The Narcissism Doctor: THESE Toxic Patterns Are Signs You're Dealing With A Narcissist
Summary
TLDRIn this insightful conversation, Dr. Romany discusses the complexities of narcissism and its impact on relationships. She clarifies the difference between narcissistic personality traits and Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), emphasizing that while many people exhibit narcissistic traits, a formal diagnosis of NPD requires a professional assessment. The discussion delves into the patterns of narcissistic relationships, which often begin with an idealized phase called 'love bombing' before descending into a cycle of manipulation, invalidation, and emotional abuse. Dr. Romany highlights the importance of recognizing when a relationship is unhealthy and the challenges of disentangling oneself from such dynamics. She also addresses the process of healing from narcissistic abuse, which involves understanding one's own value and establishing boundaries. The conversation underscores the significance of empathy and self-compassion in healing, while also acknowledging the potential for growth and change in individuals with narcissistic tendencies, though such change is often a long and difficult journey.
Takeaways
- 🚫 **Narcissism vs. Narcissistic Personality Disorder**: Narcissism is a personality style, not inherently a disorder, whereas Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is a formal diagnosis given by a licensed therapist after observing consistent, pervasive patterns of narcissistic behavior across various relationships.
- 🌟 **The Allure of Narcissists**: Narcissists are often attracted to individuals who can provide them with 'supply,' which can include physical attractiveness, status, praise, or simply being a nice person who offers validation.
- 🔄 **Consistent Patterns in Narcissistic Relationships**: Relationships with narcissists often follow a pattern that includes an idealized beginning, manipulation, invalidation, gaslighting, rage, blame-shifting, deceit, and eventual discarding once the narcissist no longer finds the relationship useful.
- ⏳ **The Role of Time in Narcissistic Relationships**: Over time, the dynamic in a narcissistic relationship can shift from a seemingly positive connection to one that is increasingly negative and emotionally draining for the non-narcissistic partner.
- 🧲 **Trauma Bonding**: Individuals in relationships with narcissists can experience a form of trauma bonding, which involves alternating between positive and negative experiences, leading to intense emotional attachment despite the harm being caused.
- 😔 **The Impact of Narcissistic Abuse**: Survivors of narcissistic abuse often report feelings of anxiety, sadness, self-blame, and a loss of sense of self, which can result in a struggle to regain their identity and autonomy post-relationship.
- 🤔 **Justification and Cognitive Dissonance**: People in narcissistic relationships may justify the narcissist's behavior due to cognitive dissonance, finding it difficult to accept the inconsistency between their expectations of the relationship and the reality they experience.
- 🌱 **Healing and Growth**: Healing from a narcissistic relationship involves relearning one's own needs and desires, regaining self-confidence, and building a support network of validating relationships.
- 🔗 **The Challenge of Change for Narcissists**: While change is possible for narcissists, it requires a significant amount of humility, self-awareness, and a commitment to therapy and personal growth that many may not be willing or able to achieve.
- 🤝 **Support Networks**: Having a support network that can provide validation and counteract the effects of gaslighting is crucial for individuals recovering from narcissistic abuse.
- ❌ **The Myth of Forgiveness and Healing**: Forgiving a narcissist is not a prerequisite for healing. It is possible to empathize with a narcissist while also recognizing the harm they have caused and maintaining boundaries.
Q & A
What is the difference between a narcissist and someone with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD)?
-A narcissist refers to someone with a maladaptive personality style characterized by traits like entitlement, grandiosity, and a lack of empathy. Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is a clinical diagnosis given by a licensed therapist who identifies consistent and pervasive narcissistic patterns across various relationships and situations.
Why might a person be attractive to a narcissist?
-A person may be attractive to a narcissist because they can provide 'supply' to the narcissist, which can include physical attractiveness, status, praise, or simply being a nice person who offers validation and admiration.
What is the initial phase of a relationship with a narcissist often called, and what are its characteristics?
-The initial phase is often called 'love bombing,' characterized by intense attention, gestures, and seeming attunement to the new partner. However, this attention can later be used against the person, as the narcissist may exploit vulnerabilities they learned during this phase.
What are some common traits or behaviors exhibited by someone with NPD in a relationship?
-Common traits and behaviors include manipulation, invalidation, minimization, gaslighting, rage, blame-shifting, deceit, betrayal, lying, infidelity, and neglect. The narcissist seeks supply and validation, showing little interest in the other person's needs or reality.
Why do people often struggle to leave a relationship with a narcissist?
-People struggle to leave because of attachment needs, societal pressures, and the trauma bonding that occurs due to the intense emotional cycles (good and bad) created by the narcissist. Additionally, empathetic individuals may be more prone to making excuses and justifications, hoping to maintain the relationship.
What is the impact of narcissistic abuse on a person's psychological well-being?
-The impact includes feelings of rumination, regret, anxiety, sadness, self-blame, self-doubt, hypervigilance, social anxiety, dissociation, sleep problems, and neurovegetative symptoms of depression. However, most survivors do not develop clinical depression.
How does empathy function in the context of a relationship with a narcissist?
-Empathy can function as a survival response, where the individual tries to be as kind and good as possible to win over the narcissist. This can lead to confusion and shame after the relationship ends, as the person questions why they were so nice to someone who was abusive.
What is the role of forgiveness in the healing process after experiencing narcissistic abuse?
-Forgiveness is not a necessary component of healing. Some people may find it beneficial, but for others, it can be harmful, especially if it involves repeatedly forgiving a repeat perpetrator. The focus should be on healing and self-preservation rather than granting forgiveness.
What is radical acceptance, and how does it play a role in the healing process?
-Radical acceptance is the absolute acceptance that the narcissist's behavior is not going to change in a way that would result in a healthy relationship. It is about recognizing the reality of the situation and making decisions based on that understanding, which can lead to a profound sense of grief but is a crucial step in healing.
What are some strategies to help someone rebuild their sense of self after a relationship with a narcissist?
-Strategies include focusing on basic physiological needs and preferences, seeking support from trusted others who can validate experiences, trying new activities to build self-efficacy, and gradually working towards understanding one's identity, values, and purpose.
Can a narcissist ever heal or change?
-While change is unlikely, it is not impossible. A narcissist may experience some degree of change if they engage in therapy with a skilled professional, demonstrate humility, and commit to years of dedicated work. However, the harm caused to others is often not fixable, and expecting a narcissist to change is generally not a healthy approach.
Outlines
😀 Understanding Narcissism and Its Impact on Relationships
The first paragraph discusses the attraction of narcissistic individuals to those who provide them with 'supply,' which can include physical attractiveness, status, praise, and validation. It emphasizes the importance of recognizing when a relationship with a narcissist is becoming unhealthy and knowing how to disengage. The speaker also invites the audience to join a community focused on health and wellness, and clarifies the difference between narcissism as a personality style and Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), which is a more severe and chronic condition recognized by a therapist's diagnosis.
😐 The Cultural Awareness of Narcissism and Its Challenges
The second paragraph explores the cultural shift in awareness and dialogue surrounding narcissism. It suggests that narcissistic traits have likely always been present but are now more openly discussed and identified. The paragraph also addresses the negative consequences of public shaming and the complexities of diagnosing NPD. It highlights the importance of clear communication and understanding the nuances of narcissistic behavior in various relationships.
😟 The Allure and Danger of Narcissistic Relationships
The third paragraph delves into why people are attracted to narcissists, noting that it's not necessarily due to a lack of self-esteem but rather a range of factors that provide 'supply' to the narcissist. It outlines the consistent pattern of a narcissistic relationship, likening the narcissist to a volcano with shame and insecurity as its bubbling lava. The paragraph explains how narcissists use various tactics to maintain control and supply, including manipulation, invalidation, and deceit.
😔 The Trauma Bond and the Struggle with Leaving Narcissistic Relationships
The fourth paragraph discusses the concept of the trauma bond that forms in narcissistic relationships, which leads to a cycle of blame and self-justification. It explains how the narcissistic person's behavior can fluctuate between idealization and devaluation, causing confusion and a sense of loss when the relationship ends. The paragraph also touches on the primal human need for attachment and how it can lead to self-devaluing behavior in the face of abusive or unattuned relationships.
🧐 The Psychological Impact of Narcissistic Abuse and the Role of Empathy
The fifth paragraph examines the deep psychological effects of narcissistic abuse, which include rumination, regret, anxiety, sadness, and self-blame. It highlights the role of empathy in these relationships and how it can become a survival response, leading to a state of hypervigilance and dissociation. The paragraph also discusses the importance of maintaining empathy while healing from the abuse and the challenge of differentiating between empathy and forgiveness.
😢 The Journey of Healing from Narcissistic Abuse
The sixth paragraph focuses on the process of healing from narcissistic abuse. It emphasizes the importance of not amputating one's empathetic nature but rather learning to be more discerning. The paragraph discusses the challenges of maintaining empathy while disengaging from a harmful relationship and the complex emotions that arise, such as pity and guilt. It also addresses the concept of forgiveness in the context of narcissistic abuse and the personal decision-making involved in forgiving or not forgiving the abuser.
🤔 The Role of Radical Acceptance and Grief in Healing
The seventh paragraph introduces the concept of radical acceptance as a crucial part of healing from narcissistic abuse. It defines radical acceptance as the complete acknowledgment that the narcissistic person's behavior will not change in a way that would result in a healthy relationship. The paragraph also discusses the grief that follows this acceptance, as it involves letting go of hopes and narratives attached to the relationship. It highlights the importance of resilience and flexibility in coping with the grief and moving forward.
😌 Rebuilding Identity and Self-Worth Post-Narcissistic Abuse
The eighth paragraph discusses the process of re-establishing one's identity and self-worth after leaving a narcissistic relationship. It emphasizes the importance of reconnecting with one's physiological and emotional experiences, making small decisions, and gradually rebuilding a sense of self. The paragraph also touches on the significance of having a support system that validates one's experiences and the concept of turning to trusted others for affirmation and anti-gaslighting.
😕 The Internal Struggle and Oscillation in the Healing Process
The ninth paragraph explores the internal struggle that survivors of narcissistic abuse face as they oscillate between progress and feelings of loss or confusion. It discusses the importance of embracing this oscillation as part of the healing process and the role of an individuated self in overcoming the internalized voice from the narcissistic relationship. The paragraph also highlights the need for external validation and the process of relearning and rebuilding self-efficacy.
😇 The Potential for Change in Narcissistic Individuals and the Survivor's Journey
The tenth paragraph considers whether narcissistic individuals can change and heal. It acknowledges that some narcissistic people, shaped by adversity, may make progress if they engage in therapy and work on personal growth with humility. The paragraph also addresses the reality that the harm done to others by narcissistic individuals is often not easily repairable. It advises against waiting for a narcissist to change, as it can lead to a loss of self and potential. The conversation concludes with a message of hope and affirmation for survivors, emphasizing their value and the importance of their gifts to the world.
📚 Promoting Awareness and Support for Survivors of Narcissistic Abuse
The eleventh paragraph serves as a call to action for readers to seek out resources and support for dealing with narcissistic abuse. It promotes Dr. Ramy's book as a source of knowledge and insights for understanding and healing from narcissistic relationships. The paragraph encourages readers to follow Dr. Ramy on social media for further guidance and to share their experiences and takeaways from the conversation to help others who may be in similar situations.
🌟 Embracing Difficult Feelings and the Importance of Motivation
The twelfth and final paragraph shifts the focus to the broader topic of dealing with negative emotions and the concept of motivation. It suggests that motivation, like any other emotion, can fluctuate and should not be forced. The paragraph ends with a teaser for an upcoming interview with Dr. Julie Smith on the subject of embracing difficult feelings, hinting at further valuable insights for listeners.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Narcissism
💡Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD)
💡Supply
💡Trauma Bond
💡Gaslighting
💡Radical Acceptance
💡Empathy
💡Forgiveness
💡Healing Journey
💡Humility
💡Individuation
Highlights
Narcissistic people are attracted to those who provide them with supply, such as physical attractiveness, status, praise, and may be drawn to kind and praising individuals.
It's important to recognize when to disengage from a narcissistic person before the relationship becomes too toxic.
The distinction between a narcissist, which is a personality style, and Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), which is a clinical diagnosis.
The prevalence of narcissism in history and how it's often associated with significant figures who have made substantial impacts, both positive and negative.
The cultural shift in discussing narcissism and how social media and platforms have facilitated a broader conversation about it.
The pattern of a narcissistic relationship often begins with an idealized and seductive phase, known as love bombing, before shifting to a more manipulative and devaluing dynamic.
The concept of 'supply' in narcissistic relationships, referring to the attention and admiration that narcissists seek and feed off.
The impact of narcissistic abuse can lead to feelings of worthlessness, self-doubt, and a loss of identity for the victim.
The necessity of radical acceptance in the healing process, which involves acknowledging the unchanging nature of a narcissist's behavior.
The role of grief in the healing journey, as letting go of the hope for change in a narcissist involves mourning the loss of the expected relationship.
The importance of re-establishing self-identity and autonomy post-abuse, which includes regaining trust in one's feelings and reactions.
The potential for healing and growth for survivors of narcissistic abuse, emphasizing the rebuilding of self-worth and self-confidence.
The challenge of narcissistic individuals in recognizing and accepting their own ordinariness and the need for humility in the healing process.
The difficulty for narcissists to maintain changes in behavior, often reverting back to their original patterns when under stress.
The advice against waiting for a narcissist to change, as the likelihood is low and the cost to one's own well-being is high.
The transformative power of empathy in healing from narcissistic relationships, while maintaining boundaries and self-protection.
The book 'It's Not You: Identifying and Healing from Narcissistic People' as a resource for understanding and recovering from narcissistic abuse.
Transcripts
narcissistic people are attracted to
people who will give them Supply
physical attractiveness status praise so
you just being a nice person and
praising someone could actually be what
makes you attractive to them so people
may think well does that mean I have to
stop being me I'd say no they may be
attracted to you and you may be
compelled for a minute but the key is
then to know how to get off the carousel
before it starts going too fast before
we jump into this episode I'd like to
invite you to join this community to
hear more into views that will help you
become happier healthier and more healed
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Subscribe button I love your support
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means the world to me the number one
Health and Wellness podcast J shett J
shett the one the only J
shett I want to start off Dr Romany by
again clarifying terms because I think
we're living at a time where there's so
many terms on Tik Tok and YouTube and
social media and often they transpire
into how we talk to our family members
friends yes what is the difference
between a narcissist and narcissistic
personality disorder so let's start
there because this is already muddying
the water so much right so narcissism is
a personality style right there's lots
of different personality Styles out
there certainly narcissism is a more
maladaptive personality style because it
puts people at odds with other people
it's not good for their relationship but
it is a personality style and in of
itself it's not a disorder there is
something called narcissistic
personality disorder which is when a
person is presenting with these various
narcissistic patterns we've talked about
the low and variable empathy the
entitlement the grandiosity the
arrogance the Envy the admiration and
validation seeking that whole laundry
list the egocentricity all the
selfishness all that stuff right so all
of that is happening it's chronic it's
pervasive it shows up in their life and
various on a whole bunch of different
relationships the difference is they
actually go to a therapist office who's
licensed and trained to issue a
diagnosis and that therapist determines
like yep I'm seeing these patterns
they're consistent they're across
situations and they may assign them that
diagnosis the vast majority of people
who have this personality style are
never going to be in a practitioner's
office who's going to make that
determination and it gets tricky right
because to call something a disorder
raises a whole bunch of issues
personally Jay if I ran the world I
think we'd get rid of this diagnosis I
think we get nothing out of it it
doesn't I don't even think it helps the
clients a lot of clinicians don't issue
it because it feels stigmatizing there's
a whole host of reasons I think it
shouldn't be but it is right now here's
what you've got to remember when we look
at narcissism in the world right so
there's people out there who are
narcissistic they might be mildly
narcissistic and a little bit more
emotionally immature and just sort of
selfish and shallow all the way up to
severe where it can be malignant and and
it can be uh coercive and manipulative
and all of that and there's all the
stuff in between this book is really
focused on the in between right so most
people aren't dealing with someone
coercive that's and many are and that's
a much more severe issue that is
probably beyond the scope of the
book but most people who are dealing
with the mild
narcissism they're frustrated and
annoyed but they're not
devastated and hurt like we see in that
sort of middle level of narcissism right
so the difference is literally that sort
of mechanical point they weren't seen by
someone and I don't know that any listen
I'll be honest with you if I met someone
at a dinner party and they start telling
me their life I might even think in my
head I've got a hypothesis clinically
what's happening in no Universe we
occupy would I ever say to that person
even if I talked to them for two hours I
think you have generalized anxiety
disorder I think you have bipolar too I
just wouldn't say it right it's not the
setting it's not the situation I might
strongly suggest say hey you should talk
to someone right so what get where it
gets interesting is the mistake a lot of
people make is number one they assume
that if a person has narcissistic
personality disorder that their
narcissism is more severe not
necessarily there are people out there
with NPD narcissistic personality
disorder whose narcissism actually is
not as severe as people who were never
diagnosed because they never went into
that situation so you see what I'm
saying so there's people out there who
are malignant narcissistic people
they're never seen by anyone we can
speculate we could spitball we' say yeah
it's probably the case but that person
with NPD May simply seen a clinician the
other piece though here too is that what
it's doing is it's creating this very
sort of strange space where people are
saying these are the patterns I'm seeing
in a partner parent whomever I think
they might be narcissistic and the
internet as it does is very quick to to
shame that person who do you think you
are how could you think this about
someone and this person has probably
already been really hurt really
devastated by this relationship is now
being shamed for sharing like I think
this might be what's happening it's also
creating this s really painful space so
suffice it to say I think in the public
conversation about narcissism we should
only call it narcissism getting into the
Weeds on NPD is really getting on this
sort of subtle clinical point and it
just creates it it makes a lot of noise
here so we're not able to have the clear
conversation that these personality
styles are harming the people who are in
these
relationships yeah it makes a lot of
sense why do you think it is that all of
a sudden it seems at least culturally
that more people are interacting with
narcissists like you'll be talking to a
friend and they'll be like oh God I'm so
glad I just got out relationship with
the narcissist or I'm struggling I'm
healing as your book teaches you how to
like I'm healing from this relationship
I had I think they were narcissistic
like why is it all of a sudden we're
feeling this kind of awareness in
culture has it always been there has it
increased what what's happened it's
always been there J I think as long as
there were people it has been there and
I always say to people open up a history
book I'd say about 75% of the people
they've written about in that history
book were probably quite narcissistic
narcissistic people make history they
and in fact honestly they often are
responsible for some of the greatest
Innovations we've ever known doesn't
make them nice people and I'd say let
them innovate just don't go on a date
with them you know that's really what
we're talking about here so there is an
outof the-box to them there's a fantasy
that they live in that they often feel
compelled to create so you better
believe that they've always been there I
don't know that we would have had the
leaps and balance we've had in some ways
without that right so that said it's
always been there but we never had a
name for it remember psychology is a
field in its infancy what's it been
around 1507 25 years so it's it's
evolving and so this concept of talking
about someone's personality in this way
maybe since the late 1800s we've even
been having that conversation people
have been doing narcissistic stuff to
Partners children family members since
time
immemorial we just didn't have a name
for it I think at some level because
until recently I think almost all
cultures were probably much more author
itarian patriarchally patriarchally
organized I think we're seeing sort of
bigger conversations around that so I
think there was almost a strange sort of
universal radical acceptance that some
people are just really jerky and let's
just follow what they're saying and and
so we didn't we just didn't even think
of it that way but we see history books
of Kings who were ogres and Invaders who
were horrific and these were not nice
people they were the narcissists of
their time now to your other question
why are we talking about it like even 10
years ago a person wouldn't have said my
partner my boy you heard it that's what
I mean but they would have said first of
all we didn't have the platforms but if
they did talk about they're such a jerk
why do they keep doing this to me I
can't figure this out everyone has
always been having the conversations we
didn't we're using different languaging
now and if anything we now have a
construct we and and we Now understand
this hangs together the point of this
book was really to say there are people
with these personalities they're out
there the way they show up in
relationships is pretty consistently the
same and instead of blaming yourself and
wondering what you could do it's not you
yeah it's really them and they're having
their process and their journey and
probably not going to get the help they
need to defend it against it but rolling
up and turning your life into a human
sacrifice to please or win over or prove
something to an unwinable over person I
have watched people waste lifetimes
doing this you know and it's even
particularly compelling if it's her
parent but even if it's a long-term
intimate relationship with some
especially if they got into the
relationship young so this has always
been a thing yeah no that's that's that
makes a lot of sense and I appreciate
how our vocabulary evolves with time and
as that expands and extends it allows us
to Better Label and understand things
and I know that this book is primarily
about the relationship a narcissistic
relationship and then the healing
Journey but before we dive into that I
wanted to ask you a question how do you
stop attracting a narcissist like is
there a way to not attract a narcissist
Dre I wish I could say yes and here's
where I want to actually give my props
to everyone's listening out there who
has attracted a narcissist you know why
you attracted a narcissist because
you're attractive and what I mean by
attractive is you may be physically
beautiful it may be your physique it may
be your something you know it may be
your social status it may be that you
could do something for them what's
attractive to them may not be attractive
to the rest of us you're attractive to
them because you're attractive because
you may have power of some kind in the
world when I say power I don't mean like
you're a leader I mean you're
self-possessed many people who get into
these relationships we have this
mistaken assumption that the people who
get into these relationships are
Shrinking Violets who have low
self-esteem absolutely not I I've got to
tell you some of the people i' seen get
into these relationships I'm like woo I
should have your self-esteem they there
there they're strong and they're they
know who they are and they're saying
this thing dismantled me Brick by Brick
I was really well put together when I
met this person right so this isn't
about a person who doesn't have
self-esteem it can be but it's
definitely not an absolute narcissistic
people are attracted to people who will
give them Supply what is supply for
every narcissistic person might be a
little different but it's usually
physical attractiveness status praise so
you just being a nice person and
praising someone could actually be what
makes you attractive to them so people
may think well does that mean I have to
stop being me I'd say no they may be
attracted to you and you may be
compelled for a minute but the key is
then to know how to get off the carousel
before it starts going too fast good
answer good answer I'm like it it makes
a lot of sense and again it's not you
it's not you it comes back to that which
I like to walk me through the consistent
you talk about narcissism being
consistent walk me through the
consistent pattern of a narcissistic
relationship so that anyone who's
listening can because I think like
you're saying a lot of us sometimes feel
scared to admit that we might even be
with a narcissist because it's it's
scary to accept that and admit that and
have that realization because we think
it's something to do with us we think
we've wasted time there can be a sunk
cost bias of I thought I had a future
with this person so walk me through the
pattern of a narcissistic relationship
let's just talk briefly
it helps us understand the pattern they
have traits things like I talked about
the entitlement the lack of empathy the
grandiosity the arrogance the
selfishness I want you to think of a
narcissistic person as a volcano and
that volcano has got this bubbling lava
and the lava for the narcissistic person
is shame and insecurity so they want to
be able to plug the top of that volcano
right and that plug is all this stuff
the entitlement the grandiosity I'm
perfect I'm great it's this so it it
keeps all that stuff under WS that's not
a conscious process right so but every
so often in life something's going to
push that lid off to the side which
might be feedback a criticism somebody
ends a relationship with them whatever
it is something their day doesn't go the
way they want they get stuck in traffic
and they're late to something they don't
get the table they want in a restaurant
whatever it may be that nudges that man
hole cover over and the lava starts
spilling out and that lava is their rage
and their anger because their shame has
been shown all of this is unconscious so
all these patterns in the
relationship the way they show up in the
narcissistic person is
manipulation invalidation of the other
person minimization of what another
person is going through uh gaslighting
rage and
reactivity uh future faking which means
promises are made and broken just to
keep a person sort of on the hook um
there will be uh blame shifting they
won't take responsibility they'll always
blame the other person which is why
people in these relationships always
tend to blame themselves there's a lot
of Deceit betrayal lying infidelity
there is neglect over time they just
give less and less and less to the
relationship and the person in the
relationship is trying to make do on the
tiniest tiniest bits of being noticed
that's how they show up in the
relationship everything in the
relationship is about them getting
Supply and validation they have
absolutely no interest in the needs
wants and honestly subjective reality of
the other person in the relationship
over time the other person gets almost
is considered an inconvenience if you
want something you're an inconvenience
much like this cup Cup's convenient when
I want to drink from it but the cup all
of a sudden said hey can you take me to
CVS on the way home like what cup you're
a cup don't tell me that so they view Us
in that sort of objectified lens all of
these dynamics mean that over time in
order for the relationship ship to work
the other person has to entirely
sacrifice themselves and buy into the
reality system of the narcissistic
person but that doesn't all happen
overnight oftentimes at least in an
adult narcissistic relationship whether
it's an intimate relationship or
friendship that early phase is very
idealized and seductive it's called love
bombing but it's really this phase where
they're winning not only winning you
over with gestures and tactics but with
Attunement and atten or seeming
Attunement and attention they pay pay
intense attention to you but you realize
afterwards is some of that intense
attention was them learning things about
you that were going to be turned around
and used against you down the road
that's often a point of Devastation for
a person who says I was vulnerable with
this person I told them things that i'
never told anyone before and then six
months in I was being shamed and
humiliated and and you know it was being
used to sort of destabilize me there is
a point where that love bombing phase
then starts heading into a place where
there's 10 good things one bad thing oh
one bad thing everyone has a bad day
nine Bad Thing nine good things one bad
thing over time though that ratio pretty
much comes to like maybe one to one so
now you're having as much difficult
challenging stuff and then these little
sprinklings of good things happening
that's the origin of the trauma bond
that back and forth good bad hot cold
I'm here I'm not here is where people
will often find themselves falling into
a cycle of justifying blaming themselves
because it was so great it was great for
two or three months so how did it not
become great maybe I'm doing something
so the person will literally it's almost
like you know when you open a bag you
know you're trying to find something in
a bag and you take everything out of the
bag chaotically and it's all in the
airport on the ground and it was that
one little like your headphones that's
what people in narcissistic
relationships do they open the bag that
is themselves and pull everything out
trying to figure out what is wrong with
me why did go from baby where can I take
you to dinner I'll take you anywhere to
what like please stop interrupting me
and you're you're thinking what just
happened and so basically once the
narcissistic person almost feels kind of
confident they've got your supply
whether it's a promise maybe you live
with them maybe you've really committed
into a long-term relationship you said I
love you or whatever that they've got
you where they want you then there're
sort of almost narcissistic folks are
also very novelty seeking they kind of
get bored easily so you being around
from time to time they'll be into you
but then from other times they won't
they do like they do like the idea that
someone's a constant source of supply
and then over time there can be a real
process of discard they just really it
can feel like they just don't care at
all anymore basically what they do is
they no longer fulfill the roles and
responsibilities of what it means to be
in a close relationship which is empathy
compassion kindness Attunement
self-awareness these are the respons
responsibilities we have in a human
relationship and they do not fulfill
them I even hate putting them as
responsibilities I think that they come
automatically for healthy person and
then if you do decide to leave or even
if they decide to leave you start to
enter potentially a cat and- Mouse game
of hoovering where they'll pull you back
see how you're doing sometimes they'll
even figure out oh they're happy now let
me go see if I can SP spin that around a
little bit wow wow I mean those
patterns sound so
painful and they found they sound so
strenuous and stressful and you know
heartbreaking in so many ways why what
are the
excuses that people keep telling
themselves and what
justifications stop us from healing I
mean it go even more foundationally on
that why do we justify right when you
think about one of the most Primal human
needs needs it's attachment we need
other people we are not meant to be solo
acts human beings are tribal we we
evolved in social groups our brains
didn't change that much we still need
our people we need love we do we need
connection and people say what about the
narcissist I said they need it more than
anyone they want all the Supply right so
we need to be together but that
especially in a child that need for
attachment is everything and if a child
has an unattuned parent or even an
abusive parent the child doesn't have
the option to say I think I'm going to
split up with them and see what I'm
going to go on parent hinge and see if I
can find someone new right doesn't work
like that the child has to hold this
parent in esteem which means the child
then needs to devalue themselves what am
I doing wrong how could I be more and
the child really learns how to be
everything that parent wants and needs
to the detriment of their own needs
right this is our back story all exactly
so now let's just jump that to adulthood
right so the child comes up with all
kinds of fantasies but in adulthood they
may be things like everyone has a bad
day relationships are tough I'm no
picnic myself they've been working
really
hard we did have a good weekend they did
tell me I love you I mean I could go on
for the next two hours about all the
justifications I've heard right so the
justifications are not not only
proliferate they come easily and Jay
they're reinforced by the world right
because the world will say oh
relationships are tough maybe they're
just having a bad day right so now what
you're saying is completely in line with
sort of what the prevailing wisdom would
be and you do that enough every time
these really invalidating destabilizing
things that cut to the core of your
identity happen the people who tend to
get more stuck in these relationships
quite frankly are the more empathic
people while narcissistic people are
attracted to people who are whatever
Supply attractive they are to them the
people who get stuck are the people who
are more vulnerable to trauma bonding
and who have more empathy and as a
results are more likely to make those
excuses and justifications right they're
going to be more open to the idea that
there's there's always different ways to
there's another point of view that's
what empathic people do and that's how
it happens but in a trauma bonded
relationship and it's also about
cognitive dissonance right that we don't
like we don't like the tension of
inconsistency within ourselves so we're
always trying to make it fit and how do
we relieve that tension and make it fit
we justify then we can maintain the
status quo and human beings are also
homeostatic creatures we like the stat I
want to keep living here I want to keep
having this routine I don't want to find
a new place to put my toothbrush I don't
want to wake up in a new place even if
you kind of might want to over time many
survivors will say I don't even care if
I wake up in you know in a random place
as long as I'm not waking up here but
how much terribleness had to happen to
the person in that period of time and so
it's a person is just getting sort of
slowly distanced from their true nature
the longer a person is in a narcissistic
relationship the more they literally
have to abandon
themselves that's what I wanted to touch
on actually where you got to is you know
what is the impact of narcissistic abuse
like how because I think often we also
think like oh yeah well you should know
that you know he was a waste of time or
well look what look what she did to you
like you should should be aware like you
know it's it's almost like we assume
that it should logically make sense to
someone that they should be happy that
they're now away from this person but
often with people who've been with
narcissistic people especially
empathetic people they're still saying
well I hope they're okay I hope that
person's okay like I know they're
struggling what is the impact of someone
who's experience narcissistic abuse on a
deep scientific psychological level like
what what is actually going on for them
so what we're seeing pretty consistently
across and now I can say now thousands
of people we've looked at who have
experienced these relationships is
consistently we see a problematic level
of rumination regret anxiety sadness
self- blame
self-doubt a um a sense of
hypervigilance a a social anxiety that
comes from it and I want to put a pin in
that hypervigilant piece because I want
to come back to that in a moment an
interesting sort of mild dissociation
where a person has become dissociated
from their needs their wants and their
true nature because that has been so
consistently invalidated in this
relationship you see problems with sleep
you see you see the neurovative stuff we
see in depression like the changes in
appetite you see problems with
concentration what's interesting though
about survivors of narcissistic abuse is
that some of them may actually develop
clinical depression but most don't and
what I'll see is these are folks when
they are surrounded by healthy supports
therapists friends they're animated
they're Lely they don't seem like a
person who's under that heavy weight of
depression right so it is really the
when the relationship is present it's
taking its toll and it is why so many
survivors of narcissistic abuse are able
to roll up and be terrific parents
despite what's happening you see what
I'm saying because it's not a tra it's
not a mental illness it's a normative
reaction to this but even with that
hypervigilance there's a lot of of talk
about how nice survivors of narcissistic
abuse are we recently did an Instagram
live about this and it was just me sort
of yammering on about something I'd
heard that day I was really struck by
the strength it had in our community
because we talk about empathy empathy
empathy and survivors but one thing I'm
really seeing in my in I'm again so many
clients now at this point and other
people telling their stories is that the
empathy is almost functioning as a bit
of a trauma response like let me be as
kind as possible let me be as good as
possible POS and so it gets very
confusing for you like am I empathic am
I trying to survive and is my empathy
literally like this this trauma is a
survival response to try to like it's
almost like that Fawn response we talk
about that Fawn trauma response where I
am going to be what this this harmful
person needs me to be so I can win them
over and I will be okay right so and
then after that though there's shame why
was I so nice to this person they were
terrible to me like what's wrong with
with me and something I really try to
focus on with survivors is to say this
empathic responsive compassionate part
of you is beautiful we've got to heal
you and not lose that does that make
sense so this isn't an amputation this
is very much about we've got to keep
this here pull the shame off of it but
allow you to become more Discerning wow
and that's the trick in doing this work
with clients and for an individual who's
healing
themselves yeah wow I mean that analogy
you just gave of it's not an
amputation that's really interesting
because I think we would think that when
something's that toxic and abusive you
just want to cut it out get rid of it
move it away but but that's not what
you're saying no and and in fact you
know this is one of the things I really
take umage and I'm frustrated with Tik
Tock and and places where people are
giving Quicky
advices it's almost as though if you
have empathy for the narcissistic person
you're foolish and absolutely not they
are in their fashion there's there's
something not quite right there and
they're not even anywhere close to
addressing it my goal for folks is you
want to have empathy for them and Ian if
you don't want to I get that too for
what you've been through but if that
empathy for you them is something you
want to maintain yes I still need you to
disengage can you disengage from someone
and still empathize with them I believe
absolutely yes wow yeah and that's and
that's a hard balance for the people in
your life that love you to see that
because it can be really really
challenging to see someone you love feel
empathy to someone who's hurt them
really bad correct and it's also even
for yourself and this is where it can
bring up complicated emotions like pity
and guilt right and I try and again the
the work of healing is that pity is that
these mechanisms inside of you that
attend and attune and care about other
human beings are still working which we
want those to always remain
online but that you ensuring that you
pull yourself back from a harmful
situation the world needs you we need
your whole you not the version that you
had to create to remain in this toxic
relationship and that Balancing Act of
retaining empathy when you've been so
hurt by someone that's some of the
hardest work of healing I see people do
it every day and it's really quite
beautiful but a lot of them think have I
become a bad person because I'm I'm so
angry at this person and in fact a big
point bring up in the book and I'm going
to sort of Jump Ahead here is I actually
don't know that forgiveness always has a
place in these relationships and this is
a complicated conversation a lot of
people say forgiveness is all good and
I'm like slow the no no stop the presses
it's absolutely not and there's a whole
body of scientific research that
suggests that repeatedly forgiving a
repeat perpetrator actually harms the
forgiver there's no win in that and so
in what way in it it lowers their
well-being it can result in negative
mood symptoms
I mean of course you keep do you keep
doing this cuz I think forgiveness is is
a very personal decision but it's also
not a necessary one to heal and I think
that the message a lot of people get is
well if you're gon to if you don't
forgive them you're never going to heal
the hell you're not and I'm going to be
very Frank with you Jay there's some
narcissistic people who harmed me
immeasurably I don't forgive them and I
heal just fine it comes back to the you
can't just say the cliches to people and
hope they'll move on and be okay with it
and it can be really hard for that
individual to again either rise or lower
themselves down to either of those like
I know someone who's been through
something recently who's dealing with it
with empathy and I know for them their
friends and family are like how can you
be empathetic to this person and so
they're dealing with it that way or
you'd have the opposite in your case
where you're saying I actually don't
want to be empathetic towards them I
don't want to forgive them and your
family is saying well you should be but
I do I here's where it gets interesting
I empathize with them yes don't forgive
them right okay so you encourage
maintain those two states simultaneously
and I think that again one of the big
exercises in the book and I think it
might be one of the most important ones
is something I do have been doing with
clients for a long time which is the
multiple truths exercise because it's so
easy to say write all the terrible stuff
and I do tell people to record all the
terrible stuff but I said like let's
just be I want you to write everything
you feel for this person and a person
might write this is my mother I hate her
she had a tough backstory she was
terrible to us children she lives alone
I feel sorry for her I wish she would
change I know she won't change this is
literally the stream of Consciousness
for a Survivor you look at that and
right there it's manifest why survivors
are so confused but I absolutely believe
and not everyone does some people say I
have no empathy for this person but I
think it's quite possible and this is
where everyone say no that's not
possible if you empathize with them
you'd forgive them I say I understand
why they are the way they are I even
kind of understand why why they did what
they did what they did was
unforgivable and so I do I wish them no
ill will in fact if good things happen
to them so be it if bad things happen to
them so be it so there's a mild
indifference to it but it wouldn't be a
loss I mean I don't think again there's
so many forms of empathy and empathy is
its own complicated conversation but I
don't think that the not forgiving is a
lack of empathy because forgiveness
really reflects the harm it's done to us
and people say no no no it's a gift for
you too M yeah and I'm not giving them
this gift because I know they would do
it again if I let this person back in
they would do it
again I love that distinction between
empathy and forgiveness really important
to understand another word that a whole
chapter is dedicated to radical
acceptance Define that for us so that we
can understand how that's used because
again even looking at the difference
between empathy and forgiveness it's so
interesting to me just how subtle and
specific healing looks like as opposed
to this almost abstract Journey that's
often painted of healing being like you
move from this stage to here where it's
you know right yeah so so radical
acceptance is it's it's I have to say
there's one there's two probably two
essential ingredients to Healing you're
going to go through radical acceptance
you're going to go through grief and
then it's sort of people are going to go
on different paths but radical
acceptance is the absolute acceptance
that these patterns are not this
person's behavior is not going to change
at least not significantly enough to
make this into healthy relationship that
this Behavior affected you and as long
as you're in the purview of this
Behavior as long as I keep doing this to
you it will keep hurting you because
some people have said to me they say I
radically accepted they're not going to
change how come when they say these
things to me it still bothers me I'm
like because it's hurting you it's still
hurtful just because you understand why
it's coming out of them you you didn't
just become a piece of concrete like you
still have a soul and a heart and a
psyche that can be hurt so some people I
think thought radical acceptance was
like a magic pill that if I take this
the narcissistic person will never
bother me again and so all of that
partic but the key element of it is this
is not going to change and all decisions
from that point forward have to be made
on that basis by definition narcissism
is like I said a maladaptive personality
style but it's also a rigid personality
style the less healthy the personality
the less uh flexible that it is so very
healthy people have extraordinarily
flexible personality so the core of
mental health is flexibility it's almost
like physical health right a person
who's physically healthy has a lot of
flexibility in their muscles and Joints
a mentally healthy person has a lot of
flexibility in their psyche how do we
Define flexibility in our psyche I would
say it's it's an adaptability it is a
self-awareness and awareness of others
it's the ability to engage in novel
problem solving and not get stuck on a
singular solution it's the capacity to
be able to self-regulate and to self
sooth those are some of the things I'd
file into that sort of that flexibility
I'm not just saying it's like sure I'll
go anywhere you want I'm not saying it's
the it's the I'm game for anything but
when things when there's disappointment
there's the capacity to cope with it
it's a lot of coping a lot of resilience
is in that flexibility piece right that
is the core of Health I have worked with
people who have survived severe trauma
it's I and but the the ones who really
are standing in a different it's that
flexibility right and you think about it
if a tree is flexible it'll Bend With
the Wind if it's not it's going to snap
if the wind is too hard that would
really be the best sort of an analogy so
narcissism is this sort of maladaptive
rigid style there's very little
self-reflective capacity for the
narcissistic person very little
self-awareness for the narcissistic
person and very little awareness of the
people around them there is little
motivation to change most grandiose
narcissists subject objectively think of
themselves as great people if you ask
them they'll say I'm a great guy like
I'll help anyone I'll do anything for
anyone I'm I'm just a cool person they
believe it having just cheated on their
girlfriend two nights before that
they're able to maintain what almost
feels like a delusional self schema
those things are not amenable to change
and and again the nice thing about being
an old lady is you I've been doing this
so long that I've seen cases 15 20 years
and when I tell you that there's been
some interesting things they've learned
abouts in some cases they had
co-occurring conditions addiction is a
great example the addiction is managed
like they've been sober for many years
but that core personality they are
definitely not fit for an intimate
relationship at least not one where
someone's not going to get hurt so that
radical acceptance of the all of
it that moment is the penny drop moment
because now people see the path forward
very different this is no longer once
the kids grow up it's going to get
easier this is no no longer when he gets
the promotion things are going to get
better this is no longer when the
grandkids come my parents is going to
calm down this is this is it and I've
sat with many clients and said I'm going
to put something to you and I'm going to
say if I were to tell you this is it
this is never going to change how would
that affect the decisions you make most
clients will say can I tell you next
week because that's a lot to take in but
the challenge with radical acceptance
Jay is that I wish I could say it's h
and the light comes in the window you
know couple things is that radical
acceptance doesn't mean you're signing
off on this it doesn't mean you're
giving into it doesn't mean you're
agreeing with it it's not that it is
you're seeing it absolutely and
painfully clearly you know what happens
after you painfully and radically see
something the grief comes over you like
a tsunami because this is your mom the
mom you always thought one day we're
going to have the moment or your dad
where you're like one day they're going
to get me or the part partner we're like
we are going to grow old together and
it's going to be okay you're giving up a
narrative you're giving up a hope you're
giving up a life story you're giving up
things you held on to since you were a
child that's Devastation and I tell
folks now we're going to hold on tight
because grief is the most human of
experiences there's it's one of other
than life other than being born and
dying I don't know of any other
Universal Human Experience other than
grief all human beings lose
right we lose something or someone and
we all have a very similar experience
internally we we we grief and that's why
we have rituals right but ultimately we
go through a period of grief and I think
in this Modern Age we think we're better
than grief we think we can Soldier
through oh I can make my grief go like
this nobody gets to make their grief go
quicker right it grief is grief and that
grief actually leads People Jay to say
okay this feels terrible maybe I should
go back back into the relationship maybe
I made a mistake maybe I'm not seeing
this clearly maybe I'm the problem maybe
I'm the narcissist and so the holding on
during the
grief understanding what's happening
within you that the loss isn't just I'm
not talking to my partner anymore or I'm
distanced from my mother or I'm getting
a divorce but the grief is how much of
yourself you lost in this relationship
when people have to dive into that some
they say I'm kind of glad they're gone
but oh what what just happened to me
yeah yeah it's the grief of the life you
once had the thought you going to have
you thought you could have the grief of
the loss of the person that you lost
while you dissolved into this
relationship and and I've seen that from
the people I know not people I would say
these are people that I know in my life
but I've seen just that dissolving of
one's identity like completely clueless
even if they've disengaged to I don't
know who I am anymore and and I don't
know what to do anymore and I don't know
whether I was confident or whether I was
bubbly or whether I was extrovert or
introvert like I just don't know yep and
what's the first step when you're
feeling I don't know what where do you
where's where's the starting point I
tell folks we're taking you back to
basics and it's little things like I'll
say three times a day set a little timer
if you want I want you to just when that
little notification comes up want you to
stop and say how do I feel right now am
I cold am I hot am I hungry am I thirsty
like physiological functions figure out
where you want your thermostat and move
it and see like oh I I I'm feeling 60 68
this is nice people don't even know that
I'll say what do you want on your pizza
you'd be amazed how many people are
flumix by that question they say well he
always wanted what do you want on your
pizza and they'll say and they'll catch
themselves this isn't meant to be silly
this is how even these these sort of
loow hanging questions become a place
where a person is now being able to
recreate a subjective Focus they were
told for years you can't be hungry you
just ate you can't be cold I'm warm
you're not tired you got plenty of sleep
that's what they were told so when
that's done to you not just once but
hundreds if not thousands of times just
that initial process and part of what I
write about in the book is just you keep
reorienting to yourself and you ask
yourself a few times a day like what's
the
I'm actually feeling a little bit cold
and that's okay even if everyone else
has a bathing suit on it's okay wow it's
just bringing that person back into
their body into their body because
that's our most physical tangible way of
knowing how we feel and because we've
gone so far away from understanding how
we feel that's going to be the easiest
way same with what do you want in your
pizza it sounds silly but it's not it's
well let's get these basic decisions
right let's get these really amateur
decisions right rather than thinking who
am I what is the goal of my life like
but you work up to that and when you ask
people who am I like I don't know I'll
say what what do you stand for tell me
something that's important to you and
they will really say no I've never
thought in these levels I mean your
focus for so many people's meaning and
purpose right to me that's when we're
getting into the latter stages of really
this you know this individuation and
this autonomy of what is Meaningful to
you what is purposeful I remember a
client once saying to me we're talking
about meaning of purpose and she said
are you kidding me what's meaningful and
purposeful she said I just want to get
to a day where I don't think about them
and I said great then that's that's
where it is right now and over time
we're going to build on that but that
can feel very Out Of Reach for people
like in fact in my healing program this
month it's it's going to be meaning and
purpose month and even I as I construct
that curriculum I'm realizing like I
want I a lot of the usual conversation
about meaning and purpose I'm almost
having to have the conversation point
you know point two of what it means when
you're
going through this and someone who's a
survivor of narcissistic abuse but then
it's also the willingness to turn to
trusted others I'm going to give you a
silly example of something that happened
today I had a very problematic call
today right with someone and I had to
put the call on speaker because someone
was helping me with something in the
house and I had to be I she was doing
her work quietly but it wasn't a
confidential call it was it was a
business thing and the call went
terribly the person was very
disrespectful very dismissive and I've
been through narcissistic abuse in many
ways and shapes and forms in my life so
my first tendency was am I being too
sensitive am I being too demanding am I
being ridiculous that's what I was
thinking and at one point the lady who
was help helping me out she kind of
looked at me rolled her eyes I rolled my
eyes and she looked back at me and she
said yeah and I got off the phone and
the person who was helping with
something else she had nothing to do
with this call and I closed my eyes and
the person said the person in the room
with me said yeesh that was absolutely
ridiculous and I looked at her and I
said say more and she said I can't
believe how dismissive that person was
she didn't even do the basic and Jay I
felt whole because my inner experience
which I still doubt after all these
years and I've come a long way but my
inner experience this person outside of
me who I know cares about me said it
wasn't okay how she talked to you and
each time that happens we have a micro
adjustment of that was on point I I read
that situation correctly and then I was
emboldened to make a stronger decision
and decide not to go into to do what
this person was asking me to do was like
a speaking thing and I'm like no I don't
want to do that but that other person's
presence yeah having that safe space and
this is so a big part of the healing
then becomes building up safe validating
anti-gas lights as I call them in your
life people who see you and say that
wasn't okay or are you okay or that was
disrespectful they did not speak nicely
to you whatever it is most survivors are
so used to being spoken to badly they're
like well business as usual but to have
that this is why people go into therapy
and so then I was able to take the much
Bolder leap of no I'm actually going to
end up going to the other meeting but
thanks I don't know that I would have
had that kind of Courage this is what
healing is you build up those people
even if it's one or two people giving
yourself permission
to to put I call it the 9010 inversion
most of us put 90% of ourselves into our
most toxic relationships and 10% into
the giving reciprocal loving ones that
run easily I said flip the math I want
90% into those good relationships and
phone it into the toxic ones yeah that's
so true and and it's it's interesting
because I think that kind of answers the
next question I was going to ask but
this idea of I think when someone's
going through that healing Journey
they're almost oscillating between like
well to I know myself again oh I don't
know who I am anymore I feel like I know
what I want on pizza oh my gosh I have
no idea you know so I feel like they go
through this what I I think that partly
answers that you need these people in
your life who are constantly reminding
you and as you said anti-gas lighting
you what else can someone do when
they're kind of oscillating between that
I think I'm making progress I'm not sure
anymore I think I'm making progress I'm
lost again how do you what do you find
in that period embrace the oscillation
right because it is it's calibration
right you're you're sort of it's like a
child wobbly on their feet when they're
learning to walk you're you're learning
this again and so that wobbliness is you
it's the it's their internalized voice
and your individuated self kind of
having a little bit of an argument and
sort of view that indiv that part of you
that's trying to individuate like say
you got this and that's an old voice and
that old we can just sort of say you
know you're you're actually not welcome
here anymore like you could just step
out thank you and the but it's the
individuated voice and the internalized
the narcissistic internalized or the
gaslighted internalized voice and
they're they're going they're still
fighting it out and we feel as though am
I aren't I just like today anyone
watching that call I mean but said this
was not okay and the the person it was
almost like the emperor not wearing any
clothes right that this person was
saying this Emperor is naked go away
Romany go away and so I think that that
initially we need those voices a lot
more and there'll still be times when we
we will T because I think there's
certain trigger situations that kind of
remain pretty consistent for survivors
for a long long time we do hold it
internally and we were told too Jay many
survivors are told they're up if they
want to achieve a goal do you really
think you're going to pull that off like
I think you're reaching a little too
high so they were minimized and
trivialized for wanting to do something
that they still hear that inner voice of
don't be ridiculous you're never going
to be able to do that and they make that
voice their own instead of trying to
learn like that kind of that was an
unwanted visitor so let's see if you can
sort of treat it that way and we can
even think about if you look at trauma
Theory we talk about the protector
persecutor kind of a model that the
persecuting voice in a strange way is
doing this really messed up way of
keeping you safe because it's telling
you like in essence it it's the that
persecuting voice is that voice is
telling you you're going to fail so you
don't try and when you were in the
narcissistic relationship and you failed
they would humiliate and shame you right
or tell you it was going to happen but
if you can say that okay I see what
you're trying to do persecuting Bo I'll
be fine if this doesn't go well because
it'll be on my terms and if you really
have done radical acceptance even when
the narcissistic person rolls their eyes
and says oh big surprise you have to
keep coming back to this is a them thing
this is not a me thing not saying it
doesn't hurt this is a carousel that
really takes a toll on people but it can
be done but that oscillation starts to
become a little less oscillate the more
people have these validating voices
people build up what we call efficacy
the the idea that they're able to do
something right so the first time we
able we're able to do something
successfully from make a cake or change
the oil in our car uh use a drill and
put something in the wall the that what
it does to the psyche is remarkable so I
tell survivors keep keep trying new
things because the more efficacy you
build that also helps Foster
individuation so I'm like grab the drill
if you put a few holes in the wall but
the picture goes up you're going to feel
really good about the picture going up
try to make the difficult sule you may
burn a few but when it's made great I
did try to do this with bread I still
have not successfully raised a loaf of
bread so it's my last neurotic wound but
I think that when we find some people
learn and other people do all kinds of
interesting things I see like some folks
I've worked with learned languages and
they learned how to play a musical
instrument and but they'll say this
feels so good because back in the day I
would have been made fun of for this
those who are able to get out will say
it's so interesting to do this and that
confidence starts jumping into other
areas of their life yeah I mean it's
really a rehabilitation of right self
identity self-worth self-confidence self
acceptance you're almost teaching
yourself to do things again in order to
feel whole right absolutely but you know
what you it's interesting see use
rebuild for a lot of people it's a build
because if this happened to them in
childhood their individuated identity
never got to form at all wow so this is
a build yeah it's a build it's from
scratch Dr Romy this is you know so
informative I I'm thinking of so many
people right now who I know are going to
benefit from our conversation today
because it's almost like I feel like the
more and more I'm speaking to people the
more and more I hear about people de
with this in their lives but I want to
ask you one last question and it's this
idea of can going back to that empathy
point that forgiveness point for the
person who's healing from the
narcissistic person for them can the
narcissistic person ever
heal so it's a listen I I do believe in
human potentiality I'm I'm probably
never going to bet on the psychopathic
or narcissistic horse in the race but
might might they at least come in the
top five maybe and what I mean by that
is part of this is an understanding the
origins of narcissism right some
narcissistic folks their personality
development was very much shaped by
adversity trauma neglect loss chaos
attachment moons
right that
subgroup if they are willing humbly to
engage into the work of growth they do
excellent trauma informed worth work
with a with a
therapist and then get beyond the trauma
informed work and are able to reflect on
how they they're able to create that
schema of how they're they affect others
right to pull it's almost like you're
pulling away um the you're pulling open
Gates and say there's people out there
see this thing you're doing they're
being affected and it it's really
opening the schema out of how they're
desperately trying to protect themselves
to how other people are getting hurt and
I have it's interesting I I work with a
narcissistic client once for many many
years and I I I sort of cut back my
practice and I've had one or two of them
Reach back like oh can I work with you
I'm like you know I've really kind of
shut up shot but they you know what they
said though one one in particular said I
am I'm screaming at my girlfriend and I
know it's not okay now he's still
screaming at her not so good but he does
know he's like I know it's not okay and
she may leave me and I probably deserve
it I and he's like you taught me that
wow he's still screaming
on that part but humility is such a big
part of this right and and the I
honestly think the antidote to
narcissism is humility and humility
means we're not perfect we have flaws
and it and we are and it's not all a
fantasy and that we're and honestly the
hardest thing for a narcissistic person
to accept is that they're ordinary we
you're ordinary I'm ordinary everyone in
this room is ordinary and we're
simultaneously special but we're just
people right and so if that for them not
to be the most special person means
removing the camp off the volcano which
is terrifying for them in if in a way
they're almost terrified by their own
rage you need one very skilled therapist
to guide someone through that Journey
you know and so and they have to keep
showing up and for about almost 60 to
70% of narcissistic folks drop out of
therapy prematurely and it usually
happens when the rubber meets the road
and the work starts getting really
vulnerable that's when I've lost clients
and so we have to go very very gently
into that forest with them and but
unfortunately if we go too gently and we
never get there then we're sort of doing
a lot of Naval gazing so it's just
finding that kind of balance and and and
you know they can do a lot of spiritual
bypassing that kind of stuff like you
you can't just you can't aphorism your
way through this you're G to have to do
this painful work face up to that
vulnerability that's I I've seen some
narcissistic people make a little bit of
progress but the way I put it is this
There's Hope for them to make some
progress but the harm they've usually
done to another person usually it's not
super it's not really that fixable and
so many people will say and a fear of a
lot of people in narcissistic
relationships is what if they change for
the next person they're not going to
change for the next person right what if
they what if it all changes overnight
this is not an overnight this is years
and years years and years of committed
work to this like I said I've seen micro
changes and not enough to have probably
consistently affected other people's
relationships and they still personality
is like a rubber band we can pull it out
so all of a sudden Romany the introvert
could become Romney the extrovert for
one night only and then when we get home
the rubber band will go back to its side
the narcissistic person on a good day
with a good therapist might get
stretched out a little bit seem a little
bit more tuned aware do some empathic
adjacent things but as soon as the first
time stress comes into the picture
rubber band goes back to its original
size yeah that's what I was going to ask
you as as the last question that came
from that was what would you say to
someone who says I'll wait for them to
change you then you're waiting for a bus
that's never going to come you're
waiting for a submarine to show up at a
bus stop basically and and in the
process it's not even just as that may
not come you will lose yourself in the
process and to me that sort of Soul
death that sort of loss of self is it's
it's just not okay and and listen you
and I both know this cultur we both come
from a culture where remaining in a
marriage no matter what the conditions
are is very much a sort of a symptom of
the culture and this is where I've
probably seen it most pointedly of
people who really some folks would find
a way whether through their spirituality
or other relationships with their
children or others in their Community to
sort of create a meaningful space
outside of that problem atic
relationship but others it was like
watching a fruit die on the vine and
it's to me one of the most horrific
things to witness is the potential of a
human being being lost to this to this
kind of invalidation and I shudder to
think how much potential creative
potential um knowledge wisdom that
people have held back because it
invalidated this book is a love story to
every Survivor and saying to them please
bring we need you we we need all of your
gifts in this world because you have so
many listen the fact that you endured
this relationship is already a gift but
so all the stuff you kept behind the
gate open those Gates so we can see all
this beautiful stuff that you could
bring into the world Dr Romany thank you
so much the book is called it's not you
identifying and healing from
narcissistic people it's available right
now go and grab your copy today we have
just touched on the tip of the iceberg
of the insights and the knowledge that's
within this book please go grab your
copy and if you don't already follow Dr
Rony on Instagram and YouTube make sure
you go and subscribe and follow and I
want to see what resonates with you from
this conversation so tag both of us I'd
love to see if you've been affected by
any of this if you know a friend or
family members benefiting from the book
I'd love to see your takeaways and Dr
Ramy thank you so much again for this
very thoughtful very very insightful
conversation and I love your
step-by-step approach and also the
ability to Define and clarify things so
well for us so I always feel better
prepared to talk to people even who may
mention it to me friends family members
whatever may happen and kind of guide
them in the right direction towards a
therapist or the support that they need
so thank you so much thank you Jay thank
you yeah thank you if you love this
episode you'll enjoy my interview with
Dr Julie Smith on unblocking negative
emotions and how to embrace difficult
feelings you've just got to be motivated
every day and if you're not then what
are you doing and and actually humans
don't work that way motivation you have
to treat it like any other emotion some
days it will be there some days it won't
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