The Difference Between Iconography and Idolatry | Alex O'Connor & Jonathan Pageau
Summary
TLDRThe speaker delves into the human fascination with creating icons versus idols, highlighting the difference where icons lead to higher participation, while idols capture attention for their own sake. They discuss how secular society is filled with idols, such as advertising, which can be seen as a form of idolatry, promising fulfillment but often failing to point towards a higher good. The conversation also touches on the potential dangers of excessive focus on things like sex and alcohol, which can become 'gods' in people's lives, overshadowing other important aspects and higher goods.
Takeaways
- 😇 The script discusses the human tendency to create icons and the distinction between icons and idols in religious and secular contexts.
- 🏛 In Christian theology, an icon is seen as a conduit to the transcendent, leading to higher participation, whereas an idol is self-contained and does not point to anything higher.
- 📺 The secular age is filled with idols that capture attention and demand worship, often serving as false promises of fulfillment, like advertising that suggests material possessions can satisfy desires.
- 🐄 The Old Testament story of the golden calf is used as an example of idolatry, where people created an idol to gather around and satisfy their immediate desires.
- 🍺 The script suggests that substances like alcohol and behaviors like excessive sexual focus can become idols when they capture one's attention to the extent that they overshadow other aspects of life.
- 🎤 Worship is described as the highest point of attention, something that does not fit into a higher good and becomes the ultimate focus of one's devotion.
- 🔍 The concept of 'worship' is explored, questioning what it means to worship something and whether it is possible or appropriate to worship objects or even people.
- 🌐 The speaker argues that certain things in the world are more likely to capture our full attention, potentially becoming idols, and that this can be dangerous if it prevents us from focusing on higher goods.
- 🍲 The script uses the example of cooking and family meals to illustrate how activities can be part of a larger, meaningful context that points towards higher goods, such as love and community.
- 🧬 An evolutionary perspective is introduced to discuss why humans might be predisposed to focus on certain pleasures, like sex, and how modern technology can exacerbate this tendency in ways that are not conducive to long-term well-being.
- 🌐 The importance of embedding pleasures within a framework of higher goods is emphasized, suggesting that this is necessary for maintaining the true pleasure and value of these experiences.
Q & A
What is the main topic of discussion in the provided transcript?
-The main topic of discussion is the concept of iconography and the distinction between icons and idols in the context of secular and religious societies.
Why do humans seem obsessed with making icons according to the transcript?
-Humans are described as being obsessed with making icons because they serve as a 'ladder of participation', pointing towards higher, transcendent values or ideals.
What is the difference between an icon and an idol as explained in the transcript?
-An icon is something that points to the transcendent and leads to higher participation, while an idol captures attention and keeps it within itself, not offering a path to a higher good.
How does the speaker relate the concept of idols to modern society?
-The speaker suggests that modern society is filled with idols, such as advertising, which asks for attention in a way that is purely subservient to the thing itself, often promising to fulfill desires without pointing to a higher good.
What is an example of an idol from the Old Testament mentioned in the transcript?
-The golden calf is an example of an idol from the Old Testament, which was made when Moses was away and the people needed something tangible to gather around.
What does the speaker mean by 'worship' in the context of the discussion?
-Worship is described as the highest point of one's attention, where there is no higher good. It is the point of attention that does not fit into a higher good and is solely focused on the object of worship itself.
Can a microphone be an idol according to the transcript?
-The transcript suggests that it would be difficult to worship a microphone because it is not something that naturally captures full attention in a way that could become an end in itself, unlike substances or behaviors that can become addictive.
What is the speaker's view on the role of technology in relation to idols?
-The speaker believes that technology can afford unlimited access to stimuli, such as sexual stimulus, which can overpower a person and become counterproductive to evolutionary goals, leading to issues like a decline in population and sexual dysfunction.
How does the speaker connect the concept of icons and idols to evolutionary biology?
-The speaker suggests that an obsession with the act and pleasure of sex, which can be seen as an idol, is counterproductive to evolutionary goals, which include the rearing of children and family relations ensuring the continuation of the species.
What is the speaker's view on the necessity of constraining pleasures like eating and sex into higher goods?
-The speaker argues that pleasures need to be encased and constrained into higher goods to maintain their value and prevent them from becoming overwhelming idols that can lead to a loss of pleasure and focus on something more meaningful.
How does the speaker describe the relationship between icons and the infinite Transcendent?
-The speaker describes icons as existing in one's life because they point to something higher, such as Christ in the case of St. John the Baptist, and ultimately to the infinite, invisible Transcendent.
Outlines
🗿 The Role of Icons and Idols in Society
This paragraph discusses the human tendency to create and venerate icons, which are seen as representations that point towards the transcendent, as opposed to idols, which are self-contained and do not offer a path to higher participation. The speaker differentiates between the two by explaining that icons, like religious icons, serve as a ladder to the divine, while idols capture attention and demand worship for their own sake, often seen in modern advertising and material possessions. The paragraph also touches on the dangers of idolatry, where objects or concepts become the center of one's life, overshadowing the pursuit of higher goods.
🔮 The Impact of Sexuality and Modern Technology on Evolutionary Goals
The speaker reflects on the overwhelming nature of sexuality during youth and how it can distort one's perception of the world, organizing experiences solely through a sexual lens. They contrast this with the evolutionary purpose of sex, which is not solely about pleasure but also about the nurturing and continuation of offspring. The paragraph further explores how modern technology provides an unprecedented access to sexual stimuli, which can be counterproductive to evolutionary goals. The speaker argues that pleasures like sex and food must be integrated into a broader context of higher goods to be truly fulfilling and not become enslaving idols that detract from one's pursuit of transcendent values.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Iconography
💡Secular Age
💡Icon vs. Idol
💡Transcendent
💡Idolatry
💡Participation
💡Golden Calf
💡Worship
💡Sexuality
💡Evolutionary Biology
💡Technology
Highlights
Human's obsession with making icons and the problem of idolatry in the scriptural tradition.
The difference between an icon and an idol in Christian theology.
Icons as a ladder of participation towards the Transcendent.
Idols as things that capture attention purely for themselves.
Advertising as a form of idolatry that tries to capture your desires.
The story of the golden calf as an example of idol worship in the Old Testament.
The concept of worship as the highest point of attention.
The difficulty of worshiping a mundane object like a microphone.
Alcohol and its potential to become a God for some people.
Sexuality as something good that needs to be ordered properly.
The evolutionary perspective on why people become obsessed with sex.
The importance of constraining pleasures like sex and food into higher goods.
How technology provides unlimited sexual stimulus that can overpower a person.
The negative consequences of excessive pornography consumption.
The need to embed pleasures into higher participation for them to remain good.
The danger of viewing the world solely through the lens of sex.
The challenge of directing worship towards the Transcendent instead of immediate pleasures.
Transcripts
well humans we were talking earlier
about iconography humans
seem obsessed with making icons they
love making icons and in fact in the old
scriptural tradition part of the problem
is that you know Moses pops up to the
mountain and comes back down and then
they've made a new icon it's like they
can't stop making icons all the
time that doesn't go away just because
we don't believe in God anymore uh you
know Society is secularizing and all
that what do you think are the icons of
the the secular age yeah well so there's
a way I think there's a it's especially
in Christian theology like what we'll do
is we will separate the difference
between icon and Idol and the difference
between an icon and Idol is that the
icon affords the Transcendent that is it
is pointed to it is of it is not
something which stops at itself but
rather leads up towards higher
participation so it's like if I
encounter an image of St John the St
John the Baptist well the image of St
John the Baptist only exists in my life
because he pointed to Christ and that
image of Christ only exists in my life
because he pointed to the infinite
invisible Transcendent and so that is
the way that icons function there
they're a kind of ladder of
participation the idea with of about
Idols is that in some ways they are
factitious they try to capture it all in
in themselves right they try to kind of
capture your attention and keep it
within its sphere they don't the idol
doesn't offer itself up to a higher
participation and so I would say that in
our world now we are surrounded with
Idols constantly that is we we are
constantly asked to give our attention
to things in ways which are purely
subservient to the to the thing itself
right advertising itself has a form of
idolatry to it because the the
the sometimes advertising can be
pointing to a higher good but most of
the time it's not most of the time it's
just like by this thing it will
accomplish all your desires I will give
you what you want if you get this thing
and so there's a sense in which if I can
just get that then I will get what I
want and that's the way in which you
know Idols are represented in uh in the
Old Testament if you look at that story
of the the the calf the the golden calf
for example right it's like Moses goes
up to get the Revelation people down
here were like well we need something
here we need something to kind of gather
us together they make this golden calf
and then they have an orgy basically
it's like the the the the the idol
affords you your desires so that's why
it's related to you know that's why it
can be related to anything that you give
your your attention to Too Much whether
it's you know porn whether it's alcohol
we all the classical things that that
can capture you and can can become your
God for all intents and purposes uh but
I mean would it be would it be right to
say that pornography or alcohol are
Idols I mean and and the thing that
people do with Idols is they worship
them and I suppose another thing that
I'm a bit unclear on is what it means to
worship something can I can I worship
this microphone uh can can I worship you
could drink you yeah it would be a
little ridiculous that is the worship is
the best way to understand worship is
you could say that it is the highest
point of your
attention right it is the it is the
point of attention in which there is
no there is no higher it doesn't fit
into a higher good so a good ex like
it's this is not woo woo like I I want
to be careful people to think like oh
here what's Jonathan talking about right
so it's like you're making food and
you're cutting the onions right you give
attention to that but that attention is
bound in the recipe that you're making
and the making of that recipe is bound
in the fact that you're going to sit
together as a family and
and that sitting together as a family
and eat is bound into the love of the
Family itself as a as something which
provides you know and then you can keep
scaling that up all the way up to the
highest good which is the the the
infinite Transcendent and
so there are some things in the world
that are more in danger of capturing our
attention fully and you know and it's
just by the nature of who we are it's
obviously a microphone it would be
difficult for you to worship a
microphone it' be harder but but alcohol
is the good it's fine but it it can
become a God and we know people for who
it does become a God and it does kind of
take over their lives and it's the same
with I wouldn't say pornography but I
would say sex let's say sexuality is
obviously something good and but it has
to be ordered in a certain way for it to
not become something that traps you and
kind of uh takes over your your
attention so that you can't think of
other things and you can't you can't uh
let's say put your attention into high
you know and you everybody knows it like
especially if you remember when you were
I mean I I'm older now but when I was 19
or whatever right it was really
difficult to think mean you think about
sex all the time it was just would take
over your your your your your field of
experience you would see the world
through through the lens of sex right
you would notice things and things the
world would kind of organize itself in
that in that way and that's that can be
dangerous because that's not actually
how the world works it's the world isn't
only made of sex it's made of all kinds
of other things have to fit together
towards towards higher Goods I mean
there's of course a sense in which it
makes sense as an atheist uh thinking
about evolutionary biology why people
just become obsessed with sex in this
way I mean it is the mechanism by which
things are are created it seems less
natural to me in other words to suppress
that in order to focus our attention on
what the religious will say is really
the creative power here this is the this
is the real force that we should be
focusing on why is it such a in other
words if worship is is supposed to be
directed towards the Transcendent and
and God then why is it such an unnatural
experience of so many people why is it
so difficult well it it'd be interesting
to even take your your the way that you
say sex I think that even using
evolutionary structures being obsessed
with the Act and the pleasure of sex is
actually counterproductive to The
evolutionary goals uh because the the
survival of this species is not bound up
only in the orgasm like there's a
there's a whole buffer around that which
has to do with the rearing of shelding
especially in terms of of human the how
humans uh deal with children there's a
whole structure around that has to do
with the rearing of children and the the
the famili relations just which will
assure the continuation of of your line
whatever however you want to think of it
and so the buffer around sexuality is
already a constraint on the pleasure of
sexuality uh you know one of the
problems that we have now you could say
is that technology in some ways affords
something which was impossible in an
ancient world right affords unlimited
access to insane amounts of of uh of
stimulus of sexual stimulus that in some
ways overpowers can overpower a person
in a way that is not conducive to
evolutionary questions and the proof of
that is that that a pornography leads to
decline in population to some extent it
leads to to erection problems it leads
to all these these these difficulties
that that will not bring about the
continuation and so the the the
religious is is the highest point of
understanding that the smallest good
that I feel whether it's the pleasure of
eating the pleasure of sex these
different Pleasures have to be encased
and have to be constrained into higher
goods and to some extent for you to even
have those right if you want sexuality
to be pleasure and not just a master
that that kind of overwhelms you it has
to be kind of it has to be bound into
these higher goods and the same with
food is if food is just if you just eat
food for pleasure at some point you will
no longer have pleasure eating food if
you only have sex for pleasure at some
point you will no longer have pleasure
in sex in order for the thing to be good
it has to be kind of embedded into these
higher participation yeah if it no
longer
points towards something more or or is
done in the in the in the in the with
the sort of attention focus towards
something else and something more
then I suppose like you were saying a
moment ago it becomes an idol rather
than an icon it it becomes an end rather
than a window through which to to look
at what really is beautiful and and true
um fascinating
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