Plato's Euthyphro - Which comes first: God or Morality?

Summary

The script is a discussion on Plato's dialogue 'Euthyphro,' where Socrates questions Euthyphro about the nature of morality. Euthyphro initially defines piety as what is dear to the gods, but Socrates challenges this by asking if actions are virtuous because the gods love them or if the gods love them because they are virtuous. This leads to a deeper philosophical inquiry into whether morality is derived from divine command or if it exists independently.

Takeaways

• 😯 The dialogue 'Euthyphro' by Plato explores the nature of morality and virtue through a conversation between Socrates and Euthyphro.
• 🗣️ Euthyphro is prosecuting his father for murder, believing he has a moral duty to do so, which prompts Socrates to question him about the nature of morality.
• 🤔 Socrates challenges Euthyphro's initial claim that piety is whatever the gods love, questioning whether something is pious because the gods love it, or do the gods love it because it is pious.
• 👨‍🏫 Socrates seeks a definition of piety that is not just a list of examples but an understanding of the essence of piety itself.
• 😕 Euthyphro struggles to provide a satisfactory answer to Socrates' question, highlighting the difficulty in defining moral concepts.
• 🔄 The dialogue illustrates the problem of explaining moral concepts by reference to divine will, as it leads to questions about why the gods love certain actions.
• 🧐 Socrates suggests that if actions are virtuous because the gods love them, then the gods' love is a result of their virtue, not the cause.
• 🤨 The dialogue raises the question of whether morality is arbitrary if it is based solely on divine command, as opposed to being based on inherent qualities of actions.
• 📚 The discussion in 'Euthyphro' is relevant to both polytheistic and monotheistic traditions, as it questions the source of moral values.
• 🤔 The dialogue ends without a clear answer to the question of what makes an action virtuous, leaving it as an open philosophical question.

Q & A

What is the main topic of the dialogue 'Euthyphro'?

The main topic of the dialogue 'Euthyphro' is to explore the nature of piety, virtue, and moral goodness, specifically what makes certain actions virtuous or morally right.

Why is Socrates at the courthouse in the dialogue?

Socrates is at the courthouse because he has been accused of corrupting the youth, a crime for which he is awaiting trial.

Why is Euthyphro at the courthouse?

Euthyphro is at the courthouse because he is prosecuting his own father for the murder of a laborer.

What is the initial misunderstanding between Socrates and Euthyphro regarding the question of piety?

Euthyphro initially misunderstands Socrates' question about piety, thinking it is about specific acts rather than the underlying nature or definition of piety itself.

What does Euthyphro's first definition of piety entail?

Euthyphro's first definition of piety is that it is what he is doing, prosecuting his father for murder, suggesting that piety is acting in a way that is morally right, regardless of familial relationships.

How does Socrates challenge Euthyphro's initial definition of piety?

Socrates challenges Euthyphro's definition by asking for the essence of piety rather than examples, comparing it to asking a child what a building is and receiving a list of buildings instead of a definition.

What is the final answer Euthyphro gives to Socrates' question about piety?

Euthyphro's final answer is that piety is that which is dear to the gods, and impiety is that which is not dear to them.

What problem arises with Euthyphro's final answer regarding the gods' love?

The problem is that the gods, being numerous and often in disagreement in Greek mythology, do not all love the same things, which complicates the idea that virtue is defined by what the gods love.

What is the 'explanatory priority' question that Socrates asks Euthyphro?

The 'explanatory priority' question is whether acts are pious because the gods love them, or do the gods love them because they are pious, addressing the direction of explanation between piety and divine love.

What is the dilemma Socrates points out with Euthyphro's final answer?

The dilemma is that if the gods love virtuous acts because they are virtuous, then there must be something prior to the gods' love that makes the acts virtuous, which is what Socrates is seeking to understand.

How does the dialogue 'Euthyphro' relate to the concepts discussed by philosophers like Bentham and Kant?

The dialogue 'Euthyphro' relates to the concepts of Bentham and Kant by asking what makes virtuous actions virtuous, similar to how they sought to define moral goodness or the moral rightness of actions.

Outlines

00:00

📜 Introduction to the Euthyphro Dialogue

The paragraph introduces a Platonic dialogue named 'Euthyphro', where Socrates engages in a conversation about morality with Euthyphro. Socrates is noted to be a philosopher who is a character in many of Plato's works, and it's mentioned that his existence is more certain than Plato's teacher. The setting is in front of a courthouse, where Socrates is accused of corrupting the youth, and Euthyphro is prosecuting his father for murder. The dialogue is centered around the question of what constitutes piety and impiety, with Socrates seeking to understand the nature of these virtues rather than just examples of them.

05:03

🤔 The Nature of Virtue

This section delves into the philosophical discussion between Socrates and Euthyphro about the nature of virtue. Euthyphro initially misunderstands the question, equating his own actions of prosecuting his father with virtue. Socrates clarifies that he is seeking the essence of piety, not just examples of it. Euthyphro then suggests that piety is what is dear to the gods, and impiety is what is not, which Socrates finds problematic due to the inconsistent nature of the Greek gods' affections.

10:04

🔍 Explanatory Priority in Morality

The paragraph discusses the question of whether actions are virtuous because they are loved by the gods, or are they loved by the gods because they are virtuous. This is framed as a question of explanatory priority. An analogy is made with the color green and the English sentence 'grass is green' to illustrate the concept. The paragraph explores the idea that the nature of an act (its virtuousness) should explain why the gods love it, rather than the gods' love explaining the act's virtuousness.

15:06

📚 The Euthyphro Dilemma

Socrates and Euthyphro continue their dialogue, focusing on the dilemma of whether the gods love virtuous acts because they are virtuous, or if they are virtuous because the gods love them. Euthyphro agrees with Socrates that the gods love virtuous acts because they are virtuous. However, Socrates points out a problem with this reasoning: if the acts are virtuous independently of the gods' love, then the gods' love does not explain their virtuousness.

20:07

🧐 The Problem with Divine Command Theory

The paragraph explores the implications of suggesting that the gods' love for certain actions makes them virtuous. It raises the question of whether God's love for an action is the reason for its virtuousness, or if the action is virtuous regardless of God's love. The paragraph discusses the potential arbitrariness of moral values if they are solely based on divine preference, and whether such a view aligns with our understanding of morality.

25:07

🏔 The Divine Command and Moral Arbitrariness

This section contemplates the idea that if God's command is the sole determinant of moral values, it could lead to an arbitrary moral system. It uses a hypothetical scenario where God commands an individual to perform an immoral act, like sacrificing their child, to illustrate the point. The paragraph suggests that morality might not be subject to divine whim and that there may be a deeper, inherent quality to virtuous acts that is not dependent on divine command.

Keywords

💡Euthyphro

Euthyphro is a character in a Platonic dialogue named after him. He is noted for his self-proclaimed expertise in matters of morality and holiness. In the dialogue, he is prosecuting his own father for a perceived crime, which sets the stage for Socrates to question him about the nature of piety and morality. Euthyphro's name is central to understanding the dialogue's exploration of moral definitions.

💡Socrates

Socrates is the main character in many of Plato's dialogues, including 'Euthyphro.' Known for his philosophical method of questioning, Socrates here challenges Euthyphro's understanding of piety and morality. His inquiries form the core of the dialogue, aiming to arrive at a definition of piety that is not just based on examples but on the underlying nature of moral actions.

💡Piety

Piety, or holiness, is a central concept in the dialogue 'Euthyphro.' It refers to actions or behaviors that are considered holy or righteous. Socrates questions Euthyphro to define piety, exploring whether it is something loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods, thus delving into the nature of moral goodness.

💡Morality

Morality is the differentiation between right and wrong. In the dialogue, Socrates and Euthyphro discuss morality in the context of piety. They explore whether moral actions are moral because the gods approve of them or if the gods approve of them because they are moral, touching on the foundations of ethical behavior.

💡Virtue

Virtue, in the context of the dialogue, is closely related to piety and refers to morally good actions or qualities. Euthyphro initially equates his own actions of prosecuting his father with virtue. Socrates, however, seeks a more profound understanding of virtue, aiming to find its essence rather than just examples.

💡Aristotle

Aristotle is mentioned as Plato's student, and his existence is contrasted with the uncertainty surrounding Socrates' existence. Aristotle's philosophy, like Plato's, deals with questions of morality and virtue, but he is noted for having a different approach to defining these concepts compared to Plato and Socrates.

💡Explanatory Priority

Explanatory priority is a philosophical concept discussed in the dialogue in relation to the question of whether the gods love actions because they are virtuous or actions are virtuous because the gods love them. It refers to the need to establish which factor is the cause or explanation for the other.

💡Divine Command Theory

Divine Command Theory is implied in the dialogue when discussing whether actions are morally right because a god or gods command them. This theory suggests that morality is derived from the commands of a deity. Socrates' questioning of Euthyphro challenges this theory by suggesting that the gods' love for an action does not necessarily explain its moral value.

💡Monotheism

Monotheism is mentioned in the dialogue as a contrast to the polytheism of ancient Greek religion. The concept is used to explore whether the idea that 'virtue is what the gods love' could apply to a single god as well as to multiple gods, thus examining the consistency of moral values across different religious frameworks.

💡Cronos

Cronos is referenced as an example of the complex and often contradictory moral examples provided by Greek mythology. Euthyphro cites the story of Zeus killing Cronos as an example of an act that could be considered both virtuous and vicious, illustrating the difficulty in establishing moral absolutes based on divine actions.

Highlights

Socrates and Euthyphro discuss morality in the Platonic dialogue 'Euthyphro'.

Euthyphro claims to have exact knowledge of moral matters, distinguishing him from others.

Socrates is at the courthouse accused of corrupting the youth.

Euthyphro is prosecuting his father for murder in the dialogue.

The story involves a laborer who killed a domestic servant and was later chained in a ditch by Euthyphro's father, where he died.

Socrates asks Euthyphro to define piety and impiety, which are used interchangeably with moral goodness.

Euthyphro initially misunderstands the question, thinking Socrates is asking for examples of virtuous acts.

Socrates clarifies that he is asking for the nature of virtue itself, not just examples.

Euthyphro's answer is that piety is what is dear to the gods, and impiety is what is not.

Socrates points out a problem with the answer, as the gods do not all agree on what is dear to them.

Socrates suggests that what all gods love is virtuous, what they all hate is vicious, and what they disagree about is morally neutral.

Socrates asks whether actions are pious because the gods love them, or do the gods love them because they are pious.

Euthyphro agrees that the gods love pious actions because they are pious, not the other way around.

Socrates highlights a problem with this answer, as it implies that the gods' love is a result of the actions' piety, not the cause.

The dialogue suggests that virtue cannot be explained solely by divine love or command.

The problem with deriving morality from divine will is that it seems arbitrary and unconnected to our notion of morality.

The dialogue raises questions about the nature of moral truths and their relationship to divine will.

Transcripts

so Socrates says Wow Euthyphro you must

really know what you're talking about

when it comes to morality and Euthyphro

says referring to himself in the third

person the best of Euthyphro and that

which distinguishes him Socrates from

other men is his exact knowledge of all

such matters what a douche so today we

are reading a platonic dialogue called

Euthyphro Plato wrote this dialogue

Plato was an ancient Greek philosopher

he wrote most of what he wrote about his

teacher Socrates Socrates is the

character in all of these dialogues

Socrates almost certainly existed but

there is some question as to whether

Socrates existed in the first place

Plato definitely existed Aristotle who

was Plato's student who we read earlier

in the course

Aristotle definitely existed but this

dialogue is a discussion a philosophical

discussion between Socrates and this guy

Euthyphro and the name of the dialogue

is Euthyphro so there in front of the

courthouse there in front of the

courthouse which I assume works like

this because every building in ancient

Greece looked like that there in front

of the courthouse and Socrates is there

because he has been accused of a crime

corrupting the youth and Euthyphro is

there because Euthyphro is prosecuting a

crime he has accused someone else of a

crime he accused his father of murder

the story is this the father had a

laborer who worked on their farm at

knack cos or something and the laborer

got into a fight with a domestic servant

so you've got these two folks laborer

and domestic servant or whatever and

they're drunk or one of them is drunk

and they're in a fight and this one

kills the other one so this one is dead

and then the father takes this one the

one who killed the other one and chains

him up and puts him in a ditch here's

the ditch and he leaves him in the ditch

for a few days while they're waiting for

a diviner from Athens that's supposed to

figure out what happens to the laborer

who murdered the other person and then

while he's in the ditch he dies

and so Euthyphro claims that his father

by leaving this person in the ditch has

himself committed murder and so

Euthyphro is prosecuting his own father

for murder and socrates takes this

opportunity to ask well Euthyphro if you

know so much about morality and you know

so much about virtue then i have the

following philosophical question for you

and the question is this what is piety

and what is impiety okay so in this

dialogue the terms piety and impiety and

also brought you and also holiness all

of these terms are gonna be thrown

around interchangeably we might also add

a term more familiar that we've been

using in this course something like

moral goodness or the the moral

rightness of actions that's what we're

after that's what this dialogue is about

it's about what makes the good things

good the right things right the virtuous

things virtuous what do they all have in

common you will remember this question

by the way from the beginning of the

course when we talked about Bentham and

Kant these philosophers were answering

the same kind of question what makes the

virtuous things virtuous Bentham's

answer you may remember is that the

virtuous actions are virtuous because

they produce an outcome that has the

greatest total of pleasure - pain that

was his answer so Socrates in this

dialogue is asking Euthyphro the same

question okay so at first Euthyphro

misunderstands the question Socrates

asks what is piety and impiety or what

is virtue and viciousness or vice and

Euthyphro says piety is just what I'm

doing virtue is just what I'm doing

prosecuting your father even though he

is your father when he's done something

wrong that that's what virtue is and

then actually a Euthyphro gives a whole

bunch of other examples and he says that

Zeus also killed his own father Cronos

when Kronos ate some babies or something

I don't really know what the story is

but the Greek gods they were all you

know killing each other and sleeping

with each other and they would have baby

humans and all sorts of crazy stuff

right and so he gives all of these

examples of virtuous acts Euthyphro and

Socrates says no that's not what I meant

that's not what I was asking I wasn't

asking for a list of examples I was

asking for the nature of piety itself

it's like if my young child asked me

what's a building and I said oh the

Chrysler Building the Sears Tower the

Eiffel Tower

the Pentagon that's not a helpful answer

that's just a list of some buildings

what what the child is asking in that

case is what makes all of those things

buildings and all of the non buildings

non buildings we want to know about the

nature of building hood itself or in

this case we want to know about the

nature of virtue itself what makes the

virtuous acts virtuous so don't just

give me a list of virtuous acts give me

the nature of virtue so now we've got

the question

so Socrates asks that question what is

virtue and after they go back and forth

and finally clarify exactly what the

question is

Euthyphro finally gives an answer here

is the answer that Euthyphro gives

okay that's youth the fros answer piety

then is that which is dear to the gods

and impiety is that which is not dear to

them so this answer is that virtue if

we're translating this from piety talk

into virtue talk or moral goodness talk

virtue is that which the gods approve of

or like or love later in the dialogue as

you noticed it sort of switches from

what is dear to the gods to what the

gods love okay so that's the answer

that's youth the pros answer what is

virtue virtue is what the gods love

all right so this answer runs into a

problem it's a problem that may have

already occurred to you when we're

talking about the ancient Greek gods

there's a whole bunch of them and

they're like reality TV stars or their

characters on a soap opera and they're

all sleeping with each other and

murdering each other and lying to each

other and they're getting in fights all

the time and they have alliances with

each other they don't agree about stuff

if the gods don't all love the same

stuff then how can what the gods love be

an account of virtue or of anything else

that's the problem

Socrates points this out and you throw

kind of gets that this is the problem

can't think of a solution and then

Socrates just gives him a solution it's

not actually that good of a solution but

the solution is something like okay

we're gonna settle on this the things

that all of the gods love those are good

those are virtuous and the things that

all of the gods hate those are bad those

are vicious and the stuff that the gods

disagree about that's going to be

morally neutral it's gonna be they say

neither or both okay there's some

problems with this answer maybe like it

seems like the gods are gonna disagree

about a lot of stuff so this answer is

gonna make most actions morally neutral

they're gonna be very few virtuous acts

and very few vicious acts that might be

a problem don't worry about that put

that aside we're gonna settle on this as

the answer most of the reason by the way

that it's helpful to settle on this as

the answer is that actually we're gonna

run this entire set of questioning this

entire line of thinking we're gonna run

it with just one God we can think of

this as being an argument that's

relevant to monotheism just as much as

it's relevant to ancient Greek

polytheism anyway the answer is virtue

is what the gods love then Socrates asks

a question about this answer this is a

big deal question here's what the

question is

the point which I should first wish to

understand is whether the pious or holy

is beloved by the gods because it is

holy or holy because it is beloved by

the gods okay let's get a few things

straight first of all we're talking

Socrates is talking about what's pious

or holy and we're sort of translating

that into virtue talk or what's morally

good

although Socrates also talks in these

terms in the dialogue as well okay so

the question is a question about what

explains what does the fact that these

acts are good or virtuous does that fact

explain why the gods love them or does

the fact that the gods love them explain

why they are good or virtuous that's the

question what explains what

our virtuous acts virtuous because the

gods love them or did the gods love them

because they are virtuous this is a

question about what philosophers would

call explanatory priority it needs to be

perfectly 100 percent clear what this

question is before we go on here's an

analogy say that you've got two

different things one is you've got some

grass here's the grass it's on the

ground it looks like that okay then

you've got this other thing you've got a

sentence in the English language the

sentence is grass is this is a true

sentence don't come back at me telling

me that sometimes the grass is brown if

you don't water it or whatever forget

about that this is a generalization

about grass grass is green this is true

grasses and purple grasses and orange

grass is green we're going to assume

that for the purposes of this example

this is a bunch of ink on a piece of

glass this sentence it's a bunch of ink

or when I say it it's a bunch of sound

waves moving through the air or through

the water if I set it under water or

something right

so it's a bunch of ink or it's a bunch

of air right it's a sentence of the

English language this well this is a

bunch of marker also because it's a

drawing but the grass itself is a plant

on the ground okay so we've got a

sentence and a plant and we might ask

the following question

is the English sentence grass is green

true because grass is green or is grass

green because the English sentence grass

is green is true right so we're talking

about two different things we're talking

about the sentence and it has a certain

feature or quality it has trueness and

then we're talking about the grass a

plant and that plant has a certain

quality or feature it has greenness how

do you spell greenness are there two

ends probably not it doesn't matter okay

the grass has the greenness

well what explains what what comes first

not in time exactly

but what comes first in explanatory

order what explains what is it that the

greenness of the grass explains the

trueness of the sentence or is it the

trueness of the sentence that explains

the greenness of the grass

what's the answer everybody knows about

grass and sentences right it's

definitely to the greenness of the grass

explains why that sentence is true the

grass doesn't as it were to speak

totally metaphorically check with the

sentence to see whether this sentence is

true or not and then based on that it's

either green or some other color that's

not the way it works but there's a

certain sense in which the sentence

checks with the grass and then based on

how the grass is that determines whether

the sentence is true or false the

greenness of the grass is explanatorily

prior to the trueness of the sentence

this thing this fact about grass

explains this thing the fact about

language this question is asking the

same sort of thing does the virtuousness

of the axe explain why the gods love

those acts or does the fact that the

gods love those acts explain why they

are virtuous that's the question and so

we're choosing between the same sort of

two options as we were choosing with as

we were choosing between in the grass

example right the options are these one

does the virtuousness explain the love

of the gods right or does the love of

the gods explain the virtuousness those

are the two options those are the two

ways of answering Socrates's question

and now we're going to see what answer

they set along Euthyphro of course just

sort of bumbles through a sort of answer

and then Socrates really ends up filling

it in for him

here I'll just read this bit Socrates

says and what do you say of piety

Euthyphro is not piety according to your

definition loved by all the gods and you

throw says yes and Socrates says because

it is pious or holy or for some other

reason and Euthyphro says no that is the

reason and Socrates says it is beloved

because it is holy not holy because it

is loved and Euthyphro says yes so they

pick one of these answers they pick

number one they pick that one

virtuousness the virtuousness of actions

explains why the gods love those actions

they pick that one right so we can sort

of summarize this by having Euthyphro

answer Socrates this question by saying

that you know the gods love them the

actions that is they love them because

they are virtuous okay that's the answer

except there's a problem with this

answer Socrates points out this problem

a little later in the dialogue here's

what he says

Socrates says you appear to me Euthyphro

when I asked you what is the essence of

holiness to offer an attribute only and

not the essence tell me once more what

holiness or piety really is whether dear

to the gods or not and what is impiety

and then Euthyphro responds and

basically just says I don't know what to

say man it seems like every time we talk

we just go round and round in circles

and I get really confused okay but do

you see what the problem is it's a

problem for this answer the answer that

the gods love the virtuous acts because

they are virtuous the problem is this if

the acts are virtuous independently of

whether or not the gods love them and

the gods choose to love them because

they as it were recognize that virtue

they they look at the acts and they see

huh these are the virtuous ones because

they're virtuous I'm going to love them

then mentioning the fact that the gods

love the virtuous acts doesn't explain

their virtuousness they were virtuous

already and that's what we were

interested in why were they virtuous in

the first place if the virtuousness

explains the gods love then there's got

to be something earlier that explains

the virtuousness and that's what we want

to know about it's the same sort of

thing with the grass is green right if

the fact that the sentence the grass is

green is explained by the greenness of

the grass well then there's some further

thing that explains why grass is green

the answer is like chlorophyll or

something like that it's in the plants

and it allows the plants to absorb

energy from the Sun and then the

mitochondria is the powerhouse of the

cell or something I don't know the point

is there's something else that explains

why the grass is green and that's the

thing we want to know when we ask what

makes grass green there's something else

then that explains why the virtuous acts

are virtuous and that's what we want to

to know about the whole time so Socrates

is response to Euthyphro answer that the

gods love these acts because they are

virtuous is something like that doesn't

explain that's no explanation at

all I wanted to know what makes those

acts virtuous and you just told me some

result of their being virtuous but I

wanted to know the cause or the

explanation so we see that there's a

problem with this option it might be

true of course it might be true that the

gods exist or that one god exists and

that there's a divine love for certain

acts and that it is itself explained by

virtuousness that might be true but if

that's true then saying all of that

doesn't answer the original question

what is virtue that's the problem

we wanted to know what made the virtuous

acts virtuous in the first place so

we've got a problem with this answer but

what about this answer in the dialogue

Plato doesn't even consider this option

that the gods love what they love and

that that explains why those things are

good things to do are virtuous acts

what's wrong with this option and let's

think about it in terms of a

monotheistic God because I suspect most

of the students in this class are well

they're more likely to be monotheists

than they are to be ancient Greek

polytheists why can't we explain the

rightness or wrongness of actions based

on just the fact that God loves those

actions well it seems like we have two

options either there's some reason that

God loves those acts right so the

virtuousness is explained in terms of

divine love and that love is in turn

by something else right if there's

something else that that is the reason

why God chooses to love those things

well then what is it

and whatever it is it's really gonna be

the explanation of the virtuousness of

those acts right so why does God love

those actions well is it because those

actions produce the greatest total of

pleasure - pain if that's why then

really it's the fact that these acts

produce the greatest total of pleasure -

pain that makes them virtuous that's a

more satisfying or fuller explanation at

least to go through God fine but all the

way back to the real reason why those

acts are the ones that's one route but

the alternative route is to say well the

virtue of actions is explained by the

fact that God loves them and there is no

explanation for why God picked those

acts why God gathered those acts

together and labeled them as the

virtuous ones or chose to love those or

chose to command those if there's no

explanation for why God picked those

well that might seem kind of bizarre and

arbitrary it just might seem at odds

with our notion of morality maybe not I

mean maybe you just say no no that is

our notion of morality our notion of the

moral rightness or wrongness of actions

just is whatever actions God chooses to

love and he could choose to love you

might say anything he could choose to

love murder he could choose to love

vengeance and pettiness and selfishness

and aggressiveness he could choose to

love lying and breaking your promises

and harming other people and harming

yourself and if he did choose those

things than those things would be moral

they would be morally good it would be

virtuous you might say that it does seem

like there's something a little odd

about that right I mean consider if God

woke you up in the middle of the night

and you said oh whoa

who's there and God said it's me God and

you said really

and God said yes it's me God and then

you just knew without a doubt that it

really was God okay so now you know you

are face to face with the creator of the

universe and God says okay I need you to

do something I need you to go wake up

your child and bring this child up on

this mountain and then slit the child's

throat and kill the child the child will

bleed out died on the rocks right there

leave the kid on the rocks no problem go

home and then you might say why

and God says can't explain why you just

got to do it and you say okay but that

doesn't seem right to me and God says no

no I'm telling you that it's what you

should do so it is right and then you

say okay I've got it I've got it I've

got it is it that my kid is gonna grow

up to be Hitler or something like that

and this is the only way to prevent some

terrible tragedy and God says no no it's

fine your kid is fine

your kids not going to be terrible your

kids a good kid doesn't deserve this

will never deserve it is not gonna be

Hitler is not going to do anything

terrible it's just that your child is

innocent and I'm telling you to go

slaughter this child and leave him or

her on the mountain on the rock and you

say I don't know if that's the right

thing to do God and God says of course

you know that it's the right thing to do

this is the rightest thing you've ever

been asked to do in your entire life how

do you know it's the rightest thing the

most morally righteous thing you could

ever do will you know that I want you to

do it and I'm God telling you live face

to face so it obviously is the right

thing to do it's more obviously the

right thing to do than anything else

that you've ever thought was right your

whole life because I'm telling you to do

it

now you might then say oh you know what

wow you're right and then you go do it

you kill the child great where

everything works out great but you might

still think know there's something

bizarre about this story that God can't

just arbitrarily choose what what

actions are good and what actions are

bad there's a sense in which that's not

how morality works and he works in such

a way that it's not up to God if that's

the case then you can't go with option

number two and if you can't go with

option number two and you can't go with

option number one well then this can't

be the answer

virtue can't be what the gods love or

what God loves oh one last thing

while I'm erasing this you may have

noticed that last time we talked about

John Locke and there was this passage

where Locke explains the existence of

certain universal moral truths based on

certain facts about God and there was a

problem with that kind of move and the

problem was that well it seems you can

only use facts about God to explain the

existence of objective moral truths if

they're already existed at least one

objective moral truth and we get a sort

of similar version of that kind of

problem here except for well a little

over two thousand years earlier than

Locke and the problem is that moral

truths resulting from divine will seem

at least in some cases or some ways of

making the argument seem only to work or

make sense if you exhume that moral

truths exist already

you

what is piety and what is impiety that

sucked hold on