Economist Joseph Stiglitz on Pro-Palestine campus protests, Trump and rethinking freedom
Summary
TLDRIn this insightful podcast, Professor Joseph Stiglitz, a Nobel Prize-winning economist, discusses the conflict between the freedom to protest and the freedom to learn, particularly in the context of student activism on university campuses. He challenges the dominant ideology of neoliberalism, which he argues has led to increased inequality and a fertile ground for authoritarianism. Stiglitz advocates for a shift towards 'progressive capitalism' or 'rejuvenated social democracy,' emphasizing the importance of public investment, regulation, and progressive taxation. He also addresses the complexities of free trade, the role of government in managing trade agreements, and the need for a future-oriented industrial policy. Throughout the conversation, Stiglitz draws on his experiences and insights to provide a nuanced perspective on the balance between economic freedom and social responsibility, and the potential for a more equitable and sustainable economic system.
Takeaways
- 📚 The freedom to protest can sometimes conflict with the freedom to learn, highlighting the need for balance and respect for all parties involved.
- 💡 Neoliberalism, the dominant ideology post-war, promised growth and prosperity through deregulation and lower taxes but has been critiqued for increasing inequality.
- 🔄 Stiglitz argues for a shift from neoliberalism to 'Progressive Capitalism,' which emphasizes regulation, competitive markets, and consideration for the well-being of workers, communities, and the environment.
- 🤔 The right's inconsistent embrace of neoliberal principles, such as advocating for freedom while also supporting protectionist policies, indicates a lack of coherent intellectual philosophy.
- 🌎 Free trade agreements are often 'managed trade' designed to benefit corporate interests, rather than truly free and open markets.
- ⚖️ There are situations where a degree of coercion can enhance overall freedom, such as environmental regulations that protect public health and the planet.
- 👥 The success of societies is due to a balance of public and private institutions with checks and balances to prevent the abuse of power.
- 🏛️ Academic freedom is crucial for fostering critical thought and debate, and it should be protected from political interference.
- 👮♂️ The involvement of police in university protests should be a last resort, as it can lead to unnecessary conflict and potential long-term consequences for students.
- 🌱 Investment in people, R&D, and infrastructure is essential for economic growth and societal well-being.
- 🌿 Progressive capitalism can drive a green transition that benefits both the environment and the economy, dispelling the notion of trade-offs between ecology and prosperity.
Q & A
What is the main theme of Joseph Stiglitz's book 'The Road to Freedom'?
-The main theme of 'The Road to Freedom' is a critique of neoliberalism and an exploration of how a good society can be created through what Stiglitz calls 'Progressive capitalism.'
How does Stiglitz argue that neoliberalism has contributed to societal issues?
-Stiglitz argues that neoliberalism, with its emphasis on unfettered markets and deregulation, has led to increased inequality and deprivation, which in turn has created a fertile ground for authoritarianism and populism.
What is the relationship between economic freedom and political freedom according to Stiglitz?
-Stiglitz contends that contrary to the belief of some economists like Hayek and Friedman, economic freedom does not necessarily lead to political freedom. Instead, he suggests that a balance must be struck where one person's freedom does not infringe upon another's.
How does Stiglitz view the role of government in a capitalist society?
-Stiglitz advocates for a regulated form of capitalism where the government plays a significant role in ensuring the well-being of workers, communities, and the environment, moving away from the sole focus on shareholder value maximization.
What does Stiglitz believe is the impact of free trade agreements on society?
-Stiglitz criticizes so-called free trade agreements, stating that they were more about managed trade for the benefit of corporate interests, particularly multinationals, rather than truly free trade which could benefit society as a whole.
How does Stiglitz respond to the argument that government interventions are always inefficient?
-Stiglitz counters this by pointing out that private sector institutions also make mistakes and can be inefficient. He emphasizes the importance of checks and balances within society, which includes both public and private sectors.
What does Stiglitz suggest is the role of public investments in economic growth?
-Stiglitz believes that public investments in areas such as healthcare, infrastructure, and R&D are crucial for economic growth. He argues that a strong social policy is not only beneficial for society but also a growth policy.
How does Stiglitz view the current state of neoliberalism?
-Stiglitz is of the opinion that neoliberalism is in its death throes, with both Democratic and Republican parties moving away from it. He sees this as an opportunity to introduce a new ideology that focuses on progressive capitalism.
What is Stiglitz's stance on protests and the freedom of speech?
-Stiglitz strongly supports the right to protest and the freedom of speech. However, he also emphasizes the importance of respecting others and not crossing lines that lead to actions like anti-Semitism or intimidation.
What does Stiglitz believe is the key to achieving peace in the Middle East?
-Stiglitz suggests that prosperity is an important ingredient in achieving peace in the Middle East, and he expresses a willingness to help create a more prosperous Palestinian state.
How does Stiglitz feel about the current political climate in the United States?
-Stiglitz expresses concern about the opportunism and lack of a coherent intellectual philosophy in the current political climate, particularly among right-wing politicians. He also criticizes the anti-university stance of some Republicans.
Outlines
😀 Freedom of Speech and Protest in Society
The first paragraph discusses the conflict between the freedom to protest and the freedom to learn, emphasizing the importance of respecting others' rights. It introduces the podcast 'Ways to Change the World' and its guest, Joseph Stiglitz, an influential economist who has critiqued neoliberalism in his book 'The Road to Freedom.' Stiglitz argues against the simplistic view that free markets lead to growth and that everyone benefits from it, instead proposing progressive capitalism as a solution that balances economic freedom with societal well-being.
🤔 The Downside of Free Markets and Neoliberalism
The second paragraph delves into the consequences of free markets and neoliberal policies, suggesting they have led to inequality and a fertile ground for authoritarianism. Stiglitz criticizes the incoherent philosophy of the right-wing, which claims freedom while interfering with individual rights. He also discusses the charade of free trade agreements, which he sees as managed trade benefiting corporations rather than the general public. Stiglitz highlights the need for compensation for those negatively affected by trade agreements and criticizes the lack of such measures.
👉 Centrist Politics and Progressive Capitalism
The third paragraph examines the shift in the Democratic party towards the center, as exemplified by Bill Clinton's 'triangulation' strategy. Stiglitz argues that this move away from the progressive philosophy of FDR has not yielded the desired outcomes and that a more aggressive stance is necessary for economic growth. He emphasizes the importance of investment in people, R&D, infrastructure, and a strong healthcare system. Stiglitz also discusses the concept of progressive capitalism, which involves a balance of institutions and regulation to ensure the well-being of all stakeholders.
🏛️ Successes and Failures of Public and Private Sectors
The fourth paragraph addresses skepticism about government interventions by contrasting the successes and failures of both public and private sectors. Stiglitz counters neoliberal tropes by pointing out the significant financial waste and failures of the private sector, particularly in the lead-up to the 2008 financial crisis. He also highlights the public sector's role in developing the mRNA vaccine platform and the creation of the internet, arguing for a balanced view of both sectors and the need for checks and balances within society.
🌐 Addressing Digital Harms and the Importance of Regulation
The fifth paragraph focuses on the need for public investments and regulations to prevent corporations from causing harm. Stiglitz discusses the issues with social media and digital harms, noting Europe's attempts to address these problems and America's reluctance to do so. He emphasizes the importance of expanding freedoms for all citizens and the need for checks and balances in society, including within the government and the private sector.
📚 Academic Freedom and the Role of Universities
The sixth paragraph discusses the importance of academic freedom and the role of universities in fostering intellectual, technological, and moral leadership. Stiglitz expresses concern over political interference in universities and the potential undermining of academic freedom. He also touches on the issue of protests on campus, emphasizing the need for students to respect others while engaging in activism. Stiglitz distinguishes between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism and stresses the importance of understanding and addressing these issues carefully.
🌟 Progressive Capitalism as a Path Forward
The seventh and final paragraph outlines Stiglitz's vision for a progressive capitalism and rejuvenated social democracy as a replacement for the failing neoliberal ideology. He expresses optimism that the political climate is shifting towards this new paradigm, with both major parties in the U.S. showing signs of moving away from neoliberalism. Stiglitz concludes by reiterating his belief in the necessity of public investment, good regulation, and progressive taxation for a more equitable and prosperous society.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Freedom of Speech
💡Neoliberalism
💡Progressive Capitalism
💡Academic Freedom
💡Protest
💡Regulation
💡Inequality
💡Demagogue
💡Managed Trade
💡Public Investment
💡Checks and Balances
Highlights
The freedom to protest can sometimes conflict with the freedom to learn, creating a challenge for universities to balance these rights.
Joseph Stiglitz, a Nobel laureate, argues against the dominant ideology of neoliberalism, suggesting it has led to increased inequality and a fertile ground for authoritarianism.
Stiglitz's book 'The Road to Freedom' serves as a counterpoint to Friedrich Hayek's 'The Road to Serfdom', advocating for progressive capitalism.
The economist emphasizes the importance of finding a balance between market freedom and regulation, suggesting that neoliberalism oversimplifies this relationship.
Stiglitz discusses the concept of freedom in the context of environmental regulations, illustrating the trade-offs between individual freedoms and societal benefits.
He criticizes the right-wing's inconsistent embrace of neoliberal principles, highlighting their opportunistic approach to deregulation and market intervention.
The economist distinguishes between managed trade agreements, which often serve corporate interests, and true free trade, which could theoretically benefit society as a whole.
Stiglitz expresses concern about the potential for demagogues to exploit the discontent stemming from failed neoliberal policies, as seen with the rise of Donald Trump.
The Biden Administration's forward-looking industrial policy, focusing on sectors like green technology, is praised as a contrast to Trump's protectionist and retrospective approach.
Stiglitz calls for a more aggressive investment in people, R&D, and infrastructure, arguing that these are not just social policies but are essential for economic growth.
Progressive capitalism is described as a regulated form of capitalism that considers the well-being of workers, communities, and the environment, rather than just profit maximization.
The economist argues that public investments and regulations are necessary to prevent corporations from infringing on the freedoms of others.
Stiglitz addresses the importance of checks and balances within society, including the media and academia, to maintain a healthy democracy.
He defends the right to protest as crucial for societal change but also stresses the importance of respecting others and avoiding actions that cross a line.
Stiglitz reflects on his own experiences with protests, including the 1963 March on Washington, and their role in shaping American history.
The economist discusses the distinction between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism, cautioning against conflating the two and the potential for young protesters to go too far.
Stiglitz expresses concern over political interference in universities, which he sees as an attack on academic freedom and a threat to the future of intellectual and technological leadership in the U.S.
In discussing the Palestinian issue, Stiglitz shares his past work with the World Bank on the potential future of a Palestinian state and his willingness to help shape a more prosperous one.
The economist is optimistic about the shift away from neoliberalism towards a more progressive and democratic economic system, which he believes is already underway.
Transcripts
the freedom to protest comes in conflict
with the freedom to learn of other
students you occupy a building there's a
conflict of those freedoms young people
sometimes uh go over the
line that's part of Youth and and we we
we we ought to be at the same time
forgiving but I also think it's
important for them to learn to respect
[Music]
others hello and welcome to ways to
Chang the world the podcast about Big
Ideas and the events that have helped
shape them I'm Christian Guru Murphy and
my guest this week is one of the most
influential economists in the world
Joseph stiglets was chairman of the
Council of economic advisers to US
President Bill Clinton and chief
Economist at the world bank before being
awarded the Nobel Prize his latest book
is called the road to Freedom it
explores what's gone wrong with the
dominant ideology of free markets what
he terms neoliberalism it is the
rebuttal to two other Nobel prizewinning
economists of the 20th century who've
become the gods of right-wing free
market deregulates hak and fredman the
road to Freedom is of course the
Counterpoint to hak's road to serfdom
and it argues a good Society can be
created through what he calls
Progressive capitalism Professor stiglet
is now based at Columbia University in
New York where freedom of speech and the
right of protest has also been making
news in recent weeks thank you very much
for joining us nice to be here we'll get
to freedom of speech and protest in in
in a moment but but you've got some some
big Ideas which take on the dominant
ideology of the post-war consensus
that's right uh that dominant ideology
as you mentioned was neoliberalism and
uh looks parsed that word out Neo me new
liberalism is freeing it was uh uh an
attempt to update to the 20th century
the liberal ideas of the 19th century
but it wasn't really much change and it
was really a set of simple I would say
simplistic ideas that said that if you
Stripped Away
regulations lower taxes let unfettered
markets uh
rip um you'd have growth and trickle
down economics would ensure that even
though a lot of that benefits of that
growth would go to the top everybody
would be better off and there is this
sort of entrenched sense in all of our
thinking and and discourse that freeing
the market in some way frees people
that's right and and even the words that
uh the right has used free enterprise
free
markets suggest that there is a link
between
freedom and this neoliberal capitalism
and both Hayek and and uh Freedman
thought that this kind of economic
freedom would not only Liberate the
economy and make it more efficient more
perform better but was necessary if
we're going to have political
Freedom one of the things I argue in the
book is they were wrong both in their
economics and in their politics I mean
is the problem that that you know for
decades we have had these polarized
views of you know you you can either
have total freedom in which the market
runs a mark Or you can have communism or
dictatorship and the truth is that you
know you have to be somewhere in the in
between the two to to remind us of that
I I begin by talking about the Ten
Commandments which are a set of
regulations uh thou shall not kill th th
thou shall not steal that took away the
freedom of the thief and the murderer
but gave the rest of society so much
Freedom now in the 21st Century uh the
tradeoffs are a lot more subtle uh thou
shall not pollute uh
pollution uh ha takes away the freedom
of somebody with asthma even to live but
is putting in Jeopardy our whole world
so by restricting the freedom of the
polluters we are enhancing the freedom
of the rest of our society and that's
really one one of the big Ideas uh in
the book
that uh to put it as Isaiah Berlin the
great philosopher put it uh freedom for
the wolfs is often meant death for the
Sheep so so does that mean you can't
ever have a world in which Everybody's
Free well you you have to think very
carefully about how one person's Freedom
impinges that of another we are living
all tradeoffs it's all not all tradeoffs
because I also talk about some
circumstances where a little bit of
coercion
can actually increase everybody's
Freedom so so I mean well just to go
back a bit before that in a way I mean
it do you believe that the that free
markets are the road to surom that they
are the things that lead to people being
enslaved what I believe is that the
inequality and the deprivation that
we've seen out of free markets so-called
free markets uh has uh put us on the
road to serfdom to authoritarian to
populist uh the way I let me put it a
little bit more carefully uh they create
a fertile field uh there are other
factors uh that contribute to it but
they create a fertile field and it's a
field that demagogues will try to till
and there is in many countries including
the United States a rich supply of
demagogues will
and in some cases able to teal these
fields and we've wound up unlucky in the
United States with somebody like Donald
Trump but isn't it also quite confusing
if you're trying to understand what's
going on because you know some of these
right-wing populists are talking about
Market interventions to protect the home
markets so Trump with his protectionist
ideas now now now some of this is sort
of well are you on the same Turf are you
talking the same language yeah so so
what is interesting is that the right
today
has abandoned
neoliberalism in many essential ways
while embracing it in others and you're
right it is very confusing they do not
have a coherent intellectual philosophy
so they talk about Freedom the the the
ma main extreme Republican caucus is
called the freedom caucus in Congress
but they are perfectly uh willing
enthusiastic about interference ING with
women's right to make a choice their
Reproductive Rights they're perfectly
willing uh to interfere with other
people's rights so they don't and
and they they are not supportive of free
trade so they do not have a coherent
philosophy today they're opportunist but
uh it's exactly that opportunism that
has been created by the discontent of
the last 40 Years of failed
neoliberalism well can you also then
talk about free trade because because it
is free trade I mean the Assumption
again is that all free trade is a good
thing and and that it's part of sort of
deregulation and freeing and makes
everybody Richer there was a little bit
of a charade in calling all this free
trade the free trade agreements were
really managed trade agreements and they
were managed for the benefit of
corporate interest multinationals
multinational Financial companies uh so
there was a little bit of a charade in
calling it free trade um example uh uh
important provision was uh intellectual
property rights
Pharmaceuticals uh restricting the
movement of ideas across
boundaries uh so it was really a a
managed trade uh regime interestingly
economic theory have said that while
free trade could have beneficial effects
so large that the winners could
compensate the losers but also said that
there would be losers and unless you
provided that
compensation and unfortunately the
Republicans especially refused to
provide that compensation yes so so is
is the danger to your side of the
argument if you like that people like
Trump are saying things that are
appealing to the losers right now saying
things he's the con man and they are
saying things that are attractive but
he's not
delivering uh you know he he says I you
know I feel your pain I I want to help
you then what does he do he wants to
take away their health care he wants to
uh he has a tax reform that benefits the
billionaires but not ordinary people but
he does it in the language of saying
I'll protect your jobs did he create
jobs in those places where he promised
experience has been it was a failure and
the slogan of trump was make America
great again it's looking back in the
past uh the Biden Administration has
been looking forward and asking what are
the jobs for the 21st century and it's
focusing on things like chips the green
transition it's a future oriented
industrial policy rather than trying to
protect us against the changes that have
already uh uh left uh many places uh uh
behind right but but aren't you also
really criticizing centor left Politics
as well and saying that they're not
going far enough you know for the United
States uh one views it in a little bit
of historical
context uh
when Bill Clinton was running for the
presidency he felt that he needed to
redefine where the Democratic party was
he called it triangulation to get more
of those who were in the center and
center right on board of his
agenda and uh so it was it was a
deliberate strategy of moving away from
the progressive philosophy of uh FDR
Franklin Delon Roosevelt uh uh which had
you know really uh tried to change the
country with new labor legislation
Social
Security uh it was saying that that was
many years ago a half century earlier uh
we have to move on and so it was an
attempt to move the Democratic party
more to the right and I can tell you
frankly you know 30 40 30 years later I
think the country has now realized that
that particular project didn't work out
as well as we had hoped I mean I'm
obviously asking because in in this
country we're looking at the labor party
which is in a very similar situation is
trying to win over voters from the right
um is distancing itself from the
philosophy of Jeremy Corbin which was
much to the left economically perhaps
more on your Turf um he was a little bit
he was a little bit wedded to some of
the 1980s ideas and and you know this is
45 years later but but are are you
basically warning Kia stama and and the
likes of him I mean not him specifically
but politicians in his place that they
are in danger of making the same
mistakes I understand where you're
beginning and you have to get elected
and but you should also realize that if
you really want economic growth you
really have to make more investments in
people in
R&D uh in
infrastructure uh you can't tell you
hands it's really important to do more
for the NHS there's a broad consensus
about that but that's not only a social
policy that's a growth policy because if
you have a weak NHS people have to wait
a long time to get uh health care
they're out of the labor force while
they're waiting uh they can get
depressed uh there are real Economic
Consequences from having a weak Health
Care system so I'm arguing you need a a
much more aggressive uh stance and going
forward I believe very strongly that a
green
transition can be a growth enhancing
policy uh don't think about tradeoffs
that's not the issue actually uh by
focusing on a green transition you can
get a better environment and faster
economic growth right so what's his
Progressive capitalism in your terms
it's a broad concept uh and I also
sometimes use the word a rejuvenating
social democracy uh it entails a wide
array of Institutions our society is too
complex to have Central planning or
anything like that it's a capitalism
that is regulated uh competitive Works
within bounds and not just concerned
with maximizing profits it takes into
account the well-being of the workers
the communities the environment
customers um very big departure from
that shareholder value maximization that
was uh uh milon Freeman advocated but
there are other kinds of Institutions
that are really really important
government obviously but also other
forms of collective action unions Civil
Society um class action suits uh and
importantly NOS uh not for profs but but
wouldn't all mainstream politicians in
the west now say we are effectively
Progressive capitalists we believe in
regulation we don't allow the market to
run free without any kind of controls we
do have safety nets we do have welfare
states so is it just a question of where
you are on the line it is that but as
you pointed out there is a a an
inclination of many politicians to be
not far enough uh not Progressive enough
and the consequ there are real
consequences of that not enough
Investments I mean doesn't a lot of it
come though the sort of the public
skepticism about government
interventions come from this idea that
government doesn't do things well you
know and in this country people will
always heart back to the 1970s and say
well you know we had all these
nationalized industries they were
inefficient they made a mess of
everything the trains never ran on time
and you know you needed competition and
you needed the private sector to come
and uh introduce some r into all of
these things that's the neoliberal Trope
and that's what I'm trying to fight
against why was it untrue all humans are
viable and all human institutions are
going to be fallible uh and we have to
take a calm look at public and private
institutions if we look at private
institutions uh no government has wasted
money at the scale of America's private
financial institutions in the years
before 2008 and the consequences of the
misdeed in the years are in the
trillions of dollars the private
financial sector failed and then you
start thinking about other aspects say
of America that I know well uh we have a
childhood diabetes crisis caused by so
uh food companies trying to get people
to consume too much sugar everybody has
problem with their telephone company and
they're constantly complaining uh about
their internet company uh in America
where we don't have
NHS uh health insurance and Medical Care
is a mess uh if you're rich you get
really good care if you're not yeah you
have my sympathy uh so if you start
going down the list uh tobacco companies
that produce addictive products without
telling people I could go on and on and
on uh this is not just 1% of the
American economy this is embracing a
very large fraction of the private
sector of the American economy and
similar things not quite so bad in
Europe because you have quite frankly
better regulation you're not denying
that the public sector made a mess of
things you're saying that the private
sector does too yeah and I'm also saying
that the public sector has some enormous
successes we're here in part uh because
of the government success in developing
an mRNA platform that allowed for a
rapid development of the vaccine the
internet is really the basis of so much
of our modern society where government
uh even the browser that you know uh was
invented by the US government so is it
about political leadership that that
that transforms the dominant ideology
into persuading people that the state
can do things and do can do things and
that we need a broad array of
Institutions we need checks and balances
we need uh checks against government and
we need checks against the private
sector and when I talk about we need not
only checks within the government we
need checks and balances within our
society so an important part of the
checks and balances within our society I
would say is the media another important
part is Academia academic freedom so we
can have uh criticize what both the
government and the private sector does
and that's what an active media does as
well uh but if you have too much
glomeration of
wealth that checks and balances may not
work out so well so so do you believe we
all victims of a sort of a
gramsky you know hegemony you know a
dominant ideology that is underpinned by
the media and by the governments and you
know uh that's right and I'm trying to
upset that in my book and you know
one book isn't going to upset it yeah
but uh uh we need lots of conversations
and uh hopefully more and more people
will realize the situation that we're in
and and say got to change it and what's
your answer to the sort of you know when
people go well he's just an old Lefty in
a university he doesn't run anything you
know he doesn't know how private sectors
really work you know what's your answer
I I I've been engaged uh with the
private sector I haven't been justest in
an ivory Tower I spent uh 7even eight
years of my life in as a public servant
both uh at Clinton administration at the
World Bank um but also been in
international advisory Boards of a
number of big uh companies and and what
do you think would be the you know the
route from Progressive capitalism to
Greater social freedoms political
freedoms a stronger democracy if kids
grow up in poverty they're never going
to be able to live up to their potential
they aren't really free to live up to
their potential uh if companies can take
advantage of others uh that's taking
away others Freedom so it's both public
Investments that expand everybody's
freedom and regulations that
stop anybody including large
corporations from harming others right
now we have a a very big problem with
our social media uh exerting digital
harms and uh Europe is trying to do
something about these digital harms
America's not been willing to undertake
that so far that's I think uh the way to
enhance more freedom for more citizens
the other sort of um you know dominant
ideology if you like of the right is
that if you create these big
bureaucracies these regulatory regimes
you create monsters you know you you you
you create people who abuse their power
almost for the sake of it as I say you
need uh uh checks and balances in our
society if you think about how our
standards of living are so much higher
than they were 250 years ago at the time
of the Enlightenment that the ideas of
science social organization rule of law
all those ideas about how do we organize
a complex society have
proven uh uh their worth can we talk
about freedom of speech protest
obviously you're a professor at Columbia
we've see what's been going on there in
the um Pro Palestinian protests there um
what is your view of what's been going
on and the way it's been handled by the
university authorities and the police
most of uh the professors are are very
disturbed whenever you call in the
police our police are sometimes a little
rough you hope you don't normally need
to call in the police but uh
universities are special community
where we are supposed to reason together
learn uh we want to protect
people's freedom to
speech uh to
debate uh but uh also yeah the freedom
to learn so you have these conflicts one
of the points in my book is often
freedoms come in Conflict the freedom to
protest comes in conflict with the
freedom to learn uh of other students
you occupy a building yeah and and that
that obviously uh there's a conflict of
those freedoms and and uh I don't know
all the details of what went on uh I do
know that uh there's a general sentiment
that that calling in the police is a a
something of a last resort uh I don't
want to second guess where the
negotiations were and how they were
handled uh but I I I it obviously is
very upsetting but let me make uh two
other points uh one of them is that New
York uh Columbia University is in the
midst of
a a city uh and at the boundaries of the
University there are a lot of protesters
you can't easily separate out what's
going on within the campus from what's
going out outside in my part of the
campus where I my office is total quiet
so you might not see that from looking
at Hamilton Hall so what I want to
emphasize is that it's located in one
particular place a small part of a very
very large a campus the second thing I
want to emphasize uh to me I
feel very strong about the right to
protest uh I'm proud that that our
students feel empathy that they're
engaged in the
world uh I do want them to respect
others and I'm not sure these weren't my
students but I I'm not sure that all of
them did had that nature of the respect
for others that they should have had but
protests played an important part in my
own life uh I was uh down part of the
march in Washington in August
1963 Martin with their kings uh famous
March uh for civil rights for uh social
justice for
economics um he gave that wonderful
speech I Have a Dream uh it changed the
course of America yeah I mean a lot a
lot of the student leaders at the moment
are talking about the Vietnam student
protests uh and and and other you know
moments that they feel do you feel this
is such a moment and it should be
respected as such because you know
there's a lot of criticism of it there's
a lot of people saying there's
anti-Semitism there's intimidation you
know where do you sit in there yeah uh
there was a really good uh I thought
oped in the financial times today by
Henry loose who who try to uh
distinguish anti-Semitism from
anti-zionism
um the uh and the
two are at risk of blending uh with each
other and and obviously uh you know
young people sometimes uh go over the
line that's part of Youth and and we we
we we ought to be at the same time
forgiving but say there is a line and
you can't go over that line um you know
I I worry about uh young people 18 years
old getting a criminal record that will
be a stain on them for the rest of their
life uh but I also think it's important
for them to learn to respect
others um I think that
unfortunately uh some on the right some
Republicans uh who basic stance is anti-
universities I I should make that clear
um there is a strong
anti- liberal education strand in the
Republican party uh speaker Johnson came
up to Columbia knowing nothing about
what is really going on and on the steps
of our low Library called for the
resignation of our President we haven't
had that kind of interference and
academic freedom since the house on
American Activities Committee with
MacArthur McCarthy back in the 50s this
is a real violation of societal Norms um
they've been trying to undermine our
academic freedom so that worries you
more than the protest by the Sun that
worries me much more than the protest
that that but of course the protests
feed into that kind of uh attack on
academic freedom they're looking for a w
mechanism a way of undermining our
universities uh which remember as I said
earlier are part of the real strength of
the United States and if they undermine
our universities they will be
undermining our future uh
leadership uh intellectually uh
technologically and morally and and do
your own Jewish Origins um influence how
you feel about the issue itself that
they're protesting over um you know does
your identity dictate how you feel about
what's going on in the Middle East or uh
your politics part of of uh uh our
Jewish identity is concerned about the
freedom of everybody you know we just
celebrated Passover it
is uh the
holiday that
celebrates the freedom of the Jewish
people from the slavery way back in
Egypt and I think um when we have that
ceremony every every
year we think about the lack of Freedom
elsewhere uh and really connects with
with my book and we think about you know
the lack of Freedom that the slaves in
the United States at and I think that's
why we
feel uh a lot more empathy for their
history and we think uh about the lack
of Freedom uh in every part of the world
where there's been uh that kind uh where
there's been oppression I mean you've
advised many governments institutions I
I wonder whether you look at um Gaza
right now and think about what if if
there were ever to be a state a new
Palestinian state it would almost by
definition now be starting from scratch
it would be a the creation of a new
economy is that something you would be
interested in helping to shape when I
was uh in the uh World Bank
uh we engaged in trying to write reports
about the future of a Palestinian State
uh that was 25 years ago and uh things
haven't gone well and the challenge now
is even
greater uh of course I would like to do
what I could to help uh create a uh more
a prosperous uh I uh Palestinian State
and I I I think that um it's only
through the prosperity is an important
ingredient in achieving peace in the
Middle East finally if if you could
change the world W magic wand what would
you do well uh I've already sort of
given the
answer Progressive capitalism
rejuvenated social
democracy uh at at a very high level the
whole agenda that I talked about public
investment good
regulation uh uh you know appropriate
progressive taxation you think it will
happen I'm optimistic that we are moving
there this is a moment
where I would say neoliberalism is not
Deb but it's in it's death throws that
if you
read uh what is going on in both the
Democratic and Republican party uh
Democratic party is moved towards
industrial policies uh Republican party
believes in
tariffs
so uh NE liberalism as an ideology is
being left behind because it
failed uh and that's why I wrote the
book because the question
is as neoliberalism dies what's going to
replace it judges stiglet thank you very
much indeed thank you
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