Dr. Edwin Bryant - Finding Krishna
Summary
TLDRThe speaker reflects on their spiritual journey in the late 70s, beginning with a vague Buddhist inclination and a deep prayer for existential guidance. They recount their unexpected arrival in Vrindavan, India, where they were deeply moved by the devotion of local practitioners. Despite initial cultural and aesthetic jarring, the speaker found themselves drawn to the Bhakti tradition, particularly Krishna consciousness, and its teachings, which they credit for setting them on a clear spiritual path, even as they navigated institutional challenges and personal growth.
Takeaways
- 🌟 The speaker reminisces about the 1960s and 1970s when people were more committed to spiritual practices like moving into ashrams, which contrasts with the modern, more consumer-driven approach to spirituality.
- 🏡 The speaker notes a shift from full-time commitment to ashrams to a more casual, lay practitioner approach at home, suggesting a commodification and absorption into consumer culture.
- 🧘♂️ Despite the changes, the speaker believes that genuine spiritual seekers can still find what they are looking for, even if it's not as prominent as in the past.
- 🚂 The speaker describes a journey to India, initially with vague spiritual intentions, and the unexpected experiences that led to a deeper spiritual awakening.
- 🌞 The vividness and intensity of the spiritual practices in India, such as the use of deities and colors, initially felt jarring to the speaker, highlighting the cultural and aesthetic differences.
- 🚌 The speaker recounts a pivotal moment of boarding a bus to Vrindavan without any clear intention, suggesting a sense of being led by a higher power or destiny.
- 🙏 The speaker was deeply moved by the devotion and surrender of the devotees in Vrindavan, which attracted him more than the theological aspects initially.
- 📚 The speaker acknowledges the influence of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's books in providing a clear and authentic spiritual tradition, despite some cultural biases in the teachings.
- 🌐 The speaker reflects on the importance of sincerity and humility in spiritual pursuits, recognizing that true spiritual growth requires surrender and grace.
- 🌌 The speaker discusses the concept of theism and the belief in a higher intelligence behind the order of the universe, which has been a consistent belief throughout his spiritual journey.
- 🌱 The speaker's journey from being a skeptic to embracing a spiritual path shows a transformation that was driven by a deep internal sincerity and a desire for existential guidance.
Q & A
What was the speaker's initial perception of spiritual practices in the West?
-The speaker felt that spiritual practices in the West were not as intense or committed as they were in the 1960s. He mentioned that people were moving into ashrams full-time during that period, but now it's more about lay practitioners at home, which he believes has become more commodified and absorbed into consumer culture.
Why did the speaker feel the need to go to India?
-The speaker felt the need to go to India to seek a more authentic and intense spiritual experience that he believed was lacking in the West. He wanted to put together his own spiritual journey and find a higher level of commitment and practice.
What was the speaker's initial reaction to the visual and auditory aspects of the spiritual practices he encountered in India?
-The speaker found the vividness of the deities, colors, and the loudspeakers playing music to be a bit jarring at first. He was not used to the aesthetic of the spiritual practices in India, which was very different from what he had experienced in the West.
How did the speaker end up in Vrindavan?
-The speaker ended up in Vrindavan after getting off a train and boarding a bus without any clear intention or knowledge of where it was going. He described this as a mysterious and possibly mystical experience, as he had no recollection of deciding to get on the bus.
What was the speaker's initial impression of the Krishna devotees in Vrindavan?
-The speaker was initially attracted to the Krishna devotees by their intensity, conviction, and happiness. He saw them as completely and utterly immersed in their spiritual practice, which he found compelling and attractive.
How did the speaker's perception of the Krishna tradition change over time?
-The speaker's perception of the Krishna tradition evolved from being initially unattracted and skeptical to becoming deeply involved and committed. He was drawn to the devotees' sincerity and the intensity of their practice, which he found to be what he was seeking.
What was the speaker's experience with the Iscon movement and how did it influence his spiritual journey?
-The speaker's experience with the Iscon movement was mixed. He appreciated the teachings of Srila Prabhupada and the authenticity of the Krishna bhakti tradition but also acknowledged the corruption and institutionalization that he observed within the movement. Despite these issues, he still considers Prabhupada to be one of his gurus.
How did the speaker's understanding of bhakti yoga and surrender evolve during his time in India?
-The speaker's understanding of bhakti yoga and surrender deepened during his time in India. He came to appreciate the total and utter humility and helplessness required in bhakti, and he saw this in the devotees he met. This experience helped him to understand the importance of grace and the need for sincere prayer.
What were the speaker's thoughts on the role of reason in his spiritual journey?
-The speaker believed that reason was a guide but not the ultimate arbitrator of his spiritual journey. He understood that reason alone could not provide him with the spiritual fulfillment he was seeking, and he was prepared to bypass reason in pursuit of a deeper spiritual experience.
How did the speaker's experience in India shape his views on theism and the existence of a higher intelligence?
-The speaker's experience in India reinforced his belief in theism and the existence of a higher intelligence. He saw the order in the universe as evidence of an intelligent designer and felt that this belief was more satisfying than alternatives such as eternalism or self-assembly.
Outlines
🌏 Spiritual Quest in the West and India
The speaker reflects on the spiritual movements of the 1960s and 1970s, noting the intense commitment of people who joined ashrams and the subsequent commercialization of spirituality. They mention their own journey, initially identifying as a Buddhist and feeling a disconnect with the vibrant colors and deities of Hinduism. The narrative includes their decision to travel to India in search of a deeper spiritual experience, which led to a transformative train ride and an unexpected encounter with a bus that changed the course of their journey.
🚌 A Mysterious Bus Ride to Vrindavan
The speaker recounts a seemingly mystical experience of boarding a bus without knowing its destination, ending up in Vrindavan. They describe their initial lack of knowledge about Krishna or bhakti, and their skepticism towards the garish appearance of Krishna devotees they had seen in the West. However, after spending time in a Krishna temple and witnessing the intense devotion of the followers, they were drawn to the community. The speaker emphasizes the sincerity and humility required in bhakti, and how they were moved by the devotees' complete surrender and happiness.
🙏 The Theist's Perspective on Divine Intelligence
The speaker delves into their theistic beliefs, arguing that the order of the universe implies the existence of an intelligent creator. They discuss the persistence of theistic arguments through various philosophical and scientific developments, including the Big Bang theory. The narrative shifts to a personal account of their deep prayer and sincerity during a bus ride in India, where they felt a profound connection to a higher power. This experience led them to Vrindavan and a deeper understanding of bhakti, emphasizing the importance of grace and surrender in spiritual growth.
🌟 Embracing Bhakti and the Krishna Tradition
The speaker shares their journey of embracing bhakti yoga and the Krishna tradition, despite initial skepticism and the challenges of institutionalization within the movement. They highlight the importance of personal experience over reason in their spiritual quest and the transformative impact of meeting sincere devotees. The speaker acknowledges the influence of Srila Prabhupada's teachings and books, which provided a clear and authentic spiritual path, despite some cultural biases of the time. They express a continued connection to the Krishna tradition, appreciating the potency of Prabhupada's teachings in making millions of devotees.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Ashrams
💡60s Guru
💡Krishna
💡Commodification
💡Buddhist
💡Agra
💡Matra
💡Bhakti Yoga
💡Theology
💡Grace
💡Hippie Culture
💡Sri Prabhupada
Highlights
The speaker reflects on the shift in spiritual practices from the 1960s to the present, noting a decrease in full-time commitment to ashrams and a commodification of spirituality.
The 1960s saw an intense commitment to spiritual gurus and ashrams, with people moving into Krishna and Shivananda ashrams, a trend that has since diminished.
The speaker's personal journey began with a vague Buddhist inclination and an openness to spiritual exploration, leading to a trip to India.
The vividness and aesthetic of Indian deities initially felt jarring to the speaker, contrasting with their initial Western spiritual exposure.
An unexpected encounter with a slow train and the decision to visit Agra led to a chance recommendation to visit Vrindavan, a significant spiritual place.
The speaker's experience of being a Westerner in India in the late 1970s was marked by curiosity from locals and a lack of modern technology.
A sincere recommendation from locals led the speaker to disembark at Mathura, despite initial reluctance and a mosquito-ridden night.
The speaker's decision to board a bus to Vrindavan without knowing its destination or having any intention to stay reflects a sense of surrender to fate.
Arriving in Vrindavan and staying for four years, the speaker was initially unattracted to Krishna devotion but was eventually drawn to the intensity and happiness of the devotees.
The speaker's spiritual journey was marked by a deep prayer for guidance and a recognition of higher intelligence, reflecting a theistic worldview.
The speaker's encounter with devotees in Vrindavan was a turning point, leading to a deep commitment to the Krishna tradition despite cultural and institutional challenges.
The speaker acknowledges the impact of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's teachings, despite some cultural and historical limitations.
The speaker's experience with the Krishna tradition was transformative, leading to a lifelong connection with the tradition and its practices.
The speaker discusses the importance of sincerity and humility in attracting divine grace, a key aspect of the bhakti yoga tradition.
The speaker's spiritual journey was not without skepticism, but an openness to experience and a readiness to bypass reason led to a profound transformation.
The speaker reflects on the challenges of institutionalization within the Krishna tradition and the importance of maintaining spiritual authenticity.
The speaker's narrative emphasizes the power of personal experience and the role of grace in spiritual awakening, beyond theological understanding.
Transcripts
yeah but you know i mean you know the
there were teachers that came to the
west i think i think the seeds are here
in the west you don't you know that i
mean there are ashrams here there are
yeah but not the same as the 60s and the
60s people would ma were moving into
these ashrams full time into krishna
ashrams into shivananda ashrams into
these you know siddha yoga ashrams
when these big sort of 60s guru came
came over there was this kind of intense
commitment you don't see that anymore
not in that level i'll just see a bit of
it but i mean
now we kind of lay practitioners at home
it's become more commodified maybe more
or
just been absorbed into consumer culture
even even yogis you know really with our
yoga mats on one hand and starbucks and
cup of coffee in the other you know so
in a sense you know
but yeah that you can still find it that
you know still there and certainly the
60s 70s and and and i knew i had to go
to india just to seek that just to sort
of put all that together
um
but yeah yeah you know the bus was um uh
you know so i was going from i was i was
vaguely thinking i was a buddhist
because i hadn't i didn't really think i
was a buddhist but i was kind of still
the buddhist thing and i was heading i
did yeah i didn't hadn't run into
anything i found it wasn't a tiny bit
jarring at first you know the big the
all-agari
deities and you know the the you know
the oranges and the blues and the
yellows and the and the durgas and the
hanumans and the very the the the
vividness of it all was a tiny bit uh
jarring aesthetically
of course they add these speakers
remember they get a bit of a loud like
the food has been blasting on the
crackling speakers
so anyway then then i i'm sitting on
this train
and i actually i'm going to see the
title i'm a bit ashamed of myself
because i'm thinking i'm not here to be
a tourist but oh why the hell let me
just you know the train was sort of so i
thought i'd go to agra i might as well
you know just have a look
and and and the train was a really slow
one you know i hadn't actually taken a
lot of trains and i i didn't realize
that a passenger train is at that time
stops at every tree yeah right
you don't want to take a few days
two hour journey now it's all a bit
different but you have to get expressed
well i haven't quite you know figured
that out at that early point but i'm
getting on the right side i'm getting
i'm on this train you know people in the
compartment at that time they've never
seen seen westerners before we're
talking about you know 78 79.
so even tvs i mean obviously they were
there but no peeps not that everybody
had a tv there might be one tv in a
whole street and people would come
around and have a look at whatever was
on you know so it was early days
you know still bullet bullocks and and
plows there would not be very few
tractors you know
it changed very fast
at that time you stole it was still very
much the end of that kind of we might
call it medieval whatever you want to
call it but pre you know obviously
technology was there there was only one
car the ambassador car a couple of cars
they weren't all now all the cars you
see no there was the
chunky unhappy you know
but anyway so i'm sitting on the you
know chatting and you know i'm like some
some sort of a weird mix between a
hippie and a sadhu right because i i
hadn't really
situated myself in a tradition at that
point so i was just putting it all
together
from my own in make-believe ideas
and um
and the people were saying
oh and i was telling him it was a
spiritual quest and i was looking for
truth and i you know and and i was never
going to go back to the west and i was
just i had no money and i was just
traveling and
and they said oh you have to get down to
mata mata matra oh yeah it's a big
spiritual place get down get done i'm i
i you know i never heard of mothra over
in darwin right when mothra being the
train station for vrindav in his matra
yeah so but they were so sincere and the
train was taking so long and i would you
know didn't have anything better to do
so i got down at the mantra i just got
down off the train i don't i didn't have
a ticket or anything
and so
um back then you know you know collect
to come and i just say
collector never seen a westerner say i
would just say and i was learning hindi
so i would say best i could you know
yeah
right and so yeah
you could do that back then so anyway um
it got down on the in on matra
and i you know stepped under a tree
because you know i didn't have any money
and i just remember what
what an awful place why does everybody
was built rich because it's near the
train station right
of any train station it's a bit you know
so there it was just i got bitten to
death by mosquito it was awful night so
then i get up i think that was a bad
idea i should have just stayed on the
train so i'm going to get back on the
train and then this bus comes and that's
why i think what you're talking about
and this bus comes
and this is this was very this is
strange and i'm not going to go so far
as to say it was mystical
but it
but i but honestly
i had no idea where the bus was going i
had no reason to get on the bus i had no
intention of staying there
all i remember and i have a clear maybe
now after 50 years or whatever it is
my mind is making parts of this up i
don't know all i can say is
i and and this was the case even
five years after i i'm still saying
saying the same story that i'm telling
you now so it's not just time because i
had the i have the same
recollection of it much much closer to
you know a few years after it
i remembered seeing the bus
not having any reason to pay attention
to it's just a bus coming down the road
my next memory i'm sitting on the back
of the bus
and i had there's nothing in between
there was no conscious deliberation you
know what why would i want to get on
this bus where is it going why
not i was going to get back on the train
i'm sitting on the back of the bus and
it's going to grind around
so i there might be something a little
mystical about it or maybe i'm just
maybe i'm just
fuzzy in the memory but that that's the
story i have to share you know i'm
sitting on the back of the bus that's
all i can remember bus goes to brynden
and that was it i stayed there for four
years
i got off the bus you knew what was that
you knew what was happening nothing
nothing
knew nothing right i didn't know
anything about you know krishna or
bhakti i had not not even in my dabbling
uh in the west right i was reading more
of these kind of hippy dippy type of
things like siddhartha and carlos
castanedas i was reading that kind of
druggy things you know and right
drug you know druggy sort of
spirituality but not not uh not nothing
like embedded in a real tradition or i
knew nothing about krishna i'd seen
krishnas in
in the streets in the oxford street you
know and they just they look like a
raggedy bunch of you know i was
fascinated by them i
it you know i i was quite happy to be as
extreme as that but it didn't it didn't
attract me
at that time yeah i didn't find that
attractive it seemed a little
garish and a little in your face and a
little
slightly you know it wasn't very elegant
it wasn't it didn't they didn't have any
i just didn't find it very attractive
what can i tell you aesthetically then
you know banging away on symbols and
and so what changed your mind then when
you've gone about off the bus what what
changed my mind is i got you know i did
spend some time in the krishna temple
there
and watched having no money and having a
place to sleep that wasn't you know kind
of full of mosquitoes that wasn't a
problem because you know hippie culture
i'd already had a little bit of training
you know just being a hippie you know
for if you know
and you're young
you're young you're you think how'd we
at this point i would have been 21 or 21
i guess
right
so yeah yeah that's all right sleep on
the floor and get bitten a bit when
you're that age yeah that's all it's all
a big yeah i mean yeah
i'm in india i mean i was just like
blown away here i am i mean india i mean
that was just a walk down the streets
just feeling wow i'm here
you know
so what attracted me
or was
the intensity of the devotees they had
completely and utter given up everything
well i had two perhaps but they would
completely and utterly immersed with
full conviction
in this tradition and i said and they
were happy they were detached
they were blissful
they were just totally devoted they were
convinced they had everything i wanted
and i i so it was the devotees that
attracted me
initially not the theology theology and
it's a mix of indians and westerners
at that time there were westerners in
that yeah it was a mix but at that time
there were westerners that used you know
not not that stopped you know within a
few years but there were people like me
that were coming in at the tail end of
the 70s uh in the 70s and they were just
hippies some of them had met krishnas in
the west
and you know wanted to come to the site
place of origin and they were hippies by
disposition and maybe they were heading
over to india anyway but they knew
something about krishna and they thought
you know that was one of their stopovers
so they might have been that sort of
person there
and but they're
but i i was probably unique and i
totally and utterly stumbled there i
didn't even know i never heard of brenda
when i literally
got off the train just because these
people were so sincere i just didn't
want to disappoint them as aurora get
down you know
so yeah so that you know i like to think
i was i was called but one other thing
part of the story though
um adam
is when i was up in dharansala and i
knew that this is not my spiritual home
i remember sitting on the bus
and i
and i can remember with the the most
intensity
and i understood there's something
higher than myself so in that sense i've
always been a theist
and i've always you know i mean the
theistic argument has always been
whether it's modern-day intelligent
design whether it's ramanuja in the 12th
century commenting on vedanta the basics
and whether it's nyaya the logicians the
basic position of the theist is that
there must be intelligence behind the
order of the universe so that argument's
never going to go anywhere whatever
discovery science comes up with whatever
they go into string theory and then some
spring theory and whatever they end up
with there is always going to be a space
there's always going to be that you know
how does this all come to be how is this
highly intricate structured there must
be intelligence so i
that that
why just the question why
because of order
because that seems like for a certain
type of thinker like myself and theists
and and probably majority of human
thinkers
they're then the explanation for order
that it's it's it it's a more satisfying
explanation to say there must be
intelligence behind order rather than to
say order just is or order self
assembles
right which you'd have to say if you
accept a big bang model because right
because before big bang the greek
thinkers and materialistic thinkers
would thought that the world just was
eternal so you didn't have to deal with
causal explanations you don't have to
say what caused it if you say it's
eternal so the greek all the greek
philosophers thought it was eternal and
and that was a problem for christians up
until big bang because christians you
know the bible talks about creatiox
nihilo
but materialists could say why are you
looking for causal explanations it just
was but with big bang
now you have a
you know we now you have
we can't talk about a moment in time
because before big bang there was no
time but nonetheless you have um a
moment let's just say that and then and
now you have to so now you have a much
more pressing question but why what what
are the
circumstances and
circumstances surrounding that moment
but anyway
irrespective of any of that
so intelligence
strikes
theistic mind as being a better
explanation than then no they're no
intelligence that like that things
either self-order or or that they're
eternal and there is no cause
i i don't know why we're taking this uh
this time oh you're on the bus you're in
the bus in the north of india and i knew
that there was a higher intelligence
right
right
and i deeply deeply deeply prayed more
deep it was a deep right right yeah
that's what i remember yeah
whatever it is whoever you know please
help me please help right seeking truth
and i and i knew i couldn't find it with
my own
mental
and i knew i wasn't really going to find
it in some book or some theology you
know i mean i knew that it had to be
i would had to be grace i think i
understood that there had to be grace
and i i didn't know then but i but now
i've come to understand that if you're
really really sincere you get that grace
so i was actually sincere
looking at it now that was a deeply
sincere moment deeply sincere
and the other thing the other thing
about bhakti is total and utter humility
and helplessness
right all the ramanuja's you know the
theologians talk about this we were just
reading chaitanya the other day more
humble in a blade of grass you know
that's when we attract the attention the
grace of bhagavan so i didn't know any
of that and then now i'm just i've been
imposing that though
right now but i was in a deep deep place
of utter helplessness utter sincerity
utter prayer but from a place of plea
just not asking for anything other than
existential guidance
and we didn't and and and that was and
within 10 days i was in brindavan with
all that what i just said
number one
another reason to get off that train
number two i'm i'm finding myself on the
back of a bus number three when i get to
in vrindavan everyone's saying
and next thing i end up in this krishna
temple that had no attraction to that i
had no you know i wasn't no connection
with
and there i met the devotees and that
that then i instantly
saw
that that's what i want that level and
you weren't skeptical i suppose i mean
because i i assume i mean for me meeting
at least what we call the harry krishnas
in london i had i had that rational
training you know and i had that that
skeptical mind that i brought to it
right i couldn't let go i couldn't give
over to to believe i mean you saw they
were happy i saw also those people are
happy and you just kind of think
i thought yeah are they kidding
themselves right yeah
like something holds me back for i
didn't jump in yeah yeah well i i think
maybe the difference there was i was
already committed to giving my life up
to it so i was prepared to bypass reason
i i i'd understood reason was not going
to give me what i was looking for so i'd
unders i don't i'd come to a place where
you know philosophy and philosophizing
and all these so-called great yeah they
are not they cannot help me on what i
want so i knew i that reason was my
guide but wasn't going to be the
ultimate arbitrator of what i thought
so therefore i was looking for
experience and i was ready to get like
the hitchhike to india with nothing no
money and spend months and all of the
adventures and dangers and so forth
so when i so when i saw that they were
experiencing what i was seeking
the theology took a while to sink in i
was it was bloody weird mate like god
with the flu and blue why can't it be
pink with a banjo you know i mean
okay the reason i mean it's not that i
get got rid of reason that they took a
while for all that to sink in and they
still i mean of course i i didn't stay
with the krishnas that was my starting
you know that i owe my spiritual life i
feel
to that experience
and i stayed in the ass room for for a
few years in the city
so i i definitely feel i mixed feelings
you know because i certainly got
a real real start to my spiritual
journey there but you know the astronaut
became all embroiled with
institutionalization all right so at a
certain point i i had to leave you know
it wasn't my home anymore
but um
but the devotees back then they really
really in the 60s and 70s and even to
the 80s even um
that was the real thing they were
whatever may have been going on in the
higher uh
echelons of the institution and the
corruption and the whole guru egos and
all the
devotees were really surrendered they
were performing bhakti yoga in the
deepest possible way
they would surrender to the you know to
their to bhagavan they were engaging in
incredible tapas
austerities and they you know they were
given everything everything nobody owned
this was sri prabhupada's still there
no he just left i missed him by a year
and a half
right i'm kind of glad that i did in a
sense because
um
you know i'm kind of a guy old school if
you kind of give your word you you sort
of stick to it so if i had to take an
initiation from prabhupada i probably
would have felt
moral or a spiritual
to stay in it
but the fact that i didn't and that you
know that i didn't feel any any
compulsions about leaving it when the
time was right to leave it but um no i
never met him but you know i i still
consider him to be
one of my gurus even though i never met
him because
his books
really really you know i was just a
hippie reading siddhartha right and then
just stumbling about but the books
really gave me clear tradition based
authentic in this in a sense of lineage
basically sort of a sense um guys so
even though there's some somewhat
corruption and and disappointment around
the iscon movement you still think
prabhapad is it has integrity and no
question yeah right i mean you know he
said a lot of things in his books that i
that one shudders at now you know he was
in the sense that in cultural sense in
the culture yes
he was a male brahmin of the turn of the
19th you know the 19th 20th century so
or he had what we now are now call you
know certain sexist
certain elitists certain castes types of
um you know that was just his cultural
mindset but
you know one has to be mature about that
and and situate him in his time but
if you can push all that aspect aside
the actual krishna bhakti is
that's i mean he made millions of
devotees
so
that there is a potency in that in that
aspect of his teaching so
if people you know if i don't really
read his books and i mean nowadays i you
know it's been many many decades since i
really read those books but they
they did they trigger and i remained
within the krishna tradition
other branches of that and you're still
in that now right still in that you're
still connected
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