Does Britain still have a class system? | Dr David Starkey and Helen Dale discuss

Summary

In this discussion, lawyer Helen Dale and historian Dr. David Starkey explore the persistence of the class system in the UK and its evolution. Dale emphasizes that social class is deeply entrenched and hard to change, often lasting for centuries, even across different countries like Australia. She highlights how class can remain despite efforts for redistribution and immigration. Starkey counters by suggesting that Britain's class system, while present, has historically been more open to change due to opportunities for wealth, education, and talent, but acknowledges that social signifiers such as accent and behavior still play a role.

Takeaways

• 😀 The UK still has a class system, more prominent than in Australia, which also has its own class structure.
• 📚 Historically, class in the UK was defined by factors like education, family history, and aspirational values, not just wealth.
• 📖 Class status tends to persist over centuries, with social mobility being difficult despite redistributive efforts.
• 🌍 Immigrants from high social classes in their countries often maintain their status when they move to the UK, perpetuating class divides.
• 🔄 Affirmative action policies designed for certain groups, like descendants of the Windrush generation, may unintentionally benefit upper-class immigrants instead.
• 🔗 The book *The Son Also Rises* highlights the enduring persistence of class systems, even across different countries and efforts to change them.
• 💼 Margaret Thatcher’s policies did not abolish the class system in the UK, despite attempts at economic reforms.
• 🏇 Traditional class markers in the UK, such as events like Ascot, continue to reflect the country's deep-rooted social hierarchies.
• 👔 Britain's class system has remained open to talent, wealth, and education, allowing some social mobility compared to continental Europe.
• 🎭 Class in Britain is also signified by complex social behaviors, including accent, clothing, and etiquette, rather than wealth alone.

Q & A

Does Britain still have a class system?

Yes, according to Helen Dale, Britain still has a strong class system, even more so than Australia, where it also exists but in a different form.

How persistent is social class over time according to Helen Dale?

Helen Dale mentions that social status can persist for up to eight centuries, based on research from Gregory Clark’s book *The Son Also Rises*. Social mobility is very difficult, even with radical redistributive policies.

How does immigration affect class dynamics, according to Helen Dale?

Helen Dale explains that when immigrants from high social classes in their home countries (e.g., Nigeria or China) move to the UK, they often retain their social status. Affirmative action policies intended to help disadvantaged groups can end up benefiting these upper-class immigrants instead of the original target groups.

Did Margaret Thatcher eliminate the class system in the UK?

No, according to David Starkey, Margaret Thatcher did not abolish the class system, and despite her efforts, even trade unions were not fully dismantled.

What is unique about the British class system, according to David Starkey?

David Starkey highlights that the British class system, particularly in England, has survived because it was open to talent, wealth, and education. This openness contrasts with continental Europe, where class systems were often destroyed by revolutions.

How does social mobility differ between Britain and continental Europe, according to the discussion?

David Starkey notes that the British class system was more open, allowing for social mobility through wealth and education, whereas in countries like Germany, class systems were dismantled through legal and revolutionary means.

What role does accent and behavior play in British class identity?

David Starkey points out that in Britain, class is signified not only by wealth but also by accent, behavior, how one dresses, and how one uses cutlery. These social cues are deeply embedded in class distinctions.

How does David Starkey describe the behavior of some people attending Ascot?

David Starkey describes many Ascot attendees, especially women, as crass and vulgar, with inappropriate dress and behavior, despite the event being a high-class affair. This highlights the complexity of class signifiers in Britain.

What does Helen Dale suggest about the persistence of class across different countries?

Helen Dale suggests that social class is a global phenomenon and persists even in countries like Australia and Japan. Gregory Clark's research shows that class status tends to persist across generations, even in radically different societies.

How did David Starkey benefit from the openness of the British class system?

David Starkey mentions that he personally benefited from the openness of the British class system, rising through education and talent despite being from a modest background, which demonstrates the system's historical flexibility.