How Luxury Beliefs are Ruining Society, with Rob Henderson
Summary
TLDR在这段对话中,Rob Henderson分享了他的新书《Troubled》的核心观点,探讨了精英阶层与社会大众之间的脱节,以及这种脱节如何影响社会政策和教育制度。他通过个人经历,包括在洛杉矶的贫困生活、寄养系统的经历,以及在耶鲁大学的学习,揭示了社会不平等和精英统治的问题。Henderson强调了社会对所有人的责任,以及为了实现更好的社会结果,需要对抗错误决策和意识形态的挑战。
Takeaways
- 📚 罗布·亨德森的书《麻煩》探讨了精英阶层与社会其他阶层之间的脱节,以及这种脱节如何影响社会政策和普通人的生活。
- 🧐 亨德森通过自己的经历,包括在洛杉矶的贫困生活、寄养系统的经历,以及在耶鲁大学的学习,揭示了社会不平等的不同面貌。
- 🏆 尽管《麻煩》一书符合《纽约时报》畅销书榜的标准,但并未上榜,作者和出版社正在调查原因,这可能与书中挑战主流观点有关。
- 🤔 亨德森讨论了奢侈品信仰的概念,即精英阶层持有与现实脱节的信念,这些信念可能导致对边缘化和弱势群体不利的政策。
- 👨👩👧 家庭背景和成长经历对个人价值观和信仰的形成有重大影响,亨德森的亚洲母亲和墨西哥父亲的混合血统背景为他提供了独特的视角。
- 🎓 教育系统的变化,如在旧金山公立学校推迟教授代数,可能会对低收入学生产生不利影响,限制了他们未来的学术和职业发展。
- 🚔 警察资金削减运动和对执法态度的变化导致了犯罪率的上升,亨德森通过数据和个人观察强调了这一点。
- 🏫 标准化考试和择优录取对于低收入和少数族裔学生来说是重要的社会流动工具,但这些概念近年来受到了质疑和攻击。
- 🤝 社会对每个人都有责任,亨德森认为政府应该为所有公民服务,提供有效的政府、学校和其他机构。
- 💡 亨德森强调了言论自由和学术自由的重要性,并认为这些自由不是自然而然就会存在的,需要社会成员不断地维护和争取。
- 🌐 社会需要更多有影响力的人勇敢地发表意见,诚实地讨论问题,而不是屈服于当前的政治正确或舆论压力。
Q & A
Rob Henderson的书《Troubled》主要探讨了哪些问题?
-Rob Henderson的书《Troubled》主要探讨了精英阶层与社会其他阶层之间的鸿沟,以及这种鸿沟如何影响社会政策和普通人的生活。书中还讨论了奢侈品信仰的概念,以及这些信仰如何导致社会基本层面的破裂,比如公共安全和刑事司法改革。
Rob Henderson的个人背景对他的观点有何影响?
-Rob Henderson的个人背景对他的世界观和观点有着深远的影响。他的成长经历,包括在洛杉矶的贫民窟生活、在寄养系统中的经历、以及后来被一个工薪家庭收养,都让他对社会的不平等和结构性问题有了深刻的理解和同情。这些经历使他对精英阶层的观点和决策持有批判态度,并在书中进行了深入探讨。
Rob Henderson如何看待标准化测试和择优录取?
-Rob Henderson支持标准化测试和择优录取。他认为这些制度能够帮助来自非传统背景的人获得提升的机会。他通过个人经历和研究数据来支持他的观点,认为标准化测试特别是对低收入和代表性不足的群体有利。他还批评了当前教育系统中取消这些制度的趋势,认为这会加剧社会的不平等。
Rob Henderson在书中提到了哪些社会问题?
-Rob Henderson在书中提到了多种社会问题,包括精英阶层的奢侈品信仰、社会基本层面的破裂、公共安全和刑事司法改革、教育系统中的不平等、以及社会对贫困和犯罪的态度等。他批评了精英阶层制定的政策往往与普通民众的需求和经验脱节,导致了社会的混乱和不公。
Rob Henderson对于精英阶层的看法是什么?
-Rob Henderson认为精英阶层在塑造社会话语和决策方面拥有巨大的影响力,但他们的观点和决策往往与社会的大多数人脱节。他指出精英阶层倾向于制定出一些听起来很好,但实际上对弱势群体有害的政策。他还提到精英阶层对于自己的地位和孩子的未来感到焦虑,这种焦虑可能导致他们在教育和职业机会上采取有利于自己孩子的措施。
Rob Henderson的书《Troubled》为何没有出现在《纽约时报》畅销书榜上?
-尽管Rob Henderson的书《Troubled》销售情况良好,达到了《纽约时报》畅销书榜的标准,但它并未出现在榜单上。Rob和他的出版商正在调查这一情况,这可能与书中挑战精英阶层观点的内容有关,这些观点可能不受某些有影响力的人群欢迎。
Rob Henderson如何看待警察和刑事司法改革?
-Rob Henderson认为警察和刑事司法改革是必要的,但他反对完全废除警察和刑事司法系统。他指出,暴力犯罪的增加与警察资金的削减有关,而且这种增加的犯罪对贫困社区的影响尤其严重。他主张应该有更多的对话和辩论,以找到既能保护人民安全,又能纠正行为的平衡点。
Rob Henderson对于教育系统的看法是什么?
-Rob Henderson对教育系统持有批判态度,特别是对于公立学校系统。他认为,教育系统未能为所有学生提供平等的机会,特别是在旧金山这样的城市,精英阶层更倾向于将孩子送入私立学校。他还批评了教育系统中取消标准化测试和择优录取的趋势,认为这些措施对低收入和代表性不足的学生不利。
Rob Henderson在书中提到的“奢侈品信仰”是什么?
-Rob Henderson在书中提到的“奢侈品信仰”是指那些听起来很高尚但实际上对普通人有害的信念。这些信仰往往由精英阶层提出,并在社会上广泛传播,但它们往往与普通人的实际经验脱节,导致了社会政策的失误和不公。
Rob Henderson对于社会不平等的看法是什么?
-Rob Henderson认为社会不平等是一个严重的问题,它不仅体现在经济上,还体现在教育、司法和安全等多个方面。他指出,精英阶层的政策往往加剧了这种不平等,而不是缓解它。他主张社会应该提供更多的机会和资源,以帮助弱势群体提升自己的地位。
Rob Henderson对于精英大学的看法是什么?
-Rob Henderson认为精英大学在提供教育和社会流动性方面发挥了重要作用,但他也指出了这些大学存在的问题,包括对精英阶层的子女过度倾斜的招生政策,以及学生和教职工中普遍存在的地位焦虑。他提倡应该有更多的对话和辩论,以确保这些机构能够更好地服务于社会的所有成员。
Outlines
🌟 与作家Rob Henderson的对话
主持人与作家Rob Henderson就其著作《Troubled》进行深入对话。Rob讨论了政治、社会问题,特别是加州和旧金山的政治现象,以及精英阶层如何因日常经验与普罗大众脱节而做出看似有道德信号却可能适得其反的决策。Rob的成长背景和经历也在对话中被提及,他的书籍因为挑战了精英阶层的观点而可能未被列入《纽约时报》畅销书榜,尽管销量极佳。
📚 Rob Henderson的个人历程
Rob Henderson分享了他的个人成长经历,包括他的韩裔母亲和墨西哥裔父亲的背景,以及他在洛杉矶的贫困和无家可归的生活。他提到了自己在寄养系统中的经历,以及后来被一个工人阶级家庭收养,并在加州北部的Red Bluff长大。Rob讨论了他与父母的关系,以及他如何在学术和个人生活中克服困难。
🛫 从贫困到精英教育的跨越
Rob讲述了他如何从贫困和不稳定的家庭环境进入Yale大学,并在空军服役期间的经历。他讨论了结构和权威对他个人成长的影响,以及如何在权威和自我放逐之间找到平衡。Rob还分享了他对于教育的看法,包括他对标准化测试的支持,以及他认为这些测试对于低收入和少数族裔学生的重要性。
🚨 社会问题与精英阶层的脱节
对话中,Rob和主持人探讨了社会问题,特别是犯罪、警察资金削减和教育改革等议题。他们讨论了精英阶层如何与普通民众的生活经验脱节,以及这种脱节如何导致政策制定的失误和社会问题的加剧。Rob强调了对于犯罪受害者的关注,以及社会对于不同社会阶层犯罪行为的不同反应。
📈 书籍成功与媒体的关注
Rob讨论了他的书籍《Troubled》的成功,尽管销量表明应该进入《纽约时报》畅销书榜,但却未被列入。他和出版商正在调查原因,怀疑可能与书中挑战精英阶层观点有关。Rob还讨论了公立学校教育的重要性,以及他对当前教育改革的一些看法,特别是关于标准化测试和择优录取的观点。
🎓 教育与社会流动性
Rob分享了他个人的教育经历,包括他在高中的表现和后来如何通过SAT考试和社区学院的课程提高自己的大学申请资料。他强调了标准化测试对于低收入和少数族裔学生的重要性,并举例说明了标准化测试如何帮助这些学生获得更好的教育机会。Rob批评了当前教育政策的一些趋势,如取消标准化测试和择优录取,他认为这些政策忽视了帮助弱势群体提升社会地位的重要性。
🌐 当前社会与意识形态的挑战
Rob和主持人讨论了当前社会中意识形态如何影响政策和决策,特别是关于种族和经济不平等的讨论。Rob提出了对于当前教育和社会政策的批评,认为这些政策往往忽视了实际效果,而更多地受到意识形态的驱动。他还讨论了精英阶层的地位焦虑,以及这种焦虑如何影响他们对子女教育的态度和对社会政策的看法。
🗣️ 知识分子的责任与挑战
在对话的最后,Rob强调了知识分子和有影响力的人应该承担起社会责任,勇于发表自己的观点,即使这些观点可能与主流意识形态相悖。他讨论了言论自由和学术自由的重要性,以及这些自由在历史上的罕见性和脆弱性。Rob呼吁人们珍惜并捍卫这些自由,对抗任何可能限制言论和思想的势力。
Mindmap
Keywords
💡精英阶层
💡奢侈品信念
💡社会断裂
💡教育公平
💡标准化测试
💡意识形态
💡社会正义
💡个人奋斗
💡社会责任感
💡意识形态偏差
Highlights
Rob Henderson讨论了他的新书《Troubled》以及书中探讨的精英阶层的虚伪和双重标准。
讨论了加州和旧金山政治中的问题,特别是精英们做出的脱离民众的决策。
Rob的个人背景,包括他的亚洲裔美国人身份和成长过程中的挑战。
Rob的三重名字背后的故事,以及它们如何反映了他复杂的家庭历史。
讨论了美国社会对于童年创伤的处理不足,以及这种创伤如何在成年后表现出来。
Rob在洛杉矶和红崖(Red Bluff)的不同生活经历,以及这些经历如何塑造了他对美国社会不同阶层的理解。
Rob在空军的经历,以及这种结构化环境如何对他产生了积极影响。
讨论了权威与权威主义在教育和育儿中的区别,以及找到平衡的重要性。
探讨了精英阶层如何通过媒体和政策制定影响社会叙事,但往往与普通民众的现实脱节。
讨论了精英阶层对警察改革和公共安全的态度,以及这些态度如何与他们自身的经验不符。
Transcripts
hey everyone today I'm sitting down with
the author Rob Henderson I got to know
him on X because he started writing
about a lot of the things that I was
seeing and worried about in politics in
California and San Francisco ultimately
you have a group of people who are
making virtue signaling decisions about
the most important things in our society
and they're operating off of a
day-to-day lived experience that is
basically disconnected from the people
that they aim to try to help they say
they're helping but the outcomes seem
like they're the opposite Rob
Henderson's book troubled is a really
important one because it talks exactly
about why that happens and how that
happens how do people acquire luxury
beliefs I had a great conversation with
him and he's got a book that is selling
so well well it should be on the New
York Times bestseller list but someone
is holding the finger down on the scale
why because this idea of luxury beliefs
is so important it endangers the very
being of a lot of people who are the
Elite who actually decide who goes on
that list who gets that headline and
sometimes who gets that funding from the
government so let's get
started
[Applause]
[Music]
Rob thanks a lot for coming on the
channel uh really big fan of you from
the internet and then it's always uh a
treat to be able to spend time with you
know a kindred spirit your book really
really spoke to me and thanks for being
here yeah thanks Gary yeah it's it's
great to be here yeah I'm honored uh
that you're taking the time to to speak
with me today I guess there's a lot in
your story that really resonates for me
I remember you know it's a little
different in that I did have both my
parents on the other hand you know my
father struggled with alcoholism and you
know it really subjected me and my
brother to a lot and frankly my mom to a
ton of trauma that as asian-americans
often we just sort of go into American
society assuming you know what like I'm
normal I'm fine and then it came out in
lots of really strange ways your book
sort of talks about that at length I
wonder where to start you sort of even
start the preface right off the bat with
you know sort of your three names I
wonder if you could talk about that yeah
I opened the book this way just to give
the reader a sense of you know what the
story is and who the author of This Book
Is So my full name is Robert Kim
Henderson and each of my three names was
taken from a different adult my first
name Robert is the supposed name of my
biological father so I was born into
poverty my mother and I we were homeless
for a short while we lived in a car we
eventually settled in a slum apartment
in LA and you know later when I was put
in the foster care system some social
workers and forensic psychologists asked
my mom and where's this boy's father
because you're not in a position to care
for him and she said she really didn't
know she had some vague sense that his
name was Robert but she didn't have any
memory of him or where he was or what he
did my mother she came to the US from
Soul South Korea as a young woman to
study and then she started partying and
doing a lot of drugs and that's you know
kind of where her life went and why I
was put into care and my father I
actually had no information about him
other than his name supposedly but I
took a 23 in me test last year and
learned that I'm half Hispanic on my
father's side so I'm half Mexican half
Korean and my middle name Kim that's my
birth mother's name you know Common
Korean surname and my last name
Henderson comes from My adoptive father
so when I was taken from my birth mother
I was placed into the Los Angeles County
foster care system spent the next just
shy of five years in seven different
homes around
La then I was adopted by this
workingclass family and we settled in
this kind of Dusty bluecollar town in
northern California called called Red
Bluff way up North about 2 hours north
of Sacramento it's a part of California
most people aren't familiar with but
it's a very kind of rundown poor kind of
kind of rural area and My adoptive
parents you know they experienced kind
of what a lot of families are
experiencing across the country sort of
working class and lower middle class
families the
deterioration and the instability and
the separation I mean they so they
divorced about 18 months after adopting
me My adoptive father was upset with My
adoptive mother for leaving him and he
retaliated by cutting off contact with
me because he figured this
would you know this would inflict some
pain on my mother which it did and so
from there I was raised by a single mom
for a time and and there were other sort
of family transitions after the fact
there but those were the names that were
given to me and each of those three
names were taken from adults that
I no longer speak with and have you know
essentially either neglected or
abandoned me during my
childhood one of the crazy things about
American society is I think really
doesn't give people who experience
things like that Trauma from childhood
like we just they just it doesn't get
very much space it's like not something
that people talk about if anything when
we go off into polite Society we spend a
lot of time pretending we you know fit
in and none of that stuff happened my
freshman year at Stanford I had a uh
academic residential adviser who you
know explicitly the the goal of that
person is to be a resource or someone to
like help you get used to you know
University life and then I remember
sending them emails about you know sort
of the stuff I was dealing with around
like verbal abuse from my parents and
like sort of really really intense
familial obligations and there's just no
engagement there's like a long stretch
of the book where you sort of talk about
like your high school years but you did
end up also at Yale so you know that's
sort of like the two ends of the
spectrum right both of us experiencing
quite a bit of trauma early and then you
know joining polite Society in some way
and like realizing oh you know we really
don't quite fit in there is actually a
lot of difference between our experience
and like the normal Elite experience at
top schools yeah it's uh it's
interesting right like I when I started
writing this book this lingering concern
I had was like would anyone relate any
of this because I had such an unusual
upbringing at one point I took this uh
this childhood instability scale that I
came across in a developmental
psychology paper and AC score then right
it's it's so this is separate from the
AC it's very similar it's very similar
to the ace scores the adverse childhood
experiences score and you know I did the
you know the basic statistics and found
that I scored in the top 1% of most
unstable childhoods in the US and I'm
like man this is like you know people
are going to read this and be like this
is such an alien experience to me but
what I've been surprised by is just how
many people have connected with this
story and not even people who grew up
you know working class are poor the way
that I did for long stretches of my
upbringing but even people who had kind
of more middle class upbringings but you
know they had they experienced family
instability or someone in their family
suffered from addiction or a lot of
people's parents have had their own
issues that they were dealing with and
took it out on their kids or their
spouse and you're right it's it's
something that's that's under discussed
and people either don't speak about it
at all or if they do they use they speak
about it indirectly in the language of
like poverty or
inequality but you know there are people
who don't necessarily lack in terms of
material resources but they're acting
out the
emotional difficulties and experiences
they had early in their lives the
instability and the self-defeating
choices and all those things and then
when they have fam as you see they take
it out on their kids and or they don't
they just uh you know take it out of
their kids by not speaking to the kids
right that by abandoning them or
neglecting them and that's sort of how
they're acting out I saw kind of every
angle of that not just from my own
experience growing up in LA and then in
Red Bluff but also my my friends you
know I talk about my experiences in the
foster homes and divorces and
separations and being raised by a single
mom and all that stuff but I had five
close friends growing up in Red Bluff
and they also had very difficult
experiences you know raised by single
moms or abusive stepparents or or I had
one friend who was raised by his
grandmother because his mom was on drugs
his dad was in prison actually I had two
friends whose dads were kind of in and
out of prison all throughout our
childhood so I write about those
experiences too about how this is
actually more common than a lot of
people think especially people in that
sort of tippy top you know at or near
the elite segments of society and I kind
of came to realize this vast sort of
Chasm between Elites and everyone else
when I got to Yale and to came too to
sort of see I sort of Step by Step the
foster homes this workingclass community
then I was in the Air Force then I went
off to Yale and I kind of saw like
different strata of American society all
along the way and so yeah the book
covers a lot of a lot of what I saw and
what I learned yeah your time in the Air
Force sounds really interesting in that
it's structure and then I guess in my
own experience I found that I really
like situations that are sort of like
high Love Low structure that that was
sort of what I craved but it was a
surprise to me uh entering into like the
workforce and becoming a manager and
trying to run companies and realizing
that actually that's not normal like
basically what people seem to love is
high love High structure people actually
really want structure whereas a deep
part of me is like sort of angst against
uh Authority because of my own
upbringing so I just didn't want anyone
to tell me what to do or control me and
how much that made me who I am in a lot
of ways yeah I had this kind of LoveHate
relationship with authority I had this
kind of instinctive mistrust of adults
just from being in the system so long
from you know each time I moved to a
different foster home it did feel like
this sense of betrayal especially once I
grew old enough to understand what was
happening to me and just the sort of
fleeting connections that I had where
I'd go to one home one family then the
next family and then yeah later when I
was adopted was in contact with my
adopted father and so you know by the
time I you know was in Middle School or
high school and teachers would ask me to
do homework or do these things I was
just very skeptical of this whole
Enterprise anytime an adult said this
was important I would think I have this
line in the book about how for a lot of
kids if adults repeatedly let you down
you eventually learn to let yourself
down and that's what happened with me
it's what happened with a lot of my
friends that if you're a young child and
you know your parents are the adult
people in your life those they're your
whole world and they don't put your
priorities first then as you kind of
come online and enter the world you stop
really prioritizing your own needs um at
least long-term needs maybe short-term
hedonistic gratification just the
pursuit of short-term pleasure to forget
about your circumstances and to forget
about all the things going on around you
and so yeah this was uh yeah something
something that we we dealt with and you
know took took a while to to overcome
some of it I mean it was interesting
like the Air Force when I initially
joined I hated it actually um I wasn't
actually expecting it to be quite that
rigid and quite that intense I joined at
a unique time too I mean I left I was 17
years old uh when I enlisted I had to
have my adoptive mom sign a permission
slip because I was underage and this was
2007 so this was like the height of the
war on terror Iraq and Afghanistan and
so like the Air Force had revamped their
training regimen and it was like it was
more intense than I expected and I
didn't like it but I have this story the
book where I talked to my friend Tyler
who he served 12 months in San Quinton
state in prison in California and he he
had just got out of prison I'm telling
the story and I I you know I visit him I
was you know one or two years into my
enlistment and we both were describing
our respective experiences he was
talking about prison I was talking about
the military and we both kind of
realized like oh like we had very
similar experiences where like every
aspect of your life is tightly
controlled from what time the lights
come on to like you know like where
you're supposed to be and who you report
to and every every little thing and we
both came to this agreement that we both
really hated it at first but gradually
we came to actually appreciate the
structure and the stability that we had
lacked when we were growing up and he
liked it so much he actually went back
to
prison and I liked it so much I actually
reenlisted so I served eight years in
total I did four two four year
enlistments thanks for your service no
thank you yeah thanks man yeah and so it
it's like you know when you grow up in
like with a complete lack of norms like
no parents really I mean we had Parents
around but they were kind of halfway
checked out that on some level we were I
think craving that stability that
structure in our lives and even if we
kind of rebelled against it and pushed
against it at first we gradually grew to
appreciate that there was something
comforting about it too uh so yeah it's
it's h it's not straightforward right it
was like oh structure how how fun and
how great and everything it was more
like I really hate this but then as you
sort of live through it it's like oh has
actually been good for me on some level
at least in our experience you know not
it doesn't work for everyone I
definitely don't recommend like everyone
join the military or go to prison or
anything like that but for certain kinds
of people I think limits can be useful
yeah it's interesting I mean for folks
who have like sort of super stable
households Andor I mean being a parent
now I realize to what degree I actually
have to learn how to be a parent totally
from first principles in a lot of ways
and that's been really hard I think the
the thing I struggled the most with
now is sort is is sort of knowing how to
actually be authoritative instead of
authoritarian or self abandoning right
and then in parenting that's like one of
the primary issues some people have
parents who are way too permissive some
people or not present right or you have
parents who are way extremely
overbearing and have their own issues
and then really good parenting is sort
of someplace in the middle and then
being a really good manager is like
someplace in the the middle as well yeah
that's that's yeah I remember taking a
developmental psychology course and like
probably every parent knows this or
everyone who sort of flipped through a
parenting book they have that like the
three kind of basic categories of
parenting like there yeah there was the
authoritarian parenting which is just as
yeah very overbearing abusive or
borderline abusive and then yeah
authoritative which is you know having
boundaries and limits but not going
overboard and then yeah that sort of Laz
Fair complete hands-off style and I
think like when I when I speak to a lot
of especially kind of like more upper
upper middle class parents they are
concerned about that boundary between
authoritarian and authoritative where if
you behave in an authoritative way I
think a lot of parents worry that
they're being authoritarian when they're
not and so trying to find that that lie
I'm not a parent so I don't know but I I
I think I have like some understanding
just from speaking that that can be a
very kind of difficult tight rope what's
funny is it's fractal right we spent a
lot of time with AI and in artificial
intelligence you spend a lot of time
thinking about training and training run
like parenting is basically training a
human intelligence and it takes its own
like you know more than 20,000 hours of
really intense back-to-back attention
and you know of course the outcomes are
going to be radically different based on
what training you subject the human
intelligence to actually it's uh very
very strong non-stop reinforcement
learning you know and then it's fractal
because you know I I think one of the my
favorite things from your substack and
some of the ideas that you've been
putting out on the internet I that
really resonate with me are really about
this idea of luxury beliefs and there's
sort of this link between people's
attitudes towards parenting to actually
discipline of children to actually all
the way over to Public Safety and you
know Criminal Justice Reform what is the
role of the state in protecting people
or correcting Behavior or diverting them
from path a versus path B I think that
that debate actually really needs to
happen because right now they seem very
disconnected and I feel like that's
where the luxury beliefs sort of come
from if you have an elite that defines
the narrative that sets the rules sets
the boundaries for society and then has
no connection to your experience or my
experience or you know the experience of
actually a large percentage of the
population then the policies do not
serve the people and then people are
confused and surprised
Andor invoke a lot of the sort of
invective that they do around calling
someone carceral or and It's tricky
because obviously we want a police that
is you know they do their jobs right we
don't want an abusive police structure
but we also want one that like keeps
people safe and then you know even at
the level of school like in San
Francisco we have this crazy problem of
middle schools that are very violent
actually and then even if you wanted to
achieve in those environments the
environments are so disruptive and so
not conducive to learning that you know
guess what like the test scores are bad
and you know it's not possible and we
sort of allow it right and so there's a
deep connection between luxury beliefs
and like a breakdown in society at these
sort of fundamental levels for our
children and for our elders and for
ourselves in blue cities having some
limits some boundaries some consequences
for misbehavior I mean this is like sort
of basic Behavioral Science that people
respond to incentives and if you sort of
remove all penalties for every possible
form of misconduct like some small
percentage of the population will start
to essentially abuse or manipulate
people around them and you know we can I
think we can kind of see that yeah in in
the wake of the sort of defund the
police movement and I mean it's so funny
like I I talk about this in the book I I
report the statistics around defund the
police there was this really large scale
survey representative survey from yugov
in 2020 which found that and when they
broke down the responses by income
category the highest income Americans
were the most in support of defunding
the police there were kind of smaller
surveys done in specific cities during
that period uh New York City Detroit I
think Minneapolis too and they found
that the group that was the most in
support of defunding the police were
white Democrats and that Black and
Hispanic residents of these cities were
the least in favor of it and yet you
know the people the activists and you
know people who uh take on the manole of
being representatives for these
marginalized and disadvantaged groups
they hold the opposite view where
actually what's happening is you need to
reduce resources to the police and
cultivate an attitude toward suspicion
toward law enforcement and you know then
we saw what happened in the wake of that
that violent crime spiked homicides
rates increased between 2020 and 2022
and it was like you know I remember
reading like I'd open the pages of the
Wall Street Journal in like 2022 and it
would say you know year-over-year
homicides increased x% over the last two
years and you know these would be folded
into these aggregate snapshot statistics
but then over the last I don't know year
or so there were these high-profile
murders of like there was one I think
there was there was a tech executive in
San Francisco I don't recall the
specifics of that case but he got
stabbed in in San Francisco that one
turned out to be a uh Crime of Passion
apparently oh interesting okay and um
but there are very horrible examples of
actually totally random violence Sheria
mcoa was a upen grad moved to San
Francisco to follow his dreams had a new
newborn uh and he got run over and
killed on the west side of the city by a
repeat offender who was just totally out
of his mind on drugs and if you don't
have yeah if you literally just don't
have consequences for people who have a
wrap sheet that is a mile long then in
exchange for The Virtue signal of
politicians you have random deaths
dozens to hundreds of random deaths and
Mings and you know these are sort of
things that actually break down Society
in that way because a child being raised
by a single father or mother who gets
killed well that's an orphan right
that's another person who enters the
Foster system like there's you know a
real breakdown here that you know
Society needs to look out for each other
and it's not happening and it's you know
not happening largely because the elites
who sort of set the narrative and write
the headlines you know all of the things
that you're talking about are more or
less foreign to them yeah and they don't
seem to recognize sort of their own
class biases you know so so you
mentioned this person this upen graduate
there were those two high-profile cases
of journalists being killed in the last
few months and those people get
identified by name in the media you know
they have articles WR about them we
learned their names and you know I was
reading these reports and I'm thinking
okay if you're you know if you're just a
poor person in a low-income neighborhood
and you get shot or stabbed or attacked
you know you just get folded into this
the statistics but if you're a member of
the modern aristocracy and you're a
college graduate and you're a journalist
or you graduate from an elite school
even if you know even if and when these
policies do catch up and occasionally
involve or you know victimize one of
these people you know they get Tre
treated very differently they get these
you know entire articles written about
them and it's like they get honored as
like you know what a member of the
nobility was killed and they get like an
entire piece written about them and
meanwhile like dozens of ordinary people
are being victimized too and they're not
sort of described in the same way or or
sort of venerated in the media in the
same terms and you know it's funny like
that I'm curious about like just you
know because I study psychology and I'm
interested in how these things work from
a sort of psychological perspective of
my impression is that at least for a
large segment of cultural Elites that
when a police officer kills someone like
that's seen as somehow more egregious
than if sort of one low-income person
with like a rap sheet a mile long kills
some other poor person in both cases a
life is still lost but if an officer
does it in the line of duty this is seen
as extremely egregious but if one poor
person kills another it's just kind of
like oh you know like that's you know
that's just a consequence of freedom I
guess or I'm not sure like what the
mindset is there but it's just like in
the aggregate if there's 1% of the
population that is disproportionately
unlawful and a disproportionate
percentage of that 1% happens to be
people from marginalized or dispossessed
groups the thinking seems to be well we
just won't enforce laws anymore but
they're victimizing people around them
and the people they're victimizing also
tend to be disproportionately poor from
marginalized backgrounds as well you
know other I cite these stats in the
book too about how compared to Americans
who earn more than $75,000 a year the
lowest income Americans are seven times
more likely to be victims of aggravated
assault seven times more likely to be
victims of robbery 20 times more likely
to be victims of sexual assault and
homicide and essentially like every
crime you can think of the poor are the
most likely to be victimized by it and
people are much more likely to be
victimized by crime than perpetrators
but we focus so much on the perpetrators
of crime and how they come from is you
know marginalized and deprived
backgrounds but we don't think that much
about their victims and what happens
with them they don't get the same amount
of attention I think which is a shame I
mean if there's a criminal who commits
an act I think we should spend more time
on the victim and their circumstances
rather than the perpetrator yeah I agree
100% I mean a lot of this is ultimately
sort of a breakdown in both state
capacity and media capacity I think
there's sort of epistemic capture at the
med level where you know things that do
not match the dominant current thing
narrative are squelched and one of the
reasons why I'm excited to sort of
showcase you on my YouTube channel is
hearing recently that troubled actually
hit all of the metrics necessary to be
on the New York Times bestseller list
probably by a wide margin and and yet
you know what's going on
there yeah that's a good question we are
you know we're investigating that so
last year you know my agent and you know
the team from my my publisher we all sat
down and thought about doing a kind of a
mini book tour kind of go to some
bookstores do some signings maybe do uh
talks and none of the bookstores we
reached out to and reached out to a lot
uh were willing to host me and then um
more recently the book's been out now
for a little over a week and it sold
extremely well it hit the USA Today
bestseller list and it was number one on
a bunch of categories on Amazon it was
number one this week on Bookshop uh this
sort of aggregate sort of independent
book seller list so it's doing very well
you know my my publisher contacted me
saying yeah we should have hit the New
York Times bestseller list but somehow
we didn't and they're inquiring and
we're trying to get to the bottom of why
this oversight if it is an oversight
occurred but you know it's it's possible
just like with the bookstores being
unwilling to host me for my tour this
issue with the bestseller list may just
be another example I think of the m of
my book maybe unwelcome you know this
idea of luxury beliefs of you know I
describe kind of the hypocrisy and the
duplicity of people who are at or near
the top of society who wield the most
cultural and political influence who
kind of do the most in terms of shaping
the discourse and raising the issues
that we as a society should be caring
about and what goals we should be
aspiring to and I challenge some of
their perspectives like you and I have
been talking about defund the police but
I talk about other issues around family
and about other kinds of issues that are
plaguing marginalized and dispossessed
communities across the US and I think
they're just the people who get wind of
my book and the message and you know
they're not you know 100% supportive of
the things I'm I'm I'm communicating
which I think is you know it's a shame
it's a shame that this is the book I
think should be uncontroversial but
somehow it is uh seen by some as
provocative the people who need to hear
it the most are the ones who might be
most resistant to the message and then
one of the reasons why it really
resonated with me is that I've seen it
firsthand as a resident of San Francisco
you know one of the more shocking things
for me growing up in the Bay Area was
hearing that if you live in San
Francisco and you have children who are
in junior high school and you can't
afford very very expensive private
schools s you know San Francisco is has
some of the highest rates of the elites
sending their children to private school
basically like if you can you do in San
Francisco if that were expanded over all
of America like that wouldn't be a good
thing like I deeply believe that my
public school education helped me a lot
part of the reason why I was able to get
into Stanford and study computer science
was being able to take algebra in
seventh and eth grade and here in San
Francisco you cannot take it until n9th
grade and the argument was that it would
help black and brown kids with equity
and you know the result was exactly the
opposite of that that that it hurt
everyone at every level it watered down
the schools it reduced State capacity it
was an abdication of Duty to the people
which you could argue is the same thing
that we saw around a breakdown in the
criminal justice system one thing that
you talk a lot about is you know
standardized tests actually really help
testing and good education merit-based
schools these are things that clearly
allow people from non-traditional
backgrounds get a leg up and yet why are
these things being sort of torn down
it's yeah it's it's ridiculous I've
written multiple pieces in defense of
standardized testing most recently I
wrote an opit in the Boston Globe you
know both drawing on the data uh which
are crystal clear that standardized
testing is beneficial especially for
low-income kids and kids from
underrepresented groups you know and
then I also draw my own personal
experience with with testing I mean I
was kind of a my own academic record was
very kind of unstable I graduated high
school kind of barely crossed the Finish
Line with a 2.2 GPA and I never really
had this conception of myself as like a
good student or smart or anything like
that but I took the ASVAB the armed
services vocational aptitude battery
which is a military standardized test
and there there been a lot of
interesting research on that test and
it's highly correlated with SAT scores
with cognitive ability all these kinds
of things and I took this test and did
really well on it and that was the first
time that I realized you know my my
recruiter minor Force recruiter showed
me how to convert those scores into sat
results and he was like yeah this is
really good score and then later when I
was applying to college you know people
ask me like how did you get into a with
a 2.2 GPA in high school and one reason
was because I took the SAT uh later and
I got a really good score and I I had
taken some night classes at a community
college and kind of did some other
things too to kind of you know bolster
my my application but uh the SAT score
was really a thing that helped my
application shine through and and let
some of these colleges that I applied to
uh yeah they were willing to take a risk
on me despite my shoddy high school
performance one of my favorite studies
around this there was a study from 2016
led by The Economist David
card and he and his co-authors they ran
this study some School District in
Chicago where apparently the gifted
program at this District initially the
only way you could get into a gifted
program as a kid is if you either had a
a teacher recommendation it had to be
parent and teacher recommendation so it
was based on this kind of subjective
decision uh by these adults and what
David card and his co-authors did was
essentially uh administer tests to all
of these kids standardized tests to
every kid in the school district and
this actually increased the number of
Black and Hispanic and low-income
kidsing uh to qualify for this gifted
program essentially these kids were
being overlooked and they deserve this
gifted status but because of you know
whatever personal bias or misconceptions
about what a gifted child is supposed to
to look like these kids were being
overlooked by teachers by parents by
everyone else I mean part of it is that
if you're a parent and you're you know
you're you're you're not aware of like
how the system works or maybe you're not
even familiar with gifted programs even
if you have a smart kid it may not even
occur to you to tell the teacher hey I
think my kid is smart should we get them
into a gifted program but if every kid
is required to take a test and
automatically if you score above a
certain cuto you're just automatically
enrolled you can get a lot more kids who
ordinarily wouldn't go to these programs
and I just think yeah this is like the
test revealed something about these kids
that you you know that that uh personal
subjective evaluations alone can't uh
can't necessarily do yeah I mean I think
it's very interesting to watch people
talk about Merit as a racist idea it's
very upsetting actually to see that sort
of invective being used against these
Concepts that actually really really
help people get ahead in society and
it's sort of like
believing that you can ban and destroy
all thermometers and no children will
ever have a fever ever again it's like
that's not how it works like the
underlying construct still exists right
like the thing that you care about and
that predicts success academically and
professionally and everywhere else even
if you don't test it it's still going to
shine through and actually if you don't
teach kids to read and you don't teach
kids basic numeracy and all of the kind
of skills that you should equip them
with then they're they're going to fall
even further behind I mean we've seen
this over the last few years with
whatever woke kindergarten and shutting
down the schools and you know I I
remember there was the story of back in
LA county uh where I grew up at least
for part of my childhood where you know
the school district just decided to give
10,000 iPads to the kids and didn't
really monitor how closely these kids
were using these tablets to do well in
school they were supposed to improve
learning outcomes but instead these kids
were just playing games and it kind of
allowed the teachers to take this
hands-off approach of oh go on the iPad
and do XYZ and instead the kids would
just play games and you know that
probably made someone feel good about
themselves that they were doing
something but in the end it just ended
up backfiring and you know like a lot of
these policies are backfiring that we
you know I think a lot of these people
have good intentions and they want to
help these kids but unfortunately like
what makes you feel good and what
actually leads to improved outcomes for
disadvantaged kids those aren't always
the same thing and sometimes you have to
feel you know this is something that i'
I've started to learn through speaking
with teachers at charter schools and
parents and people who like a little bit
of tough love can be okay sometimes that
even if a kid in the moment doesn't like
you if you're telling them to do their
homework or you're telling them they
need to study or hit the books or
whatever it happens to be that even if
in the moment they're mad at you and you
feel bad and all those things like in
the end in the long term this is good
for them right like it's good to learn
to read it's good to learn to do math
and learn basic science and all those
things even if in the moment the kid is
upset with you and you'd much rather
just hand them an iPad and mentally
clock out but that doesn't help them
yeah I've often thought about that
phenomenon as um everyone could use a
little bit of an Asian parent maybe not
all the way maybe not the extreme that I
got but just a little bit just a little
encouragement a little bit of negative
motivation around you know oh you didn't
make it there like a little bit of Shame
not a lot of Shame not like traumatic
level of shame but a little bit like
just enough and a little bit goes a long
way on a lot of that stuff which is kind
of funny yeah I think yeah just like a
little bit of tiger parenting a little
bit of standards and expectations and
discipline and yeah you don't have to go
overboard with it but it's you know
having a little bit of that is much
better than just you know doing what
feels good and neglecting your
responsibilities to the kids for how are
they going to succeed in the world I
mean I had a lot of that kind of neglect
when I was a kid of I had to teach
myself how to read like once I learned
how important reading was I started to
do it but you know I there was this
story I tell in the book about how you
know I was in second grade I didn't know
how to read and the teacher asked me
what I wanted to be when I grew up and I
said I wanted to be a scientist and
she's like if you want to be a scientist
you have to learn to read and but I I
also thought like what else could I do
that doesn't require reading and then I
learned actually every job requires
reading essentially and more and more
now right like you have to have some
basic level of competence to do
basically any job in the modern economy
but at that time I I was just a kid kind
of lost and uh and gradually taught
myself but that was just you know a
bunch of adults abdicating their
responsibilities and that's not a great
thing to do we need we need to be
focusing more on how to how to help more
kids and you know even if not every kid
does go off to attend some expensive
Elite University that having basic
skills that's uh that's critical you
know it's important I think that that is
one of the scarier things that you know
I've come to realize over the course of
years even going to Stanford I didn't
really realize to what degree how much
of an advantage that was and then now of
course I'm like oh I got to work at a
Peter heel startup very early it was a
lot easier to raise money there's all
these biases about the elite sort of
helps its own and being able to join the
elite was a big deal and then of course
that feeds into the staus anxiety that
the elite feels for its own children and
then somewhere along the way that status
anxiety became toxic you know we somehow
disconnected the things that result in
good outcomes and we sort of like
covered it in ideology when did that
happen like I just don't I I feel like
that wasn't a thing when we were young
and when we were children and when we
were teenagers and then at some point in
the last 20 to 30 years there was sort
of a merging of specifically race-based
ideology and what really should be is a
system that serves the people and has
good outcomes and not only that the
recurring thing here is that if you
point out that there's a disconnect from
the outcomes you are attacked for
lacking the correct
ideology yeah I mean it's interesting
that timeline you mentioned the 20 to 30
years I mean
the like some version of meritocracy it
hasn't been perfect but it was kind of
it started in the 1960s with the SAT
where prior to the SAT and and sort of
widescale adoption of standardized
testing the elite schools it was
essentially you know this gentleman's
agreement that as long as you came from
the right wasp family or the right you
know whatever like you were a man of
character that you were able to go to
places like Harvard and Stanford and
Yale and uh and then yeah starting the
1960s it was more about sort of
merit-based uh admissions but I I do
wonder if once those people started to
have children I think meritocracy in
general and I know we don't have a
perfect meritocracy but we have as close
as any society has to like achieving it
and because it's uncomfortable and
because you know if you've made it in
that kind of system but you have kids
and you're worried about their future it
can be useful I think to adopt fuzzier
standards for admission and to expunge
the SAT and instead rely more on
recommendations and grades and
extracurriculars and if you have the
resources to send your kid to some
foreign country and have an adventure
that they can write about in their
personal statement so it does seem like
there's this kind of alliance between
you know very wealthy families and then
they're using the kind of they they're
they're sort of disguising their
self-interest in the language and the
ideology of our time around social
justice and identity politics and they
get to feel good about themselves while
simultaneously kind of giving their own
kids a leg up I mean I just saw this
article in New York Magazine that kids
from the top 1% of the income scale
applicants College applicants from the
top 1% of the income scale are 3 4% more
likely to be admitted to an elite
University than an average applicant
with the same test score that Advantage
is built in and it's only going to
magnify if the test is eliminated I mean
the test is imperfect and so on but
without it the disparities grow even
larger so yeah I think that the status
anxiety is interesting too I mean I I
saw that you know I had this perspective
you know I set foot on campus at Yale
after the foster homes and the military
and all you know this kind of unusual
background
and I remember thinking like wow I have
it made I can't believe I'm at Yale like
I can't believe I'm at college first of
all just like the fact that you know I'm
actually studying at a university but
then it's Yale no one goes to a place
like this and then ends up you know
unable to pay their bills or living on
the streets like I know that my future
by this point is as secure as it had
ever been And yet when I would speak
with the other students or with you know
recent graduates or you know the law
school student like you know basically
anyone with an affiliation professors
too honestly there was this underlying
feeling of like this constant you know
whatever Rat Race like running in that
hamster wheel of I'm not doing enough
you know there's that next Milestone
that next accomplishment that next thing
I need to do without any moment of just
sort of stepping back and saying wow I'm
like I'm here and I'm okay and I've you
know sort of entered these uh IV walls
and this special place but it wasn't
like that it was more so it was the most
status anxiety i' ever seen before and I
saw this study I've seen two studies
sense that on the same issue that people
who are at or near the top in terms of
socioeconomic status and wealth they
report the highest levels of Need for
status and wealth in other words these
studies and these researchers collected
objective measures of wealth and status
on the participants levels of income
education occupational Prestige and
found that people who are at or near the
top on those metrics were the most
likely to agree with statements like uh
it would please me to be in a position
of power over others I enjoy having
influence over those around me uh you
know I enjoy being recognized when I
walk into a room like those kinds of
things that it's actually people who are
doing very well objectively speaking who
also have this longing this this desire
for distinction and once I read those
studies I'm like yeah that that makes
sense there's something there that sort
of clicked into place for me what's the
path out of this are we getting better
is the discourse sort of turning you
know what's your feeling as of right now
I'm sure you're familiar and a lot of
your listeners you people have been
talking about a Vibe shift or we've
reached Peak woke or you know various
there variations of those ideas I think
that's probably right that where things
seem to slowly you know we always
overcorrect we can never just have a
nuanced and moderate response to
anything it seem seems like we always
have to swing back and forth and I'm
hoping we are sort of gradually coming
to our senses I hope we don't
overcorrect too far the other direction
but the very least kind of Step Back
From Where we've been over the last few
years but uh I think it takes it takes
conversations like this I think it takes
more you know and and I hope I
communicate this message at least in an
implicit way in my book that part of the
way we kind of overcome this
self-censorship this you know new wave
of political correctness or whatever you
want to call it that it just takes more
people with influence kind of speaking
out and being open and being honest and
conversations like this right of people
who have some kind of platform to just
kind of call out nonsense that actually
you know it's good for kids to learn
it's you know it's not it's not a great
idea to dismantle law enforcement or
what have you just very kind of Common
Sense ideas but there was a period in
2020 and 2021 where a lot of people
abdicated their responsibility to tell
the truth despite their wide platform
and large audience that they just kind
of went along and were afraid for
reputational reasons and on some level I
understood that I saw people lose their
jobs you know in Academia especially I
mean I was in the middle of my PhD
program and I was seeing a lot of the
behind the scenes people getting
pressured to resign or outright fired I
just think yeah could have this kind of
Return of I to say this term no bless
obl of just if you've been endowed with
certain advantages and privileges in
your life uh which I have undoubtedly
that uh yeah there's some duty to to
speak out a bit and to call out
misguided decision-making when you see
it that sounds like you know maybe one
of the themes of the book in some ways
that it's not just that the elites don't
see this side of society it's actually
that the
elites should see it and sort of
actually have a duty to steer Society to
create State capacity that creates good
outcomes the interesting thing is like
you know I'm still a moderate classic
liberal in that I actually really deeply
believe that Society does have a duty to
all its citizens like I mean it's I
don't think that that's that
revolutionary you know we want to a
government that actually works we want
schools that work we want life liberty
in the pursuit of Happy
and then that doesn't come for free and
we've got to fight for it yeah it's
funny like every this is something I've
only just now realized or you know sort
of adopted this view that you know I
used to think it was ridiculous like you
know again I've been in kind of higher
ed in these Elite universities the last
few years and I used to think it was
ridiculous all the debates about
academic freedom freedom of expression
you know the pursuit of Truth all of
this and like why is this a debate of
course we should have the these things
like how is this an argument in the
first place that we need to have but
gradually I'm realizing that it's not I
don't think it comes naturally you know
if you look at history freedom of speech
is like a very novel and strange
peculiar idea that it's only recently
taken hold in kind of the post
Enlightenment era and only in a select
few societies and it doesn't come
naturally I think and so it's like a tax
you have to pay to live in a free
society that you constantly have to
battle for it because there will always
be reasons to curtail people's freedoms
right and so you constantly have to take
some time aside and actually speak your
mind or whatever it is sign petition or
show support and solidarity for someone
who may be undergoing the slings and
arrows of some cancel culture mob or
whatever it is like I think of it as
like a social tax or something that uh
you just have to undergo it and and
realize yeah that um as absurd as some
of the arguments are they're actually
not atypical historically speaking that
that kind of We're the weird one for
believing in in all the you know the
life liberty and pursuit of happiness
and all that stuff like we're the kind
of atypical ones for supporting it in in
the scheme of things so that's kind of
how I've been thinking about it at least
in the last year or so and it's been
helping me to understand what's been
happening well we're going to keep
fighting Rob thank you so much for this
book everyone who's watching right now
go to Amazon your links in the
description to uh Rob's website I think
it's even a little bit better if you buy
it from buy it direct is that right or I
think yeah if you go to like the Simon
and chuster website or buy it from um
Bookshop or something or or you know
even better like a brick and morar
bookstore but uh you know however you
get your books as long as you get it
that sounds right so Rob thanks a lot
for coming on and sharing your wisdom
with us and uh we'll catch you on
Twitter thanks Gary this has been
[Music]
great
[Music]
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