The REAL Cause of Insulin Resistance - It’s NOT Too Many Carbohydrates | Dr. Paul Saladino

Summary

In this insightful discussion, Dr. Paul Saladino shares his journey through various dietary approaches, from a strict carnivore diet to an animal-based diet incorporating carbohydrates like fruits and honey. He delves into the nuances of insulin resistance, the importance of quality animal products, and the impact of diet on health and performance. Saladino also explores the role of gut health, the benefits of raw dairy, and his personal transition to living in Costa Rica, emphasizing the significance of a joyful lifestyle in achieving overall well-being.

Takeaways

• 🥩 The carnivore diet, which consists strictly of animal-based foods, initially helped Paul improve his eczema and asthma but later caused electrolyte issues.
• 🍯 After incorporating honey and fruit into his diet, Paul experienced improvements in muscle cramping, heart palpitations, and testosterone levels, suggesting that insulin spikes post-meal are essential for mineral and electrolyte balance.
• 🚫 Paul's dietary changes have been met with criticism from the carnivore, ketogenic, and vegan communities, reflecting the controversy and polarization in nutritional debates.
• 🥦 Contrary to popular belief, there is little evidence to suggest that carbohydrates cause insulin resistance; instead, the quality and type of fats consumed may play a more significant role.
• 🌾 Modern diets high in linoleic acid, found in seed oils and corn/soy-fed animals, may contribute to insulin resistance and metabolic dysfunction due to cellular membrane and mitochondrial disruptions.
• 🥦 Paul emphasizes the importance of considering not just what animals eat but also their natural diet and the impact of their feed on the nutrient profile of the food they produce.
• 🧂 The choice of cooking oil matters; olive and avocado oils, while popular, are high in linoleic acid and can be problematic when oxidized, which is common in cooking.
• 🍓 Raw dairy products, such as milk and cheese, may offer health benefits, including improved gut health and reduced allergic reactions, compared to pasteurized dairy.
• 💊 Supplements like colostrum can be beneficial, containing immunologically active substances that may enhance cognitive function and extend lifespan.
• 🏋️‍♂️ Physical activity plays a significant role in how the body processes nutrients, with higher activity levels potentially benefiting from increased carbohydrate intake.
• 🌞 Lifestyle factors, including sun exposure, community, and outdoor activities, contribute to overall health and well-being, reflecting the importance of balance in diet and life.

Q & A

What dietary changes did Paul Saladino make, and why?

Paul Saladino transitioned from a carnivore diet to incorporating more carbohydrates, specifically fruit and honey, after experiencing electrolyte issues from long-term ketosis. He found that adding these elements improved his overall health, including muscle cramps, heart palpitations, and testosterone levels.

How did the carnivore and ketogenic communities react to Paul Saladino's dietary changes?

Both the carnivore and ketogenic communities were displeased with Paul Saladino's pivot towards including carbohydrates in his diet, as it contradicted their core beliefs about diet and health.

What is Paul Saladino's stance on the role of carbohydrates in insulin resistance?

Paul Saladino believes there is essentially zero evidence that carbohydrates cause insulin resistance. Instead, he suggests that other factors, such as the consumption of seed oils high in linoleic acid, may contribute to metabolic dysfunction and insulin resistance.

What was the impact of adding carbohydrates back to Paul Saladino's diet?

After adding carbohydrates in the form of fruit and honey, Paul Saladino experienced improvements in muscle cramps, heart palpitations, and his testosterone levels returned to normal. His blood work also showed lower fasting insulin, lower fasting blood glucose, and a lower hemoglobin A1c level.

How does Paul Saladino view the role of insulin in human health?

Paul Saladino considers insulin to be valuable in humans, with its postprandial spike being essential for health as it signals the kidneys to retain minerals and electrolytes, thus preventing their waste.

What is the 'rice diet' mentioned by Paul Saladino, and what was its observed effect on health?

The 'rice diet' refers to a high-carb, low-fat, and low-protein diet primarily consisting of white sugar and rice, as studied by physician Walter Kempner. It was observed to improve health conditions like diabetes and obesity in his patients, suggesting that even a diet high in carbohydrates can have health benefits.

What is Paul Saladino's perspective on the use of mouthwash before working out?

Paul Saladino advises against using mouthwash before working out because it can kill nitric oxide-producing bacteria in the mouth, which may lead to decreased muscle gains and reduced workout benefits.

Why did Paul Saladino move to Costa Rica?

Paul Saladino moved to Costa Rica to pursue a lifestyle that included more flow states, such as surfing, which he felt was missing in his life in Austin, Texas. He found that engaging in activities he was passionate about improved his overall productivity and well-being.

What are some of the challenges Paul Saladino faced when he first moved to Costa Rica?

Some challenges Paul Saladino faced included dealing with utilities and infrastructure that were less reliable than in the United States, such as power and internet outages, as well as navigating the process of setting up and maintaining a household in a new country.

How does Paul Saladino describe his daily routine in Costa Rica?

Paul Saladino's daily routine in Costa Rica typically involves waking up with the sunrise, surfing in the morning, having a breakfast consisting of fresh orange juice, local fruit, grass-fed meat, and raw milk, followed by work sessions and possibly an afternoon workout or another surf. He also enjoys the community and camaraderie that comes with living in a small coastal town.

What are Paul Saladino's thoughts on the role of fats in meat and its impact on taste and health?

Paul Saladino believes that the fat content in meat is crucial for both taste and health. He suggests that meat without sufficient fat can become boring and less satisfying, and he advocates for choosing ground beef with higher fat content, such as 80% lean (20% fat), for a more enjoyable eating experience.

What is Paul Saladino's view on the use of body care products?

Paul Saladino prefers to use minimal body care products and opts for natural alternatives when possible. For example, he uses white vinegar for laundry and baking soda for dishes. He avoids products with fragrances and synthetic chemicals, and he does not use soap on his body, toothpaste, or shampoo, believing that a simple rinse with water is sufficient.

What dietary advice does Paul Saladino give for those considering an animal-based diet?

Paul Saladino advises people considering an animal-based diet to ensure they are consuming enough carbohydrates, as many people tend to eat too few carbs and return to a low-carb or ketogenic state, which can cause issues. He suggests that even moderate activity requires more carbohydrates than people might think.

How does Paul Saladino approach skincare?

Paul Saladino takes a minimalist approach to skincare, believing that what you eat is more important than what you put on your skin. He does not use soap on his face and suggests that acne may be related to diet rather than cleanliness. He is developing a product called a 'Tallow face bomb' for skin care, indicating his preference for natural animal fats.

What are Paul Saladino's thoughts on the use of fluoride in toothpaste?

Paul Saladino is not a fan of fluoride and considers it harmful. He believes that tooth health is more about fat-soluble vitamins and a healthy diet rather than the use of fluoride in toothpaste.

What is Paul Saladino's perspective on the importance of community?

Paul Saladino values community and finds that living in Costa Rica has allowed him to build connections with like-minded individuals. He believes that community is an important aspect of life and contributes to his overall well-being.

What are Paul Saladino's dietary recommendations for someone who is insulin resistant?

Paul Saladino suggests that while a low-carb diet can be beneficial for some people when they are insulin resistant, it is not the carbohydrates themselves that cause insulin resistance. He believes that metabolic health can be improved without completely removing carbohydrates from the diet, and that focusing on reducing linoleic acid intake might be more beneficial.

How does Paul Saladino feel about the role of fats in our diet?

Paul Saladino emphasizes the importance of consuming healthy fats, particularly from animal sources like meat, organs, and dairy. He believes that these fats are crucial for health and that they should not be feared.

What does Paul Saladino think about the consumption of fish in the current context?

Paul Saladino is cautious about consuming fish due to concerns about heavy metals, microplastics, and other pollutants. He does not recommend making fish a major part of one's diet without being mindful of these potential contaminants.

How does Paul Saladino view the role of fructose in our diet?

While the transcript does not directly address fructose, Paul Saladino's general approach to diet suggests that he would advocate for consuming fructose in its natural form, such as in whole fruits, rather than in processed forms like high-fructose corn syrup.

What are Paul Saladino's thoughts on the use of supplements?

Paul Saladino is selective about the supplements he takes, focusing on those that provide nutrients that are difficult to obtain through diet alone, such as grass-fed colostrum. He does not believe in taking a large number of supplements and emphasizes the importance of a nutrient-dense diet.

Outlines

00:00

🥩 Diet Controversy and Personal Dietary Evolution

The speaker discusses the controversy surrounding different diets, particularly the carnivore diet, and his personal journey from being a carnivore advocate to incorporating more carbohydrates like honey and fruit into his diet. He explains how his initial adoption of the carnivore diet was due to health issues like eczema, which improved with the diet. However, he later experienced electrolyte imbalances and other health issues related to long-term ketosis, leading to his dietary changes.

05:02

🍏 Rethinking Carbohydrates and Insulin Resistance

The speaker challenges the common belief that carbohydrates cause insulin resistance. He shares his experience of reintroducing carbohydrates into his diet, which improved his health markers and overall well-being. He also addresses the idea that insulin itself is harmful, explaining that post-meal insulin spikes are essential for human health, helping the kidneys retain minerals and electrolytes. His blood work shows improvements in fasting insulin, blood glucose, and hemoglobin A1c levels after reintroducing carbs.

10:03

🚫 The Misconception of Carbohydrates Causing Insulin Resistance

The speaker refutes the idea that carbohydrates are responsible for insulin resistance. He explains that while a low-carb diet can be beneficial for those with broken metabolic machinery, it is not the carbohydrates themselves that cause the issue. The speaker suggests that the real problem lies in the consumption of omega-6 seed oils, which he believes contribute to insulin resistance and other health issues.

15:06

🌾 The Impact of Seed Oils on Insulin Resistance

The speaker delves into the impact of seed oils, particularly linoleic acid, on insulin resistance. He discusses the historical context of seed oils in human diets and how their overconsumption has led to an imbalance. He also touches on the potential cellular-level issues caused by the accumulation of linoleic acid in cell membranes and mitochondria, suggesting that this accumulation may contribute to metabolic dysfunction.

20:06

🧬 Cellular Membranes and Metabolic Health

The speaker explores the role of cellular membranes in metabolic health, focusing on how the composition of these membranes can affect insulin resistance. He discusses the importance of the balance of fats in the diet and how an overabundance of linoleic acid, found in seed oils, can lead to metabolic issues. The speaker also mentions the potential benefits of a low-fat diet in mobilizing polyunsaturated fats and the need for a balanced approach to macronutrient intake.

25:09

🍽️ Diet and Lifestyle Adjustments for Optimal Health

The speaker discusses the importance of dietary and lifestyle adjustments for achieving optimal health. He talks about his experience with reintroducing carbohydrates and the benefits he has noticed, such as improved muscle function and testosterone levels. He also addresses the controversy surrounding his dietary changes, as they go against popular trends in the carnivore and ketogenic communities.

30:10

🥑 The Problem with Avocado and Olive Oils

The speaker highlights issues with avocado and olive oils, which are often considered healthy but can be problematic due to their high linoleic acid content. He discusses the potential for these oils to be adulterated with seed oils and their susceptibility to oxidation, which can lead to health issues. The speaker suggests that consuming these oils may not be ideal for those seeking to improve their metabolic health.

35:11

🥩 The Importance of Animal Feed on Meat Quality

The speaker emphasizes the importance of what animals are fed and how it affects the quality and nutrient profile of the meat we consume. He discusses the benefits of grass-fed, grass-finished beef, which has lower levels of pesticides and toxins and higher levels of nutrients compared to corn-fed beef. The speaker also touches on the challenges of finding high-quality meat sources.

40:13

🍓 Incorporating Fruit and Honey into the Diet

The speaker talks about his decision to include fruit and honey in his diet, highlighting their benefits in providing carbohydrates and improving health outcomes. He discusses the importance of consuming a variety of plant foods, including fruits, and the potential for honey to improve insulin sensitivity and contribute to a healthy diet.

45:16

🏞️ Moving to Costa Rica for a Healthier Lifestyle

The speaker shares his personal story of moving to Costa Rica for a healthier lifestyle, focusing on the pursuit of flow states through activities like surfing. He discusses the benefits of living near the equator, the importance of community, and how his new environment has positively impacted his mental and physical well-being.

50:17

🌞 Embracing Sun, Surf, and a Simpler Life

The speaker describes his daily routine in Costa Rica, which involves waking up with the sunrise, surfing, and maintaining a simple diet with a focus on animal-based foods and seasonal fruits. He emphasizes the importance of enjoying a variety of natural foods and the benefits of an active, outdoor lifestyle.

55:18

🥩 Ground Beef and the Importance of Fat in the Diet

The speaker discusses his preference for ground beef in his diet, highlighting the importance of fat content for flavor and health. He shares tips for keeping ground beef interesting, such as adding cheese or raw cream, and emphasizes the benefits of animal fats for overall health.

00:19

🧼 Natural Alternatives for Body and Home Care

The speaker shares his approach to body and home care, which involves using natural alternatives like white vinegar for laundry and baking soda for dishes. He discusses the importance of avoiding fragrances and synthetic chemicals in personal care products and suggests simple, effective methods for maintaining cleanliness and health.

05:20

💑 Future Aspirations of Family and Community

The speaker expresses his aspirations for the future, including getting married and raising a family in Costa Rica. He reflects on the importance of community and the benefits of living a simple, nature-oriented life, and shares his excitement for creating a family environment that aligns with his values.

Keywords

💡Carnivore Diet

The carnivore diet is an eating plan that consists solely of animal-based foods, excluding all plant-based foods. In the video, it's mentioned that the speaker initially followed this diet due to its perceived benefits for his eczema and asthma. However, he later experienced electrolyte issues, which led to a reevaluation of his dietary choices.

💡Ketogenic Diet

A ketogenic diet, or keto diet, is a high-fat, adequate-protein, low-carbohydrate diet that aims to shift the body's metabolism from burning carbohydrates to fats. The speaker discusses his journey with the ketogenic diet and how it initially helped with his autoimmune conditions but later caused other health issues, leading to his pivot away from it.

💡Electrolyte Imbalance

Electrolyte imbalance refers to a condition where the body's levels of electrolytes, such as sodium, potassium, and magnesium, are not within their normal ranges. The speaker mentions experiencing muscle cramping and heart palpitations, which he attributes to an electrolyte insufficiency caused by his long-term ketosis.

💡Insulin Resistance

Insulin resistance is a condition in which the body's cells do not respond properly to the hormone insulin, leading to high blood sugar levels. The video discusses the misconception that carbohydrates cause insulin resistance, which the speaker argues is not the case, and that the real issue lies with other dietary factors.

💡Linoleic Acid

Linoleic acid is an omega-6 fatty acid that is essential in the human diet but can become problematic when consumed in excessive amounts. The speaker posits that linoleic acid, found in high concentrations in seed oils, contributes to metabolic dysfunction and insulin resistance.

💡Omega-6 Fatty Acids

Omega-6 fatty acids are polyunsaturated fats that, while necessary for health, can cause inflammation when consumed in excess compared to omega-3 fatty acids. The video emphasizes the overconsumption of omega-6 fatty acids, particularly in the form of linoleic acid, and its potential negative health effects.

💡Mead Acid

Mead acid is a biomarker for essential fatty acid deficiency, indicating how the body is metabolizing fats. The speaker suggests that very low-fat diets, like the rice diet mentioned, could lead to fatty acid deficiencies and metabolic changes, as indicated by low levels of mead acid.

💡Adipose Tissue

Adipose tissue, or body fat, plays a crucial role in energy storage and hormone production. The speaker discusses how broken adipose tissue, resulting from the accumulation of linoleic acid, can lead to the release of inflammatory mediators and contribute to insulin resistance.

💡Cardiolipin

Cardiolipin is a phospholipid that is a major component of the inner mitochondrial membrane. The video suggests that an excess of linoleic acid incorporated into cardiolipin may disrupt mitochondrial function, potentially contributing to the development of insulin resistance.

💡Fatty Acid Deficiency

Fatty acid deficiency refers to an inadequate intake or utilization of essential fatty acids, leading to various health issues. The speaker hypothesizes that the rice diet's极低 fat content might have mobilized stored polyunsaturated fats, potentially improving health outcomes by addressing a hidden fatty acid deficiency.

💡Dunnigan Familial Lipodystrophy

Dunnigan familial lipodystrophy is a rare genetic disorder characterized by the absence or severe reduction of subcutaneous fat, leading to insulin resistance and high levels of non-esterified fatty acids in the blood. The speaker uses this condition as an example to illustrate the connection between broken fat cells and systemic insulin resistance.

Highlights

Dr. Paul Saladino's dietary shift from a strict carnivore diet to incorporating carbohydrates, specifically honey and fruit, has improved his health outcomes, including muscle cramps, heart palpitations, and testosterone levels.

Contrary to popular belief, insulin is valuable for human health, and its postprandial spike is essential for the kidneys to retain minerals and electrolytes.

Dr. Saladino experienced electrolyte issues due to long-term ketosis, which were resolved by reintroducing carbohydrates into his diet.

The ketogenic community's belief that insulin is harmful and causes insulin resistance is not supported by evidence, according to Dr. Saladino's research and experience.

Dr. Saladino's personal journey with eczema and asthma led him to explore different diets, resulting in the discovery that a carnivore diet initially improved his conditions.

Linoleic acid, found in high quantities in seed oils, is suggested as a potential cause of insulin resistance and metabolic dysfunction.

Dr. Saladino posits that the accumulation of linoleic acid in cell membranes may lead to mitochondrial dysfunction and contribute to insulin resistance.

The benefits of raw dairy, including its impact on gut health and immune system, are highlighted as a positive addition to Dr. Saladino's diet.

Pasteurized dairy products may cause adverse reactions for some individuals, whereas raw dairy could potentially improve gut flora and reduce allergic reactions.

Dr. Saladino's move to Costa Rica was motivated by a pursuit of a lifestyle that includes more flow states and a deeper connection with nature.

Community and social interaction are integral parts of life in Costa Rica, contributing to Dr. Saladino's overall well-being.

A diverse diet including meat, organs, fruit, honey, and raw dairy provides a comprehensive range of nutrients without the need for supplementation.

Dr. Saladino's daily routine in Costa Rica involves surfing, working, and maintaining an active lifestyle, which supports his health and productivity.

The quality of animal products, particularly grass-fed beef, is emphasized as important for nutrient content and avoiding toxins.

Dr. Saladino's dietary approach focuses on nutrient-dense foods, with an emphasis on the importance of animal fats for health.

The importance of considering an individual's activity level when determining carbohydrate intake is highlighted, with active individuals like Dr. Saladino benefiting from higher carbohydrate consumption.

Dr. Saladino's experience with the Hadza tribe provided insights into the importance of consuming nutrient-rich organs and the potential benefits of raw consumption for certain foods.

Transcripts

the carnivore Community hates me

the ketogenic Community hates me the

vegans don't like what I'm saying you

can give someone a diet of pure white

sugar and rice

and their diabetes gets better you get

less significantly less benefits from

working out if you use mouthwash before

you work out so like you want these

gaflora you want these bacteria in your

mouth that produce nitric oxide you just

want healthy populations there's

essentially zero evidence

that carbohydrates cause insulin

resistance

Paul it's great to have you back on the

show a lot has changed in a few years

since we chatted I'm excited to get into

all those nuances talk about what those

are and why the changes so I want to

start off by talking about the diet

piece this is probably the biggest one

the one that has the most controversy

around it and I'm excited to learn more

about it so you last time we chatted you

were carnivore your carnivore MD on

Instagram

I saw you recently changed that to Paul

saladino MD

so let's start there and talk about that

pivot yeah I mean I think probably

I was trying to remember exactly when we

talked last but

probably not too long after that I

started incorporating

carbohydrates into my diet so I started

incorporating

sugar

quote unquote from honey and fruit into

my diet and the reason for that was that

so my back story is that maybe four or

five years ago I was in my residency in

Seattle at the University of Washington

and I had really bad eczema and I had

had eczema for many years on and off

trying to figure out what was causing it

and was eating a pretty healthy

quote-unquote diet I was eating salads

olive oil nuts seeds fruit grass-fed

meat maybe a little liver here and there

mushrooms mushroom extracts things like

this and even with that healthy diet

having cut out processed foods I was

still getting eczema flare-ups to the

point that the eczema got really bad

and I thought okay I gotta figure this

out my immune system is still not

healthy even if it's just a skin rash it

means to me there's some sort of chronic

immune activation going on below the

surface and I didn't want that so that

was the beginning of carnivore which was

strictly an animal food diet so animal

meat animal organs animal fat and salt

basically for a year and a half or so

that was really interesting to me

because when you do that

it triggers a whole bunch of people

because in the nutrition space as we

talked about last time people believe

that red meat is one of the maybe

forbidden foods for humans something

that we could maybe eat a little bit of

from time to time or we shouldn't eat at

all if you listen to Harvard

um and that the fat that comes with it

the the saturated fat that comes with it

is not good for humans for a variety of

reasons according to the mainstream

narrative raises your LDL cholesterol

and yet when I did that I felt better

and my Eczema got better

and I thought well this is something to

this and then you find or I found this

community of people many of which had

had similar sort of autoimmune diseases

that got better when they cut certain

foods out of their diet a lot of them

are cutting Foods out that many people

consider to be healthy things like kale

or broccoli or spinach or oatmeal or

beans or lentils or couscous or grains

and there's something interesting here

and as a physician

I'd always been interested in what was

causing illness and what were the big

movers now fast forward my journey a

year and a half

long-term ketosis resulted in some

electrolyte issues for me so this is

part of the interesting Journey right

The Humbling piece of it all

that the eczema gets better the

autoimmune condition gets better really

it was eczema and Asthma this whole

atopic cluster

but then I get all these issues with

ketosis who are presumably related to

ketosis and this is electrolyte

insufficiency leading to muscle cramping

when I'm climbing in a rock gym

palpitations when I'm sleeping trouble

sleeping in general I was waking up with

hypnagogic jerks which are when you fall

asleep and you feel like you're falling

and you weight yourself out of sleep

it's pretty pretty horrible and that's

likely related to a magnesium deficiency

so what I learned in the process was

that

though the ketogenic Community I think

is really well intentioned a lot of the

ideas around it are not fully formed

there's this idea that insulin is bad

for humans and I think the ketogenic

Community leans hard on this idea of

insulin-induced insulin resistance and I

see people this is an idea that really

hasn't gone away there's some pretty

well-known influencers now who are also

still talking about blood sugar spikes

and how you don't want blood sugar

spikes and I think okay this is

interesting because that's exactly what

you don't have on a carnivore diet your

continuous blood glucose monitor is

about as flat as it can be but it leads

to pretty big problems for people so

what I realized leading back to that

point and looking at the literature was

that oh insulin is valuable in humans

and this post-brandial after we eat

insulin spike is essential for human

health because it actually signals to

the kidneys to absorb to hold on to all

of these minerals and electrolytes that

people on low carb diets are just

wasting and that in the ketogenic

Community you see people just taking

massive amounts of electrolytes massive

amounts of salt

to try and hold on to those so that was

sort of my learning and then adding the

carbohydrates back to my diet not all

carbohydrates so not things like grains

not beans I didn't really even do roots

or many complex carbs it's mostly just

fruit and honey things have gone a lot

better over the last three years since

then so no more muscle cramps no more

heart palpitations testosterone back to

normal and I show my blood work all the

time on my podcast my total testosterone

is between seven and eight hundred with

like a really good sex hormone binding

globulin level which was actually

elevated on a ketogenic diet and comes

down when you add carbohydrates so all

sorts of things get better when you add

carbohydrates back and so now

the carnivore Community hates me

the ketogenic Community hates me the

vegans don't like what I'm saying and uh

yeah it's it's great because it means a

lot of good conversations come out of it

well there's a lot of nuance to what you

just share there and I want to really

get in there and and fish it out

and I'd like to start with the

electrolyte piece it sounds like that

was a big part of you hitting your wall

and making a dietary change at that

point before you started to really up

the carbs and include the honey

did you think about her did you try

including more electrolytes through a

product like element thinking of going

the supplement route before the food oh

I tried it it doesn't work you don't

hold on to it without that insulin

signal to the kidney you just waste it

so I was supplementing magnesium I was

supplementing potassium I was

supplementing sodium it's just sort of

like a losing bottle and then

I added carbohydrates from fruit fruit

juice and honey

and moderate amounts of sodium in sea

salt are enough to hang on to all the

minerals so you don't waste calcium

magnesium sodium chloride and other

things you don't we just don't waste

them when you have an insulin signal

these blood glucose spikes are actually

beneficial and they're part of normal

human physiology and as I suggested

earlier nor do they lead to any degree

of insulin resistance or human pathology

this is I would say a signal of

abundance for our bodies as humans and

you can see that in my blood work my

fasting insulin is lower now than it was

when I was a carnivore

My fasting blood glucose is lower

and my hemoglobin A1c is also lower a

really interesting piece of this for me

as you talk about the insulin is the

fact that it seems like this diet worked

for you for say about a year and a half

and a lot of people coming to a keto

diet carnivore diet and are getting

these healing benefits lowering the

insulin

are you open to the idea that when

somebody's metabolically unhealthy

coming to a diet like the carnivore diet

for a period of time bringing that

insulin back down and getting

metabolically healthy and then getting

to a point like where you're at now

where you're including more carbs

is there any validity in that because

we see that working with a lot of people

and you talked about this a lot of the

quote unquote experts are talking about

using the ketogenic diet to heal insulin

resistance and it is working for people

so

is it just the fact that it's only

working for a certain period of time

because people are so metabolically

unhealthy and then they need to Pivot

so there's there's an important piece

here to really flesh out

there's essentially zero evidence

that carbohydrates cause insulin

resistance

removing carbohydrates is valuable for

some people when they are insulin

resistant because the process of insulin

resistance that pathology leads to

broken metabolic Machinery so you can't

really use carbohydrates well when

you're insulin resistant when you're

metabolically unwell but the

carbohydrates didn't get you there

so yes it totally makes sense and there

is a utility to say you've got you know

a car that runs on gasoline and Electric

and the car gets broken and it can't use

gasoline anymore very well like yeah

there's a there's a point to just like

okay let it use electric for a little

while until you can fix the gasoline

engine but the gasoline didn't break the

gasoline engine I'm sort of stretching

this metaphor like the carbohydrates

don't cause insulin resistance

right they just are not processed well

by Broken metabolic Machinery so you can

remove them the other thing to

understand is that you can also just fix

your metabolic

Health without completely removing the

carbohydrates in the first place you can

just lower the carbohydrates again your

engine is not going to run on these very

well your metabolic Machinery is broken

and we can talk about why I think people

become insulin resistant because that is

probably at the center of our modern

epidemic of chronic disease and it's not

carbohydrates it's just not even I mean

there's Nuance there but it's not

carbohydrates it's not things like fruit

it's not things like honey

it's probably not even things like white

potatoes those don't make people insulin

resistant even though I'm not a fan of

them it's something else

so I think that if you have a broken

metabolic Machinery yeah you can lower

it I think people actually do better

with

50 90 grams of carbohydrates rather than

zero grams of carbohydrates per day if

they want to get low carb or moderate

carbs but I think yeah there's there's

some

time period in which you can lower that

and then

increase it eventually

and do better

I think people run into trouble

when they start to believe

that the carbohydrates are the problem

and

it's not the removal of carbohydrates

that really fixes the insulin resistance

so that that is something I would

disagree with Ruben carbohydrates

doesn't fix insulin resistance

you're removing the the fuel that can't

be burned

right but the insulin resistance is more

to Cellular membrane level the

mitochondrial membrane level and that

gets fixed over time when you eliminate

I think it's the omega-6 seed oils the

omega-6 polyunsaturated oils that are

the problem there that takes a little

more time to change out so there's ways

to accelerate that perhaps as well but

that's that's the perspective that I

have on it

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fascinating I want to take some time and

really get into it and you left us

hanging for a while there and then got

into it and I really want to get into

the Nuance so it's not the carbs that

are causing insulin resistance you've

touched on it but let's get into the

physiology of why these seed oils

what I'm hearing from you are these are

at the root of insulin resistance do you

know who Walter Kempner is no I don't so

he's an interesting fellow kind of a

controversial guy from the 1940s and

1950s maybe the 1960s

he's a physician who did a bunch of

studies with diabetics people that were

morbidly obese morbidly obese we're

talking hundreds of pounds obesity

if your team wants to find like images

you can see the study so he has this

thing called the rice diet

and in the 1950s and 1960s he put people

on a very very high carb very low fat

very low protein diet it was essentially

white sugar so sucrose

and white rice was the majority of the

diet

and they got better

they lost I mean some people went from

like literally being round to being thin

their diabetes got better so he fixed

diabetes with a very high carb very low

fat very low protein diet and it was by

necessity it was a low protein because

it was all carbohydrates

and the problem is that the human brain

doesn't want to do this like so he's

controversial because in order to get

his patients to do this he had to like

he had to do some crazy things to cajole

them and so not condoning his

experiments but the science is is

interesting and what it says about human

physiology to me is is very compelling

that you can give someone a diet of pure

white sugar and rice

and their diabetes gets better

why is your diabetes get better and this

is not even short-term this is long term

so that in the span of I think it was

four to six months he could then

liberalize these people's diets and

their diabetes did not return so this is

really interesting to me and I think it

kind of ties into the seed oil piece

and I'm not suggesting that this is a

a reasonable therapy for people because

when we know about human physiology in

the human brain

is that if you try to push any of the

macros too far our brain really Rebels

humans seem to be able to lose weight by

cutting carbohydrates or cutting fat if

you cut both of them together you have

what's called rabbit starvation

and you can lose a lot of weight very

quickly but it's very stressful on the

body hormonally

if you cut carbohydrates you have a

ketogenic diet if you cut fat you have a

low fat diet and if you look at the

trials head to head of low-fat or low

carb they both have about the same

amount of weight loss so there's some

contention but it doesn't really look

like a ketogenic diet is magical for

weight loss it's a little like a low-fat

diet is magical for weight loss relative

to keto they both work

but when you cut both

when you cut the the fat really really

low that's interesting to me

and this is what happened in the rice

diet and they the fat was so low that

these prob people were probably becoming

fatty acid deficient and there's a fatty

acid that you can measure in the human

blood it's called Mead acid m-e-a-d and

that's an indication of fatty acid

deficiency essential quote unquote fatty

acid deficiency

and so the hypothesis is that one of the

reasons this diet might have worked is

because when you restrict fat that much

the cell has to turn over those cell

membranes in a different way

and that probably causes a lot of these

polyunsaturated fats that are stuck in

the cell membranes to become mobilized

and turn over

the human body doesn't make

polyunsaturated fats but if you feed

someone carbohydrates the human body can

make saturated fats and model

unsaturated fats but this is essentially

an accelerated way to get rid of what

were potentially excess polyunsaturated

fatty acids in these people cell

membranes again I don't think this is a

good therapy for humans because it's so

hard on the brain humans don't want to

do this we sort of gravitate toward like

a third fat third carbohydrates and

maybe a third protein depending how

you're looking at it maybe a little less

if you're doing grams or calories but

there's some balance of those things

that kind of is what our body tends to

if you go too low fat your body will

Rebel and you know if you go too low

carb your body's like I want some

carbohydrates so the indication here is

there's something going on in these cell

membranes and there's a massive shift

that happens in the cell membrane when

you get very very low fat and I think

that's having to do with this turnover

of these omega-6 fatty acids so there's

a couple of ways to do this without

going solo fat you can also just get

them out of your diet

like extremely intentionally and then do

more fats that are saturated in their

place and so this is the part where it

gets a little bit cumbersome for people

to think about but I think that you can

get similar results by just having a low

linoleic acid diet so let's back up for

a moment talk about linoleic acid

omega-6 which means that six carbons

from the end of the molecule is the

first double bond it's an 18 carbon

molecule it's polyunsaturated which

means it has multiple double bonds

and there's a small amount in ruminant

fat so things like cows or goats or

bison or lamb sheep deer small amount

one to two percent

but animals like humans or pigs or

chickens that are monogastric accumulate

linoleic acid so the more of this fatty

acid we eat the more we store we don't

have a way to get rid of it like cows do

cows can transform it

so it where do we find linoleic acid in

the human diet we find it in chickens

and pigs that are fed corn and soy so

evolutionarily inappropriate diets

and you find it in nuts and seeds

plant foods and we have a massive input

of this linoleic acid into the human

diet now because we're feeding our

animals corn and soy things that they've

never eaten historically and all of our

processed food

is combined is added with these seed

oils things like corn canola sunflower

safflower soybean grape seed these are

all seed oils and they contain between

25 and 65 percent linoleic acid

so what you have I think is an

evolutionarily inconsistent amount of

linoleic acid coming into the human diet

and just like pigs just like chickens

when we eat corn and soy when we eat

Foods when we eat seed oils that have a

lot of this linoleic acid we store it

and I think that over time it

accumulates in our cell membranes and in

the membranes of a mitochondria these

little powerhouses in the cell and

causes problems and we can get into how

it might cause problems at the cellular

level if you want but that's kind of the

the 15 000 foot perspective that we have

this

this fatty acid that is in our food

supply historically but when we are

living

in a quote naturalistic way in the

forest in the jungle there's really very

limited access to foods that are high in

this it's very hard to get the amount of

seeds that you would get even in three

to five tablespoons of seed oils so I've

done some content about this

you look at corn oil for instance or

rice bran oil is an even better example

Chipotle very very popular and I went to

Chipotle and I asked what do you cook

your food and they said rice bran oil so

it's the oil extracted from the bran of

the rice

okay they put three to five tablespoons

of rice bran oil into a bowl like a

burrito bowl or a burrito with the rice

and the beans and the meat that are

cooking in there

to get three to five tablespoons of rice

bran oil you'd have to eat something

like three to four pounds of rice

so something that humans would never

ever do right it's the same with

sunflower seeds sunflower seed oil is in

almost everything soybean oil is very

common corn oil to get three to five

tablespoons of corn oil you have to eat

somewhere between 60 and 75 ears of corn

so you can see here that we have now

even if we were eating an occasional

sunflower seed from a sunflower plant

because we're starving as humans

historically or we're eating a little

bit of rice and getting the oil from the

brand or we're eating some corn in

Native American population

we're never going to get anywhere close

to the amount of linoleic acid coming

into our bodies in 2023 and really this

amount has been increasing massively

over the last 100 to 110 years in the

human diet so I think it's a very

interesting thing to see okay little egg

acid is just massively increased in our

diets

it gets in our cell membranes it gets

stuck there and then it causes things to

kind of shift in a negative way

metabolically does that make sense yeah

a lot there I want to dig into so just

to make sure I have this cracked when it

comes to our metabolic health and

insulin resistance you're saying the

root of that is this linoleic acid

that's getting taken up because we're

consuming too much of it primarily

through seed oils

they're becoming part of the cell

membranes and they're for lack of a

better term gunking things up which I

want to get into what's happening there

in a few minutes

but before I do I want to be clear on

linoleic acid it sounds like there's a

little bit within animal products is

that true yeah okay small amount so it's

not like we're looking to totally

eliminate it it's just about the ratio

it's way off we're getting way too much

way way too much and

you can look at the amount of calories

from linoleic acid in your diet you can

even do something like chronometer

and if I put my diet into chronometer

you can see how many calories you're

getting and all the breakdown of the

micronutrients it'll tell you how many

percent of your calories are coming from

linoleic acid are coming from omega-6

which is mostly linoleic acid

and when I do that it's usually below

two percent of my daily calories the

average American is probably upwards of

10 to 12 percent are there daily

calories maybe even 15 of your calories

are from linoleic acid so it's it's easy

to measure and if you look at one of

those programs you can see but it's

there's a difference and if you look at

hunter-gatherer populations

this has been studied it's it's never

more than like two and a half percent of

their calories from an oleic acid that

just doesn't exist in nature it doesn't

exist The Only Exception might be

something like the koi son in Botswana

when they eat the mangongo nuts but you

can also see that when they eat the

nuts during that season they also

become more fat so it's like it's it's

the 100 gatherer population that in the

last 30 to 40 years that they've been

studied is doing this Behavior where

they're eating a huge amount of nuts but

they're probably eating the nuts because

their hunting lands are being encroached

on they can't hunt animals and it's one

of their survival foods and you can see

that they're getting more than oleic

acid than other traditional

hunter-gatherer populations but when

they do that their metabolic indices at

least ostensibly seem to suffer but you

look at populations like the hadza who I

visited in Tanzania

they're not getting linoleic acid from

anything except animal fat they're not

eating any seeds unless they're starving

they're obviously not eating any seed

oils they're not eating any chickens or

pigs that are fed corn and soy so it's

very rare in nature

all right well let's continue the story

so we know linoleic acid is getting

incorporated into cell membranes gunking

up the cell

let's talk about now the physiology of

how that leads to insulin resistance

there's probably a couple of ways

so most people would agree that insulin

resistance is caused by Broken fat cells

so it's the adipose tissue I believe

that initiates insulin resistance in the

periphery at the liver and at the muscle

primarily but everywhere really

and the way that that happens

is because of these lipokines these

signals that are sent out from the fat

cells when the fat cells are broken so

the fat cells are very smart we think of

fat as just like a bag of fat but our

fat cells have nuclei they have DNA they

have mitochondria and they release

signals to the rest of the body

and so what appears to happen is that

when you stuff the fat cells first with

too much linoleic acid they can't divide

they just get bigger and bigger and

bigger this is hypertrophy versus

hyperplasia so hyperplasia is when a

tissue divides and you get more cells

hypertrophy is when one cell just gets

very big like you think of hypertrophy

like a like a bodybuilder gets a big

bicep but your fat cell just gets really

big

and so there's lots of evidence that

these products of linoleic acid

breakdown which are unique to linoleic

acid and don't come from anywhere but

linoleic acid things like 4-H and E four

hydroxy known and all and others are

like intimately connected with breaking

fat cell division there's articles that

have that exact title you know 4-H and E

leads to Fat cell dysplasia so you get

these big ballooning fat cells because

of these products of linoleic acid

breakdown for hne and others

and then the fat cells can't divide like

they're supposed to it kind of breaks

their normal cell division and they

start leaking inflammatory mediators

they leak fat signals to the periphery

they leak lipokines and then you get

essentially increased levels of fat in

the blood

and you see this in a lot of conditions

where you have non-esterified fatty

acids in the blood

and that signals to the muscles to

become insulin resistant and this is

similar in some ways to what happens

when you donate carbohydrates because

when you don't eat carbohydrates you

have more non-sterified fatty acids in

the blood the difference is that you

don't have broken fat cells on the back

end you just have fat cells that are

signaling to the muscles hey don't take

up glucose because we're trying to

conserve the glucose for the brain the

testicles the ovaries the adrenals

it's like this physiologic insulin

resistance but in pathologic insulin

resistance you have these fat cells that

are doing this all the time

and an insulin signal can't turn that

off

so insulin is not necessarily anabolic

it's anti-catabolic so insulin is meant

to signal to those fat cells to stop

releasing these non-acertified fatty

acids but when they become insulin

resistant when the fat cells become

insulin resistant they they just release

these things all the time

all the time they're just spewing out

these mediators saying be insulin

resistant be insulin resistant to the

liver to the muscles and so your muscles

become insulin resistant your liver

becomes insulin resistant and that leads

to all sorts of problems and that is

sort of the Genesis of what we see in

metabolic dysfunction diabetes

pre-diabetes

at a deeper cellular level people also

believe that these not these these

linoleic acid molecules become

incorporated into something called

cardiolipan in the mitochondrial wall

and this may have to do with why the fat

cells get broken at the level of the

mitochondria that these mitochondria

have these I think there's four tails on

a cardiolipine molecule could be three

but I think it's four and they have

these fatty acids on on their tails and

they're at the curves of these inner

mitochondrial membrane these cristae and

when they get overly populated with

linoleic acid it probably creates

changes in the way the mitochondrial

membrane works and that may cause

mitochondrial dysfunction so ultimately

it looks like excess linoleic acid is

causing changes in cellular signaling

leading to Broken fat cells and that

leads to inappropriate signals to the

rest of the body and we have good models

of this happening there's actually a

condition called Dunnigan familial

lipodystrophy and it's a monogenic

condition of insulin resistance so it's

monogenic it's one gene it's a gene

called lmna and these people have

insulin resistance because of one gene

mutation and it causes basically they're

they look very lean but they have tons

of visceral adipose tissue and they're

non-esterified fatty acids are through

the roof because they're just spewing

out all these mediators from their fat

cells into the blood and they get

profound insulin resistance and with

that they also get accelerated

atherosclerosis so accelerated

cardiovascular disease interestingly

people with Donegan familial

lipodystrophy don't have elevated LDL

they just have profound insulin

resistance and they get aggressive

cardiovascular disease

all right so putting this whole puzzle

together coming back to the ketogenic

diet lowering carbs lowering insulin

we know that this does work but again

coming back to what you said before

this isn't getting to the root of the

problem it's a workaround

so we're not denying that that can be a

workaround and you can use that as a

tool but what you're talking about here

changing up the cell membranes getting

the proper fat in that's getting to the

root exactly

exactly

so we know seed oils are a big part of

the problem here we know that animal

products contain a little bit of this

linoleic acid but not enough that it's

actually an issue

what about oils like coconut oil avocado

oil

olive oil ones that get a pass in the

health and wellness space as being good

quality oils

how do they fit on this spectrum

yeah so this is really interesting so

you can really just make a continuum

of the amount of linoleic acid in any

oil so butter tallow one to two percent

coconut oil

two percent

you see a big jump when you go to

avocado and Olive and it can be anywhere

from eight to twenty percent linoleic

acid in both of those

so some olive oil is eight percent some

olive oil is twenty percent

about the same for avocado It generally

ends up in the 12 to 14 percent linoleic

acid range for those oils

they're better than seed oils because

they're not refined bleached and

deodorized so to get oil out of a corn

granule right you have to crush it and

squeeze it and heat it and extract it

and use hexane and bleaching agents to

get oil out of Olives you just press

them I mean you can do it on your

counter you can just smash it all in

your hand and you'll get olive oil in

your hand

the problem with avocado and Olive

is not the way they're prepared the

problem is

twofold in my opinion

the first being the most problematic

piece which is that they're often

adulterated because these are more

expensive oils that are becoming more in

Vogue if you look at the literature

there's clear evidence that both avocado

and Olive

more than 50 of the time are caught with

seed oils and very often their peroxide

values which means their oxidation

levels of the oils the fatty acids in

there are higher than preferred meaning

that they're they're old

so when you look at a fat you have

saturated fats monounsaturated fats and

polyunsaturated fats

polyunsaturated fats are the most likely

to oxidize they're the least stable the

more double bonds the more unstable a

molecule is

so people may not know this but omega-3

fatty acids are the least stable of any

fatty acid because they have so many

double bonds so I think that humans

benefit from omega-3 fatty acids in

foods

but I'm not a fan of any sort of omega-3

fatty acid taken as an extraction and

some people will say but I have this

bottle of fish oil and it's a bottle

that's open to the air it's like you

cannot have a bottle of fish oil open to

the air that's massively oxidized that's

just not it it's just it's too fragile

you can't do that even if you put it in

a capsule it's fragile enough that it's

going to be highly oxidized so if you

want to get omega-3 from fish that's

fine I think there's plenty of Omega-3

for humans and things like egg yolks

animal fats even Tallow like beef fat

has plenty of Omega-3 that's a whole

separate conversation

so omega-6 this linoleic acid returning

to that it's going to oxidize quite a

bit that's a problem for humans in a big

way so you're going to get oxidation of

olive oil you're going to get oxidation

of avocado theoretically if you know

people in Italy and you're there when

they're pressing the olive oil and those

are organic olives and you're not

heating it and you're packaging it in

glass

it's probably pretty benign for humans

but again I think that there is some

argument to be made that if someone is

metabolically unwell

and you want to be metabolically health

or healthier sooner

the the speed with which you approach

that metabolic health is probably

proportional to the amount of linoleic

acid in your diet or inversely

proportional if you see what I'm saying

kind of like the rice diet people I

think if someone is unwell

they would do well or they would be

better served by having the smallest

amount of linoleic acid possible in

their diet

right and cooking with olive oil is not

a good idea because you shouldn't heat

an oil that's that

fragile nor avocado but look I want to

make it I don't want it to be impossible

for people but ideally speaking

I think if someone is unwell you'd want

to have the smallest amount of linoleic

acid possible in your diet and avocado

and Olive are not great for that because

they have more and they're often cut

with seed oils they're often oxidized

and kind of rancid does that make sense

yeah it does I'm just trying to picture

somebody in a position like you talked

about that's trying to

I guess a good analogy would be doing an

oil change almost like you're doing an

oil change for your car where you're

trying to switch out the linoleic acid

in your cell membranes for better fats

so we know on one extreme we have the

rice and the sugar diet which is going

to be

changing that up the quickest

but say there's somebody that cuts out

the seed oils

they're eating Whole Foods they're

taking these other oils we're talking

about olive oil coconut oil avocado oil

oh and switching up to tallow

would it take

to change that up and to renew their

cell membranes

we don't have great data here there's

one paper

on the kinetics of changing the cell

membranes

and this suggests like two years

but I think that it can go faster if you

just clean my clinical observation

and suspicion is that it can go faster

if you do those things now I think most

people are going to get some

they're going to get some olive oil

they're going to get some avocado oil

and if you really

want to get like brass tacks here it

gets to a point where people it's not

popular because you have to look at

things like what is the chicken that

you're eating now chicken is generally

pretty lean so you're not going to get a

lot of fat from that chicken

poultry

lean duck sometimes more fatty and duck

is the same way if that duck is fed corn

and soy it's going to have more linoleic

acid in the membrane

pork is probably a problem for a lot of

people because if people are eating pork

they're usually eating fatty pork

particularly bacon and so if you really

wanted to do this quickly look bacon is

a meat it's way better than other

Foods in my opinion it's better than

processed foods better than seed oils

but bacon can have 15 linoleic acid in

it also and then you're getting a lot of

fat in that bacon because it's really

fatty so it's never popular when I talk

about getting rid of bacon from your

diet but I think that that can slow the

progression for some people because

linoleic acid comes from seed oils it

comes from you know olive oil avocado

oil

chicken and pork fed corn and soy which

is 99.5 percent of all chicken and pork

and that those are the major sources

even eggs unfortunately can have

significant amounts of linoleic acid if

the chickens are fed corn and soy

and this is sort of just this discordant

place that we find ourselves in in the

universe

in in our planet in 2023 it's hard to

find chickens that are fed bugs

right it's hard to find pigs that are

wild and not just fed corn and soy those

are the types of animals we would have

eaten you know if I'm in Tanzania and

we're hunting a bush pig with a hadza

animals not eating corn and soy if you

look at wild pigs the fatty tissue is

four to five percent linoleic acid the

same for chickens another vowel right

four to five percent but you put those

things in captivity and you feed them

grains 15 20 percent

it's crazy so again if someone is

metabolically healthy

maybe not a big deal

but if you're unwell if you're obese if

you're diabetic pre-diabetic and you

really want to get fast you want to get

healthy as fast as possible then I think

there is some

there is some benefit to thinking about

getting that little egg acid as low as

possible at least in the short term and

then it's kind of like the carbohydrates

right maybe you do a low linoleic acid

diet for four to six months and then you

can liberalize and have olive oil in

your salad or whatever I mean we can

talk about salad that's a whole separate

conversation you want to have some olive

oil fine you want to have some avocado

oil fine you want to eat some regular

chicken okay if you want to eat some

bacon in six months fine but it's just I

think that there is a way to approach

that level of balance more quickly and

it just depends how intentional and how

detailed people want to get does that

make sense yeah it does and I can

imagine for a lot of people that are

eating healthy and they want to make

steps in this direction like we're

talking about an area they'd really need

to address is eating out and that's

controversial of whether that could even

be considered healthy because there's so

many oils that are used in cooking that

we're unaware of even when we're at

these quote unquote healthier

restaurants and eating

eating you know meats and some of the

things you'd advocate for most of the

time if you go to a steakhouse

they're just going to cook that steak on

the grill

every once in a while because I do this

a lot when I go to cities

I'll go to restaurants and ask them

what they're cooking in and if they're

cooking chicken

on a grill on a griddle on like a flat

top they might be cooking chicken in

canola oil or sunflower oil if there's a

sauce

it's likely that sauce is going to have

some seed oils in it but if you're just

getting a steak the majority of the time

you're pretty darn safe steak is pretty

safe a lot of time it's cooked in

Tallow or it's just cooked

on a grill so I think that makes it that

makes it better in a lot of ways for

people it makes it easier to get that

you know one of the pieces of your work

that I really appreciate and you've

touched on this the fact that we can't

just look at what we're eating we have

to go all the way back to what that

animal is eating when we're having

proteins and animal products I find a

lot of the people in the carnivore world

are big on consuming meat and

aren't necessarily always concerned

about the quality of that meat and one

thing that comes up in your work time

and time again is to be aware of what

these animals are eating and how that

changes the nutrient profile of that

food for us

talk more about that in the importance

because again this is something that's

really Central to your message

yeah this is interesting so

as much as I don't want

this to be an impediment for people and

as much as I believe that

making any intentional change in your

diet is going to improve your health

I do think

I do hope that it's also valuable to

give people a North star

and to give them an ideal way for a diet

to look for them to shoot for

I don't want it to be unreachable

and so I think that that ideal situation

of diet is eating

plant foods that are organic

I predominantly eat fruit I eat

exclusively fruit but whatever plant

Foods people want to eat

those would be organic

the honey that I eat is glyphosate free

so it's from farms that are organic and

not near

any

place that's spraying glyphosate so

that's important to know about your

honey the milk I get is raw and again

this is all just the North Star if we

can create the ideal situation the milk

is raw

and hopefully those cows are fed grass

exclusively and hopefully those cows are

raised on

land that it doesn't isn't sprayed with

pesticides

and the meat and organs that I eat are

from grass-fed

grass-finished cows

so

as I mentioned earlier

the interesting thing about cows and

also bison or deer or elk or Antelope is

that these are ruminant animals and if

you feed a cow corn it's not really

going to increase the amount of linoleic

acid in the fatty tissue significantly

the problem as I see it with corn

finished cattle that's cattle that's

raised on grass and then finished the

last three to four months of its life on

grains

is it these animals then accumulate

everything that's in that corn

and that corn can be moldy that corn can

have microplastics because a lot of this

feed is low quality

and that corn almost certainly has

pesticides

so if you look at the muscle and fat

tissue of grass-fed grass-finished

animals

there are two things that you notice

grass-feding grass feeding grass

finishing animals leads to lower amounts

of pesticides and toxins in the meat

whether it's hormones whether it's

pharmaceutical drugs whether it's mold

toxins whether it's microplastics

glyphosate and there are some nutrients

that are significantly higher in that

type of meat so you're basically taking

a a cow

and that's an herbivore and you're

giving it its ideal diet which is more

nutrient-rich grass

something that humans can't eat by the

way we cannot eat grass toxic for humans

because of the amount of silica

so cows can take this grass and make it

into valuable meat and organs for humans

and you're replacing that in a

significant amount of the cattle grown

in the U.S or in the world with inferior

quality food

and anyone that's ever been to a nice

restaurant or is a foodie in any way

shape or form or likes good wine or good

chocolate or anything can appreciate

that quality matters

and the reason that quality matters is

if you like nice cars or whatever you

like right

the quality matters and so the nutrients

in a food are often reflected in The

Taste the complexity of the tastes and

that's that's significant so if you've

been to a really nice steakhouse and you

had grass-fed meat at a steakhouse which

isn't actually that it's not served that

often at steakhouses because it's leaner

but if you've had a really good

grass-fed steak or you've had a good

I don't know honey or good milk

you know that there's a difference in

quality when animals are fed what

they're supposed to be eating and that's

really a reflection I would say of the

nutrient profile

and then if you look at the literature

the absence of other harmful things in

these Foods I want to come back to your

diet as a whole at this point and the

way I remember it last time we talked

you were doing a carnivore diet you were

big on organ meats and you're big on

eating nose to tail

and the way I understand it now you've

included honey raw dairy

and a significant amount of fruit for

carbohydrates

in each of those categories there are

beyond the meat and and you're still

into organs too but in each of those

categories beyond the meat

the dairy the fruit the honey

talk about why you've chosen to include

each of those like is there specific

nutrients in each of those Realms going

back to your story as you shared it

before we know electrolytes was a

problem you ran into as as a carnivore

but why the diversity is it for flavor

is it for nutrients why why not just add

say fruit back in and keep it more

simple yeah so we can talk about all of

those things individually it's a great

question let's talk about raw dairy

we've talked a little bit about the

fruit and the honey but I'll talk about

raw dairy

so I feared Dairy I was fearful of dairy

for many years because I think that

pasteurized Dairy was a major allergen

for me growing up I grew up

in northern Virginia my father was a

physician my mom was a nurse so with my

asthma and eczema I was wildly over

medicated

and I think that pasteurized Dairy was a

problem for me and it wasn't until the

last few years that I understood why

this could potentially be

I came across a significant amount of

literature there's many many studies

showing benefits to unpasteurized Dairy

there are multiple observational studies

in children showing that kids who eat

raw dairy whether it's cheese milk

butter kefir which is fermented milk

some people say kefir

on or off the farm have lower rates of

asthma eczema allergies hay fever when

they're adults that's fascinating

and it's observational so correlation is

not causation but that's a pretty

striking finding that shows up

repeatedly

in studies and what we know about raw

milk is that when you heat milk that

comes out of a cow or a goat or a camel

whatever you want to milk it changes the

confirmation of many of the proteins in

that milk

and it changes the population of

bacteria in the milk many of which are

commensal and probably valuable and

impact the human gut in a positive way

protein specifically is found to be very

beneficial for humans but especially

beneficial and probably most beneficial

when it's undenatured

anything above 147 degrees or 150

degrees Fahrenheit seems to change the

conformation of the whey protein and it

looks like many of these immunologic

benefits are lost

so that's a pretty big deal

so I thought okay

if this food can affect my immune system

in a positive way

potentially affects my gut in a positive

way and I'll talk about that in a moment

and it's getting me a source of

bioavailable calcium and more

animal-based nutrients K2

menaquinone choline Etc it's something I

want to have in my diet and for people

that drink raw milk you know it's

delicious

and what I found was that when I

reincorporated raw dairy first as

Parmigiano-Reggiano cheese and then it's

raw milk

I I wasn't nearly as lactose intolerant

as I expected to be and I've later

learned that most of these raw milks

contain bacteria that can populate the

human gut and then produce this lactase

enzyme even if you've lost it

it seems that the A1 casein protein

which is another protein in milk is only

really allergenic for humans when it's

pasteurized again this conformational

changes in the proteins of milk

that happened a lot with cooking

so when I Incorporated raw milk I didn't

have any recurrence of eczema I felt

better and I was aware that I was

getting like all these interesting

nutrients and I think my gut felt even

better than it did before

subjectively and this is just my

experience I felt like when I was

surfing I could surf longer I just I

don't know how to describe it it was

like I had I had more drive to Surf I

was more

driven to surf for longer amounts of

time

I didn't it wasn't that I was running

out of gas but I think that before this

is just my subjective experience take

from what you will I would go out in the

ocean I would surf two two and a half

hours sometimes three hours whereas

before I would just kind of after an

hour and a half I would just think ah

I'm done with this I'm kind of tired but

it just changed my subjective experience

would it change something for me and

again my gut felt better I think my poop

got better when I started adding raw

milk

The more I've learned about raw milk the

more people I've talked to I recently

went to a farm in California called raw

Farm the biggest raw dairy in the world

and the stories I heard from them that

people have told them what I heard in

Los Angeles when I was there at arawan

doing the Smoothie launch the first

animal-based smoothie at arawan

soy people came up to me and talked

about how raw milk had improved their

gut and fixed their gut

and this is so interesting because

in the space that I'm in as a physician

people who have gut issues that's been

the hardest thing to fix for them

we as humans are just bombarded our

whole life with things that are bad for

our gut Flora there's this trillions of

bacteria in our gut this whole another

alien organism that lives between your

mouth and your anus really

trillions of bacteria 10 to the 16th

bacteria more cells than you have in

your human body by a factor of three or

four who knows

and we're just changing the composition

of that Collective organism with

antibiotics with pesticides probably

with lectins defense chemicals and

plants

so then this interesting question is how

the heck do you rehabilitate that and

probiotics make sense but in my

experience they don't always work

sometimes they make it worse but raw

milk of all the things that I've seen

clinically raw milk is hands down the

best for people's guts and whether it's

raw milk or raw kefir fermented milk

those two things are incredibly valuable

for human guts in terms of

re-establishing healthy populations

in the gut and that just makes so much

sense to me intuitively and I don't know

if there's any published literature

we need to do some but there are studies

on raw milk and kids with respiratory

tract infections their studies on the

immunologic differences between raw and

pasteurized milk for mothers like I said

there's studies in kids with less

Allergy Asthma and eczema so there's a

ton of literature that raw milk is

beneficial for humans and affects our

immune system I've never seen anything

about the gut Flora but you can imagine

that raw milk is basically a probiotic

food it is the original probiotic food

and when you or I were hopefully

breastfeeding as children the first

thing that we had was this milk from our

mothers with thousands of different

types of organisms raw I mean breast

milk is not sterile just like raw cow's

milk it's not sterile it's just that

those skin Flora are what our bodies

expect even if it's from a mammal other

than your mom

it seems to be very beneficial for the

human gut in a lot of different ways so

that's really interesting that you can

in some ways for people that have this

may sound a little controversial but I

think it's it makes the point

for people that have issues with their

gut that have potentially negatively

changed the populations in their gut

in some ways you can return to

breastfeeding by getting raw good

quality mammalian milk into your diet

and that's really cool

all right there's a few nuances I want

to get into within the milk realm here

you've stated your obvious preference

for Raw versus pasteurized do you ever

have pasteurized milk though just more

as a calorie source as something

more as a neutral food

and say like you're OT and there's less

choices will you have it then or would

you ever bring it in the house I'm just

curious how

Stern you are on only having raw I'm

intense about it I don't do anything

with pasteurized in fact

I was recently in Greece

with a friend and we were on his boat

and

they said that we were drinking raw milk

but we weren't drinking raw milk and

that was really the the main change

um now again I'm in Greece so I'm eating

different foods but I'm basically eating

meat and fruit and honey

and I could tell that my body was

reacting differently to that that

pasteurized milk and again it's just my

anecdote but I was getting like a little

acne and it's funny I would get acne

like on my collarbone I would get acne

like here on my shoulder I never get

this right a little bit on my neck like

it's just it seems to be like an

autoimmune type of reaction I got these

multiple sort of like

pimples on my collarbone along my

collarbone and I think that was related

just observationally to this this

pasteurized milk so I've just learned

that my immune system doesn't like

pasteurized milk and I would rather not

drink milk than have something that's

pasteurized I don't think it works for

me got it so it has to be raw and

through you sharing your Dairy story

there we know you're into cow milk what

about other animals such as sheep and

goat oftentimes in the health and

wellness space people that don't do cow

for whatever reason

we'll include these other animal milks

and there's been talk that they're you

know

easier on the body for people that have

trouble with cow milk

so how do you feel say you're at Whole

Foods and and you're picking up some raw

cheese and you have an option of sheep

uh goat or cow well you grab all three

to have diversity or do you gravitate

more to one I like them all but I really

like goat milk I drink a lot of goat

milk here in Costa Rica

I would definitely drink sheep's milk I

don't have any problem with other

species milks if they're mammals I've

had camel milk before

I've heard there's horse milk I would

like to try horse milk

I think I would try any mammal's milk if

it's raw I think it's fine and when I'm

at Whole Foods usually if I can find a

raw sheep's milk cheese

I like that or raw goat cheese I tend to

prefer those but I don't think there's

anything really different people get

kind of hung up on the A1 versus A2 and

I think that's not as much of an issue

if it's unpasteurized

the tricky part about Whole Foods is

that Whole Foods doesn't do raw milk

because they did have an experience

where someone of their customers got

sick from a poorly produced raw milk

farm many years ago

thankfully Sprouts does raw milk

especially in California other stores

and Sprouts actually has some raw kefir

from this raw Farm throughout the

country if you can find that as well

how do you feel about colostrum from a

cow this is a popular supplement that

can be found I believe heart and soil

even has colostrum in one of the

products at least yeah is this something

you you include in your diet on a

regular basis when I can get it yeah

yeah I think that the colostrum so the

grass-fed colostrum from hardened soil

is one of the most common supplements

that I take because it's hard to get

fresh colostrum

I can often get fresh liver or fresh

heart in Costa Rica it's not too hard to

find fresh testicles

hardened soil makes desiccated organs so

if you if I can't find those or someone

can't find those organs you can get the

capsules which are freeze-dried but even

here in Costa Rica it's very hard for me

to find fresh colostrum so the

freeze-dried colostrum is pretty good

and I think that colostrum is incredibly

valuable for humans I mean there's

probably 250 studies on colostrum in the

medical literature

there's a peptide in colostrum called

colostranin

studied again for childhood respiratory

tract infections

colostrum has been studied in

Alzheimer's disease models it's been

studied in humans for cognitive decline

I mean it's it's a pretty powerful food

colostrum is the first milk from mammals

and it's quote milk it's mostly

immunoglobulins so it's a very highly

immunologically I would say active

substance and it's valuable it's really

cool I'm glad that people are beginning

to

use it I appreciate it because I think

that just like raw milk it's it's kind

of like a concentrated form of raw milk

all right so we have the colostrum

I know you're big on too obviously your

your company hardens oil again you're

big into organs in supplement form or

having the mess Whole Foods

any other supplements that you've

included

since we last talked none

salt

and I'm intentional about the salt

I try to find Salt that's low in

microplastics

there's a couple of different salts

there's a kaleema salt

there's a couple other different salts

that can say they're low in microplastic

so microplastics are just getting into

all of our food supplies and I'm just

intentional about that but

I haven't really felt the need and it's

been a very interesting

I think Endeavor to think about what

supplements I would possibly include

a lot of people include magnesium and so

I did chronometer for my diet on my

podcast which is now called the Paul

saladino MD podcast

and I'm getting like 125 percent of the

RDA for magnesium in my diet from milk

from orange juice from coconut water

and meat is actually a really good

source of magnesium

in terms of minerals

if you're eating liver

and you're eating red meat I can't think

of a mineral that you're going to be

deficient in I mean you're going to get

manganese I think people sometimes get

wrapped around the axle with thymine but

there's plenty of thymine and different

fruits there's plenty of thymine and

organs and animal Foods

so in terms of B vitamins if you're

including liver

you've got riboflavin you've got choline

you've got biotin things that are not as

rich in muscle meat in fact riboflavin

and biotin are particularly poor in

muscle Meats adding organs helps with

that

you're getting plenty of

B6 B5 B12

folate is also in liver and egg yolks so

in terms of the B vitamins you're pretty

well covered

in terms of the minerals you're pretty

well covered

in terms of the other vitamins the fat

soluble vitamins vitamin E is really

prevalent in animal fat butter

vitamin C is in Fruit orange juice I'll

have some fresh squeeze orange juice

every day

and then the carbohydrates help with the

other mineral retention so that I don't

have to do a whole lot of these

electrolytes anymore I don't supplement

potassium it's actually can be dangerous

to supplement potassium depending on

your kidney status

so I think that assault basically a

sodium

allows your body to hold on to all of

the other minerals and you look at this

animal-based diet which is basically

what I've called this meat organs fruit

honey raw dairy

there's really nothing nothing missing

and I'm just not saying that that's what

I see on chronometers so I don't feel

the need to supplement with anything

else

but I'm interested in what kind of

things people feel like they need or

benefit from but I think as long as I

can get the organs and I'm getting the

fresh organs or the desiccated organs

like heart and soil I don't see a need

to do much of anything here

well one of the things I think is really

unique about your diet versus say some

of the carnivores or other people eating

an animal-based diet

is the amount of organs that you consume

or at least presumably from following

your work online

a lot of people these days whether

they're you know variety of different

diets people are including them for the

different health benefits and the amount

of nutrients they contain

but it seems like for you you're

consuming them in Whole Food form and in

supplement form you're the founder of a

company that you know does organ

supplements so that makes sense you're

going to be having a lot of them

compared to the average Joe

but what I'm getting at is

how many organs do we need and the

reason I asked that is I'm picturing

somebody back in the day ancestral times

killing an animal harvesting the organs

they're gonna have a lot of muscle meat

they're gonna have a relatively small

amount of organs

so

again in your diet it seems like you're

having quite a few of these

do you feel like you're doing more than

our ancestors would do do you feel

that's just an advantage of the 21st

century and having access to them and

you're better off because of it I'm just

curious on how you think of that from an

ancestral perspective

yeah so um I think that when I was doing

a strict carnivore diet perhaps because

I was only eating meat and organs

I was eating more organs than I am now

and a different variety but right now on

a daily basis I have about half an ounce

of liver maybe an ounce of liver per day

so not a not a huge amount maybe the

size of a quarter per liver and I'll do

like frozen raw usually or desiccated

like hardened soil

I'll do a few ounces of heart every day

because I can just throw it on the grill

with my meat hard is interesting it's a

muscle but it is uniquely high and

things like answering taurine coenzyme

Q10 some other peptides that are found

in heart so my go-to's on a daily basis

are liver and heart and I think if

people are getting liver especially

that's a huge upgrade

if you add a little bit of heart every

once in a while or a couple times a week

you're doing great

I might add in some testicle a few times

a month just because we know the

testicle contains bioactive androgens I

mean

I don't know if you've heard this story

but all of our supplements that hardened

soil now

are informed Sports approved which is

like the NSF it's actually more rigorous

than an SF

so they have no contaminants quote

unquote so that professional athletes

can take them so all the supplements are

informed Sports except one only one of

them failed and that was our whole

package supplement which is the one with

testicle and it didn't fail because we

add anything to it it failed because

testicle in the supplement naturally

contains bioactive androgens androstein

Dione testosterone so informed Sports

won't certify that one because it

contains androgens so we know that

testicle contains androgens and so you

know I'm a man my testosterone is great

my libido is good especially when I

sleep well I've shown this in my blood

work all the time but I think testicle

is valuable for men to eat maybe even

women sometimes too but definitely is a

man I like to eat testicle every once in

a while

and that's about the extent of my organs

these days if I come across sometimes I

get some tripe or some intestines I'll

cook some like intestines on the grill

and those can be really good but I don't

do a lot of different things anymore I

think that the desiccated organs help

with that you know beef organs is hard

liver kidney spleen and pancreas that's

easier for me than cooking kidney and

pancreas and spleen which are not super

great I haven't figured out a way to

make those easily so I don't eat a ton

of organs anymore but I think that the

organs that I eat are like the most

impactful ones that I can get easily and

that's what I want people to know that

even if you just include liver it's

going to be a big deal and people it's

incredible what you hear from people who

include things like testicle or other

organs in their life too

all right let's talk about processing

when it comes to organ meat so you

mentioned a few different things there

Frozen liver you mentioned cooking some

organs we know the supplements are

desiccated which is freeze-dried right

is that it synonymous I think it's a

little different but yeah yeah okay

we'll talk about talk about supplements

then in the different ways of processing

and then talk about why someone would

want to have certain organs prepared in

certain ways and what we lose when

they're cooked or freeze-dried yeah so

the interesting thing about this

conversation is that when I was with the

hadza

they didn't need anything raw they

cooked it all so we were eating cooked

liver they were not eating raw liver but

some African tribes will eat raw liver

and I'll tell you that when we hunted

and killed animals with the hadza and

they took the liver out of the animal

they treated that thing like gold it was

like placed on a rock very carefully

cooked and then divided with the tribe

this probably makes sense being in the

bush parasites are a thing so I think

there's value

to cooked liver

I have found that Raw Liver is easier

for me to eat

I can either chew it and I think it's

fairly safe because I believe that I'm

getting it from a good source I've never

gotten sick from raw liver but people

should know that raw meat raw organs raw

vegetables all of these have risks raw

milk very safe but I think that the most

number of food poisoning cases actually

come from raw vegetables

now and that pasteurized milk has just

as many problems with contamination as

raw milk does today and if you get raw

milk from a place like raw Farm they

tested a whole bunch that stuff is super

super safe but if you want to eat organs

raw that's great I've eaten a lot of raw

organs in my day raw heart pretty

freaking safe if you've ever eaten a

rare steak or a blue rare steak you know

that you can eat muscle meat pretty darn

rare and raw and be just fine the vast

majority of the time

but I do think that if you eat a whole

bunch of ground beef raw you're probably

going to run into problems just because

the meat is all ground together so there

are values to cooked organs

what's interesting for me about freeze

drying organs is that you can basically

take the water out of an organ at a

temperature below what you find in the

freezer of your house that's what freeze

drying is

there's something called the triple

point where you can sublimate water you

can just take it directly from a solid

to a gas

if you make the pressure low enough so

that's what a freeze dryer does it

lowers the pressure and you can just

take the water out of something

at a very very low temperature so what's

interesting about that is that you can

make these desiccated organs well let's

say freeze-dried is probably the correct

term

and it preserves as many of the

nutrients as possible there were studies

done on Raw organs and freeze-dried

organs in the 1950s on animals and they

found that there were these bioactive

factors probably peptides that were

present in raw and present in

freeze-dried organs that were not

present in cooked organs so that kind of

stuff makes me think oh

it's probably good to get some cooked

organs probably good to get some

freeze-dried organs maybe go to get some

raw organs too but I think that there is

something to this like idea that if you

cook your organs and you cook all of

your food all the way through you may be

missing some benefits

I came across a new train recently that

I was reminded of named taurine

and there's a lot of longevity arguments

out there now against meat people in the

longevity space don't eat meat

ironically they also take about a

hundred supplements

many of which are nutrients found

exclusively in meat

things like carnosine or taurine

and the data on taurine is very

compelling there was actually an article

published in June or July of 2023 in

science

talking about how across worms across

mice and across primates taurine

supplementation extends lifespan

well taurine is only found in meat

so that doesn't make a whole lot of

sense that something found exclusively

in meat would extend lifespan but that

meat would be bad for your lifespan

and I did a podcast recently about that

there's a number of nutrients like that

answering creatine carnosine B12 four

hydroxyproline which is a component of

collagen all of these are found

exclusively or vastly predominantly in

meat and connective tissue and they're

very good for humans so it just kind of

flies in the face of these

anti-longevity meat arguments but the

point of this point the point of this

discussion here was that taurine is

actually the nature in 40 to 50 when you

cook meat

so it's probably benefit to eating

a medium rare or a rare steak

you can sear the outside get rid of

anything problematic on the outside of

the stake but then you're getting some

rare ish meat in the middle

and even though I talked about the

dangers of ground beef I eat most of my

hamburgers medium medium rare

and I think that the same goes with

liver you know when you're eating raw

liver you're getting more taurine you're

getting all of the bioactive factors

so that's kind of the spectrum and why

you'd want to do one thing or another

the safest thing is a freeze-dried organ

or a cooked organ

and I think that the the most risky

thing is a raw organ

in the middle is probably liver that's

cooked on the outside and pink in the

middle just like a steak but again I I

definitely roll the dice and haven't had

any issues with fully raw liver I think

freezing it probably helps somewhat but

people don't have to feel like that's

something they have to do if that's not

doable for them

got it let's come back to the honey

piece of the diet

I'm curious because you've added in

fruit and honey

is there anything specific in the honey

that you're getting nutrient wise that

you wouldn't get from the fruit

or is that just had more diversity it's

more diversity

um I like the way honey tastes in raw

milk

and I'm pretty active so this morning I

served for

two hours

in the ocean and then I'll get a workout

maybe skate this afternoon

and in

interesting humbling fashion

I've found that basically the more

carbohydrates I eat the better I feel

now

the more carbohydrates I eat the better

I recover the stronger I am the better

my libido is the better I sleep

so I don't fear carbohydrates at all and

oftentimes I'll eat 300 grams of

carbohydrates a day

and I'm five nine and a half 170 pounds

so I'm not a huge human

but I am quite active and I'll get 300

300 plus grams and the easiest way for

me to do that is with honey in addition

to fruit I mean I can get orange juice

in the morning I can squeeze some orange

juice I can have local tropical fruit

right now we've got rambutan in season

and some mangosteen which people may or

not be familiar with there's some

mangoes there's pineapple but getting

300 grams of carbohydrates from fruit

take a lot of work and fruit juice makes

it easier

sometimes when I talk about fruit trees

people say that's not evolutionarily

appropriate and I think well

I'm pretty sure our ancestors would

juice fruit they don't like fiber that

much when I was with the hadza they

would often chew roots and spit out all

the fiber so I think it's common for

humans to sort of make juice in their

mouth by spitting out extra fiber

in fibrous fruits and if they had the

ability I think that it's it's common to

see them make juice I mean many

indigenous cultures make sugar cane

juice which is quite delicious and

probably very healthy for humans without

being processed juicing is very common

more common people think so I could make

a lot of juice out of the fruit but the

honey is another thing that's beneficial

I think in terms of the carbohydrates

there's actually also studies in

diabetics showing that honey improves

insulin sensitivity so I think that

coming back to this idea that

and this may sound ironic to people

I hope to share ideas that are valuable

for people and the intention has always

been to

suggests the highest degree of variety

with the least amount of toxins and

that's expanding over time right in the

carnivore diet there's not a lot of

variety but I think that I was thinking

incorrectly about the toxins that could

be in fruit

I was worried about the sugars there

so now I think why not have honey in

your diet it actually has a lot of good

data in diabetics cardiovascular disease

in addition to fruit and fruit juice

which have similar data

there's data with red blood red orange

juice regular orange juice and a few

other fruit juices I think grape juice

showing improvements in endothelial

function

sort of post

-contraction dilatation in the

endothelium which is the blood vessel

lining on the inside of both the the

veins and the arteries

so when people say that fruit is bad for

humans or it causes insulin resistance I

sort of shake my head and wait for them

to show me any sort of data that really

corroborates that and doesn't really

work that way

there's data showing that fructose is

harmful in animal models but fructose is

not the same as fruit in a whole food

form and animal models are uniquely bad

at predicting fructose in humans because

mice and rats metabolize fructose very

differently than humans people also

conflate studies with high fructose corn

syrup and things with honey and fruit so

those don't look the same in human data

either

there's actually data in mice

interestingly showing that when mice are

fed

sucrose so table sugar which is a

disaccharide of glucose and fructose

versus high fructose corn syrup which is

theoretically also glucose and fructose

at pretty similar ratios the mice gained

much more weight on the high fructose

corn syrup so you have one you know

component which is

probably moderately processed and

sucrose in one component which is highly

processed and high fructose corn syrup

and you're not looking at really the

same thing so that's a bit of a

digression about

fruit and sugar fear but hopefully I

answered your question there you talked

about something there I want to

highlight I think it's really important

the fact that as we're hearing about

your diet and how it's evolved and how

you have quite a few carbohydrates now

it's important to note the fact that you

are highly active

and you again you did touch on this but

you some or somebody who is out surfing

and you talked about skateboarding like

I'm only judging this from what I see

online but you're moving your body

you know throughout the whole day more

than the average person by far

so for somebody who's taking this in

right now maybe they're working an

office job and they're like oh I can

have carbs again and honey and it's like

you need to really take that in context

of the lifestyle you're living which is

very unique and at the website which is

Paul saladino

md.co.co there's a free animal-based

calculator

and we kind of put a metric in there for

how active are you

and you can go and say oh I'm very

active or moderately active or just

minimally active

and the calculator will scale the

carbohydrates for you so I think that

definitely

not everyone needs 300 grams of

carbohydrates a day most people probably

don't need 200 grams of carbohydrates a

day but

for some people who are Elite athletes

or who are active

getting more carbohydrates clearly has

profound benefits and oftentimes when

people go from carnivore to animal based

they won't eat enough carbohydrates and

that causes problems so if anything

people tend to err on the side of too

few carbohydrates actually

um and that causes issues I hear people

all the time I mean we're doing this

month at heart and soil we're doing the

animal base 30 which is a free 30-day

animal-based eating challenge

and people will often say I do Jiu Jitsu

and I'm getting muscle cramps

can I say or the team will say what are

you eating and they say well I'm having

like four ounces of strawberries and a

handful of blueberries a day and we say

well that's great

that's like 35 grams of carbohydrates

that's nothing

so getting someone at least above a

hundred if they're even moderately

active in terms of carbohydrates makes a

massive difference and I think some

people have talked about doing an

animal-based diet

and they just don't

it's easier for people to get

carbohydrates from oatmeal or sweet

potatoes

and sweet potatoes are kind of this gray

area but oatmeal is something I'm not a

huge fan of at all

it's easier people to get carbohydrates

from oatmeal than it is from fruit and

honey they just don't eat enough fruit

they don't eat enough fruit juice we

have this fear of these things and most

people tend to be too low carb and they

end up just going low carb in their keto

again and they end up with all the same

problems

and another area that highlights the

point I was making there of your unique

lifestyle when you talked about

supplements

you didn't mention vitamin D which is a

common one for a lot of people here in

North America you're now down in Costa

Rica where you're getting sun and you're

out with your shirt off and I'm here in

Ontario where we have you know gray

skies for the majority not the majority

you know maybe two-thirds of the year

so depending on your unique situation

you have to look at this

with unique eyes yeah I mean I don't

know the video is showing it really well

right now but I'm pretty tan

you look good Jesse you look like you're

tan from here I don't know while you're

catching me in that one third of the

Year where we have Sun so I'm getting

sun right now and I'm taking full

advantage of that but in the other two

thirds of the year I'm making sure my

vitamin D supplementation is in a good

range and

again it's just you're living this

really unique life and I just want to

make sure that point is highlighted I

think vitamin D is a is a valuable

supplement for people and you're right I

appreciate you pointing that out

um I do think that it is it interesting

living near the equator so I live at the

eighth

I live at a latitude of eight eight

north latitude

Austin Texas I think is

27 28.

in Ontario you're probably

39 who knows

um

maybe 36 maybe 36 34. I think Seattle

was pretty far up there

and so I think that the cutoff is

something like 27 28 if you're above 27

28 in the latitude then you can just

look this up online

there is a significant portion of the

Year where you have a vitamin D winter

where the Sun never actually gets high

enough in the sky to make any vitamin D

even if it's a sunny day it's valuable

to be in the Sun for your circadian

rhythm but you're not making any vitamin

D on your skin so you you have to really

do something else to to get that that

nutrient and for most of us probably the

ideal would be getting super tan in the

summer but even in the summer you

probably can't go out and get massively

Tan in Ontario because

you need to do some work inside at some

point I mean you're podcasting from

indoors right now you're losing your tan

exactly

well let's talk more about that move so

obviously with this lifestyle you're

living you know you love surfing you're

a very active guy Costa Rica makes sense

from that perspective now you're

incorporating fruit I'm assuming there's

a lot of good fruit down there

but talk about when you made the move

and what the reasons were behind that if

there's anything beyond what I just said

yeah so I moved to Costa Rica about two

and a half years ago

I first lived on the Guanacaste

peninsula in a town called Santa Teresa

I've since moved away from there and now

I live on the coast

elsewhere but I

was living in Austin Texas and

I was missing this is going to sound

strange people I was missing Flow State

so

I started skiing in my early 20s

when I was 21 or 22 I threw hike to the

Pacific Crest Trail which means I walked

from Mexico to Canada

and after that trip with my friend that

I hiked with I moved to Telluride

and I started skiing in Southwest

Colorado and I never had ski before in

my life and I thought this is really

cool

it just kind of unlocked something for

me that I'd never had before which is

this Flow State this idea that moving

across snow preferably powder snow

was did interesting things to my brain I

just tickled my brain in unique ways and

it brought incredible amounts of joy to

my life

and so for the next six years I

basically chased Flow State downhill

mountain biking mountain biking

skiing climbing Mountaineering and

eventually I went back to graduate

school to physician assistant school

where I worked as a Cardiology PA for

four years before returning to medical

school and that was the beginning of my

medical Journey but so I had like six

years of this

very unique time in my life where I was

just doing something where in the moment

in Flow State you just sort of Lose

Yourself it's just it's so fun it's just

for lack of a better word is just pure

joy as a child and you're just you're so

in the moment because you have to just

focus on what you're doing

fast forward to two and a half years ago

I was in Austin

I love the people there

but I was just missing this Flow State

I had a foil board

that I would take out to Lake Travis but

it wasn't quite

the same I started surfing a few years

before that in Seattle when I was in my

residency which is about the worst place

to ever learn to surf but

even though I'd probably only been on

a handful of legitimate waves in my

whole life

after leaving Seattle and moving to

Austin I that feeling was just really

meaningful to me and

this may sound

I don't know how it what word I want to

use there it may sound trivial to people

but I've come to realize that in my own

life

the more fun I'm having and the more joy

that I experience on a daily basis the

more productive I am in my work

so the more of my passions my real

passions not my work passions but my

just Hobbies my quote-unquote frivolous

passions that I pursue the more

productive I am in my creative work in

the world so I think that getting to

surf

getting to skateboard getting to do

these things over the last five years

has been a key component of all the work

that I've done in the world writing a

book building companies podcasting like

this is what keeps me going and it's

really the antidote to burnout for me

so in Austin I was feeling kind of

burned out I just didn't have enough

Flow State I couldn't get this and

maybe I

could have found a boat or rented a boat

or found friends with a boat and gone

wake surfing but I was on my way back

from Tanzania visiting the hadza and I

came to Costa Rica on a vacation

and ended up just staying so I was at

eight day vacation I got to surf in

Santa Teresa I loved it I got to see the

sunrise I think I got to experience

firsthand a lot of the things that you

were describing that I didn't even know

that I was missing in Austin

I was up with the sun I was grounding

in the ocean my circadian rhythm was

programmed because I was getting the

sunlight in my eyes

I was watching sunsets it was community

I was in the ocean surfing

Flow State

and just so everyone knows I'm pretty

mediocre Surfer but I really love it not

great but I still I'm getting better but

I really like it and so it was just this

the realization like wow this is the

best life I've ever lived

I want to keep doing this and so I did

so I just you know eight days turned

into two months turned into three months

turned into a year

and now

I live in Costa Rica yeah and thankfully

I can do my work virtually so I don't

have to be somewhere in the United

States did anybody else move down with

you or was this a solo thing solo brush

it's charging yeah and that's that's why

I brought this up because we know

Community is such an important piece for

it sounds like you're in a really good

mental place and you're getting these

this flow benefit and

I'm assuming there's a great Community

there but how

how is that part of your life panned out

since you know

pulling yourself out of Austin and

plopping yourself in this new area have

you been able to quickly make a new

community and group of friends there

not quickly but it's happening

I think surfing helps

because

there's so much camaraderie and surfing

you're out there in the ocean especially

when the waves get overhead or

moderately large

you're just out there with friends and

you're watching each other get destroyed

by waves or you're watching each other

get a great wave and you're cheering

each other on and

you meet people on the beach watching

the surf it's just a very tight-knit

community of people and the my community

now expands out from there and

everywhere I've gone in Costa Rica it's

really started with the surfing

community meeting people on the beach

and in the ocean one of the nice things

about living on the coast

is that you see people on the beach and

you see people you know there's also

farmers markets here so I see people at

farmers market so there's just this

different pace of life

and there's an ease of intersection of

our lives right I live in a small town

and so there's people that I know and

I'm very likely to bump into those

people in certain places so it's this

ease of community

people know people and I think when

you're living in Costa Rica especially

as an expat so someone from the United

States

you've made this intentional Choice when

you find other people whether it's

families or single people you think why

are you here what are you doing here

everyone has an interesting story they

wanna live a different life they want to

live in the jungle they want clean air

clean water proximity to surfing

whatever

it lends itself to just very human

connections and commonalities which is

pretty cool so it doesn't feel as

separated right like we're just not as

separate from other people here

we wear less clothes we're mostly

Barefoot I'm sure less this is very rare

that I'm even wearing a shirt for this

podcast

you see people all over the place so

it's it feels more

like being a human to me in a lot of

ways and I think that

if people are listening to this and

thinking that's great for you Paul but I

could never do that

all I would say is there's lessons in

all of that that can be

employed wherever you are you can get

sun in the morning wherever you live

you can get into the sun in the summer

you can go to bodies of water you can

ground you can touch grass

and I think that if I were to move back

to the United States and live anywhere

in the United States or Canada I'm not a

Canadian citizen but

or anywhere I think that I would try to

seek out some of the same things that

I've created here for myself

places where I'm going to connect with

people who are like-minded

kind of easily whether that's a skate

park or a Whole Foods or you know some

sort of community center where I'm going

to intersect with people that's very

meaningful for me it happens organically

here but I know in Austin now there's a

couple of places popping up where people

who are like-minded end up hanging out

Assad on cold plunge and or gyms I think

if you can find a gym where people are

sort of like-minded there are some gyms

with a certain ethos this difference in

other gyms right so that kind of stuff I

think you can create these things

Wherever You Are

um I'm quite grateful to be able to do

it here in Costa Rica but I think it's

scalable to most places and I think

wherever I would live now I would want

to be by water because being here has

really reminded me of the benefits of

that Austin had some water and when I

used to live there I would be at Barton

Springs all the time when I go back to

visit

you can find me at Barton Springs so if

you guys are listening to this and

if you go to Barton Springs you'll

probably see me there when I'm in Austin

I see people there all the time

while hearing your story here you've at

least alluded to the fact that it's

crossed your mind that you might move

back to the US or move away from Costa

Rica

How likely do you feel it'll be that

you'll be in Costa Rica long term pretty

likely

any downsides of moving there

sure

um

in Costa Rica there's this saying Pura

Vida and record a joke there's these

puravita problems

so

most adulting quote unquote things are

two to three times harder to do here

it's harder to pay your electric bill

it's harder to pay your internet bill

it's hard to get your car inspected cars

break down here

um so there's definitely downsides but

for me it's totally worth it and once

you figure out

how to do it all it's pretty doable

I live kind of up in the mountains a few

kilometers from the ocean so

power goes out sometimes internet goes

out sometimes

uh yeah the

I think landslides happen a lot of roads

are dirt

um

things happen things happen it's

different

it's definitely different it's not all

roses here for sure but it's it's a

different type of life

I think that I've gotten to a place now

where I've been able to create a space

that's a little bit more insulated from

those things I have backup batteries in

my house and a generator and

I haven't figured out the Wi-Fi yet when

I get starlink that'll be great

um if you find people in the community

you can lean on them to teach you where

a good mechanic is and how to do the

things you need to do for your car or

how to pay your internet bill and your

other things there's like a whole

there's a whole industry that's sprung

up around people helping other people

move

to Costa Rica and Central America

because it's sort of a headache and

believe me when I first when I first

moved to Santa Teresa

my power and internet got shut off

so I bought a house in Santa Teresa now

sold it but I think within a month and a

half of moving into that house my power

and internet got shut off because I

thought I don't even know how to pay

this and it's now I just woke up one day

I don't have internet I don't have power

what the heck

I don't even know how to do this

so it's you can just do it online it's

very difficult

well Paul throughout our conversation

we've gotten a pretty good idea of the

amount of activity you do the different

activities you do throughout the day

what work looks like what your diet

looks like

but I think it'd be interesting to take

us through a typical day

when you get up what you do what you eat

what your eating window looks like

can you take me through what that is

yeah it's evolved over time but

go to sleep at about 8 P.M which sounds

really early

Until you realize that the sun goes down

here at 6 PM year round because we're at

the Equator so the day is never really

vary much

slightly but not much

sun comes up at about 5 15 so I usually

get up with the sunrise

and I'm usually in the ocean before 6

a.m surfing

before I surf I have a glass of raw milk

and honey

maybe a coconut for water like a real

coconut

serve for a couple hours

come back

eat breakfast breakfast is usually

fresh squeezed orange juice local fruit

grass-fed meat steak or Burger

cheese raw milk

maybe some liver

and then uh

depending what time of the morning it is

I

settle in

do a little stretching after surfing sit

down to do some work for a few hours I

try to block my work into like two

deep work sessions of two or three hours

usually I get like two two hour blocks a

day of deep work creative work whether

it's podcasting with you or someone else

a podcast from my podcast research for a

podcast

after the first

um

deep work session I'll usually eat again

maybe a smaller meal a little bit of

meat cheese

fruit

coconut type of thing

and then maybe another deep work session

maybe not

maybe an afternoon workout my friend Ben

Patrick was just here knees over toes

guy

so I do a lot of his stuff for workouts

not a whole lot of weight lifting

but it's a lot of Mobility training I

sit too much so I'm always trying to un

lock my hips

I'm interested in the strength of my

posterior deltoids trying to make my

posterior shoulders really strong for

surfing

my tibialis muscles my calves these kind

of things I have a gym in my house but I

mostly end up doing body weight Mobility

stuff

in the afternoon I'll often either go

out for another surf or skate with my

friends maybe put up a slack line

somewhere

and then come home

5 5 30 dinner

I usually eat dinner by the time it gets

dark here around six

dinner is usually

more grass-fed meat raw dairy honey

fruit organs

and uh I mean I try and mix it up but

I'm one of these people that finds

routine

comforting I don't really need to change

my food if I've got good ground beef and

I've got

good fruit I'll just eat that

consistently I don't have to eat crazy

steaks or lots of different things I

don't use many spices in my food in fact

I don't use any spices other than just a

low microplastic sea salt

so yeah the variety of my diet comes

with like seasonal fruit here whatever

is in season I'll eat that like no like

I said rambutan mangosteen

pineapple mango

it's coming into season so yeah it's

meat it's organs fruit fruit juice raw

dairy honey

that's kind of what I eat and I eat it

throughout the day so the eating window

is

pretty it's pretty much the whole day I

used it in a red and fast I don't do

that anymore

I'll eat

when I get up at six

you know 5 30 in the morning eat my last

meal at 6 6 30 sometimes so

yeah there could be a 12 hour eating

window or more in the day and I think

that that's fine I don't really worry

about that anymore that's a whole

separate conversation well hearing you

talk about what you eat and and the meat

you're eating it sounds like at least

the majority of it is beef

I'm curious the diversity within that

meat category

how much of it is beef how much of it is

ground beef

this ties back to what we talked about

before you know you're a big fan of

getting quality animal products are you

having chicken pork and obviously it's

going to be dependent on where you're

living and what you have access to so

talk about the meat piece and what the

diversity looks like

I haven't found any good chicken or pork

in Costa Rica so I just eat beef

there's a great butcher here in town

that is grass-fed grass-finished uses no

pesticides on their land

I was just talking to a friend

about getting one of his cattle

a year and a half old

um cow that's been on their land fed

only grass no pesticides the whole life

so probably will eat that meat most of

what I eat is ground beef

I

don't I really like ground beef and I

think it's affordable and it's not

yeah you don't have to do anything crazy

when I do steak I like skirt steak or

flat iron or hanger steak

if I can get a good rib eye I'll eat it

but that's not the majority of my meals

um I don't eat a lot of eggs though I

think eggs are great for humans because

they just haven't found the right people

to do it

on my land I want to start growing

chickens and maybe the chickens I'll eat

the chickens eventually and maybe I'll

eat their eggs if I can just keep them

safe from predators we'll see and just

get them to eat bugs and crickets and

worms and things like that

that would be an interesting piece of

content to show what their eggs look

like so

I don't eat much fish

I think that fish in general is

problematic for humans in 2023 because

of the heavy metals the microplastics

pfas

so para floral alkyl substances the same

kind of things that are in these

Lululemon leggings are also in your fish

endocrine disruptors forever chemicals

are synonyms for that classic chemicals

I don't think it's a big deal if people

want to eat fish every once in a while

but if you make fish the majority of

your diet I think it would be prudent to

check your heavy metals

because fish is a real problem when it

comes to that stuff it's just not not

great for humans and it's just polluted

so I don't eat a lot of fish anymore but

I think it's reasonable on an

animal-based diet

same with chicken and pork I just

haven't found a good enough source

and I found pretty good sources of beef

um yeah and I get raw milk locally and

farmers markets again Community talking

to the farmers organic produce there is

great

you mentioned ground beef being a big

part of the diet

how do you keep that interesting how do

you cook that man I you know I I think

that if the ground beef has enough fat

you won't get bored of it but if the

ground beef is too lean your body will

get bored of it and I don't think I'm

programmed as differently from other

people as those listening May believe

um for many people when they think about

eating a lot of meat especially a lot of

red meat their first concern is I'm

going to get so bored but more often

than not I hear people surprised at how

satisfying it is and how often they look

forward to the next meal as long as that

meat has a reasonable amount of fat so

when I'm getting ground beef I'm getting

80 20.

at least 85 15 never 90 10.

and if I need to make it more

interesting I'll just add some butter I

think meat gets boring when it's just

protein if you have some fat in there

it's juicy it's just it's rewarding and

your body's gonna love it it's just

people are eating meat that's too lean

and it feels boring so if you get fat in

your meat it's going to be fine most of

the time if you're really a foodie and

you're using food as entertainment

that's great food is amazing

and oftentimes that that can be an

impediment to really optimizing your

health

so I like ground beef because it's easy

it tastes good

one of the downsides living in Costa

Rica is we don't have Angus Cattle here

or wagyu they don't do well in the heat

we have a mixture of Brahmin and Angus

or I think it's Nell your cattle and

they're not as good

so the rib eyes I've had here are very

hidden Miss every once in a while I get

a good rib eye but

the skirt steak is fine

but the ground beef is just hey if

you've got kind of tough meat just make

ground beef out of it I'm a simple man

I'll make bone broth also I forgot about

that I've actually got some oxtail in

the crock pot uh instant pot right now

that I'm going to use for collagen

so yeah I don't think ground beef is

problematic if people want to do

different steaks that's fine and if you

need variety chicken pork fish fine

great just think about the pros and cons

of each piece of that and yeah I would

say the piece that people are probably

not thinking about with regard to

boredom

is the fat content of the meat people

want to trim the fat off and

that doesn't make exciting meat

so you mentioned even adding butter into

the ground beef will you ever add other

things like towel or coconut oil you

could add Tallow if you wanted to I

don't add coconut oil I generally don't

use coconut oil for anything anymore

um but you could sometimes you could put

a little cheese I think people will will

intuitively understand that like a

cheeseburger is more interesting than a

hamburger that's probably because of

well the dairy is interesting and the

fat from the cheese is good too so I

suppose if you wanted to you could put

some cheese in your burger if it's too

lean or something and then Grill it I

also have a really nice Grill here in

Costa Rica that I brought from the

United States

and so it makes the meat pretty good

I'm really honing in on this ground beef

piece because I do tend to enjoy ground

beef as well and I'm trying to think of

different ways I can diversify and and

enjoy it in a different Realm I love

burgers

but do you find a lot of the time you're

just like cooking it up in a pan and and

then putting it on a plate and eating it

with a fork and keeping it really simple

or is it mostly Burgers I just really

want your ideas as somebody that really

eats a lot of that I cook it on a grill

I don't cook in the pan ever

so the grill I think helps and

you know I will eat it with I usually

have a glass of milk with it

or I'll have a glass of orange juice

with it or I'll have some fruit with it

but I'm pretty simple it's usually fruit

and meat

some kind of orange juice milk

and I think I mean how how lean is your

ground beef

to be honest I couldn't tell you off the

top of my head I'm gonna now that I know

the percentages I'm gonna be more keen

on observing that and looking for the

fattier the fattier me and I think

there's a lot of I don't know how much

regulation there is around

saying something is 80 20.

and then actually

about really having a b80 20.

the linear the leaner meats are actually

usually more expensive so I don't know

why

they would mislabel an 80 20 but

um a lot of times when I go to the US I

will get ground beef and it says it's 80

20 and I think this is not even not even

close 80 20 is pretty fatty ground beef

you'll know it

and I've had ground beef in the United

States that's even more fatty than that

it's probably 25 or 30 fat and that's

really good so 70 30 and if you're

getting me from a butcher and they can

grind some extra fat in there for you

it'll be really good

I had this ground beef in the states

I think it was from Panorama Farms

and it had

I think it was

26 or 28 grams of fat per serving which

sounds like a lot if you think fat is

bad for you it sounds like a lot if you

think that is good for you but it was

delicious

most ground beef per serving is 17 to 18

grams and I think the serving sizes

on the back of a ground beef package I'd

have to guess it's either four or six

ounces

so I'm not sure exactly how much is in

there but you definitely want

more fat in your ground beef it'll taste

so much better and obviously I believe

that animal fat is good for humans

vitamin E vitamin K2 so many other good

fat soluble nutrients stearic acid so

don't fear the animal it just tastes

better A lot of fatty Burgers then yeah

fatty Burgers we're adding cheese to

your burger or raw cheese to your burger

you know what I've had also that's

really good is raw cream

I know raw milk is illegal in Canada

unfortunately

that's probably the number one reason

you should move

but if you have raw cream and you add

raw cream to your burger that's I don't

know how you can get bored of that you

can also take an egg yolk if you have

good eggs and you want to crack a raw

egg yolk not the white but just a raw

egg yolk on your burger that makes it

interesting too I've done that

um raw cream cheese on a burger is great

so adding the fat onto the burger

different flavors that's really good

honey

so one of the best things is just butter

and honey or sour cream and honey yogurt

and honey

yogurt and egg yolk like all like the

creamy fatty things on the burger your

sauce

thank you for that a lot of great ideas

let's move into body care products and I

think this has a couple different layers

to it one being the fact you're in Costa

Rica and you probably don't have access

like you do in the U.S

and then two being the fact that you're

you're diet and your lifestyle is animal

based

so how do you source good products to

clean your skin and and we'll even bring

that into the home too let's talk about

the different products you're using on

your body and in your home

that you feel good about

yeah this was actually really

interesting

so I hate fragrances

hate fragrances a lot of time fragrances

are phthalates or other things that

humans don't want

so I don't like fragrances in my laundry

detergent I don't like fragrances in my

dishwasher detergent I don't like I

don't even use dishwasher I wash my

dishes by hand

so what I discovered in Costa Rica is

that white vinegar is amazing laundry

detergent that's all I get it's three

dollars for a huge jug of white vinegar

and I just put that in my washing

machine and my clothes are great

so if you look at laundry detergents in

general there's a compound found in a

lot of laundry detergents called one for

dioxane

it's a probable almost certain human

carcinogen and it's above two parts per

million in in many different laundry

detergents so even laundry detergents

that are fragrance free have one for

dioxane in them something you can absorb

from your clothes so I really like

washing my clothes in vinegar one of the

hardest things for me about traveling is

that I go to airbnbs and the sheets are

washed and some fragrance containing

laundry detergent

so if you want to use a detergent the

Seventh Generation

fragrance free has zero one for dioxane

but that's the only one I've seen that

has zero one for dioxide I have no

affiliation with that

but I just use vinegar for my clothes

works great

for my dishes I run into the same

problem in Costa Rica in the United

States I can get Seventh Generation or

ecos like fragrance free dishwasher soap

or hands basically not hand soap but

soap for my brush because I just wash my

dishes by hand I like that process I

don't like dishwashers

but in Costa Rica it's very hard to find

those things so I realize baking soda

works great for that

so my two home care products are white

vinegar and baking soda and it's it's so

satisfying to think oh this is super

cheap baking soda is like there's

nothing contaminating it super clean

it's usually USP so us pharmacopoeia you

know like it's sodium bicarbonate that's

it

um and it works great so that's what I

use for my dishes

I wash them by hand if you look at

dishwasher detergents a lot of them

contain alcohol ethoxylates which are

known to damage the human gut and a lot

of that residue stays on the dishes so

you probably could find a better

dishwasher detergent but when I look on

Amazon dishwasher detergents are tough

even the clean ones have alcohol with

oxalates in them so

dish soaps you can probably get a good

dish soap if you wash them by hand but

if you want to wash your dishes in a

dishwasher be careful you're probably

leaving residue on there that's not

great for you and your family

in terms of soaps

same kind of stuff I would use a soap

that's fragrance free

or had some essential oil in it that I

like the scent of I don't really use any

scent that's made from Tallow or

something in Costa Rica I don't use any

soap I just rinse off in water I'm in

the ocean hours a day

I have good water in my house we

actually the the water for this

neighborhood is from a spring and a well

so I just rinse off in water I don't use

soap in my body

um if I'm kneading deodorant I can

either use apple cider vinegar or

rubbing alcohol there are some good

natural deodorants out there that have

that are Tallow based probably build one

of my own here pretty soon and bring it

to Market but that's in the works

um so if people want that stuff it's

available but I think there are natural

ways to

change human odor if you're in a space

where smelling like a human isn't

effective or isn't acceptable

interestingly when I was in Los Angeles

recently for the arowan Smoothie launch

that animal-based smoothie with arawan

one girl came up to me and she goes hey

can I smell you and I thought oh my God

all right we got this on video I'm sure

we'll put it out as content

because she heard that I don't I don't

use deodorant I don't use soap and she

totally smelled me she's like you smell

good and I was like yeah I don't know I

don't smell bad

um I think wearing natural clothing

helps with that

so I wear wool shirts

and cotton shorts

in the past when I wore synthetic

clothing polyester clothing stinks way

more than

natural clothing and I found that wool

clothing doesn't really smell so

sometimes if I have a cotton shirt

and I work out in a lot it'll get a

little stinky but wool doesn't even

smell we'll like resist the smell so

even not wearing deodorant my clothing

doesn't smell and I feel like it's not

so much the humans that smell it's our

clothing that smells because that gets

like the oils and the skin cells and the

bacteria break that down and usually

it's not humans unless you're eating a

crappy diet that smell bad it's just

your clothing that gets like metabolized

by bacteria so wool clothing has been a

real nice hack for me for that I mean

this woman I've never met her she like

leans over and smells me right away and

in public and she was like oh you smell

fine

proof I don't use toothpaste

I think toothpaste is a scam I think you

can remove the the calculus from your

teeth just with a toothbrush and water

and I don't think that you need

toothpaste to fortify your teeth

especially if you're eating fat soluble

nutrients found in liver and egg yolks

and meat

I don't whiten my teeth I don't do any

of those things I just use a toothbrush

and water to brush my teeth

there are some of these tooth powders

now that have

calcium hydroxyapatite in them and that

may be beneficial over tooth enamel but

I think you have to be careful that you

don't overly abrade the enamel of your

teeth

you can definitely put too much tension

and friction on your teeth you don't

really want to brush your teeth with

baking soda then we'll abrade the enamel

so the enamel is kind of fragile on your

teeth and I've people have overly

damage their teeth from using too much

abrasiveness so I'm not really sure that

calcium hydroxyapatite is the best thing

to be using on your teeth you don't need

to like sand blast your teeth just a

basic toothbrush and water removes

plaque it's just it's amazing how it

does that

I found some toothbrushes that are

natural fibers rather than plastic I

don't know how much of the plastic and a

toothbrush fiber could break off and

become a microplastic but I try to think

about minimizing that so I can get like

Boar's Head bristle toothbrushes

I don't use shampoo I have short hair so

I can just wash my hair in water

I know there are natural alternatives

I've seen some women doing cool stuff

online with

apple cider vinegar egg yolks and some

other

girl stuff I don't know they put in

their hair

but yeah so I'm a pretty simple man I

think the men out there will understand

that women will probably think I can't

do that but I think you can probably do

more than you think

I um I use sunscreen in Costa Rica but

it's a personal prototype sunscreen of a

brand that I'm building it's just Tallow

and zinc that I use on my face when I'm

surfing

a lot of sunscreen has seed oils in it

you don't want to put seed oils on your

skin

nor do I want octocrylines octobenzone

have a benzone and all these sunscreen

components that can get absorbed through

the skin into the body

I think spray-on sunscreen is a travesty

and should be illegal because I don't

want to have to inhale your sunscreen

just like I don't want to inhale your

cigarette smoke it's basically the same

thing

probably equally bad for me is your

cigarette's milk so in terms of skin

care

it's what I eat I don't do it I don't

wash my face

uh I don't do it I don't have to do it I

I think that some people get worried

about it I think you can put Tallow on

your skin

um the same skin care companies in the

works we're going to develop a Tallow

face bomb

I think animal fats work great on the

skin pure Tallow is a little greasy so

we're going to have to combine it with

some other things pure butter is a

little greasy on the skin doesn't absorb

real well so we'll get it so that's more

absorbent but animal fats on the skin

work great for skin care

I don't think people have acne because

their skin isn't clean enough I think

they have acne because of the foods

they're eating so I I don't have to use

crazy soaps and rinses to clean my face

and you know I'm sweating and outside

and in the ocean all day and I usually

just use water when I shower and I don't

I don't scrub the heck out of it or do

anything crazy I don't have a crazy

skincare routine

um this is pretty simple I think it's

overly complicated for a lot of people

and you know I was recently in Los

Angeles did a podcast with a really

amazing woman who has lost a lot of

weight and then also has a skin care

journey and was talking to her about

cutting out vegetables from her diet I

think that'll help with acne ironically

people fear milk when it comes to acne

but I think it's the pasteurized kind

that generally triggers the acne not the

not the raw milk so I think skin care is

really interesting

and that it starts with what you eat

it's foundationally what you eat and if

you have skin issues think really hard

about what you eat and maybe you don't

have to worry so much about all the

things that you're putting on your face

wow that's incredible how little you do

and and your skin looks great your teeth

look really white

so whatever you're doing is working

the part I'm particularly fascinated

with is the teeth only using water and a

toothbrush to clean them

how long have you been doing that and

have you had any cavities or any signs

of Decay there

last time I had a cavity was when I was

a vegan

so maybe 12 or 13 years ago no there's

no I don't have veneers or any teaks or

placements you know like all the teeth

are mine no I think that tooth health is

about fat soluble vitamins and even even

eating fruit and honey I think that the

immune system in your teeth

these odontocytes these these actual

immune cells that live in the teeth can

handle all of that if you're getting

enough fat soluble vitamins we know that

vitamin K2 is critical vitamin D these

are critical for healthy teeth and bones

it's a lot of what we eat and how we

live this is Western a price you know

101 you look at people all over the

world this dentist from the 1940s

there's incredible pictures in his books

nutrition and physical degeneration of

huge broad smiles and you know

indigenous people that don't even brush

their teeth at all big strong jaws and

big smiles and I think that that's just

the absence of processed foods and lots

of animal foods to get those nutrients

but yeah I think toothpaste is overrated

obviously fluoride I'm not a fan of

fluoride at all I think there's

compelling evidence in both animals and

humans the fluoride is harmful at a

number of different levels

even the natural toothpaste quote

unquote without fluoride is going to

have polyethylene glycol or soaps or

fragrances things which are abrasive

which can abrade the enamel we get used

to wanting our breath to smell like

toothpaste when in fact it's okay for

your breath just to smell like human

breath like people are still going to

want to kiss you if your breath just

smells like a human

you don't have to worry about that if

you do have bad breath it's usually

coming from your gut and not your mouth

though it can be your mouth but that

population of bacteria in your mouth is

from your gut so that's dysbiosis in

your gut which is again probably

connected with your diet and fixable

with dietary changes when I was in

college

oh when I was in medical school no PA

school this is my late 20s I remember I

was going on a date with a girl

and I had Listerine I had a Listerine

phase I mean Listerine seems great until

you actually look at the data with it

how bad it is for humans but it's just

you know it's this minty like alcohol

Blitz for your mouth you feel like

you're just killing everything I

remember walking out of the house and my

parents were just like whoa your mouth

smells way too much like Listerine and I

thought it's cool I'm good

but now we know that when you do that

when you bomb your mouth with mouthwash

you're killing all these nitric oxide

producing bacteria in the mouth

and there's been a lot of talk recently

about data that people who use mouthwash

before they work out

like actually decrease their muscle

gains from working out you get less

significantly less benefits from working

out if you use mouthwash before you work

out so like you want these Gap Flora you

want these bacteria in your mouth that

produce nitric oxide you just want

healthy populations

but I shudder to think about how much

Listerine that I use in the past

well Paul as you talk about this story

from back in the day going on this date

it gets me thinking about

you and and

the future for you with you know getting

married having a family

it's not something I've seen you post

about is that

obviously like certain things need to

align and it's not totally in your

control

but is is getting married and having a

family a goal for you down the line

definitely yeah yeah it's definitely a

goal for me I mean I'm single never been

married no kids but living in Costa Rica

makes me think about

how cool it would be to raise children

here

kind of in the jungle in nature all

these things and yeah I think about it a

lot I think that

in some ways I'm grateful that

I'm still single because

I'm probably significantly older than

the average person who's never been

married before but at the same time

hopefully I've had time to kind of

refine what I'm looking for in a partner

and I think I have a pretty good sense

of that now

and uh yeah I think when it when it when

it happens it'll it'll be good and

really excited to raise some wild kids

in the jungle in Costa Rica

and feed them lots of meat and organ

fruit yeah

right on well Paul it's been fun to

catch up there was a lot of big areas

that had changed since we last talked

and we got to really get in there and

hash them out we're gonna link up your

book we're going to link up your website

social media everything in the show

notes and I've just really enjoyed

following your journey and your

Evolution and the fact that you've been

so upfront as you've continued to Pivot

and

I just want to honor you and and thank

you for being so open to change and to

sharing that Journey with all of us and

thank you for coming on the show

it's great man thank you for having me

it's an honor to be here with you and uh

yeah I'm glad that people benefit from

what I'm putting out there I hope it's

helpful for people and I'm excited to

keep doing it because

you know I'm pretty my cup is

overflowing because I get to serve every

day and I live in Costa Rica and I've

got a great community and so I'm just

excited to keep making

educational stuff that's beneficial for

people and thank you for helping me get

this to more people so that they can

think about things and be curious and

hopefully benefit from all of it so I

appreciate you too thanks man thank you

let's do it again sometime of course

anytime now that you're done my

conversation with Paul you're going to

want to stick around here and catch my

chat with Dr lustig he's got a unique

perspective on insulin resistance so you

don't want to miss this I'll see you

over there

ultimately it's not what's in the food

it's what's been done to the food that

matters everything fructose does to the

mitochondria is