Dan and Joe Get Critical! Episode 1 Linda Nochlin's "Why have there been no great women artists?"
Summary
TLDRIn this video, Dan and Joe discuss Linda Nochlin's influential 1971 essay, 'Why Have There Been No Great Women Artists?' They explore how Nochlin challenges the exclusion of women from art institutions and critiques the societal barriers preventing women from achieving artistic greatness. The conversation highlights how women's rights, though improved, still face resistance and cultural biases. The hosts reflect on the broader struggles for equality and the complexities of changing societal attitudes. They emphasize the importance of raising awareness and continuing to challenge outdated norms to achieve true equality.
Takeaways
- 🖼️ Linda Nochlin's 1971 essay 'Why Have There Been No Great Women Artists?' challenged the male-dominated narrative in art history.
- 📚 Nochlin argues that society, not a lack of talent, barred women from accessing the necessary institutions and education to become 'great' artists.
- 🎨 Great artists are often associated with formal training, which women were historically excluded from, preventing their artistic development.
- 🚫 Women were denied access to critical training opportunities, such as studying nude models, which was essential for mastering certain art forms.
- 👩🎨 Despite societal barriers, women excelled in other art forms like ballet, singing, writing, and poetry, supporting Nochlin's claim that the issue lies in restricted access, not talent.
- 👩🏫 Nochlin's essay highlights the need for intentional societal changes to provide equal opportunities for women in the arts.
- ⚖️ The discussion draws parallels between the struggle for women's rights and other social justice issues, noting that legal changes alone don't eliminate deeply ingrained biases.
- 💡 The hosts discuss how fear of change, competition, and loss of power have historically driven resistance to women's equality.
- 🖋️ The essay is considered foundational in both women's studies and art history, bridging the gap between gender equality and artistic recognition.
- 🌍 While progress has been made since Nochlin's essay, the conversation emphasizes that there are still areas, both in the U.S. and globally, where women do not have equal access to artistic careers.
Q & A
Who is Linda Nochlin, and what is the significance of her 1971 essay?
-Linda Nochlin was an American art historian, and her 1971 essay 'Why Have There Been No Great Women Artists?' challenged the traditional 'great man' theory of art history. It became a foundational text in both art history and feminist studies, arguing that societal barriers, not women's lack of talent, were responsible for the absence of notable women artists in history.
What societal barriers does Nochlin identify as preventing women from becoming great artists?
-Nochlin points out that women were historically excluded from the institutions necessary to develop artistic talent, such as schools, apprenticeships, and access to life-drawing classes that included nude models. Without this education, it was nearly impossible for women to master the skills required to achieve greatness in art.
How does Nochlin's essay challenge traditional feminist responses to the question of why there have been no great women artists?
-Nochlin critiques the typical feminist response of trying to list examples of great women artists, arguing that this misses the point. Instead, she suggests that the real question should be why society has prevented women from accessing the same opportunities and institutions that foster greatness in art.
What examples of artistic fields where women have made notable progress does Nochlin mention, and how do they support her argument?
-Nochlin highlights ballet, singing, writing, and poetry as areas where women have historically excelled. These fields often had fewer institutional barriers, supporting her argument that it was societal restrictions, not inherent ability, that prevented women from achieving greatness in visual arts.
What is the broader message of Nochlin's essay regarding societal change?
-Nochlin calls for intentional efforts to change societal norms to be more inclusive. She emphasizes the need to raise awareness of the institutional and cultural barriers that have historically hindered women’s participation in fields like art, encouraging society to dismantle these barriers.
What analogy does the discussion in the transcript draw between women's rights and other forms of social inequality?
-The discussion draws a parallel between the fight for women’s rights and other forms of social inequality, like racial tensions. It suggests that, much like with racism, legal changes may occur, but societal attitudes and private institutions often lag behind, continuing to perpetuate inequality.
What are the challenges associated with changing societal attitudes towards gender equality, according to the transcript?
-The transcript highlights the difficulty of changing deeply ingrained societal attitudes, noting that while legal changes, such as constitutional amendments, are important, they don’t always translate into changes in behavior or attitudes. Social change requires effort beyond legal reform, including addressing fears and prejudices.
How does the transcript suggest that fear plays a role in resistance to women's rights?
-The transcript suggests that fear, particularly fear of losing status or power, is a driving force behind resistance to women's rights. It parallels this fear with resistance to racial equality, positing that some men fear women gaining equal standing in society might threaten their own positions.
What does the transcript say about the complexity of social change, especially in terms of gender equality?
-The transcript acknowledges that social change is complex and often slow. While improvements have been made since Nochlin's essay was published, there are still areas where gender inequality persists, both in the U.S. and globally. It points out that social roles are deeply embedded in culture, making them harder to change than legal structures.
What conclusion do the speakers in the transcript reach regarding Nochlin's essay and its relevance today?
-The speakers conclude that Nochlin’s essay is still relevant today because it highlights ongoing issues with gender inequality, particularly in the arts. While progress has been made since the 1970s, they argue that raising awareness and challenging outdated societal norms remains necessary to achieve true equality.
Outlines
🎨 Introduction to Linda Nochlin's Essay on Women Artists
Dan and Joe introduce Linda Nochlin's influential essay 'Why Have There Been No Great Women Artists?' published in 1971. They provide historical context, discussing the second wave of feminism and the lack of women in art institutions at the time. Nochlin challenges the 'great man' theory of art history, arguing that societal barriers, not talent, kept women from becoming recognized artists. This essay sparked significant discussions in feminist art history, showing how societal norms limited women's access to education and artistic opportunities.
🏛️ Women’s Exclusion from Artistic Institutions
Nochlin's essay examines how societal norms excluded women from institutions critical to artistic development. The notion of a 'lone genius' artist is a myth since great artists often emerged from established art schools and mentorships—spaces where women were historically barred. For example, women were denied the opportunity to study nude models, a crucial skill for mastering the human form. This systemic exclusion led to a lack of 'great' women artists, not because of a lack of talent but because women were denied the necessary training and opportunities.
📜 Legal Equality Versus Societal Attitudes
Dan and Joe reflect on the broader issue of women's rights, noting that legal victories, like the right to vote, do not necessarily change entrenched societal attitudes. They compare this to other struggles for equality, such as racial issues, and argue that private institutions and societal beliefs play a significant role in maintaining inequality. While legal changes are essential, real progress requires shifts in cultural mindsets, which are harder to achieve and often resistant to change.
⚖️ The Challenge of Changing Cultural Norms
The conversation turns to the difficulty of changing deep-seated societal attitudes. They discuss historical examples, such as the French Revolution and oppressive policies against indigenous cultures, to illustrate how governments have tried to reshape societal values—often with inhumane methods. Dan and Joe argue that opposition to women's rights, like fear of job competition, stems from fear of change. This resistance to women's advancement is paralleled in racial and cultural tensions, revealing a broader pattern of fear and conservative thinking resisting societal progress.
🎭 Art, Gender, and Societal Barriers
Joe highlights the personal nature of art and how it is more than a career—it's a therapeutic and expressive outlet. The fact that women were barred from something so personal as artistic expression shows the extent of inequality. The discussion draws parallels between women fighting for equal opportunities in art and in broader society, noting that even today, women face obstacles in gaining the same recognition or opportunities as men. The conversation also touches on the recent political climate, where gender barriers still exist in positions of power like the presidency.
🚪 Progress and the Need for Ongoing Change
Dan and Joe conclude by acknowledging the progress made since Nochlin's essay but recognize that much work remains. Societal progress ebbs and flows, with resistance to change persisting in certain parts of society. They discuss the role of awareness and self-reflection in continuing to challenge patriarchal attitudes, noting that both men and women can uphold rigid gender roles. While there are no easy solutions, they emphasize the importance of raising awareness, holding oneself accountable, and using platforms like YouTube to promote social progress.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Linda Nochlin
💡Great Man Theory
💡Second Wave Feminism
💡Institutional Barriers
💡Artistic Genius
💡Feminism in Academia
💡Nude Models
💡Patriarchy
💡Social Norms
💡Raising Awareness
Highlights
Linda Nochlin's 1971 essay 'Why Have There Been No Great Women Artists?' was a challenge to the 'great man theory' in art history.
The essay emerged during the second wave of feminism and questioned why women hadn't been given equal footing in the art world.
Nochlin argues that the issue wasn't women's capability, but the societal barriers that excluded them from artistic institutions.
Women were historically barred from institutions like art schools and apprenticeships, making it impossible for them to develop their talents.
One key example is that women were denied access to studying nude models, an essential practice for mastering the human form in art.
Nochlin's conclusion is that society must work actively to change norms and provide equal opportunities for women artists.
This inequality is reflected not only in the art world but across different spheres where women struggle for representation and equality.
The essay emphasizes that legal equality, while important, does not necessarily translate into social or institutional equality.
Social attitudes and cultural barriers are harder to change than legal structures, but they are essential for true equality.
The discussion highlights how fear of losing status or privilege has historically motivated resistance to women's rights.
The struggle for women's equality continues today, with certain parts of the world and institutions still resistant to change.
Art is not just a career but a personal and therapeutic outlet, and barring women from it impacts their personal expression.
The podcast discusses how these gender issues are reflected in broader societal debates, like women in politics.
There's an acknowledgment that while progress has been made since Nochlin's time, there's still work to be done for true gender equality.
The discussion concludes by emphasizing personal responsibility in raising awareness and challenging outdated attitudes toward gender roles.
Transcripts
hey I'm Dan and I'm here with Joe today
to talk about the essay why have there
been no great women artists by Linda and
Oakland we'll give some quick background
to put her work into context then we'll
do a breakdown of her arguments and
finish with a short discussion
afterwards to survey what she's brought
to the its intellectual table linden
Oakland was an American art historian
she was born in 1931 and passed away in
2017 when her academic work started art
history of still following a version of
the great man theory her 1971 essay why
have there been no great women artists
was an open challenge to this way of
thinking and was deeply influential to
the field this essay came at a time when
the second wave of feminism was
flourishing within three years we'd see
both title nine and the women's
educational Equality Act passed while
feminism had grown popular with Lehman
since the early 60s it had yet to
penetrate into academia San Diego State
University was the first to offer wound
studies program in 1970 with 11 courses
almost 50 years later feminism has
bloomed in academia but just by
empirical evidence from numerous fields
linden Oakland begins the essay by
pointing out that the question subtly
frames the debate in such a way that a
typical feminist would get distracted
trying to bring up examples examples are
admittedly few and no Klan uses us as a
pivot to show how the question is unfair
to women artists through the ages the
question should really be lied to
society not allow women to access the
institutions that prepare great artists
why does society not allow a woman
artist equal footing first she examines
what kinds of institutions make great
artists we tend to think of great
artists as being lone geniuses who were
gifted at birth but even for those lone
geniuses that gift was fostered most
great artists came from well-known
schools of art their art comes from a
specific style philosophy and type of
training you can clearly trace their
influences because they had an artistic
institution nurturing their ability
historically women were simply not
allowed into the
institutions great artists must first
learn the rules of art in order to
experiment outside of those rules this
leads to new clins hypothesis that calls
for this lack of great women artists is
that women were barred from the
institutions women were never allowed it
to schools apprenticeships and other
important ways to gain expertise in some
art forms the fact that women artists
made notable progress in ballet singing
writing and poetry supports Nolan's
hypothesis society itself was preventing
women from becoming masters and other
arts for example women were not
permitted to study nude models through
much of the 1800s as expert artists will
attest being able to replicate the human
form is a key milestone for a fledgling
artist given that they were denied this
cornerstone of artistic education
expecting greatness is unreasonable no
klain's conclusion is that we must make
intentional efforts to change societal
norms to be more inclusive we should
raise awareness to these societal
barriers and help tear them down this
strategy has already borne fruit we see
many gifted women artists today the
problem was never female artists it was
the ambient culture that denied women
access to the institution's necessary to
earn greatness for the next part of the
essay we were just going to talk a
little bit about no clins ideas and just
kind of what what perhaps we can take
away from this and include in society or
you know in our values today what really
struck me is that we think of women's
rights is something that's like mostly
like done you know it's like a solved
problem yeah yeah it's it's kind of like
how we how we think about like racism in
this country but obviously ended in 1970
yeah oh yeah we're done we finish this
you know it's a good ol constitutional
amendment and we're good to go but but
we start to see that that people's
attitudes and people's sort of closed
mindedness is really baked into some
parts of the country and some in some
parts of people's psyche and the laws
don't stop that and so like her essay
really shows how women have had to fight
for fight against many different
barriers in their in their struggle for
equality yeah I would agree based on my
like my reading into history I think you
can kind of see this pattern in
different struggles for equality that
you can get legal equality but most
probably most aspects of life are not
you know with the law or with legal
structures it's with private
institutions and they for the most part
can do what they want yeah most most of
life doesn't happen inside of courtroom
I think that's that's the only problem
with with these like the amendments are
a good idea you know obviously they
should be in place but but working on
people's individual like attitudes and
like kind of changing society on a
fundamental level it's a lot harder for
him changing you know the rules and
Simmel on some old piece of paper right
I mean I don't think there is a good way
of doing that without I mean the only
examples I'm aware of where governments
have big changes to culture especially
rapidly or I mean involved a lot of very
inhumane treatments I mean we could talk
for a long time about the French
Revolution but well I mean you can look
at the French Revolution you can look at
how China or I mean I don't want to say
this is just China but say China's
treatment of like the Weger people or
other ethnic minorities we've certainly
done similar with like I forget the name
of the practice but you know what the
Native Americans we take their children
and put them in Western schools they
lose their inherited languages oh yeah
this is a lot of their culture they've
done similar in Australia they've done
similar in Canada it's interesting
because the common thread that really
binds all of those different different
problems together or I mean problematic
actions
together is that it's you see people who
use fear of either you know of another
culture or fear of and and I mean I
think the reason why we see a lot of
fight against women's rights is because
it's fear of a woman's gonna take my job
Oh fear of women are gonna become more
important in society than I am and I
think a lot of the racial tensions and
you know obviously it's more complicated
than this but it's just the idea it's
that fear of the unknown and sometimes
it's fear of the unknown or of a
different culture but sometimes it's
fear of the unknown of like what's gonna
happen to my society if women I have as
much say-so as I do and and so it's
you're kind of fighting against time and
people is kind of consuming you know
maybe conservative or or you know
outdated ways of thinking where because
a lot of this comes from the idea that
women don't have something to bring to
the table and we know from societies
from society today many amazing women
artists but I think another aspect of
this essay that really has stuck out to
me is the fact that like this this isn't
really like women fighting for a major
right like voting or equal opportunity
to to you know to work in a way this is
similar to the similar to find equal
opportunity to work because if men and
women artists can't get the same job
equally then that's a problem but it's
but what sticks up to me more is that is
the fact that we we usually think of art
as like a hobby something that you do to
express yourself something you do for
fun and and art is honestly it's it's
therapeutic it's you know so art is
something that is very is a very very
personal thing and to see women barred
from such a personal you know eye
opening or self self-fulfilling sort of
pastime is just you know that really
really opened my eyes because as a man
you know we take it for granted that I
can be anything from a president to
[Music]
to a popper painter you know if I want
but to see that especially because the
later latest political things that have
happened
Oh a woman doesn't have an equal shake
at being president a woman doesn't have
you know and obviously there's a lot
more that happened in the election but
but it's so we don't want to yeah that's
really over simplify here but I do think
it was a factor and I think you'd agree
with that yeah yeah it's just in a lot
of ways this country isn't ready to give
women in equal standing in in everything
and and you know maybe times have
changed from when Miss uh from when
missin Oakland wrote the essay so right
now but you know I'm I'm sure that
there's still some parts of the country
still some parts of the world that women
don't get an equal shake at being an
artist the same way that me or you would
you know there's no so that was really
eye-opening just the fact the fact that
you have to fight for equality just to
participate in you know in a hobby and a
therapeutic exercise you know because
obviously for them most people art
doesn't turn into a career but it's just
it was just really you know it'd be like
having to fight for equal rights to like
to walk your dog it's just um it just
really opened my eyes that that's a very
er woman I've had to fight against so
really awesome I say that you know that
she that she really brought this idea
into the it's a little late
yeah I know I don't think you could I
don't think he can make a well supported
claim that things have not improved
since 1970 certainly there's things that
still need to improve but I think
broadly speaking things are better in
terms of equality in most ways and you
know we're seeing sort of pushback now I
mean it's it's it's complicated
yeah well history kind of is like a tide
it it ebbs and and flows you know and
and because I know I've met you know we
all know guys that I have close-minded
ideas and so there's there's obviously
still some work that needs to be done
with raising awareness to women's issues
and
it's not just men either the plenty of
women who kind of participate in what we
called patriarchy right that's true who
wants it very rigidly in for social
roles for women and also for men it's
yeah it's I mean it's very complicated
they don't know that there's an easy
answer here there's no easy answer but
but it is it is interesting to see that
we even with just the idea of like
writing down an essay writing down your
thoughts and just kind of having your
critiques I mean I know this essay is a
foundational essay for any any person
that is interested in women's studies or
art history this is kind of like a
marriage of those two like important
ideas so it's I I think that's that's
most of and it always sucks that
progressive people always have to fall
back in the well we've done our job
we've raised awareness to this issue but
you know I think some sense that's all
you can do is kind of like research it
for yourself
maybe self reflect on this and sort of
maybe things that you've done wrong or
or attitudes that you hold but I think
of the data it's really all you control
right so as long as you hold yourself
and the people that you spend your time
with accountable and if you can do your
own forms of art where you help raise
awareness to to things like these sort
of problems to even strangers and post
some stuff on YouTube well well I guess
that's a pretty good place for us to
wrap up yeah I'd say so
all right well definitely thank you for
joining us for our uh for our first
friend an NGO get critical yeah yeah
it's um we plan to do a lot more things
like this thanks for joining us and I
hope you check out our stuff in the
future
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