Marketing Expert Answers Marketing Questions From The Internet

Summary

Rory Southernland debunks marketing myths, emphasizing marketing's role in avoiding opportunity costs rather than being a mere expense. He advises against the need for all marketing to be quantifiable, suggesting that some valuable marketing efforts may not be easily measured. Southernland also stresses the importance of making products distinctive and using service details to differentiate commodities. He discusses how context affects product value, the influence of habit and social proof in consumer behavior, and the potential for marketing to be surprising and counterintuitive. He also touches on the ethical use of behavioral science in marketing and predicts a future where AI could revolutionize marketing by curating personalized content for consumers.

Takeaways

• 💡 Marketing is not a cost but a way to avoid opportunity cost.
• 📏 It's a mistake to only do marketing when it's completely measurable; not everything can be quantified.
• 🚫 Avoid thinking of products as boring; they become interesting when they solve a problem.
• 🌟 Add distinctive features to products to make them stand out, even if they seem slightly gratuitous.
• 📦 Packaging and service details can differentiate a product from commodities.
• 📚 Read 'Unreasonable Hospitality' by Will Gara to learn about differentiation.
• 🧐 Big companies don't manipulate; they contextualize value through marketing.
• 🔄 Habit and social proof are innate behaviors that can be exploited in marketing.
• 📈 Marketers should test assumptions because consumer behavior can be counterintuitive.
• 💸 Price is a feeling, not just a number, and can influence perception of value.
• 🏆 There's no marketing secret; everything is context-dependent and perception-based.

Q & A

What does Rory Sutherland consider to be the biggest marketing lie?

The biggest marketing lie, according to Rory Sutherland, is the belief that marketing is a cost. He argues that framing marketing as a cost is the wrong mindset because marketing helps avoid opportunity costs.

Why does Rory Sutherland believe that demanding marketing to be completely measurable is a mistake?

Sutherland believes demanding complete measurability in marketing sets the bar too high. He explains that many valuable marketing strategies are rendered impossible by this rule, as not everything can be quantified.

How can a seemingly boring product be made interesting, according to Sutherland?

Sutherland suggests that no product is inherently boring if it solves someone's problem. He recommends making products distinctive, eccentric, or adding unique features that make them stand out, such as packaging details or exceptional service.

What does Sutherland say about the relationship between value and marketing?

Sutherland argues that value is subjective and depends on how products are contextualized through marketing. Marketing can make good things worthless or boring things exciting based on how they are presented.

Which human behaviors does Sutherland believe are easiest to exploit in marketing?

Sutherland identifies habit and social proof as the easiest behaviors to exploit in marketing. These behaviors are innate, as people tend to repeat past actions and follow what others are doing.

Why do people get addicted to certain products, according to Sutherland?

Sutherland explains that addiction often stems from habituation and ritual. Products that become familiar and intuitive to use, like the iPhone, create a sense of comfort, making it difficult for people to switch to alternatives.

What surprising results has Sutherland observed in marketing campaigns?

Sutherland has found that seemingly trivial factors, such as increasing the price of a product, can unexpectedly boost demand. He emphasizes that consumer psychology can defy logical expectations.

What is Sutherland's most controversial marketing view?

Sutherland's most controversial view is that there is no objective perception of value. He believes value is contextually constructed through internal mental processes, influenced heavily by marketing.

What ethical concerns does Sutherland raise regarding subscription-based business models?

Sutherland criticizes companies that make it easy to subscribe but difficult to cancel services. He argues that this practice damages consumer trust and ultimately hurts businesses, as it deters people from subscribing to new services.

How does Sutherland envision the future of marketing with AI?

Sutherland envisions a future where consumers use AI-powered agents to filter and curate marketing information, effectively reversing the traditional direction of marketing. Instead of companies seeking customers, customers will direct AI to find relevant products for them.

Outlines

00:00

🎯 Marketing Misconceptions

Rory Southernland discusses common misconceptions about marketing, emphasizing that marketing is not merely a cost but a strategy to avoid opportunity costs. He refutes the idea that marketing should only be done when it's quantifiable, arguing that setting such a high standard can limit creativity. Rory suggests that products should not be seen as boring but rather as problem solvers that can become highly interesting when they malfunction. He uses the example of San Pellegrino's foil cap, which made it stand out from other carbonated drinks. Rory also recommends 'Unreasonable Hospitality' by Will Gara for insights on differentiation. He touches on how big companies can influence consumers through contextualization and perception, rather than manipulation.

05:02

🧠 Exploiting Human Behavior

Rory explains that human behaviors such as habit and social proof are innate and can be exploited through marketing. He gives historical examples of how marketing has been used to change societal norms, like drink driving campaigns and the adoption of new technologies. Rory argues that marketing is not inherently deceptive but is about aligning with consumer perceptions. He points out that marketing techniques can be misused, as seen with conmen like Bernie Madoff, but that marketing itself is not evil. He also discusses how marketing can create addictive behaviors through habituation and ritual, using the iPhone as an example of a product that people become accustomed to and reluctant to change.

10:03

🔮 Future of Marketing

Rory envisions a future where marketing roles reverse, with consumers appointing AI-powered agencies to find relevant products and services. He suggests that as AI-generated content increases, companies may use AI for filtration and curation. Rory also discusses the importance of ethical marketing, advocating for transparency and considering public perception. He highlights the negative impact of making subscriptions easy to sign up for but difficult to cancel, suggesting it erodes trust. Rory is inspired by the constant learning in marketing and how everyday experiences can enhance one's marketing skills.

Keywords

💡Marketing as a cost

The speaker argues that framing marketing as a 'cost' is a misleading perspective. Instead of viewing it as an expense, marketing should be seen as a way of avoiding 'opportunity cost,' meaning the loss of potential gain from other alternatives. This mindset shift highlights marketing as a critical investment for growth rather than a drain on resources.

💡Measurability in marketing

The idea that marketing should be completely measurable is considered another 'lie' by the speaker. While measurement is important, not all marketing actions can be quantified, and trying to do so can limit creativity and effectiveness. The speaker emphasizes the importance of testing and learning, but also advises against over-reliance on measurable outcomes, as it might stifle innovation.

💡Boring products

The speaker rejects the idea that any product is inherently boring, especially if it solves a problem for someone. Products like boiler parts, which might seem dull to outsiders, become highly relevant when needed. The challenge is to make these products distinctive, even by adding quirky or unusual features, much like San Pellegrino does with its foil cap on cans.

💡Contextualizing value

The concept of 'contextualizing value' refers to how marketing can change the way a product is perceived. The speaker explains that value is not objective but depends on how it's framed or marketed. For instance, marketing luxury cars at yacht shows instead of car shows can make them seem like more accessible purchases by altering the context in which they're viewed.

💡Social proof

Social proof refers to the psychological phenomenon where people copy the actions of others in an attempt to reflect correct behavior. It is a form of 'herd mentality,' and the speaker mentions that this behavior is one of the easiest to exploit in marketing. Marketers use social proof by showcasing customer reviews or popularity to persuade others to follow suit.

💡Habit in consumer behavior

Habits are deeply ingrained behaviors that consumers repeat without much conscious thought. The speaker notes that habit is another aspect of human behavior that marketing can easily exploit. Products like the iPhone create user habits that make switching to alternatives, like Android, feel cognitively painful, creating brand loyalty that can feel like an addiction.

💡Psychological pricing

Psychological pricing refers to how price is not just a number to consumers, but also an emotional experience. The speaker discusses instances where raising the price of a product actually increases demand, illustrating that price is more about perception than pure logic. Rolls-Royce exhibiting cars at yacht shows is an example of altering perception to make high prices feel more reasonable.

💡Perception of value

The speaker stresses that value is not objective but constructed through perception. This concept is tied to how marketing influences the way we see a product's worth. From choosing a cafe based on its design and ambiance rather than just the food reviews, to framing a product’s quality in a favorable light, marketing shapes what we perceive as valuable.

💡Manipulation in marketing

While some view marketing as manipulative, the speaker argues that it’s about framing value in ways that resonate with the consumer. While there are unethical uses of marketing—like creating deceptive subscription models that are easy to start but difficult to cancel—most companies work to build trust and provide value rather than deceive. Ethical marketing seeks to enhance perception, not exploit it.

💡AI-powered marketing

The speaker envisions a future where marketing becomes more consumer-driven, with AI tools acting as personal advertising agents for individuals. Rather than companies pushing marketing content, consumers would request personalized recommendations from an AI. This shift toward 'reverse marketing' could help filter through overwhelming marketing material and deliver more relevant suggestions.

Highlights

Marketing is not a cost but a way of avoiding opportunity cost. Framing it as a cost is the wrong mindset.

You shouldn't only do marketing when it's measurable. Valuable things that distinguish you are often impossible to quantify.

Products are never boring if they solve someone's problem. Even seemingly mundane products can become exciting in the right context.

Making products distinctive, even with a seemingly gratuitous feature, can change how people perceive them. Packaging and service details can transform products.

Value depends on how we contextualize products. Good things can be made worthless with poor marketing, and boring things can become exciting with the right approach.

Habit and social proof are the easiest human behaviors to exploit, as they are innate and hardwired into people’s decision-making.

Historical innovations, like vaccines or home electricity, required extraordinary levels of marketing, which shaped modern consumer behavior.

Addiction to products is often linked to ritual and habituation. Familiar behaviors in using a product make it difficult for users to switch to alternatives.

Psychological factors, not just logical ones, drive surprising marketing outcomes, such as higher prices leading to higher demand.

Price is a feeling, not just a number. Context can change whether a product feels expensive or like good value for money.

Our perception of value is highly context-dependent, influenced by mental processes and marketing. Objective value doesn’t exist independent of perception.

Some companies create intentionally difficult-to-cancel subscriptions, which erodes consumer trust and damages the broader business ecosystem.

Marketing in the future might reverse direction, with consumers appointing AI-powered agencies to seek out relevant products for them.

With AI-generated content, marketing volume may become intolerable, forcing consumers to rely on AI for filtration and curation of advertising.

Marketing allows constant learning, and even seemingly trivial experiences can improve one’s skills in the field, which makes it a rewarding career.

Transcripts

I'm Rory southernland and I'm on help

bank and I'm going to answer a series of

questions the first one is what is the

biggest marketing lie the biggest

marketing lie is that marketing is a

cost once you frame marketing as a cost

you've got the wrong mindset marketing

is a way of avoiding opportunity cost

it's completely wrong to frame it that

way the second biggest lie is that you

should only do marketing when it's

completely measurable or accountable or

quantifiable because that's simply

setting the bar too high and a lot of

very valuable things you can do to

distinguish your self are rendered

Impossible by that rule don't follow

that rule measure what you can but don't

demand that you measure everything

that's simply a limitation how can you

make a boring product interesting don't

ever think of a product as boring

because if it's solving someone's

problem it may seem boring to random

passes by but when something goes wrong

with your boiler boiler Parts suddenly

take on an extreme level of interest

there is a way in which I think it pays

to make them distinctive eccentric even

to the point of seeming slightly

gratuitous if you just add someone usual

feature I'll give you an example okay

not a boring product at all a very

interesting product but the wonderful

file cap they used to put on the lid of

San pelino cans was notionally pointless

but it made it completely different from

every carbonated drink suddenly because

you had this foil cap on the top it was

like an access all areas pass you could

actually have cans of San peligrino at

your wedding which you probably wouldn't

do with say Fanta perhaps it can be a

packaging detail it can be a service

detail you can always bundle products

with service by the way if you think

your product is a commodity you can

decomod it by adding uh interesting

distinctive and uh remarkable service

levels to it great book you should read

on this by the way it's unreasonable

Hospitality by Will Gara who's a

restorator and it's an absolutely

fantastic book on how to differentiate

yourself how do big companies manipulate

us to buy it's a bit unfair this phrase

of manipulation the value of anything

depends on how we contextualize it you

can make really good things worthless by

Marketing in the wrong way you can make

boring things exciting by Marketing in

the right way it's not reasonable to

suggest that there's an objective View

and valuation attached to a product that

marketing interferes with everything

only has a value to the extent to which

we perceive it as valuable that is not

to say by the way you cannot do bad

things with marketing techniques you can

undoubtedly uh mislead you can obviously

lie you can use cunning uh Behavioral

science tricks to malitia intent I mean

it's very interesting that generally

very successful conmen have usually

discovered something of that kind Bernie

maid off for example had the ingenious

marketing idea of making his fund really

difficult to invest in if you're a

billionaire you're not used to people

saying no to you so this drove people

practically insane with their desire to

invest in the fund to a point that they

suspended most of their usual healthy

skepticism absolutely not saying for a

second that marketing is evil but it's

completely inaccurate to say that

marketing by its nature misrepresents

something there is no objective value

attached to anything that's independent

of your perception you're marketing

whether you like it or not what's human

behaviors are the easiest to exploit

habit and social proof because they're

innate so getting people to do the same

again and getting people to do the same

as other people are doing are

undoubtedly kind of they're hardwired

oh when I say that habit and social

proof are very easy to exploit we have

these two mental default settings which

are kind of do what everybody else does

do what I've done before I was assumed

that Jenna just came up with the small

Fox vaccination everybody celebrated it

brilliant we've cracked this one We're

Off to the Races he had to contend with

huge opposition people saying it was

unbiblical people saying they'd never

done it before it was untested untried

every one of those things from say drink

driving to samesex marriage to the

adoption of the internet to the adoption

of mobile phones has required

extraordinary levels of marketing it

seems extraordinary now to anybody in

2024 the idea that you have to advertise

home electricity trust me for the end of

the 19th century all the way through to

the middle of the 20th century there

were advertising campaigns by

electricity boards extoling the benefit

of having electricity in the home in

retrospect we forget marketing because

we don't say I was marketed into doing

this we say I bought it because I wanted

to because it was a great product but

that very reaction the fact that you're

doing something different is actually

very largely the product of marketing

activity why do people get addicted to

products very similar to I think

habituation and ritual there are certain

products which actually acquire a kind

of ritualistic thing where we just don't

want them to change we're familiar with

them now you could argue for instance

that people are addicted to the iPhone

to the extent that if you switch from

iOS to Android there are a whole load of

familiar system one behaviors that

you've required in using the iPhone

which you will have to relearn if you

switch to Android Now Android isn't very

different to iOS conceptually it's

pretty damn similar but enough of it is

different that something would that goes

from being instinctive to actually

requiring some cognitive effort we find

inherently painful so ritual in a sense

and the fact that Things become system

onized in other words they become

automatic autonomic actually creates a

behavior which is very very similar to

an addiction what marketing campaign

results been the most surprising

actually lots of them and this is why as

I've said don't demand that all your

marketing is quantifiable that's simply

an unreasonable aspiration a surprising

number of direct marketing campaigns

I've been involved in where we test you

find that seemingly trivial things have

a huge effect seemingly important and

logical things are sometimes

counterproductive so testing things

where for example when you put the price

up demand goes up it's completely

seemingly illogical it's only when you

understand that the psychological is not

the same as the narrowly logical and

rational that you realize that that that

actually makes sense no one who's got a

budget of £5,000 to spend on a painting

wants to buy 2,000 painting So quite a

lot of the experiments that I found

particularly surprising and interesting

relates to price to economists price is

a number but to Consumers price is a

feeling you can actually make the same

thing feel expensive or feel good value

for money simply by changing what people

compare it to famously I've always told

the story Rolls-Royce and Maserati

stopped exhibiting their cars at car

shows because they look really expensive

and they switched instead to exhibiting

their cars at yacht and aircraft shows

now if you're alongside a Lear jet or a

Sunseeker yacht both of which run into

many millions bizarrely a 300,000 Euro

Car almost becomes an Impulse buy what's

your most controversial marketing tag I

would argue that there is no objective

perception of value whatsoever that our

valuation of something is internally

constructed uh it's a it's a product of

internal perception and is therefore the

product of mental processes which are

highly influenced by context but the

fact that actually nothing is context

independent and therefore nothing can be

completely marketing free when you

decide to go into one Cafe rather than

another Cafe well in theory yes you'd

look at reviews of the food how reliable

those reviews are in fact what you're

doing is you're unconsciously reading a

whole load of things about the design of

the cafe the furniture the layout the

location and you're making

predictions based on what can only be

said are kind of correlations you know

expectations but largely most of what we

perceive is actually a prediction I find

that very very interesting because it

explains I think to a large extent why

it's very very dangerous to solve

problems without a marketer present

because you will look at solving the

problem s that seem important to you in

the mind of a consumer however what they

actually perceive is hugely contextually

dependent so you could spend an absolute

Fortune trying to improve objective

reality and get absolutely nowhere in

terms of changing customer Behavior I

don't think it's actually controversial

nobody disagrees with me it's just

something that people find hard to act

on in their day-to-day lives what is the

marketing secret big companies don't

want us to know I generally don't think

there are any I mean there are strange

things which companies wouldn't go

public about the fact that you have to

make Diet Coke taste a little bit more

bitter than regular Coke because

otherwise people don't believe it's a

diet drink the fact that you know some

medicinal products are deliberately made

to taste unpleasant because it increases

our belief in the efficacy of the

product if it tastes weird and slightly

unpalatable there are things companies

do which they don't make public one of

the things I would make an ethical

consideration if I were using Behavioral

Science to solve a business problem

would be would I I'd be happy presenting

this on the stage to an audience which

would include both journalists and the

public if I thought a significant number

of people would be outraged if they

discovered what was going on behind the

scenes I wouldn't be comfortable doing

it now remember that most of the

companies we work with the big companies

that have a reputation to protect it's

not in their interests to risk being

seen to be deceiving customers that does

not mean and if you want to study the

darker side of this there are plenty of

conmen huers shyers ET Etc out there who

are undoubtedly using marketing tricks

uh to mislead people it's absolutely

possible One Good Reason To Learn

Behavioral Science is that you learn to

spot it there is an area which I regard

as being fundamentally dubious which big

companies do and should have learned

leared not to do which is the business

of making things very easy to subscribe

to and almost impossible to cancel now

the reason I think they should stop

doing this is I think this is damaging

to the economy as a whole because so

many consumers have now been once bitten

twice shy through a through a

subscription to something I I I think I

was still paying for something like Club

Penguin when my children were in the

sixth form those things need to stop

because it's eroding trust in the whole

system of subscription someone should

have done something about that years ago

not just because it was unfair to the

consumer it's actually damaging to

businesses as a whole because there are

some Services you can only sell that way

50% of consumers basically reach a point

where they go I'm no longer subscribing

to anything ever again it basically

makes it impossible for you to start a

streaming service or anything of that

kind and that's fundamentally

anti-competitive and not even in the

business interest never mind anybody

else how will marketing be done in the

future a few cynics have said it'll be

the same only more and worse I can see a

future this would be the radical take

where marketing reverses Direction

completely where a consumer appoints an

AI powered advertising agency to go out

and find interesting products and

services that they think may be of

relevance so in other words rather than

companies trying to reach people you

would actually it's almost that that

story I told about the people who wrote

to people saying would you be willing to

sell our house reversal of polarity the

reversal of the direction of travel it's

doing it backwards I can envisage a

future for marketing in fact with AI

generated content the volume of

marketing material May simply become

utterly intolerable

and what companies will do is

effectively appoint AIS of their own to

act for filtration stimulation curation

in other words it's that thing I

mentioned earlier which is I'm quite

interested in going to the Philippines

in the first quarter of 2025 over the

next few months can you send me

interesting information that you think

might be particularly pertinent and so

that will be advertising in Reverse

where effectively you go I need a

toaster go and find out the most

interesting toasters you can find in

other words it's marketing done

backwards I don't see any reason why

this shouldn't become popular in the

next 5 to 10 years it's possible that if

the volume of marketing material

automatically generated becomes

ridiculously high it won't only be

popular it will be unavoidable what

inspires you as a marketer oh just a few

things the fact that you're always

learning there's a lovely lovely thing

about Marketing in general and that's

the one thing I'll always recommend

about people going into advertising or

marketing there aren't that many jobs

where doing anything thing can make you

better at your job you know if you're an

actor and you sit outside a cafe or you

you know you observe the Queue at Gales

it doesn't make you a better act if

you're in marketing or advertising or

indeed sales to some extent I'd say if

you're in one of those psychologically

informed disciplines anything you do

going and seeing a French Art House film

going to the cinema going to a

restaurant riding on the top deck of a

bus eavesdropping on other people's

conversations anything even the

seemingly trivial can make you a lot

better at your job that's still

rewarding 35 years on