Marketing Expert Answers Marketing Questions From The Internet
Summary
TLDRRory Southernland debunks marketing myths, emphasizing marketing's role in avoiding opportunity costs rather than being a mere expense. He advises against the need for all marketing to be quantifiable, suggesting that some valuable marketing efforts may not be easily measured. Southernland also stresses the importance of making products distinctive and using service details to differentiate commodities. He discusses how context affects product value, the influence of habit and social proof in consumer behavior, and the potential for marketing to be surprising and counterintuitive. He also touches on the ethical use of behavioral science in marketing and predicts a future where AI could revolutionize marketing by curating personalized content for consumers.
Takeaways
- 💡 Marketing is not a cost but a way to avoid opportunity cost.
- 📏 It's a mistake to only do marketing when it's completely measurable; not everything can be quantified.
- 🚫 Avoid thinking of products as boring; they become interesting when they solve a problem.
- 🌟 Add distinctive features to products to make them stand out, even if they seem slightly gratuitous.
- 📦 Packaging and service details can differentiate a product from commodities.
- 📚 Read 'Unreasonable Hospitality' by Will Gara to learn about differentiation.
- 🧐 Big companies don't manipulate; they contextualize value through marketing.
- 🔄 Habit and social proof are innate behaviors that can be exploited in marketing.
- 📈 Marketers should test assumptions because consumer behavior can be counterintuitive.
- 💸 Price is a feeling, not just a number, and can influence perception of value.
- 🏆 There's no marketing secret; everything is context-dependent and perception-based.
Q & A
What does Rory Sutherland consider to be the biggest marketing lie?
-The biggest marketing lie, according to Rory Sutherland, is the belief that marketing is a cost. He argues that framing marketing as a cost is the wrong mindset because marketing helps avoid opportunity costs.
Why does Rory Sutherland believe that demanding marketing to be completely measurable is a mistake?
-Sutherland believes demanding complete measurability in marketing sets the bar too high. He explains that many valuable marketing strategies are rendered impossible by this rule, as not everything can be quantified.
How can a seemingly boring product be made interesting, according to Sutherland?
-Sutherland suggests that no product is inherently boring if it solves someone's problem. He recommends making products distinctive, eccentric, or adding unique features that make them stand out, such as packaging details or exceptional service.
What does Sutherland say about the relationship between value and marketing?
-Sutherland argues that value is subjective and depends on how products are contextualized through marketing. Marketing can make good things worthless or boring things exciting based on how they are presented.
Which human behaviors does Sutherland believe are easiest to exploit in marketing?
-Sutherland identifies habit and social proof as the easiest behaviors to exploit in marketing. These behaviors are innate, as people tend to repeat past actions and follow what others are doing.
Why do people get addicted to certain products, according to Sutherland?
-Sutherland explains that addiction often stems from habituation and ritual. Products that become familiar and intuitive to use, like the iPhone, create a sense of comfort, making it difficult for people to switch to alternatives.
What surprising results has Sutherland observed in marketing campaigns?
-Sutherland has found that seemingly trivial factors, such as increasing the price of a product, can unexpectedly boost demand. He emphasizes that consumer psychology can defy logical expectations.
What is Sutherland's most controversial marketing view?
-Sutherland's most controversial view is that there is no objective perception of value. He believes value is contextually constructed through internal mental processes, influenced heavily by marketing.
What ethical concerns does Sutherland raise regarding subscription-based business models?
-Sutherland criticizes companies that make it easy to subscribe but difficult to cancel services. He argues that this practice damages consumer trust and ultimately hurts businesses, as it deters people from subscribing to new services.
How does Sutherland envision the future of marketing with AI?
-Sutherland envisions a future where consumers use AI-powered agents to filter and curate marketing information, effectively reversing the traditional direction of marketing. Instead of companies seeking customers, customers will direct AI to find relevant products for them.
Outlines
🎯 Marketing Misconceptions
Rory Southernland discusses common misconceptions about marketing, emphasizing that marketing is not merely a cost but a strategy to avoid opportunity costs. He refutes the idea that marketing should only be done when it's quantifiable, arguing that setting such a high standard can limit creativity. Rory suggests that products should not be seen as boring but rather as problem solvers that can become highly interesting when they malfunction. He uses the example of San Pellegrino's foil cap, which made it stand out from other carbonated drinks. Rory also recommends 'Unreasonable Hospitality' by Will Gara for insights on differentiation. He touches on how big companies can influence consumers through contextualization and perception, rather than manipulation.
🧠 Exploiting Human Behavior
Rory explains that human behaviors such as habit and social proof are innate and can be exploited through marketing. He gives historical examples of how marketing has been used to change societal norms, like drink driving campaigns and the adoption of new technologies. Rory argues that marketing is not inherently deceptive but is about aligning with consumer perceptions. He points out that marketing techniques can be misused, as seen with conmen like Bernie Madoff, but that marketing itself is not evil. He also discusses how marketing can create addictive behaviors through habituation and ritual, using the iPhone as an example of a product that people become accustomed to and reluctant to change.
🔮 Future of Marketing
Rory envisions a future where marketing roles reverse, with consumers appointing AI-powered agencies to find relevant products and services. He suggests that as AI-generated content increases, companies may use AI for filtration and curation. Rory also discusses the importance of ethical marketing, advocating for transparency and considering public perception. He highlights the negative impact of making subscriptions easy to sign up for but difficult to cancel, suggesting it erodes trust. Rory is inspired by the constant learning in marketing and how everyday experiences can enhance one's marketing skills.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Marketing as a cost
💡Measurability in marketing
💡Boring products
💡Contextualizing value
💡Social proof
💡Habit in consumer behavior
💡Psychological pricing
💡Perception of value
💡Manipulation in marketing
💡AI-powered marketing
Highlights
Marketing is not a cost but a way of avoiding opportunity cost. Framing it as a cost is the wrong mindset.
You shouldn't only do marketing when it's measurable. Valuable things that distinguish you are often impossible to quantify.
Products are never boring if they solve someone's problem. Even seemingly mundane products can become exciting in the right context.
Making products distinctive, even with a seemingly gratuitous feature, can change how people perceive them. Packaging and service details can transform products.
Value depends on how we contextualize products. Good things can be made worthless with poor marketing, and boring things can become exciting with the right approach.
Habit and social proof are the easiest human behaviors to exploit, as they are innate and hardwired into people’s decision-making.
Historical innovations, like vaccines or home electricity, required extraordinary levels of marketing, which shaped modern consumer behavior.
Addiction to products is often linked to ritual and habituation. Familiar behaviors in using a product make it difficult for users to switch to alternatives.
Psychological factors, not just logical ones, drive surprising marketing outcomes, such as higher prices leading to higher demand.
Price is a feeling, not just a number. Context can change whether a product feels expensive or like good value for money.
Our perception of value is highly context-dependent, influenced by mental processes and marketing. Objective value doesn’t exist independent of perception.
Some companies create intentionally difficult-to-cancel subscriptions, which erodes consumer trust and damages the broader business ecosystem.
Marketing in the future might reverse direction, with consumers appointing AI-powered agencies to seek out relevant products for them.
With AI-generated content, marketing volume may become intolerable, forcing consumers to rely on AI for filtration and curation of advertising.
Marketing allows constant learning, and even seemingly trivial experiences can improve one’s skills in the field, which makes it a rewarding career.
Transcripts
I'm Rory southernland and I'm on help
bank and I'm going to answer a series of
questions the first one is what is the
biggest marketing lie the biggest
marketing lie is that marketing is a
cost once you frame marketing as a cost
you've got the wrong mindset marketing
is a way of avoiding opportunity cost
it's completely wrong to frame it that
way the second biggest lie is that you
should only do marketing when it's
completely measurable or accountable or
quantifiable because that's simply
setting the bar too high and a lot of
very valuable things you can do to
distinguish your self are rendered
Impossible by that rule don't follow
that rule measure what you can but don't
demand that you measure everything
that's simply a limitation how can you
make a boring product interesting don't
ever think of a product as boring
because if it's solving someone's
problem it may seem boring to random
passes by but when something goes wrong
with your boiler boiler Parts suddenly
take on an extreme level of interest
there is a way in which I think it pays
to make them distinctive eccentric even
to the point of seeming slightly
gratuitous if you just add someone usual
feature I'll give you an example okay
not a boring product at all a very
interesting product but the wonderful
file cap they used to put on the lid of
San pelino cans was notionally pointless
but it made it completely different from
every carbonated drink suddenly because
you had this foil cap on the top it was
like an access all areas pass you could
actually have cans of San peligrino at
your wedding which you probably wouldn't
do with say Fanta perhaps it can be a
packaging detail it can be a service
detail you can always bundle products
with service by the way if you think
your product is a commodity you can
decomod it by adding uh interesting
distinctive and uh remarkable service
levels to it great book you should read
on this by the way it's unreasonable
Hospitality by Will Gara who's a
restorator and it's an absolutely
fantastic book on how to differentiate
yourself how do big companies manipulate
us to buy it's a bit unfair this phrase
of manipulation the value of anything
depends on how we contextualize it you
can make really good things worthless by
Marketing in the wrong way you can make
boring things exciting by Marketing in
the right way it's not reasonable to
suggest that there's an objective View
and valuation attached to a product that
marketing interferes with everything
only has a value to the extent to which
we perceive it as valuable that is not
to say by the way you cannot do bad
things with marketing techniques you can
undoubtedly uh mislead you can obviously
lie you can use cunning uh Behavioral
science tricks to malitia intent I mean
it's very interesting that generally
very successful conmen have usually
discovered something of that kind Bernie
maid off for example had the ingenious
marketing idea of making his fund really
difficult to invest in if you're a
billionaire you're not used to people
saying no to you so this drove people
practically insane with their desire to
invest in the fund to a point that they
suspended most of their usual healthy
skepticism absolutely not saying for a
second that marketing is evil but it's
completely inaccurate to say that
marketing by its nature misrepresents
something there is no objective value
attached to anything that's independent
of your perception you're marketing
whether you like it or not what's human
behaviors are the easiest to exploit
habit and social proof because they're
innate so getting people to do the same
again and getting people to do the same
as other people are doing are
undoubtedly kind of they're hardwired
oh when I say that habit and social
proof are very easy to exploit we have
these two mental default settings which
are kind of do what everybody else does
do what I've done before I was assumed
that Jenna just came up with the small
Fox vaccination everybody celebrated it
brilliant we've cracked this one We're
Off to the Races he had to contend with
huge opposition people saying it was
unbiblical people saying they'd never
done it before it was untested untried
every one of those things from say drink
driving to samesex marriage to the
adoption of the internet to the adoption
of mobile phones has required
extraordinary levels of marketing it
seems extraordinary now to anybody in
2024 the idea that you have to advertise
home electricity trust me for the end of
the 19th century all the way through to
the middle of the 20th century there
were advertising campaigns by
electricity boards extoling the benefit
of having electricity in the home in
retrospect we forget marketing because
we don't say I was marketed into doing
this we say I bought it because I wanted
to because it was a great product but
that very reaction the fact that you're
doing something different is actually
very largely the product of marketing
activity why do people get addicted to
products very similar to I think
habituation and ritual there are certain
products which actually acquire a kind
of ritualistic thing where we just don't
want them to change we're familiar with
them now you could argue for instance
that people are addicted to the iPhone
to the extent that if you switch from
iOS to Android there are a whole load of
familiar system one behaviors that
you've required in using the iPhone
which you will have to relearn if you
switch to Android Now Android isn't very
different to iOS conceptually it's
pretty damn similar but enough of it is
different that something would that goes
from being instinctive to actually
requiring some cognitive effort we find
inherently painful so ritual in a sense
and the fact that Things become system
onized in other words they become
automatic autonomic actually creates a
behavior which is very very similar to
an addiction what marketing campaign
results been the most surprising
actually lots of them and this is why as
I've said don't demand that all your
marketing is quantifiable that's simply
an unreasonable aspiration a surprising
number of direct marketing campaigns
I've been involved in where we test you
find that seemingly trivial things have
a huge effect seemingly important and
logical things are sometimes
counterproductive so testing things
where for example when you put the price
up demand goes up it's completely
seemingly illogical it's only when you
understand that the psychological is not
the same as the narrowly logical and
rational that you realize that that that
actually makes sense no one who's got a
budget of £5,000 to spend on a painting
wants to buy 2,000 painting So quite a
lot of the experiments that I found
particularly surprising and interesting
relates to price to economists price is
a number but to Consumers price is a
feeling you can actually make the same
thing feel expensive or feel good value
for money simply by changing what people
compare it to famously I've always told
the story Rolls-Royce and Maserati
stopped exhibiting their cars at car
shows because they look really expensive
and they switched instead to exhibiting
their cars at yacht and aircraft shows
now if you're alongside a Lear jet or a
Sunseeker yacht both of which run into
many millions bizarrely a 300,000 Euro
Car almost becomes an Impulse buy what's
your most controversial marketing tag I
would argue that there is no objective
perception of value whatsoever that our
valuation of something is internally
constructed uh it's a it's a product of
internal perception and is therefore the
product of mental processes which are
highly influenced by context but the
fact that actually nothing is context
independent and therefore nothing can be
completely marketing free when you
decide to go into one Cafe rather than
another Cafe well in theory yes you'd
look at reviews of the food how reliable
those reviews are in fact what you're
doing is you're unconsciously reading a
whole load of things about the design of
the cafe the furniture the layout the
location and you're making
predictions based on what can only be
said are kind of correlations you know
expectations but largely most of what we
perceive is actually a prediction I find
that very very interesting because it
explains I think to a large extent why
it's very very dangerous to solve
problems without a marketer present
because you will look at solving the
problem s that seem important to you in
the mind of a consumer however what they
actually perceive is hugely contextually
dependent so you could spend an absolute
Fortune trying to improve objective
reality and get absolutely nowhere in
terms of changing customer Behavior I
don't think it's actually controversial
nobody disagrees with me it's just
something that people find hard to act
on in their day-to-day lives what is the
marketing secret big companies don't
want us to know I generally don't think
there are any I mean there are strange
things which companies wouldn't go
public about the fact that you have to
make Diet Coke taste a little bit more
bitter than regular Coke because
otherwise people don't believe it's a
diet drink the fact that you know some
medicinal products are deliberately made
to taste unpleasant because it increases
our belief in the efficacy of the
product if it tastes weird and slightly
unpalatable there are things companies
do which they don't make public one of
the things I would make an ethical
consideration if I were using Behavioral
Science to solve a business problem
would be would I I'd be happy presenting
this on the stage to an audience which
would include both journalists and the
public if I thought a significant number
of people would be outraged if they
discovered what was going on behind the
scenes I wouldn't be comfortable doing
it now remember that most of the
companies we work with the big companies
that have a reputation to protect it's
not in their interests to risk being
seen to be deceiving customers that does
not mean and if you want to study the
darker side of this there are plenty of
conmen huers shyers ET Etc out there who
are undoubtedly using marketing tricks
uh to mislead people it's absolutely
possible One Good Reason To Learn
Behavioral Science is that you learn to
spot it there is an area which I regard
as being fundamentally dubious which big
companies do and should have learned
leared not to do which is the business
of making things very easy to subscribe
to and almost impossible to cancel now
the reason I think they should stop
doing this is I think this is damaging
to the economy as a whole because so
many consumers have now been once bitten
twice shy through a through a
subscription to something I I I think I
was still paying for something like Club
Penguin when my children were in the
sixth form those things need to stop
because it's eroding trust in the whole
system of subscription someone should
have done something about that years ago
not just because it was unfair to the
consumer it's actually damaging to
businesses as a whole because there are
some Services you can only sell that way
50% of consumers basically reach a point
where they go I'm no longer subscribing
to anything ever again it basically
makes it impossible for you to start a
streaming service or anything of that
kind and that's fundamentally
anti-competitive and not even in the
business interest never mind anybody
else how will marketing be done in the
future a few cynics have said it'll be
the same only more and worse I can see a
future this would be the radical take
where marketing reverses Direction
completely where a consumer appoints an
AI powered advertising agency to go out
and find interesting products and
services that they think may be of
relevance so in other words rather than
companies trying to reach people you
would actually it's almost that that
story I told about the people who wrote
to people saying would you be willing to
sell our house reversal of polarity the
reversal of the direction of travel it's
doing it backwards I can envisage a
future for marketing in fact with AI
generated content the volume of
marketing material May simply become
utterly intolerable
and what companies will do is
effectively appoint AIS of their own to
act for filtration stimulation curation
in other words it's that thing I
mentioned earlier which is I'm quite
interested in going to the Philippines
in the first quarter of 2025 over the
next few months can you send me
interesting information that you think
might be particularly pertinent and so
that will be advertising in Reverse
where effectively you go I need a
toaster go and find out the most
interesting toasters you can find in
other words it's marketing done
backwards I don't see any reason why
this shouldn't become popular in the
next 5 to 10 years it's possible that if
the volume of marketing material
automatically generated becomes
ridiculously high it won't only be
popular it will be unavoidable what
inspires you as a marketer oh just a few
things the fact that you're always
learning there's a lovely lovely thing
about Marketing in general and that's
the one thing I'll always recommend
about people going into advertising or
marketing there aren't that many jobs
where doing anything thing can make you
better at your job you know if you're an
actor and you sit outside a cafe or you
you know you observe the Queue at Gales
it doesn't make you a better act if
you're in marketing or advertising or
indeed sales to some extent I'd say if
you're in one of those psychologically
informed disciplines anything you do
going and seeing a French Art House film
going to the cinema going to a
restaurant riding on the top deck of a
bus eavesdropping on other people's
conversations anything even the
seemingly trivial can make you a lot
better at your job that's still
rewarding 35 years on
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