The Decline Of Christianity In America
Summary
TLDRIn this insightful conversation, John Daniel Davidson, senior editor at The Federalist and author of 'Pagan America,' discusses the shift from a Christian to a post-Christian society. He argues that as Christianity wanes, the moral and cultural foundations it provided are also at risk of being lost. The discussion touches on how Christian doctrines, such as the belief in the inherent dignity of every individual, have shaped American values and government. Davidson suggests that without these Christian underpinnings, society may revert to a pagan ethos characterized by force and coercion. He also addresses the historical contradictions of Christian nations engaging in wars and subjugation, acknowledging these as departures from Christian ideals. The conversation challenges the notion that secular humanism or a 'Christless Christianity' can sustain the moral and cultural achievements of Western civilization, proposing instead that a post-Christian era may see a resurgence of pagan values antithetical to the principles that have guided societies for centuries.
Takeaways
- 📚 The author, John Daniel Davidson, argues in his book 'Pagan America' that the only alternative to Christianity in the post-Christian era is not secularism but paganism.
- 🌐 He suggests that as the number of non-practicing Christians and non-identifiers grows, the U.S. is moving towards a self-identified Christian minority for the first time.
- ⛪️ Davidson posits that the American system of government and way of life are products of Christian civilization and cannot exist independently of it.
- 🚫 Outside of Christianity, he warns that societal norms may devolve into a form of post-Christian neopaganism, which is based on force and coercion.
- 🤔 He challenges the idea that general morality or civic virtue could suffice to unite people without a foundational worldview or moral cosmology.
- 🏛 Davidson discusses how pagan societies historically viewed those outside their group as subjects for subjugation or exploitation, contrasting with Christian doctrine.
- 🇺🇸 He acknowledges that despite being a Christian nation, the U.S. has engaged in wars and acts of subjugation, but argues these are departures from Christian ideals.
- 🤝 The conversation touches on the potential for a 'christless Christianity' or secular humanism, but Davidson argues that culture relies on the vitality of its religious roots.
- 👑 He references historical debates within Christianity about the treatment of indigenous peoples, highlighting the influence of Christian thought on these discussions.
- 📉 Davidson suggests that as society moves away from Christianity, there is a risk of losing the moral virtues that have shaped Western civilization.
- 🌟 He concludes that the U.S. and Europe are entering a new, unprecedented era, and we should expect a resurgence of a pagan ethos that is fundamentally different from Christian morality.
Q & A
What is the central argument of John Daniel Davidson's book 'Pagan America'?
-The central argument of 'Pagan America' is that the only real alternative to Christianity in the post-Christian era is not secularism, but paganism. Davidson suggests that as the number of practicing Christians decreases, the United States is entering a new era that will likely see a resurgence of a pagan ethos, which is based on force and coercion, rather than Christian moral virtues.
How does Davidson define 'pagan morality' in the context of his discussion?
-Davidson defines 'pagan morality' as a system where if you are not part of my group, it's my moral duty to take what you have or subjugate you for the benefit of me and my people. He contrasts this with Christian morality, which posits inherent dignity and equality in every person.
What does Davidson suggest will happen to American values as Christianity declines?
-Davidson suggests that as Christianity declines, the values and principles that have shaped American society, such as human rights, freedom of speech, and consent of the governed, will not be able to exist on their own outside of a Christian moral cosmology. He argues that these values will devolve into a form of post-Christian neopaganism.
How does Davidson respond to the criticism that despite being a Christian nation, the United States has a history of wars and subjugation?
-Davidson acknowledges that there have been instances of subjugation and wars, but he argues that these are departures from the claims of Christianity. He emphasizes that Christianity as a moral and religious system claims equality between people, which is the basis for human rights and dignity.
What is Davidson's view on the possibility of retaining Christian moral virtues in a post-Christian society?
-Davidson argues that it is not feasible to retain Christian moral virtues in a post-Christian society. He believes that these virtues rely on the religious claims of Christianity as the source of their vitality and coherence. Without the religious foundation, he suggests that society would naturally revert to a pagan morality.
How does Davidson differentiate between the ideals of Christianity and the historical actions of Christian nations?
-Davidson differentiates between the ideals and the historical actions by stating that history is contingent and that the ideal of human equality or the perfect realization of Christian moral ideals has never been fully attained by any civilization, including Christian ones. However, he maintains that the philosophical and moral claims of Christianity provide a fundamentally different ontological claim about human beings than what pagan societies posited.
What is the role of the doctrine of imago Dei in Davidson's argument?
-The doctrine of imago Dei, or the belief that each person is created in the image and likeness of God, is central to Davidson's argument. He suggests that this doctrine underpins the inherent dignity and rights associated with individuals in the American system of government and way of life.
Davidson mentions a 'pagan ethos' emerging in the post-Christian era. What characteristics does he associate with this ethos?
-Davidson associates the 'pagan ethos' with a mentality based on force and coercion. He suggests that this ethos is in contrast to the Christian moral cosmology that has shaped Western civilization and that it may lead to a new social and cultural order.
How does Davidson address the issue of slavery in the context of Christian morality?
-Davidson acknowledges that there were Christians who supported slavery, but he argues that this support was a departure from Christian principles. He points out that the abolitionist movement was rooted in Christian arguments that recognized the inherent dignity of all human beings as children of God.
What is Davidson's perspective on the argument that secular humanism or a 'christless Christianity' could uphold the moral and cultural values derived from Christianity?
-Davidson contends that secular humanism or a 'christless Christianity' cannot sustain the moral and cultural values that originate from Christianity. He asserts that the culture and its values rely on the religious claims and vitality of Christianity, and without these religious underpinnings, the culture would lose coherence.
What does Davidson suggest is the fundamental difference between Christian civilization and pagan societies throughout history?
-Davidson suggests that the fundamental difference lies in the ontological claims about human beings and their inherent dignity. Christian civilization posits that all humans are created equal in the image of God, whereas pagan societies historically accepted and institutionalized inequalities, such as the concept of natural slavery.
Outlines
📚 Introduction to Pagan America: The Argument
The first paragraph introduces John Daniel Davidson, a senior editor at The Federalist and author of a new book titled 'Pagan America'. The conversation revolves around the concept of 'Pagan America', which posits that as the United States moves away from Christianity, it is not becoming secular but rather turning towards a form of paganism. Davidson argues that the American system of government and way of life are fundamentally based on Christian doctrines, and without these, the country may devolve into a form of post-Christian neopaganism. He emphasizes the importance of the Christian doctrine of imago Dei, which holds that each person is created in the image of God and thus has inherent dignity, as a foundational principle for human rights and freedoms.
🌐 The Post-Christian Era and Morality
In the second paragraph, the discussion continues on the implications of a post-Christian America. The author argues that secular humanism or a 'christless Christianity' cannot sustain the moral and cultural values that have been derived from Christianity. He suggests that without the Christian moral cosmology, there is no basis for the inherent dignity and equality of all people, which are foundational to the American way of life. Davidson also addresses the historical contradictions of Christian nations engaging in wars and subjugation, arguing that these actions represent departures from Christian ideals rather than embodiments of them.
🏛️ Historical Context and Debates on Humanity
The third paragraph delves into historical debates initiated by Catholic monks and scholars regarding the treatment of indigenous peoples in the Americas following Columbus's arrival. It contrasts the Christian perspective, which engaged in debates about the humanity and inherent dignity of these peoples, with the presumed lack of such debates in pagan societies. The paragraph also touches on the concept of natural slavery and rulership, which was a common theme in pagan philosophies but was fundamentally rejected by Christianity. The discussion highlights the unique aspects of Christian civilization and its influence on shaping a more equitable and just world.
🤝 Conclusion: The Future of Christian Ideals
The final paragraph concludes the discussion by acknowledging the shared foreign policy views among the participants, despite their differences in perspective. It suggests that the conversation was beneficial, particularly for providing a viewpoint from the right. The paragraph ends on a light-hearted note, inviting viewers to engage with the content and subscribe for more in-depth discussions. It also hints at the complexity of linking nationalism with Christianity, given the historical behavior of the United States, and encourages readers to read Davidson's book for a deeper understanding of the topic.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Pagan America
💡Christian Doctrine
💡Post-Christian Era
💡Secularism
💡Human Rights
💡Inherent Dignity
💡Pagan Morality
💡Golden Rule
💡Aristotle
💡Nationalism
💡Enlightenment
Highlights
Author John Daniel Davidson argues that the only alternative to Christianity in America is not secularism, but paganism.
In a post-Christian era, Christianity as a self-identified group may become a minority in the U.S. for the first time.
The American system of government and way of life are seen as products of Christian civilization.
The doctrine of imago Dei (image of God) is central to understanding inherent human dignity and rights.
The loss of Christian civilization may lead to a form of post-Christian neopaganism.
Pagan morality historically has been based on the subjugation of those outside one's own group.
Despite being a Christian nation, the U.S. has a history of wars and subjugation, which the author views as departures from Christian ideals.
Christianity posits equality and human rights, in contrast to many other moral and religious systems.
The culture and its vitality cannot exist without the religious claims that serve as its source.
The author challenges the idea of retaining Christian moral virtues in a post-Christian society.
Ancient pagan societies, such as the Romans and Greeks, had fundamentally different views on slavery and social hierarchy.
Christianity brought a moral revolution to the pagan view of the world, positing a new understanding of human relations.
The author suggests an unprecedented era is emerging, characterized by a resurgence of pagan mentality.
The Ottoman Empire and parts of China had societies that abolished slavery later than the West.
Christian debates over the treatment of indigenous peoples in the Americas were a product of Christian civilization.
The concept of human rights and the protection of non-combatants in war were developed by medieval Catholic Europe.
Nazism and communism are cited as examples of post-Christian societies that rejected Christian morality.
The author argues that the ideal of Christian civilization is never fully realized but serves as a guiding principle.
Despite historical shortcomings, the author maintains that Christianity has produced the greatest civilization the world has seen.
Transcripts
we are joined Now by John Daniel
Davidson he's my colleague at the
Federalist where he's a senior editor
but for the purposes of this
conversation he's also the author of a
new book Pagan America John welcome to
the show thanks for having me of course
now a lot of our viewers and actually a
lot of the country is frankly not
Christian not practicing Christian uh in
the way that you write about in this
book and definitely probably looks at
this and says what does Pagan America
mean and I'm not even just talking about
people on the left what do you mean by
okay so it means we've separated church
and state good yeah right okay so uh
Pagan America is uh an argument uh that
there's really only one alternative to
Christianity and it's not secularism
it's it's paganism right um and I don't
mean that uh in a post-christian era
that we're in as you said you know many
people in this country a growing number
of people are not practicing Christians
and a growing number don't even identify
as Christians I think in about 30 20 or
30 years we'll have uh Christianity as a
self-identified group as a minority in
this country for the first time ever
right and they might hear postchristian
America and think and Ryan you probably
hear that and you think okay I think
okay postchristian America is fine part
of the argument of the book is that
America uh as we know it and understand
it uh is only possible with a Christian
people in other words a people who
accept basic normative claims of
Christian doctrine Chief among them the
doctrine of imod day that each person is
created in the image and likeness of God
and therefore has inherent dignity from
when we get rights freedom of speech
religion consent of the governed um all
of the things that we associate with our
American system of government and our
American way of life are products of
Christian civilization they can't exist
on their own outside of that context
right outside of that context they
eventually devolve into a form of
post-christian neopaganism and that's
the era that we're emerging into today
as we shed our Christian civilization
we're also going to shed those those
things that we associate with our
American way of life that I just
enumerated and the reason is because
there's no basis for them outside of uh
a Christian moral cosmology uh that that
posits you know what human beings are
and what the relationship to God is and
what the relationship to one another
should
be so I pride myself in reading all the
books for before before we interview the
author and I just did not have time to
that's fine to get to this one so I
apologize so I'm coming in totally kind
of blank um but why is that the case why
can't just appreciation for civic virtue
and love of country and just general
morality like be enough to stitch
together a people people well General
morality uh has to be based on something
a vision of the world or a vision of
what human beings are right so Pagan
morality uh and this this holds true
across vast expanses of time and
geography and and cultures is that if
you are not part of my group then it's
my moral duty to take what you have or
subjugate you for the benefit of me and
my people right uh and that's what we
see over and over again throughout uh
history the history of of pagan peoples
and cultures right so let me ask about
so we've been a Christian Nation for a
couple hundred years we have launched
more Wars than any other Nation maybe in
history like in the 200 plus years that
we've been a country we've done some
subjugating we've done some subjugating
there have been only a few years out of
all of those years even during our
isolation quote unquote isolation period
while we're enacting a
genocide uh that we were not at War with
other people and subjugating them so
what what either it's not true that
Christianity allows us in a meaningful
way to see others as as equals and then
and treat them as we would like to be
treated um or we are just overriding
that as an Impulse like when when is
this Christianity going to kick
in well I I I wouldn't m i I want to be
careful we don't mistake an ideal for
for you know the you know history is
contingent and uh and and we're never
going to attain the ideal of like human
equality right or um or or a perfect
realization of uh Christian moral ideals
uh United States didn't do it uh
European civilization didn't do it I
don't think anyone's ever going to get
it right uh but that doesn't negate the
um uh the the fundamental sort of
philosophical and moral claims of
Christianity right um Christianity as
opposed to many other moral and
religious systems does claim inequality
between people and that's that's where
we get things like human rights the
basis for human rights and and and human
dignity um and so why can't you take it
out like in a post-christian America why
can't you say we like the ideas that
came from Christianity golden rules
golden we're taking the Christ out of it
and like we just yeah a christless
Christianity in other words or a or a a
um uh a secular humanism right uh this
is this is the argument you know that
that step Pinker or Richard Dawkins
would make right you know they want the
culture without the cult but you can't
have the culture without the cult
because the culture relies on the
religion and the religious claims uh as
the source of its Vitality the source of
its coherence right um why should a
people who are post-christian um retain
Christian moral virtues right why should
I think that all men are created equal
um when clearly in many ways people are
not equal we we see inequality all
around us um and and and why shouldn't
we adopt a a pagan morality that says
you know inequality and this is you know
the ancient Aristotle said this you know
the ancient pagans they understood
inequality means that um some people are
naturally slaves and some people are
naturally rulers and and if if if you're
poor uh that fate has decided that you
should be poor and and and that's your
lot Christianity you know brought a
moral Revolution to this this Pagan
morality and this Pagan cos ology and
posited a radically new way of
understanding the world and our
relations and it launched a a a radical
shift in human civilizations that had
never before been seen and so America is
one expression of that right and I mean
we can have different interpretations of
American History European civilization
uh is of course where we came from uh
but we're entering and this is what the
book argues we're entering this new sort
of unprecedented era a post-christian
era and my argument is we should not
expect the uh the Christian cosmology
the Christian moral virtues that
organized the West uh for all these
centuries to remain intact cut off from
the source of their Vitality right and
we should expect something new and the
new thing we should expect is a
Resurgence of this Pagan mentality the
Pagan ethos which is one that's based on
force and coercion but I guess it I'm
still trying to figure out like I was
saying earlier when when does the
Christianity kick in like you if if the
country is founded on these Christian
ideals and the country had Christians
supporting slavery Christians supporting
the ethnic cleansing of Native Americans
Christians supporting the Spanish
American War the the pH these departures
I think these were departures from from
Christianity absolutely okay let's I
mean these are departures from the
claims of Christianity right it's sort
of like uh true communism has never been
tried well I people mock that idea when
you when when actual Communists will say
look when's the communism gonna kick in
yeah when's the commun like you say well
the Soviet Union wasn't great Cuba
wasn't great well then that wasn't real
communism um but communism only had like
a 200 year run Christianity has had
2,000 years right and and and well I
mean I don't know about you but uh I
think that Christianity has produced a
uh the greatest civilization the world's
ever seen right which one's that this
the one that we're sitting in right now
right but certainly a fairer and juster
world than we've seen before well that's
what I'm saying I mean consider
something like you know uh the r Empire
right uh we have a tendency I guess
since the enlightenment to sort of
romanticize the Pagan past and in the
Roman world and the Greek World those
were slave societies most people in the
Roman Empire were slaves they didn't
have anything like rights right if you
were a a Roman citizen or Roman
Aristocrat you could do whatever you
wanted to people who were at a low in a
lower station than you you could rape
them you could murder them uh you could
you could discard them and and it wasn't
seen so far from not being any kind of
moral censure it was it was like a mark
of your rank that you were able to do
this this is true all through Pagan
societies as I said across time and
cultures but what about what about the
Ottoman Empire what about a lot of
Chinese Empire like throughout Chinese
history like you had you had people who
had probably far more rights societies
too I and abolished slavery later
actually in most of the Ottoman areas
than were in the west and what's
interesting about I think actually is a
lot one of the grossest arguments one of
the grossest Christian arguments in
favor of slavery in the United States
was these are not people and what's
interesting about that is because you
know as soon as you acknowledge these
are human beings and you're a Christian
you have to treat them equally as human
beings CH was the Abolitionist argument
right well I was say if you could talk
because that's in the book about how
Christians get blamed for perpetrating
slavery I think rightfully there was a
Christian argument that was made in
favor of slavery it's a Christian
argument that's made in front of awful
imp ISM and uh to your point ethnic
cleansing but if you go to if if you
talk about what happened when Columbus
arrived it was B mes kasas that was
saying this is awful from a Christian
perspective yeah so the debates over you
know what should yeah what should uh the
proper disposition of Christian
Europeans be toward the indigenous
peoples of the Americas that was a
debate that was initiated by uh Catholic
monks and Scholars in in Spain right uh
who who had these the indigen had a view
on it too no I'm saying from the
European perspective of what should our
disposition be toward these peoples on
in the new world uh and there was a
there was a debate about their Humanity
about what responsibilities the Catholic
church and the crown had to these people
uh it was the kind of debate uh you know
the fact that they were having a debate
about this at all I would say is is a
product of Christian civilization it's
not kind of thing that would have been
debated in a pagan Society at all it
would have been absolutely just sub
these people debates in the Ottoman
Empire the debates in China debates in
Japan like there's everybody debates
like uh I'm talking about a debate about
whether or not these people should be
just enslaved like animals and and
treated as such or uh should their
inherent dignity uh and Humanity be
recognized as children of God and and
our goal should be to to Greeks and the
Romans all debated that uh and on one
side of I mean Aristotle debated the he
disagreed with the the practice how
slavery was practiced but he accepted at
the very beginning of the politics he
accepts the premise of natural slavery
and natural rulers his quibble is with
the implementation of it not not with
the the philosophical uh position that
slavery is a natural state for some
people and and this is this was common
but this was never accepted uh in in
Christianity in centuries and centuries
of Catholic Europe it was only in a
modern context uh in the 19th century
when the the antibellum South posited
this very unchristian uh very Pagan
argument that slavery was natural and it
was an abortion it was a departure from
how Christianity had been approaching
this issue for centuries and centuries
uh not only the new world against
slavery in like 1100 yeah that's what
I'm saying I mean the the idea of Human
Rights or of of of Peace of in you know
that that war should uh should be
confined and uh non-combatants should be
protected these were things that
medieval Catholic Europe came up with
it's true but one reason for that is
that these these Christians were doing
more war than anybody else in history
than who than gask
Khan gask Khan gas Khan gask Khan is the
exception more more War uh than North
Americans South Americans uh Chinese um
Africans more war than the Aztecs I
don't know more war than I mean more war
than the Egyptians Kaman you know look
look around the world like look at the
the biggest Wars and the US and Europe
you're talking about modern like World
War I World War II if you're talking
about right yeah but but if you look at
how far they went well World War II was
a pagan War right I mean Nazi Germany
was a post-christian
society uh communist uh the Soviet Union
was a post-christian society the these
were these were um n's primary argument
against Christianity was that it was uh
in some ways too Nazis were people I
think Nazis were yeah Nazis absolutely
Pagan so Nazis were honest enough like
the marquad right to uh uh to to say if
we're going to reject Christianity then
we then then the Christian morality has
got to go there's no basis to treat
people as though they have inherent
dignity and worth let's just liquidate
all these people but they tried to keep
the trappings they they liked some of
the trappings of Christianity but they
took chist quite literally took Christ
out of the Christianity and didn't they
go after the Communist as
Godless the Nazis were were their God
was sort of the the pagan vul right the
uh this very clearly hearkening back to
a pre-christian even in their Aesthetics
right you know the there's no sense in
which the Nazis were were a
manifestation of uh Christian cosmology
right this was this was very clearly
post-christian and so when I say
post-christian and the reason I say that
the Nazis were at least honest about it
is that it if you get rid of the
Christian claims uh you eventually have
to get rid of the Christian morality too
so I I mentioned the marqu Assad during
the Enlightenment there was this this
this rejection overt rejection of
Christianity and specifically attacks
against the Catholic Church marquad said
well not only should we attack
Christianity but we should sweep away
Christian morality as well there's no
reason why the strong should you know uh
scrape and bow before the weak that
that's against nature right that's what
n said too yeah that's and that's what
marad that's what n said that's what you
know the Nazis said right um and that is
what Pagan Society that's the principle
on which Pagan societies had always been
organized and what I'm saying is that
Christian civilization was organized on
different principles never fully
realized right ideals that we are always
moving toward never never quite going to
achieve because this is this is the
world and we're Fallen you know um
people are what they are uh but the
ideal and the claim the ontological
claim about what people are was
fundamentally different than what pagans
posited last r r no go ahead and read
this book but I I don't know I think if
uh if the US is held up as the example
um as the most Christian Nation uh that
doesn't bode well
for linking nationalism and Christianity
just based on our Behavior over the last
200 years I was say what's somewhat
interesting about this conversation is
that all three of us share very very
similar foreign policy uh at the moment
so I I don't know what your guys's
foreign policy he's a full
Lon um but no I mean we pretty much
agree on what's happening right now all
that is to say uh I actually think it
was this was very helpful to have a
conversation from the right uh we do a
lot on the left and it was great to have
one from the right I appreciate y'all
having me on you read the book and then
we'll come back and talk about it some
more and then we'll do a fist fight
there go it'll be see who can
try would wouldn't be not Christian well
if you leave me out of it it would be
kind of of Christian keep the women the
vulnerable out of this this fight all
right John Daniel Davidson thanks for
joining us thanks for having me
appreciate it hey if you liked that
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