TOP IDEAS from Optimal Studying Protocols by Andrew Huberman
Summary
TLDRIn this podcast summary, the host delves into neuroscientist Andrew Huberman's insights on optimal learning protocols. They discuss the importance of focus and sleep for effective studying, debunk learning styles, and emphasize the brain's neuroplasticity during learning. The host outlines five habits of high-performing students, including consistent study times and teaching others, and introduces a study technique where testing oneself after learning offsets forgetting by up to 50%. Additional tips like the 'gap effect' and the role of emotions in learning are also highlighted to enhance retention and understanding.
Takeaways
- π§ Learning is about offsetting forgetting and involves the process of neuroplasticity, where the nervous system changes as we learn.
- πͺ The best learning techniques are effortful and slightly difficult, as learning requires effort to change the nervous system.
- π§ββοΈ Meditation can help improve focus, which is crucial for effective learning, by training the brain to refocus attention.
- π€ Sleep, particularly REM sleep, is essential for learning as it's when the brain reorganizes and consolidates the learned material.
- π Non-sleep deep rest (NSDR) can also facilitate learning by allowing the brain to enter a state similar to deep sleep for neural reorganization.
- π Effective students study consistently and for a limited time each day, usually 3-4 hours, to maximize focus and retention.
- π« They minimize distractions and create a dedicated study environment to enhance concentration and learning efficiency.
- π£οΈ Teaching the material to others or explaining it out loud is a powerful way to reinforce learning and identify knowledge gaps.
- π Actively testing oneself through methods like past papers or self-quizzing is more effective for learning than repeated studying of the material.
- β€οΈ Having a deep, intrinsic motivation for studying, beyond external pressures, is a common trait among high-performing students.
- β±οΈ The 'testing effect' significantly offsets forgetting, making frequent testing a more effective study approach than repeated studying.
Q & A
What is the main focus of the podcast by neuroscientist Andrew Huberman?
-The podcast by Andrew Huberman focuses on optimal protocols for studying and learning, providing new insights on how to learn effectively.
What does the speaker believe is the fundamental aspect of learning?
-The speaker believes that the fundamental aspect of learning is not about retaining information but about offsetting the process of forgetting.
How does the speaker describe neuroplasticity in relation to learning?
-Neuroplasticity is described as the process where the nervous system, including the brain and muscles, changes and shifts as a result of learning.
What does the speaker suggest is a common misconception about learning styles?
-The speaker suggests that the common belief in distinct learning styles such as visual, auditory, or kinesthetic is not entirely accurate, and most people learn in a pretty similar way.
Why does the speaker argue that learning should be effortful and slightly difficult?
-Learning should be effortful and slightly difficult because it involves changing and shifting the nervous system, which requires effort and friction.
What are the two essential elements required for effective learning and studying according to the speaker?
-The two essential elements required for effective learning and studying are focus and sleep.
How does meditation help in improving focus according to the podcast?
-Meditation helps in improving focus by training the brain to refocus attention, as it involves refocusing on the breath every time the mind wanders.
What is the significance of REM sleep in the learning process as mentioned in the podcast?
-REM sleep is significant in the learning process because it is during this stage that neurons change and the learning actually takes place, allowing for the rewiring of the brain.
What alternative to sleep does the speaker introduce for neural rewiring?
-The speaker introduces non-sleep deep rest (NSDR) as an alternative to sleep, which allows the brain to enter a sleep-like state for neural rewiring without actually sleeping.
What is the most effective study technique discussed in the podcast?
-The most effective study technique discussed is active testing of the material learned, which can offset forgetting by up to 50% and is more beneficial than repeatedly studying the material.
How do the habits of high-performing students differ from typical students according to the podcast?
-High-performing students differ by studying for shorter, more focused periods, having zero distractions, studying consistently throughout the week, teaching the material to others, and having deep motivation for their studies.
Outlines
π Optimal Learning Techniques
The speaker shares insights from a podcast by neuroscientist Andrew Huberman on effective learning strategies. They discuss their own journey to optimize learning for academic success and personal growth. The podcast challenges conventional wisdom, emphasizing that learning is about preventing forgetting rather than merely retaining information. It introduces the concept of neuroplasticity, where the nervous system changes as we learn, and highlights the importance of effort in the learning process.
π§ The Science of Learning and Forgetting
This section delves into the science behind learning and memory, explaining that learning is an effortful process designed to counteract forgetting. The speaker refutes the idea of distinct learning styles, suggesting most people learn in similar ways. They introduce the concept of neuroplasticity, where the nervous system physically changes as we learn. The speaker also critiques quick-fixε¦δΉ ζΉζ³, advocating for a more deliberate and challenging approach to studying.
π The Crucial Role of Sleep in Learning
The speaker underscores the importance of sleep, particularly REM sleep, for the consolidation of learning. They explain that studying and learning are not the same as the neural changes that occur during sleep. The section also introduces the concept of non-sleep deep rest (NSDR), which can mimic some of the benefits of sleep for learning. The speaker shares personal strategies for enhancing focus, including meditation and self-talk, and emphasizes the need for a consistent study routine.
π Effective Study Habits of High-Performing Students
The speaker outlines five habits common among high-performing students: studying for a maximum of 3-4 hours a day, creating a distraction-free environment, studying consistently throughout the week, teaching the material to others, and having a deep motivation for studying. They discuss the benefits of each habit, such as focusing on peak brain efficiency times and the value of active recall through teaching and self-explanation.
π The Power of Active Recall and Testing
This section highlights the effectiveness of active recall and testing as learning methods. The speaker shares research indicating that testing oneself, even with incorrect answers, can significantly reduce forgetting. They contrast this with the common approach of repeated studying, which can create a false sense of confidence. The speaker encourages the use of past papers and self-testing to identify knowledge gaps and enhance learning. They also introduce the 'testing effect' and the importance of emotions in the learning process.
π§ Enhancing Learning Through Emotion and Reflection
The speaker discusses how emotions can enhance learning, suggesting that heightened emotional states can make learning more effective. They also introduce the 'gap effect,' where pausing for a brief period after learning can help consolidate information. The speaker concludes with advice on using these techniques to improve retention and understanding, emphasizing the importance of reflection and emotional engagement in the learning process.
Mindmap
Keywords
π‘Neuroscientist
π‘Optimal protocols
π‘Neuroplasticity
π‘Forgetting
π‘Focus
π‘Sleep
π‘Nonsleep deep rest (NSDR)
π‘Active recall
π‘Familiarity vs. Mastery
π‘Emotions
Highlights
Andrew Huberman's podcast offers new insights on effective learning and studying.
Learning is about offsetting forgetting rather than just retaining information.
Neuroplasticity is the process by which nerves in our body change and shift as we learn.
Effortful and slightly difficult learning techniques are often the most effective due to the nature of neuroplasticity.
Focus is a finite but renewable resource that is essential for learning.
Meditation can help train focus and is recommended for 5 to 10 minutes a day.
Sleep, particularly REM sleep, is crucial for the learning process as it's when neurons rewire.
Nonsleep deep rest (NSDR) can provide similar benefits to sleep for learning.
High-performing students study for 3 to 4 hours a day, maximizing their focus during peak times.
Zero distractions are a key habit of effective students.
Consistent daily studying is more effective than cramming before deadlines.
Teaching the material to others is a powerful way to reinforce learning.
Deep motivation for studying is a common trait among high-achieving students.
Testing oneself after learning material is more effective than repeated studying.
Testing can offset forgetting by up to 50%, making it a superior method for learning.
The 'testing effect' is more beneficial than the 'spacing effect' for learning retention.
The Gap Effect suggests that pausing after learning can help consolidate information.
Emotions play a significant role in learning, with heightened emotions improving retention.
Transcripts
so I recently watched this new podcast
by the neuroscientist Andrew hubman
about optimal protocols for studying and
learning and this podcast is very very
interesting because for the past 10
years I've really been working hard to
optimize how well I study how well I
learn so that I can get straight A's but
also I like to learn outside of school I
have a Kindle I literally love to learn
but this podcast blew my mind because it
gave me a bunch of new insights on
learning and how to learn effectively
some things I kind of knew unconsciously
and I was doing some new things that
I've never heard before so I'm going to
summarize in this video this podcast cuz
Andrew hubman he's a legend he talks a
lot about science he's you know well
educated but anyway so what I'm going to
talk about in this video first of all
I'm going to tell you really quick what
learning is then I'm going to tell you
the two things required to learn and
study effectively and then I'm going to
give you the five habits of high
performing students and then finally I'm
going to tell you a study technique or a
study approach which this blew my mind
when I first heard about this it is so
effective it's literally so effective it
offsets for getting by up to 50% and
most students never do this they
approach studying in a completely wrong
way so let's get into it so okay real
quick down first link in the description
or second link join my Discord server
I'm active in there all the time I want
to see you in there okay so real quick
in this video okay so what exactly is
learning this is very very interesting
to know so so learning people think of
learning as like you know I'm a visual
learner I'm an auditory learner I'm a
you know kinesthetic learner I learn
best by like punching the air or
whatever learning styles right
apparently this is Cap not really fully
cap but apparently this is actually not
completely true most people study and
learn in a pretty similar way so so this
was interesting when I first heard about
it learning is not about retaining
information it's not about like holding
on to what you're learning learning is
about offsetting forgetting
so when you look at something for the
first time you're going to know it right
but then you over time you're going to
forget it what learning actually is is
stopping that process of forgetting so
that's what this video is going to be
about it's going to be about how not to
forget so what exactly is learning
basically in our body we have a nervous
system right a bunch of nerves that go
everywhere our brain is a part of our
nervous system our muscles are a part of
our nervous system and when we learn
these nerves literally change and shift
it's called neuroplasticity because our
body our nervous system l changes as we
learn so the process of learning is
about changing our nervous system and
here's the very very interesting thing
it's a very fundamental rule of learning
learning is meant to be effortful it's
meant to be slightly difficult because
think about it you're literally shifting
and changing your nervous system that
takes effort that's T that takes
friction so a general rule is the best
learning techniques the best learning
approaches are going to be slightly
effortful slightly difficult and this is
what I really really hate about you
YouTubers study YouTubers study Tik
tokers or whatever telling people that
learning is effortful like I always say
in my videos you have to focus really
hard when you study make sure you do
deep work you know test yourself or
whatever this is not the sexy answer
because people want to hear you know top
five quick tips to instantly get
straight A's this is what people want to
click on this this is what people are
interested in cuz people are lazy people
want the quick way to study that's why
these study YouTubers bait you by giving
you these quick fixes but what I learned
from this podcast is that
hard studying learning is meant to be
effortful it's meant to take friction so
forget about the Quick Fix to studying
well and get used to it it's going to be
effortful it's going to be difficult I'm
going to tell you how it is it's not the
sexy answer but it's the thing that will
get you the good grades so let's get
right into it the two steps to learn
what is required there's two things
required the first thing is focus and
the second thing is sleep now you're
going to probably want to skip this P
you're going to be like oh give me the
quick tips give me the tactics but let
me give you some tips here to improve
your focus so basically I always talk
about this in all my videos Focus but
it's 100% true you have to be actively
you have to be actively engaged with the
material to learn cuz when you're
focusing you're telling your neurons hey
bro it's time to change it's time to
modify yourselves because we've got some
new we're learning here so I'm
going to talk about Focus really quick
here because I talk about Focus all the
time in my videos I'll give you some new
things here but focus is all about
bringing your attention back to the
Mater materials you're studying you're
reading you're watching a lecture focus
is literally just about bringing your
attention back and that's why it's
painful it's effortful because bringing
your attention back is hard because your
mind constantly wants to distract you
with random so focus is about
being alert being attentive focusing on
the material so here's a tip that I
found very interesting in this video
that I actually do a lot of focusing is
about how you talk to yourself in your
brain so if you're literally telling
yourself okay this information I'm
learning here this thing I'm reading is
so important I need to learn this I need
to know this your brain is going to
start paying attention but how do most
students talk to themselves they're like
oh bro I got to do this I can't wait to
go play basketball later you know I
can't believe I have to study this is so
painful this is the opposite of focus
your brain is going to focus away from
the material because you don't want to
do it so you need to talk to yourself
like a coach you need to Hype yourself
up this isn't in the podcast but this is
what I personally do you need to Hype
yourself up you need to be like okay
this I'm learning is so important I
need to know this let's pay attention
bro me personally I hype myself up I'm
like okay let's let's go boys let's
learn about the Taylor series let's go
and I get hyped you talk to yourself in
your brain and you're more likely to
focus you're going to take this
seriously so a quick tip here on how to
improve your focus that he talks about
in this video a tactic you can use to
train your focus every single day is 5
to 10 minutes of meditation now the
reason for this is because meditation is
essentially a refocusing exercise for
example let's say you focus on your
breath every time you what meditation is
is you sit down an example of meditation
you sit down and you literally just
focus on your breath now every time you
focus on your breath you're going to get
random thoughts and when you get those
random thoughts you simply bring your
focus back to your breath what this does
is it trains your focus system to bring
your your attention back to your breath
now there's many benefits of meditation
there's many approaches to it I won't
get into it too much in this video but
what he says is 5 to 10 minutes of
meditation a day will literally blow up
your ability to focus so this is one of
the many benefits of meditation okay so
yeah that's the first thing alertness
Focus you want to be alert on the
material learning and the second thing
to learning is sleep you're going to
want to skip this and you're going to
think like I forget about sleep bro I
don't give a about that you know
most students they want to do all NS but
sleep is essential Because deep sleep
specifically remm rapid eye movement
sleep is when your neurons actually
change and the learning happens when you
sit down and you study that's not when
the Learning Happens The Learning
Happens at night when you're sleeping
and you're neurons are being rewired
this is the problem with all nighters
when you do an all nighter your neurons
don't have a chance to rewire so you're
not actually learning so you're not
actually learning the material on a deep
level so this is why I think you know a
lot of the time all nighers are
completely pointless you know avoid them
as much as possible I think in
University I did I did one all nigher I
remember for an assignment but I don't
think I did any more than one all nigher
I think I did one maybe two Max all
nighters I almost never did them because
you can 100% avoid them maybe I'll talk
about it in other videos here's
something mindblowing I want to tell you
you don't necessarily have to sleep this
is why I learned from this podcast but I
kind of already knew this you don't
necessarily need to sleep to get those
neurons to rewire to learn you can do
something called nonsleep deep rest you
can access those deep sleep states
without actually sleeping now this is
mind-blowing there's this practice
called nsdr nonsleep deep rest if you've
never done this before it's going to
blow your mind it's going to feel like
you've slept for like a couple hours and
you're not even going to go to sleep so
what you do is you lie down in your bed
and you listen to a script search it up
on YouTube nsdr you listen to the script
and it puts you into this kind of like
sleep-like state where your body is
fully asleep and maybe your brain is
asleep I'm not 100% sure but it allows
you to feel alert and rested it feels
like you're napping but you're not
actually taking a nap and during these
nsdr rests learning also takes place I
actually do this most days nsdr so if
you've never heard of it I highly
recommend you do it it will boost your
energy in the middle of the day if
you're tired and it will help you with
learning as I heard from this video okay
now I'm going to tell you about the five
habits of these 700 medical students
that they interviewed they all had very
similar habits when it came to studying
and I realized that I did these as well
so I talk about a lot of these habits in
my videos so I'm going to talk about it
very briefly and then I'm going to tell
you about that study technique that is
mind blowing when I learned about it so
the first thing is all these students
they interviewed only studied about 3 to
4 hours a day maximum and I 100% agree
with this I study honestly about two
maybe 3 hours a day maximum so these
students have really learned to focus
and really do deep work and learn
effectively if you want to learn more
about how to focus really intensely and
do deep work go watch my video on how to
build a deep work habit or go watch my
video how I study two hours a day but
the first habit that these students do
is they set aside time every single day
to study now I know it sounds obvious
but they literally schedule into their
calendar when they're going to study
they know exactly when during the day
their brain is most alert for example
for me it's late at night and early in
the morning they will literally schedule
the time that they're going to study and
they will make it an effort to actually
study during that time now I know it
sounds obvious but this is because Focus
this is very interesting focus is a
finite but renewable resource so when
you Focus it's going to run out
throughout the day students they study
all day but the reality is focus runs
out it drains it's like your stamina you
can't run forever same thing with Focus
you can't focus forever so Focus will
run out so these students they set aside
time to study and they don't aim to
study all day because they know their
focus is going to be drained so they
they work on using their focus as
effectively as possible they study at
the times of the day that their brain is
most efficient and they study deeply and
effectively now the second habit of
these students that they interviewed is
they have zero distractions they turn
away their phone they message their
family telling them telling them hey bro
hey hey Mom I can't be contacted for two
hours I'm going to study they isolate
themselves they study in an area with no
distractions I study I work right here
because there's no going on in my
peripheral vision there's nothing to
disturb me you know I'll message people
and I'll say like hey I can't talk for a
couple hours you know isolate yourself
go into your Batcave and the third habit
this is very interesting they study
consistently so what do I mean by this
most students they will study when a
deadline is approaching or they'll do
like 10 hours on the weekend before
their homework is due what these
effective students did was they spread
their study out throughout the week they
studied at least 5 days a week but they
made sure to study consistently
throughout the week rather than patching
it all into one day this is partly to do
with offsetting forgetting because if
you're studying every single day you're
reminding yourself of the material
you're not going to forget it as easily
if you study for like 20 hours on one
day on Sunday for example you're going
to forget all that material your focus
is going to run out it's much better to
spread that workout throughout the week
and now the fourth habit of effective
students this this was very interesting
actually they teach they teach the
material to their fellow students now
this is something that I really like to
do in high school I really like to like
talk to my friends in school and teach
them the material that they didn't
understand the reason I love making
YouTube videos one of the reasons I
started this YouTube channel is cuz I
love to teach I love to explain things
in my own way of understanding and I
love that feeling when people are
understanding my teachings so what
highly effective students do is they
teach the material to their friends now
I was talking to the people in my
Discord server about this but some of us
we like to teach ourselves as well and
this is also super effective I love to
talk to myself maybe I'm crazy but I
love to talk to myself and explain the
material out loud you know if I'm
learning something I'll just like speak
it out loud and I'll pretend I'm
teaching someone but really it's just my
inner dialogue being let out into the
world I don't I don't know what I'm
talking about right now but for example
these videos these YouTube videos to be
honest this is how I talk to myself all
I'm doing is I'm simply clicking record
and recording me talking to myself so
yeah teaching is an effective way to see
your gaps in your knowledge and make
sure that you really understand the
material and you're not just memorizing
so the final thing to do with these
effective students they all have deep
motivation
for studying so what I realized about
the majority of students is the reason
they study is because they have to
because they're supposed to study it's
like oh my teacher told me to do this
homework all my parents want me to study
to get good grades they don't have a
deep inner reason to study they
motivation for studying is out there
it's like all my parents told me all my
teachers told me but all these effective
students they had a deep deep reason a
motivation to study and do well you know
maybe it's cuz they wanted to get a
really good job maybe it's because they
knew how the their grades would affect
their family in the future maybe they
just love to learn the material for me
that was one of my biggest motivations I
love to learn the material so where you
get your motivation is there's many you
got to find your motivation basically
and this is why it's good to let people
coach you and help you find your
motivations for studying or find it on
your own just take some time to think
and ask yourself why am I studying you
know what is it I want in my life you
know I won't talk too much about this
okay so now I'm going to tell you about
the most effective technique approach to
studying and I realized I kind of do
this on my own but I don't do it as much
as I should and this blew my mind
because most students don't do this so
the most effective method okay first I'm
going to tell you about the study that
they did so they had a couple groups of
students one group of students they had
them study the material four times the
next group of students they had them
study the material three times and then
take a test and the third group of
students they had them study the
material once and take three tests and
which group of students do you think did
the best it was that group of students
who studied the material once and took
three tests now this is absolutely
mindblowing what this means is that
testing is actually the most effective
method to learn and what he said in this
video was that testing offsets
forgetting by up to 50% if you test
yourself immediately after you learn the
material it offset sets forgetting by up
to 50% and this is crazy because it
doesn't seem like it because if you
study and you take a test and you get
like everything wrong that's actually
still very good you're actually still
learning but it you it destroys your
confidence it makes you feel like oh bro
I don't know know this material at all
compare that to how most students do it
they study the material and then they
study it again and again and again and
again and it makes them feel more
confident the more they study the
material but what they found with this
study is that actually the better
approach is to test yourself more so
even though testing destroys your
confidence it's actually much better for
Learning and if you study the material
over and over and over again it gives
you this false sense of confidence so I
remember in my first year of University
I was doing calculus 2 and I did all the
past papers you know I was hyped I was
ready for the test and I had this friend
who spent way more time studying the
material than me but his approach I knew
he was I knew he was screwed for the
exam because his approach to studying
calculus was to just go over the
lectures over and over and over again
and he knew the material really really
well he went over the lectures over and
over and over again but he ended up
failing the subject and the reason for
that I realize now is because he never
tested himself on the material he never
did past papers yeah going over the
material again and again gives you this
false sense of confidence because
there's a difference between familiarity
and Mastery Mastery is when you truly
have like a grasp of the concepts and
you can really use them well while
familiarity is simply recognizing the
material and you know being able to see
it from a distance that's why don't test
yourself with multiple choice questions
because multiple choice questions test
your familiarity you want to attest your
you want to test your active recall your
ability to actually bring the material
up and answer open-ended questions so
how exactly do you test yourself okay
pass papers that's one way I always talk
about in my videos to do a ton of
past papers to spam past papers cuz when
you test yourself that's when the
learning actually happens but you don't
just have to do past papers you can also
test yourself in your own mind so
ideally you want to do this as soon as
possible after you learn the material so
what I personally do is I'll sit down
I'll read like a chunk of the textbook
for example and when I start to feel
like okay I'm learning a lot here let's
see what I've learned I'll kind of go
back and I'll summarize the material in
my own kind of understanding I don't
know how to explain it but I'll have
like a visual going on in my mind where
I'll like try to like see if I
understand the concepts and I'll look
for like the gaps in my knowledge so for
example I'll learn about you know some I
was I was studying engineering for
example I was learning about some kind
of like you know engineering protocol
example for example and I'll read over
that I'll you know be alert I'll focus
on it I'll learn it and then afterwards
I'll kind of test myself I'll be like
okay do I understand this whole process
I'll go through every step and I'll look
for the gaps in my knowledge and I'll
search it up and I'll look learn it so I
do that test yourself in your own mind
make sure make sure you understand it
and also you know do past papers do
questions so testing yourself is
literally the most effective thing
possible like he showed in the study
it's better to study the material once
and then test yourself over and over
again than it is to just keep going over
the material even if you're getting
answers wrong getting an answer wrong
signals to your nervous system that we
need to learn the we need to
remember this so even if you're
getting questions wrong when you're
testing yourself that's completely fine
you're still learning it might tank your
confidence but you need to understand
that it's actually helping you so don't
let it tank your confidence you know
failure mistakes are where the real
learning happens okay I'm going to give
you two more quick like insights tips
here that are very very interesting that
I found one thing is called let me I
can't remember what it was called I
think it's called The Gap effect
basically if you learn something say for
example you read a chapter of a book or
something and you simply pause for 5 to
30 seconds your brain is quickly
reviewing that material faster than if
you were just learning it so how do we
use this effectively this this is
mind-blowing when I first learned about
this because apparently if you're
reading something learning something and
you simply pause for 5 to 30 seconds
don't check your phone don't do that
random just sit and do nothing
for 5 to 30 seconds your brain in the
background specifically your hippocampus
will actually be reviewing the material
so how do we use this effectively I I
realize I actually do this kind of
naturally when I read when I'm reading a
book I would just kind of pause every
now and then and just sit there and like
let my brain go over the material of
what I just learned rather than like
plowing through and reading and reading
so how do you use this effectively every
now and then just stop just stop and
just sit there for 5 to 30 seconds and
let your brain review what you just
learned okay and the second tip that's
very very interesting that I want to
tell you is learning is connected to
emotions now this is this this is
actually going to be pretty obvious when
you think about it let's say you this is
pretty sad let's say you see a car crash
happen you are going to remember that
very very vividly because it put you in
a state of like fear it heightened your
emotions so actually if you heighten
your emotions you're much more likely to
learn a very very good example of this
is if you're excited you're super super
hyped and interested about the material
learning maybe you're super curious
about what you're learning or maybe
you've got a teacher who's really really
good and he explains the material very
very well so if you're excited your
emotions are very very high and you're
going to learn much better so go watch
my video how to actually enjoy studying
I teach you how to get a bit more hyped
a bit more excited about your studies
which will actually help you learn
better but if you don't have a good
teacher a teacher who's not super hype
super you know makes the material very
exciting it can be a bit harder to learn
because your emotions are going to be
lower but yeah so I'll leave you on this
if you want to remember what you learned
into this video take a pause after this
video and test yourself a little bit fly
through the material of what I just
taught you summarize it see where your
gaps are come back to the video and
learn those parts again so yeah try
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