Inigo Mujika - Science and Practice

Summary

This podcast discusses a book focused on combining sports science and practical training advice on endurance training. Topics include the importance of training continuity, avoiding illness and injury, optimizing recovery, heat adaptation benefits, tapering strategies, and strength training for endurance athletes. The hosts emphasize adapting programs based on athlete response, embracing both science and 'art' in coaching, using overlapping training intensities to achieve physiological adaptation, and periodizing strength training to avoid interference with endurance goals.

Takeaways

• 😀 Continuity in training is crucial - interruptions can negatively impact performance
• 👍🏻 Elite athletes tend to get sick less often due to better training practices and genetics
• 🧠 Periodization of recovery strategies is important for maximizing adaptation
• ❄️ The usefulness of cold water immersion depends on the training phase and goals
• 🔥 Heat exposure after running could boost hematological adaptation
• 📈 Overlapping training zones can target multiple physiological adaptations
• 🤔 The importance of zone training for adaptation may be overstated sometimes
• 🏋️‍♀️ Strength training benefits endurance athletes via multiple mechanisms
• ⚖️ Strength training must be periodized appropriately to avoid interference
• 😊 Maximizing adaptation rather than just training load should be the goal

Q & A

What is the main idea behind producing new editions of the book on endurance training science and practice?

The main idea is to compile the latest scientific research and evidence accumulated over the past 10 years in a practical way so that practitioners can understand the science and apply it to improve training and performance of endurance athletes.

How does continuity in training contribute to successful endurance competition outcomes?

Research shows that performing at least 80% of the planned training program is key to having a successful endurance competition outcome. Any interruptions due to injury, illness, or other factors disrupts this continuity and is problematic.

Why might elite athletes have a lower risk of illness compared to highly trained athletes?

Possible reasons are: 1) Better education on preventative self-care, 2) Enhanced immune function from high quality training, 3) Genetic gifts making their immune systems more resistant, and 4) Access to expert staff helping them manage various stressors.

What are some key strategies for proactive recovery that can help continuity in training?

Key strategies include nutrition, hydration, sleep, hot/cold water therapy, compression, massage, and most importantly, periodization of recovery including strategically avoiding proactive recovery to maximize adaptation.

How does the concept of overlapping intensity zones and adaptations challenge traditional views of training physiology?

Rather than isolated intensity zones only yielding specific adaptations, there is actually considerable overlap where training in certain zones can stimulate multiple physiological adaptations. The body and training should be viewed holistically rather than compartmentalized.

Why has strength training become more popular for endurance athletes in recent years?

Growing research over the past 20 years clearly demonstrates strength training can boost endurance performance by improving power, efficiency, fatigue resistance, and more in both short and long duration efforts.

What are some simple recommendations for endurance athletes wanting to add strength training?

Choose basic exercises matching movement patterns of the sport, focus on quality over quantity, periodize to coordinate with other training, and strategically time nutrition around sessions to manage interference and adaptation.

How much strength training are elite swimmers doing currently and why?

Elite swimmers are doing extensive strength training nearly daily for power production, propulsive force, overcoming drag, core stability, body positioning, and more depending on their events.

What should be the main priority when designing a training program - maximizing training load or maximizing adaptation?

The priority should be maximizing adaptation rather than just maximizing training load or volume. It is about optimizing the dose-response to stimulate optimal adaptations, which often requires avoiding excessive fatigue.

What is the key takeaway message when implementing sports science into practical coaching?

There needs to be both science and 'art' - data-based programming as the foundation but also creative adjustments as an athlete. Finding the optimal balance and timing of training elements is a nuanced art.

Outlines

00:00

😀 Introducing the topic of endurance training science and disclaimer about book involvement

The hosts Lars and Ino introduce the topic of discussing the science and practice around a new edition of the endurance training book edited by Ino. Ino discloses that he is the editor and publisher of the book but the intent is to have an objective discussion about the science and recommendations that practitioners can apply.

05:02

😊 Emphasizing training continuity as key and examining factors influencing injury risk

They agree training continuity without interruptions is very important for successful competition outcomes. An S-shaped curve shows injury risk is lowered at high training volumes when athletes take proper preventive measures guided by scientific support staff. Various stressors affecting injury risk are examined.

10:03

😎 Discussing periodized recovery strategies and enhancing adaptation

The need to periodize and proactively plan recovery using science-based strategies is emphasized, not just focusing on the training stimulus. Sometimes withholding recovery aids adaptation. The goal is maximizing adaptation not necessarily maximizing training.

15:05

🤔 Balancing training plans as both science and art

Coaching endurance training is both science and art. Training plans should be adaptive frameworks not rigid programs. Uncertainties in adaptation science means getting the perfect physiological stimulus is less critical than continuity guided by evidence.

20:08

😕 Criticisms of compartmentalized training zone concepts

The common view of isolated training intensity zones stimulating specific adaptations is criticized. Overlapping intensity effects and interconnection of physiological systems is emphasized instead.

25:08

🤨 Questioning the focus on lower training zones for peripheral muscular adaptations

The idea that lower training zones stimulate peripheral muscle adaptations more than higher zones is questioned. Counter-evidence for high-intensity zones stimulating factors like sodium-potassium pumps is raised.

30:09

🤔 Examining integration of strength training for endurance athletes

The growing evidence over 20 years showing strength training benefits for endurance is examined. Considerations around periodization and interference with endurance training are raised.

Keywords

💡continuity

Continuity refers to the ability of an athlete to sustain training over a long period without interruptions from injury, illness, or other factors. As discussed in the video, research shows that completing at least 80% of a training program is key for performance success. Continuity is therefore critical for athletes to build fitness and adapt to training loads.

💡periodization

Periodization means structuring training into different phases or periods to maximize performance gains. As mentioned in the video, periodization concepts can be applied to plan not just the training itself, but also the recovery strategies used at different times.

💡recovery

Recovery encompasses the strategies and time needed to allow the body to adapt and regenerate after training loads. As highlighted in the video, recovery has become as important as the training itself in the overall adaptation process.

💡illness

The video discusses how illness can severely impact continuity and derail an athlete's preparation, even right before a major competition. Preventing illness is therefore a key priority, especially for elite athletes.

💡strength training

Strength training is now recognized to complement and enhance endurance training. As the video describes, it can boost power, efficiency, fatigue resistance and other qualities relevant to sport performance.

💡periodize

To structure training into different periods or phases. The video emphasizes that training/recovery strategies should be periodized over a season to match different goals.

💡adaptation

Physiological adaptation refers to the positive changes and fitness gains the body experiences in response to applied training loads and recovery strategies.

💡intensity

Training intensity defines how hard or demanding a session is. As discussed in the video, there is an overlap between intensity zones and the physiological adaptations they can stimulate.

💡zone

An intensity zone refers to a target level of physiological effort, often based on percentage of max heart rate or a lactate/ventilatory threshold.

💡transfer effect

The transfer effect refers to performance gains in one activity from training in another activity. For example, the video describes strength training having positive transfer to endurance sport performance.

Highlights

Continuity and avoiding illness are key for endurance performance.

Elite athletes often have lower illness risk due to better education, support staff, and potentially genetics.

A good training program is evolving and adapts based on the athlete's response.

Training is an art - science provides guidance but coaches still need creativity and intuition.

Strength training benefits endurance through increased power, efficiency, fatigue resistance.

Strength training strategies should match sport demands - different for runners vs. cyclists.

Swimmers utilize strength training for power, propulsion, core stability - often training twice per day.

The goal is to maximize adaptation, not necessarily maximize training.

Recovery should be periodized - sometimes no strategies are best to maximize adaptation.

Environmental heat exposure enhances subsequent exercise heat adaptation.

Post-exercise heating expands blood volume, boosting endurance adaptation signaling.

Training intensity zones overlap in their physiological adaptations.

Strength and endurance can be separated within a day to manage interference.

Simple strength exercises with good form and movement specificity are most important.

Take home message: Maximize adaptation, not necessarily maximize training.

Transcripts

hello and uh a very warm welcome to this

series of podcast focusing on if I say a

little lower here science and practice a

new edition of a book that has been led

by Eno Mika which I have with me here

today and a very warm welcome to you Ino

thank you

Lars H and um first of all we should

make a disclaimer I just made a chapter

for this book I enjoyed reading some of

the other chapters and therefore I

thought it could be interesting to

invite you in nro who has so to say

edited all of the the book and uh who

will at least have your your cost of

producing the book covered by this it's

not a big industry but at least we

should maybe make the disclaimer that

all of the uh the advertising for this

book of course you have a small uh

interest in it but uh otherwise we're

here to discuss the science behind and

and some of the challenges that there

are from you could say translating

science what is the level of evidence

for a given practice uh procedure into

practice well yes uh that disclaimer is

important I'm the editor of the book but

I'm also the publisher of the book yeah

um but the whole idea behind this book

uh from the very first edition 11 years

ago that was that uh I thought it was

necessary to to put together a a book

that compiled all the science that we

had accumulated over the past 10

years um in a practical way so that

practitioners could understand the

science and try to apply and implement

the science in their daily practice uh

the reason for the first edition was

that the previous uh good endurance

training scientific book was already 10

years old it was part of the

international Olympic committees uh

Sports Medicine encyclopedia and I

thought well it's been already 10 years

I think we need a new book uh on this

topic that's why I produced the first

edition of endurance training science

and practice and it has been another

decade since uh I I published the first

edition so I thought it was time

uh to publish a new edition because I

consider that within 10 years as Sports

scientists can accumulate sufficient um

evidence base to uh change our

understanding and add sufficiently to

the scientific literature on the one

hand and to the recommendations that we

can give to practitioners on the other

hand yeah so that's that's the main

reason why we put together this uh

Second Edition that came out a couple

months ago yes and of course the book

has 33 chapters and covers all aspects

from recovery to uh uh risk of illness

to different kinds of training practices

and so on and of course we will have to

refer the reader to subsequent talks

maybe I already arranged the talk with

Steven Siler and I also took the his

hierarchy of training needs to say okay

we we sought to say agree that there's a

kind of a base the the major of training

you need to have a certain kind of

volume intensity and you need to include

different kind of training and we will

specifically touch upon strength

training as also a part of maybe the

base for for endurance performances also

even though that's in the more intense

area and you can always discuss but it

fits with my and I added my notes here

over in in red that that the base of of

becoming better as an endurance athlete

is continuity I mean you can train

excellently for a long period of of

years if you're sick the last month

before of the Olympics you will so to

say waste all of your uh uh your effort

on the continues and of course illnesses

Every Man's uh you can suffer from that

from from various reasons but I mean you

can also become injured and so on so

that is of course kind of the base uh

for this country

and then I also like this idea of

introducing okay what is well

established and where is it that we uh

so to say where the the training

practice also is so to say something

where you it's not that well established

but you have certain experiences with

it and I added that I think it's quite

well established and maybe some that has

been done over the last uh 10 years that

some of the for example giving the

environmental aspects that they have now

become well established at least if you

want to perform in the heat it is

evident that that heat adaptation is

important but I also think we have

accumulated evidence since the last book

that that it actually also has a

transfer effect and likewise with the

tapering that you have leted some of the

experiments in I mean it's well

established of course you have to have

it on top if if you don't have a base if

you don't have a volume to taper from

then then then there's no need for the

tapering m I totally agree with you uh

Lars particularly on the topic of

continuity uh I think it's key uh in

Endurance Sports because you mentioned

the fact that you might get ill in the

final month before the main competition

but also if you get continuous

interruptions in your training process

that is going to be a a big big problem

there is now sufficient evidence uh

indicating that the

main uh the main thing leading to a

successful endurance competition is

being able to perform at least 80% of

the of the training process as initially

planned by the coaches if you manage to

fulfill 80% of the of the training

program you are very likely to have a

successful outcome in your in your

competition yeah so any interruption in

the training process is going to be

problematic and I I remember one of the

uh one of the athletes that I coached

one of the triathletes that I coached to

uh four Olympic Games she used to tell

me that uh the thing that gave her most

confidence was

knowing that she had done everything

that was written in the training program

she said I don't need a psychologist I

don't need anything else if I know I

have done everything that is written in

the training program that is my biggest

um

contributor to being confident in

competition and that comes with this

idea of continuity and fulfilling and

being able to perform the entire program

properly no but also sometimes you can

have the idea I need to optimize all

parameters and so on and I mean if at

the end of the day your backpack is

getting too fill and that will will stay

to say that you overdo it so of course

that is one of the balances that we also

have to how do we actually do that and

that is of course a manage from

everything from you could say organizing

the training so it is feasible to have

the high intensity the kind of volume

and all that you need but also to

integrate the other types of stress uh

that the athlete will be be exposed to

and maybe we should actually uh start

with the last figure here uh because in

the in this discussion of having a

continuity I mean I think that these two

key figures from the book uh may be

showing two of the most importance that

I mean you have a training session and

if you need to be ready for the

subsequent training uh session you both

have to optimize your

recovery all the aspects from nutrition

hydration sleep that is on the bottom to

other you could say more applied uh so

on but of course you also need to avoid

uh

illness um and in in that chapter in in

chapter 18 where this figure is from

there's actually also this uh this

classical U or j-shaped where you can

have okay if you have low activity

moderate and then if you have high

intensity but then I like the figure

that in the elite maybe there is

actually a lowering again and and then

you could discuss is that the natural

selection or is it that because I mean

training hard is not a matter of

exhausting and also maybe uh making

yourself vulnerable to illness that the

elite has a lower

risk or is that just because what

characterized the very very top uh Elite

is that they don't get ill as easily is

that because they have a a better um

coping and a better balance between the

stress because the exercise is a stress

can it also make you more vulnerable and

you chose this figure up

here because I mean it it's it's so to

say tried to integrate that it's the

it's the total stress that an athlete is

exposed

to well this this is uh this is one of

the ideas that has been an evolution

over the past 10 years initially we

thought that the the risk of illness

um had a a u

shape with uh with the intensity of your

training program program so uh if you

don't do anything you have more risk of

illness if you train moderately then you

have a a lower risk of illness but then

if you train a lot like Elite athletes

do then your risk of illness is

increased so it would be a use shape but

over the past years we have learned that

it's more likely to have um what the

authors of the chapter of chapter 18

call an S shape meaning that

at the very top Beyond highly trained

and going into Elite there might be a

drop in the risk of illness and they

attribute that drop to um one the fact

that Elite athletes train more

consciously and they take care of

themselves very very well because they

are more educated and they are

surrounded by better staff that educate

them into taking care of of themselves

and taking all the preventive measures

to avoid illness secondly there is

probably because of the quality of

training there is probably uh some kind

of um enhancement of their immune system

so that they develop some resistance to

illness and thirdly there is the

possibility that they might be

genetically

uh gifted and more system to to uh

falling ill but the the reason why I

chose this particular graph is because

it shows very well it summarizes very

well the different

stressors that might affect the injury

risk and one of the reasons that I just

mentioned and that the authors mention

in the chapter why Elite athletes might

have a lower risk of illness is because

they are very well educated

regarding uh how to take care of

themselves when they have to face

extreme

environments latly they are very well

educated on the importance of sleep

quite often they are uh supported by uh

psychology professionals and they can

face the psychological stressors they

are way well educated in general and

they have the support of good

nutritionists so they know how they

should eat they know what supplements

they need they know what probiotics they

should be taking whenever they have to

face international travel they have

recommendations from the sport Science

staff about how to deal with that jet

lag and travel fatigue Etc and uh the

endurance exercise that they perform is

usually well planned and that's another

point that I wanted to make regarding

the continuity idea of course if you do

everything that is written in the

training program we we start from the

from the concept that the program is

well designed and and that whoever has

designed the program knows very well

what he or she is doing that's the only

way that we can make sure that you do

everything that's in the program uh the

outcome is going to be good it has to be

a good program of course but all these

factors uh we have learned a lot about

extreme environment sleep psychological

support of athletes nutrition

international travel uh etc etc and that

is another factor that contributes to

that continuity by helping Elite

athletes avoid illness we we have a

saying that you don't become a world

champion by doing the influenza interval

which is so to say the the the

additional interval that actually make

you overdo it but also make you have a

large open window afterwards but of

course it's a balance because on the

other hand you don't want to skip a

given interval so I guess that's where

you as you said many athletes they tend

to say okay I have to follow the program

and and if the program says you have to

do five times five minutes uh maximal

efforts or something whereas it could be

finding the balance of what is

appropriate and of course that is both

in terms of of uh of reducing the the

illness risk but of course also in

having the continuity in terms of just

you could say just recovery from one

training session to the

next that's why the program is not

written in stone the program has to be

evolving

changing and although you might have a

general idea of where you want to go as

a coach or as a practitioner you have a

general idea of how you want to do it

and where you want to go uh you need to

adapt it progressively as the training

process goes

and when I when I worked as a coach of

elite triathletes I hardly ever gave

them more than one week at a time of

course I had my general program the

overall plan for the entire season

but the the the plan for week to week

training was actually designed week to

week if everything had gone according to

the program then I could continue as

planned but of course I needed to make

changes as we went along that's what I

meant by saying that the program should

not be written in stone and if one day

instead of eight repetitions you need to

do six well then do six and if one day

instead of doing eight you need to do 10

well then maybe you need to do 10 but

you need to modify the program as you go

yeah uh and and ensure that continuity

by avoiding illness and I think besides

all those measures that we have just

mentioned the the graph at the bottom is

very important the U the use of

proactive recovery because for many

years all training and all adaptation

process has been centered around the

exercise part of the training process

and I always say that I don't consider

training as the time you are training I

consider it a cycle in which you need to

take into consideration the time you are

training and also the time you are

recovering from that training and for

many many years we have focused on the

part of the exercise but we have

forgotten about the part of the recovery

and over the past 15 to 20 years there

has been a lot of emphasis on learning

how to implement adequate recovery to

make sure that the entire circle is well

covered the entire cycle not just the

exercise part but also the recovery part

and I think the uh the chapter on

recovery in the new edition of the book

is is really good and I love this figure

uh figure 72

because it it shows most of the recovery

strategies that are used on a day-to-day

basis by Elite level athletes but it

shows is within a within a graph of cost

to benefit

ratio because some some strategies might

be useful but they are

so uh expensive sometimes or so

difficult to access that they are of

very little use to the majority of

athletes you could also argue here that

that the the things in the green to the

far right nutrition hydration sleep and

you have adequate oparation of of

recovery sometimes you might train uh

before you're fully recovered but you

should allow that on at least a longer

basis that they are the base and I mean

you can have some of the top I mean

having hot bath and so on uh but if you

if if the base is not there if you don't

sleep and you don't hydrate and so on

then the other thing is uh I mean you

will lose uh many of these things what

one of the things that I would like to

challenge on that one is the cold water

immersion I mean that was introduced in

sort to say to reduce inflammation

following training and you could also

say maybe in some of running and some

that has a high exentric uh component

maybe you can reduce it but on the other

hand there's also some that it can

confine

adaptation I thought there was a recent

meta analysis where it showed that I

mean it was almost every study showed

that there was a lower outcome when you

use post uh strength training cold water

in in submersion not in endurance uh

sport no no no but it might it might it

might uh hinder uh hypertrophic uh

adaptation it might hinder strength

training adaptation but uh the latest

Research indicates that when you are uh

in a phase of intensive training for

endurance actually those who did cold

water immersion got a better outcome of

a of a training camp in this case it was

uh Elite cyclists but that's why you

need to put this in in relation with

that most beneficial and less least

costly uh recovery strategy which is

periodization of recovery it doesn't

cost anything to periodize

recovery and it provides a lot of

benefit and sometimes sometimes what

this means is that you are not supposed

to use any recovery strategies so when

you are in a phase when adaptation is

not is the most important not

performance not competition outcome when

adaptation is the most important the

best recovery strategy you might use is

not to use any proactive recovery

strategy because the main goal is to

maximize adaptation no no that's Al

always important to have in mind is it

performance or adaptation which is

important here ex was just to say that

some Sometimes

some a factor can have a positive effect

on one but then it can offset other

things one of that's why you need to

periodize it are you in a phase when you

want to emphasize a strength well you

can take out a cold water immersion and

maybe you can use something else you can

use compression garments if you want to

help the athlete but at some point you

might you might want to not use

anything and and let the athlete adapt

following the stress of training without

any help yeah but it's also started to

use I mean either if you're a runner to

use post exercise actually Heating in

order to boost the the the hematological

adaptation I think there's some recent

evidence that uh that for runners they

use it as passive in cyclist use it as

active they can do it while they're

training but the whole idea is actually

to heat up the body in order to say have

the Vaso dilation have an increased

vascular space which may be a signaling

then for uh for further

irres I mean training in itself seems to

stimulate it because I mean we see blood

volumes are higher in trained athletes

but the idea that you can prolong the

period where you have an increased

vascular space might actually also have

have some signaling uh effects that can

can have you boost the blood volume and

then if you use the cold water then you

could reverse that so maybe you should

have to have them in in so to say

variation therapy I

mean I I I can follow the idea that

let's say that you are running and you

want to reduce the inflammation okay use

this in a period but then maybe you

should reverse it to have it increased

afterward perhaps well that's in this

graph we also have hot water immersion

and we also have contrast water therapy

as pure recovery strategies whereas what

you are mentioning would be more in the

sense of uh adaptation enhancement and

and inducing inducing additional benefit

from from training and that is a section

that is covered in your chapter in

particular the one about uh training and

competing in the heat but it also

sometimes shows how complex it can be

and how it how important it is to

actually be specific and be very aware

of what you have to

do I would like to me another thing

because I think that this as you said

that you are actually aware of the

Holistics of it you're aware of all of

the stressors up in the upper part

you're aware of the differences and say

okay don't be overdoing it and so on is

is where the the science meets the

practice because you would have a lot of

scientists and I also still see it in

some of the scientists go out and become

coaches I don't want to mention any

cycling teams but where they they still

think that okay if a training session

says five hours then if it's only four

and a half because it starts raining or

here in Denmark I mean snowing in the

winter and so on and you do that to

avoid illness and then instead you put

on a half an hour on another day or you

say okay maybe on the big picture

because I need to have the continuity I

do this I mean I see some of these uh

because they say oh the program says 5

hours it has to be 5.0 hours and I mean

they so to say they they lose themsel in

a little detail that so to say actually

compromise the overall yeah we are not

we are not so smart we don't we we don't

know

the science of adaptation so

precisely uh to the point that uh 10

minutes here uh are going to make a

difference one repetition there is going

to make a difference I always say that

training and coaching is always going to

be an art yeah but you have more

possibilities of getting it right uh the

more science you implement in your

program the more your program is uh

based on on sound scientific evidence in

that case you have more possibilities of

of getting it right but you still have

to be an artist and good coaches are

artists in the same way that good

doctors are artists and good Architects

are artists and and uh any professional

who is excellent in their own job they

have this component of being more

creative than the rest and and being

more uh yeah having having better ideas

than the rest and maybe that could

naturally take us to this because I have

a little tight with these zones training

zones because I mean the body doesn't

know zones at least some of the zones

are quite well defined and I will have a

talk with Stephen and I think his

chapter is really good it for the first

time it convinced me of the of the need

of some of the zones but as you said

okay what if you let's say the

Discrimination between Zone one and zone

two is it arbitrary and likewise zone

four and five and would the body know

okay I go 89% I mean sometimes some of

these zones could have a very narrow

indication to an athlete that it's very

important that your heart rate is 94% of

Maximum instead of 92 and again within

what we know is biological variation and

would the body know how to respond to

this and even we don't know what is it

that actually stimulate Ecentric

hypertrophy of the heart is that to have

a specific high heart rate or is it just

to in the in some of the zones but I

still think that his chapter is elegant

and also this figure that you you chose

here because it both includes the

aerobic and also you could say uh the

anerobic Energy System the strength

training part and and specifically we

will focus on some of the transfer

effects from strength

training uh to to some of those um but

of course also as indicated to the right

there's a lot of overlap between uh the

zones and and you can um you can train

in even if you do training in at a lower

intensity it can still stimulate your VI

to Max I mean you don't need to have a

peak heart rate in order to be able to

perform so even if you are 1500 meter

Runner where you can say Peak aerobic

power is extremely important you can

still get training

benefits uh and and stimulate your your

vascular cardiovascular fitness by doing

lower intensity training and that is of

course why it's important to spread over

all of these Zone and mixing it

up exactly and and that that's that's

the reason why I chose this particular

figure Lars because of the idea of

overlapping between uh intensity SS on

the one hand and physiological

adaptations on on the other the way um

Sports physiology and also training

science has been taught over over the

years

uh sometimes leads to the to the

misunderstanding and the idea that if

you want to do the if you want to

achieve this you need to do that if you

want to achieve this you need to do that

um and and it's like in isolation they

they don't see the the athletes organism

as a as a whole and this figure I love

it because it shows that you can work on

the cardiovascular adaptations from Zone

one to zone six or even zone seven and

you can work on your peripheral muscular

adaptations between Zone one and zone

six and you can work on on buffering

capacity from Zone 3 4 to Zone 8 so you

there is no um there is no isolated

space in physiology there is no isolated

space in training you can achieve

several adaptations with the same

Training Method or the same training

Zone if you prefer and you can use the

same Zone to hit different physiological

targets so the same Zone might help you

develop several physiological

adaptations and the same adaptation can

be achieved by training in different

zones and that overlapping idea I think

it's something that is very important

for practitioners to understand instead

of

this

compartmentalized uh concept that we

often hear in um in in the in the

teaching of physiology and and also in

the in the teaching of U training

courses and and coaching courses one

thing that I would like to hear your

opinion about and I think that I will

challenge Steven not because I mean it's

his figure at least that figure has has

rejoined from the Norwegian Olympic educ

is this purial muscle adaptation which

indicate that it's the lower zones which

are more stimulating that the fire I see

that for a lot of parameters at least

per minute done you could argue that

okay because you can do a much more

higher volume in the lower zones when

you do so but I I would say that and and

also for the strength training that some

of the the muscular adaptations that you

can get from this very high intense

types of training in terms of let's say

sodium potassium pumps uh but maybe also

for calization and so on they are much

more potent in the higher zone so I

think that it's a little misleading with

this that that they should be more

stimulated by the lower intensity or how

do you see that yeah well even even the

graph can be criticized and and and and

the and the size of the of the diamonds

whether it should be wider here or

thinner there but you know in that that

the sodium pottassium pumps maybe maybe

you can include them in the uh in the

section of power and efficiency muscular

adaptations in the uh one two three four

in the fifth column there so you know

again

criticized it can be criticized but the

idea or the concept of it's in the title

you know overlapping of training

intensity effects on specific endurance

adaptations the idea of overlapping is

something that I that I really like from

this graph and that's mainly the reason

why I chose it no no and you can always

also discuss whether Zone a is should be

on I mean for the the anerobic it's a

matter of also of the time that you

spend there and I if you have uh when

you indicate that zone five is harder

than zone four I mean it's a matter of

how much time you you spend in in the

zone but let's and even even Lars um the

uh the squares that you added to the

left of the figure of aerobic and

anerobic that also can be criticized you

know that that could be over that was

more to explain that that that is how

they are defined that they an because of

course it starts earlier it already

starts when you surpass your your first

lactate threshold yeah and somebody

could somebody could misunderstand this

if if they don't get this idea of

overlapping physiological systems and

overlapping training zones they could

say oh it's it's only aerobic until Z5

and then it becomes anerobic after Z6 no

no no concept of overlapping applies to

everything so yeah yeah and it's also I

also have it a little bit tight with

this of colag IT anerobic training

because I mean it's specifically that of

course that you stimulate some of the

anerobic systems and uh energy provision

and so on but yeah but that's what I

like with with Steven's chapter I think

he explains it nicely and why where is

it there is a sharp kind of definition

but also even discriminating I see

lactate threshold to I mean it's a

difficult task to establish it and of

course that is also why you go back and

I always also think that Stephen would

say oh it's better that you don't I mean

can you have it very sharp and if you do

that and you use it as training

prescription to say okay you should be

specifically at this target then you

might have a chance of people being over

the Target and that they therefore would

so to say overload the system if they

did

so uh but you also chose this one to

focus and and maybe also because that is

something that has developed more and

more that strength training is not

longer only considerate for of of course

many endurance performances will be

determined at the End by an in spert or

the ability to do very intense I mean

cycling for example uh can be decided uh

in in in the Sprint up a hill uh where

the the most powerful but not even for

that but also you could say for Pure

endurance athletes marathon runners

where it's more of a continuous effort

strength training has become C of of the

base of it exactly that's that's why I

chose it Lars because um until about

yeah it's already been about 20 years I

would say um there was no scientific

evidence to to actually say well highly

trained athletes if they do strength

training they will get a benefit but

over the past 20 years and this was

already in the previous edition of the

book but I think it has become so

popular and so so important for

endurance athletes to um to understand

the potential benefits of strength

training that I decided to to uh select

this particular uh figure from from the

from chapter six um I think in the past

years we have learned a lot about the

potential benefits of uh strength

training not only in the gym also uh on

the field we can we can train our

strength

uh for endurance athletes without

necessarily getting in the gym there is

even recent evidence showing that simply

doing

jumps and and hooping can provide a lot

of benefits for for endurance athletes

so I like this graph because it very

nicely

summarizes um the potential mechanisms

by which strength training can benefit

endurance athletes for both as we can

see in the middle uh Square short

endurance short duration endurance which

arbitrarily was considered from 1 minute

to 15 minutes and also for long duration

endurance arbitrarily again from 15

minutes to several hours of of effort

and one of the examples that you

mentioned finishing with a Sprint is

shown below the short duration endurance

performance if you are strong stronger

and you can produce more um more force

or more power and you improve your rate

of force

development it's obvious that your

sprinting ability at the end of a

mustard uh event yeah is going to be

improved and therefore you might win not

because you are more endurant but

because you you can Sprint better than

your Rivals and end up uh winning the

race and then

uh there might be an effect also in

reduced fatigability and that's one

topic that uh in the past few years has

become very very popular the idea of

durability or fatigue

resistance and that is something that

can be achieved in part through uh

strength training for endurance athletes

so I think this is a very important

graph uh in chapter six of the book

designed by um per a

and uh TR

rest but I think that also at least one

of the things that I have when I do

coaching and planning is of course that

strength training I mean it has to be

something that you can include in your

training without compromising all of the

other elements so I mean if it is so

that because you're are doing strength

training uh you will not be able to have

the intensity in other parts you will be

sore and so on so of course

it's typically something that you used

in periodization so you have it more

still more in your program and so but I

mean I guess you should also think of it

as having it at least as something where

you maintain it also in the season uh

but I mean if it's let's say you are an

a tun Rider I mean it's very difficult

to maintain it in the periods where you

also have to have a weekly training

volume of 30 hours you do stage race es

and so on I mean of course you might

have to compromise the the keeping of it

and again it takes back to this having

this holistic part of it so I think uh

yeah and a periodize approach you need a

periodize approach to to your strength

training and and that's another part

where we have learned a lot in the past

few years on the uh on the interference

between strength and endurance training

so sometimes you might need to avoid

that strength training some other times

you might keep it but you we have

learned how to

separate uh within a day how to separate

the strength training from the endurance

training what to do first depending on

what you are trying to achieve uh what

nutritional uh strategies we might use

so that strength training might have a

lesser impact on your key endurance

training session etc etc so I think we

have learned a lot yeah and of course

will also be very highly specific let's

say that you are engaged in in rowing

where the weight doesn't mean anything

or you're skier and and you would like

to build up mus muscle mass you would

have one strategy whereas if you're a

runner and you just want to use the

strength training to improve your rate

of force development low of Che ability

but you do not want to have an increase

in muscle mass because any kilo you have

to move uh will will of course cost you

extra so so that will of course have to

have very different strategies if

depending on on the target of that and I

think that that both are possible I mean

you can gain weight with a with an a

sufficient nutrition and you can also

avoid it if you just do enough training

it's important for practitioners to

understand that uh strength training for

endurance athletes can be very very

simple I I usually say you don't have to

be the uh the smartest person in the gym

or the person doing the most original

exercises Etc it can be very very simple

you can do four four or five

exercises that

are they have to be well done yeah the

most important is actually to to choose

the right uh exercise I I mean for

movement specificity so if you are

Runner you should really think of okay

how do I actually stimulate the the

muscles of particular relevance if

you're cyclist I mean if you do knee

extension where versus leg extension the

transfer effect will probably be l from

the leg extension so that you

choose exercises that resembles the the

movement pattern or at least that

there's a big transfer effect yeah and

and a few years ago Ben ronad and myself

we wrote a paper a review paper uh

making recommendations for strength

training and separating the

recommendations for cyclists on the one

hand and the recommendations for runners

on the other hand yeah yeah yeah and

then of course it will be a continuous

if you do if let's say that you how

about you have worked a lot of with

swimmers I mean I guess that that could

also be of particular importance also of

course because it's it's down in the

domain where you will have a large

anerobic contribution in most of the

disciplines but also because with the

upper body it might be even more

important to have strength training how

much strength trainings do swimmers do

they are doing a lot at the moment uh

for for all kinds of reasons you you you

can focus on on power production for the

explosive parts of swimming which are

the starts and the turns uh you can do

other type of strength training for the

propulsive forces and to overcome the

resistance from uh from the water and

also you can do other type of strength

training uh simply for stability reasons

for body positioning in the water a lot

of core strength Etc so they at the

moment they are doing a lot of as a

general rule

the 50 me the sprinters of course they

are they are they are Sprint athletes so

they will do a lot but also for those

who do the let's say 1500 meters or the

Open Water swimmers they also do a lot

of strength train in the group I mostly

work with uh in the uh lead up to Tokyo

we were doing a strength

training every single day and sometimes

twice a day it might maybe it was uh

more power oriented in the in the

morning and then it would be more core

stability oriented in the

but we were doing a lot of a strength

training yeah yeah swiers

also new a very high volume in total

training oh yeah six six and a half

hours a day of training but then we when

we were where you could say okay I do

strength training on top of a large

volume and I mean how how much can you

tolerate and still uh recover from it

and I mean you know Elite athletes can

tolerate a lot of TR yeah they can

training otherwise they wouldn't be

elite athletes but sometime it is also a

matter of allowing your body to recover

and you could say okay if I need I mean

sometimes you can do the training but

it's also a matter if you are capable of

responding to it so let's say that you

do strength training too much or if you

don't allow to maybe in a period lower

some of the other types of training in

order to be able to respond to the

strength training so I mean I think

that's also something where uh that the

the the

clever practice in here can can can find

the balance to say okay not overdoing it

because a lot of practitioners might

think that the more training you do the

better but the idea is not to maximize

training the idea is to maximize

adaptation so if you can maximize

adaptation with five hours instead of

seven why do seven you will not recover

and you will not maximize the the the if

you can maximize with less go for Less I

think that should be the concluding uh

remark here because I think that would

be an excellent uh take-home

message uh yeah but there could be a lot

of more discussion and hopefully there

will follow more talks other chapters

and maybe we will will return on other

specific points in the book but um yeah

I enjoyed the talk very much inro so

thanks for that and of course thanks for

leading the book thank you for the

opportunity Lars