TYT Tempers FLARE Over Netanyahu's Rejection Of Two-State Solution

Summary

The video covers a debate between hosts Jake, Ramesh, and Ben about the ongoing Israel-Palestine conflict. They discuss the recent inflammatory rhetoric from Israeli PM Netanyahu, the high civilian death toll in Gaza, Biden administration's response, whether terms like 'genocide' apply, the root causes of Hamas, and possible paths to peace through a two-state solution if the Netanyahu government is voted out and Hamas removed from power in Gaza.

Takeaways

• 😡 Netanyahu forcefully rejected the Biden administration's push for a two-state solution in Israel-Palestine conflict
• 😢 The tense exchange highlights a growing rift between the US and Israel over resolving the conflict
• 😠 Netanyahu vowed that Israel must retain security control over all territory west of the Jordan river
• 😤 Biden officials say they can still change Netanyahu's stance, citing previous influence over hardline Israeli positions
• 🤔 Saudi Arabia's foreign minister said full Saudi-Israeli relations are contingent on allowing Palestinian statehood
• 😰 The UN says Gaza is on the brink of starvation with 85% of residents displaced and 25% going hungry
• 🙁 60 House Democrats signed a letter questioning unconditional US support for Israeli actions against Palestinians
• 😡 Jake Tapper condemns Netanyahu's rejection of Palestinian statehood as genocidal intent signaled by rhetoric
• ⚖️ The speakers debated whether ethnic cleansing label applies to temporary Gazan displacement during conflict
• 😌 Jake ultimately argues the only solution is for the US to pressure Israel to replace Netanyahu and isolate Hamas

Q & A

What was the initial pushback from Israel in response to Secretary Blinken's call for a separate Palestinian state?

Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu rejected the idea of a Palestinian state. He stated that Israel must control all security west of the Jordan River, even if it means disagreeing with the US.

What is the Biden administration's stance despite Netanyahu's rejection of the two-state solution?

The Biden administration says this is not the final word, as they have been able to change hardline positions from Netanyahu's government before, even during wars.

What statement from Netanyahu does Jake particularly take issue with?

Jake condemned Netanyahu's statement about Israel needing to control all territory "from the river to the sea," which Jake equates to a genocidal phrase when used by Palestinians.

How does Ben justify some of Israel's actions and tactics during the conflict?

Ben argues that Hamas uses human shields and embeds itself in civilian infrastructure, so Israel takes precautions but sometimes civilians get caught in the crossfire while Israel tries to eliminate the existential threat.

What does Jake believe is the only way to achieve peace between Israel and Palestine?

Jake believes the US needs to pressure Israel to remove Netanyahu, Israel must elect a more moderate government, that government must work with the Palestinian Authority on a two-state solution, and the Authority must then establish itself in Gaza with Arab/US help.

What stance does the European Union take on achieving peace according to Ben?

Ben says the EU passed a resolution supporting a permanent ceasefire contingent on releasing hostages and Hamas surrendering - putting pressure on the terrorists rather than just Israel.

Why does Jake get so angry about Israeli actions against Palestinians?

Jake explains his anger stems not just from Israel's brutality, but because their actions take them further away from the peace and security that Israel was founded to provide.

What does Ramesh suggest about the origins of Hamas and Palestinian radicalization?

Ramesh argues that Israel's disproportionate violence and the horrible conditions created for Palestinians contribute to breeding more extremist groups like Hamas over time.

What information does Ben provide from his recent trip to Israel?

Ben relays speaking to IDF battalion commanders about finding weapons and tunnels in 80% of Gazan homes searched, and visiting wounded Israeli soldiers and commanders in the hospital.

Why does Jake believe the Palestinian Authority currently has no credibility or standing?

Jake says because the Authority appears complicit with Israel's occupation of the West Bank, Palestinians don't respect them currently until they can deliver results.

Outlines

00:00

😣 Heated disagreement over Israel/Palestine crisis & U.S. role

The paragraph describes Secretary of State Antony Blinken calling for a Palestinian state, which Israeli PM Netanyahu rejected, insisting Israel control all land west of the Jordan River for security. The U.S. says it can change Netanyahu's stance, but he seems defiant, citing close friendship shouldn't stop him from rejecting the two-state solution. Meanwhile, Saudi Arabia is willing to establish relations with Israel contingent on Palestinian statehood.

05:01

😨 Gaza situation dire; most responsibility lies with Biden & U.S.

The paragraph argues most Gazans are now displaced and starving. Tapper places primary blame on Joe Biden and Washington politicians, though credits some Democrats for urging support for Palestinians. He argues Biden lacks strength to pressure Netanyahu, mocking his pleas rather than action.

10:01

😡 Heated debate over terminology, realities of crisis

Shafi and Shapiro debate proper terminology, accusing the other of bias. Shapiro denies ethnic cleansing, insists it's Israel defending itself, questioning why Shafi wouldn't visit Israel. Shafi refuses to visit an oppressive, brutal country. They argue over the meaning of "from the river to the sea" and who can/should say it. Shapiro insists Gazans haven't been displaced from Gaza itself.

15:05

😕 Discussion over responsibility, solutions to crisis

Shafi argues Gazans are trapped with no services, under attack. Shapiro counters that temporary displacement happens in every war. When Shafi questions if Shapiro considers the displacement voluntary, Shapiro claims that would be the case if Gazans could enter Egypt like Ukrainians entered Poland. Shapiro agrees Netanyahu government obstructs peace.

20:08

😤 More heated accusations of bias, lecturing

The paragraph sees continued fiery debate, with Shafi accusing Israel of making calculations to kill civilians, Shapiro incredulously claiming Shafi trusts Hamas casualty numbers over Israel's. Shapiro visits wounded Israeli soldiers and disputes Shafi's use of "murdered." Shafi questions why Shapiro doesn't care about Palestinian lives.

25:08

😌 Path forward - pressure Israel gov't, empower Palestinian Authority

Tapper argues the way forward is for the U.S. to pressure Israel including withholding money to force elections. Then work with Palestinian Authority toward a peace deal and help them establish governance in Gaza. This would sideline Hamas, allow Gazans to get a state and dignity. Both governments obstructionist of peace must be removed.

Keywords

💡Two-state solution

The two-state solution refers to the proposal of establishing two separate states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace and security. In the video, this concept is a central point of contention between the Israeli government, led by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, and the U.S. administration, which advocates for such a solution as a means to achieve lasting peace in the region. Netanyahu's rejection of this proposal, as highlighted in the video, underscores the deep political and ideological rifts surrounding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

💡Ethnic cleansing

Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic or religious groups from a given territory by a more powerful ethnic group, often involving violence and intimidation. In the video, accusations of ethnic cleansing are directed towards the Israeli government's actions in Gaza, indicating a perception of deliberate actions to displace Palestinian populations. This term is used to convey the severity and impact of military actions on the civilian population of Gaza.

💡Hamas

Hamas is a Palestinian Islamist political organization and militant group that has governed the Gaza Strip since 2007. In the video, Hamas is mentioned in various contexts, including its role as the target of the Israeli military offensive and its designation by some parties as a terrorist organization. The group's actions and Israel's response to them are depicted as central elements of the conflict, with differing views on the legitimacy and impact of Hamas's actions on the situation.

💡Netanyahu

Benjamin Netanyahu, the Prime Minister of Israel, is a key figure in the video, representing the Israeli government's stance on the conflict and its opposition to the two-state solution proposed by the U.S. His statements and policies are portrayed as major obstacles to peace efforts, highlighting his insistence on Israel's security needs and his rejection of external pressures for compromise.

💡Palestinian state

The concept of a Palestinian state involves the establishment of a sovereign nation for the Palestinian people in territories currently occupied by Israel, including the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The video discusses various perspectives on the feasibility and desirability of such a state, with the Israeli government's opposition contrasted against international advocacy for Palestinian sovereignty as a path to peace.

💡Israeli-Palestinian conflict

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a decades-long struggle between Israelis and Palestinians that centers on issues of land, sovereignty, and national identity. The video captures the latest developments in this conflict, including military actions, diplomatic efforts, and the deep divisions between the parties involved. It highlights how the conflict affects regional stability and the lives of people on both sides.

💡Gaza

Gaza refers to the Gaza Strip, a small territory on the eastern coast of the Mediterranean Sea. It is one of the main focal points of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, controlled by Hamas since 2007. The video discusses the devastating impact of military operations in Gaza, including civilian casualties and infrastructure destruction, framing it as a humanitarian crisis.

💡Security

Security in the context of the video refers to the safety and protection of a nation's citizens and territory from external threats. The Israeli government, particularly through the voice of Netanyahu, emphasizes security concerns as the primary justification for its policies and military actions against Hamas in Gaza. The U.S. administration's calls for a two-state solution are also framed as a strategy to ensure Israel's long-term security.

💡International response

The international response to the conflict and proposed solutions, including statements from Saudi Arabia and the White House, are discussed in the video. These highlight the global concern over the conflict and the varied positions of different countries and international bodies on how to achieve peace and security in the region.

💡Humanitarian crisis

The humanitarian crisis refers to the severe suffering and displacement of civilians resulting from the conflict, especially in Gaza. The video mentions the dire conditions faced by the Gazan population, including homelessness, lack of basic services, and starvation. It underscores the urgent need for a resolution that addresses the humanitarian impact of the conflict on the civilian population.

Highlights

Secretary of State Blinken called for a separate Palestinian state, which Netanyahu firmly rejected

Netanyahu said Israel must control all land west of the Jordan River, rejecting pressure from the U.S. for a two state solution

The tense exchange shows a growing rift between the U.S. and Israel over resolving the conflict

60 House Democrats sent a letter urging the Biden admin not to support the displacement and suffering of Palestinians

Jake argues Netanyahu's "from the river to the sea" statement echoes genocidal rhetoric used by some Palestinians

Ben says calling Israel's actions genocide or ethnic cleansing doesn't match the facts on the ground

Ramesh argues the U.S. is the only country with leverage to bring an end to the crisis but continues to enable Israel

Jake slams Biden as "the weakest man in the world" for failing to stand up more firmly against Netanyahu

Ben defends Israel's tactics and civilian casualty rates compared to other wars

Jake argues driving 85% of Gazans from their homes fits the definition of ethnic cleansing

Ramesh questions whether the U.S. or Israel have any real vision for a viable two state solution given the destruction

Jake lays out his plan: the U.S. cuts off aid to pressure Israel while Israelis vote out Netanyahu's government

A new Israeli government works with Arab states to pressure the Palestinian Authority into a peace deal

The deal would give PA credibility to establish authority in Gaza and contain Hamas

Jake says continued oppression by Israel will only lead to more violence, war and anger

Transcripts

New, pretty harsh pushback in Israel this morning

after Secretary of State Antony Blinken called for a separate Palestinian state.

Blinken explained this was key to ensuring regional support for Israel's

security and Iran's isolation.

The Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu,

pretty much flat out rejected that idea.

The state of Israel must control the security of all the land

which is west of the Jordan River.

That is a truth that I am saying to our friends, the Americans,

and have also blocked an attempt to force upon us a reality

which will hurt the security of Israel.

Prime Minister in Israel must be able to say no,

even to the closest of our friends.

That's Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu forcefully rejecting

the Biden administration's push for a two state solution following the end

of this war, whenever that will be.

The US is saying, however, that that is not the final word,

citing that they've been able to change previous hardline positions from the

Netanyahu government even during this war.

The tense back and forth reflected what has become a wide rift between the

two allies over the scope of Israel's war and its plans for the future

of the beleaguered territory.

We obviously see it different, white House national security

spokesperson John Kirby said.

Netanyahu spoke just a day after US Secretary of State Antony Blinken said

Israel would never have genuine security without a pathway

toward Palestinian independence.

Earlier this week, the white House announced that this was the right time

for Israel to lower the intensity of its devastating military offensive in Gaza.

In a nationally televised news conference, Netanyahu struck a defiant tone,

repeatedly saying Israel would not halt its offensive until it realizes its goals

of destroying Gaza's Hamas militant group and bringing home

all remaining hostages held by Hamas.

Saudi Arabia's foreign minister said the kingdom is ready to establish

full relations with Israel as part of a larger political agreement,

quote, but that can only happen through peace for the Palestinians

through a Palestinian state, he said.

More on the story in a minute.

But I'd like to check in and get your initial thoughts, Jake.

Yeah.

So first, on Netanyahu, I was led to believe that from the river

to the sea was a genocidal phrase.

In fact, I've condemned that phrase. I condemned it.

When Palestinians use it, I'm now going to contaminate when apparently the terrorist

Netanyahu uses it, saying that he's going to do a genocide and ethnic cleansing

from the river to the sea.

That's my understanding of the phrase from the river to the sea.

You just heard it with your own eyes and your own ears.

You heard him, okay? And you saw him.

So now it's not just him. Ben-Gvir.

The national security minister, says that they're going to drive the Gazans out.

Now, it all makes sense, actually. Why did they start in the North?

What led them to believe that there was more Hamas in the North?

And and what I said on the first day, which is why wouldn't

they just go to the South?

They've got tunnels, they just go, so what's the point of destroying the North?

You destroy the north first.

You push them into the south, now they're destroying the south.

They haven't slowed down at all by NASA to slow down.

Biden's the weakest man in the world. We'll get to that in a second.

So now their new plan is. Yeah, drive them into the Sinai desert.

And so and now he's making it clear and he says Two-state solution.

No way.

And so there will be no Palestinian state that's not a partner for peace.

That's not an ally.

So, okay, he says we get to say no, that's true.

They're independent country. They can say anything they like.

Right?

We also get to say no, it's unconscionable to send them any money,

$3.8 billion so that you could do genocide and ethnic cleansing?

Hell, no.

I mean, look, if they start driving them into the desert,

I'm considering stopping paying taxes.

I don't want my money going to ethnically cleanse people.

What?

I thought we said never again. What is this total, utter monster?

Okay, it's it's unconscionable to send them any money.

None. 000. But look at the pathetic Joe Biden.

He said. Oh, we're still trying to convince him.

Well, but you by asking pretty please. Is that your strategy?

That's the strategy you used with Joe Manchin is Joe Manchin slapped

him around like this, and now Netanyahu is slapping him around.

Anybody can slap you. I'll slap Biden around.

You'll lose her. You're at 33%.

You're going to lose to Trump to watch when he starts to slap you around.

I don't want that to happen.

But the guy is the weakest person in America.

So what are you going to do? He just told you, ha ha.

I'm not going to do a goddamn thing.

You say, I'm not going to do the two state solution,

and I'm going to drive into the desert.

Now, what are you going to do, Joe? And Joe's like, oh, pretty please.

Pretty pretty pretty.

Shut up. Do something, do something.

Are you the president of the United States or are you not?

This is ridiculous.

So there's there's no defense for any of this.

And and so but we'll continue. We won't do anything.

We won't do anything to oppose Netanyahu.

I don't know what happens when they actually.

I mean, look, the United Nations says the starvation has begun. 85%

of Gazans are already displaced, homeless.

And now 25% of them are starving. That's 500,000 people.

So America has blood all over its hands. It's because of Joe Biden.

It's because of all the politicians in Washington.

But now 60 have sent a letter. 60 Democrats saying, oh, come on, Jesus,

are we really going to support the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians?

LED by Jamie Raskin and Ayanna Pressley?

Bless their hearts, at least there's a pulse there,

but the rest is unconscionable.

- Ramesh. - Yeah.

Thank you.

I couldn't agree more with many of the things you just said there,

but I think, I mean, first and foremost, I just want to express how sort of powerless

I feel outside of attending protests and sharing my voice about this disastrous

situation and the sanctity and sacredness of all life, including our

brothers and sisters in Gaza right now, and our brothers and sisters in the West

Bank who are also being terrorized through a settler colonial project

that has existed for 80 plus years.

I think the question is, is if you kind of look around the world

at different countries, the vast majority of countries around the world,

the vast majority of Americans, believe it or not, just the vast majority

of all of us want this to end, want a ceasefire, want a cease fire now.

But if you look at how popular that opinion is versus who actually

has the actual leverage to stop this, it's just one person.

I mean, it's really just one administration from all I could glean,

which is President Biden and our government.

I mean, we are enabling and are complicit in, in this situation right now.

And you can't say you want a two state solution when you unconditionally back

a genocide occurring, to the poor Gazan people.

And you're not doing anything about it. So actions speak louder than words, right?

I mean, I'm not talking about I totally understand the illegitimacy

on certain levels of Hamas, but I'm wondering what a vision.

I just want to ask that question.

And, Ben, I want to hear your thoughts on this.

What is Biden's vision of a two state solution like?

Is there what vision is there that any of us could have of a two state solution

when one part of the two states has been utterly destroyed, all its

people increasingly are being displaced, and well over 10,000 children

have been murdered, you know, or killed.

Whether it's self-defense or not, I don't think it's self-defense.

It's deeply disproportionate.

So so it's sort of like if if it's our country and our leadership that has

the only leverage to end this, why is it that they're so insistent on continuing

to unconditionally support this genocide, yet state they want a two state vision.

So it's sort of like I have to question whether they want a two state vision,

and if so, what would that look like?

I'll be happy to answer that.

There's so many things I disagree with that both of you said that I would love

to to address all of them.

First of all, Rami, she just said, you understand in certain ways

the illegitimacy of Hamas, they're a terrorist organization that rapes people

as a, as a matter of of public policy and as the way to resist and get

the change they want rape and shoot nails into the vaginas of women

and take women and babies and children hostages and still holds them hostage.

So I'll respond to that. Sure.

So in some ways, you see the illegitimacy, I would say, in every damn way possible,

you should see the legitimacy.

You both called it a genocide. It is not a genocide.

The International Criminal Court will decide officially

whether they think it is or not.

It's a sham accusation. It's ridiculous.

Because it is. It is Israel defending itself.

I was just I got back yesterday from Israel.

I was there for ten days.

During the ten days that I was there, there were over approximately

170 missiles launched at Israel.

There were nine on the ground terrorist attacks.

There were Israelis murdered in the streets while I was there.

There were rockets that hit Tel Aviv near where I was.

I didn't have to seek shelter because it wasn't the exact part of Tel

Aviv I was in, but friends of mine did.

If you are at the mercy of a terrorist organization, at.

- The mercy, you mean. - The IDF as the terrorist?

No, I do not mean the IDF as a terrorist organization.

The IDF is defending itself against this genocidal monsters,

these genocidal monsters that are Hamas.

And it's well documented, and everybody understands that it's an

incredibly difficult situation with an incredibly unique set of circumstances, of

how densely populated it is, how monstrous Hamas is by using their own people

as human shields, by by putting all of.

We're still using that because it's a fact, Jake.

What you're still using is genocide and ethnic cleansing, neither of which

make any sense or hold the muster of fact.

It's absurd. It is not ethnic cleansing.

Because if you've ever been to Israel, have you been to Israel?

Why would I go to a barbarous country that imprisons five?

Million Palestinians and never lets them go and brutalizes them

murders them at every turn.

If you've been, why would I go to that country?

Are you insane? No one go to Israel.

You should never go to Israel until they end the occupation.

And then we love them and we go back.

It's an incredible nation, and it's the only democracy

in the Middle East that is democracy.

And you all the time use that as the example of why they should be held

to a different standard than Hamas.

You talk out of both sides of your mouth on this issue constantly.

You say there are democracy.

So that's why they have to be held to a different standard

than I call them a democracy.

And you laugh mockingly at the only democracy

that is our allies in that region.

It's so ridiculous and egregious.

And despite all of the evidence shown and all of the tactics that the IDF takes

under the advisement of what it needs to do to try to attain its objectives

militarily, it does a litany of things that no other nation does.

It's an average of 2.5 civilians killed, two military combatants, compared

to a typical, ratio of other wars.

That is much higher compared to American wars.

That's 10 to 1, 12 to 1. Yet those numbers do not bother you.

- You say that they don't bother me. - I did decade of shows against those.

Those those numbers don't affect your opinion of what's going on now.

I meant to say.

And you then also just make up that they're clearly trying to get the

Gazan people into Egypt and displace them. When that is not true.

There have been some insane statements from some elements

in the Israeli government that are not the official position of the government.

That is not what the statement of Netanyahu from.

The river to the sea said that.

He said from the river to the sea, they need to have control of their security.

But what are you talking about? Oh, that's.

Exactly what the Palestinians say when we say from the river to the sea.

They say it's political, but when it's a muslim.

Exactly. Not trying to.

Say, you know, they didn't actually do it when it's Israel,

when they're actually doing the genocide.

Ignorance. No, no, no.

From the river to the sea as they're in the middle of the genocide.

That is such a big deal.

- No big deal. - That is such an ignorant statement.

When, when, when the when the Palestinians say from the river to the sea,

they literally are saying without Jews and Israelis living there

and pushing them what they're saying because that's this, because that's.

Actually killing, because that's butchering, because.

That's why you've condemned the statement.

Theoretical statement on one side and on the other side.

- Why didn't you condemn butchery? - So why did you condemn the statement?

Because, you know, that's what it means. That's why you condemned it.

Why don't you condemn Netanyahu, that monster who jumped from the river.

To the sea, saying that they need to displace.

The Palestinians?

- You're the most biased man in America. - And I do and I do condemn Netanyahu.

Muslims can't say it, but the Israelis can say it all day long as they as they do it,

as they do it, they need they.

- Need to they. - Need as we.

Speak.

They need to disavow a fundamentalist belief that wants to kill all Jews

as a disease and not allow them to live.

That might not bother you, but it does bother me as an Israeli Jew, that's.

Such a weak, weak excuse.

And I'll tell you why. My people.

Please tell me. Yes, I'll tell you why.

Please.

Because you always hide like as if Israel is a tiny little country.

It is. And they're so defenseless.

Country. They're so.

Oh my God, they can't do anything against the all powerful Palestinians

who they imprison and take away their water power, electricity,

murdered them at all, at all terms, etc..

No no no no.

If someone was actually trying to kill the Jews, Ben, I would line up

in the front line with you.

- Are you crazy? - They just did that on October 7th.

Exactly. So you go and we talk.

About I was there. They just killed a bunch of people.

Why don't you care about Palestinian lives, Ben?

I do 24,000. Of course I. Do 10,000 children.

Of course you do care about them. You don't care about them at all.

Jake, you can shout all you like, but you are the one condemning them to murder.

- So why don't you care about their lives? - Condemning them to murder.

Condemning them to a never ending cycle?

No Palestinian is being Palestinian. Aid is being made to kill them.

Palestinians, you are condemning Palestinians to murder because every time

I suggest that you put any pressure or the world puts any pressure on Hamas

to stop, you say they're terrorists.

You can't ever tell them to stop.

So you can only tell Israel to stop, which, as you know, for a goddamn fact,

means that this war will end, Hamas will regroup, they will kill more Israelis,

and Israel will kill more Palestinians.

And that's what you want. That's what you're advocating.

For saying, Ben. That's exactly what you're asking.

I want a two state solution where you actually have peace.

So do I, but not Netanyahu.

Is a monster. It's a horrible statement he makes.

And that should not be the position. Terrorists.

Right. But, you know, not terrorists.

That's a terrorist.

He just said from the river to the sea and he's actually doing it.

He said, for 20 times the terrorists of Hamas be with you.

- If he actually encouraged doing. - It, then why do you need 48,000?

One person's been displaced out of Gaza, not.

- One insane. - Out of Gaza, not one.

Gaza, not one. It's squished.

But that's what you're saying. They're being bombed.

Bomb, bomb. That's what you're saying he's doing.

Why doesn't Egypt allow any refugees? Why?

Because that's the displacement. No more thickheaded.

Voluntary displacement like happens in every war at the beginning.

At the beginning of voluntary.

Did you just say that was a voluntary displacement?

What was the.

There's no end to the possibility of going into Egypt would be voluntary.

Like in the first month of the Ukraine-russia war,

5.9 million people were allowed in.

But for some reason, the guards and people's neighbors,

their fellow Muslims, don't allow them in.

Not one person. They condemn them to death.

That's the ethnic cleansing when you drive them from their homes during war.

- Temporary displacement. - One thing.

So, Ben, you, you and I agree that we have no support of or we don't

we don't we agree that the Netanyahu government is extremist

and is and is disproportionately violent.

Do you agree with that?

I agree they are extremists and I agree they are not a partner for peace

and I do not agree they are disproportionately okay.

I agree with that. No, let's.

- Let's proportion. - Is not a standard used in war.

You try to win a war.

- No it's not. - It's war.

- Crimes are all about that. - No, it is not about appropriate.

I'm curious how there can be a future with a government that has absolutely no

interest in a two state solution election.

- There can't be a there can't be. - But.

And how can that future even come to be when both the US is unconditionally

backing and the Netanyahu government because it has so much leverage,

because we're not.

- Only backing, it's not doubling. - Down on its extremist.

Policies.

Blinken is saying there needs to be two states that that.

Action.

- Show one piece of action. - One piece of action.

They convinced Netanyahu's government to do a temporary cease fire to release

Palestinian prisoners for hostages.

Those were positions he was not into, into agreeing to, and they convinced him those

are the things they convinced him to do.

So you can yell all you want, Jake, and you can sweat about it all you want.

Yahoo wasn't even going to do that deal where they released

their own hostage understanding.

That's correct. Yahoo is such a terrorist monster.

He wasn't going to release the Israeli hostages.

We had to talk him into it.

No, he had to talk him into releasing his own hostage, getting his hostages back.

- Congratulations to us. - Releasing.

We convinced to get their hostages back. But we.

Have to.

We have to understand that people in Gaza are trapped there.

They have no basic services and they're just being attacked writ large.

I understand. So how do you.

Suggest Hamas gets removed from power? What do you suggest?

- I have a no, no, no. - Hold on before.

Before. I have no defense of Hamas.

But I do want to understand in context how they came to be.

We do know they were democratically elected.

- I'm not saying exactly any. - Yeah.

So then do the people have any responsibility for that?

If the Israeli people have responsibility, are you in favor of terrorism?

Are you saying because Israel is a democracy, they're

responsible for the terrorist Netanyahu and they should be attacked?

But most people in Hamas civilians have no responsibility?

Yes.

I want them to vote the right way, both in in Gaza and in Israel.

But if you start saying the civilians have responsibility,

you're saying terrorism is okay.

Bears some degree of responsibility for its leaders.

That's what Hamas says. Ben.

- Be careful. - Jenkin Ben.

Half the population in Gaza was not even born right when they

when these folks were elected, all they've known is a world of cages and deprivation.

And education that makes them want to kill Jews as well.

I don't know how much of this is cages.

Oh, oh, Gaza is an open air prison, right? You wouldn't agree with that.

I mean, it's blockaded.

I mean, I it's it's all it was next to impossible in the times I've spent,

I've been in the Sinai.

So not in Israel, like full on full disclosure, but in the, the only way.

- In there many times. - Oh, no, I was invited to Gaza is.

About being there. I've been we can we can all read.

- We all have eyes. - I have no it's not about that.

It's so it's it's about trying to understand the situation and condition

within which Palestinians are living.

Right.

And trying to just sort of have some compassion for that.

I'm not I'm not calling compassion.

No, no, I'm not calling you anything. If you've noticed.

I appreciate it, nor am I you, but I have tons of compassion for them.

But I've been trying to explain forever these terms that get thrown around

despite as many times as you and I debate about this, Jake, and you don't have an

answer to this, then the next time I'm on, you still say ethnic cleansing.

It is not ethnic cleansing.

If the 2 million Arab Palestinians in Israel proper are treated

with full rights, it is simply the existential threat coming

from the government of the people in Gaza.

If you can't separate that, you can't ever have an intelligent conversation about it

that's going to ever evolve.

Okay, hold on, hold on. He's addressing me.

So, Ben, look, we've yelled at each other.

We've said nasty things about each other, including in this segment.

But let's be clear, okay?

So when you say that it's not ethnic cleansing

to drive 85% of the people of Gaza out of their home, that sounds ludicrous.

It's you might think it sounds fine and Israeli supporters might think,

oh yeah, I got 100 talking points and it sounds great to us, but the rest

of the world, I know you don't believe me, but the rest of the world goes.

That's not ethnic cleansing.

What the hell is ethnic cleansing if 80. If driving 85% of the people

out of their homes, destroying 70% of the buildings, punishment, right?

And now destroying the graves, which is the next story we're going to get to.

So if that's not ethnic cleansing, I don't know what your definition

of ethnic cleansing is while.

Trying to remove Hamas, who you will admit fortifies itself

in every bit of buildings.

I was just there.

I spoke off the record for over an hour or two battalion commanders who explained

that in 80% of homes they go into, there are weapons found,

there are Hamas properties found there.

- Tunnels under all kinds of homes. - To speak to Gazans who are suffering.

I wasn't able to get into Gaza. I know, because I did go to the West Bank.

- I did go to the. - West Bank, to Gaza.

- They would have probably killed you too. - I did go to those.

Same battalion commanders would have killed you just like they

killed the Israeli hostages.

And oh, you're walking around in Gaza.

Oops. I accidentally killed 24,000.

Does that not prove the fact that they've also killed their own people?

Does that not prove that it's just the incredibly dense facts of this area?

They're not. If they're so able.

To intentionally the exact opposite, they're not even asking.

They're not even asking, who are you?

Are you a threat? No. Just kill on, on.

Oh, damn it, it was Israelis. We meant to murder Muslims.

God damn it! We made a mistake.

I'm so.

Happy for you that you've never been in war and never had to deal with

the decision of in the moment, trying to.

Decide against shirtless guys. Cowards.

I went cowards, terrorists, heartless guys.

They asked him to take their shirts off to make sure they didn't have

the Israeli suicide belts on them.

The Israeli hostages that they had no shirts, they had a white flag.

And the IDF murdered them because they thought,

oh, good Muslims, let's kill them.

Oh damn it, it was Jews. We didn't, I. Tell you, visited.

We only meant to murder Muslims.

And I just visited wounded troops in a hospital in Israel.

Hospital that is still treating Palestinians were wounded as well as they

always do, because Israel actually acts with with morality in what it does.

And even when trying to take precautions going into areas.

This this young man was shot two that I spoke with, shot in both legs

while his commander was murdered.

Sitting there in a field when they're trying to murdered.

He was a commander in the battle. He died in battle.

Right? Okay.

Now, is that terrorism to being what, killed in battle?

It's being killed in battle. Terrorism.

Like you're saying he was murdered. He was killed in battle, right?

Well, which.

Terms are you going to use because you're calling it murder on one side.

So I'm going to call it murder on the other side.

No, murder is civilians when you murder civilians, right?

Not when you kill soldiers. Sure.

Okay.

Anyway, it's a small point. Keep going.

Sure.

So these people are trying to stop an existential threat

that has continued forever.

Do you think that only the Israeli people should suffer and fear forever?

Do you think?

Why do you laugh at that? Why do you laugh at that?

- Let me. - Say there were.

Nine last attacks while I was there. That's okay with you to continue forever.

So how does it stop?

So how does it stop a second? But Ramesh, you go.

And then I got to tell her how it actually stops.

Look, I real quick, I understand and I understand where you're coming from, Ben.

I mean, and I also don't claim to have the specific knowledge of being there,

but I do think it's important we understand where Hamas came from and how

these sets of actions are creating Hamas.

More and more Hamas, so to speak, and the recognition that there has been

a calculation made by the IDF and or the Israeli leadership that it's worth going

after this densely populated area, killing now 24,000 plus people, 10,000 of.

Which 9000 are Hamas fighters.

- So the calculation. - Was total IDF lie propaganda.

You believe Hamas numbers, you believe terrorist numbers.

- But that's what you. - Sign all the time.

- You cite it all the. - Time, right?

They are using Hamas numbers.

But either way, according to, you know, Hamas,

you go like this to me during a debate.

No, no, Hamas had been killed.

How many? None.

- Zero. - I trust the human.

Rights number is 9000.

No. So you accept numbers from the other side, yet you don't on the other side.

And you also and you also say, hold on. Very important.

For the record, you also say the world agrees.

The world does not agree.

Jamie Raskin, who you just cited, who I had coffee with just three weeks ago.

Also, as I agree with what he's now putting up to make sure that Gazans

do not get displaced, he also refused to to sign a cease fire.

Now, only agreement that didn't call, that didn't call for the release of hostages.

And the entire European Union just passed a non-binding resolution 312 to 131.

That's all they can pass is non-binding.

It's not their country to make sure that a cease permanent cease fire happens only

with the immediate unconditional release of all hostages and Hamas surrendering.

So a big part of the world agrees.

The only way to end this cycle of violence is for Hamas to stop.

Yet no one puts pressure.

Nobody puts pressure on the terrorists, only on the people being attacked

over and over and over again.

I just submit to you that the acts that the IDF have have committed

are also terrorist acts.

And I also submit to you that there's been a calculation made that

it's worth killing this many civilians to get this many Hamas members, whether

it's your stats or Jenks stats and.

No, no, no, but but but the but the war could be stopped right now

if Israel made a decision.

But but but what is it or not?

But what does it mean for Hamas to not surrender?

They're never going to surrender because they've been emboldened

by all the things that Israel has done.

- Their people are being. - Killed and they have no chance to win.

So why would they not surrender? Why would they not get to the solution?

Most countries in the world, guys, permanent.

- Guys, guys. - There's only release of hostages.

There's only. That's what I support.

That's what I support, but that's what I support.

Let me let me give you the actual with all.

That, except I don't think the Hamas surrender thing will.

Ever happen. What do we.

Even should be allowed to kill Israelis forever.

- And then. - Let me say what the damn answer is.

Go ahead. Okay, so.

Okay, look, guys, there's only one way that this ends.

Number one, America has to put tremendous pressure on Israel.

Take all the money away instantly. Number two, the Israeli people.

I believe in their morality and their decency.

Please, I'm begging you, Israeli people. Okay.

Vote Netanyahu and the right wing government

now put in Benny Gantz or whoever it is, and go towards a two state solution.

So now how do you get the two state solution so that Israel can

be safe and can live in peace?

The whole point of Israel was for the Jews to be safe,

because they've been slaughtered across the world for time immemorial.

I agree was supposed to be a safe haven. So how do you do it?

You get somebody, whether it's Benny Gantz or not, to go and work with

the Palestinian Authority, the Palestinian Authority, at that point putting pressure

on Palestinians, not Hamas, because Hamas is never going to bend to

pressure, but Palestinian Authority can.

That is a reasonable way to go.

You get the entire Arab world and America to put pressure on

the Palestinian Authority to do a peace deal with the Israeli government,

and that's the two state solution.

Then you take the Palestinian Authority and you put them in Gaza and say,

hey, they just got you a state.

- The problem they. - Just many Gazans don't respect the.

No, I. Know, I know. Hold on, hold on, hold on.

I will throw them off rooftops again like they did in 2007.

Listen, listen.

No, Hamas of course, is going to fight Palestinian Authority.

That gives you that gives you a sense that maybe you could do a deal

with the Palestinian Authority, and so will they try to throw

them off the rooftops, of course.

But that's why the Saudis, the Jordanians, the Americans

all have to help the Palestinian Authority establish that authority in Gaza.

And to your point, Ramesh, will they have credibility going in?

No, because right now they look like they work with the occupiers in the West Bank.

But if they were able to deliver a Palestinian state, then they would have

the credibility to be able to do the.

Deal in dignity, in peace, of course, with medical care, of course with health.

- Do Israelis, of course. - Of course they do.

So everybody, every human, every human being has should have that right?

Right. Yes.

That's what we should protect at all costs, not the killing of people.

It's not a question. I'm just saying one last thing.

Okay?

Look, Ben, do not misinterpret all the yelling back.

I'm irate over the deaths of those Palestinians

and how they have greatly suffered.

I was irate over October 7th, and now I'm irate over this.

And yes, this is 20 times the numbers, etc. but Ben, we are not.

The number one reason I'm angry at Israel is not just because they're, you know,

brutalizing the Palestinians, but because they are going further away from peace

and security, because this is going to just lead to more war and more anger

and more terrorism and more violence.

It's never going to stop until until you make a deal.

And if you say, hey, they blew it in the past and we've had that debate,

I got you, I got you. Today's a new day.

Go to the Palestinian Authority.

Now Hamas has no power or even any respect, as Ramesh said.

So the problem there being you can't make a peace deal

with people who aren't in power.

You need to remove Hamas from we never said power, but Palestinian Authority

has no respect or even any standing.

- So you're being. - No that's true.

- They have no. - It could be any.

- It could be any. - Well, you don't want to deal then.

You don't want do.

But the only way this works is you remove the Netanyahu government with elections

way out of town, and you remove Hamas.

You must do both. You must do both.

That's why the European Union agrees with that.

Okay. Yes.

You guys decide what you think is realistic.

We'll be right back. Thanks for watching the video, guys.

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