#47: Why do marketers suck at positioning? With April Dunford
Summary
TLDRIn this episode of 'Nudge to Consumer Psychology Podcast', host Phil Agnew explores the common pitfalls in marketing positioning with positioning specialist April Dunford. They discuss why marketers often fail to effectively communicate a product's unique value, using the miso soup analogy to illustrate the importance of context in perception. Dunford emphasizes that positioning is not just about messaging or branding but is foundational to all marketing efforts, defining the competitive alternative, differentiating value, target audience, and market category. The episode highlights the necessity of clear positioning for successful marketing strategies.
Takeaways
- π Positioning is a misunderstood concept in marketing, often confused with messaging, taglines, vision, or branding.
- π Rory Sutherland's book 'Alchemy' uses the miso soup analogy to illustrate how positioning can dramatically change product perception.
- π― April Dunford emphasizes that positioning is not just about branding or outcomes but is fundamental to all marketing efforts.
- π Positioning is defined as how an offering is uniquely qualified to deliver value to a well-defined set of customers, including the competitive alternative, differentiation, value, target audience, and market category.
- π‘ Context setting is crucial in positioning; it provides consumers with the necessary background to quickly understand what an offer is and its value.
- π¬ The opening scene of a movie analogy is used to explain the importance of context in positioning, setting the stage for understanding the rest of the story or marketing message.
- π« Without proper positioning, marketing and sales efforts can be misdirected, with teams spending time undoing incorrect assumptions rather than highlighting unique value.
- π» The story of Joshua Bell playing in a subway demonstrates how context can drastically affect perception and value, even for something as universally recognized as music.
- π Marketers often struggle with positioning due to a focus on tactics and a lack of perceived control over target markets or product definitions.
- π April Dunford's experience shows that without clear positioning, even the best marketing tactics can fail, leading to 'polishing poo' rather than creating value.
- π οΈ Effective positioning is foundational to successful marketing, and marketers must ensure it is addressed before moving on to tactics and campaigns.
Q & A
What is the main topic of the podcast episode?
-The main topic of the podcast episode is the importance of positioning in marketing and why marketers often struggle with it.
Who is the host of the podcast?
-Phil Agnew is the host of the podcast.
What is the example used in the podcast to illustrate the importance of positioning?
-The example used is Rory Sutherland's hypothetical scenario involving miso soup, which demonstrates how positioning can change our perception of a product.
Who is April Dunford and what is her role in the podcast?
-April Dunford is a positioning specialist and a globally recognized expert in positioning and market strategy. She is invited on the show to discuss the confusion surrounding positioning and to provide insights on effective positioning.
What is the definition of positioning according to the podcast?
-Positioning defines how your offering is uniquely qualified to deliver some kind of value that a well-defined set of customers cares a lot about.
What are the five key elements included in the definition of positioning mentioned in the podcast?
-The five key elements are the competitive alternative, the differentiation in capabilities, the differentiated value, the ideal customer profile or target audience, and the market category or the market you intend to win.
What is the concept of 'context setting' in positioning as discussed in the podcast?
-Context setting in positioning refers to providing the necessary context for customers to quickly understand what the product or service is, its value, and what to expect from it, similar to the opening scene of a movie setting the scene for the story.
Why is context setting important in marketing according to the podcast?
-Context setting is important because it helps customers quickly understand the product or service, its value, and how it's different from competitors, which in turn reduces the need for extensive marketing efforts to explain these aspects.
What is the example of Joshua Bell used in the podcast to illustrate the impact of context on perception?
-The example of Joshua Bell, a world-famous violinist, playing in a subway station instead of a concert hall shows how changing the context can significantly affect the perception and reception of the same performance.
What is the 'status quo bias' mentioned by April Dunford in the podcast?
-Status quo bias is the resistance to change something because it has always been done a certain way, which can hinder the recognition and rectification of poor positioning.
Why do marketers struggle with positioning according to April Dunford?
-Marketers struggle with positioning because they tend to focus on tactics rather than the foundational aspects of marketing like positioning. They may also feel that defining the target market or the value proposition is not their job, leading to weak inputs and outputs in their marketing efforts.
What is the advice given by April Dunford for dealing with poor positioning?
-April Dunford advises that marketers should not accept poor positioning and should drive efforts to fix it by working with the CEO, head of sales, and head of product, as it is a team sport and fixing positioning is crucial for the success of marketing tactics.
What is the 'Science of Marketing' course mentioned in the podcast?
-The 'Science of Marketing' course is a new offering by the podcast host that aims to help listeners understand the science behind effective marketing, covering consumer psychology and its application in marketing strategies.
Outlines
π Introduction to Positioning in Marketing
The podcast episode begins with an introduction to the concept of positioning in marketing. The host, Phil Agnew, discusses the common pitfalls of poor positioning, where companies promote irrelevant benefits or features. He uses an example from Rory Sutherland's book 'Alchemy' to illustrate how positioning can drastically change product perception. Phil then introduces April Dunford, a positioning specialist, who clarifies that positioning is often misunderstood and distinct from messaging, taglines, vision, or branding. April emphasizes the importance of positioning as a fundamental aspect of marketing strategy, defining it as the unique qualifications of an offering to deliver value to a specific customer set.
π¬ The Power of Context in Positioning
April Dunford explains the importance of context in positioning, comparing it to the opening scene of a movie that sets the stage for the viewer's understanding. She uses the analogy to describe how positioning provides the necessary context for consumers to quickly grasp what a product is and its value. Without proper context, consumers may misinterpret the product's purpose, pricing, and features. April also shares a real-world example of how changing the context, such as placing renowned violinist Joshua Bell in a subway station instead of a concert hall, can lead to a drastically different perception and outcome.
π The Impact of Positioning on Marketing Assumptions
This section delves into how the context set by positioning influences the assumptions made by potential customers. April Dunford provides examples to show how different positioning contexts can lead to different sets of assumptions about a product, affecting its perceived competition, pricing, and features. She illustrates this with a hypothetical product that could be positioned as an 'email' tool or a 'chat' service, highlighting how these different contexts would lead to different customer expectations and marketing strategies.
π Case Study: Loom's Unique Positioning Strategy
The script discusses Loom, a video recording service, as an example of effective positioning. Instead of focusing on the technical aspects of video recording, Loom positions itself as a replacement for meetings, thereby changing customer expectations. This unique positioning has led to significant growth and a large user base. The host also expresses confusion about why marketers often struggle with positioning despite their education and experience in the field.
π€ Challenges Marketers Face with Positioning
April Dunford addresses the challenges marketers face with positioning, attributing it to a focus on tactics rather than strategic positioning. She explains that marketers often feel they have no control over the target market or product definition, leading to a lack of emphasis on positioning. April also discusses the 'status quo bias' and how the effects of positioning are not always clear, making it difficult to identify when positioning is the root cause of marketing struggles.
π The Importance of Positioning in Marketing Success
The final paragraph emphasizes the foundational role of positioning in marketing success. April Dunford shares her personal experience, realizing that without strong positioning, all marketing efforts would be futile. She stresses the importance of addressing positioning before focusing on tactics and that the best marketers ensure positioning is correct before proceeding. The episode concludes with an invitation for listeners to join the next episode, where the five components of effective positioning will be discussed.
Mindmap
Keywords
π‘Positioning
π‘Marketers
π‘Product Features
π‘Tagline
π‘Value Proposition
π‘Competitive Alternative
π‘Customer Perception
π‘Context Setting
π‘Branding
π‘Status Quo Bias
π‘Tactics
Highlights
The importance of positioning in marketing and how it can dramatically change the perception of products and services.
Positioning is a misunderstood concept, often confused with messaging, taglines, vision, or branding.
April Dunford's definition of positioning as a framework for understanding the unique value proposition for a well-defined customer set.
Positioning is not just an output of marketing but a fundamental component that influences all marketing strategies.
The analogy of positioning to the opening scene of a movie, setting the context for understanding the narrative.
The impact of positioning on how customers quickly understand and evaluate a product without needing extensive information.
The story of Joshua Bell and the importance of context in recognizing and valuing expertise.
Positioning as a tool to avoid misinterpretation of messaging, pricing, features, and branding.
April Dunford's experience with the challenges of positioning and the necessity of clear positioning for effective marketing.
The concept of 'status quo bias' and its influence on maintaining poor positioning due to sunk costs and resistance to change.
The difficulty in recognizing the effects of positioning on the success or failure of marketing efforts.
The importance of addressing positioning before focusing on tactics to avoid ineffective marketing campaigns.
April's advice on not accepting poor positioning and the need to fix it before proceeding with marketing strategies.
The upcoming discussion on the five components of effective positioning and how to create it within a company.
Introduction of the 'Science of Marketing' course and its aim to teach the principles of consumer psychology in marketing.
The example of Loom and how their unique positioning as a replacement for meetings changed customer expectations and needs.
The common struggle marketers face with positioning and the tendency to focus on tactics rather than foundational strategies.
Transcripts
[Music]
hello and welcome to nudge to consumer
psychology podcast i'm your host phil
agnew and in today's episode we look at
why marketers in general
are so bad at positioning
all of us know bad positioning when we
see it we hear companies talk about
benefits that customers couldn't care
less about and we read ads for products
that promote features that consumers
will never use there are hundreds of
examples of poor positioning that i
could have used to highlight this but
the one that really comes to mind is
from rory sutherland's book alchemy
in the book rory asks his readers to
imagine if miso soup didn't exist
now imagine if your daughter invented a
perfect tasting miso soup all by herself
one morning
if you were to try this miso soup
created by your daughter
you'd probably spit it out and you'd
tell her to stay clear of the spice draw
positioning dramatically changes how we
perceive products and services it
provides the context we need to
understand what the product is and what
to expect without positioning products
and services that we enjoy like miso
soup could completely fail
to help us understand all of this i've
invited positioning specialist april
dunford on the show
april is a globally recognized expert in
positioning and market strategy she has
launched 16 products to market across
her 25-year career as a vp of marketing
her book obviously awesome is one of the
best-selling books on positioning and a
must read for marketers
here's april kicking off by talking
about the confusion most marketers have
about positioning today
[Music]
sure well you know
positioning it is a really misunderstood
concept and when you think about it
that's kind of surprising because it's
not new it's been around since the 80s
and you would think that we would know
what it is but my experience is if i get
a room of senior product people or
senior marketing people together and i
say define positioning i get a dozen
different answers and
i think part of the confusion confusion
comes from the fact that positioning is
made up of a bunch of component piece
parts and we can talk a bit about that
but when i talk about positioning i
generally start by talking about what
positioning is not
and people are often surprised so i'll
say yeah positioning you know what it's
not the same thing as messaging it's not
the same thing as your tagline it's not
the same thing as your vision
it's not the same thing as your why
as a company
and my personal pet peeve is brand
positioning i get that one the most
they'll say yeah yeah positioning brand
positioning and i'll be like
you know there's branding and there's
positioning and those two things are
actually really really separate i think
that people confuse positioning with
things that you do with positioning
immediately once you have it
or outputs and positioning but you kind
of got to get positioning first to do
any of those things like how do i do
branding if i don't know who the
branding is for and what value you're
trying to embody
positioning isn't branding it's not
pricing it's not what you put on your
website as april says we're quick to
think of positioning as the outcomes
from our marketing but instead
positioning is fundamental to all our
marketing work
so what actually is positioning
my definition of positioning is um it
kind of goes like this so positioning
defines how your offering
is uniquely qualified
to deliver some kind of value
that a well-defined set of customers
cares a lot about now i wish i had a
more succinct way of defining it
because that's a bit of a mouthful but
i'm trying to capture five things in
that definition this positioning will
define who is your competitive
alternative is so who do you compete
with it defines
how you're different from those
competitors in terms of your
capabilities it defines what your
differentiated value is it defines who
exactly is this value important too so
what's your ideal customer profile or
who are you targeting and then the last
thing is your market category or you
know what market is it that you intend
to win positioning defines those five
things we can't do anything in marketing
and sales until we have a crisp
definition of those five things that's
what positioning is as april says
positioning defines how your offering is
uniquely qualified to deliver value that
a defined set of customers care a lot
about
in her book april talks about how great
positioning gives customers the context
they need to understand what you offer a
company with crisp and clear positioning
will help consumers quickly understand
the context around the product with this
context customers can glean little clues
to quickly determine what it is you
offer how much you should cost how
they'd used your tool without needing
lots of information
april calls this context setting i asked
her why it's so important this idea of
context setting
came to me like you know one of the
problems of being a positioning expert
is that nobody knows what positioning is
so you're this expert in this thing that
nobody really gets
so the first thing you got to do is kind
of explain it to people and make it
resonate and often i'm dealing with uh
you know i'm working with technical
founders that don't have a background in
marketing and so if i start yelling on
about segmentation or you know even
market category stuff their eyes glaze
over and they're like i don't you stop
giving me all your marketing mumbo jumbo
just tell me what it is i i used to have
lots of different analogies for
positioning but
i have a handful that i really like but
this idea of context setting i think
sort of explains it the best
the way i i like to explain it to ceos
is i'll be like
it's like the opening scene of a movie
so so it's so let's say you know you
walk into the movie theater you walk in
off the street you sit down lights go
down
opening scene happens
and if you notice this in american
movies almost every american movie
starts with a panning shot of the city
skyline so you'll be like ooh city
skyline oh golden gate bridge we're in
san francisco or it's like oh empire
state building we're in new york and
then it'll kind of zoom down into the
neighborhood and you'll get to see cars
and buildings so you'll get an idea of
what time frame it is you know or the
car is old or is it present day or is it
the future and then you'll start seeing
some character and you usually get a bit
of a feel for the lead character usually
in the opening few minutes so like the
example i always give is apocalypse now
like it starts with this
shot of the beach and it's all nice and
there's palm trees and the music's all
tinkly
and you're like oh this looks nice maybe
this is not apocalypse right now maybe
this apocalypse like half an hour now
from now and then all of a sudden the
music starts to get a little bit more
intense you get a little bit of like hey
is that dust maybe no it's smoke and
then the helicopter goes fly by and then
boom they set the beach on fire and
you're like oh yeah
here we are
in the middle of the war it is
apocalypse right now and then it
switches the scene switches to
martin sheen in his hotel room right so
he's in the hotel room
and and and we see that it's his
memories right so he's in the hotel room
and his hotel room looks like crap and
he's drinking and he's smoking and he's
clearly in distress and he walks over to
the window and he peeks out the blinds
and you get the first line of dialogue
in the movie which is his thoughts and
he says saigon i'm still only in
saigon
every time i think i'm gonna wake up
back in the jungle
so here we are we're two and a half
minutes into this movie and we know a
lot like we don't we know we we're we're
in the middle of the vietnam war we're
very specifically we're in saigon our
lead character has been there before and
he's got full-on ptsd and he's in
distress and we know how to feel about
this movie like this movie is not going
to be a laugh riot
you know and now we can settle in and
pay attention to the details of the
story because we can orient ourselves
and we can interpret everything else
that happens without having to say where
are we what's going on who's this
whatever
positioning does the same kind of thing
like it helps gets customers pointed in
the right direction and sort of oriented
so they can figure out what's
differentiating about you
this context setting is so vital because
without it all of your messaging pricing
features and branding will be
misinterpreted april gives a great
example of this misinterpretation in her
book she talks about joshua bell a world
famous american violinist joshua
regularly sells out concert halls where
tickets cost more than 300
a night his shows can easily generate
half a million dollars in revenue just
in an evening but researchers wanted to
see what would happen if you placed
joshua in a different context out of the
concert hall
for the test researchers asked joshua to
play the violin outside a busy subway
station in washington dc during the
morning commute
would joshua's brilliance stand out
or would this complete change in context
mean he went unnoticed
joshua bell performed for 45 minutes in
that time
1070 commuters passed by and of those
only 27 gave him money and only seven
paused to listen his total earnings for
this concert weren't half a million
though they were just 32
context matters
here's april giving an example of how
context can help or hinder your
marketing
so if i go in and i say hey i got this
product and it's email
and that's all i tell you like the
minute i say email you're like oh you
just made a whole bunch of assumptions
you're like who do i compete with gmail
what do i cost you're free
what features have you got you got a you
got a calendar you got an inbox you got
a spam filter right
but if i came in and said hey
i got this thing and it's chat
99
feature overlap like basically the same
product totally different set of
assumptions totally different context oh
chat oh well your chat that's different
right i don't have
spam filter i don't have a calendar
i
you know maybe it's free maybe it's not
completely different competitors
that shift in context it just shifts the
starting point
this is how positioning works if i come
in and i do a good job
of setting this context
then i just save marketing and sales a
lot of work like i don't have to tell
you who my competitor is it's assumed i
don't have to list every single feature
half that stuff is table stakes i could
probably take a guess at the pricing and
a whole bunch of stuff right so
everything's easy i i kind of get it
yeah now just tell me the special stuff
about you because i get what you are now
i just need to know the differentiating
stuff but
unfortunately it works the same if we
mess it up so if we do a bad job and we
position the product in a context where
it sets off a set of assumptions about
my product that aren't true
now i got marketing and sales having to
do an awful lot of work
saying
undoing the damage your positioning is
already done
like so you know i use that example
specifically because once i work with
this company and they describe
themselves as email for lawyers and so
everybody just assumed they compete with
gmail and everybody just assumed they're
free and everybody just assumed they had
a calendar and they didn't have any of
that stuff
and what they really were
what was really special about them was
they had this kind of secret sauce
feature that was that would that allowed
the lawyers to collaborate with their
clients and so it was really about
collaboration so if they reposition
themselves as team collaboration
well although all the assumptions are
different it's like
don't you don't compete with gmail and
yeah we're gonna pay money for that
because we pay money for slack and you
probably compete with slack and your
team collaboration for lawyers so i
expect you to have some fancy
collaboration stuff oh gee that's
exactly what you got
so
this is what this positioning needs to
do it needs to kind of just orient you
in the right direction so that you're
not spending the entire sales call or
marketing tactic or whatever saying no
no we're not that no no no not no stop
thinking that no word
not that either
before you actually get to the good
stuff it's like when you're halfway
there already and now you can just focus
on the stuff that makes you different
and better
[Music]
just last week i announced the launch of
the science of marketing course and i
couldn't be happier with the response
heaps of you have got in touch to join
the waiting list and get access so thank
you i can't wait to hear what you think
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but the waiting list is getting quite
long so don't hesitate to sign up today
click the link in the show notes or head
to
scienceofmarketing.teachable.com to sign
up
[Music]
when it comes to setting context with
positioning one company i admire is loom
loom is a video recording service that
lets you record videos of yourself and
of your screen to quickly share with
colleagues now conventional marketing
wisdom would say that loom is a video
recording tool
so you might expect them to highlight
all the things that a good video
recording tool needs
things like video quality the amount of
storage or the audio options you'd
expect them to compete with quicktime
and you might think they should be
available without an internet connection
for example
but no
loom positioned themselves very
differently instead they position
themselves as a replacement for a
30-minute meeting that's their
competitor no competitor isn't quick
time
this subtle change in positioning
completely changes the expectations
suddenly buyers don't care about video
quality they just care about how easy it
is to share their videos
buyers don't need heaps of storage they
just need a comments feature to get
instant feedback on their presentation
and instead of needing different audio
options they just want a url that they
can instantly get after their video is
created so they can quickly send it and
share it with a colleague
loom now has over 1.2 million daily
active users in just two and a half
years since launching growth that
wouldn't have been possible without this
context setting
but loom
is a unique example unfortunately most
marketers really struggle with
positioning now this baffles me because
most marketers have spent years studying
positioning either on the job or at
university
so i asked april why do so many
marketers struggle
well you know i think we struggle with
positioning because we we tend to be
really really focused on tactics
and everybody wants us focused on
tactics you know like like people will
come up to you and say like give us the
facebook ads man why aren't we running
the facebook ads
you know and if you just surf around on
the internet all the articles and
everything else everybody's talking
about tactics and
how do we optimize tactics
uh and sometimes that's because the
marketing team
maybe doesn't have a lot of impact on
the inputs or they think they don't they
think this stuff is sort of a given
they're like well we're you know we just
you know my my boss or the ceo or the
founder came and said look this is this
is the target market this is the ideal
customer profile just make me some
marketing campaigns to go after that
and so we don't necessarily get this
idea that you know what if we've got
that wrong
all our tactics are going to suck
but we often don't feel like we have
control over that we're a bit like
people just want me to hack some growth
here man
and i don't get to decide what the
product is and who we're going after
necessarily um so i think that a lot of
times we get or at least the impression
i get from marketers is they're a bit
like you know this isn't my job like i
don't i don't get to decide that stuff
but
here's the reality i came to when i was
a vp marketing the reality i came to was
even if my ceo doesn't think that's my
job to decide who the target market is
and you know what market is it we intend
to win
if i don't get that right
then it means the inputs to all my stuff
are weak and the outputs are going to be
weak like in in programming we call this
garbage in garbage out if it's crap
going in it's just crap coming out the
other side so what what became clear to
me early in my career as a or at least
after my first couple senior jobs was
people might not think it's my job but i
can't do my job without this stuff being
clear
so i'm going to have to drive an effort
if i think positioning is weak i'm going
to have to drive an effort to fix it and
i'm going to have to do that by working
with the ceo working with the head of
sales working with the head of product
it's a team sport and so i don't
necessarily get to own making the
decisions but somebody's got to own
fixing this stuff because if it doesn't
get fixed
who who gets to blame me because my
tactics are failing
in her book april refers to this as the
status quo bias we all know this bias
it's the idea that we don't want to
change something because it has always
been that way perhaps your company has
always targeted a certain customer or
always talked about a certain feature
all that work creates sunk costs that
make it tough to challenge and change
another problem is that sometimes the
effects of bad or good positioning
aren't even obvious to us
on a day-to-day level it can be really
tough to determine if your work is
failing or succeeding due to positioning
here's april explaining an example of
why this is from earlier in her career
this is the way i thought about this
early in my career
after so i had this job and i was right
in marketing and and i was a hot shot
and everything i touched turned gold it
was awesome and part of it was we had
this
amazing crisp fancy positioning it was
so good
and and when your positioning is really
tight like that and you're the right
product at the right time everything you
touch feels like magic like stuff that
shouldn't work is working it's amazing
right and then i and then we got
acquired and i had to stick around for a
bit whatever then i pop out and i go to
the next one right so i'm still pretty
convinced i'm pretty hot stuff so i get
to the next job
and
you know the the ceos give me the pitch
about here's here's what we are and
here's who we compete with and here's
how we're different and this is the
value and whatever and i'm looking at it
going poof
that doesn't sound awesome but you know
what that's not my job to figure that
out my job is you give me whatever you
got i'm gonna apply my marketing super
genius to it and i'm gonna weave gold
out of that straw that's that's how i
saw my job
and what happened was you know next
thing you know three months later i'm up
nights and weekends i'm grinding out
stuff that should be working that isn't
working i'm killing myself my team's
killing themselves
you know and all we're doing
is polishing the poo that's all we're
doing it's like we got we got poo coming
in and we got slightly fancier poo
coming out the other end of this process
and that's it
and so
after months of doing this finally i'm
like you know what we can't like there
is no marketing genius
that can turn the lousy positioning into
something good
like
we got to have good stuff in order to
and it doesn't matter how great we are
at tactics it doesn't matter how smart
we are it doesn't matter how many years
experience we got or whatever if the
inputs are bad the outputs are bad and
so from that point forward i was like i
cannot continue to accept
poopy positioning like if the ceo comes
and says here's the thing april and i
look at it and say
nope not today
we're gonna have to fix this otherwise
i'm not gonna be able to do my stuff
you're not gonna be happy i'm not gonna
be happy nobody's gonna be happy so we
gotta fix this first before we go
downstream and fix the rest of it the
point here is that good positioning is
the bedrock behind good marketing with
it all of your marketing is elevated but
without it
all of your marketing will struggle
yet many marketers don't focus on
positioning rather than fix the root
problem we try different tactics we test
out different messaging we change the
advertising channel all to no avail as
april says the best marketers won't even
start working on tactics until they know
the positioning is right
so how can you create effective
positioning at your company well that is
a discussion for the next episode of
nudge so join us in two weeks for that
[Music]
thank you so much for listening today
april and i as i said will be back in
two weeks to tackle the five components
of effective positioning we'll talk
through april's work and give you the
tools you need to create positioning
that really resonates in the meantime
you can go and pick up a copy of april's
book obviously awesome by clicking the
link in the show notes you can also make
sure that you don't miss the next
episode by hitting subscribe on your
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that's all from me today if you have any
questions about today's show please do
get in touch with me you can reach me on
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there so please do get in touch and
remember to tune in next fortnight to
april's brilliant framework to create
great positioning at your company thanks
for listening
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