The Narcissism Doctor: "1 In 6 People Are Narcissists!" How To Spot Them & Can They Change?

Summary

In this insightful discussion, Dr. Romany Jaasa, a renowned clinical psychologist and expert on narcissism, dives deep into the complexities of narcissistic personalities. Exploring the spectrum of narcissism, from its benign manifestations in social media influencers to its dangerous forms in cult leaders, Dr. Jaasa illuminates the traits that define this condition, such as lack of empathy, entitlement, and manipulative behaviors. She emphasizes the significant impact of narcissism on relationships, highlighting patterns of gaslighting, manipulation, and the struggle for victims to recognize and escape these toxic dynamics. Additionally, Dr. Jaasa discusses the prevalence of narcissism in leadership and its societal implications, stressing the importance of awareness and self-protection strategies for those affected.

Takeaways

• 😀 Narcissism exists on a spectrum, from mild, superficial behavior to severe, like cult leadership, characterized by low empathy and manipulative tendencies.
• 📚 Dr. Romani, a licensed clinical psychologist, emphasizes the importance of recognizing narcissism early to prevent its negative impact on personal development and relationships.
• ❤️ Narcissistic relationships often start strong with charm and charisma but eventually lead to manipulation, gaslighting, and psychological harm.
• 🏢 In the workplace, narcissism manifests through a lack of appreciation, unpredictability, and a psychologically unsafe environment.
• 🌍 When dealing with narcissistic leaders, it may be strategically beneficial to have a leader who understands narcissism, though not necessarily to have a narcissist in charge.
• 🤔 Identifying personal narcissism is challenging due to self-perception biases; self-aware narcissists are rare.
• 🛠️ Recovery from narcissistic abuse involves understanding its dynamics, practicing radical acceptance, and fostering healthy social connections.
• 🚫 Narcissistic Kryptonite includes disengagement from their manipulations and maintaining authenticity in the face of their tactics.
• 🎭 The allure of narcissists in leadership and fame is driven by their confidence and charisma, making them attractive despite their harmful traits.
• 👥 Everyone can exhibit narcissistic traits occasionally, but awareness and adjustment of these behaviors can lead to personal improvement and better relationships.

Q & A

What is the spectrum of narcissism as described by Dr. Romany Jaasa?

Narcissism is described as existing on a spectrum, with the lowest end being likened to 'Instagram saviors' and the severe end comparable to a cult leader. It encompasses a range of behaviors from low empathy and dominance to manipulation and quick anger.

How does narcissism impact relationships according to Dr. Romany Jaasa?

Narcissistic relationships often start strong, with charm and charisma, but eventually devolve into dismissiveness, manipulation, and gaslighting. The partner may be publicly praised while being psychologically destroyed in private.

How can you identify if your boss is a narcissist?

Signs your boss might be a narcissist include feeling undervalued, experiencing an unpredictable workplace, feeling the environment is psychologically unsafe, and noticing that the boss takes credit for others' work or is dismissive of others' contributions.

Can narcissism be cured according to Dr. Romany Jaasa?

Dr. Jaasa believes it's challenging to cure narcissism because it involves changing a person's personality. While narcissists can make minor changes, these are often insufficient for the people affected by their behavior.

What are some examples of the cost of narcissism on someone's life as observed by Dr. Romany Jaasa?

The cost includes individuals doubting their self-worth, giving up on their education or career paths, and entering harmful relationships that mirror the neglect they faced from narcissistic individuals.

How prevalent is narcissism according to Dr. Romany Jaasa?

Dr. Jaasa estimates that about one in six people may exhibit noticeable narcissistic personality traits, with higher prevalence in major metropolitan areas or certain industries.

Is narcissism gender-specific?

Narcissism is not gender-specific. Both men and women can exhibit narcissistic traits, although certain types of narcissism, like grandiose narcissism, are more common in men.

How does social media influence narcissism?

Social media acts as an amplifier for narcissistic behavior by providing a platform for validation and admiration. However, it does not necessarily create narcissism; rather, it can exacerbate existing narcissistic tendencies.

What are the four types of narcissism mentioned by Dr. Romany Jaasa?

The four types include grandiose, vulnerable, malignant, and communal narcissism, each with distinct traits ranging from overt arrogance and entitlement to victimhood and manipulativeness.

How can one protect themselves if they cannot exit a relationship with a narcissist?

Dr. Jaasa suggests practicing radical acceptance of the narcissist's unchangeable nature, setting realistic expectations, and finding social support from empathetic and respectful individuals.

Outlines

00:00

🔍 Understanding Narcissism Spectrum

This section introduces Dr. Romany Jaasa, a renowned expert on narcissism, and explains that narcissism exists on a spectrum, from mild instances seen in social media personalities to severe cases like cult leaders. It emphasizes the lack of empathy, dominance, and anger issues as key characteristics of severe narcissism. The discussion extends to the impact of narcissism on relationships, highlighting the initial charm and eventual manipulation, gaslighting, and psychological harm inflicted by narcissists. It also touches on narcissism in professional settings, underscoring the emotional drain and unpredictability employees might feel under a narcissistic boss.

05:00

🎓 Narcissism's Academic Perspective

In this segment, Dr. Jaasa elaborates on her academic background in Clinical and Health Psychology, leading to her interest in the intersection of personality, mental health, and physical health. She delves into the complexity of studying personality, particularly narcissism, due to its nuanced and often intangible nature. The discussion further explores the day-to-day reality of helping victims of narcissistic abuse, underscoring the gratification and challenges involved in therapeutic practices aimed at healing and empowerment.

10:02

🔄 The Cycle of Narcissistic Abuse

This paragraph discusses the repetitive cycle of abuse and manipulation in narcissistic relationships. Dr. Jaasa talks about the various ways narcissists harm their victims, from undermining their self-belief to trapping them in unhealthy patterns of dependency. She emphasizes the deep psychological impact and the difficulty victims have in breaking free, often due to a distorted sense of loyalty or love. The conversation shifts to the misconceptions surrounding narcissism, particularly its association with certain behaviors and the difficulty in recognizing it within oneself or close relationships.

15:03

🧠 Narcissism's Psychological Underpinnings

Dr. Jaasa unpacks the complex psychological framework of narcissism, differentiating between grandiose and vulnerable narcissism, and their manifestations in behavior. She explains the difficulty in curing narcissism due to its deep-rooted nature in personality and the challenges in bringing about significant change in narcissists' behaviors. The narrative then shifts to societal perceptions of narcissism, particularly gender biases and misunderstandings that obscure the reality of narcissistic tendencies across different individuals.

20:03

🌍 Narcissism in the Larger Context

This segment explores the broader implications of narcissism, from personal relationships to global leadership. Dr. Jaasa addresses the pervasive impact of narcissism, advocating for a more nuanced understanding and strategic responses to narcissistic behaviors in various domains. The discussion also highlights the alarming prevalence of narcissism and its insidious influence on society, emphasizing the need for awareness and proactive measures to mitigate its effects.

25:05

🤔 Reflecting on Personal Experiences with Narcissism

In this concluding section, Dr. Jaasa reflects on her personal encounters with narcissism, both professionally and personally. She shares insights from her journey of understanding and combating narcissism, underscoring the importance of resilience, knowledge, and self-care in dealing with narcissistic individuals. The narrative closes with a call to action for individuals and society to recognize, address, and heal from the scars of narcissistic abuse, fostering a healthier, more empathetic world.

Keywords

💡Narcissism

Narcissism refers to a spectrum of personality traits characterized by a grandiose sense of self-importance, a need for excessive admiration, and a lack of empathy for others. In the video, Dr. Romani describes narcissism as ranging from mild forms, like excessive social media usage for validation, to severe forms, such as manipulative and exploitative behavior akin to cult leaders. This concept is central to understanding the impact of narcissistic individuals on personal relationships, workplaces, and even global leadership.

💡Gaslighting

Gaslighting is a form of psychological manipulation where the perpetrator seeks to make the victim doubt their own reality, memory, or perceptions. Dr. Romani emphasizes its prevalence in narcissistic relationships, where the narcissist denies the victim's experience or memories to assert control and superiority. This tactic contributes to the victim's confusion and self-doubt, making it a critical concept in understanding the dynamics of abusive relationships.

💡Empathy

Empathy, as discussed in the video, is the capacity to understand and share the feelings of another person, which narcissistic individuals typically lack. Dr. Romani highlights how narcissists' inability to empathize with others fuels their manipulative and harmful behaviors. Understanding empathy—or the lack thereof—is crucial for recognizing the emotional disconnect in relationships with narcissists.

💡Trauma Bonding

Trauma bonding refers to the strong emotional attachment that develops between a victim and their abuser, often as a result of cyclical abuse, where periods of maltreatment are interspersed with moments of kindness or affection. In the context of the video, Dr. Romani explains how victims of narcissistic abuse become psychologically attached to their abusers, complicating the process of leaving the abusive relationship.

💡Projection

Projection is a defense mechanism where individuals attribute their own unwanted feelings, thoughts, or traits onto another person. The video describes narcissists using projection to offload their own insecurities or negative traits onto their victims, further confusing and blaming them for issues in the relationship. This concept helps to understand how narcissists deflect responsibility for their actions.

💡Validation

Validation is the acknowledgment and acceptance of another person's feelings, thoughts, or experiences. Dr. Romani notes that narcissists have an excessive need for validation from others to bolster their fragile self-esteem. This need drives much of their attention-seeking behavior and manipulation, making validation a key concept in understanding narcissistic motivations.

💡Entitlement

Entitlement in the context of narcissism refers to an unjustified expectation of special treatment and compliance from others. The video discusses how narcissistic individuals believe they are inherently deserving of privileges or resources without regard for others. This entitlement fuels their exploitative interactions and disregard for boundaries.

💡Manipulation

Manipulation is a behavior that narcissists frequently exhibit, involving the use of influence or deceit to control or exploit others for personal gain. In the video, manipulation is presented as a hallmark of narcissistic behavior, through tactics like gaslighting and projection, aimed at maintaining power and control in relationships.

💡Radical Acceptance

Radical acceptance is the practice of fully accepting reality as it is, without attempting to change it. Dr. Romani introduces this concept as crucial for victims of narcissistic abuse, emphasizing the importance of accepting that the narcissist will not change. This acceptance is foundational for coping strategies and personal healing from the impact of the narcissistic relationship.

💡Empathic Individuals

Empathic individuals, as described in the video, possess the ability to deeply understand and share the feelings of others. Dr. Romani notes that these individuals are often targeted by narcissists due to their high capacity for empathy, making them susceptible to exploitation and abuse. Understanding the role of empathic individuals in narcissistic relationships is key to recognizing the imbalance of emotional labor and care.

Highlights

Dr. Romani Jaasa, a licensed clinical psychologist, identifies narcissism on a spectrum from Instagram saviors to cult leaders.

Narcissistic relationships start strong with charm and charisma but evolve into dismissiveness, manipulation, and gaslighting.

Workplace narcissism can manifest as a lack of feeling valued, unpredictable environments, and psychological unsafety.

Narcissism in world leaders is discussed, questioning whether leaders should also be narcissists to effectively counter adversaries.

Self-aware narcissists exist and may see their narcissism as a superpower, yet are unlikely to change fundamentally.

Narcissistic relationships are marked by rumination, regret, and euphoric recall, making it challenging for victims to leave.

Gaslighting, a form of emotional abuse, is a common tactic used by narcissists to destabilize and control their victims.

Narcissistic bosses create toxic work environments, making documentation and seeking healthy social connections critical for employees.

Despite the challenges, recovery and healing from narcissistic abuse are possible with awareness, education, and support.

Narcissists' craving for admiration and validation makes them prone to performative love and potentially manipulative in relationships.

Projection is a common defense mechanism used by narcissists to deflect their insecurities onto others.

Authenticity can act as a form of 'Kryptonite' to narcissists, as they are threatened by genuine self-expression.

A significant percentage of famous individuals and world leaders may display narcissistic traits due to the nature of fame and power.

The importance of radical acceptance and setting realistic expectations in managing relationships with narcissists.

The conversation emphasizes the critical need for education on narcissism within diplomacy and leadership to prevent harm.

Transcripts

we believe one in six people are

narcissistic and exposure can become a

life or death situation but the key step

to identify narcissism is Dr Romney

jaasa licensed clinical psychologist the

world's leading expert on narcissism all

narcissism is on a spectrum at the

lowest ends it's Instagram saviors but

the severe end of the spectrum you're

talking about a cult leader they have

low empathy they will dominate people

they have to get the last word they get

angry very quickly and that's just the

top of the

iceberg what about the impacts of

narcissism on relationships narcissistic

people they can go out in the world and

they're able to be charming and

charismatic and narcissistic

relationships start strong they want to

get you quick and then it becomes

dismissiveness manipulation gaslighting

the world thinks this person's fantastic

a lot of people say aren't you lucky

that you're married to that guy and

behind closed doors they psychologically

destroy you narcissism in work how do I

know if my boss is a narcissist you're

going to feel it in the sense of you

don't feel seen you don't feel valued

you feel like the workplace is

unpredictable you might even feel that

it's psychologically unsafe what about

world leaders if our adversary in

another country is a narcissist would we

rather our leader be a narcissist as

well that's a fantastic question and I

think so the big question how do you

know if you are a narcissist and can you

cure narcissism so here's where we get

into some interesting Muddy

Waters it's absolutely crazy to me that

so many of you have decided to watch our

show um and so many of you have decided

to subscribe to our show we now have

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[Music]

episode Dr Romany mhm you've committed

so much of your life and your energy to

the subject of

narcissism why does it matter oh it

matters so much because exposure to

people who have narcissistic

personalities

shapes how people's identity develops

shapes how their personality develops or

if the first time you encounter a

narcissistic person is in adulthood it

can actually sort of hijack that sense

of identity it can really steal a person

away from themselves and we I think it's

so important because we haven't given

ourselves permission I think as a

culture as a field of mental health to

identify this as a problem and allow

people to have responses in a way it's

almost viewed as sort of not being very

nice to say the narcissistic people are

not very nice it's a strange Paradox in

the world of mental health that's why I

do it because nothing more than me

wanting to return people back to their

authentic s you must have seen the cost

of narcissism can you give me some

examples of the cost that a narcissist

has had on someone's life that you've

seen oh where do I begin I'll tell you

cost is a person person who so doesn't

believe in themselves that they may give

up on their path of education and never

pursue an interest so we never got to

see the work product that that would

have created not to mention that person

actually getting to unfurl their wings

and fully be who they wanted to be as a

creative or as a professional it's the

person who knew what they wanted to be

that they had a very strong identity as

pick something and they ended up

choosing something else because they

knew the only way they could be loved

was to be what that parent demanded of

them and it was so clear to them they

wouldn't be loved unless they fully gave

in to what that parent expected of them

it's the person who was an absolutely

glorious human being lovely empathic and

warm but feel so damaged after years of

being told you're not enough you're

selfish you're greedy you're foolish

that they get into relationship after

relationship that duplic LIC Ates that

theme and don't get the real

collaborative compassionate love story

that they deserve because they don't

think they deserve it and that's just

the top of the iceberg and your academic

background your the experience that

you're drawing from what is that

experience so my my experience is in in

my academic background is I have a PhD

in Clinical Psychology and my minor is

in something called Health psychology

and so I got really interested in how

various elements of mental health and

mental illness showed up in people who

had co-occurring medical conditions so

it's a very almost like Strange point to

enter but what we do know is people

personality affects how we take care of

our health how we might engage in

behaviors that might put our health at

risk for example narcissism and

addiction have a really high overlap so

here's a case of now a personality Style

putting a person at health risk due to

using substances to regulate and then

all the things that would come of that

but it's tough to measure personality

Stephen it's really hard to meure

measure it's not one of those things

it's not like a blood test it's not even

like measuring depression frankly

depression is eminently measurable yeah

there's different variants and there's

different severity but we're very clear

diagnostically and phenomenologically

what makes depression what qualifies

personality is like the wild west and so

from a research perspective it's

something that people would often shy

away from because we couldn't get the

constructs right but I said I welcome

the challenge because I truly in my

heart believe

if we could understand and study

personality more we'd actually be

understanding all this unmeasurable

noise in the mental health research

because I thought that's probably where

it was and I think more and more of the

research is supporting that and you

spend time even today dealing with

patients who are the victim of a

narcissistic relationship or the victim

of a narcissist every week every week I

mean it's it's probably one of the if

not the most gratifying part of my my

week I'm a big believer that if you're a

mental health practitioner you practice

mental health so that's a privilege to

be able to be in that room and to work

with clients but it would be so easy

when you're dealing at a macro level

large populations going on YouTube

writing books to get distanced from what

is happening to individual people's

lives one of the tricky bits with

research is we study populations we

study samples right we study hundreds of

people what happens in the room is

something very different and you start

to recognize a how badly these

relationships harm people their schemas

of the world their schemas of themselves

and B how much potential for

intervention there is with these clients

through very very simple approaches

around education about narcissism

validation of their experience breaking

through self-blame and teaching them to

trust themselves so how many patients do

you think you've seen that have been

victims of narcissists I mean hundreds

hundreds really and I even use the word

Survivor I hate to call them victims

because I don't even think they're that

passive I mean I think that they just

weren't no one ever taught anyone this

right I give you the example when people

are in a relationship with somebody

who's living with addiction it's very

clear what they're dealing with right

you have a person they're using a

substance that's altering them that's

altering their behavior that's taking

them away from who they are person

people in relationships with addicts

will say I'm in two relationships I'm in

a relationship with a sober person and

I'm in a relationship with somebody

who's using or intoxicated or denying or

defending their use right two people and

it breaks the people in those

relationships and we're willing to call

it that the experience people have in

narcissistic relationships in a way is

no different with the added bit though

that at least with addiction people can

say I see what the behavior is I see

what the issue is addiction's a disease

and we know it's treatable narcissism

not so much and on top of that the

narcissistic person has this very

well-developed very successful

behavioral repertoire they can go out in

the world and they're able to be

charming and charismatic and confident

and smart and the center of attention

and running companies and behind closed

doors they psychologically eviscerate

the people they're with spouses Partners

family members close friends maybe

people who are below them in an

organization people where they can kind

of get away with it so the people

they're harming the world thinks this

person's fantastic at least a person

who's in a relationship with an addict

people say okay get it they're using

this is hard but for the folks in

narcissistic relationships a lot of

people say aren't you lucky that you're

married to that guy and the person's

like oh my gosh are these people out

there mind like so what do they do they

blame

themselves

okay what is

narcissism because I've heard the word

used so often but I couldn't tell you

the definition of it and I feel like I'd

butcher the definition of what it is MH

so I'm almost curious to ask you yeah

what just before I almost contaminate

you with the with what my definition is

what's your working definition what's

your working model of what narcissism is

um delusions of grandeur someone that

thinks they're like super important and

that they are better than everybody else

arrogance um and they're cruel okay all

right so I I would give you probably

like a C+ B minus if you're student in

my class I mean I I I cut students a lot

of slack back in day so I'll give you C+

B minus because you're in the

neighborhood right the grandiosity the

arrogance the the meanness but that to

me is even more sort of a manifestation

of the traits like the grandiosity the

arrogance they have variable empathy and

typically have low empathy they're

deeply entitled they truly think they're

more special than everyone else and that

the rules should apply to them very

differently they have a excessive need

for admiration and validation they're

very superficial they don't really have

the capacity for deep sustained Intimate

Relationships they're very much

referential to the world out there out

outside of them to set goals they don't

have an good internal sense of like what

matters to me what what do I want to do

they just want to do what they do again

to get that admiration and validation

there's a shallowness a real emotional

shallowness to narcissism those are the

patterns and traits we sort of see

they're very very self-centered very

preoccupied with themselves the good

parts of themselves the bad parts of

themselves it's very rare for them to

sort of lift their heads up and

genuinely notice the experience of

another person that's what narcissism is

how does it show up it shows up as

devaluation dismissiveness manipulation

gaslighting they get angry very quickly

especially when they're frustrated or

disappointed and that can show up as

overt Rage or overt anger yelling

screaming or even violence that can show

up as passive aggression with holding

and withdrawing they are they can be

they're prone to betrayal they lie they

cheat they make promises about the

future they never keep but they do that

to keep people around so they won't

leave them so it's it's part of a larger

sort of a manipulation they will

dominate people they have to get the

last word they will shift blame onto

other people they will rarely take

responsibility for their misdeeds even

when they're clearly caught in them and

if they do they'll still blame the other

person they're very neglectful and

careless and relationships that is

narcissism how can you tell the

difference between someone having a bad

day an [ __ ] and a narcissist because

some of those things there I thought on

a bad day I might do that yeah you know

um the whole collection together no but

on a bad day when I haven't slept I go

you know what I might blame someone or

whatever else what's the distinction

when a person has a bad day and we all

have bad days and on those bad days we

might look if all the if the only tape

someone had of us was of that day right

but the here's the piece when people are

not narcissistic and they have bad days

they will take accountability they will

make amends and they will change their

behavior and say I'm not doing this

again this is this is not okay why

wasn't it okay because it was none of

those people's fault you didn't get

enough sleep and whether that means we

reach deeper to be as kind as we can to

the people in some cases especially if

it's people we know or we see you may

not know the random person at the gym

but if we someone we know or work with

we step we step out of ourselves to say

the way I conducted myself yesterday

wasn't okay and I'm really sorry about

that um and so that that they're having

that experience of you taking

accountability that's where I know we're

not dealing with a narcissistic person

we're dealing with a bad day and a bad

day is just that a day it's not every

day with a narcissistic person many days

I'm not going to say all but many days

are characterized by these machinations

these manipulations and these

invalidations the person in a

relationship with a narcissistic person

feel like they're constantly on their

back foot that they can't be themselves

they can't express a need they can't

express a want they can't even express a

feeling for fear of it being shut down

so there's your so there's your not

narcissistic person what about an

[ __ ] okay I do think assholery and

narcissism are pretty they we use the

terms

interchangeably I think though that

here's here's my [ __ ] belief since

this is something it's I think the

construct validation on [ __ ] is

probably still needing to be done I

think [ __ ] tend to be pretty

consistently [ __ ] so whereas

narcissistic people can really they have

a much wider behavioral repertoire to be

absolutely Charming this is a person who

can be absolutely Charming on the golf

course with the CEO of their company

like Charming nice warm remember during

the ages of their kids and asking about

the wife and remembering that their

grandmother is sick and all this stuff

and get home forget it was his

anniversary scream at their partner why

is the house like look like this why do

I have to put up with this make those

damn kids shut up but they were Mr I

remember that your little girl's

birthday is February 6th when they were

on the golf course that is not assholery

that's narcissism can you cure

narcissism in your opinion no I don't

because I think that would imply

changing a personality which I don't

think we can

do is there any evidence have you ever

seen in your 20 years of working with

narcissists and their

survivors any sign of a narcissist

becoming a not- narcissist or non-

narcissist I've not seen them become a

not- narcissist I've be seen them make

micro changes because I measure and

monitor and make my notes in therapy so

I'll see interesting they're no longer

trying to mess with coming in 10 minutes

later and asking me to keep them for the

whole hour they are honoring the

therapeutic frame they're paying the

bill when they decide not to show up at

the last minute I see Tiny tweaks I'll

see people who'll come in and

say I screamed at my girlfriend again

last night and that wasn't cool so I was

like oh who that's Insight like I'll run

with it but here's the rub okay these

micro changes and they are micro changes

but they are changes and they're in the

right

direction that much water under under

the bridge for the family members and

partners and other people that have been

harmed they're saying you want me to

stay in this relationship because this

dude remember to say thank you once this

week I think not to me the thank you is

progress to the people in their lives

who've been harmed that one thank you is

not going to be

enough when I was looking at the subject

of narcissism and I was looking at what

people are searching around the subject

matter I could see no searches online

for is my my wife a narcissist but I saw

lots of searches for is my husband a

narcissist really yes so I

wondered is narcissism a gender specific

thing and in What proportion do you

typically see men and women being

narcissists yeah no it's not gender

specific I'm so shocked at that because

I've worked with so many men who have

narcissistic wives or female partners

and I've worked with many I've worked

with many lesbian couples I've I mean

I've worked with cases where clearly it

was a woman female identified person who

is narcissistic it is definitely not

limited to men so here's what we know

grandiose narcissism much more common in

men malignant narcissism much more

common in men but there's a form of

narcissism called vulnerable

narcissism vulnerable narcissism isn't

so much of the showy charismatic

Charming look at me arrogant salesy

attention seeking narcissist the

vulnerable narcissist is more socially

anxious victimized Sullen resentful

grieved and often we sort of see a

failure to launch right there sort of a

I'm angry at the world how come I never

got my turn you know makes how come she

got that and you know I I was better

than him I should have gotten that

there's like victim yeah victimhood okay

that's called vulnerable narcissism

right when we look at vulnerable narciss

nism gender

balanced okay so these other types of

narcissism you named four types there

grandiose narcissism right so that's our

traditional sort of garden variety

narcissism the showy charismatic

pretentious preing Charming attention

seeking actually quite often quite

successful narcissistic person unlike

the vulnerable narcissists who are

Failure to Launch the grandiose

narcissistic people often have big big

dreams and they'll execute not always

not always and they'll often burn

Bridges because they are in fact

narcissistic so they'll anger people or

do Shady deals or cut people out and all

that stuff but the grandio narcissistic

folks are often the Larger than Life

folks now if they are angry at you if

they feel let down by you they will let

you know they can be very vindictive

they are not going to be very honest in

a relationship they're probably going to

betray you they're going to be mean to

their Partners we can count on that too

but to the World At Large Larger than

Life That's the typical model now the

vulnerable narcissism is what I narc IST

is what I just shared with you that more

vulnerable victimized sorry victimized

socially anxious angry AG grieved Sullen

resentful Failure to Launch narcissist

okay some people would argue they're one

and the same that as long as a grandiose

narcissistic person is well supplied

things are going well they're getting

lots of attention they're making money

they're they're just sort of feeling

like they're they're the person they're

good then they're going to they're going

to stay in their grandiose mode however

if the thing tips

and things everything goes wrong for the

grandiose narcissist they lose the money

they lose the job they lose the partner

they lose social status the vulnerable

stuff will start showing up the

victimhood the resentment this is a

witch hon everyone's out to get me can

almost feel sort of lowgrade paranoid

you're either more one than another so

the vulnerable narcissist could

definitely have a grandiose moment if

everything turned for them but some

people are just more grandiose some

people are more vulnerable but they do

have the other underbelly that's just

that's how that looks now the malignant

narcissist which is another type I

talked about this is where we see the

most severe form and when I say most

severe most severe in terms of how it

shows up in relationships I'd say the

most problematic form of narcissism and

here's where we see a form of narcissism

that shows up as manipulativeness

exploitativeness the willingness to take

advantage of people um coerciveness I

isolation using Menace as a tool of

control very vindictive dangerous it

could be quite dangerous um this this is

I always say malignant narcissism is the

last stop on the train before you hit

psychopathy station because this is as

close to psychopathy as you're going to

get without it being psychopathy and in

fact there's a personality model called

the dark tetrad and the dark tetrad is

comprised of narcissism psychopathy

machiavellianism which is sort of like

that willingness to use other people for

your own advantage and sadism I

personally think there should be a fifth

bit which is par oia because I think

these folks can be really think

everyone's out to get them but the model

right now is those four pieces right

malignant narcissism has a lot of those

top notes the calculated callous

coldness the shallow charm the shallow

superficial charm intelligence um the

lack of empathy the in some ways getting

some pleasure out of seeing someone who

wronged them being hurt so again it

feels more dangerous and that's

malignant narcissism is that your say

serial killers I would say the serial

killers are probably more Psychopathic

and psychopathy is definitely a

different subtype it's different

psychopathy is something different than

malignant narcissism they're not the

same thing they they they they look

different even genetically and all and

they look different probably look

different in the brain Psychopathic

people have um they don't have remorse

they don't feel guilt whereas malignant

narcissistic people may they know they

did something wrong a psychopathic

person it's almost as though they don't

understand what they did wrong not

because they have a mental deficit but

because they literally have zero

capacity for empathy and the fourth type

of narcissism so I gave you vulnerable

grandiose malignant and the fourth type

is communal narcissism right grandios

malignant vulnerable yes the fourth type

is communal narcissism communal

narcissism is very interesting it's a

relatively new construct in the field it

came around 2003 was when I started

reading some of the first papers by a

guy Nam Gau I think he was writing he

was the University of munic the time and

I I loved the work I thought it was

absolutely compelling because it was

this idea that there were people out

there who were going to get their

narcissistic Supply not through the

usual look at me I'm so great I'm going

to do things so people tell me I'm great

but by doing good deeds by being

perceived as saviors by being perceived

as Grand Rescuers humanitarians so the

communal narcissist is a person who gets

their narcissistic Supply their praise

their admiration their Awe by doing

these good deeds and that's the

motivation for doing the good deeds not

the good deed in and of itself not

because you care about a refugee group

not because you care about the plight of

animals but because you want to be

viewed as a good dude and so that's the

communal narcissist now what gets

interesting like with all forms of

narcissism all narcissism is on a

spectrum it's not an either or from mild

to severe all of mental health is on a

spectrum there's no such thing as a

black and white dichotomy and mental

health it's it's it's mild to severe

mild to severe and what's interesting

with communal narcissism at the lowest

ends it's sort of like you're more like

Instagram saviors like look at me I'm

saving the world but you know like

they're cleaning up the beach in their

bikini and I'm like is this about how

attractive you are is this about really

trying to save the environment like it

really is about are we talking about

apps or are we talking about trash in

the street like what are we talking

about but they want the validation like

what a cool person you are for spending

your weekend saving elephants they're

relatively harmless they're moderately

ridiculous but they do get angry if

people don't give them a big Bravo for

how humanitarian they are you take

communal narcissism all the way to the

severe end of the spectrum you're

talking about a cult leader these are

now people who are saying I have the

answer to the universe I know everything

I know you better than you they'll bring

people into cultic systems they will

completely you know separate them from

their sense of self and their sense of

self-worth have no problem doing it it

and tell them that they're doing them a

good thing the whole time that's to me

your your severe cult leader or I think

all cult leader cult leader forget

severe a cult leader is really probably

where communal and malignant narcissism

come together the big question how many

people are narcissists this is a big

question because our problem is this

there's really no good studies about

this it's tough to measure narcissism

who's really going to cop to being

really entitled or really manipulative

you often don't get people who are going

to answer those questions in an honest

open way when we look at the prevalence

of narcissistic personality disorder

that are done in what we call large

scale epidemiologic studies we see the

rates to be somewhere between 1 and 6%

but that's the diagnosis and that's in

really structured research settings

narcissism is a person who has enough of

the narcissistic personality style to be

noticeable to be experienced by others

it's a spitball number because we've

never done the numbers so I'd say if the

spitball number is probably sit in

somewhere between 15 and 18% I think

that's a good guess about one in six

people I think if you're in a major

metropolitan area it's going to be a

little higher I think in certain

industries it's going to be higher um I

think in certain maybe even cultures it

could be higher so but if you were going

to just give me ask me for a global

prevalence I mean I think that's it's my

it's my best guess and I think a lot of

folks in the field might agree with me

again enough of it that you'd notice it

enough of it that people are being

affected by it so you've met six team

members of mine including me I have not

I've only met four of you so you're

still two men down you're okay you might

still be coming it through cuz my next

question was which one do you think it

was so far so bad for you because each

one of us has been sweeter than the next

so Stephen you're in the hot seat right

now oh gosh sugar okay interesting okay

so I mean one and six as a as a spitball

number is is scarily high that's

interesting you think it's scarily High

I mean I I think it's

about I mean listen we know how I I I

actually don't think it is I think if

you went to a small town you might hit

closer to one in eight because I think a

small town is almost based on a greater

need for sociality I think there's more

interdependence in that kind of a

situation so narcissism isn't going to

probably work as well but I I mean one

in six I think if any of us really went

home and did the soul searching listed

out the names of everyone we knew the

number is probably going to track is

that number increasing are we breeding

narcissists because of the sort of

Social and societal changes that have

occurred I'm thinking about Instagram

when you said that I was thinking

is is social media a narcissist Creator

it's I think it's a it's a narcissist

amplifier but I don't think it's a

Creator narcissism is a personality

style and like all personality Styles

it's a social emotional developmental

phenomenon that happens from infancy

into adolescence so somebody jumping

onto Instagram when they're 18 and

posted lots of selfies they're a decent

person that's not going to turn them

narcissistic it might turn them boring

but I don't know that it would

necessarily turn them narcissistic I

think it could take if somebody's got

the traits they have the tendency to

need the validation and admiration and

again a person posting selfies that

doesn't make them narcissistic because

Jack went on holiday up this mountain

and he posted loads of photos Okay so no

but but we have to if Jack's a nice

person right jack is excited to share

his trip with everyone right but he was

kind of like rubbing it in okay so it's

a that's right Jack just lost some

points there poor Jack but it's a but

but I would say this what what we' want

to know with anyone who's posted a lot

of vacation photos right and they keep

doing it how present are they when

you're actually with them if you say

like listen Jack is the loveliest person

in the world and Jack Loves sharing his

vacation trips and there's a little bit

of shot and frea in there like you know

but he's a sweetie then jacks off the

hook right I think though that what n

what social media has become is it has

taken PE Once Upon a Time and you're

probably even you're you're not so young

that you wouldn't remember this but I

remembered it as a full grown ass woman

is that I can tell you that if I go

backwards to when I first heard about

social media I was already in my 40s at

that point and um and I remember looking

at it and I was already studying

narcissism and I said oh God I I and it

was really like it was almost like

Houston we have a problem kind of thing

someone else had shown it to me and I

thought to myself this isn't going to

create more narcissist but once upon a

time for a narcissistic person to get

validation they'd actually have to have

a shave in a shower and get out of the

house you couldn't just sit home and get

validation you had to go go to work get

it in a family sphere get it in your

town bar or Pub or something like that

but it wasn't going to come home from

you just sitting on your ass at home

taking pictures of yourself cuz I don't

know if you've ever tried to take a

picture of yourself with the camera

you're either going to catch your head

or your mouth like that's how we used to

try to do it right so now there was a

tool for these people to have a

megaphone to say look how wonderful I am

so a person who was already

narcissistic this was going to harness

it and sort of it was an accelerant on a

fire that was already burning but I keep

in the house though isn't it which is

sounds like it's a safer place for it to

be them wandering around the streets

yeah well the point is what keeping oh

keeping them in at home rather than but

I still think that what it did though is

now we get into a bigger philosophical

question this many people depicting

lives that are look how much better my

life is than yours look how together I

am look how great I'm doing while that

might be something the narcissistic

people will do to offset their sense of

insecurity because that's sort of the

core wound in narcissism there are other

vulnerable people who are watching that

content who are not narcissistic but

already feel like they don't measure up

and we've created this really messy

space of people who already devalue

themselves looking at these lives far

better than theirs and wondering what's

wrong with

me roughly one in six people have a

podcast so I was just

wondering I mean that that many people

think they have something that

interesting to say right so um and like

I said everybody's trying to put their

voice out there their vacation pictures

out there their breakfast pictures out

there are not narcissistic I think in

some cases I I don't think we should

over pathologize what has become a new

way of interacting I've got it's

interesting I have children my my my

daughters are now both in their early

20s and I'll watch their facility but

they're it's not I see what they're

doing it's not narcissism it's actually

communication and they're staying in

touch with a very large net of widely

spread friends and there is a lot of

intimacy there so I think young people

whose cognition kind of also grew with

it they use it in a more sort of

seamless way listen what's it been

around now we're we're going to soon

come come 20 years around 20 years since

social media has been around right we're

rounding that horn soon we're going to

get it's going to take a minute to get

the data we're going to get our first

set of data from the kids whose lives

were captured from the day they popped

onto a delivery table all the way right

through ad adolescence that data is

going to be very telling I don't think

it's created more narcissism I think

we've always had grandiose narcissists I

think they make history they've been our

leaders they're the people we've always

looked to they've been the town mayor

whatever I think what it's all it has

done though it's taken this problem of

vulnerable narcissism and it's really

blown it up because the vulnerable

narcissistic people get super resentful

when they perceive other people as

having these awesome lives that they

don't and they get more angry and this

is sort of the Advent of the Internet

troll a lot of that is explained by

vulnerable narcissism so where does

narcissism come from then this is one of

the big questions it from what you said

there I assume it comes there might be a

genetic component that's brought out by

our childhood or so we're all born with

a temperament right I don't know if

you're an only child if you have

siblings or anything youngest of four

you're youngest of four okay so this is

harder for you do you would it' be

interesting for you to talk with them is

that and your your your parent whoever

was parents whoever around every one of

you you and your siblings had slightly

different personalities from the day you

were born and that rolled out in early

childhood so you'll see that one kid

who's just easy breezy from the day

they're born you'll some sometimes see

that kid who's just a clenched up ball

of nerves from the day they're born

you'll see that kid who just doesn't

want to chill for a minute from the day

they're born that stuff is called

temperament and what we know about

temperament is that there are certain

temperaments and those that make a child

more biologically vulnerable a little

bit more difficult to soothe they may be

more they just sort of need more right

so they're more of a demand on a

caregiver it that with that more

vulnerable temperament if that comes up

against an environment that's at all

invalidating trauma neglect other

adversities chaos domestic violence

substance use in the family um and even

emotional abuse with a child is just

being told stop sit down shut up why

can't you be like your sisters right

that com that combination can actually

set up a real risk for developing

narcissism so that's pathway one but

pathway two and this is actually coming

out of really interesting work by a guy

named Eddie bruman from the University

of Amsterdam it's fascinating work and

he is studying more sort of how do we do

what's the other pathway well the other

pathway and other folks like Masterson

and others have written about this which

is the overvalued child these are the

children who are told you're more

special than any other child not that

you're special but you are more special

than him and him and her so you

shouldn't have to wait in a line you're

more special you should get the teacher

you want you should get everything you

want those children often they don't

learn to self Soo they often aren't as

well regulated they actually kind of

believe the hype that the parent is

giving them which is not doing them any

favor favors and Bromans is suggesting

that this could sort of be a

foreshadowing of what could turn into

adult narcissism you I'm guessing you

need that temperament on board I think

if you had a sweet tempered kid that

constantly being told that they're

special actually might leave the sweet

tempered kid feeling a little bit guilty

actually but the kid with that more

vulnerable temperament they might sort

of they might buy into the hype so you

sort of have this one p pathway of

adversity you have the one pathway of

sort of these are kids who are told

you're great you can anything you want

we'll do anything you want let's go on

this vacation here's this device but

there're off also kids that are often

very emotionally undernourished they're

not they're not um their emotions are

not valued they're not reflected they're

not mirrored so these are kids who are

get get get but it's a very tenuous

existence because they're still not in

touch with their emotional World which

has to happen in child otherwise you

don't get that um that so you don't get

that atlas of your own emotions right so

those tend to be the two primary p

Pathways

now not every kid who goes through those

Pathways will be will become

narcissistic in fact the ma vast

majority will not so I think that the

this it's very complicated and what we

call it's very it's it's

multi-determined it's a very

multi-determined series of Pathways to

what leads to adult narcissism and

because of that I always say narcissism

is one of those stories we can always

tell backwards but is really difficult

to tell forwards don't show me your

17-year-old who is who is has a lot of

attitude and won't empty the dishwasher

and calls you names and don't ask me if

he's narcissistic I usually tell those

parents call me in 10 years and in 10

years you're going to see if this

tracked or he pops out of it like every

adolescent who's trying to kind of

individuate from his parents and settles

down into a decent guy you mentioned

that narcissism exists on a spectrum so

does that mean that someone can be a

little bit narcissistic I would say

somebody can have milder narcissistic

presentation so what I mean by milder

the mild narcissistic people the best

adjective I could use they're annoying

they're emotionally immature they're

superficial they're shallow they're

vapid and and they're also very

self-centered so these are people when

they're having a problem they expect the

world to stop for them take their calls

talk to them for hours but the day

finally comes that you need your friend

they're nowhere to be seeing like oh I

don't have time for this so it can feel

like a very very imbalanced relationship

and when you're with them the mild

narcissist can actually be kind of fun

right they're they're like let's go to

this new hot hip whatever blah blah blah

and they're fun and laugh and dance and

attention seeking could be fun for a

minute but there it would be very

difficult to have a long-term committed

relationship with someone like that be

difficult to raise children with someone

like that it would have been very

difficult to have been raised by someone

like that are narcissists more

successful professionally yes they're

much more successful that's the problem

and not I mean again I and I'm not going

to make this a blanket statement but I'm

going to tell you now that they are

they're more ambitious success is life

or death to them right because it's

validation it's the it's the it's the

blood that flows to their psyche so the

stakes are much higher for them the rest

of us we want to succeed but at the end

of the day we would say I've got my

family I got my friends I got enough

money in the bank I got some food in my

belly like I'm good but for them it is

it's the air in their lungs so they're

more represented in leadership they are

they make more money especially

narcissistic men make more money than

agree um agreeable men

um they're more successful at dating um

they're more successful and

unfortunately the way our economy is set

up it is set up so that the narcissistic

people win narcissism and capitalism go

together really well because it's a

competitive system that rewards the

person who does the most and we don't

look at process we look at outcome and

be when any anytime you have an outcome

heavy metric narcissistic people are

always going to win

I'm thinking about some of the greatest

companies that have been built that

changed the world you know Apple being

one of

them oftentimes when you hear about how

these people treated other

people

um it sounds like the narcissistic

characteristics that you described

earlier you know but then we often

excuse that because of what they brought

into the world the great Innovations the

great companies they built how they

helped change the world how they maybe

led us through or out of

War so

what do you say to that is it sometimes

worth their narcissism for what they

gave the world so here's here's a rub I

completely agree with what you're saying

I actually think that some of the

greatest Innovations greatest creativity

in fact many wartime presidents and

prime ministers were it had to be

narcissistic right and might have gotten

Count's people through messes might have

made the had the decisive postures that

were necessary that might have made the

real really really kinds of um difficult

corporate decisions that needed to be

make with little regard for how the

human beings were going to get hurt

treated people way pushed them to an

inhuman limit and then there was this

thing that came out of it was it worth

it I mean now we're in now we're in

philosophy honey and I'm a

psychologist but but suffice it to

say you know there's some there's always

been talk like even inventors like Tom

Alva Thomas Alva Edison wasn't a was not

a nice guy right some archival res

SE loving these light bulbs right would

someone else have done it it's a mood

point he did and

so I think the Innovations are important

I think narcissistic people are built

for Innovation they're grandiose they're

dreamers they want the agile they want

to do the big thing they want to be on

the big Tech stage and have all the

lights on them and have all the

attention while they have the Beautiful

video and the simple thing and they want

that that is their everything and what I

tell people is we're never never going

to have a world without them we have

gotten lots of cool stuff in our lives

from them just don't marry

them is it possible to be the person on

the stage to build the incredible thing

to have the insane ambition to put

little computers into our pockets and do

all of that and not be a narcissist I

fully believe there absolutely 100% I

think it's harder though I really really

do I think that the empathic CEO is a is

a unicorn it's tough that you know and

because they're they're answering to so

many Masters right they're answering to

shareholders they're answering to rank

and file they're answering to management

it's I wouldn't want that job I I'm a

very agreeable empathic person and I I I

got to tell you i' I'd rather do any job

than that one it sounds I'd love the

money but I it's it sounds terrible and

I think that the kind of shapeshifting

and chameleon like qualities that

requires it's I would say that an

empathic person would get a bit more

swallowed up in that job because if you

actually stopped to care about everyone

you were serving in that position you

would burn out real fast the not caring

I think is what actually can protect a

person in that position and that's not

to say all CEOs are narcissistic though

a lot are because it's a competition at

the end of the day it is a competition

at the end of the day and narcissistic

people are built for competition they're

built for it because they have to win at

any cost the rest of us are probably

like I'm out you know yeah a lot of

Industries are a zero some game not

business generally isn't but when I say

zero some game I mean there's you know

when um one person does well that kind

of means that someone else is not going

to do well so I'm thinking about some

Industries even one of my companies

third web we realize that it's kind of a

winner takes all industry in the same

way that like Amazon is like there's one

Amazon and they dominate the whole of

them pretty much all the market share

and with Google there's one Google and

the nearest competitor probably has 5%

of the market share so there are

elements in business where it is pretty

Winner Takes all and it's conceivable to

think the person who is most ruthless

most willing to cut ethical Corners most

willing to put profits over people is

probably going to rise to the top that's

right so you know generally espe at

least in the short term in the short

term and but the thing is then they'll

cash out yeah all their bad ethics will

catch up with them or their bad ethics

will catch up with they'll end up in

jail which we see a lot we do we see it

and I think for some people it was a was

it was a worthy gamble because they

could have potentially won at all right

or they or they truly believed they were

going to get away with it and I think

that that's when we use the word

arrogance arrogance is at it at its

deepest level is I'm going to do the bad

thing and I'm going to get away with

it what about money um does money make

you more

narcissistic here's where it gets to be

an interesting conversation and I write

about this actually more in my other

book and don't you know who I am where I

I money breeds privilege money breeds

entitle entitlement what I call the sort

of phenomenon of feet that never touch

the ground right if people have enough

money they're whizzed to airports and

cars they don't stand in the TSA line

with the unwashed masses like the rest

of us do they're taken to the best hotel

suites they are they don't think about

where their next meal is coming from

it's brought to them they don't they

don't do the all the the stuff that the

rest of us do they don't tolerate the

indignities and they don't have to

regulate the same way so when a person

has money for long enough that feet

never touching the ground creates what

they call sort of privileged

entitlement was that maybe [ __ ] but

maybe not I think it's also that bubble

wrapped way that they go through life

like they actually don't understand how

to use the self checkout at Target did

you hear the Paul piff study from the

University of yeah he's great by the way

he's wonderful which well we did so many

which study are you referring to um the

one where people are made to feel

wealthier and when they feel wealthier

they were more likely to endorse

unethical decisions such as stealing

office supplies stealing candy people

who were made to feel wealthier also

gave less to charity people who were who

were made to feel wealthier expressed

happiness through feelings that were

self focused such as through Pride um

contentment and amusement and people who

felt less wealthy were more likely to

agree with statements that were focused

on others that's right which kind of

suggests that being wealthier and

feeling wealthier makes you more of an

[ __ ] makes you more of an [ __ ] it

makes you more self-referential right so

I think that you know does that make

sense surprising you think it be the

other way around not at all not at all

because I think that again Paul's

research is great by the way he's

wonderful he actually did another

research study where he studied um he

looked he went to busy intersections in

Orange County he's a professor UC Irvin

was at the time when I had met him um

and they'd go to busy intersections stop

signs not red lights and he found that

people who drove luxury cars were far

less likely to make a full stop at the

stop sign and people compared to people

who had more sort of you know middle

level cars I mean it was fascinating so

there's and and there's there's at least

a dozen published studies that show that

narcissistic people drive more

dangerously so it's an interesting kind

of an accumulation but per the money

part I don't believe like if a person

was a full grown adult 30 35 years old

and they were an

agreeable warm self-aware person and

they made a lot of money okay I don't

think you would turn them

narcissistic I do think you might

undercut that self awareness because

they may be sort of pulled out of the

world that the rest of us live in so

there might be unrealistic expectations

for how the world like why are we

waiting in this line I'm like well

that's because what we do is wait in

this line because they've come out of it

but they're not cruel about it they're

like why are these dumb people making me

wait in line so it's not a

dismissiveness it's almost like how is

this so inefficient there's almost a

there's like a disconnect I guess so I

wouldn't say money I think what he's

showing is that money creates a

self-centeredness right as you thought

it might go the other way but I think

that we sort of double down on sort of

keeping it and we there's there's an

importance I mean money is is the

ultimate source of narcissistic Supply

because it delivers power it delivers

admiration it delivers a greater

likelihood of getting sex or getting

laid it delivers all kinds of stuff so

for a narcissistic person the quest of

for money is the the shest quick ticket

way to get this thing called

narcissistic Supply so you'll often see

them attempting to do that by any means

possible so but they but they're driven

to the money I don't think that the

money is what makes people rot and I

think the bubble wrapping at that point

makes them entitled it's a different

conversation how do you know if you are

a

narcissist like does a narcissist know

they are one is there a narcissist test

one can do I don't there's about five to

six tests out there that are designed to

detect narcissism in its various ways

all of them have flaws like I said and

it's not it's not even fully the fault

of the test because this is a very

difficult thing to measure right we're

at we're trying to measure things that

are not socially desirable right that's

really tough to measure so a lot of the

narcissism tests will measure things

like some entitlement assertiveness um

self-importance that people may not find

as offensive but the research actually

shows that narcissistic people

overestimate their empathy

and underestimate their negative effect

on other people they do not have a clear

look at themselves they really have an

almost deluded sense of who they are and

how they go through the world so when a

person says to me I think I'm

narcissistic I always say hold the

presses you need to tell me a little bit

about you because there's a lot of

people out there who think of themselves

as narcissistic because they're in

relationships with narcissistic people

who have told them over the years years

you are such a selfish person because

this unfortunate person is doing simple

things like saying hey could we go where

I want to go for dinner once or you I

want to talk about my feelings and then

their narcissistic partner saying oh my

gosh you're so selfish and they're

really sort of indoctrinated into this

idea or gaslighted into this idea that

there's something narcissistic about

them once we clear the decks of that is

there a subset of people out there who

are narcissistic and are kind of in some

awareness like this might be who I am

yes and we call them self-aware

narcissistic people they're out there

some of them view narcissism as their

superpower they say like don't take this

away for me this is why I've got the

edge this is why I close the sale this

is why I'm the man and one client was

like I'm the man like oh my gosh like a

six-year-old but okay do people men come

to you women come to you and say I am a

narcissist yes I've had that happen it's

not common I can count on one hand the

number of times it's happened and did

you agree with them and they I in about

an hour

yeah what was were they how did they

figure out they were a narcissist what

were they saying they might have read

they might have read my books or more

more likely saw YouTube video they might

have you know sort of again seen my

content someone might have said that to

them and then they looked it up on

Google and they're like that is kind of

me but they did in many ways rationalize

it saying this is why I always close the

deal this is who I am like you know what

was it don't hate the don't hate the

player hate the game they would try that

kind of stuff with me and I'd say but

your behavior is offensive like this is

not okay what you're doing what you did

you're doing on an ongoing basis to your

spouse or partner is not okay and so

they would have that awareness like

almost like from a checklist yeah like

yeah I don't care that much about

people's feelings and yeah I guess I

kind of think the rules don't apply to

me they'll have that awareness it's

pretty uncommon like I said most

narcissistic people Veer into this idea

of they overestimate their goodness and

generosity underestimate how um how

negatively they're viewed by other

people so let's talk then about the

impacts of narcissism on relationships

particular what kind of people do

narcissists attract in relationships and

what kind of people are attracted to

narcissists so it's such a good question

I'm so glad you asked it what kind of

people do they attract everyone's

attracted to narcissistic people they're

Charming they're charismatic they're

confident they're in research has shown

they're often rated as more attractive

than other people they take good care of

their bodies they know lots of

interesting things they're so concerned

about hiped that they are like they know

the cool restaurants they all of us have

been indoctrinated to think that these

are the people were supposed to be

dating right who says no to charm

Charisma and attractiveness me maybe but

just nobody else would do that so we're

all attracted to them right until and

even with the vulnerable narcissistic

folks you'll say really someone's going

to be attracted to Sullen and resentful

well that's not how they come off when

you first meet meet them many times a

vulnerable narcissistic person looks

like a vulnerable child who needs to be

rescued so if you like rescuing people

or puppies or any small vulnerable

creature that's going to seem actually

very attractive to you so we're all

attracted to them what about what are

they attracted to in us they're what

they're attracted to in US is our supply

now Supply can mean different things to

different narcissistic folks classical

sorts of Supply or are we attractive if

we're attractive if we have some form of

social status if we have have resource

if we have connections the things that

would get them Supply here's where it

gets wonky because the question

attractiveness is what attracts people

it's almost the wrong question the more

deep question is what gets people stuck

in narcissistic relationships because

narcissistic relationships start strong

these are people who are running their

fastest miles in the beginning of the

marathon like they're just like go and

you this is these can often feel like a

fairy tale it is is it's glamorous and

it's exciting and it's the dates are

really interesting and they're very

attuned they may be very attentive they

focus on you and they figure what's

going to work for you if they really

want to keep you close it's they want to

they want to get you and they want to

get you quick because then you're like a

butterfly underglass then they've got

you captured because after all this good

stuff happens you've bought in you might

even be dubious for a while saying oh

seems seem too good to be true or I

don't know but then people after about I

always say it's somewhere between 6

weeks and six months the devaluing stage

starts and then it's they've got you

right and they they you might get the

passive aggressive digs the

minimizations

the lack of empathy the withdrawing the

withholding and people will say where

did that first six weeks go to like wait

a minute we had such a good time and as

the devaluing begins people start to

blame themselves so people who are more

empathic

more forgiving more optimistic these are

the kinds of people who get stuck

because they're making allowances for

this they're saying I mean I can't they

they were lovely and they did say

they're having a really stressful time

at work but their behavior is

consistently dismissive and rude and so

you keep making excuses excuses excuses

but then there's a few good days

sprinkled in there so one of the

interesting things is um a lot of people

are trying to figure out if their

partners are narcissists h do people in

relationships especially long-term

relationships tend to know that they're

dating a

narcissist or is the n or is the

narcissist gaslighted them to the point

that they they don't know until recently

most people did not know because it's it

feels like a disloyal thing to know

about your partner many people say I

love my partner we have built a life

together there are enough good days that

leave them thinking like there's

something here they're confused people

in these relationships are confused

they're they blame themselves for

everything that goes wrong they're

walking on eggshells they've in essence

modified themselves to be exactly what

the narcissistic partner wants but it's

a slow burn it's it's a very slow

process of indoctrination I always say

these relationships are Death By A

Thousand Cuts because it's just each of

these things happen slowly over time

it's almost as a one day you wake up

you're like who am like what have I

become I'm literally like living in

service to this other person it's only

in the last 10 years I'd say that

there's so much more content and the

internet is more robust with making this

and I'm sure people type it in my

partner has no empathy and is really

entitled and yells at me a lot Bing and

then narcissism pops out at you I think

this really created the revolution of

people saying what is this and even when

I wrote should I stare should I go that

was

2015 I think it was we're still in the

beginning phases there were just maybe

about a dozen books out there taking

this on and so we it's it's a as more

information gets out there more people

are clear

that this is happening in their

relationships the hope is the earlier

you identify it the less indoctrinated

the less what we call trauma bonded you

become and then the easier it would be

to make clear-headed decisions about how

you want to proceed you talk about the

three Rs that are the whole marks of

negative relationships in your books

what are the three Rs so the first is

rumination okay that the rumination is

it's an obsessive thinking about the

relationship and it's usually in an

attempt to either say what did I do

wrong what happened what is going on

it's a trying to fix it so these are the

three things that someone that's in a

relationship with a narcissist will do

yep I mean they do a lot more but these

are three common ones so the rumination

is a Hallmark characteristic of a person

in an narcissistic relationship in

essence you're just trying to make sense

of something that makes no sense the

next R is regret and that regret links

to bigger themes like grief people

having regret that this is the parent I

have and I will never have have a close

loving relationship with them the regret

that this is the marriage I created and

my children will never get a healthy

model of marriage the regret that I've

spent 20 years in this relationship and

really all I have to show for it is a

whole lot of nothing except that it's

harmed me so the regrets play out even

big ways and even small ways like why

did I say that why didn't I say it that

way and then the last R is it's really

euphoric recall the are being for recall

by euphoric recall I mean that people in

narcissistic relationships of an uncanny

ability to sort of

cherry-pick the good things that happen

in the relationship to keep

rationalizing it and justifying it to

themselves so ba might be in a

narcissistic relationship with a person

has really treated them heinously for a

month but on one day of that month the

narcissistic person when they went to

the grocery store for the first time

remembered to bring home two muffins so

that you could have a muffin and the

person's like they brought me home the

best blueberry muffin wasn't that

thoughtful they brought me home a muffin

we had muffins together so the euphoric

recall is the over focus on those good

experiences as a way in essence to

create this sort of psychological buyin

so then you can maintain the status quo

for people in narcissistic relationships

it's not as those they're waking up

saying this is a hellscape I want to get

out they're getting up saying I'm so

confused I feel like I'm never enough

nothing I do is Ever Enough nothing I

say is ever they're not listening to me

what is going on maybe I'm not being

clear enough maybe there's something

wrong with me so that's the confusion

element so it's not like everyone's

saying I want to get out of this there's

a lot of history there's a lot of

experiences together so people again and

they're also confused because there's

good things that happen and bad things

that happen and that's what creates like

I said this thing called the trauma

bonded relationship so people might even

be able to say like there's something

about this that isn't okay and might

even be able to articulate these are the

problems in the relation relationship

but the idea of leaving this

relationship fills me with an absolute

sense of panic would would a narcissist

play to that insecurity and that um that

history well the narcissistic person

created the insecurity and they they

will because the narcissistic person is

an expert tactician right because that's

what they bring to relationships is

tactics and so they are very expert at

knowing like ah your wound is

abandonment piece of cake so if you say

I I can't do this my out the

narcissistic partner say okay cool let's

call it quiz you'll like that's not what

I wanted them to say I wanted them to

say they were going to fight for the

relationship you see what I'm saying

like they it's so interesting because

and part of the reason narcissistic

people are so successful is because

they're so socially perceptive they have

no empath social perceptiveness and

empathy are not the same thing what do

they social perceptiveness is kind of

being aware of reading the room

understanding what people need

understanding what makes them tick and

what they want and then strategically

giving it to them to keep them on the

chain or keep them in the position you

need them in that's not

empathic manipulation you Ed the word

earlier on to describe

narcissism there's two types of

manipulation you speak about which is

the the sort of normal manipulation

which I think we all do in our own ways

when we're trying to get our way with a

deal or with sales or with someone or

whatever when we're trying to haggle for

a discount whatever it might be and then

there's this pathological ipulation

which seems to be a little bit different

M yeah pathological manipulation is that

there's absolutely no regard for the

harm it's bringing the other person you

really are giving absolute Primacy to

your own needs and then making the other

person think that this truly is good for

them this isn't as simple as I'm going

to sell this car to someone maybe it's

not the right car for them this is

really around psychological stuff and

it's with somebody where listen you're

going into a sales relationship you

understand what the sort of the codes of

that relationship are they're trying to

sell you something you're trying to

decide if it's right for you we don't

try to think of our intimate and our

familial relationships as sales models

so our guard is not up in the same way

and yet the same tactics are being

brought and we're sort of bargaining on

things that are matters of the heart and

matters of closeness and compassion so

it's again the narcissistic person is so

skilled at leaving the other person

feeling that the thing they sacrificed

or gave up was in their best interest

and and ultimately the narcissistic

person is so self-centered that anything

that they're trying to do is going to

serve them projection I've heard this

phrase used a few times like he's

projecting onto you or she's projecting

in the context of narcissism what is

projection so projection is CL is a

primitive defense that any of us can use

and we do use all of us engage in

projection we engage in projection when

some of that uncomfortable unconscious

stuff inside of us is getting activated

it's often shame or oriented and then

we'll accuse someone of something that

we're actually feeling like an

uncomfortable feeling that's projection

we all EX um how you might project onto

me okay uh we're in a we're in a

relationship and I'll say something like

who are you texting Stephen like why

what do you like you're so shady like

you know why don't you show your show me

your phone like what oh my gosh Stephen

like what the hell you need so many you

need all the girls to like you don't you

like that's what you're all you're about

show me your phone show me your phone

show me your phone now

guess who's got a side piece that would

be me oh really oh there's a life hack

for you Stephen okay so you're you're

insecure because you know that you're

Stephen not insecure I I'm doing a bad

thing are you still

pretending no I am no longer in a

relationship okay so we're done that's

because you cheated on me even though

didn't but it was me but now I can go be

with my new

guy so but it's I'm giving giv you like

such a loow hanging fruit example it's

anytime we might accuse someone of lying

when we're lying we may accuse somebody

of um even being insecure when we're the

one feeling insecure right we'll accuse

someone of being uncomfortable when

we're the one be who's feeling

uncomfortable and all of us have

different stuff we project about because

all of us have different sort of

psychodynamic histories right well

narcissistic people do this all the time

let me give you sort of a sense of what

the inner psychological apparatus of a n

a narcissistic person looks like despite

all the shiny charismatic Charming

arrogant grandiose stuff on the outside

what's in them is the best I can

describe it is a volcano right and that

volcano the magma and the gases and the

lava is shame and it's insecurity well

that's not very perfect looking is it so

all these defenses the grandiosity and

the arrogance and the charm and all the

rest of it is like a manhole cover a big

manhole cover that covers the volcano so

all that insecurity doesn't exist I'm

I'm just the smartest person you know

right so they get to show up as perfect

as

extraordinary but things can kick that

manhole cover off criticism negative

feedback their friend doing better than

them their new Venture not succeeding um

them not getting something that they

wanted some form of frustration well

that means they're not perfect the

manhole cover gets nudged the gases in

the lava o out what does that look like

it looks like anger it looks like

projection you accuse the other and this

happens to them 20 times a day CU nobody

lives a perfect life we get disappointed

all the time there's traffic on the

freeway there we had to wait for the

elevator the people at the coffee shop

screwed up our order our our public

offering didn't go well it could be big

things it could be small things it

doesn't matter but each time the manhole

cover gets nudged that grandiose

exterior gets tinged and they they

explode on others and that often looks

like projection and that projection

allows them to maintain that idealized

interior can they take feedback

narcissists like do they listen to the

do they no they they can't they really

don't they cannot the only time a

narcissistic person may may tiny bit

listen to feedback is if it comes from

somebody with much much more power than

them because narcissistic people are

very hierarchical climbing creatures

right so let's say they're getting it

the CEO's up here and there's some sort

of P level person here and they admire

the CEO the CEO is giving them

feedback they will listen because they

want to be him they want to be with him

they want to be next to or her or them

whoever the CEO is right but I so they

may get some of it but they're still

going to hear it

as there'll be this noise that's

blocking them out from hearing all of it

so it might be

compliance as a means to an end versus

them actually going ah okay no yeah

they're not not integrating it into

they're they're just sort of and they

might even think like God this person's

such a dick I I could do their job so

much better they're so lucky they got

there I'm going to get there but they

they again they also Envy this person so

they are listening but like you said it

is exactly what you said it's compliance

versus the sense of let me listen to

this and I can promise you what this

person's going to do if they're in a

relationship they're going to go home

and rage at their partner because they

had to have that feedback session

they're going to find a more vulnerable

Target because they can't attack that

CEO and they'll go and find someone else

to rage at a partner a person on the

subway train a family member friend

someone else I heard this word

gaslighting again it's a word I've heard

a lot but I I'm not necessarily really

clear on what the definition of

gaslighting is but from reading your

work I hear that narcissists gas light

people a lot a lot right what is

gaslighting so gaslighting it's simplest

it's a power play it's a form of

emotional abuse and it's a tactic

gaslighting is predicated on a

relationship that's ostensibly car

characterized by trust so that's why

strangers can't gasl at you in the same

way as an intimate partner a trusted

colleague a family member even a person

with expertise like an attorney or a

physician could Gaslight you right

because there's a there's a presumption

of trust so you're going to listen to

the gaslighter initially what the

gaslighter will do is they will doubt

The Gaslight head person's perceptions

experiences memories even reality that

never happened I never said that you're

making that up that you're we never went

there so now this person's a little

confused because their reality is saying

yeah we did yeah we did so initially a

person will fight back against a gas

light they'll say we absolutely went

there do you want me to show you the

pictures on my phone then we go to the

next step of gaslighting the gaslighter

doesn't want to see the pictures on your

phone they just want to overpower you

this isn't about evidence this is about

them overpowering you so they'll say

look here's the pictures on my phone and

then the gas fighter won't say well

you're right we did go there instead

they'll say oh my gosh you are the most

Petty human being I've ever met is this

what it is you're just going to go on

your phone to find the pictures to prove

something to me is that what this

relationship is I don't know that I want

even be in a relationship like this now

this poor person who's being gaslighted

is thinking I just showed them the

pictures to prove a point and now I'm

the bad one and so they're and they

trust this person so they think well

maybe I am doing something bad maybe I

am being petty but gaslighting doesn't

happen once it happens over and over and

over again it's an indoctrination

process that leaves the gaslighted

person utterly confused completely out

of their minds doubting themselves and

they start to believe the critiques then

the gaslighter will tell them things

like you're crazy you're stupid you

don't remember things right maybe you

have dementia do you think you should be

in therapy you might need to be on

medication like by the time the

gaslighter is done with with someone

they've lost all sense of they don't

they don't trust themselves at all and

so if they don't leave the relationship

and some people don't they are then sort

of in this again this form of servitude

with the narcissistic person or

gaslighting person almost relying on

them to lead them through reality so

it's almost like utter submission at

that point that they get the the

gaslighter gets to dictate reality and

then over time there's there's this

there's this tactic that narcissistic

and other abusive people use called dar

darvo stands for deny attack reverse

victim and offender it's a construct

that was developed by Dr Jennifer fried

deny attack reverse victim and offender

so what the narcissistic person will in

a very skill I mean in a cruy skillful

way do is if the person the gaslighted

person ever attempts to push back on

something that the narcissist is does

done like you came you said you were

going to be home by 9:00 last night you

didn't get home till 1: in the

morning the narcissistic prison will

deny said that's not true I came yeah I

didn't get home at 9: but I didn't come

home at any 1 in the morning but again

like what is your problem like what do

you do like you read the ADT guide all

day to see what time I come in the door

and you know what like I can't believe

that this is my life I work so hard to

keep us in this fabulous house I work so

hard so you can stay home and I'm the

bad guy like I can't even believe that

this is the issue like you put me

through so much reverse victim and

offender he was out till 1: in the

morning and he knows it but now he shut

down the conversation it is an Insidious

dynamic because done enough you

literally strip another person of their

reality and that is unacceptable to me

that's absolute abuse do you see this

alone all the time all the time it is

the dynamic that once it had name to it

when the word is used right most people

use this word wrong that whole process I

described is gaslighting when the word

is used correctly it's powerful it

captures a unique interpersonal Dynamic

that really eats people from the inside

out I hear it I see it all the time by

family members by Partners in the

workplace you name it and it really

messes people up because they they feel

like they've lost their minds and they

feel like they can't trust themselves

and I think that's a terrible thing to

do to someone what should you do if

you're being gas

lit when you know what it is and someone

starts to gas light you they literally

deny your reality right you have to take

a step back and say that's not what

happened but you don't say it to them

the importance with gaslighting is you

don't engage with the gaslighter you now

know you're being gaslighted which

means the other person in that

interaction has the capacity to Gaslight

you so what that means is from your side

you need to shut it down and that means

no longer engaging does that make so

that you cannot keep engaging with them

because they're going to pull you down

further and further yeah they're gonna

it's almost like they're going to pull

you down into into being drowned or pull

you into the quicksand so when they

start gaslighting I never said that one

playback could be we're having a

different experience then and leave it

at that don't go down that slipp SL

don't go down the slope don't say don't

show them the text message don't pull

out the email don't try to prove them

wrong don't engage with them it's it's

funny you're asking me this because I

was recently gaslighted I in relatively

recently in a professional

situation and I'm thinking not me like I

don't know much but I know this so don't

but they did I was and I got very upset

and in this particular situation it was

actually I understand why I got it like

think of it as a corporate structure

that was gaslighting me so sometimes

very very nice people who work in

corporate systems Gaslight because

they're trying to prop up the narcissism

of the corporation but they're decent

human beings and it was very clear to me

I've seen that happen but in this

particular case I was being gaslighted I

got upset though knowing all I know

knowing all the tactics it's very

dehumanizing to have your reality

completely doubted and so I I did feel a

sense of upset but I confronted the

person I said this is gaslighting and

it's not okay and I know you're better

than this and they will happen to be

this was a lucky case where the Nar the

the gaslighter was not

narcissistic so we came to a conclusion

but when I've been gaslighted by

narcissistic

people I just disengage and I file it

away and say this person is capable of

this this this there's really not much

juice here I don't this can only go so

deep controlling Behavior emotionally

but also I guess physically controlling

behavior when we when we often think

about narcissists we think of like sort

of domestic violence and this kind of

thing is that quite typical of a

narcissist to engage in domestic vience

so here's we get to an interesting

question you're from the UK and I have

to say actually of all the countries in

the world the UK actually has had has

taken the front I think the the the

highest front position in terms of being

very creating public policies around

understanding the psychological elements

of domestic violence it was actually a

coer of control laws first showed up in

the UK so I this is my personal belief

Stephen and this is my personal belief

and I will hold to this personal belief

100% I believe all domestic abusers are

narcissistic without exception and I'll

tell you why I think that the capacity

to tell someone I love you I'm going to

care for you we're in a

relationship and then to emotionally

physically or sexually assault them

that's zero empathy that's tremendous

entitlement

it's incredible

arrogance that's narcissism there's a

lack of self-awareness there's a lack of

awareness of the other and I think this

is why so much of the domestic violence

intervention programs they don't work

because how are you going to undo

someone's

narcissism so that's my belief and I

know that this has been a this is very

controversial conversation in the field

of domestic violence back in the 70s

there's a real push back on this I don't

think that anyone who does domestic

violence work will ever doubt that

there's a personality issue in these

folks but the concern was if we made it

about narcissism will pull the focus

away from their behavior right but I

think the two things go together the

behavior is unacceptable I don't give a

damn if they're narcissistic and this

whole idea of does the narcissism excuse

the behavior never if behavior is

unacceptable it's unacceptable I don't

care about the backstory because it

means it's going to happen again and it

always

does narcissism in work how do I know if

my boss or my manager or my CEO is a

narcissist and what should I do about it

do I quit the job so if you believe that

someone you report to a manager or a

boss or someone like that in a job is

narcissistic you're going to feel it in

the sense of you don't feel seen you

don't feel valued you feel like the

workplace is unpredictable you feel like

it's unfair that it's inequitable you

might even feel that it's

psychologically UNS safe you might feel

that the way people are praised and get

credit for their work again it doesn't

have Rhyme or Reason it is inequitable

it might be a very there might be a lot

of Gossip in the workplace those are the

things that would suggest a workplace is

you have you might be working for

someone who's narcissistic it's a tough

one it might a lot of this might depend

on the nature of your organization I

always tell people if you suspect that

you're boss or manager or someone you

report to is narcissistic start

documenting the hell out of it because

the one thing HR doesn't care is you you

cannot roll up to an HR office and say I

think my manager is narcissistic you're

going to need documentation which means

saving emails and text messages and

voicemails and meetings me U minutes of

meetings and you know you you're going

to need as much information try to avoid

meetings alone all that stuff to have

that sort of evidence base if you're at

a large enough company where you might

be able to switch to work under someone

else's management especially if you

still believe in the company some people

might say I love the organization I

can't stand working with this person

they may find that working with someone

else will allow them to preserve in the

institution but in a smaller employer or

where that is not possible some people

might try to stick it out the best they

can but documenting is not going to make

it easier so some people will find that

ultimately if they can't Outlast the

narcissistic boss or manager which they

often can't they will look for other

employment some people also find a lot

of solace in collaboration so just

because you work for a narcissistic

manager doesn't mean you're colleagues

are narcissistic and there's some

interesting research suggesting that

some really in um powerful collaborative

relationships can come when the

leadership is narcissistic but the the

teams actually come together even

stronger it's almost like they're United

against a common enemy I want to make

sure I've given enough advice to someone

who is currently dealing with a

narcissist all of the things that you've

said to them ring true they they can

relate to everything you've

said are you telling them to get out of

that situation no and it's something is

very very important to me is that people

don't feel compelled that they have to

get out cuz I can't always get out and I

think if we said if we put that forth as

the only pathway then people who can't

get out might say that now what I'm just

supposed to sit here and suffer and the

answer to that's

no in in in my in my book what I talk

about is this idea if you're gonna if

you're going to stay in a relationship

like this right for whatever reason

could be a family member and you you

don't you still don't want to fully walk

away from your family of origin it could

be a long-term marriage and you've got

minor children or there's Financial or

cultural reasons it might be a job

you've had for a long time and you're

not financially in a position to step

away from it it might be a friend you've

had a long time your reasons are yours

and so I always say to people you must

never feel pressure unless it's

dangerous let's take dangerousness out

of the equation right you don't feel

compelled to do what people say it's

going to be harder if you stay it is

going to be harder because you're still

being exposed OS to their manipulative

invalidating unkind unsettling

destabilizing behavior however the first

step the key step is what I call radical

acceptance this is not going to change

this is it there is going to be no

someday better it's not going to get

better when he gets a promotion it's not

going to get better for her when the

kids grow up your mom's not going to get

soften with age this is it folks you now

know what this looks like it is not

going to change substantially their

behavior is not going to change substant

stantially so if you're going to stay in

it your workarounds are going to be

based on knowing that you have to have

very realistic expectations now what

happens though is when people initially

have this level of radical acceptance

they have a tremendous amount of grief

because a lot of Hope was keeping them

going I thought it was going to get

better someday I thought maybe that

someday would come the staying means

that someday is not going to come and so

that means that you're not as once you

radically accept you're not as surprised

by their behavior cuz a lot of people

get exhausted from the number of times

over years or decades they're like I

can't believe they did that I can't

believe they did I'm like can we just

stop that part and say of course you

believe they did it in fact we could

have set a clock by the idea that they

would have done it by the fact they

would have done it that's a big piece of

this but the grief of letting go of what

you wanted these things to be that's its

own process and grief takes time but you

know as you come around through through

that as you come around the bend on that

you really do radically accept you need

some tools and probably the biggest tool

of all is social connection with people

who are healthy empathic attuned

responsive compassionate and respectful

whether that means you make you you

might have friends who already are this

for you it might be enhanced by getting

into therapy you might join a support

group you might meet friends at work

there's many ways you might try to do

this but you're going to need it because

if you're going to stay you're going to

need spaces where you're not gaslighted

you're going to need spaces where you

are seen where you are valued where you

are cherished that becomes the pathway

to surviving and then it doesn't feel

good to feel like you're in a marriage

where you're phoning it in for the rest

of your life but you know people people

say that now that I'm not as surprised

by their behavior it's a little more

bearable I've constructed a rich life

almost around this marriage and I just

sort of you know view that as sort of

the kind of annoyance in the side of the

room that it is some people people say I

happen to adore my my sister but I can't

stand my narcissistic parent and you

know I so but I'm going to stay in touch

with them so I can also have the family

gatherings that matter to my sister but

I no longer have conversations with my

mother or one person I know said she

would regularly visit a narcissistic

father because nobody else would give

him the time of day and he he needed a

little bit of assistance she said I'd

set a timer 90 minutes max once the 90

minutes rang out I said well I got a

jump he'd always yell at her she said

but better to yell at 90 minutes than at

3 hours either way he was going to yell

so people get into this space of

accepting what this is and its

limitations some people over time may

still decide to leave but not at that

moment but staying and not radically

accepting it will destroy you can you be

happy in a relationship with a

narcissist do you think you can be happy

but not with the relationship so you

don't think you can be happy with the

relationship I don't think so no I I

think you can see it with its

limitations and and I think you know

I've met people who said who have told

me everything about

narcissistic um Partners who said they

happen to be able to do this one sex

thing I love and so that's just I mean

all the rest of it's awful we can't end

anyhow so we do the sex thing and it

works for me um some people will say we

both love watching period dramas and

that's they're my person to do period

dramas with someone else said we we

obsessive about collecting antique

fountain pens and I really can't stand

spending time with him but we get

excited when we find a new pen someone

else said he's a hell of a Scrabble

player you find the one or two things

that work for you is it happy I mean

again we're getting back into philosophy

there that sense of it you know what's

happy on that point of sex are

narcissists better in better depends on

what you call Better I actually just

recently did there's a big piece in USA

Today on this that I'd been interviewed

for they are very performative lovers

they are as you can imagine they like

they they they almost want Applause

after the sex act right because they

need admiration and validation so they

actually can be rather invested in

getting a partner off because they want

to be told oh my gosh you're the best

lover ever they might want to be very

like mirror sex so they can see their

body or your body because it's all again

very performative but some narcissistic

folks are very selfish lovers the sex

can be a little bit porny like it's a

bit you know like a bit over the top and

like I said it feels performative and um

but for some people where it gets into

Dangerous Waters is when people are

narcissistic relationships and they feel

like they're having sex just to go along

just to keep the trains of the

relationship going along and that's a

very unhealthy precedent so it can be on

a spectrum from sort of ridiculous

performative sex to maybe they're

skilled that they want to sort of show

off but then they're like a little

six-year-old who wants to get a lollipop

for having done a good whatever on you

and then all the way up to stuff that

feels almost coercive Superman has

Kryptonite and in the context of the

Superman story Kryptonite is the thing

that um he's kind of allergic to the

thing that kind of you know defeats his

very strong set of powers for a

narcissist what is their Kryptonite what

is the thing that you know makes them

fall to their knees and that they run

from when they see it in a person a

trait

maybe I think that for a narcissistic

person there's a couple of ways

Kryptonite can show up I think that the

Kryptonite that we could bring into it

is not engaging with them anymore right

not giving them the satisfaction of the

fight not getting into the mud with them

we have to be strong in the face of that

because they're going to want the fight

so they're going to push and they're

going to push and they're going to push

and push and try to poke us and make us

take the fight because they're really

good at fighting another thing that's

Kryptonite for a narcissistic person is

a person who's much much more powerful

than them because they they do feel they

sort of feel cowed by them so if they me

like I said I gave you the example of

the sort of middle level narcissistic

person working in a large organization

and then they meet the big CEO and it's

really really great if you had one of

those empathic CEOs and then the

narcissistic person who's almost trying

to get into the good books with this

empathic CEO and all their usual tricks

aren't working that would definitely a

bit of be a bit of kryptonite too that

the very person that they Envy wants

them to be sort of warm and fuzzy and

all the things that they have contempt

for but I have to say not engaging with

a narcissistic person is the ultimate

Kryptonite and not sort of oooing and

eyeing narcissistic people are very used

to people oooing and eyeing over them

what about authentic

I saw you talk about that once that they

don't like people that are authentic

they feel threatened by people who are

authentic so and to show up as your

authentic self in a narcissistic

relationship can actually be say

dangerous I put dangerous in quotes it's

not like they're going to beat you up

but they're not going to have it right

your true self your authentic self

they're going to mock it they're going

to have contempt for it they're going to

if if you're not solid in that authentic

identity they're going to attempt to

dismantle it which is why many people

struggle if they don't know they're

dealing with a narcissistic person they

may struggle with authenticity in a

narcissistic relationship because it

gets dismantled it's hard enough for us

to get to authenticity if somebody wants

to dismantle it especially when we're

younger I think authenticity the odds of

it happening grow with age it's young

it's hard to be a young authentic person

but if you remain solid in your

authentic identity around the

narcissistic person they'll actually

probably get bored and leave which is

always the Hope right they may ramp up

for a little while but then that you're

just not an interesting Target to them

anymore so then they'll sort of slowly

lose interest and walk away famous

narcissists what what what famous people

are oh [ __ ] you think all famous people

are I don't think all are but I think a

lot are because the Quest for fame is a

very narcissistically driven interest

right so I think most normal people

don't want to be famous they really

don't if you talk to average per person

do you want to be famous like hell no I

want to be able to go to the grocery

store and have no one know who I am I

want to be able ble to live my life

without being recognized so I think we

talk famous people you're saying that is

it one in five one in six seems like a

lot I'd say famous people we at 40 to

50% 40 to 50% of famous people I do I

really think it's a coin flip what about

world leaders now we're we might be

closer to 60 to 70% I mean think of what

you're signing up for it's crazy I need

to run a country I believe I can run a

country and you know what there's we

have in over history had some good

people do that but when you look at the

circus politics has become which is

performative and ridiculous and

bombastic and cruel and critical and

manipulative I don't see how someone

non-narcissistic could ever win at that

game why do we vote for narcissists why

do we put them into Power well I mean I

think that we we we're still we still do

what I call we or many of us call we

still Fawn in their in their in the face

of their Charisma I think we believe

somebody who walks around thinking that

they're all that that that they actually

have the goods I still think we fall for

the circus Barker we fall for the person

who is who is sort of selling the story

we we we vote for them we choose them

and I think we want you know this is the

best example I can give you Stephen when

we go to a magic show right I don't know

if you've ever been to a magic show this

place called The Magic Castle in La you

should you should try to go sometime

because I find it intriguing but when

you go there's no there's no such thing

as magic it's all slight of hand right

but for a moment we I don't want them to

show me the trick I want to be lost in

the magic and most of us most of us not

all I think some people want to know how

the trick is done but once we're shown

how the trick is done the magic's gone

now it's just it's it's it's dexterity

right most people don't want to know how

the trick is done we want to believe in

magic and that's why narcissistic people

don't get called out because there's

something about them there's something

that

feels you know there's a confidence they

breed because they have so much

conviction but it's misplaced conviction

it's not not conviction backed by facts

or Integrity it's just they just believe

it because they think it's true and it's

going to forward their cause so that

becomes a selfing exactly but we believe

most of us don't have that kind of

conviction we doubt ourselves we

question ourselves and so when someone

comes in with absolute 100% I wanted to

bang my hand but I didn't 100%

conviction we're like wow then they must

really know what they're talking about

leaders have conviction but in fact when

we see a leader who's circumspect who

might say well give me a minute I want

to weigh both sides of this those

leaders are often viewed as more

weak-minded and are less likely often to

get the vote if our adversary in another

country is a narcissist you know like a

Putin or I know Kim Jong whatever he's

called um would we rather our leader

that's against him be a narcissist as

well that's a fantastic question do we

want a narcissist fighting a narcissist

I would say

that the problem with a narcissist

fighting a narcissist is that they lose

track of what is good for their people

MH so they could drag them into a

conflict or a problem that could harm

the populace economically physically

battles Wars the whole nine yards right

and that's what a narcissistic person is

more likely to do because they can't be

the smaller one in the fight it's all

about e it's two egos fighting each

other they can't just say okay no but an

overly empathic leader might do a little

bit of saying okay and then a

narcissistic or a psychopathic leader

will absolutely sort of railroad that

person that sort of perfect midlevel

sort of

wise

circumspect aware of the needs of the

populace but aware of the psychology of

the perpetrator is what we want I have

to say if I ran the world Stephen and I

don't not even even long shot and I wish

I was more grandiose because really my

career would be fire if I was but I'm

not and so but I wish what one place I

wish we really brought more narcissism

training is into di diplomacy I wish

more of the diplomats around the planet

secretaries of state and un

Representatives understood narcissism

because I think a lot of times people

are making bad deals where a lot of

people are getting hurt and they're

trying to negotiate with people you

cannot negotiate with anyone who's ever

tried to negotiate with a narcissistic

spouse knows that it's impossible it's

no different with a world leader and I

think a lot of innocent people have been

incredibly harmed as we diddle around

and try to negotiate with narcissistic

world leaders and just simply aren't

willing to call them out for what they

are what is the most important thing we

haven't discussed that we should have

discussed I would say the most important

thing that we've discussed is that I

don't want people to leave this

conversation thinking it's all doom and

gloom people can take themselves back

from these relationships this isn't like

sort of some terrible deterministic

destiny that I've been through a

narcissistic relationship so I'm never

going to be authentic I think what's

remarkable is once people learn about

this and they're taught about this and

the Dynamics of it and they're given

permission to call abusive Behavior what

it is they're able to slowly but surely

start coming back into themselves no

longer shaming themselves for having a

need or a want or a feeling or a hope

people do heal and I've seen remarkable

stories of people coming back from

familial narcissistic abuse marital

narcissistic abuse long-term commit

relationship narcissistic abuse

workplace narcissistic abuse and out of

it have come out so much wiser stronger

finally enacting their creative selves I

really want people to leave this episode

knowing all the Dynamics but that not

only is healing possible it happens all

the time to people but it's work and

it's not an easy

process if you've seen my most recent

post on LinkedIn you probably have seen

that I'm on a bit of a hiring spree at

the moment across my company flight

group trying to find the world's best

talent and throughout these years of

build building these businesses my first

Port of Call for hiring has always been

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we have a closing tradition where the

last guest leaves a question for the

next guest oh in the Diary of a CEO not

knowing who they're leaving it

for the question here that's been left

for you is

which was your darkest day and how did

you turn the lights

on I was stalked by someone who went who

sexually assaulted me and um it was sort

of this nightmarish Collegiate

Experience before you would report these

things I'm I'm again I'm quite a bit

older than you and it was it was

horrific I it was just absolutely

horrific and there was I didn't

understand I talk about not knowing what

narcissism was I was was I was much

younger as I'm still my teens early 20s

um but you that one experience you

learned so much about what trauma does

to us but I it was it was absolute

Terror I was being stalked all the time

I didn't know what to do we didn't

understand this stuff then we did not

understand we did not talk about it it

was we didn't have cell phones it was

still like it still back in the these

dialing phones days and the person just

kept Breaking Me Down breaking me down I

didn't know what I was dealing with I

didn't have a lot of self self-esteem I

didn't know who to ask and you know it

was sort of and then it was um yeah it

was what it was and so probably is what

propelled me to want to work with people

who are doubted by systems and who are

to help me want understand trauma A

system that doubted you there was

nowhere to go with that stuff to this

day when women bring um

reports of sexual assault or abuse on

college

campuses they're they're believed

they're not believed more often than

they are believed they're blamed there

wasn't even a I didn't even know where

to go I didn't know where to take it I

didn't know who to tell it's fine I mean

I I when I say it's fine i' like I've

done the work I've been supported

through therapy but you just didn't know

where to take it with they an narcissist

that person who did it I didn't know

them well enough at the time time there

was someone who was sort of peripherally

known to me yes for sure I say

vulnerable narcissist actually which I

think by far even some ways is com is at

level with the the the danger of the

malignant narcissistic person and in

that time Stephen very frankly like

doing this work I don't know what your

experience has been as a public person

but maybe as a woman woman of color it's

it's a little more risk is that I've had

people um say very dangerous things to

me in online spaces and issue some real

threats towards me

and it all came back at me in fact we

had something like this happened in the

last few years and it just it flooded me

I I'd really compartmentalized that

piece and it was um and it all comes

flooding back when when you went through

something like that when you felt again

back then it wasn't online stocking it

was using phones it was following you

places my things were being stolen it

was a lot of gaslighting my things would

be stolen then my things would be put

back so the campus police didn't believe

me they'd said you said your stuff was

so stolen but your backpack is right

there but the person would take my

backpack and then put the backpack back

in its place can I ask how did that end

um I left the

university is is that why you left the

UN has that inspired why you were

focused on working on this subject

matter at all no no I I I think I'm like

most people should try my I I don't mean

to laugh about it but I

compartmentalized it you know and I'm

saying like as we mostly dissociate from

our pain and so um consciously it's uh

no not consciously I think dissociation

is a very protective mechanism I think

the the way the mind and the body work

when we've gone through trauma I think

the body's beautiful and how it tries to

protect us um I think the mind is also

trying to protect us and together like

these these are painful things but the

problem is them getting pushed away

actually doesn't do us any favors if you

will you know what I'm saying and so um

but

yeah well thank you thank you for um

taking the time to write such brilliant

important books on a subject that is

still not welln enough H in the way that

you go about both your videos your

content more broadly but especially your

books is so important because you're

giving information in a very very

accessible way and information is always

and awareness is always the first step

in being able to do something about your

situation and there must be so many

thousands hundreds of thousands of

people millions of people that have been

exposed to your work it's heightened

their awareness and because of that

they've taken a step out of a situation

that wasn't serving them that was

hurting their health and happiness and

towards a better place and that is a

really remarkable thing that is a really

really remarkable thing this book was um

I've heard about the word narcissism but

this new book it's not you turn the

lights on for me in a really really

important way to be honest as well as a

CEO as a business leader it also made me

um ask myself a lot of questions about

myself about behavior that I have I

don't consider myself to be a narcissist

but but as I was reading about the

behaviors of narcissists and also the

impact that it can have on someone I

thought [ __ ] hell like you

know it's um as you said it's Insidious

it's Insidious and we I think I'm right

in saying that we can all

exhibit some traits of narcissism

sometimes and we kind of you know Define

that as being an our or whatever um and

it really made me want to be a better

person it really really did really made

me want to be a much much better person

so thank you for that thank you for

shining a light on this subject matter

and thank you for all the millions of

people that you've helped through your

work it's really important I love that I

I mean I think that that's such an

interesting take on is that we do

sometimes do these things that are

narcissistic but we you know not even

because we are narcissistic but to even

recalibrate those behaviors I think the

the the better we all can be the more

we're fortified should someone who has

these qualities come into our life that

we don't give up on ourselves and I

think that that's the more good we can

sort of create in our univers is that

the bad's going to happen it's the

nature of life but we'll be stronger in

the face of it so thank

you I think it was about a year ago I

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that as many of you know I pretty much

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stepen for Holiday

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savings

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