Why Startups Hate .NET and C#
Summary
TLDRIn this video, Nick discusses the question of why .NET and C# are not as popular among startups compared to other frameworks and languages, despite being free, cross-platform, and fast. He analyzes Reddit comments and LinkedIn job data, highlighting factors like the preference for JavaScript in younger teams, the full-stack capabilities of JavaScript, and legacy perceptions of .NET as a corporate tool. He also addresses misconceptions about .NET's cost and openness and points out that C# remains popular, ranking fifth in the latest Stack Overflow survey. The video encourages viewers to share their thoughts on the topic and reminds them that popularity varies by market and that there are plenty of opportunities for .NET and C# developers.
Takeaways
- 🤔 The video discusses why .NET and C# might not be as popular as other frameworks or languages, especially in startups.
- 📊 The script references job market data from platforms like LinkedIn and Indeed, showing that while .NET and C# jobs may be fewer, they are still significant in number.
- 🌐 It highlights that .NET is cross-platform and fast, dispelling myths about its capabilities.
- 📝 The speaker suggests that the popularity of JavaScript and Python among younger developers and in universities contributes to their preference in startups.
- 💼 There's a perception that .NET and C# are associated with legacy thinking and are not as modern as other languages.
- 📚 The video mentions that startups often prefer full-stack JavaScript due to better tooling, libraries, and frameworks.
- 🔒 There's a misconception that .NET and C# are not free or open source, which might deter some startups.
- 👥 The speaker argues that the popularity of a language or framework doesn't dictate its value or necessity for every developer.
- 📈 According to the latest Stack Overflow survey, C# is the fifth most popular programming language, indicating it remains widely used.
- 🌟 The video concludes by emphasizing that while .NET and C# may not be the most popular, they are still very much in demand and relevant in the industry.
- 💻 The speaker encourages developers to continue using the tools and languages they prefer, regardless of trends.
Q & A
Why does the video discuss the popularity of .NET and C# among startups?
-The video discusses the popularity of .NET and C# among startups in response to a Reddit post that questions why these technologies are not as popular as others, especially in the context of startups, despite being free, cross-platform, and fast.
What is the new course launched on Dom train mentioned in the video?
-The new course launched on Dom train is called 'From Zero to Hero Docker for Developers,' which aims to teach everything about Docker, from the basics to advanced topics like security and best practices.
What is the main observation made by the person who posted on Reddit regarding .NET and C#?
-The main observation made by the Reddit poster is that, based on LinkedIn jobs, .NET and C# are often not chosen for backend development, especially when compared to Java or Node.js.
How does the video address the perception of .NET and C# being less popular for startups?
-The video addresses this perception by analyzing comments from a person with experience working with startups, discussing reasons such as the tendency of younger teams to prefer JavaScript, the full-stack capabilities of JavaScript, legacy thinking around .NET and C#, and misconceptions about the cost and openness of .NET and C#.
What are some of the reasons startups might prefer JavaScript over .NET and C# according to the video?
-Some reasons startups might prefer JavaScript over .NET and C# include younger teams being more comfortable with JavaScript, the full-stack capabilities and better tooling for JavaScript, easier hiring for JavaScript positions, and the perception of .NET and C# as having a legacy image.
What does the video suggest about the misconception that .NET and C# are not free or open source?
-The video suggests that despite .NET and C# being free and open source, there is a lingering misconception that they are not, which might deter some startups from adopting them.
How does the video refute the claim that .NET and C# are not suitable for multi-threading applications?
-The video refutes this claim by explaining that .NET's concurrency model, especially with async/await, makes it easier to handle multi-threading without the complexities associated with traditional threading models.
What does the video say about the popularity of .NET and C# in the job market?
-The video indicates that while .NET and C# might not be as prevalent in startups, especially in certain locations like London, they are still very popular and in high demand in the job market, particularly in larger companies and the finance sector.
What is the position of C# in the latest stack overflow survey of 2023 mentioned in the video?
-According to the video, in the latest stack overflow survey of 2023, C# is ranked as the fifth most popular programming language.
What advice does the video give to developers regarding the popularity of programming languages?
-The video advises developers not to worry about the popularity of programming languages too much, as there are plenty of jobs available for .NET and C# developers, especially in established companies. It also emphasizes that being one of the most popular languages is sufficient.
What does the video suggest about the importance of being up-to-date with the latest developments in technology?
-The video suggests that being up-to-date with the latest developments in technology is important, as it helps developers make informed decisions about which technologies to adopt and use, and it also helps in dispelling misconceptions about certain technologies.
Outlines
🤔 Popularity of .NET and C# in Startups
Nick discusses the question of why .NET and C# might not be as popular as other frameworks or languages, particularly in startups. He references a Reddit post and explores the comments and claims made there. The video aims to understand the reasons behind the perceived lack of popularity, inviting viewers to share their thoughts. Nick also promotes a new course on Docker for developers, highlighting its importance and the expertise of the author, Dan Clark. He provides a discount code for the first 400 viewers. The discussion then turns to the reasons behind the limited adoption of .NET in startups, including a comparison of job postings and the observation that startups tend to favor languages like Java and Node.js over .NET.
📊 Reasons Behind .NET and C# Selection in Startups
The second paragraph delves into specific reasons why .NET and C# might not be chosen by startups, as suggested by a comment from C Diggs, who has experience working with startups. The reasons include a preference for younger teams who are more comfortable with JavaScript, the advantage of JavaScript for full-stack development with better tooling and library availability, and the perception of .NET and C# as having legacy thinking. Nick also mentions that despite .NET being cross-platform and fast, the old connotations of .NET being used by 'old people in suits' persist. He acknowledges that Microsoft is trying to change this perception but habits are hard to break. The paragraph also touches on the misconception that .NET is expensive and not free, which might deter startups from adopting it.
🔍 Market Perception and Language Popularity
In the final paragraph, Nick wraps up the discussion by emphasizing that not every language or tool needs to be the most popular to be successful. He points out that while some startups may not choose .NET and C#, there are still plenty of jobs available for developers skilled in these technologies, especially in established companies. He also references the latest Stack Overflow survey, which ranks C# as the fifth most popular programming language, indicating that it is still widely used and valued. Nick encourages viewers not to worry about the popularity contest and to focus on their skills and the value they bring as developers.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡.NET
💡C#
💡Startups
💡Cross-platform
💡Open Source
💡Node.js
💡Java
💡Full Stack
💡Legacy Thinking
💡Concurrency Model
💡Stack Overflow
Highlights
Nick discusses the popularity of .NET and C# in comparison to other frameworks and languages, particularly in startups.
The video explores reasons behind .NET and C# not being as popular as other technologies like Node.js or Java.
Nick invites viewers to share their thoughts on the topic and to keep the discussion civilized.
Introduction of a new course on Dom train called 'From Zero to Hero: Docker for Developers'.
The course aims to teach everything about Docker, from basics to advanced security and best practices.
Author Dan Clark's extensive experience with Docker is highlighted, emphasizing the course's practical insights.
A limited-time discount code is offered for the first 400 viewers to claim a 15% discount on the Docker course.
Nick reads a Reddit post questioning the popularity of .NET among startups, especially in India.
Comparison of job postings for .NET, Java, and JavaScript software engineers on job platforms.
Observation that younger teams tend to prefer JavaScript and Python over C# for programming.
Discussion on the full-stack capabilities of JavaScript and its advantages for startups.
Legacy thinking around C# and .NET as being associated with older, more traditional enterprises.
Microsoft's efforts to overcome the legacy image and promote modern features of .NET and C#.
The impact of past decisions on .NET's image, such as the OmniSharp and dotnet watch issues.
Dispute over the claim that fear of multi-threading in C# affects its adoption in startups.
Debate on whether the disdain for object-oriented programming affects the choice of C# in startups.
Contrasting views on whether C# and Java are considered too mainstream or not hip enough for startups.
Historical reasons such as Microsoft's past monopoly and its effect on .NET's adoption.
Misperceptions about the cost of .NET and C#, with clarifications on their free and open-source status.
Nick's personal experience observing the use of .NET in UK startups versus large companies.
The importance of recognizing the diversity of programming language preferences and ecosystems.
C#'s ranking as the fifth most popular programming language according to the latest Stack Overflow survey.
Encouragement for developers not to worry about the popularity contest and focus on their skills.
Nick concludes by inviting viewers to share their thoughts on why .NET and C# might not be as popular as other languages.
Transcripts
hello everybody I'm Nick and every now
and then we get a post like this on
Reddit asking why isn't.net as popular
as other Frameworks or why isn't c-sharp
as popular as other languages especially
on startups if they're both free
cross-platform and very very fast faster
than the vast majority of what is out
there if compared to things like node
for example or Javas we can see here
well in this video I want to take a look
at the comments of this post and the
claims of this post as well and try to
see if we can figure out why that is the
case because it is certainly the case as
always I want to know your thoughts so
please leave a comment down below at any
point if you have something to say and
please keep it civilized c sharpen.net
as just languages and tools and if you
like using a tool it doesn't mean that
everyone has to like it if you like our
content and you want to see more make
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check out my courses on domtrain.com now
before I move on I'd like to let you
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you see right now in your screen to
claim your discount now back to the
video okay so first let's read this post
so why isn't.net popular among startups
so is there any specific reason why
especially in India which is where this
person is located I am assuming I don't
tend to use dotnet for backend
especially if it is open source encross
platform now the main observation is
claiming to be based on LinkedIn jobs
and it's comparing it with things like
Java or node which are picked over.net
now if I go on something like indeed for
example and I say dot net software
engineer then what you're going to see
is 747 jobs in London and if I say
something like Java software engineer
then clearly you see quite a few more
and if I say JavaScript which can mean
anything really but you can't really say
node.js software engineer then you're
gonna see even more over here so
depending on your location you might see
more or less jobs for C shop and dotnet
but they're still very high in fact if I
change those sales results and I said
for the whole of England they will
pretty much match or exceed what Java
has to offer in England but what I want
to take a look at is this comment over
here by C Diggs which actually goes in
depth with concrete examples in terms of
why.net and C shop isn't really picked
so in terms of background the person is
saying that they have been working
exclusively with startups for the past
two years plus so things like series C
uh y combinator startup and so on and so
forth and one of the main things is that
they propose C sharp at one startup to
refactor the existing back end which was
in node and they got so much pushback
even though they did not expect it that
they end up writing five blog posts
about it which I highly recommend you
check out as well I'm gonna put a link
to this Reddit post in the description
if you want to take a look but let's
start with the first one so startups
tend to skew younger and younger teams
that are more comfortable with
JavaScript that is certainly true
c-sharp isn't really a starter language
if you say getting started with
programming you're probably gonna see
JavaScript and python as the two main
things and they're also the two main
languages are being taught in
universities so there's a very valid
reasons why a younger team with younger
developers would go straight away to
JavaScript because not only it's easier
to understand and work with but it's
also easier to hire for now the second
point which is also a very valid one is
that startups starting to work with full
stack and JavaScript is better for full
stack work that is basically undeniable
not only the tooling is better but
availability in libraries and Frameworks
is way way better and you can adapt your
knowledge both for the front end and the
back end so you can find the job easier
which means people looking for
developers can't find the developer
easier as well which leads to that being
a better option for startups it can also
mean that because it's so much
availability you can get someone for
cheaper while social developers tend to
be more expensive as well now the third
point is one of the most important ones
and I would actually start this whole
list with this one which is there's a
lot of Legacy thinking around cshop and
Dot net this is certainly true yes it is
cross-platform yes it is extremely fast
faster than most of things out there yes
you can use it on Linux Mac
um whatever you want but the old
connotations of dotnet being this old
people with suits use dot net it's still
pretty much how people think when they
think of C sharpen.net which is not so
much the case for things like rust go or
even node now the reason much Microsoft
can do with that because they keep
trying to do their best with showing
that the tooling we have and the
language is very fast and we have new
modern features and so on so it's just a
situation where all the habits die hard
and to be honest I think that Java also
suffers from the same problem to a
degree the Legacy thinking idea but
because it was open source from the
beginning it doesn't have that negative
aspect as well that it needs to carry
over now the fourth point is standard
image for a few bad decisions now yes
the Omni shop to dev kit thing and the
dotnet watch Fiasco yes those are
important points but I don't really
think that people outside.net really saw
them or care about them so I would kind
of dismiss that point this is more of a
point for people who are already
using.net and C shop not those looking
to adopt it I don't really think that
these types of people saw any of this
now don't really agree on the seventh
point which is fear of multi-threading I
think this is more of a problem in Java
than in dot net things like locking
object lifetimes resource sharing it
isn't so much of a big problem mainly
because of the concurrency model we have
with a white async that you don't really
need to worry about much of the
threading aspect if you really need to
work on a multi-threading application
then you're sort of a certain type of
developer which wouldn't have an issue
using C sharp in the first place so I
don't really agree with this point too
much I also don't really agree with
Point 8 which is disdained for object
oriented programming yes oop is a bit
frowned upon nowadays and some of those
ideas are pretty outdated and bad or
considered bad by many including myself
there's some things in op I really
really hate and at some point if you
want me can make a video on that but I
don't think the fact that c-sharp is an
OP language is the reason why it's not
being picked technically JavaScript is
also an OP language so what point are
you really trying to make here here it
can still be used in a functional way or
a non-oop way so you don't have to write
it in an oop fashion also point and
there's a line of thinking that C sharp
and Java are too mainstream I don't
really agree with that I would argue
that JavaScript and python are way way
way more mainstream than C sharp and
Java so what exactly you're trying to
say yes rust is less mainstream and more
hip or whatever at this point but this
will change because it's part of the
natural progression of a language now if
we take a look at the other comments you
will also see the same sort of idea as
0.3 from the previous which is well
historic reasons people just hate
Microsoft they think Microsoft Monopoly
they think Windows only and so on and
that's why it is not being used other
people point out that startups did not
get the memo that.net is no longer
expensive but I would argue if you are a
developer in a startup you would
probably know the latest and greatest
and enough about it so you would know
that c sharpen.net are not expensive and
looking at this reply over here actually
just shows that yes people still don't
know that c sharpen.net are free for
example is it not expensive anymore how
is it compared to node where node is
actually free completely and the answer
is both C sharp and net are also free
and then the person says oh I was
confused because I was thinking Visual
Studio license which Community version
is free for small teams only and then
the answer is small with a lot of air
quotes it can be used if you have under
1 million Revenue which by the way it's
a very very low Revenue so I don't like
this argument you are better off with
rider here now in other answers this
must be original here in the UK it is
used extensively in startups unless
companies alike I've personally seen it
way more in large companies and not too
many large companies I have worked with
some of those some of the biggest
commands here in the UK and I can tell
you yes it is used quite a bit
especially in finance but it is not as
used in startups especially in London
which is where I live so as you can see
even from the replies to these comments
over here there is still this
understanding that for some reason C
sharp is not free or open source or
close platform and that's why it's not
chosen but you have to keep in mind that
in 2023 you never had more options and
not everyone will like the exact same
thing not every Market is the same not
every tool is the same as every
ecosystem is the same not every country
is the same and that is fine not
everyone has to use.net you don't have
to feel like you belong somewhere to
enjoy a language for the love of God
there's F-sharp developers and all five
of them love F sharp and nobody can tell
them anything about it so you don't have
to feel like everyone has to be using
your language you will find a job you
will find the.net job and see shop job
everywhere really and that's for the
years to come we don't have to be the
most popular you just have to be one of
the most popular in fact if we take a
look at the latest stack of the flow
service of 2093 and we only look to real
programming languages c-sharp is number
five so JavaScript python typescript
Java and C sharp so being fifth out of
however many is extremely extremely
popular yes everybody likes rust and go
but they're all the way down here and
kotlin down here Ruby don't hit Dart
down here and Swift down here so don't
worry you won't be out of a job anytime
soon and in fact 9 out of 10 startups
will fail so you don't have to worry too
much about them because the money is
elsewhere in the established companies
and we have plenty of those and plenty
of jobs for c-sharp developers but now I
wanna know from you what do you think C
sharpen.net isn't really picked compared
to other languages by startups or
companies in general well that's all I
have for you thank you very much for
watching and as always keep coding
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