Project 2025: The Guardian Reports | FFRF’s Ask An Atheist

Summary

In this episode of 'Ask an Atheist' by the Freedom From Religion Foundation, the panel discusses the radical implications of 'Project 2025,' a document from the Heritage Foundation that aims to reshape American policy. The conversation covers potential impacts on civil service, education, LGBTQ+ rights, reproductive freedoms, and immigration. Concerns are raised about the document's authoritarian leanings and its threat to the separation of church and state. The show also features insights from David Smith, the Washington bureau chief for The Guardian, before technical difficulties cut the interview short.

Takeaways

• 📜 The transcript discusses 'Project 2025', a plan by the Heritage Foundation that aims to reshape America with a conservative ideology.
• 🏆 The Heritage Foundation's plan is seen as a potential threat to democracy by some, including Representative Jared Huffman, who founded the 'Stop Project 2025 TR task force'.
• 🔍 The plan is extensive, covering a wide range of topics from education, LGBTQ+ rights, reproductive rights, racial justice, to immigration policies.
• 🗣️ The discussion involves concerns about the potential authoritarian shift if Project 2025's recommendations are implemented, centralizing power in the presidency.
• 👥 The show 'Ask an Atheist' features a conversation with David Smith, the Washington bureau chief for The Guardian, who has been tracking Project 2025.
• 🌐 The international implications of Project 2025 are hinted at but not fully explored due to technical difficulties with the guest, indicating a broader impact beyond U.S. borders.
• 🛑 There is an ongoing debate about the legality and constitutionality of Project 2025, especially concerning the separation of church and state.
• 📉 Project 2025 has faced criticism and some groups, like the Discovery Institute, have distanced themselves from it, suggesting internal divisions within conservative circles.
• 🤔 The conversation raises questions about the potential for violence among supporters of Project 2025, echoing concerns post-January 6th Capitol insurrection.
• 📊 The audience is asked to rate the potential impact of Project 2025 on a scale of 1 to 10, indicating widespread concern about its influence on the upcoming elections.
• 💡 The importance of education, organizing, and political engagement is emphasized as a countermeasure against the implementation of Project 2025's proposals.

Q & A

What is the main concern with Project 2025 as discussed in the transcript?

Project 2025 is a comprehensive plan from the Heritage Foundation that aims to reshape America with a conservative ideology. It is a concern because it could lead to a centralization of power in the presidency, potential dismissal of thousands of federal employees, and the replacement of these positions with politically vetted individuals, potentially leading to an authoritarian presidency.

What is the role of the Heritage Foundation in Project 2025?

The Heritage Foundation is the think tank behind Project 2025. It has developed a detailed plan that includes radical policy proposals aimed at reshaping the American government and society according to a conservative Christian nationalist vision.

How is Project 2025 related to the separation of church and state?

Project 2025 is seen as a threat to the separation of church and state due to its promotion of policies that favor Christian values over others, potentially leading to religious exemptions in various facets of American life, thus eroding the principle of state-church separation.

What impact could Project 2025 have on public education?

Project 2025 calls for the abolition of the Department of Education, which could have a significant impact on public schools, potentially leading to a lack of federal oversight and support for education policies.

How does Project 2025 address LGBTQ+ rights?

Project 2025 is not sympathetic to LGBTQ+ rights and includes measures that could roll back the rights of this community, reflecting a conservative Christian ideology that does not support LGBTQ+ lifestyles or rights.

What are the implications of Project 2025 for reproductive freedom?

Project 2025 could further restrict reproductive freedom, particularly abortion rights, following the overturning of Roe v. Wade, potentially impacting millions of women who may lose access to safe and legal abortion services.

How does Project 2025 plan to address immigration?

Project 2025 includes strict immigration policies that echo those of former President Trump, such as deporting undocumented immigrants, which could affect millions of people and significantly alter the demographic and social fabric of the United States.

What is the significance of the 'Schedule F' mentioned in the transcript?

Schedule F is a proposal within Project 2025 that would allow the president to hire and fire civil servants at will, potentially leading to the politicization of the civil service and undermining its independence and nonpartisanship.

What is the role of the 'Stop Project 2025 TR Task Force' founded by Jared Huffman?

The 'Stop Project 2025 TR Task Force' is a congressional body aimed at countering the proposals of Project 2025. It is intended to raise awareness about the potential negative impacts of Project 2025 and to work towards preventing its implementation.

How does the transcript suggest that Project 2025 could impact climate activities?

The transcript implies that Project 2025 includes proposals to defund climate activities, which could have both short-term and long-term impacts on the United States' ability to address climate change and could potentially exacerbate environmental issues.

What is the potential international view of Project 2025 as hinted in the transcript?

While the transcript does not provide a detailed international perspective, it suggests that Project 2025 could lead to a more isolationist United States, impacting global relations, potentially reducing funding for international programs like USAID, and affecting the country's stance on religious freedom abroad.

Outlines

00:00

🔹 MSNBC Anchors' Reactions to Project 2025

The video script opens with a discussion on the perceived success of a conservative side, which is causing distress among MSNBC anchors. It introduces the 'American Revolution' concept and sets the stage for a discussion on 'Project 2025,' a plan by the Heritage Foundation. The speaker, Ryan Jane, introduces the show 'Ask an Atheist' and its co-hosts, including Mark Dan from the Freedom From Religion Foundation (ffrf), and guest David Smith from The Guardian. The conversation hints at the radical nature of Project 2025 and its potential to reshape America's political landscape.

05:04

📚 Project 2025: A Conservative Playbook

This paragraph delves into the specifics of Project 2025, a comprehensive plan from the Heritage Foundation aimed at centralizing power in the presidency and dismantling the administrative state. It discusses the potential impacts on federal employees, education, and the broader structure of American democracy. David Smith, the guest, elaborates on how the plan could fundamentally alter the government, including dismissing thousands of employees and replacing them with politically vetted individuals loyal to Donald Trump.

10:04

🏛️ The Threat to American Democracy and Daily Life

The discussion continues with the potential daily life implications of Project 2025, ranging from climate policy to LGBTQ rights and abortion rights. It mentions the plan's alignment with Trump's policies on immigration and the economy, suggesting increased inflation and other economic impacts. The paragraph also highlights the bipartisan nature of ffrf and its commitment to state-church separation, setting up a contrast with the Christian nationalist themes of Project 2025.

15:05

🌐 International Perspective on Project 2025

Although the main focus has been on domestic issues, this part of the script invites discussion on the international view of Project 2025. It suggests that the plan could affect U.S. foreign policy, potentially leading to an isolationist stance. The conversation is cut short due to technical difficulties with the guest, David, but it implies that there would be further exploration of how Project 2025 might impact global relations and the perception of the U.S. abroad.

20:05

🛡️ Congressional Response to Project 2025

The script outlines the response from Congress, particularly from Representative Jared Huffman and the 'Stop Project 2025 TR Task Force.' It discusses the efforts to raise awareness about the plan's potential impact and to counteract its influence. The paragraph also mentions the role of the Congressional Freethought Caucus and its early recognition of the threat posed by Project 2025.

25:06

🗳️ Political and Public Reaction to Project 2025

This section explores the reaction to Project 2025 from both the public and political figures. It highlights the polarizing nature of the plan and how it has captured the attention of various groups, including those distancing themselves from its extreme positions. The script also touches on the potential for rivalry among conservative groups and the impact of negative press on Project 2025.

30:08

🌟 The Role of the Heritage Foundation and Project 2025

The paragraph examines the role of the Heritage Foundation in promoting Project 2025 and the potential legal and political implications for the organization. It raises questions about the Foundation's nonpartisan status and its involvement in political activities, suggesting that there may be consequences for its actions. The discussion also considers the broader issue of extremist groups and the challenges of combating their influence.

35:10

🚨 Concerns of Escalation to Violence

The script addresses the potential for violence among supporters of Project 2025, referencing past political violence and the desire to avoid such outcomes. It emphasizes the importance of dialogue and the need to steer clear of extremism, while acknowledging the persistence of fringe elements that may be inclined towards violent action.

40:11

🛑 Legal Limitations and the First Amendment

This part of the script considers the legal limitations on the Heritage Foundation and its allies, particularly in relation to the First Amendment and the prohibition of establishing a state religion. It discusses the potential for extreme measures, such as criminalizing non-Christian worship, and the safeguards in place to prevent such violations of religious freedom.

📉 The Impact of Project 2025 on the 2024 Election

The final paragraph summarizes audience perceptions of the impact of Project 2025 on the upcoming election, with many viewers rating the potential impact as significant. The script concludes with a reflection on the importance of discussing such issues and the role of the Freedom From Religion Foundation in addressing them.

Keywords

💡MSNBC

MSNBC is an American news cable and satellite television network that provides coverage of breaking news, political analysis, and other current events. In the script, MSNBC is mentioned as an example of a media outlet where anchors are said to be 'losing their minds daily,' presumably due to the perceived success of the political 'side' being discussed, which can be interpreted as a commentary on media reactions to political developments.

💡American Revolution

The term 'American Revolution' typically refers to the late 18th-century revolution by which the United States achieved independence from Great Britain. In the context of the script, it is used metaphorically to describe a significant political shift or movement, suggesting that the speaker believes the current political climate is undergoing a transformation akin to a revolution, which they hope will remain 'bloodless' if not resisted.

💡Heritage Foundation

The Heritage Foundation is a conservative think tank in the United States. The script discusses the Foundation's role in developing 'Project 2025,' described as a comprehensive plan to reshape America's policies and governance. The Heritage Foundation is central to the video's theme as it is portrayed as a major force behind the proposed changes.

💡Project 2025

Project 2025 is a document produced by the Heritage Foundation that outlines a conservative policy agenda for the United States. The script suggests that this project is a radical plan to centralize power in the presidency and reshape the administrative state, with potential far-reaching implications for American democracy and daily life.

💡Christian Nationalism

Christian nationalism is an ideology that merges conservative Christian beliefs with American nationalism. The script implies that Project 2025 has elements of Christian nationalism, suggesting that it may promote policies that favor Christian values and traditions over other religious or secular perspectives.

💡Separation of Church and State

The principle of separation of church and state refers to the distance in the relationship between organized religion and the nation-state. In the script, there is concern that Project 2025 could erode this principle by granting religious exemptions in various facets of American life, thus blurring the lines between religion and government.

💡Stop Project 2025 TR Task Force

The 'Stop Project 2025 TR Task Force' is a group founded by California Representative Jared Huffman, aimed at countering the Heritage Foundation's Project 2025. The task force is mentioned in the script as an active political force opposing the changes proposed by Project 2025, indicating a legislative response to the perceived threat.

💡State-Church Separation

State-Church separation is a concept that involves the distinction and independence of state governance from religious influence. The script discusses how Project 2025 could impact this principle, with implications that the project may advocate for policies that favor the intertwining of religious beliefs with state matters.

💡Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF)

The Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) is a non-profit organization that advocates for the separation of church and state, as well as secularism. In the script, FFRF is the host of the 'Ask an Atheist' show, and its representatives discuss the implications of Project 2025 on secular values and the potential threats to religious freedom.

💡Executive Order

An executive order is a directive issued by the President of the United States that manages operations of the federal government. The script suggests that under Project 2025, a future conservative administration might issue executive orders that could grant broad religious exemptions, indicating a significant shift in policy-making authority towards religious interests.

💡Supreme Court

The Supreme Court of the United States is the highest court in the federal judiciary and has the power to interpret the Constitution and federal laws. The script raises concerns about the court's potential role in upholding or challenging the policies of Project 2025, especially given the current ideological composition of the court, which may lean towards conservative interpretations.

Highlights

MSNBC anchors' reactions to the perceived winning of the conservative side in the American political landscape.

Introduction of 'Project 2025', a comprehensive plan from the Heritage Foundation to reshape America's policies.

Discussion on the potential impact of 'Project 2025' on the federal government and democracy in the United States.

Interview with David Smith, Washington bureau chief at The Guardian, who has been closely tracking 'Project 2025'.

Concerns about the plan to centralize power in the presidency and the potential for authoritarian rule.

Potential dismissal of thousands of federal employees and their replacement with politically vetted individuals.

The plan's proposal to abolish the Department of Education and other significant policy changes.

The threat to LGBTQ+ rights, reproductive rights, and racial justice as outlined in 'Project 2025'.

The potential for increased inflation and economic impacts due to the plan's tough stance on China.

The role of the 'Stop Project 2025 TR Task Force' founded by California Representative Jared Huffman.

The Heritage Foundation's promotion of 'Project 2025' and its alignment with conservative ideologies.

The potential for 'Project 2025' to erode the separation of church and state through religious exemptions.

The possibility of legal battles between states and the federal government over the implementation of 'Project 2025'.

The role of the Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) as a nonpartisan organization in addressing 'Project 2025'.

The audience's engagement through questions and the scale of impact 'Project 2025' might have on the election.

The potential for 'Project 2025' to influence public policy through a coalition of conservative groups.

The response to 'Project 2025' from the public and political figures, including the formation of opposition groups.

The importance of education and awareness in combating the influence of 'Project 2025'.

Strategies for preventing similar projects from emerging in the future, including political and legal approaches.

Transcripts

reason that so many anchors on MSNBC for

example are losing their minds daily is

because our side is winning and so I

come full circle in this response and

just want to encourage you with some

substance that we are in the process of

the American Revolution which will

remain bloodless if the left allows it

to

be hello and welcome to ffrf's ask an

atheist I'm Ryan Jane senior policy

council at the freedom from religion

Foundation today we're talking about the

threat project 2025 poses that alarming

clip you just saw was of Kevin Roberts

head of the Heritage Foundation which is

one of the major groups behind project

2025 a 900 plus page Chris nationalist

Playbook to reshape America we'll be

talking about the presidential

transition project with the Washington

bureau chief at the guardian who's been

tracking this story closely but first I

want to introduce my co-host today ffrf

director of governmental Affairs Mark

Dan coming to us from Washington DC hey

Mark hey Ryan great to be here with you

as always we want to hear your questions

so put your thoughts and questions in

the comments section or email to ask an

atheist at ffrf.org quick little note

ffrf is a 501c3 nonpartisan organization

so we do not and cannot take sides in

partisan elections and don't necessarily

endorse any such views that might be

expressed here today now our guest is

David Smith the Washington bureau chief

for the guardian from 2009 to 2015 David

was a correspondent for the guardian in

Johannesburg South Africa David has

written numerous articles on Project

2025 and the US elections you can find

David on Twitter Smith iname or at

theegg guardian.com welcome to the show

David thanks great to be

here and before we get into our

discussion with David we want to hear

from you with our audience question so

for today on a scale of 1 to 10 how much

of an impact do you think project 2025

will play in the election and why 10 is

a huge impact and one is no impact at

all so David uh let's talk a little bit

about your work and in your recent

article at the guardian you quoted

California representative Jared Huffman

who's the founder of the stop project

2025 TR task force and you call uh who

called project 2025 a potential wrecking

ball to the federal government can you

elaborate on how this plan could

fundamentally alter the structure of

American

democracy yes project 202 this um more

than 9900 page document from the

Heritage Foundation think tank is really

a very radical sweeping plan um that

would centralize power in the presidency

and uh pursue what Steve Bannon always

called um the dismantling of the

administrative States um among other

things it would uh potentially lead to

the dismissal of tens of thousands of

federal government employees and allow

them to be replaced by uh what

effectively

political uh employees who um would uh

be veryy much vetted to ensure that they

were loyal to uh to Donald Trump um it

would uh abolish the department for

education for example um and you know it

would really be a step towards uh what

many fear is an authoritarian um

presidency um which you we've heard

enough from Donald Trump to suspect he

would love that and exploit it to the PO

and here where he would just be a

dictator on day one so if you can just

tell us like how would the project 2025

impact my daily life I wake up in the

morning what's changed to for me

personally yeah and you mentioned jar

Huffman um and that stock project 2

25 Congressional body um we're going to

hold hearings I think they're trying to

really Hammer this message home about

how it would uh affect people's uh daily

lives and uh really trying to tie Donald

Trump to project 2025 um it's everything

from um uh climate they certainly want

to defund a lot of climate activities so

that would impact us in a short and long

term uh

lgbtq rights uh would be rolled back um

certainly abortion rights would uh would

suffer yet another blow uh following the

fall of uh row versus Wade um and and so

again as we've already seen you know

millions of women potentially Millions

more women would be um affected by that

um there's some very tough measures

planned on

immigration again echoing Trump's

policies of uh deporting undocumented

immigrants so again thousands not

millions of people will be affected by

that um and you know the the plans for

the economy taking a tough line on on

China uh I think um there would be a

danger of increased inflation and and

other ways in which that would uh impact

people in their their daily

lives thank you David so that's I mean

it's uh as you're saying this touches on

uh just Myriad of different issues uh

and anyone who's a member of ffrf would

know that this uh a lot of the things

you just mentioned are adjacent to State

Church separation so we're going to get

into some of the more specific State

Church implications of project 2025 but

uh first we have a clip from the

Heritage Foundation promoting project

2025 from their perspective let's take a

look and then we'd like to hear your

thoughts David on inauguration day the

four years ahead seems like an eternity

it's not because the left is engineered

our government and institutions to

reject conservative ideology the 2025

presidential transition project brings

together over 60 conservative

organizations to ensure the policy and

Personnel are in place on January 20th

2025 using four pillars we are laying

the foundation for the next president to

end Washington's bureaucracy and restore

American

Prosperity well um we've been here

before um The Heritage Foundation had a

a mandate for leadership in the early

1980s that was very influential on the

uh Ronald Reagan presidency and um and

now I think we see potentially history

repeating itself but on uh on steroids I

mean this document is extremely radical

it's a culmination really of uh the

Trump era and uh by one estimate about

140 Trump Administration officials have

uh have worked on it despite his

attempts to distance himself and and

certainly many of his critics say that

uh Christian nationalism is uh really at

the at the heart of this document um

it's uh very sort of old fashion

Christian conservative language about uh

the importance of the the nuclear family

um family life it's got those Echo that

make America great again um it's

certainly not a document sympathetic to

lgbtq rights um supposes in addition you

defunding diversity inclusion programs

um you the whole thing is really a uh a

throwback and um it's certainly

supported by many of those Republicans

who you've heard questioning the

separation between church and

state um you know those those who argue

um you know we're we're very we don't

want the state influencing the church

but uh we're very happy for the church

to influence the state right and one of

the things that we see coming out of

project 2025 is that pretty much on the

first day of a future extraordinarily

conservative Administration would issue

an executive order that would Grant

pretty much a religious exemption to

almost every facet in American life

whether it's in healthcare or

accommodations you name it it's going to

project 2025 would allow that to happen

and give the muscle and the full force

of the federal government uh to enforce

that type of decision making eroding the

separation of church and state so do you

see something Sim uh similar and then

broadly what do you think could be the

consequ uh consequences for the

separation of state and

church well I think um one interesting

aspect of this is that we're already

seeing project

2025 enacted in certain red States um

whether it's uh the Ten Commandments

been put up in classrooms in Louisiana

or extremely strict abortion bans in

Texas and elsewhere you know at state

level there a laboratory

for project 225 these religious

exemptions and um yeah I'm I'm sure um

that would continue and and you would

potentially have some uh major legal

battles uh between a state such as

California for example and and the

federal government and that might might

go all the way to the Supreme Court and

of course we we know which way the

Supreme Court is leaning these days with

that very um right-wing majority but uh

but yeah I think I think this document

does um you know set up a final victory

for the Christian rights um and um know

sadly those people who don't want to

make a wedding cake for a G couple or

don't want to preside over a gay

couple's wedding would be the would be

in the ascendancy and and then you uh

you ask those worrying questions about

um could the government could the

Supreme Court even pursue the um the

rights of the person same couples to

marry at all which you know at one point

seemed Unthinkable but then of course

the the overturning of Ro versus Wade

also seemed Unthinkable a long time so

and just in terms so basically if you

see what's happening in Texas and you're

moving that's the sneak preview and in

British speak how bad is worrying is

that a 10 alarm or is that a one

alarm uh you know the British are famous

for their understatements so you should

everything I say and and dial it up by

at least 10 points I I I would say you

know when I say concerned it means that

you should

panic and um I would also add you know

part of what you're talking about it it

touches it's hard because it touches on

so many different issues project 2025 is

such just a a huge document it's hard to

wrap your head around it um but there's

also the this central theme right that

in the in Project 2 they have a huge

Coalition of groups that they want to be

influencing public policy and uh they

want to be consolidating power in the

executive in the Oval Office and so what

I always come back to is even if

something is not explicitly in Project

2025 if it's not written out in there

there are groups that ffrf goes to

battle with all the time like you know

first Liberty Institute that are

involved with this project and so these

are the decision makers who they are

putting at the levers of power and then

they're consolidating power in them so

it's it's scary to think uh what

direction they might take it in because

they can really kind of do whatever they

want if they if they get everything

that's in

here uh I'm I'm curious um can I just

add to

that a few weeks ago I interviewed um

Steve Bannon former white house chief

strategist you longtime advisor Donald

Trump you know went to his basement

office on Capital Hill which is

alarmingly close to the Supreme Court

and he had a copy of project 2025 there

and at one point he uh he pointed to it

and said you know that's the Bible and

it uh reminded me that the likes of

Steve Bon his ideas his populist

nationalist ideas would be empowered by

that along as you say with all these um

satellite groups uh on the other hand if

you want um uh purchas draws or have a m

of constellation I I do think uh we've

seen playing out in recent weeks um

there is some rivalry between these

groups you know I mean um there was a a

trump Legacy Think Tank called the

American the America First policy

Institute um and they have some

different ideas and um I can imagine

they they have some disputes on Rival

with project 2025 and and then and then

other groups as well so um yeah this uh

everything you say is true but there's

there's also a sliver of possibility

here that some of these groups might

might be at each other's throats sure

that's really interesting and it uh it

makes sense we've seen especially I

think since there's been such negative

press of project 2020 kind and kind of

shining sunlight on it there are some

groups that really want to distance

themselves uh from it um and I'm I'm

wondering if you can speak more to what

the response has been to project 2025 uh

both from the public and also from

political

figures yeah isn't it always interesting

how

some ideas and proposals and

Brands Catch Fire and others fly beneath

a radar I think there's just something

about the name project 2025 the group

behind it the Heritage Foundation Now 50

years old um that uh captured the

imagination on on both sides of the

aisle so you know Republicans were very

happy to

we may have lost David for a minute I

think we'll just give him a a moment to

reconnect right and I think what's also

really interesting is what he's uh what

David's saying in terms of Steve Bannon

they're getting excited about this

they're seeing how this is moving so I

think it's really interesting to see how

someone like Steve Bannon who I mean for

is fringe and then every year seems to

get closer and closer to mainstream very

conservative thinking

that the definitely folks who think like

him uh in a future right-wing

Administration are going to have really

unbridled control seems to be my takea

away from a lot of this discussion

absolutely and it's it's seeing you know

as David was hinting at it's it's a lot

of groups that historically have not

always been Allied on everything so when

you get that many people into a room

they can't possibly all agree on

everything uh so for instance I know

recently the uh The Discovery Institute

this uh kind of Fringe group that tries

to push uh intelligent design like the

new branded creationism uh they recently

left the project 2025 Coalition they say

they don't want to be associated with it

anymore which I think is is kind of

hilarious you know when you are at a

point where the creationists are no

longer wanting to be associated with you

you know your reputation is is really

suffering so on a for on a scream scale

so it's like on the right side

so project 2025 is further to the

extreme right than creationism in a

sense yep it's it's too

hostile okay um I know we were talking

in the warm-up to the show of um things

that surprised you that's my surprise of

the day there you go uh Mark can you

maybe share some of your thoughts in DC

and being closely connected to our

Congressional allies um on some of the

stuff going on with uh representative

Huffman's stop 2025 task Force yeah I

think that's a really good response that

you're seeing coming from representative

Huffman who many of our viewers know is

the co-chair of the Congressional free

thought caucus and I think it's a really

strong personal point of Pride that the

free thought caucus was on this before

almost any other faction in or caucus or

group in Congress so nice job

freethinkers um for seeing this and nice

job for the caucus that this is

something we saw early and saw and is

giving a lot of attention to and then

you're also seeing that it definitely

had a lot of other folks within the

Democratic caucus um going into the

administration that you've seen you've

seen the reaction from campaigns I think

it's going to be really interesting to

see um what it comes out and what is the

next step and sort of one of the things

that I think is going to be interesting

is that you've actually seen a pretty

good response from the Democratic caucus

where whether it's the stop the com

stock act or it's voting rights

legislation or a few other areas that

definitely go up against um project 2025

so I think with representative Huffman

you are seeing this really good wall

that can be built um through uh

legislation through activities uh to

make sure this doesn't happen again

that's great I yeah I love seeing the um

the secular allies we've seen taking the

lead so uh David is is rejoined uh

welcome back and uh we were just

discussing representative Huffman's uh

stop 2025 task force uh what can you

share what are some of your perceptions

of of that task

force yeah and um I first inter Huffman

doing an article about him the first

non-believer Congress I I described

itself as as an A but uh certainly free

thinker and an guy

this task force I think um goes to uh

how

project like so many things in Poli

bothans but the sort of opposite

reaction on the Democratic side you know

rather than policy proposals or you

fuzzy warnings of what Donald Trump will

do perod down in black and white it's a

literal document that you can dissect

analyze you that's a very tool for um

Democrats to sh a stark warning to to

their voters on on what to expect so you

know

Huff a lot of civil rights groups

involved in this a lot of uh of Congress

including Jamie rasy always very

impressive they're going to hold a

series of mock hearings um set out given

a public hearing as what the implication

of the project 2025 would be perhaps

unsurprisingly

we've heard a little bit L that in the

last few weeks with uh assassination

Donald Trump and a switch of Democratic

candidate little bit hard to get air

time this but I'm I'm sure it will come

back and you know I think sensing that

to go back to your earli

question partly why you are seeing

Donald Trump especially try to dist from

Project 2025

knows that some of its contents are very

extreme they give they give Democrats a

weapon especi the Crackdown of abortion

rights you know I think his sense tells

it obviously big for Republicans trying

to be vague on that um and you know

other things in there as

well a little too star when he would

prefer to be B um last week at the

Republican

mention and I think yeah I think that's

a really important key is in terms of

what Huffman and the Congressional free

thought caucus and other members of

Congress are planning on doing whether

it's the hear the um Shadow hearings

those can have a light War floor

speeches or things like that so I think

that and coming from the guardian I

think that is a pretty credible source

of where you can see this group going uh

hopefully in the near future

so could we could we do a quick uh

rundown David you mentioned a bunch of

the different areas that are um impacted

directly in Project

2025 uh one that you you mentioned uh is

the uh world of civil service when we

call schedule F and I know John Oliver

did a really nice breakdown of uh some

of the implications of that um Public

Schools the so the uh project 2025 calls

for shutting down the Department of

Education entirely so massive impact on

public Public Schools you mentioned

reproductive Freedom lgbtq plus rights

uh racial Justice immigration those are

some of the things that you've uh you've

mentioned uh and so but these are all

concerns that are kind of um domestic so

I wonder with your International

experience uh could people are talking a

lot about these domestic issues I'm

wondering if you can uh give some uh

some thoughts on what the uh

International view of project 20225

might be and how it might affect people

beyond the borders of the United

States I

think all right David I'm so sorry we're

you're breaking up it's it's the audio

is not coming through right so I I I

think we're going to have to end it

there I'm so so sorry but um

uh okay yeah uh so uh Mark we can uh

hopefully fill in some of the the gaps

there um appreciate it having David on

the show for as long as we we could

apologies for technical difficulties um

we will fill people in uh with David's

thoughts because I was uh I'm sad I was

really looking forward because you know

as we mentioned David has uh all this

International experience and really want

to hear his his thoughts on that topic

so we will uh we will return to that at

some uh some later Point yeah and I

think uh so it just gives us a good

reason to have David back on the show

but just for folks of in terms of uh the

guardian his point of view is obviously

what are the impacts uh going on how

could project 2025 impact whether us

steps back um and becomes more

isolationist whether it it definitely is

going to be an impact on State

Department funding

usaid um maintaining um religious

freedom abroad and so I think those are

going to be some interesting uh

questions that they have on that and

then quite frankly I think he uh

hopefully at next appearance can talk a

little bit about is Project 2025 just a

copy and paste job that you're seeing

coming out of Russia or Hungary so

there's a lot to talk about or whether

it's with the UK elections um and the

rise of the reform UK party which is

much more of a right-wing party that

we've seen more than the Tories uh

itself so hopefully we can talk with

David really soon about a lot of this so

stay tuned for an encore presentation

absolutely I so yeah I look forward to

that discussion and uh hearing David's

take on all of that we're going to skip

ahead to audience questions because we

are getting a bunch of them so um

apologies if these are you know directed

uh to David specifically but Mark and I

will do our our very best uh so the um

the first question is are there ways

that project 2025 can be stopped if some

of these proposals were to be put into

motion um so yeah go ahead Mark yeah I

think the best thing to do is make sure

there not a uh extraordinarily

right-wing um presidency uh that goes

into place the next big question would

be uh do uh is there a right-wing

control of the Senate if that doesn't

happen uh where the Democrats have more

are hold on to the Senate that means

they can block appointments that means

they can uh slow down whether it's

judicial appointments and be a block on

that a big area and then or even uh

Supreme Court Justices that come up but

the big threat that's out there is how

friendly are the courts going to be to

project 2025 and their ideas we saw in

Trump versus the United States that

looks like the Supreme Court's going to

be very accommodating so the best thing

to do would be make sure this doesn't

happen and also look uh for places uh

where you can influence that yeah I mean

that's all that all sounds right to me

of course groups like ffrf are going to

to be out there fighting every inch of

this if it were to um to come into

existence another Focus that we would be

that we would take would be on to States

and state courts so you know Mark you

were talking about kind of political

Solutions and how uh it's it it's

potentially very hard to settle these

things in courts especially if there if

the federal Judiciary has been packed

with people who support these ideas

you're not going to get them to overturn

them uh but state courts are a separate

Avenue and remember you know state

courts handle the majority of court

cases in this country so we've seen a a

refocus on state legislatures

politically and also on state courts uh

State Supreme Courts and and lower

courts who can potentially help to uh to

mediate some of the damage that that

these policies would do if they were

implemented so great question um here's

another question about kind of a feeling

of Doom and Gloom so Mark I think you

You' you're very optimistic I think

you're a good person to answer this so

they're saying they're asking in some of

the online communities I've seen

discussing uh project 2025 there's been

a heavy emphasis on immigrating to a

different country to escape it and I

remember this you know similar

discussion in 2016 people were very

afraid and saying I got to get my

passport in order get ready to get out

of here um do you have a response or

suggestion to people who feel that level

of hopelessness in this situation I

think in terms of let's look deeper

about what's happening in the election

itself and I think Wisconsin is a really

good example of good good currents that

you're that you're seeing so Wisconsin

itself okay swing state competitive

Senate seed but you and also you've got

in Congressional District 3 you've got a

competitive house race but even further

down the surface is that you've got all

of these uh new maps that are fair and

you're seeing areas in Wisconsin that

haven't seen a really competitive

campaign so that's more opportunities to

get involved with um and reach out to

people as well plus quite frankly I mean

you're going to have an even Steven

chance that there's not going to be

anyone putting their thumb on the scale

uh in counting the ballots in Wisconsin

so I think I would say to folks um don't

agonize as nany po would say don't

agonize organize and especially think

about areas down ballot where you can

help and you can knock on doors you can

do what you think is best um you can

engage in a lot of those campaigns and

quite frankly they would love to have

your support So Think down ballot

awesome love that um now I can take a

crack at answering this next one uh

which is well many people are against

2025 project 2025 there are some people

who don't seem to be particularly

bothered by it uh why do you think that

is and what could I say to someone who

falls into that category so my thought

would be um you know with with with with

a a thing like project 2025 that touches

so many different areas uh if this is

somebody who you know you know whoever

this person is I would kind of try to

enter their mind a little bit and figure

out what issues do they care about

because chances are very good if they

learn what is in Project 2025 in more

detail about something that they're

passionate about they're going to change

their mind about it so I think it's

probably a matter this is a spot where

you need education so you have to kind

of figure out do they care about public

schools do they have friends who are in

the lgbtq communities do they know any

women who might be impacted by the

Reproductive Rights aspects you know so

finding what is some area that they may

not be locked up with these really

extremist views uh across the board and

just say hey do you know if you and

especially if you can give them a page

site right this is the lawyer and me

coming out but if you can say hey turn

to page you know 453 and look what it

says about this topic and uh it's it's

going to be hard for them to um to just

say oh no I don't think that's a big

deal when it's right there in front of

them yeah and I think a a big part about

it is telling When anybody um says well

how does this matter to you personally

tell a good story is where I always go

so sometimes with project 2025 there's

the idea in it which is deeply rooted to

fire a whole chunk of civil Ser

nonpartisan hardworking Civil Service

servants who make sure your water is

clean and the air is clean and going

from there so do you really want someone

who's a political appointee trying to

figure out and whether it's a Democrat

or Republican trying to figure out is

your water clean and think about that

next time you open the tap and think do

you really want someone whose best

qualification is loyalty to the

president to figure out if your drinking

water's clean and that's where I always

go is just how tell a personal story of

how this could impact you yeah

absolutely I totally agree now I have

thoughts on this next question too this

is a great question someone who's

thinking toward the future says um

should project 2025 end up being

defeated are there ways to prevent a

project 2029 from emerging four years

later and U my initial thought on that

is you know the you can see the effect

that sunlight has had on this project

where clearly this document was written

without the intent of it ever becoming

national news and when people started

digging into it and sharing it and

discussing it in more detail that's when

the rats started to flee the ship right

so I think that's the uh that that's the

solution is there's always going to be

groups out there that are proposing

horrible ideas uh and the the answer to

that is just to beat them with uh

education sunlight and and just

popularity just make it so that it is a

an indefensible position and it is

political cryptonite where right where

people who are running for office don't

want to touch this because they know

it's deeply unpopular and I think one of

the things that recently people have uh

have gotten around popularity is that

this is what you said it's a very

unpopular agenda so but how is it

getting a lot of legs is through the

courts and one of the things ffrf has

been very much for is uh basically to

expand the Supreme Court um with the

Judiciary Act uh that was proposed by

Congressional freethought caucus member

Hank Johnson from Georgia and also

seconded by uh Jamie Rasin from Maryland

who's a congressional freeth thought

cockus co-chair so you've got that and

yeah there's a very good chance they're

couldn't there if uh if this doesn't

work out there's going to be more

iterations so the best way to say that

is for the course to start laying down

um their markers that no Trump V uh us

was very incorrect any type of attempts

for um to have an interial presidency is

not in the Constitution so you're going

to need to get new Supreme Court rulings

to really that's the best protection you

got against project 2025 yeah now we

have another uh question that is on a

related uh concept where they're saying

can something be done about the herit

the Heritage Foundation itself as a

whole or is this more of a whack-a-mole

situation where other groups will pop up

with the same goals and uh I think the

short answer to that is that it is going

to be a bit of a whack and- mole game as

I said there are always going to be

extremist groups that propose these

really bad ideas um I think there's a

serious chance that Heritage Foundation

seems to have seems to be getting itself

into hot water here because because you

know we are discussing these policy

ideas as 501c3 uh may do but the

Heritage Foundation if you look at how

they've been promoting this issue um

they I mean for example they sponsored

one of the major political parties

conventions recently they so they seem

to be really crossing the line of trying

to stay nonpartisan just talking about

policies so I mean maybe there will be

uh um a consequence to that but if there

is yeah there there will be another

group that comes and just presents this

so unfortunately yeah this fight is is

not going away if it's not the Heritage

Foundation uh yes it will be someone

else and I mean I think there's just

kind of uh this is what we talk about a

lot there is almost an huge amount of

right-wing money that's floating around

and it's going to want to find a home in

some place so the best thing you can do

reup your membership to ffrf and I think

on a good end uh that's one of the best

things you can do uh for that is help us

get the tools to uh go up against them

we do a really nice job but if we had

just a little bit more um I think we can

start really Shifting the scales a

little bit I mean we get outspent um

them by a fair amount but if we could

just get a little closer that would make

a huge difference I mean just imagine if

we had more lobbyists more lawyers we

could do more on the ground I mean I

think so the best investment you can

have

ffrf well said couldn't have put it

better

myself um now someone else asks about

the this this clip that we showed at the

top of the show with the president of

the Heritage Foundation and they say

regarding that clip uh do you think

supporters of project 2025 are actually

willing to escalate to violence and Mark

I'm curious your thoughts on this from

the the DC

perspective man I hope not I mean for us

I mean it was January 6 was really

frightening and when you talk with

people on the hill it was essentially

the line was your colleagues tried to

physically harm you and it

was just jarring and frightening and

then how that impacted so if January 6th

is the sneak

preview I hope not and I hope really I

mean with the past few years whether as

you said sunshine and sunlight coming

from the January 6 commission I think

gave people a lot of pause and I really

hope what's happening is that people saw

wait a second Q andon isn't just like a

little game this could get very serious

this could get very serious quickly and

I have noticed in DC that there has been

a cooling down of temperatures over the

past uh four years that's been a little

helpful and I hope that people start

recognizing that politics can be more of

a you know disagreements are good and

that's fine but as this Zero Sum I win

you lose game it doesn't have to be like

that and I think that there are people

who have just had enough of the bad

thanksgivings and the Really unhelpful

conversations and I think that we're and

and you might be even seeing this in uh

Wisconsin of just you know maybe getting

off Twitter is a really good idea and

not paying attention to social media

quite as much and taking a breath and I

think I've seen just in my own life

people getting a little better at that

of just saying okay you know someone

said something maybe we don't need to go

full full out argument get out the fangs

and just be like okay that was a moment

how do we move forward together sure and

I would hope that you know recent events

with an attempted assassination of a

presidential candidate is also chilling

people out little bit kind of reflecting

on this and saying all right this is not

this is somewhere we've been before and

you know as a you know worldwide we've

been here many times before and it's a

path we don't want to go down so yeah I

really hope that there is this General

cooling but I mean there's there's

always going to be some you know really

extreme people who have decided that the

just like there's um there's no point

left in engaging in dialogue and I all

we can do is try to help people stay

away from that that Cliff Edge right

mhm I agree now we got a a legal

question here so I I'll Feld this one uh

that asks are there ways for the

Heritage Foundation and their allies to

explicitly Outlaw dissent from

Christianity uh so such as criminalizing

worship of other religions or lack

thereof or is that too extreme for even

Christian nationalists and um I mean

it's it's amazing that we're even that

this this is a reasonable question and

that's incredible to me if you know

anything about the First Amendment it's

the first protection in the Bill of

Rights is uh freedom of religion and the

right to a secular government and so the

answer to this should be extremely

simple that no this is the most blatant

imaginable First Amendment violation

this is not going to happen but the sad

reality is there is definitely a

contingency of the uh Christian

nationalist Heritage foundations who

would uh love to implement this they are

looking back to the way that the

colonies were before the United States

was a government where they they did

Implement things like this and this is

why we have the First Amendment uh

people in you know the early

pre-american colonists who had not

learned the lesson from Europe at the

time uh were repeating the same mistakes

and so fortunately our Founders kind of

realized this is not going to work we're

not going to be able to live together if

we're operating this way so um it's

another one of these where I hope that

calmer Minds Prevail the good news I

suppose is that we have the legal

structure are built in where uh you know

so long as the first amendment still

exists uh it what the description here

is I think that it's safe to say even

with the extreme Supreme Court like

again it's shocking that this would not

be a 90 decision but if I had to predict

I think we would probably get 72 in

favor of reason if there was a

government that uh you know that said we

are going to Outlaw non-Christian

warship if we're going to Outlaw

satanists from practicing their religion

privately something like that I think

we've still got seven votes on the

current Supreme Court to say this is

going too far so for the time being I

think we're safe from those sorts of

super extreme uh situations but once

again just um shocking that we are even

having this discussion it is it is a

good question yeah that's that's

definitely something I haven't thought

about uh that some folks would be anti-

Hester print I guess as it comes down to

it so we'll see what happen man that's a

lot to think about right now Mark for

your questions earlier uh early on about

uh how uh the the impact of project 2025

a reminder that uh 10 would be you know

the the biggest impact uh so we're

seeing I'm seeing 10 and eights a 10

with an exclamation point so um I would

have been my prediction but uh people

have confirmed that uh people agree that

this is a huge impact on the 20124

election uh so I'm glad that we're

talking about it uh again sad that we

had some technical difficulties with

David we'll have to get him back on the

show uh but that is all the time that we

have today on ask an atheist uh thank

you again for David for coming on to our

show this

week and uh you can follow David's work

at the guardian or by following him on

Twitter at smithin

America that wraps up this week's

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