Cliffe Debates An Atheist On God’s Existence (FULL DEBATE)
Summary
TLDRThe video features a debate between an atheist and a believer, addressing fundamental questions about the existence of God. The atheist questions the need for a creator, citing evolution and the concept of existence without a cause. The believer responds by presenting arguments for God’s existence, such as the need for a cause for the universe, the presence of moral absolutes, and rationality. The discussion explores differing views on morality, evolution, and rationality, ultimately questioning whether belief in God or necessity best explains human existence and moral values.
Takeaways
- 😀 The speaker starts by explaining their atheism and lack of belief in higher powers, including the Bible.
- 🤔 The first evidence presented for the existence of God is the order and design in the universe, which suggests intelligence.
- 🧬 The speaker acknowledges belief in evolution, but questions where the creative mechanism in evolution comes from.
- 🌌 The Big Bang is discussed, with the claim that everything with a beginning must have a cause, leading to the argument for a creator (God).
- 🔄 The speaker explains that God doesn't have a cause or a beginning, as God is eternal and outside the rules of causality.
- 🗡️ Moral absolutes are presented as evidence for the existence of a creator, as values like the wrongness of murder are argued to come from God.
- 📜 The idea that human value and purpose comes from a creator is used to refute relativism in moral values.
- 🧠 The rational mind is argued to come from a rational source, not from non-rational matter, implying the existence of a rational creator.
- 🤷 The other participant in the conversation disagrees, suggesting that morality and rationality can arise from evolutionary necessity, without a higher power.
- 📖 The discussion concludes by questioning whether societal norms can define morality, with the speaker advocating for God's character as the ultimate source of moral truth.
Q & A
What is the first piece of evidence presented for the existence of God?
-The first piece of evidence is that order and design do not come out of chaos by chance. Order and design suggest the existence of an intelligent mind.
How does the speaker challenge the concept of evolution as a creative mechanism?
-The speaker questions the creative mechanism in evolution, asking how something can come from nothing, implying that evolution alone does not explain the origin of life.
What is the speaker's belief about the origin of the universe?
-The speaker believes that before the Big Bang, there was nothing, and that the Big Bang had a cause. The speaker argues that the most reasonable cause is an intelligent mind or God.
Why does the speaker reject the idea of God having a cause?
-The speaker explains that God is eternal, without a beginning or end, and therefore does not require a cause. The concept of God having a beginning is viewed as idolatry.
How does the speaker address the question of existence without a creator?
-The speaker argues that existence itself cannot come from non-existence, but God, being eternal, does not come from anything and does not have a cause.
What is the argument regarding moral absolutes and their connection to God?
-The speaker argues that moral absolutes, such as the wrongness of murder, point to the existence of a creator who gives humans innate value. Without a creator, moral values would be relative.
How does the speaker argue that rationality points to the existence of God?
-The speaker claims that rational minds must come from a rational being, such as God, because rationality cannot come from non-rational matter like inanimate objects or energy.
How does the other person in the conversation explain morality from an evolutionary perspective?
-The other person explains morality as a survival mechanism, where actions like murder within a tribe would reduce the tribe's ability to survive by losing a member or causing internal conflict.
What is the speaker's response to the argument that morality is a survival mechanism?
-The speaker challenges this by saying that if morality were simply a survival mechanism, then actions like murder could be justified if they benefited a tribe. The speaker argues that objective morality comes from God, not just social constructs.
Why does the speaker believe that objective morality cannot come from social or tribal rules?
-The speaker argues that if morality were based solely on tribal or social rules, then actions like murder could be considered 'good' if approved by the tribe. However, the speaker believes that objective morality is defined by God's just character, regardless of societal norms.
Outlines
🧠 Discussion on Atheism and the Origin of Order
The speaker opens by stating their lifelong atheism and lack of faith in any higher power, specifically mentioning disbelief in the Bible as a source of truth. They ask for evidence outside of scripture. The conversation shifts to discussing the concept of order and design in the universe, suggesting that it points to an intelligent creator rather than chaos. A debate arises regarding the process of evolution and the origins of life, with the speaker questioning the creative mechanism behind evolution, leading to a discussion about the Big Bang, Einstein's views, and the philosophical idea that everything with a beginning must have a cause. The speaker concludes that it is more logical to believe that an intelligent mind (God) caused the universe rather than nothing causing it.
🔍 The Cause of the Universe and Moral Absolutes
This section dives deeper into the philosophical argument about the cause of the universe. The speaker asserts that God, being eternal, has no beginning and therefore does not need a cause. The conversation moves to the topic of existence and whether it needs a cause, contrasting the idea of God’s eternity with the finite nature of the universe and human beings. Additionally, the speaker introduces moral absolutes, arguing that actions such as murder are inherently wrong due to the value of human life, which is given by a creator. Without a creator, the speaker claims, morality would be relative, but with God, moral values are objective and universal.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡atheist
💡evolution
💡primordial soup
💡Big Bang
💡pantheism
💡eternal
💡moral absolutes
💡rationality
💡survival of the fittest
💡objective morality
💡necessity
Highlights
The speaker mentions being an atheist and never having faith in a higher power or the Bible.
The first piece of evidence for God's existence, according to the speaker, is that order and design don't arise from chaos by chance.
The speaker believes in evolution but questions where the creative mechanism in evolution comes from.
The concept of the Big Bang is discussed, with the speaker suggesting that everything with a beginning must have a cause, including the universe, which points to God as the cause.
The argument is made that God is eternal and does not have a beginning, so He doesn't require a cause.
The speaker distinguishes between things with a beginning (like the universe) requiring a cause, and God, who is eternal and thus does not need one.
The speaker mentions moral absolutes, arguing that actions like murder are wrong because humans have innate value from a Creator.
The speaker argues that without a Creator, moral value would be relative, as it would come from either oneself or society.
The idea of moral absolutes pointing to a Creator is emphasized, suggesting that objective morality is evidence for God's existence.
The speaker claims that rational thought must come from a rational source, implying that human rationality points to a rational Creator.
The speaker challenges the idea that rational minds can come from non-rational processes, asserting that rationality is evidence of a rational being (God).
The atheist interlocutor views human traits, including morality, as products of survival and necessity, rather than divine purpose.
The conversation touches on survival in ancient tribes, with the atheist arguing that morality, such as not harming fellow tribe members, evolved for survival.
The speaker counters this by arguing that acts like rape or murder might lead to survival in some cases, but they are still morally wrong, pointing to a higher moral standard from God.
The speaker discusses the dangers of relativistic morality by using the example of a gang requiring murder to join, arguing that objective morality comes from God.
Transcripts
first thing is that I have born and
raised I'm an atheist yep like I have
never had faith in higher power during
my life right I do not have faith in the
Bible as a source what proof do you have
outside of that good the first read
piece of evidence not proof but the
first piece of evidence that points me
to God is order and design do not come
out of chaos by chance right order and
design point to some type of intelligent
mind biology student myself yes I'm a
firm believer in kind of principles of
evolution good that kind of thing um let
me just HP quickly out though where is
the creative mechanism in evolution I I
cuz I believe in evolution as a process
but where is the creative mechanism in
evolution I don't think I fully
understand the question but how do you
get something from nothing in evolution
it the thing is that it didn't come from
nothing um I forgot the exact title of
the experiment but um there is this idea
that the primordial soup right yeah the
oceans of a primordial Earth with um sir
I think I think we can bring this one to
a conclusion fairly quickly I am
convinced that before the Big Bang there
was nothing right okay and that's what
Einstein acknowledged and that's why
Einstein tried to beat the big bang
mathematically and he introduced a fudge
factor to try and prove that the Big
Bang was not true because Einstein
understood if the Big Bang is true my
pantheism which means everything is God
Is Wrong there's a Creator because
everything that has a beginning has a
cause the universe has a beginning
therefore the universe has a cause and
it's far more reasonable to believe in
the beginning an intelligent mind caused
it than to believe nothing caused it
right and that's philosophically
unacceptable bang what caused that
nothing that is stupidity rank
stupidity everything that has a
beginning
has a cause the universe has a beginning
therefore the universe has a cause what
is the best answer to the question who
caused the universe in that case it
would be God right yeah God is the most
reasonable explanation then what is our
explanation for the beginning of God
great
question it is
idolatry to think God has a beginning
because the God who has revealed himself
through Jesus Christ
has revealed himself as
Eternal so when I begin to say well who
created God it means I don't understand
who God has revealed himself to me
nobody created God because God does not
have a beginning remember I didn't say
everything has a cause I said everything
that has a beginning has a cause God is
eternal so God does not have a cause
does that make sense yeah and in that
case that's kind of my view for well
existence itself without Creator because
God does not have a Cause right
and well we exist so how is it so much
more to believe that existence itself
does not have a
cause because existence cannot come out
of non-existence but God can no God
doesn't come out of anything see there's
nothing before God that God comes out of
because God is eternal No Beginning No
End but everything that has a beginning
like this guy and me there got to be a
cause for him and me cuz we definitely
have a beginning and we're getting a
little older so we're not going to be
around a lot longer okay but we have a
beginning which means there's got to be
a cause for this dude and for this dude
make sense of course good well I thank
you for that okay right enough quickly
let's just go through some other pieces
of evidence of why we believe God exists
moral absolutes I'm convinced to the
root of my being that if get this guy
pulls out a knife and sticks it in your
body that is absolutely wrong because
this man is violating your value of
course now the only way you can have
value is if someone created you cuz if
nobody created you you just happen by
accident which means any value you have
is either you gave it to yourself or I
gave it to you and some powerful people
or your culture did right right but I
would argue that it's still relative the
reason I'm convinced that if he sticks a
knife into you it's evil is because you
have innate value that comes from your
creator who created you for a purpose
and who really loves you third one is
moral absolutes objective morals
pointing to some type of Creator fourth
one is this your rational mind does it
come from the nonrational or does it
come from the rational an atheist is
someone who says my rational mind comes
from the nonrational
I can't
that doesn't make any
sense the rational comes from the
rational the rational does not come from
the r irrational which is why not that
I've proven God but it's evidence that
it's more reasonable to say we come from
God not that we come from the
non-rational okay does that make sense
yeah I believe so to find the rational
and the non-rational I don't think I
understand where we all right you have
the ability and Hope I have the ability
to think
rationally all right that is why if I
make a rational mistake you're going to
look me in the face and say Cliff that
makes no sense right that's
irrational okay my ability to think
rationally comes from rational being it
doesn't come from
this this has no ability to
rationalize neither does that tree of
course but you and I do so is it more
reasonable to think that our ability to
reason comes from a rational being God
or is it more reasonable to believe that
our rational Talent comes from the
nonrational just from matter and
energy this is difficult for me because
I just see this on different way points
honestly like we do believe different
things apparent yes we believe different
things and you be next just for these
pieces of evidence I see these coming
from not a higher power but from
necessity from necessity well what does
that mean
because
say coming from my point of view every
piece of a human comes from a piece like
every piece of a human is part of
necessity and gives someone more chance
of
survival so say our
morality I see you didn't like
that say morality if you were to stab me
say we're part of the same TR
yeah ancient human yeah if he were to
stab me while we were out say Gathering
berries he can't the tribe was lost a
member yeah he can't have as many
berries now and he can't carry back as
much food perhaps now even then my
parents are going to be mad at him the
tribe part like equals less survival and
less
humans maybe does rape help a human
experiment
continue no yes it does rape can produce
babies
yes but survival of the
fittest why should I not steal his
backpack if if survival of the fittest
is true why should I not steal his
backpack well the thing is is that
you're part of the same tribe so what
we're part of the same society that
doesn't benefit anybody you are of
different tribes that isn't necessarily
A morals at least in the human
perspective no no no no no no no if what
you say is true
true then if I want to be part of a gang
and the gang says in order to be part of
our tribe Our Gang you got to go out and
murder does that make me going out and
murder good no thank you because that's
unnecessary murder of people in the same
city the same tribe no no no no I want
to be part of a gang which is a tribe A
family MH and in order to be part of a
gang they're telling me I got to go out
and
murder my desire to be part of a tribe
the tribe defining good and evil is that
really objective morality is that really
make it good because the tribe says it's
good no thank you which is why you and I
need to acknowledge God exists because
God's character which is just defines
murder as being wrong I don't care what
gang or what tribe or what nation be it
Nazi Germany or whatever says it's good
does that make sense yeah
course okay good so I need to move on to
another person but I cannot thank you
enough for your respectful thinking and
I appreciate it a lot
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