The Most Important Financial Event Of The Last Century Is Here

Summary

In this insightful discussion, Ryan Sax shares his perspective on the current state of cryptocurrencies, highlighting the progress in making digital currencies more accessible and beneficial for the average person. He discusses the importance of building products that prove the value of cryptocurrencies, the impact of regulatory guidance, and the challenges developers face in creating user-friendly experiences. Sax emphasizes the potential of cryptocurrencies to offer a fundamentally better way to hold and move money, comparing the development of crypto to the early days of the internet, and remains optimistic about the future of digital currencies despite the challenges.

Takeaways

• 🚀 Cryptocurrencies are gaining mainstream attention and acceptance, with Bitcoin now considered a Wall Street asset.
• 🌐 The developer community has made significant progress in making cryptocurrencies more accessible and user-friendly.
• 🛠️ Technological advancements like account abstraction and layer 2/3 solutions are reducing transaction costs and increasing speed.
• 📈 The Bitcoin ETF approval is a major milestone, indicating broader institutional interest in cryptocurrencies.
• 🔄 The crypto market is experiencing a resurgence of interest following the FTX incident, showing resilience and growth.
• 🔒 Open source development in the crypto space is vibrant and driven by a community of passionate developers.
• 💡 The analogy of the internet's early days is used to illustrate the potential and current stage of cryptocurrency development.
• 💰 Cryptocurrencies offer a fundamentally better way to hold and move money, without the need for trust in banks or intermediaries.
• 🔒 Regulatory uncertainty and the need for compliance are significant challenges for developers building crypto products.
• 🔄 The future of cryptocurrencies hinges on creating user experiences that mimic traditional banking while offering the benefits of digital currencies.
• 🌟 The optimism in the crypto community remains strong, with a belief that the technology is on the cusp of a breakthrough for mainstream adoption.

Q & A

What is the main focus of the conversation in the Eural University series on digital currencies?

The main focus is to define cryptocurrencies, understand the progress happening in the space, and discuss the real developments and interest in cryptocurrencies from people who have been living and working in the industry.

How has the perception of cryptocurrencies evolved since Bitcoin's inception?

Cryptocurrencies have evolved from being a niche interest to gaining mainstream attention, with Bitcoin now considered a Wall Street asset and the market experiencing legitimate demand from a broader audience.

What are some of the developer milestones that have been achieved in the cryptocurrency space?

Developer milestones include progress in account abstraction, layer two and layer three solutions, which aim to make dealing with blockchain more accessible and user-friendly, allowing for faster and cheaper transactions without the need for users to understand the complexities of crypto wallets.

What is the significance of the Bitcoin ETF approval in the context of cryptocurrency adoption?

The Bitcoin ETF approval is a major indicator of broader institutional interest and acceptance of cryptocurrencies, signaling a shift in the market and validating the place of cryptocurrencies in the financial landscape.

How does Ryan Sax view the current state of the cryptocurrency market and its potential for mainstream adoption?

Ryan Sax views the current state as the most exciting time since he joined the space, with significant progress in developer communities and a growing interest from the mass market, leading to a flourishing optimism about the future of cryptocurrencies.

What are the challenges faced by developers when trying to build cryptocurrency products that integrate with the traditional banking system?

Developers face regulatory uncertainty, the need to adhere to existing banking regulations, and the challenge of building user experiences that are both compliant and accessible to the average person, without causing friction or requiring extensive knowledge of cryptocurrencies.

What does Ryan Sax believe is the 'Holy Grail' of cryptocurrency development?

The 'Holy Grail' is creating an intuitive user experience that closely mimics the ease of traditional financial systems, allowing users to benefit from using cryptocurrency without necessarily caring about the underlying technology.

How does Ryan Sax compare the current stage of cryptocurrency development to the early days of the internet?

He compares it to the period before the widespread adoption of web browsers, suggesting that cryptocurrencies are awaiting their 'Netscape moment' – a product or service that will make the technology accessible and appealing to the average user.

What are the three key factors Ryan Sax believes will help cryptocurrency move from adolescence to early adulthood?

The three key factors are the development of user experiences familiar to non-crypto users, regulatory guidance that allows for the integration of cryptocurrencies with the banking system, and continued innovation in the wallet and decentralized finance (DeFi) spaces.

What is the role of regulation in the development and adoption of cryptocurrencies?

Regulation plays a crucial role in providing a framework for developers to build compliant products, protecting against nefarious activities, and ensuring that the technology can be deployed safely and effectively. However, the current regulatory environment is uncertain and can introduce friction for both developers and users.

Outlines

00:00

🚀 Introduction to Cryptocurrency Progress

The conversation begins with a discussion on the rapid progress in the cryptocurrency space, highlighting the need to define terms and understand the current state of digital currencies. The guest, Ryan Sax, shares his perspective on the mainstream interest in cryptocurrencies, the acceptance of Bitcoin as a Wall Street asset, and the overall growth of the crypto market. The focus is on the development of products that make cryptocurrencies more accessible and beneficial for the average person.

05:01

🌐 Mainstream Adoption and Developer Milestones

Ryan Sax elaborates on the milestones achieved in both the market and developer communities. He discusses the increased interest from the mainstream market, the Bitcoin ETF approval as a significant indicator of institutional interest, and the progress in developer communities to build products that make cryptocurrencies more user-friendly. The conversation touches on the evolution of blockchain technology, the importance of layer two and layer three solutions, and the anticipation for a product that can mimic the user experience of traditional banking systems.

10:02

🛠️ The Need for a Better Monetary System

The discussion delves into the advantages of cryptocurrencies over traditional banking systems, emphasizing the need for a fundamentally better way to hold and move money. Ryan Sax argues that cryptocurrencies offer a more efficient and cost-effective solution for transactions, with the potential to eliminate the frustrations associated with bank-imposed limitations. The conversation also addresses the concerns about the nefarious use of cryptocurrencies and the importance of developing a system that protects against such activities while promoting productive economic use.

15:04

🔍 Navigating Regulatory Challenges

The conversation addresses the challenges developers face in navigating the regulatory landscape, particularly in the United States. Ryan Sax discusses the uncertainty in regulations and the difficulties in adhering to existing banking regulations while building crypto-based products. He highlights the need for a clear regulatory framework that allows for innovation and protects against misuse, while also expressing optimism for the future of cryptocurrencies and their potential for mainstream adoption.

20:05

📈 Future of Cryptocurrency Development

Ryan Sax shares his insights on the future of cryptocurrency development, emphasizing the need for new application developers to build user experiences that are familiar to the average person. He discusses the importance of regulatory clarity and the potential for continued development in the wallet and decentralized finance (DeFi) spaces. The conversation also touches on the challenges of integrating cryptocurrencies with the banking system and the need for a compliance layer that adheres to existing regulations.

25:05

🎥 Conclusion and Call to Action

The conversation concludes with a summary of the key points discussed, including the progress in cryptocurrency adoption, the challenges faced by developers, and the potential for a better monetary system. The host thanks Ryan Sax for his contributions and invites viewers to explore more content on Eural University, which offers a wealth of information on cryptocurrencies, financial theories, and macroeconomic topics.

Keywords

💡Cryptocurrencies

Cryptocurrencies are digital or virtual currencies that use cryptography for security and operate on a decentralized system, typically a blockchain. In the video, cryptocurrencies are discussed as a fundamentally better way to hold and move money, with the potential to disrupt traditional banking systems. The conversation highlights the progress in the crypto space and the increasing mainstream interest in digital currencies.

💡Blockchain

Blockchain is a distributed ledger technology that records transactions across multiple computers in a way that ensures security and transparency. It is the underlying technology for cryptocurrencies. The video emphasizes the importance of blockchain development for making cryptocurrencies more accessible and beneficial for the average person, with advancements like layer two and layer three solutions to improve transaction speed and reduce costs.

💡Bitcoin ETF

A Bitcoin ETF (Exchange-Traded Fund) is a financial product that tracks the value of Bitcoin and allows investors to gain exposure to the cryptocurrency without directly owning it. The approval of a Bitcoin ETF is seen as a major milestone in the video, indicating broader institutional interest and acceptance of cryptocurrencies as an asset class.

💡Account Abstraction

Account abstraction in the context of cryptocurrencies refers to a design approach that simplifies the user experience by hiding the complexities of managing a crypto wallet. This concept is important in the video as it represents a step towards making cryptocurrencies more user-friendly and accessible to the mainstream market.

💡Layer Two and Layer Three

These terms refer to additional layers built on top of the main blockchain to improve its functionality, such as increasing transaction throughput and reducing fees. In the video, layer two and layer three solutions are discussed as key developments that make cryptocurrencies more practical for everyday use by reducing transaction times and costs.

💡Open Source

Open source refers to a philosophy and practice of allowing others to view, use, modify, and distribute a work under certain licenses. The video highlights the open-source nature of the crypto space, which fosters innovation and community-driven development, similar to the early days of the internet.

💡Regulation

Regulation in the context of cryptocurrencies refers to the rules and guidelines set by governing bodies to oversee and control the use of digital currencies. The video discusses the challenges developers face in navigating the regulatory landscape, which is often uncertain and subject to change, affecting the development and adoption of crypto products.

💡Non-Custodial Wallets

A non-custodial wallet is a type of cryptocurrency wallet where the user has full control over their private keys and is responsible for the security of their funds. The video mentions non-custodial wallets as a preferred development area for the crypto community due to the regulatory uncertainty surrounding custodial wallets that interact with the traditional banking system.

💡DeFi (Decentralized Finance)

DeFi refers to financial services built on blockchain technology that aim to replace traditional financial systems with decentralized alternatives. The video touches on DeFi as an experimental space within the crypto industry, where developers are exploring new ways to use digital money and financial services without the need for intermediaries.

💡Mainstream Adoption

Mainstream adoption refers to the widespread acceptance and use of a technology or product by the general population. In the video, the speakers discuss the potential for cryptocurrencies to achieve mainstream adoption by creating user experiences that mimic familiar financial practices and by addressing regulatory challenges.

Highlights

Cryptocurrencies are gaining mainstream attention and acceptance, with Bitcoin starting to be seen as a Wall Street asset.

There is a growing interest in cryptocurrencies beyond just the crypto community, with legitimate demand from various sectors.

The developer community has made significant progress in making cryptocurrencies more accessible and beneficial for the average person.

The Bitcoin ETF approval was a major indicator of broader institutional interest and acceptance of cryptocurrencies.

Cryptocurrencies are seen as a fundamentally better way to hold and move money, but products need to be built to prove this to people.

Developers have been waiting for technologies like account abstraction and layer two/three solutions to improve the user experience with cryptocurrencies.

The market has bounced back from the FTX collapse, with continued progress and ETF applications leading to acceptance.

The analogy of the Hydra is used to describe the resilience and growth of cryptocurrencies despite attempts to suppress them.

The open-source nature of the cryptocurrency space is one of the most active and dynamic environments.

Cryptocurrencies are still in their early stages, similar to the internet before the widespread adoption of web browsers.

The goal is to create an intuitive user experience for using cryptocurrencies that mimics the ease of traditional financial systems.

Cryptocurrencies offer the ability to confirm balances, own them, and move them without bank-imposed limitations.

The network agnostic nature of cryptocurrencies allows for unrestricted transactions as long as they are legal.

Regulatory uncertainty and the need for compliance with existing banking regulations are major challenges for developers.

The non-custodial wallet space and DeFi are areas of significant development and innovation.

The community remains optimistic despite regulatory challenges and the need for a more mature product experience.

The future of cryptocurrencies looks bright with the potential for mainstream adoption and the development of user-friendly applications.

Transcripts

all right welcome back to eural

University series digital currencies

crypto what is really happening in the

space as we talked about my previous

interview with Manny Rick and Cruz

there's a lot of progress happening in

cryptocurrencies and we really need to

Define our terms of cryptocurrencies but

our goal here is really to get some

information about what's happening in

the space from people who have been

living and working in it and who better

to talk to about cryptocurrencies and

everything that's happening then with

Ryan sax somebody who's been living in

digital currencies for pretty much your

whole Adult Career maybe thinking about

all of these detailed discussions and

all of the uh incredible complexities

that go into it and as part of your own

daily life and so what we're we're

really attempting to do here is to

bridge The Divide get some more

information about what's really

happening to cut through all the frankly

that goes on about crypto

cryptocurrency and see what's really

happening drill down into the to the

real Bedrock of progress that's being

made things that are happening and maybe

maybe to um to really get a better

understanding of why there is so much

interest in this to begin with maybe

that's a good place to start Ryan what

do you think it's cryptocurrency started

out as Bitcoin it seemed like a Fed it

seemed like this one little thing that

was happening and then more piled on

more piled on and here we are in 2024

and we are at eth Denver where there's a

whole lot of people here there's a whole

lot of interest around the main even the

mainstream media we've seen Bitcoin

start to get mainstream attention it's

now a Wall Street asset and things like

that so we're we're actually seeing

legitimate demand from not just crypto

crazy people it's really breaking into

mainstream so this is this is a longc

coming progress long long coming process

what is your perspective on all of that

uh um it's most exciting time uh since I

joined the space I think for a couple

reasons um just briefly thanks for for

letting me join you this is this is my

favorite type of conversation uh and I

love talking to you on any given

occasion but let's do it live this time

so that'll be fun

um okay so since uh since I came into

the space uh we've been from a

developers perspective we've been

waiting on a bunch of things to be built

that will make cryptocurrency more

accessible

more usable and ultimately more

beneficial for the average person um

ultimately whether they are specifically

interested in crypto or not I just think

about crypto as a fundamentally better

way to hold and move money uh but you

got to build products to prove that to

people right and so I say it's the most

exciting time since I join the space

right now because in the developer

Community there's been a bunch of

progress to unlock many of these uh

these sort of like mainstream product

experiences that people have been

waiting for but also as you uh as you

talked about the mass Market is paying

closer attention because there have been

a few Milestone events um the crypto

Market is hot there's no denying that

right now but obviously the Bitcoin ETF

approval was a major major um indicator

of broader institutional interest and

acceptance of this thing um you know

several of the uh of the funds offering

or administering an ETF were sort of

Bitcoin deniers five years ago yeah and

um have changed Tac of course it's

because there's money to be made there

but I think at some point in time over

the last five years Bitcoin has sort of

settled into a

fundamental uh level of acceptance um

with regard to its place in the market

um and I think a lot of Institutions

have just kind of been late to the game

to realize that but I should say still

early overall after trying to kill it

for so many years it's obvious it's not

going away and by it I don't just mean

Bitcoin obviously it it's the entire the

entire premise behind digital currencies

right they've tried time and time again

to strangle it in the crib and it it

only comes back stronger right so there

is definitely something there 100% it's

like a Hydra yeah basically my analogy

is it's like the Amazon and the

Everglades once they were let free it

was like the perfect environment now

that they've tried to eradicate the the

snakes they can't they just keep growing

and growing and growing get bigger and

bigger bigger totally I mean the whole

Space it's the open source space in

nature one of the most active I've ever

seen and there's sort of a Revenge of

the Nerds element I am with myself being

one and it's just I think everybody

watch this is some form of monetary nerd

so you're good company friends among

friends yeah so you talked about a

couple Milestones could you could you uh

give us a little bit more detail on what

that is yeah I think there are Market

milestones and developer Milestones that

are sort of coincidentally converging at

the same time right now and I I I

couldn't have predicted that um even two

years ago um but on the developer side

you know um it's taken a while uh maybe

twice as long as I expected several

years back but especially in the

ethereum community and some of the

alternative blockchains there's been

massive massive progress to sort of make

the the friction of just dealing with

blockchain to be able to relegate that

to the background from a product

Builder's perspective and so an end user

can use crypto and realize benefits from

it without necessarily having to uh know

all about crypto UPF front and so you

hear Buzz terms like account abstraction

the ethereum community right which most

simply um doesn't sort of could be

leveraged to not require a person to

understand the vagaries of a crypto

wallet in order to actually be using

crypto you hear things layer two layer

three which takes a bunch of sort of

data and transactional activity off the

main chain where it gets clogged and

expensive and slow and makes it fast and

cheap so that when I hit send the

payment can rece can be received um as

quickly as I would expect from a web 2

experience um but without middleman in

between and those are all things we've

been waiting on for years and as a

product Builder on top of them finally

you can construct a user experience that

makes sense to the average person or at

least we're very very close to getting

there and then on the market side um

just the bounceback from from FTX uh

which threw everything off we all know

about that but just the continued

progress fighting through these ETF

applications to get to a point of

acceptance and of course to get to that

point of acceptance you have a bunch of

people um sort of Talking Heads in the

market that people trust suddenly

advocating for this technology and they

weren't able to make sense of for make

sense of it five years ago maybe it was

a little bit too scary and too volatile

for them to really speak on behalf of uh

you know in the interest of their

shareholder base but now it's popular

again and it's far more accepted and all

of this has happened at once within the

bounds of the same sort of stretch of

six to eight months and it's just led to

a flourish of uh I think optimism which

is we've the the deepest developers

never really lose the optimism in the

space um but obvious viously the next

wave of adopters are going to go as the

market goes and right now the market

goes well with a lot of sort of

validation around us and so I think the

space is as bright as it's ever been and

I've been working in it for some time

and I feel as close as we've ever been

to being able to offer an end user an

intuitive benefit to using

cryptocurrency whether they care that

it's crypto or not and that last phrase

I think is pretty critical well that's

that's the Holy Grail isn't it because

once you get once you can closely mimic

the experience that anybody has today

than their usual than their trafi sense

of of how they move money and use money

and actually pay for things then it

becomes less of a of a maybe an

emotional hurdle totally totally there's

an analogy I like to use I believe it's

very true you know Bitcoin is 15 years

old since it first emerged from the

darkness on the internet right and um a

lot of people I think have expected more

from crypto in the last

seven years right I wrote my first

article on Bitcoin in 2013 yeah and I'm

still waiting it's it's and I I guess

what I would say to that and what I

would sort of what I would sort of argue

to people is it's actually still quite

early and the analogy I really like to

use I'm impatient is so am I I know and

when I started building I was some of

the things I just talked about some of

the progress I talked about being made

people asked me in you know 2017 or 18

when do you think these things will be

ready I said two years you know and it's

been six yeah um but it's still been

steady progress the analogy I love to

use is Bitcoin or not just Bitcoin

crypto has not had its Netscape moment

yet and so I think you know for those

who of us who are old enough to remember

the first time you know uh you we heard

about email and if you weren't sort of a

deeper user uh logging in uh through a

terminal being basically able to

participate in message passing online

through a terminal on your computer if

you weren't on that level you were

hearing these things about the worldwide

web and email and it didn't really make

sense it wasn't usable to you but you

understood it was a thing that was

coming because the narrative was

building and then finally Netscape came

out and lent sort of a mouse click and a

picture to this thing called the

internet which was just so abstract to

the mass sort of populace before that

point in time and we haven't had that in

blockchain or crypto yet we're close

though and I think for those of us who

are impatient myself included we have to

remember that by by that point in time

the internet and the worldwide web were

also years old there was years of Open

Source development for Progress to turn

into like protocol standards to be

adopted to ultimately enable the average

person to log in and message pass like

uh like people had been between in sort

of within Academia for a long time and

this feels similarly to me but there

hadn't been that product yet that just

like shows somebody this is a

fundamentally better way to hold and

move money just like the browser showed

people this is a fundamentally better

way to access information and send

messages but I think we're really really

close so when I say it's early I like to

have that in mind the internet didn't

really become the internet until the

worldwide web became consumable through

a web browser an AOL came about You've

Got Mail was marketed everybody and

ultimately gained a level of adoption

really quickly just because it was then

so easy to use and so easy to distribute

I think we're a step shter that but

we're we're really really close yeah I

think that's one of the mistakes that we

make we have the impression that

technology and adoption proceeds at a

rapid Pace because our perception is we

come at the end yep we at the end the Cy

we see like you're saying the internet

kind of just showed up at the end of the

90s and became ubiquitous yeah so for

most people it was like all of a sudden

it happened when there's this a long

long winding road to get to that point

yeah but as long as there is as you said

fundamentally a better idea then that

road continues to move forward and

that's why I think pivot here you said

crypto currencies and we're making

blanket statements so what take that for

whatever it is but it's a fundamentally

better way to do money could you could

you explain that a little bit Yeah I

think the simplest way to put it is um I

don't have to trust a bank to confirm my

balance which I'm I'm I'm largely fine

doing banks are obviously widely

accepted in the world but where that

really GRS me is uh when I have to

adhere to the limitations that my bank

imposes upon me to move my money right

when something comes up on short notice

at 5:00 pm on a Friday well then you're

hung out to dry right right when I have

to um send a transaction abroad there's

a arbitrary $30 fee for a transaction

that costs them marginally nothing to

confirm with a banking partner and so

those are the things I think the more

you run into those things the more

frustrated you tend to get I largely

trust my bank to have my balance correct

although there are very high-profile

examples recently of some of the bigger

banks in the US getting those wrong I'm

thinking about the Wells Fargo payroll

Fiasco a couple months back right um but

I don't really trust my money to move my

or my bank to move my money in the best

way I just kind of like have to deal

with it and um if you just want to start

there being able to confirm my balance

own it and move it at any hour of the

day to most anyone in the world so long

as they're not doing something nefarious

is just an expectation over time that I

have come to have for my money once

money went digital a couple decades ago

with online that's another big Point too

is that people don't realize this this

is nothing new totally a little bit of a

new way of doing it and getting around

some of the gates that have been thrown

up but it really it's it's fundamentally

the same idea it is and I think the

starting point that to realize for a lot

of people is you're already using

digital dollars yeah every time you

swipe your card and every time you send

a bank transfer we're using digital

dollars uh there are cryptocurrencies

called stable coins that are just

different digital dollars and they have

a really good track record of

maintaining their value and keeping it

stable and if you just opt into using

that digital dollar then you can get rid

of a lot of the restrictions we tend to

run run to and frustrate us over time

and all the while if you're comfortable

holding that money in a wallet that you

own it's just like hold money in your

wallet your everyday wallet cash you

control it and you decide what to do

with it and I think that's actually the

best user experience that I've ever had

with money it's just traditional cash I

can hand it over you accept it the

transactions confirmed between the two

of us and I can walk away with however

much money I still have left in my

wallet and so long as I don't put on the

top of my car when I'm filling up with

gas and drive away it's basically okay I

don't lose

and I think you can draw that analogy

pretty directly to just the ultimate

ease of using cryptocurrency once you

get used to the wallet experience and

when you combine that with no business

hours fast and cheap transfers and uh

sort of a network that's agnostic to who

I'm sending that money to and where um

so long as I'm good for my money it

leads to a user experience that I think

is much closer to cash and that many of

us would like to have with their digital

money today and that's another Point too

right the network is agnostic yeah to

what you're actually doing which is

something that that's going to come up

more and more as we continue to navigate

this kind of environment that we're in

right so that's when you're talking

about a better way to do money that is

certainly a big part of it too right

yeah I think it is um now obviously in

saying that I'm not implicitly endorsing

some nefarious use for sending money

around the world yeah but that you know

that's you know that that's that's one

of those absurd arguments that get

thrown up to why can't we use crypto

because criminals might actually use it

when we all know that criminals mostly

physical US dollars to do their their

dirty business yeah that's just one of

the things that the mainstream media and

the politicians are out there because

you know one of their one of their

attempts to throw up Gates on crypto

yeah that's been a narrative I've been

pretty uh pretty frustrated to see so

persistently hammered especially in

recent years because I think it honestly

just um conveniently looks past the

relevant data you know we've seen uh

we've seen articles issued and retracted

with wrong data about uh cryptocurrency

being used to actively fund terrorist

sort of terrorist activities around the

world um certainly you might look uh at

transactions and find an element of that

just like you would within the banking

system but they've been exag are going

to find a way to finance themselves

regardless and that's if we have a

better system that actually Pro provides

tangible benefits right why are we care

about that little tiny SL I mean I'm

saying we shouldn't care about terrorism

but that's not that's not a reason to

throw out the entire uh the entire all

the benefits that might ACR from a

better way of doing money yeah it's

something I really struggle with because

um you know

I it's a new technology that's not super

mature yet it's close to mature from the

mainstream perspective that's why we see

something like a Bitcoin ETF but there's

always this push and poll to letting

that type of fundamentally better new

technology flourish develop and

mitigating its downside effects for

people leveraging it for the wrong

reasons I think that's where you have to

control the banking Nexus in and out of

crypto uh and I do think think there's a

good reason for Regulators to focus on

that so people aren't using crypto and

pulling it into the banking system and

into currencies for for funding the

wrong things around the world but I

think part of the magic of it is this

sort of like fast and cheap confirmation

of of of any monetary transfer agnostic

to asking all kinds of validation

questions about where it's going why I'm

doing it and U storing that data about

my financial activity in some database

going forward and trying to um reason

about what I care about in the world and

uh if we are able to ultimately build a

monetary system where we're protect

against the downside activity at the

banking layer but allow the digital

money in between to flourish for

productive economic activity and for

rightful reasons then I think ultimately

we're getting there and we're getting to

sort of like the level of maturity we

need to have in order for the average

person to be able to use this whether

they care about the underlying protocol

or not um and like I keep saying I think

we're really really close to that

uh what are the what are the keys to

make that more of a reality so if we're

if crypto is in sort of an adolescent

stage yeah what does the late

adolescence early adulthood look like

there's uh there's three things that

come to mind one is most crypto products

today have been built for crypto people

by crypto people right with our very

unique and idiosyncratic uh user

experience expectations for interacting

with this technology so I think now uh a

new wave of application developers that

sort of build user experiences that are

more familiar to existing patterns in

the world for managing money and sending

money that'll happen that'll happen over

the next 12 months so I think that's

ultimately one thing that comes to mind

um I do think we're a regulatory step

away from sort of understanding how to

deploy this technology throughout the

world people that are really trying to

build this for the for Right Reasons

have been have been um open to

regulatory guidance which we haven't

really received uniformly certainly not

in the US but I think isn't that because

regulars themselves have no idea what

exactly they need to do I mean they

they're not really sure what

cryptocurrencies are they can't Define

it they can't put it into the box that

really helps them so in one sense

they're they're tailing along the

progress uh the the path of progress

that you're making and so it's an issue

of timing but it's also an issue of

you're just completely out of sync yeah

I think that's right there are some that

that become quite smart in the

technology it's just not a critical mass

yet right and obviously just speaking

within the US there's a coordination

problem between multiple agencies so one

might be quite smart and quite current

on it the other one might have its own

incentives incentives that are uh maybe

at odds and might uh understand the

technology or be thinking about it in a

different way and ultimately that makes

life a little bit harder for the

developer Community um again trying to

do this for the right reasons and

connected to the banking system for the

right reasons to understand how you do

it uh so I think we're still a step

we're still sort of a step slow on that

um but maybe the ETF approval will

accelerate many of those

conversations uh and so I think that

that's one thing that needs to happen in

order to like get us that breakthrough I

think you'll see a lot of continued

development on in the wallet space the

non-custodial space and in the defi

space um that's experimental but I think

as far as building mature product

experiences that not only touch crypto

but um allow you to seamlessly get in

and out of crypto from your bank we a

big regulatory step short of that and I

think we're waiting on it um the best we

can do today is adhere to existing

regulations about AML and money

transmission um and most sort of

application developers at least in the

US are trying to do that but it's a

little bit of Square Peg and round hole

Yeah and it really introduces a lot of

friction for the average user trying to

move into crypto from their bank or vice

versa well it's a source of huge

uncertainty on both sides yeah not only

the users are uncertain about what you

know what what they're going to expect

it's got to be as you're saying it's got

to be huge pain as a developer yeah

because you can do your best to adhere

to existing regulations but you damn

well know that there's more regulations

that are going to come down the road and

if you can't anticipate them um how do

you do that how do you actually continue

to develop I mean with with that level

of uncertainty it's it's it's incredibly

difficult yeah I think that that's why

most of the innovation has been on what

we call the non-custodial side uh of the

product Market which requires a person

to have a wallet that they manage

themselves um that doesn't really touch

the banking system because there's

uncertainty of sort of how you get and

out of the banking system itself and um

that's where the developer Community has

continued to really flourish that's

those are protocols those are

experiments right these are what we when

you hear the words tokens and defi these

are sort of people experimenting with

online money um with a user experience

that's fundamentally suboptimal for the

average person but that they understand

uh and that really keeps the progress of

this space moving forward but

ultimately to get this sort of like holy

grail of mainstream adoption this is a

phrase I've I've been sick of for years

but again we're still talking about it

mainstream adoption you have to allow

the average person to oneclick tap uh

and get their money in and out of the

system and if you are a developer the

best that you can do um if you're

connecting to the banking system and

trying to make this more accessible is

to add a compliance layer on top of your

product that aderes to existing banking

regulations and um that those so those

tools and and those user steps are

pretty well understood we've worked on

similar pro products ourselves But

ultimately um they not only add a lot of

friction to your user experience but

ultimately you're subject to banking

Partners um yeah telling you how those

things need to be implemented and adding

rules on top of them that haven't

actually been written into the

regulations and that's what's really

made life difficult over the last couple

years is you're trying to adhere to a

regulation as it is but ultimately you

know that's I think that's a point I

really want to emphasize here is that so

many of developers like yourself are

making good faith efforts here yeah you

hear so many bad stories about the bad

seeds that are doing bad things and they

are doing legitimately bad things but

they're just they're just the Bad Apple

and the huge barrel of a bunch of

developers who have not necessarily

unified Vision but as as a shared idea

and are doing as best as they possibly

can in an uncertain environment with

disruptive technology um which we all

know is going to produce radical changes

but you're you're doing it on a good

faith basis absolutely I think one one

major

uh point that I would make to people is

um you hear about some of the bad things

that happened the FTX hon you only hear

about the bad stuff but I've never been

part of a more optimistic space in

community um it's so impressive what

people are building it's so pure in a

way this what I love about open source

communities they're so Mission driven um

and sometimes uh ideologically driven in

in different ways that they have to

reconcile over time through code uh and

through engagement and it's just so

impressive what's happened even in the

short space of time that crypto has been

a thing uh so I remain fundamentally

optimistic in spite of that the

application sort of developers travails

with Regulators if you're trying to

touch the banking system have gotten

quite a bit more difficult one you know

one thing that might be interesting for

people to hear

is regulations are made and imposed in

sort of a layered way and you receive

legislation that authorizes Regulators

to implement legis ation and Rule make

on top of that

legislation and those are things that

are written in books that you can follow

but on top of that there's sort of this

third layer of of of Regulation that

that most people don't hear about that's

sort of like discretionary Ru making and

those are the things that aren't

explicitly authorized by legislation

that set forth some regulation we have

to follow those are interpretations of

the regulation or the legislation that

come after and what's gotten a little

bit more opaque and a little more

difficult especially in the US over the

last couple years is there have been a

lot of new interpret discretionary ruem

on top of the stuff that's written in

the books and so if you're trying to

build the right way to build a regulated

product that allows people to get in out

of crypto really easily you can follow

what's written in the books that's well

understood you know BSA AML kyc

regulations related to that money

transmission if you're doing that type

of activity within the US those are well

understood um things to comply with but

what's been the moving Target in the

background and you know you don't hear

very you don't hear much about very

often in the media is the discretion Ary

changes that are happening in terms of

how crypto projects in particular are

expected to implement those requirements

and those tend to change on very short

notice so you as a product Builder can

spend six months building an effective

compliance program to build a

crypto-based product one that follows

all the the relevant regulations but you

can be informed by a banking partner on

a Wednesday that they interpret a

certain regulation differently going

into next week probably because their

banking regulator came to them and

informed that opinion and it can

fundamentally change the way your

product is built and needs to work work

or can fundamentally change the user

experience and you have to figure out on

the Fly how to ultimately comply with

these uh sort of like moving Target

discretionary rules there is a lot more

in depth and detail to my conversation

with briyan saaks and of course I can't

thank him enough for taking time out of

his busy schedule to stop by and share

his his long career and all the insights

that he's built up about

cryptocurrencies and how to make them

into useful currency the very stuff that

we talk about here at iral University

the rest of that conversation is

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future ardal University memberships and

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for all the money in macro and again I

can't thank Ry sax enough for really

getting into this cryptocurrency the

real bubble which isn't about meme coins

and cowboys out there selling all sorts

of all sorts of just crypto stuff it's

about real people working to make money

useful an alternate form of money than

what we have now I think you highly

enjoy the rest of the conversation and

all the rest of the stuff that is

available at euro dollar . University as

always I thank you for joining me till

next time take

care