"Matter of Fact" ABC Australia
Summary
TLDRIn this insightful discussion, Robyn D'Angelo explores the complexities of race and privilege, particularly from the perspective of white individuals. She challenges the notion of colorblindness and discusses how white people often lack awareness of their own racial advantages. D'Angelo emphasizes the importance of acknowledging and confronting these issues to dismantle systemic racism. She also addresses the damaging impact of white progressives who, despite their good intentions, often perpetuate racial inequality due to their ignorance and defensiveness. The conversation highlights the need for continuous self-education and critical thinking to foster a more equitable society.
Takeaways
- 📚 The script discusses the concept of white privilege and how it allows white individuals to perceive themselves as unique and universal, without acknowledging the societal advantages they hold.
- 🤔 It raises the question of why those with power might feel fragile, suggesting that it stems from a lack of accountability for the impact of systemic racism and a lack of experience in dealing with racial discomfort.
- 🌏 The speaker highlights the segregated lives many white people lead, which insulates them from witnessing the effects of racism and being held accountable for their role in perpetuating it.
- 🔍 The interviewee, Robyn D'Angelo, shares her personal journey of realizing her white privilege, which began when she started working closely with people of color and having open conversations about race.
- 💬 D'Angelo emphasizes the resistance and hostility she faced when trying to discuss race with other white people, pointing to a broader societal reluctance to engage in authentic conversations about racism.
- 📉 She argues that the way society teaches about racism is flawed, making it difficult for white people to truly understand it, and that overcoming this requires effort to educate oneself.
- 👥 D'Angelo notes that even though history has seen white anti-racist advocates, the majority of white people today are often defensive and uninformed about racism.
- 🚫 The script criticizes the idea of being colorblind, asserting that ignoring race does not address the real-world implications and perpetuates inequality.
- 💔 D'Angelo claims that white progressives can cause significant daily damage to people of color through their ignorance and inaction, potentially more so than overt racists due to their influence in institutions.
- 👎 She challenges the arrogance and certainty of white progressives who believe they are free of racism, urging them to examine their role in perpetuating racial inequality.
- 👶 The younger generation is described as ill-equipped to deal with race due to being raised with colorblind ideology, which may lead to obliviousness and further racial tension in the workplace.
Q & A
Why do white people not have to face the same racial questions as people of color?
-White people often don't have to face racial questions due to their position in society, which allows them to see themselves as unique individuals outside of social forces and maintain their advantages and privileges without being held accountable for the impact of their systems or structures.
What does it mean for white people to feel 'fragile' in the context of race?
-White people may feel fragile because they are not often held accountable for the impact of their actions or systems, and they have not had to build their capacity to bear the discomfort of being challenged across race.
How did Robyn D'Angelo's experience working with people of color change her perspective on race?
-Working side by side with people of color allowed Robyn to see the world through a different lens, challenging her previous understanding and leading her to question what it means to be white in a deeply segregated and unequal society.
Why do white people often have uninformed opinions about race?
-White people often have uninformed opinions about race because society does not provide them with good information about racism, and they may not put in the effort to educate themselves on the subject.
What is the 'cocoon' that Robyn D'Angelo refers to in the context of white people's racial experiences?
-The 'cocoon' refers to the insular and comfortable racial atmosphere that white people often live in, which shields them from the realities and discomforts of racial inequality and challenges.
How does Robyn D'Angelo view the role of white progressives in perpetuating racial inequality?
-Robyn argues that white progressives can cause significant daily damage to people of color because they often believe they are not part of the problem and thus do not address the subtle, daily acts of racism that contribute to an atmosphere of inequality.
What is the issue with the idea of being 'colorblind' in the context of race?
-Being 'colorblind' is problematic because it ignores the very real meaning and impact of race in people's lives. It supports the structures that reproduce inequality by pretending that race does not matter, which is not reflective of the current reality.
Why does Robyn D'Angelo believe that the younger generation is not less racist than previous generations?
-The younger generation, raised with colorblind ideology, is ill-equipped to understand the meaning of race in their lives, which leads to obliviousness that can inadvertently create a hostile atmosphere for people of color.
How does Robyn D'Angelo define 'daily damage' in relation to white progressives and people of color?
-Daily damage refers to the ongoing, subtle acts of racism that white progressives may commit without realizing, which contribute to an atmosphere of inequality and frustration for people of color in their everyday lives.
What does Robyn D'Angelo suggest is necessary for white people to become effective advocates against racism?
-White people need to develop critical thinking skills, build a capacity for uncomfortable self-examination, and be willing to engage with the realities of racism in order to become effective advocates for change.
Outlines
😔 White Privilege and Lack of Accountability
In this paragraph, Robyn D'Angelo discusses the inherent racial dynamics where white individuals often remain oblivious to the impact of their privilege due to societal structures that shield them from the consequences of racial inequity. She explains that white people can view themselves as unique individuals, free from social forces, while inadvertently maintaining their advantages. D'Angelo also touches on the defensiveness that arises when white individuals, who are rarely held accountable, feel their racial comfort is challenged, leading to a backlash to restore their perceived entitlements.
😠 The Paradox of White Progressives Causing Daily Damage
Robyn D'Angelo challenges the notion that the most harm to people of color comes from overt racists, instead arguing that white progressives often cause more pervasive daily harm due to their conviction that they are not part of the problem. She emphasizes the difficulty of addressing racism when individuals are resistant to acknowledging their role in perpetuating racial inequality. D'Angelo calls for a more critical examination of one's own complicity in systemic racism and the need to dismantle the arrogance and certainty that hinders progress.
🤔 The Myth of Colorblindness and Its Impact
In this segment, D'Angelo dismantles the myth of colorblindness, arguing that claiming not to see race is both dishonest and harmful. She points out that racial perceptions significantly affect life experiences and that ignoring race does not equate to racial equality. D'Angelo asserts that pretending race does not matter supports the structures that perpetuate inequality. She advocates for a future where noticing race does not imply inequality, but acknowledges that we are not there yet and that pretending otherwise is detrimental.
😞 The Unintended Consequences of Obliviousness in the Younger Generation
Robyn D'Angelo expresses concern over the younger generation's inability to understand the implications of race in their lives due to being raised with colorblind ideology. She shares her observations from working with tech companies, where young employees are often unaware of the struggles their colleagues of color face, leading to an oblivious atmosphere that exacerbates racial tension and inequality. D'Angelo emphasizes the importance of recognizing and addressing racial dynamics to create a more inclusive environment.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Race
💡White Privilege
💡Racial Fragility
💡Segregation
💡Accountability
💡Colorblind Ideology
💡Racism
💡Advocacy
💡Uninformed Opinions
💡Institutional Racism
💡Daily Damage
Highlights
Robyn D'Angelo discusses the privilege and lack of awareness among white individuals in society.
White people often see themselves as unique individuals, oblivious to the social forces that shape their perspectives.
The benefits of white privilege include the ability to maintain advantages in an inequitable society.
White fragility arises from a lack of accountability for the impact of systemic racism.
Australian context is mentioned as deeply segregated, with white individuals often shielded from witnessing racism's effects.
White individuals feel entitled to their comfort and advantages, reacting negatively when these are challenged.
D'Angelo emphasizes the importance of white people recognizing their own sense of privilege.
She shares her personal journey of working with people of color and the eye-opening experiences it provided.
D'Angelo highlights the resistance and hostility she faced when discussing race with white individuals.
The transcript points out that white people often have uninformed opinions about racism due to societal ignorance.
D'Angelo argues that white progressives can cause daily damage to people of color through their actions and beliefs.
She challenges the notion that white progressives are less harmful than overt racists, emphasizing the subtle yet impactful damage they can cause.
The idea of being colorblind is critiqued as a way to avoid acknowledging the reality and impact of race in society.
D'Angelo discusses the younger generation's struggle with understanding race due to being raised with colorblind ideology.
She expresses concern that the younger generation is not less racist but may be ill-equipped to address racial issues.
D'Angelo concludes by emphasizing the need for white individuals to engage with and understand the experiences of people of color.
Transcripts
Robyn D'Angelo thank you so much for
giving us your time reading your book
and as a person of color myself I was
once again reminded of how race is such
a factor in our lives and how it poses
questions that people who were white
don't have to face why is that
well white people don't have to be aware
there are no consequences to our lack of
awareness in fact there are benefits you
know it allows us to see ourselves as
unique individuals you know outside of
you know the forces of socialization at
the same time it allows us to position
ourselves as just universal human
speaking from no particular perspective
and ultimately allows us to maintain our
advantages and our privileges within a
society that's inequitable across race
what you're saying then does raise the
question why would those who were
privileged why would those who have
power feel fragile well we are never
really held accountable for the impact
of our systems or structures you know
I've never really had to build my
capacity to bear the discomfort you know
of being challenged across race I'm
assuming it's very similar in the
Australian context we lived a deeply
segregated lives and I think in a lot of
ways being white is never really having
to bear witness to the pain of racism on
people of color and never being held
accountable for the pain that I
inadvertently caused people of color so
we kind of move through the world
through this very insular very
comfortable racial kind of atmosphere in
which we come to feel entitled to that
comfort and that advantage and so we
don't respond well when in any of that
is challenged it's as if it throws us
off our racial equilibrium and we lash
back in order to regain what we we think
is rightfully ours
right that something must be wrong if
you made me uncomfortable when you come
to write a book like they see you aware
of your own sense of privilege you
say in the book that white people often
have many opinions about race and that
those opinions are usually wrong how did
you unpack that yourself really it
happened when I began to work side by
side with people of color you know part
of being white as I could live my whole
life and be a fully educated adult and
really never work in any sustained
significant way or be in relationship
across race and I I was like a fish
being taken out of water and I began to
see the world through a very different
lens it kind of worked as a mirror if
you will right there experience was so
different from mine that while we tend
to focus on you know if we're gonna talk
about race let's talk about your
experience I began to see well then
what's my experience right well what
does it mean to be white in a society
that is deeply separate and unequal by
race and then in addition to having
those experiences with people of color
that incredible kind of gift of
relationship with them and in open
conversations with them I began to try
to talk to other white people and really
that's all you need to do and I was met
with so much resistance and hostility
and defensiveness and to be really
honest so much ignorance rate I mean yes
all white people have opinions about
racism but if you haven't really worked
hard to get good information those in
pinions just can't be informed because
nothing in society gives us good
information I mean you have to really
put effort into getting educated about
racism so I have opinions on lots of
things but that doesn't make them
informed right and there's a lot of
pressure on us not to have deep or
authentic conversations so all of that
kind of keeps us in this cocoon and
being in relationship and working side
by side with a lot of people color kind
of broke that open for me but but it's
an ongoing process because the forces to
come back into the cocoon if you will
are pretty strong you do make it clear
in the book that you're generalizing but
one of the points that you make is that
the way that we are taught about racism
makes it impossible for white people
to understand it is that really the case
because in history some of the greatest
anti-racist advocates some of the great
champions against racism some of the
great emancipation against slavery were
white people well I don't I don't think
you can avoid the messages of white
supremacy they circulate relentlessly
around us I think these were were were
more critical thinkers who probably had
relationships in their lives I mean the
fact that they risked their lives should
tell you the resistance they were up
against I'm not saying that no white
person does or could understand this
what I'm saying is the vast majority do
not and are pretty defensive about that
reality and that we need to begin to
think more critically and be willing to
build a capacity for pretty
uncomfortable examination and to process
if I didn't think white people could be
incredibly important advocates I
couldn't do what I do but all too often
we we fail at that and and very little
pushes us to kind of get back up and
keep going
there's something that you say in the
book I really wanted to drill down on
and you say it I believe that white
progressives caused the most damage to
people of color the most damage really
more than the racists of the Jim Crow
era of the United States more than those
who carried out lynchings in the United
States more than those of the alt-right
that we're seeing in America now the the
marches in in Charlottesville and
elsewhere that it is white progressives
who caused the most damage we'll keep in
mind that I said daily damage right so
all of the the people that you named I
mean those are extremes it does not mean
that they don't kind of create an
atmosphere of Terror for people of color
but the odds are in your daily life
you're not gonna run into an all-right
white nationalist who would be marching
in the streets you're gonna be dealing
with people like me and so I think the
reason people like me can be so
difficult in a daily
way is because we're so sure that we're
not the problem
we're so sure that really we're good to
go
and so we're not going to get racism on
the table I mean our institutions are
still reproducing racial inequality
regardless of how progressive I think I
am but if I think that I you know it's
not me I'm good to go
I'm gonna put my energy and just making
sure you know that I'm good to go right
I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you all my
evidence for why you know I'm free of
racism and so I'm trying to push against
that that arrogance and that certitude
right and and try to look at that kind
of more daily subtle things that create
an atmosphere that so often can be so
hostile and that can cause people of
color to go home from work you know
every day feeling frustrated and feeling
like well it's better to endure these
slights then try to speak back against
them in the book you talk about this
idea of people being colorblind of not
seeing color people who say that race
does not matter what's wrong with that
is that not what people should be aiming
for well first of all who do they say
that to nobody ever says it to me
they only we only say it when we want to
make sure that you know that I don't
notice your race right so it's just
patently not true maybe they'll go the
next step and say well of course I
noticed it but it has no meaning
it does have meaning it does have
meaning and and there are so much
empirical evidence that racial
perceptions are going to change you know
affect a people's life experiences so we
don't live in the spiritual world or you
know we we haven't come to a place where
race doesn't matter and so to pretend as
if we are in a place for race doesn't
matter is to basically hold inequality
in place I mean I'd like to get to a
world in which I don't notice your race
or if I do it has no meaning but that's
not the world we live in right now and
jumping over and pretending we're there
is only going to support the structures
that are continually reproducing
inequality
Robin I just want to finish on something
else you said in the book and you were
asked about the future and about the
younger generation and you say that they
are in fact becoming more racists are
you pessimistic about the future do you
see some improvement and in what way is
it that the younger generation is not
less racist than previous generations
what we're seeing is a generation that
was raised with this kind of colorblind
ideology and they are completely
ill-equipped to grapple with the meaning
of race in their lives so I've had the
opportunity lately to work with a lot of
tech companies and very very young
people I think the average age is is
under 30 and when we have these
dialogues they are just dumbfounded when
they hear the pain that there are very
few co-workers of color are in and how
how much their co-workers of color are
putting up with and navigating they have
no idea but they're having no idea is
not benign right they're obliviousness
has created an atmosphere that is taking
a really really high toll on the few
people that are there in their workplace
you know if I cannot tell you what it
means to be white if I have no idea I'm
not really gonna be able to hold the
experience of what it means not to be
white right I'm not even gonna be able
to engage with that and I'm probably
gonna end up minimizing it and
invalidating that because I I just want
to pretend that nothing's going on
because that's how it works for me
Robyn D'Angelo thank you again for
giving us your time
you
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