Wheeler Interviews Joe Raelin on Leadership

Summary

In this discussion, experts explore the future of learning and work, highlighting the evolving nature of education and leadership. They emphasize the growing importance of work-based learning, informal knowledge acquisition, and the potential return of apprenticeship models. The conversation touches on the balance between cognitive learning and practical experience, the limitations of traditional classroom settings, and the role of mentorship. They also consider how virtual learning might complement real-world practice and the sociological shifts in how younger generations engage with technology for education and work.

Takeaways

• 🧑‍🏫 Work-based learning, akin to old-school on-the-job training, is poised for a comeback as a core learning method.
• 🧠 Learning is not just about acquiring knowledge from books; it also happens during the practice of a task, developing meta-skills and creativity.
• 📚 There needs to be a balance between academic/cognitive learning and hands-on, practical experiences to truly grasp complex skills.
• 👩‍🏫 The concept of generic competencies for training employees is limited; true learning often arises organically from direct work experience.
• 🔧 A hybrid of structured academic learning with mentorship/apprenticeship models could be the future of education in corporate environments.
• 👨‍🏫 Mentorship should focus on engagement and dialogue, not just storytelling or sharing expertise. The mentor’s role is to be a listener and facilitator.
• 💡 The internet is a great resource for information, but deeper learning, reflection, and application still require personal interaction and practice.
• 🎓 The apprenticeship model is likely to reemerge in corporate training, offering real-time, practice-based learning environments.
• 💬 Online learning and virtual universities are gaining popularity, but replicating face-to-face, dialogic interaction in a virtual space is still a challenge.
• 🌍 Social networks and relational aspects of work are becoming more important, influencing how we view both careers and learning.

Q & A

What is the primary focus of the conversation?

The conversation primarily focuses on the future of learning and education, particularly in the context of workforce development, leadership, and work-based learning models.

How does the speaker view the future of learning?

The speaker believes that learning will shift toward more work-based or on-the-job learning (OJT), with an emphasis on practical, experiential learning rather than purely academic or classroom-based methods.

What is the role of informal learning in the speaker's perspective?

The speaker views informal learning as essential, arguing that knowledge often arises through practical engagement and problem-solving rather than from formal instruction alone.

How does the speaker differentiate between formal and informal learning?

Formal learning is seen as structured, classroom-based, and cognitive, whereas informal learning arises from the practice of work itself, helping learners deal with 'imponderables' or challenges encountered during real-world tasks.

What concerns do some people have about informal learning models?

Some people worry that informal learning alone might not be enough to build necessary skills and that new employees might need structured mentorship or formal training to properly learn how to navigate workplace challenges.

What does the speaker believe is key to sustainable learning?

The speaker believes that sustainable learning comes from a combination of academic instruction and hands-on, practical experience, with mentorship playing a critical role in helping learners navigate complex situations.

What is the speaker's view on the corporate competency model?

The speaker is skeptical about the corporate focus on generic competencies, arguing that true expertise and skill development come from real-world, contextual experience rather than from a predefined set of competencies.

How does the speaker propose improving mentorship in the workplace?

The speaker advocates for a model where mentors engage more through active listening and dialogue rather than simply sharing their experiences or 'war stories.' This helps mentees develop their own critical thinking and problem-solving skills.

How does the speaker feel about virtual and online learning?

The speaker sees virtual and online learning as having potential, especially in bringing together people from different cultures and societies. However, they believe these platforms still need to evolve to replicate the richness of in-person dialogue and hands-on experience.

What is the co-op program, and why does the speaker support it?

A co-op program combines academic learning with practical, work-based experience by alternating between classroom studies and real job placements. The speaker supports this model because it allows students to apply their learning in real-world settings, making their education more relevant and impactful.

Outlines

00:00

🎓 Exploring the Future of Learning and Work

In this opening discussion, the speakers reconnect and delve into the future of learning, education, and leadership. One speaker highlights the importance of lifelong learning for a competitive workforce. They question whether learning will look the same in the future and whether traditional methods will be enough. The conversation hints at a return to work-based learning, reminiscent of on-the-job training (OJT). The core debate is about whether knowledge is something taught in classrooms or gained through practice.

05:02

🔍 The Role of Informal Learning and Bricolage

The conversation shifts to informal learning, referencing Jay Cross's philosophy of learning by doing, such as picking up a camera to learn photography. The speaker emphasizes the need for a balance between cognitive learning and practical experience, arguing that book learning alone isn't enough. They introduce the concept of 'bricolage,' a method of figuring things out with available tools, and stress the importance of mentors to guide learners through real-life challenges and complex problem-solving.

10:04

🏢 Competency-Based Learning and the Corporate World

The discussion moves to corporate training, where the speakers critique the reliance on generic competencies in corporate settings. They argue that real learning arises organically through work experience, not just from formal training programs. They discuss the challenge of balancing executive demands for formal education with more practical, on-the-job learning. Mentorship and experiential learning are highlighted as more effective than formal instruction for leadership development and problem-solving in real-world contexts.

15:04

🧑‍🏫 Mentorship Models: Formal vs Informal

The focus here is on mentorship and whether it should be formalized or occur naturally. The speakers prefer organic mentorship but acknowledge that not all mentors are effective. They argue that the best mentors are listeners and facilitators of learning, rather than simply storytellers or experts. True learning comes from inquiry and engagement. The conversation highlights the importance of communication and how it can create a foundation for new learning, especially in mentorship relationships.

🎓 Higher Education and Work Integrated Learning

Higher education's role in learning is examined, with a focus on Northeastern University’s co-op programs, which combine classroom learning with work experience. The speaker advocates for this model, where students alternate between academic studies and real-world employment, allowing them to apply classroom knowledge practically. Despite these programs, most higher education still follows traditional methods, relying on classroom-based knowledge transfer, which the speakers believe is outdated.

🌐 The Rise of Online and Virtual Learning

The conversation addresses the growth of online universities and virtual learning environments, such as the University of Phoenix. While acknowledging their popularity, especially in graduate programs like MBAs, the speakers question whether online education can replicate the richness of face-to-face learning. They recognize the benefits of virtual learning but express doubts about whether it can fully recreate the dynamic, collaborative engagement needed for deep learning, especially when it comes to hands-on skills.

🔄 The Changing Landscape of Work and Learning

In the concluding remarks, the speakers predict that both work and learning will evolve to emphasize relational aspects. They discuss how social networks and stakeholder engagement will increasingly influence career paths and learning. As our understanding of work changes, so will our approach to education, which will need to incorporate diverse sources of knowledge and collaboration. They anticipate a shift away from traditional, individualistic approaches toward more interconnected and socially informed learning models.

Keywords

💡Work-based learning

Work-based learning refers to an educational approach where learning occurs through actual work experiences. In the video, the speaker highlights how practical, on-the-job learning is seen as essential for acquiring skills, contrasting it with more formal academic settings. The speaker suggests this is an important future direction for education and workforce development.

💡Future of learning

The future of learning refers to how education and skill acquisition are expected to evolve in coming years. The video discusses the idea that learning will increasingly be a continuous process, critical for staying competitive in the workforce. It will likely involve a blend of formal education and practical, real-world experience.

💡Competencies

Competencies are a set of defined skills, knowledge, or behaviors needed to perform specific tasks. In the video, there is a critique of generic competency frameworks, suggesting they are insufficient. Instead, organic competencies, which arise from doing specific tasks, are seen as more valuable for skill development and problem-solving in real-world situations.

💡Informal learning

Informal learning is the type of learning that happens outside formal educational environments, through experiences, interactions, and practice. The speaker notes that while classroom learning provides structure, real, sustainable learning often comes from practical engagement, where one learns 'in the midst of practice,' supporting more flexible and adaptive knowledge acquisition.

💡Mentorship

Mentorship involves guidance and support from more experienced individuals to help others grow and develop skills. The video stresses the importance of mentors in work-based learning, not just to impart knowledge but to foster dialogue and inquiry, helping learners develop problem-solving skills organically. Effective mentors focus on listening and facilitating learning rather than simply giving advice.

💡Apprenticeship model

The apprenticeship model is a form of learning where individuals acquire skills by working alongside an experienced mentor, often in a hands-on, real-world setting. The video predicts a return to this model, especially in corporate training, as it allows learners to gain practical experience while receiving personalized guidance, which is considered more effective than traditional classroom learning.

💡Meta-competencies

Meta-competencies are higher-order skills that enable individuals to adapt and respond to new challenges across various situations. In the video, the speaker contrasts these with generic competencies, emphasizing that meta-competencies arise from hands-on experience and problem-solving in complex, unpredictable work environments, making them crucial for future work and leadership roles.

💡Knowledge transfer

Knowledge transfer is the process by which knowledge is passed from one person or context to another. In the video, traditional knowledge transfer, often through formal education, is questioned. The speaker argues that learning should be more dynamic, emerging from practice and dialogue rather than just the transfer of facts or theories from teacher to learner.

💡Virtual learning

Virtual learning refers to the use of online platforms to deliver educational experiences. The video discusses its rise, particularly in graduate programs like MBAs, and considers its advantages and limitations. While virtual learning enables wider access, it raises questions about whether it can fully replicate the depth of engagement found in face-to-face interactions, especially in terms of collaborative problem-solving and dialogue.

💡Competency movement

The competency movement refers to an educational and corporate trend that emphasizes the identification and teaching of specific skills and behaviors needed for effective performance. The video critiques this movement, arguing that pre-defined, generic competencies often fail to prepare individuals for real-world challenges. Instead, competencies that emerge from actual work experience are considered more valuable.

Highlights

Discussion on the future of learning and education with a focus on continuous learning for staying competitive in the workforce.

Exploration of work-based learning as a return to the old days of on-the-job training (OJT), which is seen as more sustainable for long-term learning.

Debate on whether knowledge is something that is simply transferred or if it is acquired through practice and experience.

Mention of the cognitive component of learning but emphasis on the insufficiency of formal learning alone, suggesting the need for informal learning alongside it.

Introduction of the idea of 'bricolage' – the concept of figuring out how to work with available tools, a skill that requires practice and often the guidance of a mentor.

Importance of mentorship and learning from situational experiences in the workplace, similar to old apprenticeship models.

Discussion on the failure of generic competencies in corporate training to solve real problems, advocating for organic, work-derived competencies instead.

Proposal to bring new workers into the fold by observing experts in action and having a dialogue around these real-time learning experiences.

The issue of formal vs. informal mentoring and the need for mentors who engage in active listening and dialogue rather than simply relaying war stories.

The role of the internet as a source of data and facts but not a replacement for contextual learning, reasoning, and problem-solving in real situations.

The outdated 'data-dumping' model of teaching, with a shift towards the teacher as a facilitator of knowledge emerging from practice.

Co-op programs like those at Northeastern University as an example of successful models that intersperse classroom learning with real-world work experience.

The rise of virtual universities and online learning platforms, their growing role in higher education, and questions about whether they can fully replicate face-to-face engagement.

Challenges of maintaining effective synchronous communication in online learning across different time zones and cultures.

Speculation on the future of education and work, emphasizing relational aspects of careers and the integration of social networks and stakeholder relationships into learning models.

Transcripts

guys okay Joe good to good to see you

again it's been a while it's been fun to

be with you again yeah it's been great

to catch up and you know as you know I'm

always really curious about uh your

thoughts on where things are going

around learning education leadership uh

and I know you've done lots of work in

research in that area so you know one of

the themes that the Institute that we

focus on is the future of learning

future of

Education um you know we think it's uh a

Cornerstone of the future Workforce that

it's going to be a uh a very continuous

process of learning in order to stay

competitive so just like where do you

think it's where's learning heading is

it is it going to look like it does

today in 5 years is it going to look

different uh how is it going to look

different if it is um you know what are

your thoughts well uh as you know I'm

I'm a kind of work-based learning guy

and in some respect specs where we could

think about this as a throwback to the

old days you remember the old days of

OJT on the job learning I think that's

going to come

back um and part of this is is really

a a debate about what does knowledge

represent what does it mean is it

something that is lodged in the

brain and it gets acquired when you

acquire it from someone else or is it

something that can uh occur in the midst

of practice itself so I'm on that end of

the spectrum as you know and I think

there's something very magical about

work that uh uh can produce the kind of

learning that is sustainable and that

can help us in in the future as we uh

develop ourselves and we develop the

necessary creativity that we need okay

for progress in the United States let me

let me ask you this because this has

comes up a lot in my talks with um I

think you know Jay Cross and his work in

informal learning and you know Jay's

sort of philosophy is that uh it's it's

similar in a way in the fact that you

know if I want to learn to be a uh a

photographer yeah I should just pick up

the camera and go take pictures right

right uh and in a way that's on the job

of training and learning right um but I

think there's got to be more than that

to it right yeah I think there's a

cognitive component as well um but on

the other hand it may not be sufficient

to just uh feel that you're going to be

able to acquire the necessary even meta

skills to be able to perform well in the

workforce and what whatever your career

might may be by just studying things

that come out of a book uh because again

that's the form of learning that we

would call permanent but I consider

informal learning to be that form of

learning that derives from more from

more fluid forms of knowledge and this

is knowledge that occurs as we work on

those imponderables those those

difficult things that seem to kind of

sty us as we uh as we try to make our

way a um an anthropologist the French

Anthropologist named Levy Strauss

referred to this as bricolage right and

so this is kind of uh figuring out you

know how to kind of work with the tools

that you have at your own disposal and

it's something that's not easy for a

novice so it does help to have a teacher

a mentor an instructor to help you learn

to make those situational

discriminations that can help you work

your way and learn your way out of

difficult problems uh but I think it's

some kind of combination of the of the

academic the classroom the the more the

more cognitive kind of conceptual basis

of learning with the practice I mean you

know I do a lot of work in the corporate

world as you know and you know one of

the things that we run into all the time

you know some look up and say okay I I I

agree I I hate lectures I hate all this

formal stuff that we're doing uh but you

know the senior management team wants

everybody every leader to learn this

stuff

yeah uh as so how can you construct

something that would meet those needs

and yet be

more OJT or whatever well uh that uh

that lies uh within the the field or the

discipline that sometimes we refer to as

the competency movement and and there is

this view among some Executives and

people even in the HR field as you know

that feel that all you have to do is

come up with this set of generic

competencies and teach those

competencies to our to our staff to our

managerial staff and of course we'll all

be on the same team exactly right but uh

I I don't think that uh

enshrining knowledge as it were in a set

of generic competencies is going to be

able to get us off square one when it

comes to dealing with what did I call it

the imponderables the things that kind

of really sty us it's that experience

that we have sometimes when we're we're

stuck right what we need are uh more uh

meta competencies or organic

competencies that arise from doing the

work itself of which you are the expert

youve you've become the expert because

of your focus and concentration right so

I like to see uh the more Progressive

executive realized that this competency

is not going to come from some kind of

generic set of uh pieces of knowledge

but something that is going to arise

from people doing their own specific

work okay okay so I'm the learning

manager at Corporation X and I agree

with you y how do I do

it right well uh what you could do would

be uh to bring people in kind of some

kind of Observer or research capacity

and have them kind of uh observe and uh

inquire about people as they're doing

the work right and around the the list

that might be produced or the set of

meta companies that might reproduce you

could then bring others in who are new

to the practice and this I guess is the

concern how do you bring new people into

the practice that can can can uptake

almost as quickly as those that are

currently uh expert and have a convers

have a dialogue about this experience

and this then becomes kind of like this

uh

mentorship experience that we remember

from the old days of apprenticeship and

I think it's that kind of uh a realtime

model that I think is going to be far

more powerful than taking people sending

them away you know to some artificial

place where they're going to apparently

learn the compe and come learn the and

come back cuz when they come back going

to happen they're going to unlearn most

of the things because they probably

don't apply to the absolutely and that

of course takes place especially in the

domain of leadership softer absolutely

but you know one of our predictions uh

uh that we did a year or so ago was that

there'll be a return to the

apprenticeship model in the corporate

world I can't agree with you yeah yeah

uh I mean I really I really do um think

that the people in the training world

today in the corporate right world are

struggling with

um a concept that Executives have that

whatever education we deliver should be

like what I got yeah whenever I got my

Executive Education right uh which was

almost for sure formal classroom based

and generic that's right that's right um

and they don't realize how much they

actually learned as they were as they

were doing doing right and so I think

the real challenge uh is um to kind of

build Mentor programs and

um you know one of the questions that we

just got asked the the other day well

should these be formal or informal

should you have specifically appointed

mentors or should it just sort of arise

accidentally what are your thoughts of

oh wow yeah

um I think it's nice when it arises

naturally but I don't think people are

automatically great mentors or coaches

as we know right uh often what happens

in action learning for example when

we're looking for coaches and sponsors

of programs and we bring people in from

the corporate world they feel because of

their immersion in the classroom model

that the way to do it is to tell War

Stories right this is how I would do it

young lad or young

last but uh really the mentorship role

is to be the listener isn't it right and

to kind of engage and it's this

engagement this dialogue this inquiry

that is going to be the base of learning

I mean community communication probably

is the fundamental uh resource that we

have to produce uh new learning um so we

need mentors and coaches to to operate

out of that domain not out of a domain

of uh being the expert who can tell you

what you need to I think that expert

knowledge thing is the is the hard one

and I've heard a lot of people say well

you know this guy wants to be a mentor

yeah and he thinks he's an expert but

he's not right and I'm afraid if I let

him Mentor that he'll

corrupt this person right or or they're

not going to learn the right thing you

know so you know I think the I keep

going back and saying you know to me the

internet's the great yeah um Informer if

you want data or facts right or

information you can get that from let's

just say for sake of Simplicity from the

internet right um what you can't get

from the Internet is that thinking about

what that means or how that plays out

that

in the instant case in the in that yes

and so I think the issue is really to

forget that the uh I think our old model

was Professor teacher is a data dumper

yeah and my job as a teacher is to dump

everything I know into your head right

right um and I that's probably not a

valid model I'd like to hear your

thoughts on that and uh what's probably

more valid is that that teacher has to

be more like a Socrates you know yeah I

I think of the teacher uh probably the

ideal teacher role is being the

facilitator the orchestrator of a series

of events from which knowledge can

emerge from the practice itself and what

would be the practice it's again it's

not just uh people having a nice debate

about you know a passage in a book but

it would be really nice if the practice

were engagement in you know whatever the

craft is that people could be a

philosophy text or it could be an enging

problem I think it applies across the

board yeah yeah so of course that brings

us to education model of higher

education that I just going to ask you

yeah where's it going what's happened

there well is I mean you've been in the

higher ed formal education space at the

University level for a long time right

um has it changed since you began your

career and and has it changed for the

better or the worse it hasn't changed

very much Kevin uh except that I made

this move to nor Eastern University

because it's one of the better known

co-op programs in the United States uh

better known among very few and how want

explain what a co-op program is well

it's a for for viewers that don't know

about it a co-op program which is called

the sandwich approach in the UK by the

way it's called work integrated learning

in Australia it's a program of studies

where you intersperse your classroom

education with a period of time when you

actually actually do work in the

workforce as just a regular employee and

you get paid for the work and then you

come back and uh presumably when you're

back in the classroom you now have these

these experiences that you can then

relate to the uh to the classroom

experience so this interspersing of both

and I think it's a really a wonderful

model and I would love to see that as

the Stellar model of higher education

but um when you ask me if things change

very much I would say no cuz I have very

many co-op programs so I think we're

still using the tried and true uh

classroom approach where again the the

uh the idea of uh knowledge is a

transfer MH and you know what do you

think about um uh almost sort of in the

side here about the open University

concept or virtual University of Phoenix

or the online universities are they

going to grow and dominate or are they

just a niche or what's well I think

they're they're becoming very popular

we're seeing that of course at the grad

level even in the field that I work in

the NBA for example it's extremely

popular and I think there's a role for

them uh there's an opportunity to bring

people and different societies different

cultures together so we used to talk a

lot about action learning and there's

this kind of New Field called virtual

action learning and although I may have

been a little dubious at times I think

there's some engagement in learning

teams that can be extremely rich mhm

uh I guess the question though is you

know can it uh duplicate the actual

experience of dialogue in the way that

you and I think about it as a kind of

collaborative engagement and I think

that's an area where I think the tools

have to kind of become just a little bit

more sophisticated because it's out of

that dialogue that you create the

practices and the concepts right that

really talk to how we experience the

world and can that be replicated you

know in a virtual

environment it's a great question I it's

a I don't have the answer I don't think

anyone does yet I mean I've seen some

really good uh attempts uh of you know

mostly text based you know online sort

of interaction conversations I've

delivered a course that way right um I

thought it was it was really good in

some ways and that I could um engage

people that would not engage face to

face right uh on the other hand uh you

don't really have that sort of immediacy

of give and take and so forth so and not

to mention when it comes just to kind of

work through some of the technical

skills you need I mean it's almost

Irreplaceable right right right but uh

right in terms of the uh the give and

take that we associate with dialogic

communication uh I think we just need to

kind of uh reach a higher level of of

advancement there but it could be around

the corner yeah I I think it probably is

I think it's partly a technology issue

you can get streaming real time Time

video right uh that changes the whole

game that does and then we have to

overcome you know just minor you might

say incidental concerns like you know

time changes what do you do when you're

communicating with someone who's

sleeping over in India for example yeah

no question at least from a if

synchronicity is your goal if it's an

asynchronous environment we probably

overcome it but yeah and I think the

corporate world has been struggling with

this uh synchronicity issue for quite a

long time how do you how do you do that

right um I think the uh the other um

issue is the sort of the sociological

mindset changes and you know people our

age have a lot more trouble I think

interacting in that world know than the

younger kids do and you know I'm just

I'm I'm I'm expecting that they're going

to be very comfortable in this space and

find it uh maybe maybe as engaging as we

do face to face it'll be interesting to

see

that's going to be fascinating to follow

so I think we're almost out end of our

time so fast we just got started I we

just got started uh any final thoughts

or

uh well if you're going to do your

prediction for uh 2020 on what's uh

education going to look like uh what's

education going to look like what's uh

work going to look like um well just a

couple of thoughts on both uh when it

comes to work I would think that we're

going to include the relational aspects

of work a little bit more in our

thinking in the future uh when it comes

to work and career I think we come from

a tradition maybe it's a western

tradition that you know where the

captain of our own destiny you know and

yet there's so many things that go on to

interfere or intersect with our destiny

our intentions so I think as we uh get

more involved in social networks as we

begin to think about the various

stakeholders that have an impact on our

career I think that will incorporate

some changes in how we even view the

very concept of work yeah and then I

think learning it just follows suit you

know that learning is not just going to

come from a historical Source it's going

to come from some kind of assemblage of

these stakeholders you know to our our

knowledge who uh who role will become

critical in enhancing our own our own

learning yeah thanks so much oh it's

been great it's always great to talk

with you