important I

know to you and really really important

to me as well I'm a I'm a I've been a

gym at for 30 years um and and for the

longest time I noticed that it was is

tremendously important for my well-being

my well-being in general but well-being

is you know subjective well-being Which

social scientists have been talking

about for a long time is is too blunt a

concept because it mixes two things that

are actually occurring largely in

different hemispheres of the brain

positive and negative affect positive

and negative mood which are separable

because they're actually induced by

activity in different parts of the lyic

system of the brain you need need

negative emotions fear anger sadness and

disgust to protect you from threats and

give you aversive Sensations all

emotions are are data all they are are

information so you know what's going on

and you know how to react to it your

positive emotions they give you approach

motives it's like I Joy interest these

are the things that make me want to go

do something now people talk about good

and bad feelings they're completely

wrong there's no such thing as good and

bad feelings there's positive and

negative emotions largely emanating from

different hemispheres of the brain now

the reason that that's really important

is because when we mix them together and

call it subjective well-being you're

kind of mixing things that don't mix

very well what we find is once we

separate those things that we have

different stimuli that will either raise

your levels of happiness Visa your

positive effect or manage your levels of

negative effect your unhappiness fitness

and health are very good techniques for

managing your unhappiness they're not

very good for raising your happiness and

that's a super important thing I mean I

have these tests that I give people

about whether they have really high or

low levels of positive and negative AFF

you know I've been you know it's like

you and I are just meeting but I've been

I know who you are I've been seeing you

for years and years and years and you

have a classic mad scientist profile of

an entrepreneur very high positive

effect and very high negative effect

you're a high affect guy super engaged

super high energy but that means that

you got to do two things you got to make

sure that you keep that high positive

affect but you got to make manage that

high negative effect or you'll go you

you'll make everybody around you nuts I

mean you you'll drive your spouse off

you'll make your employees insane if you

don't do that and the single best way to

manage negative affect not to get rid of

it because you'll die you'll get chased

down by a tiger and get killed you want

to manage it to manageable levels is

physical exercise now another way to do

it of course is meditation and so I

recommend to all of my students who are

mad scientists like Scott Galloway and

and Arthur Brooks by the way is to get

up before Dawn no coffee no stimulants

because you'll all you be doing is

pouring stimulants on top of unusually

high cortisol levels that are spiking at

that point go beat yourself up I mean

beat yourself up for 60 minutes in the

gym man I'm talking lifting because

there's no substitute for Lifting for

the for the hormonal impacts that it

have and then work on your spirit

whether that's your meditation or your

analyzing Bach or doing your wisdom

reading or going to church and then 2

hours after you get up have your coffee

and then you'll have a maximum period of

dopamine you'll be managing your

negative effect and you'll have a much

better

day we'll be right

back so you talked about caffeine and

I'll use this as a segue into I try to

be as I try to be as transparent as

possible with with my listeners and I'm

finally in a position of Economic

Security where I'm not too worried about

being canceled at least economically I

love alcohol um and I love substances I

drink I used to drink four or five times

a week now recognizing my liver just

can't handle that I drink two to three

times a week and I think it's been a net

positive in my life and I also uh take

Edibles probably two or three times a

week I love THC and I I used a lot of it

when I was young I gave it up when I was

working all the time but I I it maybe

this is the symptom of of of an abuser

but I've talked myself into believing it

it's actually enhanced my happiness has

have you thought about a construct

through which to look at substances in

terms of because I don't just buy I find

it's very reductive to go Nancy Reagan

and say just say no and they're all bad

all the time I just don't buy that have

you thought about a lens through which

to look at substances in terms of

managing your own happiness it's a cost

benefit question is what it comes down

to and so the whole idea of being very

Arch on this is not appropriate and and

the cost benefit differs for different

people I don't use any substances

because I have a lot of addiction in my

family and you know recogniz nothing no

alcohol not a glass of wine no nothing

nothing I have I I drank very heavily

through my 20s and 30s I was a musician

all the way through my 20s I was a

professional classical musician until I

was in my early 30s and then all the way

through graduate school getting my PhD

and becoming a social scientist I kind

of kept being a musician with respect to

my habits and by the time I was 38 years

old I saw the writing on the wall I was

going to go the direction of the rest of

my family and so I needed to stop that

doesn't mean Scott Galloway needs to

stop you need to know yourself remember

the Oracle at Deli know thyself it's

very important and and if you don't then

you'll be following somebody else's

pattern and somebody who has ATT

tendency toward alcohol abuse can ruin

their life or somebody who actually

could get some positive benefit for

their relationships and just just

entertainment will be missing that so

one of the things that I talk about is

family tendency is that is the you know

there's a whole series of very

interesting behavioral experiments so

you can find for example that if it's

easy for you to stop with two drinks you

probably don't need to if it's hard for

you to stop at two drinks you should

probably not be drinking and that has

everything to do with just your general

proclivities toward um toward the the

addiction that comes s the dopamine

Pathways the other thing it's really

worth pointing out Scott is that people

can enjoy substances a lot more the

longer that they wait to use them and

the reason is because of the pathways

that we lay down in the brain when your

brain is highly plastic and you're

drinking at 14 you're much likely to be

an alcohol abuser when you're 28 and 38

then if you actually don't start until

your brain is less plastic and so the

key thing for parents listening to us

don't waste your time trying to tell

your kids never never never don't don't

ever try pot don't ever try alcohol

you'll die if you do just delay as long

as you possibly can and they're far more

likely the longer you delay to develop

healthy patterns and you know life

affirming patterns as opposed to having

to you know quit and go through a whole

lot of crises later on in life we both

teach it a business school and I I've

you know the notion that money can't buy

you happiness I found that that's

something we tell ourselves to feel more

comfortable with a society where in fact

and again this is a thesis that money

can buy you happiness and now it tops

out but my understanding is it tops out

at a pretty high level and billionaires

are no happier than millionaires but

they're no less happy either at least

the research I've seen and that Economic

Security is just and again it's it it's

not a good thing I'm not saying it's the

way it should be but it is but money is

a very strong forward-looking indicator

of your happiness what are your thoughts

yeah it's true so it's a complicated

relationship now at low levels money

absolutely lowers the sources of

unhappiness unambiguously that you can

eliminate the sources of everywhere

absolutely I mean if you if you're not

meeting your caloric needs if you're not

getting adequate health care if you

don't know if you're going to be able to

pay your rent it's horrible for your un

not your happiness your unhappiness that

will raise your stress levels you'll

have chronic you know a cortisol drip

right into your brain you won't be able

to function properly or even or even

focus so that's at low levels but that's

really low levels on top of that the

biggest problem that people make I mean

I remember when I was poor I mean I was

living in New York City uh I was a

French horn player I didn't go to the

dentist for six years from when I was 19

until I was 25 years old because I

didn't have the money and then when I

was 25 I went to the dentist cuz I

finally had the money I joined an

orchestra in Barcelona and I was making

a living and I went to the and I felt a

lot better cuz I had like 12 cavities I

needed to get filled and I mistake of

course I I will I will admit that during

that time I never went a day without

cigarettes so I guess probably it was

you know priorities at that point but

you know at 25 when I got I went to the

dentist I figured out that I felt a lot

better and I concluded money really does

BU happiness no it was eliminating my my

avoidable sources of unhappiness above

those low levels here's the point if you

just buy crap you're not going to get

happier it really depends what you do

with your money if you want to keep

buying happiness so there's five things

you can do with your money and anybody

can do with their money no matter how

much money that they have they can buy

stuff they can buy time they can buy

experiences they can give it away and

they can save it those are the five

things that people can do the one thing

at relatively high levels that money

doesn't give you very much happiness at

all much more than kind of a fleeting

Thrill Is buying stuff what will bring

you authentic happiness is experiences

with people that you love time not to

Fritter away on social media but to

spend with people that you love giving

it away to causes that you think are

highly

meritorious and saving your money it

turns out that saving your money has a

lot of huge benefits for people it makes

them feel secure about their future it

makes them feel good about you know what

they're going to leave to their kids or

causes and all kinds of stuff so I mean

there's a limit on that too obviously

but those it depends on how you spend it

you can buy happiness for sure so you're

coaching two people about to get married

and they come to you and they say

Professor you understand happiness talk

about happiness through the frame of a

relationship what are the best practices

when you approach a relationship that

not only increase the likelihood of your

own happiness but of your partners the

the key thing is number one what what is

the goal of the marriage and the goal is

not permanent passion it's what we call

in my business companion at love which

as my kids remind me does not sound hot

but it's the best thing ever it's best

friendship that's the goal the reason

that people will date and be just madly

in love and then find after two years

that they hate each other is because

they actually never got to Friendship

when the the neurochemical tide receded

there was nothing left on the beach and

and that meant there was no friendship

left here's the point so when you when

you the the falling in love has a has a

the process of falling in love with

somebody has a very uh important

chemical footprint neurochemical

footprint it starts off with the sex

hormones of estrogen and testosterone

where where that's where attraction

starts that's that's ignition the second

part is where we have that the sense of

euphoria and anticipation in falling in

love and those are two neurochemicals

that you know dopamine which gives you

anticipation of a reward which is why

the the signature of falling in love

looks an awful lot like the early stages

of of a methamphetamine addiction

because of the because of the dopamine

the noradrenaline or norepinephrine in

your system gives you the sense of

euphoria when you're talking to that

particular person the third step is

infatuation and infatuation is where

you're really neurally imprinting on

another person because you can't stop

ruminating on the person so rumination

involves a drop in serotonin levels

that's the reason that people who are

clinically depressed they will have

they'll they'll take drugs to enhance

their serotonin levels or the re-uptake

of the serotonin in their brain is

because they want to ruminate less the

problem is that when you're falling in

love with somebody you need to ruminate

on the person that's the same thing that

creative people do when they're doing a

business plan is they can't stop

thinking about it you know when you and

I are doing a thing for work like I'm

writing a book or we're putting together

a company all the stuff that we do and

you can't sleep and the reason is

because you're ruminating in the same

way that you would be depressively

ruminating or when you're in love infat

infatuated with the other person then

last but not least is when the oxytocin

really bonds you to the other person

permanently that's where you want to

wind up in your relationship and so you

need to cultivate true deep friendship

with the other person by about 5 years

in if you have that best friendship that

actually comes from the high oxytocin

levels it does it's I mean you you got

all the other stuff has to go away or

you'll lose your mind and hate your life

I mean if you're basically completely

infatuated with the other person you'll

be so stressed out you won't even be

able to work you need that to stop you

need your serotonin levels to come back

but you need your oxytocin levels to

stay high the goal of that is you don't

need to go get you know like a PhD in

Neuroscience what you need to work on is

making sure that that you are

cultivating a deep a real authentic

profound even metaphysical friendship

with the other

person and as a parent if you want to

raise kids that are just generally more

likely to be happy are there practices

or behaviors or values you can instill

or try to instill as a parent that

increase the likelihood they will be I

don't want to say likelihood that they

will be happy because there's so many

things that go into that but give them a

better maybe a better toolkit yeah it's

all about modeling is it doesn't matter

what you say there's nothing in

parenting that matters what you say you

know I've done this work on what what

what's what's the biggest likelihood

that your kids will grow up and practice

your religion you know if you're Jewish

and it's important to you and you want

your kids to grow up and be Jewish

Christian Muslim whatever it happens to

be and it turns out that the number one

predictor of your kids growing up and

practicing your religion is seeing their

father practice the religion it does not

matter it's a lot less the mother

weirdly and the reason for this is that

the physically most impos closing human

being um in a child's life is us is

often in conventional families at least

the father and when I was a kid I

wondered if my dad could lift the house

I mean because he was huge I mean he

seemed huge to me and and my dad I mean

he bent the knee to no man but he was on

his knees on Sunday and as a little dude

that had a huge impact on me it's like

something's bigger than Dad so so my

point is not the religious point my

point is the modeling Point put your own

oxygen mask first you have to have good

happiness hygiene in your life so your

kids can witness it that's the most

important thing and that means that

you're serious about your your sense of

Life philosophy that you're serious

about your family relationships that

their your kids see you with a

relationship with your own parents for

example that you have real friendships

really deep friendships that you're

engaged in with your work that you're

passionate about it because you're

serving other people and creating

authentic value with your life and value

in the lives of other people and that's

the best thing you can possibly do for

raising Happy Kids frankly I mean I can

talk all day long about you know

conflict in families you know 11% of

people our age are not speaking to at

least one of their adult kids which is

insanity and I know the reason why that

happens we can we can talk about how to

make sure that doesn't happen but if you

want him to actually be happier you got

to model

happiness and so it sounds like I mean

you started off as a musician you ended

up at HPS it's a pretty unusual path

what advice would you give to your

younger self around trying to get to a

position of Happiness um more quickly um

I would have I would have cultivated my

my my family relationships and

friendships more um I mean Scott I was a

CEO for a long time too so there's a lot

between the French horn and HBS I was

actually a professor for a while doing

really conventional I was doing genetic

algorithm stuff early AI stuff and

applying it to public policy then I was

a CEO of a big think tank in Washington

DC for 11 years of a place called The

American Enterprise Institute and and I

was doing that job and it was a big job

man I had to raise $50 million a year I

was on the road all the time giving 175

speeches a year and I was all about work

I was working 80 hours a week for a long

time I I spent the 14th hour at the

office instead of the first hour with my

kids many times and those little

ingrates they got their revenge on me

man they grew up you know and and now I

look back and I'm a grandfather now so

you know um and I'm not screwing it up

anymore I talk to all my adult kids and

uh every day now on FaceTime whether

they want it or not they're going to be

hearing from dad because and I'm not

going to screw it up with my grandkids

but that's the greatest thing I mean

there were days when um I neglected my

marriage I my parents died and I didn't

know them very well um they died young I

mean they died young there's you know

there's you know issues with their

health but I they were interesting

people my mother was an artist my father

was a brilliant mathematician I was

thought God gosh what interesting people

but I was doing my thing and I was

running around and so the ambition got

in the way of my life in a way and I I

like the results but I it was a it was a

a sacrifice that was too great actually

for my own happiness so if I'm giving

myself success advice in World Libra

Awards is different than giving myself

happiness advice and and at this point I

took the choice to be special too many

times over being happy and I regret some

of that I think um I feel the same way

but I wonder if you're being a little

bit hard on yourself cuz every piece of

stimulus and incentive out there as a

man is to be a baller professionally and

everything else will fall into place and

so I think the incentives are you know

every every piece of external stimuli is

telling you that you have to be

successful and if you aren't you're

going to regret that more than

anything but I never forgave my father

for not being around I still have

struggles with it I mean it sounds like

you've you have a good relationship with

your adult children

now what about I like this idea of

repair what about the dad who

understandably in his 20s and 30s wasn't

there as much for his spouse and his

kids because he was just really focused

on economic security I I I'm grateful I

didn't have kids when I was young

because I did nothing but work that was

my identity I was worried I was always

worried about being broke yeah and and

kids wouldn't have changed that I just

wouldn't have been around yeah but any

thoughts on SC because you know I had my

kids and in my in my 30s and and uh and

and I was working all the time because I

was just look here's the thing with my

students which is to say me and you too

we're intensely afraid of failure that's

our death fear so everybody has a death

fear only 20% of humans are actually

morbidly afraid of physically dying but

we all have a death fear which is the

end of our sense of self if you define

yourself in terms of your work you're

going to be intensely afraid of failing

Prof professionally and that's what I am

and that's what you are and that's what

we're going to take to the Grave unless

we manage it unless we're we're open and

we're we we articulate that particular

fear to ourselves and the people who

love us the most to say look I I know

I'm strong I know I'm successful I've

been very fortunate that things have

really gone my way professionally in

four different careers fantastic and so

people say like you must be the happiest

guy in the planet it's like no I'm I got

I got something chasing me you don't

understand you know when you're Chas

something chasing you you can run

really fast and and and it can look like

you're running a race but you're

basically kind of you have this this

ghost actually and and so the point is

that when I've talked to you know my my

own family and my adult kids about this

you know I have a Frank conversation

about it I say look that was not a good

impetus and so the result is that that's

been my own process of knowing myself

and the reason that I teach happiness

right now is because Scott I want it you

know it's not because I'm you know I

don't have natural athletic abilities in

in in you know the sport of Happiness

it's because I don't quite frankly and

so studying it as a scholar has been

really the secret to giving my own self

a better life and you know the truth is

I measure it carefully with my students

and my own happiness is up 60% in the

past 5 years since I've dedicated myself

to it and that's what I'm going to do

for the rest of my life so last question

I appreciate you've been very generous

with your

time what have you given any thought to

the Notions of masculinity and

femininity and gender roles embracing

them modulating them

redefining them the role that plays in

happiness yeah I I I have to a certain

extent because you find that there are

are are pretty pretty substantial gender

differences that you see in the

literature um and I'll give you an

example of that I've looked for the

longest time asking who's happier men or

women and forever the answer was women

you know you find that married women are

happier than married men that single

women are happier than single men that

widowed women are way happier than

widowed men right I told that one to my

wife and she's like huh you know but

this weird thing happen Scott over the

past 15 years which is that the the Gap

has closed and the Gap has not closed

because men have gotten happier it's

because women have gone down to the

unhappiness level of men and the reason

for that is because probably I mean we

can speculate on this but this is not

something that Scholars are likely to

touch for the obvious reasons of

self-preservation that that gender roles

have been blurred to the point that

women are working and in the in the same

much the same way with many of the same

unhealthy work patterns that men are and

it's not good for happiness under the

circumstances so one of the things that

I recommend is that you know men

understand what their proclivities are

and embrace them when appropriate and

fight against them as is appropriate as

well you know the truth is that you will

just I mean you left your devices as a

man you will think because Mother Nature

is telling you that nobody's going to

love you unless you bring in a freaking

gazelle every day bring in the gazelle

and if you drag in the gazelle then your

spouse will continue to love you and

your kids will continue to respect you

yet for another day and then you go get

another gazelle but that's not right

that's a that's an evolutionary

anachronism that is not correct they

love you and they want more of you how

many times do I talk to men our age and

they have the same argument with their

wife over and over and over again where

their wife is like are you on the road

again and it's like yeah you complain

about me not being here but you sure

love what all of this work brings you

and I noticed that you use this money

and the wife is like I'm spending the

money because I got nothing else to do I

would take less money if I had more of

you and that argument goes on and on and

on and on and it's what I recommend of

men in particular who are stuck in this

Vortex of incentives from Mother Nature

is to remember that you can take that

animal path or you can you can choose a

Divine path and if you're an atheist

that's the truly human prefrontal cortex

path where you're not a prisoner of your

lyic system your prefrontal cortex the

sea Suite of your brain can make the

decision to go against those

proclivities and you can be happier one

quick last question uh we both are

around a large cohort of what I'll call

highly productive overachieving young

men and women if you could tell them

this is the behavior I need you to do

less of or more of what would those one

or two things be there's really one big

one which actually comes from the

Harvard study of adult development and

that's the longest running longitudinal

study on happiness and health in the

United States that started with guys at

Harvard in the late 1930s and then it

matched it up with a cohort of guys who

didn't go to college and then it wrapped

in their spouses and then it wrapped in

their kids so it's very demographically

representative at this point and it's 85

years in it looks at as people who are

happy and healthy when they're older

what did they do differently than the

ones who are not happy and healthy when

they got older and it comes down to one

thing Scott happiness is love that's the

one thing big thing greatest opening

line of any academic study it's

Happiness Is Love full stop full stop

that's from George Valiant who ran it

for for 30 years that the guy who took

it over is Bob waldinger at the Harvard

Medical School wonderful guy really

worth having on the show as a matter of

fact he wrote The Good Life which was a

big bestseller they keep getting best

sellers out of these data but it comes

down to this unipolar idea which is that

when you're doing something instead of

love you're doing it wrong I mean when

you're basically when you're

systematically substituting for love in

your life it's a problem when you're

complimenting the love in your life when

you're doing something that's a

compliment to your love relationships

you're doing it right but if when I what

I tell my students is that if you're

lonely you're doing it wrong that if

you're making sacrifices with respect to

your marriage and and and having

children informing your family you're

doing it wrong and you don't have to do

it that way and you're going to regret

it because you're not going to have as

happy have as much love in your life as

you want and need and deserve Arthur

Brooks is the Parker Gilbert Montgomery

professor of the practice of public and

nonprofit leadership at the Harvard

Kennedy School and professor of

management practice at the Harvard

Business School where he teaches courses

on leadership happiness and social

entrepreneurship he's also a columnist

at the Atlantic where he writes a

popular weekly how to build a life

column and is the author of 13 books

including the 2023 number one New York

Times bestseller build the life you want

the Art and Science of getting happier

with co-author Oprah Winfrey he joins us

from his office at Harvard uh Professor

Brooks love this stuff and I you just

have such a facility you just break it

down so well such that it resonates with

people and I think you're in the seat

you should be in I think it's good for

good for you good for your students good

for the planet we really appreciate your

time thank you Scott and thank you for

what you're doing you've enriched my

life a lot um not only given me a lot of

great entertainment but a lot of

incredible ideas you've used your

platform as a public intellectual for

public good and um I've been the

beneficiary of that so thank

you

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