Jeff Booth Interview: Bitcoin - the Price of Today! A must hear interview on the key to our future

Summary

In this insightful discussion, host James interviews Jeff Booth, author of 'The Price of Tomorrow,' who offers profound insights into the intersection of technology, finance, and the global economic system. Booth argues that technology-driven deflation and the current inflationary monetary system are on a collision course, with significant implications for wealth, power, and societal structures. He advocates for Bitcoin as a transformative solution, providing a path to a more equitable and abundant future, while warning of the potential pitfalls of centralized digital currencies and the importance of understanding the true nature of money and economic systems.

Takeaways

• 📚 Jeff Booth's book 'The Price of Tomorrow' is regarded as a seminal work that provides insights into the intersection of technology and finance, suggesting a future where technology drives down prices, conflicting with traditional inflationary economic models.
• 💡 The conversation emphasizes the transformative impact of exponential technological growth on various industries, which is often misunderstood due to its rapid pace and the human difficulty in comprehending such swift changes.
• 🌐 Booth discusses the paradox where technology should enhance productivity and reduce costs, yet the current financial system is predicated on constant growth, leading to wealth concentration and societal divides.
• 🏦 The interview touches on the potential collapse of credit and financial systems if governments cease monetary easing, highlighting the fragility of economies heavily reliant on stimulus.
• 📉 There's a critique of central banking and monetary policy, suggesting that continuous easing leads to wealth transfer from the middle class to the wealthy, potentially fueling social unrest.
• 🏁 Booth suggests that Bitcoin represents a 'third door' or alternative system that could disrupt the current financial paradigm by offering a decentralized, deflationary monetary system.
• 🌱 The discussion highlights the importance of getting 'off zero' with Bitcoin, meaning that even a small investment can be a significant step towards financial sovereignty and protection against economic instability.
• 🏘️ There's a warning about the inflated housing market, suggesting that it's propped up by monetary policy and could be at risk if the stimulus-driven demand fades or changes.
• 🌐 The interviewees agree that Bitcoin and related technologies might be the key to solving systemic issues like climate change, by allowing for a more efficient allocation of resources and a shift away from perpetual growth models.
• ⏳ There's a call to action for individuals to educate themselves about Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies, as they might offer protection and opportunities in the face of economic uncertainty and potential systemic collapse.

Q & A

What is the main theme of the book 'The Price of Tomorrow' by Jeff Booth?

The main theme of 'The Price of Tomorrow' is the conflict between two systems: one driven by technology that leads to deflation, making things cheaper and more abundant, and the other, the existing financial system, which is designed to create inflation and requires constant growth.

How does Jeff Booth describe the impact of technology on pricing?

Jeff Booth explains that technology makes everything cheaper by increasing efficiency and productivity, which should naturally lead to deflation. However, this is at odds with the current financial system that is built on the premise of inflation.

What does Jeff Booth suggest is the relationship between exponential growth in technology and our financial systems?

Jeff Booth suggests that the exponential growth in technology is creating a deflationary force that is colliding with our inflationary financial systems, leading to a paradox where technology should be making things more affordable, but the financial system requires constant growth and inflation.

How does the concept of exponentiality relate to the current economic systems discussed by Jeff Booth?

Exponentiality, as discussed by Jeff Booth, refers to the rapid growth and advancement in technology that is outpacing our ability to comprehend and adapt. This leads to a fundamental shift in economic systems, as the traditional models are not equipped to handle the rate of change and the potential for abundance that technology promises.

What does Jeff Booth argue about the role of central banks in the current economic climate?

Jeff Booth argues that central banks are caught in a paradox where they must continue to stimulate the economy through measures like quantitative easing to prevent a deflationary spiral, despite the fact that such measures are at odds with the deflationary forces brought about by technological advancements.

How does Jeff Booth view the potential of Bitcoin in the context of the current financial and technological landscape?

Jeff Booth sees Bitcoin as a potential solution or 'third door' to the problems caused by the collision of technological deflation and financial inflation. He views it as a way to transition to a system that can handle the abundance created by technology without the need for constant inflation.

What is the significance of the 'bridge' analogy used by Jeff Booth in relation to Bitcoin?

The 'bridge' analogy signifies the transition from the current financial system to one that is more aligned with technological progress. Bitcoin is seen as a foundational element of this bridge, paving the way for a new economic paradigm that can support and encourage innovation and abundance.

How does Jeff Booth respond to the idea that Bitcoin could be manipulated by large entities or governments?

Jeff Booth acknowledges the possibility of manipulation but suggests that such attempts would be short-lived and would ultimately fail due to the decentralized and resilient nature of Bitcoin, which is designed to operate outside of traditional financial controls.

What advice does Jeff Booth give to individuals who are not yet invested in Bitcoin?

Jeff Booth advises individuals to 'get off zero' by acquiring some Bitcoin, even if it's a small amount. This allows them to participate in the emerging system and understand its potential, rather than being left behind as the transition to a new financial paradigm occurs.

How does Jeff Booth perceive the current state of Bitcoin adoption and its future trajectory?

Jeff Booth perceives the current state of Bitcoin adoption as still in its early stages, comparing it to the early days of the internet. He believes that as more people and businesses recognize the value and necessity of Bitcoin, adoption will accelerate, leading to a broader transition to a new economic system.

Outlines

00:00

📚 Introduction to the Interview and 'The Price of Tomorrow'

The interview begins with the host expressing gratitude to the audience for joining and introducing Jeff Booth, a visionary leader with extensive experience in technology and startups. The host mentions Booth's book, 'The Price of Tomorrow,' which is highly regarded as a potentially groundbreaking work. The conversation aims to explore Booth's insights on the intersection of technology, financial markets, and the global economy. Booth discusses his motivations for writing the book, driven by the need to address systemic issues and help others understand the world's current state.

05:01

🌐 The Clash of Systems: Technology vs. Traditional Economics

Jeff Booth elaborates on the core thesis of his book, explaining the conflict between technological advancement, which tends to reduce prices and increase efficiency, and traditional economic systems designed for growth and inflation. He uses the metaphor of folding a piece of paper to illustrate the concept of exponential growth and its difficulty for humans to comprehend. The discussion touches on how this clash affects various aspects of society, including wealth distribution and the potential for missed opportunities in recognizing and adapting to technological changes.

10:03

💸 Monetary Policy and Its Impact on Technology and Innovation

The conversation delves into the relationship between inflationary monetary policies and technological progress. Booth argues that the current financial system, which relies on constant growth, is at odds with the deflationary tendencies of technology. He discusses the paradox where technology should be beneficial by increasing efficiency and reducing costs, but the monetary system requires continuous expansion, leading to wealth concentration and potential societal unrest. The discussion also touches on the role of central banks and the challenges they face in managing the economy amidst these opposing forces.

15:04

🌿 The Role of Bitcoin as a Response to Financial Repression

Booth and the host discuss the emergence of Bitcoin as an alternative to traditional financial systems. They explore how Bitcoin can serve as an 'escape valve' from financial repression imposed by governments and central banks. The conversation considers the potential for Bitcoin to provide a more stable and decentralized monetary system, allowing for greater individual freedom and control over wealth. Booth also addresses the challenges and criticisms of Bitcoin, including its volatility and energy consumption.

20:05

🌱 The Emergence of a New Economic Paradigm

The discussion shifts towards the potential for a new economic paradigm, one that embraces the deflationary and efficiency-enhancing aspects of technology. Booth suggests that as people become more aware of the limitations of the current system, they may increasingly turn to alternatives like Bitcoin. He emphasizes the importance of education and understanding the underlying technological and economic forces at play. The host and Booth also touch on the potential societal changes that could accompany a shift towards a more technologically integrated and decentralized financial system.

25:06

🌟 The Inevitability of Bitcoin and Its Global Impact

Booth shares his views on the inevitability of Bitcoin and its potential to reshape the global financial landscape. He discusses the network effects driving Bitcoin's adoption and the increasing recognition of its value as a hedge against traditional financial system risks. The conversation also covers the potential for Bitcoin to serve as a catalyst for broader technological and societal changes, including the democratization of financial services and the promotion of individual economic empowerment.

30:07

🏛️ The Future of Money and the Potential for a Monetary Revolution

In this segment, Booth and the host contemplate the future of money, with a focus on the potential for a monetary revolution led by Bitcoin. They discuss the growing awareness and acceptance of Bitcoin as a store of value and means of exchange, and the implications this has for traditional financial institutions. The conversation also explores the potential challenges and resistance that may arise as the shift towards Bitcoin and decentralized finance gains momentum.

35:08

🌱 Final Thoughts and the Path Forward

The interview concludes with final thoughts from Jeff Booth on the importance of understanding the current financial and technological landscape, and the need for individuals to educate themselves about Bitcoin and its potential implications. Booth emphasizes the transformative potential of Bitcoin and the importance of being open to new ideas and systems. The host thanks Booth for his insights and encourages the audience to continue exploring the topics discussed and to consider the role of Bitcoin in their own financial strategies.

Keywords

💡Exponentiality

Exponentiality refers to the rapid increase or growth of something at an accelerating rate. In the context of the video, it is used to describe the way technology advances, doubling in capability and impact over time. The script discusses how this concept is difficult for humans to grasp, as exemplified by the analogy of a piece of paper being folded to represent exponential growth. The concept is central to understanding the impact of technology on the economy and society.

💡Deflation

Deflation is an economic phenomenon where the general price level of goods and services decreases over time. In the video, deflation is discussed in relation to technological advancements, which tend to reduce the cost of production and increase efficiency, thus leading to lower prices. The script contrasts deflationary pressures from technology with inflationary monetary policies, highlighting a fundamental conflict between technological progress and traditional economic systems.

💡Inflation

Inflation is the rate at which the general level of prices for goods and services is rising, and subsequently, the purchasing power of currency is falling. The video discusses how inflation is often a result of monetary policies, such as quantitative easing, which can lead to an increase in the money supply. The script suggests that inflation is a symptom of an economic system that requires constant growth, which is at odds with the deflationary effects of technology.

💡Quantitative Easing

Quantitative easing is a monetary policy in which a central bank purchases government securities or other securities from the market to increase the money supply and encourage lending and investment. In the video, the concept is mentioned as a tool used by governments to stimulate economic growth. However, the script also implies that this can lead to artificial inflation and distort the natural economic forces that technology would otherwise influence.

💡Bitcoin

Bitcoin is a decentralized digital currency that operates on a peer-to-peer network without the need for a central authority. Throughout the script, Bitcoin is presented as a potential solution to the issues caused by traditional financial systems. It is seen as a 'lifeboat' in the coming economic storm and a way to hedge against inflation. The video suggests that Bitcoin could provide a more stable and deflationary monetary system that aligns with technological advancements.

💡Scarcity and Abundance

Scarcity and abundance are economic concepts that refer to the availability of resources relative to demand. In the video, scarcity and abundance are discussed in the context of how they influence economic systems and human behavior. The script argues that technology drives towards abundance by reducing costs and increasing efficiency, while traditional monetary systems create scarcity to maintain value. This dichotomy is central to the discussion on the future of economies and the role of Bitcoin.

💡Climate Change

Climate change is a long-term change in the Earth's climate and weather patterns. The video connects climate change with economic systems, suggesting that inflationary policies that require constant growth contribute to environmental degradation. The script implies that a shift towards a deflationary system, potentially facilitated by Bitcoin, could align economic incentives with sustainable practices and help address climate change.

💡Central Bank Digital Currencies (CBDCs)

CBDCs are digital forms of a country's currency, which are developed and issued by the country's central bank. In the video, CBDCs are discussed as potential tools for increased government control over money and financial transactions. The script expresses concern that CBDCs could exacerbate existing economic issues and lead to a dystopian future where individual financial freedoms are severely curtailed.

💡Hyperbitcoinization

Hyperbitcoinization is a term used to describe a hypothetical future scenario where Bitcoin becomes the dominant global currency. The video suggests that as people recognize the limitations of traditional financial systems and the value of a decentralized, deflationary currency like Bitcoin, there could be a mass adoption leading to hyperbitcoinization. This concept is tied to the idea of a paradigm shift in how societies perceive and use money.

💡Monetary Policy

Monetary policy refers to the actions of a central bank or other authorities that determine the size and rate of growth of the money supply, which in turn affects interest rates. The video discusses how current monetary policies, designed to stimulate economic growth through inflation, conflict with the deflationary trends driven by technology. The script suggests that a reevaluation of monetary policy is necessary to align with technological advancements.

Highlights

Jeff Booth discusses the intersection of technology and finance, emphasizing how technology reduces costs while the current financial system is designed to create inflation.

Booth's book 'The Price of Tomorrow' is introduced as a pivotal read for understanding the economic systems clashing in the modern world.

The concept of exponentiality in technology is explored, with examples like the folding paper analogy to illustrate the difficulty of comprehending rapid growth.

Booth explains the paradox where technology should make things cheaper, but the financial system demands constant growth, leading to a wealth transfer issue.

The conversation touches on the role of central banks and the potential consequences of halting economic stimulus, leading to a deflationary spiral.

Kathy Wood's investment strategy and her belief in deflation are analyzed in the context of the current economic climate.

Booth argues that continuous money printing leads to wealth transfer from the middle class to the rich, exacerbating societal divides.

The idea that in a deflationary world, people might not spend due to increasing savings power is challenged by Booth's perspective on human consumption behavior.

Booth and the host debate the sustainability of perpetual low-interest rates and the impact on global economies.

The potential for a global currency war and the role of China's digital currency in international politics are examined.

Booth predicts that Bitcoin represents a third door or alternative to the current financial system, offering a path away from monetary manipulation.

Central Bank Digital Currencies (CBDCs) are critiqued for their potential to increase state surveillance and control over citizens' financial activities.

The interview concludes with a discussion on the importance of Bitcoin as a hedge against financial repression and the potential for a dystopian future under unchecked monetary policy.

Transcripts

so hello everybody thank you so much for

joining i am

this this guy i'm so honored to be here

with jeff booth uh he is a visionary

leader lives at the forefront of a whole

bunch of technologies whole bunch of

startups

uh has been through a whole bunch of

financial crises understands

so much about the world in which we are

in today and i want to pick his mind uh

he wrote a book uh called the price of

tomorrow and not only myself but many

people believe this is the book of the

century so if you don't have it there'll

be a link below and please follow him on

twitter as well um and he's been

published interviewed by pretty much

everybody on earth but i'm hoping we can

pull a few extract a few nuggets from

this man's brilliant mind so

jeff how are you today

wow i'm great thanks for having me james

but uh i i hope i live up to your

introduction oh no well i'm very honored

to be with you because uh first of all

we're kind of aligned in many ways i i

do this to give back and help educate

people to not only preserve wealth but

also grow it and manage risk

and i think you spend a lot of your time

your mission seems to be helping others

helping others wake up to what's going

on in the world today is that fair to

say

yeah it's fair it's fair to say i it's

probably it's when when you have

everything you need

what do what do you do and and and so

when

and as an entrepreneur typically what an

entrepreneur does is try to innovate to

try to create value for other people

and so when i looked at this system

level problem that we're talking about

um and i can i was seeing no fixes for a

system level problem and not people i

had to do something so

so but thank you so speaking of your

book

so for the audience i know many people

will hopefully most have read it those

that haven't they have to order it and

literally it will change the way you

look at the world but the price of

tomorrow

could you summarize it for a

ten-year-old in two to three sentences

sure

um technology makes everything cheaper

um we live in a world that is designed

differently and must make prices go up

and so you have two systems colliding

against each other

in the existing system that we're in and

we measure everything by

we can't see the other system

and so it's it so it provides and and

if i expand on that a little bit more so

uh the um

just about every problem in the world

that we think is a problem is a

derivative of that of that of that fight

two systems fighting each other and you

have to ask yourself

um is technology

going to keep on reducing prices is it

going to give you more

and what would the corresponding system

do to try to stop that

yeah i love that this

related to that part of what's driving a

lot of this is the whole area of

exponentiality and that's really hard to

wrap your head around unless you

sit and nearly meditate and think about

it you know so i know one of your

favorite books is

exponential organizations by salim

ismail

but understanding exponentiality is not

easy i know people look at you know the

iphone generations getting better and

better but one example that i heard from

you in the past was

kind of we are in the 34th fold kind of

everybody out there if you imagine a nap

napkin or a piece of paper being folded

four times it becomes you know one

centimeter thick

but

doubling something 29 times beyond that

you know increases it by a factor of

about 540 million i hope i got some of

these numbers right but can you help

people understand

this exponentiality and how it relates

to money

in today's world

so so if we first start on and remember

the two different systems that operate

exactly diametrically opposed so in the

one system driven by technology

that exponential

that doubling and if you fold a piece of

paper on itself 50 times it'll reach the

sun

but but in the early folds it feels like

nothing it's a couple inches and when

people and and even people who are

listening to this once they hear the

parlor

they'll think it's a parlor trick and

they'll go check on google is that true

and they'll tell their friends and they

will all think now i understand

exponentiality

and they don't and i don't because it's

it's hard for our brains to wrap a wrap

around that type of growth

yet it's the world we live in

and and it's moving at that speed so if

if it's moving at that speed and people

are looking at artificial intelligence

or self-driving cars and everything else

and they're looking backwards against

the trend

looking forwards it's doubling and it's

doubling again it's low and and so if

you think about how that connects to an

inflationary monetary system or how the

way we work and everything else we are

like very likely to miss it

very likely to when and why most people

miss technology

that most people miss to the internet

most people miss alt the iphone compared

to blackberry most people miss it

is because of the same thing it's moving

on this curve and they can't project the

future at that rate

and and and so

and entrepreneurs are typically really

good at this and timing

timing this so you have in one system

you have a system that is giving that

massive productivity to the world our

our podcast right now

is is essentially free to deliver this

content to the world the education is

free as a byproduct there's

certification is not free but educate

and this is coming into every industry

as it's it's driving as a base layer

into industry and it's moving faster and

faster and faster or exponential

but it's connected to a system that

cannot allow that that abundance to

transfer broadly to us

because if you allow

deflation in a in an inflationary system

then their credit that this system is

built on

collapses and you have a deflationary

spiral and what that deflationary spiral

would wipe out all credit

so you have this paradox

on one hand technology should be really

good for us and it should be saving our

time everywhere and we should be getting

more for less but the paradox is we're

measuring it from a system that requires

a system that we live in to grow forever

so that means more jobs higher

higher pay and a transfer of wealth from

from middle class and poor to the rich

and then then the transfer keeps going

and that transfer of power to government

to make all decisions that's kind of

where we are in the system caused by two

systems colliding each to each other

and and

and well it's easy to look at

as a system level problem and blame

people like the fed or

or anybody else in the system

what

if you yourself

missed if you didn't hold apple or so if

you didn't hold apple from the beginning

to where it is now

um or amazon from five dollars to where

it is now

or or

you're you're making the same mistake

and you didn't hold those because you

misunderstood the what what's happening

with technology underneath if you

misunderstood it's easy we think we we

can and everybody else can't

so why would it be any different for a

central banker

why would it be any different for

anybody in an existing system that grew

up an entire system and is measuring

that system

to misunderstand what's happening with

technology it's normal yeah that's

pretty you you've brought me down a

different path that i was going to take

this but

it's it's always such a way you you see

so many profound things that are really

hard

to wrap your head around but they

trigger more questions so let's double

click into that whole

deflation story so technology drives

deflation things get better cheaper

faster etc

investing whether it's money printing or

people investing whatever chasing fewer

goods drives inflation

now

kathy woods kathy wood invests in

disruption

and she's a big believer in deflation

but it's not happening at the rate she

thought it would

so can you help us figure out this

conundrum and if you look at like her

tech stock choices they've gotten

hammered this year so far because she

placed the bet on deflation and

deflationary forces

and i don't know if she's admitted it

yet but she hasn't seen the level of

inflation that we actually have and

lived through today which i see

continuing like her and i agree on

everything except for this one point

this is by the way this is actually the

problem that people get caught in and

they're measuring a time period that is

too short and so just ask yourself to

simplify that question to simplify that

question what would happen today

if all governments around the world

stopped easing

yeah the gdp would tank

immediately

growth growth rates growth of gdp would

tank and and all credit would collapse

yeah

and it would so it would you would have

a deflationary spiral that would be

picking up speed and ever and and it

would it would accelerate

until the kind of

the the laws of nature fell to the

actual pace to where what's actually

happening today so you have these two

systems working

against each other one requires more and

more stimulus on a greater curve

offsetting

what's happening to deflationary and

pressure underneath but we don't see it

because we're measuring from the system

that's that's offsetting that deflation

so you have to ask yourself remove the

the artificial stimulus

and what would the world look like

so that's what kathy is saying now

double click on that

if you keep on artificially stimulating

qe

you're actually robbing productivity

from the market

because you're transferring to

government and government has to get

bigger and bigger and bigger and you're

removing the free market

and it's subpar for for so there's less

and less industry

that can can move also because prices

are being pushed up

naturally

businesses must even in the short term

you don't see even because supply chains

get havoc and everything else but

businesses must to compete remove labor

faster

so you these two systems moving further

and further apart

and what kathy is missing

is and and so the more you stay more you

try to drive that inflationary

environment the more you're actually

feeding the deflationary one

and then in and now the question is

timing the question is

so today prices went up in the in the

stock market why they go up in the stock

market is because china's easing to be

able to save evergrand and everything

else would be the cascading collapse and

wherever the easing is in the world it

has to find itself back into the

monetary system

no matter no matter where

and so

what's what's happening

as a result of that no matter where it

is we're measuring the system

from the system

and and you just to be able to clear

that in your mind what would happen what

would the net what would the market look

like without manipulation

exactly so that is a pleasure and so

what kathy is what kathy is is

essentially

wrong or missed timing on

is

when this pushes up so high

that it moves into deflationary

environment anyways or the only way to

save the inflationary

environment

is to capture all control and government

and keep going

so

again

front another question so imagine if

there was a deflationary world

would there be any incentive for people

to spend because in a true deflationary

world

you know what drives the economy if cash

savings grow and purchasing power is

free forever

i love that question because it starts

to double click again

our brains don't hang on to concepts

that that we haven't seen before

it's new it's novel and what i'm saying

is going to be really hard to hang on to

because you don't have a pattern

developed in the world that hasn't

reinforced on that pattern it's like

it's like you hear every conversation in

a room even if you're just talking to me

but if somebody else does your name

you'll tune into their conversation

what this conversation is like is all

the other conversations in the room

until you've heard it enough times

because yeah and and so so so

from that

will people purchase now ask yourself is

uh uh uh

that that question

would you purchase a new iphone

even though that you know

there's gonna be a better one the next

year

of course you would

would would you purchase food if you

know that there could be more food next

year of course you would would you

purchase a tv would you put yours it's a

whole bunch of things purchasing might

go down

but

and it might go down because we'll buy

the things we need more

but it but it'll

to to believe that inflation is required

for purchasing

is essentially this if you double click

on that

the only reason i purchase

is because somebody's stealing my money

it's insane productivity productivity in

the in the world the product product

productive economy doesn't require theft

and so if you steal my money faster i'll

i'll purchase more that may be true

today in the world we live in from the

system we live in today because people

but but even that

is becoming less and less true because

the purchasing isn't going into things

it's going into assets

that are that are destroying a

productive economy

to be able to capture

essentially save more purchasing power

for later through assets

yeah unbelievable so let's

related to that if you take

the mathematical certainty i've heard

you saying these terms before

and when i look at the scenario of money

money printing and talk about the fed or

central banks all over the world or

china easing

um there is that gdp tipping point you

probably heard about it before i think

was from the world bank the 77 percent

magic number basically if a an economy

borrows more than 77 of gdp

they can't

escape

there's no no longer any escape

philosophy to get out of that because

the servicing of that debt will eat away

at the gdp

so what do you think about that and

it is the only way i think i think you

know the answer to the question is to

just to keep on money printing and to

keep the cost of debt servicing down

which means we live in a stage of

perpetual low interest rates going

forward from here with

quantitative easing that's managed some

way or another

again the this is

why these are hard to see is people

people don't think in systems uh they

think in individual parts of a system

and it's hard to see the whole system

so if you if you think about

let's let's go through the options today

so the options from central banking from

the system

globally

door one

let the free market work

that would have a deflationary

depression

and and it wouldn't be the deflation i'm

talking about in in the book where

productivity is is broadly transferred

to society it would be a debt deflation

like the great depression on steroids

but because the entire system is built

on that debt

every bank would fail there would be no

food on shelves there would be it would

be

an into that vacuum

would rise dictators

and that's the 280 over 70 280 trillion

of debt

servicing the global 70 trillion of gdp

exactly exactly so so if you let if you

let that

credit if you let that system because

it's based on credit if you allow

deflation the credit explodes in value

or certainly it codes in pre and you can

never re-service that credit so it gets

wiped out you have a credit crisis but

the system is credit

and it keeps on unwinding

so people that think they have money in

the bank that's actually a credit in in

instrument the banks close

and it um and it keeps on unwinding

we're number one unfortunately but

that's where we are door number two

is

ease forever

but easing forever by by by lowering

lowering interest rates pretending i'm

going to raise them one day but having

to lower them again even what's

happening today right the the head fakes

on on raising them but having to lower

them perpetually forever because the

credit must grow forever to protect an

inflationary environment which is

exactly against the

kind of where technology is going

by doing that

you transfer a whole bunch of wealth

from the middle class and poor to the

rich

and and

and because there's way more middle

class and poor number of people

they rise up against the rich

or elect other people to be able to say

it's the rich's fault to be able to to

do this and you have you have a turning

of society because the many away the few

and what ends up happening is is you

change leaders in a system that must

still manipulate money to protect the

system

to make it worse but they create a whole

bunch of

essentially us versus them through that

system

which which resets typically if you look

at the long arc of history

through revolution and war essentially i

need get elected by turning one par part

of my population the bigger part of my

population against the smaller part of

my population

and then to stay elected i need to

create a bigger enemy outside of my

gates

and so that's what that's what these

resets look like throughout

kind of the long arc of history but the

problem is we've never had that reset

that type of reset

with

the weapons of destructions and where

technology is going today

so and that global conflict that would

arise from that type of is a pretty

scary

thing to think of and worse

we don't see it coming

we're

i've said this often on a couple other

podcasts but it's it's really important

when you think about hitler rising into

power because of the same

hyperinflationary environment that was

created

and who he turned to the population

against

but you you can see kind of that what

happens throughout uh through throughout

this cycle but worse than that is we all

believe

our minds don't change and and and

we understand the truth perfectly but

nobody else does

what ends up happening through that

manipulation is people are turned

against other people and if you ask

yourself

forget about hitler

how did the entire how did an entire

population not stand up and do something

about

about that when you created the trust of

the atrocities to other people

and then they they either helped

or stayed silent

and that is unfortunately human nature

in a system

that requires manipulation

we get manipulated

and so we will some of these things have

really profound implications for where

the world's going because when you have

corruption and money as a result of

having corruption and money you must

have corruption everywhere in society

so those are door number one door number

two

and so what you have today is is you

have

government's trying to run financial

repression

and and inflate so your real dollars are

going uh going down in va in in value

and they're trying to hold you into a

system

to to run that financial

uh repression

in in the

i think in the 40s it worked for the us

but the u.s was a superpower at that

time and there wasn't another challenger

today when it that's how that's

happening with china and the bank and

everything else and the type of global

conflicts that are going to rise from

that it's not possible

plus

you have bitcoin that is an escape valve

from that

from that financial repression so it's

really hard to lock people into into

currencies why people don't see it is

because they measure everything in the

currency they're denominated in exactly

they buy more houses they buy more

everything else that and some people are

getting so rich by that experiment

i leverage up i buy more assets

they don't see the next wave of this

when revolution comes to take that asset

back or politicians take it back and

redistribute distribute it

so or they have no comprehension of a 15

hurdle rate for example

exactly

so they think they're getting richer

when in fact they're getting poorer and

created and creating the divide of

society

and they in a lot of those people

think it's because of their brilliance

that they're getting richer

in in real estate when and as rents are

going up and

you're pushing pain on more of society

and then those people in society go and

elect people that say

i got an idea

let's do ubi

right and i'm going to push up prices

higher

and transfer more wealth because where

does the money come from in the first

place and so i'm going to pick your

pocket more to give you uh give you a

working wage to push prices up higher so

that's where we are in this system

and so there's only really those two

doors except say and we can go into

bitcoin but the bitcoin is is the first

time in history that we've had a third

door so so speaking of door number one

and door number two so when they talk

about threatening tapering or raising

interest rates they're just playing with

our heads or

will they reduce by 12 and a half

percent for a couple of months and then

wait for an

external event and then increase

quantitative easing again

yeah so so

so again when we get to these things and

in in in your in all of this

the simplest thing to say if you just

don't

is

all of this creates more instability in

a system

and more instability in us because we're

in that system

as we look around to try to figure out

what's going on

your podcast is probably so valuable

because you interview people on this and

so and people are looking for what's

going on and is creating more and more

instability and people are

you you've probably seen me say this

which snowflake causes the avalanche

um and people are people are trying to

measure which snowflake

and they're in their grasping at this

and this and they're all over the place

the simplest thing to say is

the system demands

more easing

that will create more instability in a

system and i don't know at what time

brings the whole thing

down it could be anything there's more

and more snowflakes gathering all the

time

so you touched on ubi i didn't expect to

go down the ubi path but do you believe

it's a foregone conclusion

i think if you just simply say

there's more of them more people being

left out

than than than today that are that are

in um

that

they have not outnumber the house

and and

the fed will be

merged

with treasury

over over time as as rules change

because because the many will elect

people will that will will create a

populist movement that's

highly likely all over the world

and i noticed a very funny stat just

yesterday that

the percentage of gdp of external debt

total debt of usa and canada is exactly

the same percentage did you ever notice

that 141 percent i didn't notice that no

it's 140 is it rigged or canada and the

us and cahoots right now

if you think about it it's canada is a

is a raw materials uh

base most of the exports kind of

raw materials

and you print money

then raw materials go up in relation

yeah it's like i ran i ran a scenario i

looked at some uh treasury numbers that

looked at the increase of household

wealth

but since basically january 2020 and

today

and you looked at the amount of

quantitative easing the 40 increase of

the money supply and that directly

translated to increasing household

wealth the problem is in the top nine to

top one percent get it it doesn't it

doesn't trickle down and that's that's

where we're stuck so let's um because if

you think about that too and and so

inflation yeah the other side of the

coin for inflation is wage deflation yep

right so it's it's it's a so if you have

savings or you're working for wages

your real income is going down

and so no wonder

it and the more assets you have the more

of the transfer

exactly you touched on china as well and

china as you know has more ust bills

treasury bills than the u.s balance

sheet

so and china has started selling t-bills

to other nations is there concern china

will become the dominant currency

especially with the digi-1 coming

forward what do you envision

um

so so i think it was in 2016

china realized that uh that the u.s

wasn't going to pay their back their

loans essentially uh vendor financing

um as as as you and it was a decent

trade the u.s

to keep interest rates low

china bought u.s currency

bonds um because if interest rates went

up at that at the time

then uh then the u.s would have

collapsed and and and china would have

subsequently collapsed too purchasing

nation exporting nature nation

and so but about 2016 i think maybe 2015

china stopped buying the the

the t-bills and said wait this is going

to happen why don't we buy assets

instead

rare earth mines all of the all of the

critical assets for the infrastructure

build to the other side

where do we get where do we get

political

gain belt and road and um and everything

else where do we take this money and put

it somewhere else so we have we it can't

be destroyed in value but more so we

have more control over the next phase of

where this going which when i said

creates tensions war machine everything

else because that's what that's

effectively what it does

um

and and so

so

essentially u.s doing that faster

printing more money faster drives this

divide faster and faster and faster now

i do not believe that the world is going

to switch to

replace the u.s currency with the

digital one

but i do believe certain people will

and that'll quit and that'll create

these

major polarized states

that

turn into

world war

exactly that's so funny i did did this

in the video probably two or three

months ago i talked about

world war three could be potentially i

don't want to alarm anybody out there

but could be potentially triggered

by kind of a quasi-currency war

those that force certain nation-states

around the world to use and embrace

certain currencies will drive that war

for example the activities of china and

africa right now building railroads and

mines etc they are clearly the content

of africa will clearly go will be forced

to go down the digital one route and

then the u.s

uh reserve currency but then there'll be

a third currency i hate to use the term

currency for bitcoin but that will be

bitcoin so it'll be us dollar one and

bitcoin and those three will fight out

amongst themselves do you envision

such a

weird future i i i do

um to to facilitate global trade you

have to have a measuring unit that isn't

all over the map yeah that is being

manipulated but today we have

measuring units as being manipulated

everywhere or here's

um

if you look back through the long arc of

history

and people say that a currency failure

happens every 80 years or 80 to 100

years today

and it used to happen over a much longer

time period like i mean 2000 years ago

it took a lot a lot longer and why might

that be

and and i have a thesis on this

and it is the same thesis that's in my

book technology has always been moving

it's always been a force for deflation

but it happened very slowly

very slowly throughout time and it's

speeding up

faster and faster so the great turning

that people talk about every 80 years

it's not necessarily every 80 years

it happens as a result of our personal

need

to believe

we can get something we can get more

than we can actually get so we'll vote

people in if somebody said listen i only

have this much money to be able to pay

for this this services we would never

vote that person in we'll vote for

somebody and that will lie to us hide

that lie and limit it to inflation

and build a system on inflation on top

of that that the lie must get bigger and

bigger tied greater expanding services

that do everything what we're talking

and then it gets into a long debt cycle

that has to reset

so that if you look at through

the historic lens i think that's

actually what's happening technology has

been moving faster and faster all the

time even going back to roman days right

and technology's been moving faster and

faster so you get these events you get

these clearing things and now you

if now you wind that back to 1971. the

u.s dollar probably would have failed in

1971.

had had they not

tied energy to oil

so it took us dollar to oil which was

energy

and and

and because of the war machine to be

able to saudi arabia and the in the in

the pact if you were outside of that oil

for us dollar system you were cut off

from trade for the world

look at what it looks like in venezuela

look what it looks like in in any

country who's tried to get off that

system look look what happened in iraq

when iraq talked about pricing oil in

europe

and so

so when you think about that system

today it extended us dollar dominance

for another call it 50 years

as

it moved around

and it tied

us dollars to energy

in price and oil well well now china is

a bigger player

and can muscle muscle in and price and

try to price oil and raw materials and

one or they're trying

as well as

the energy transition to bitcoin

bitcoin is pricing energy and it's

pricing the energy transition and it's a

more effective transition because it

actually doesn't require the war machine

to price it

so

so so

effectively what it says is all

currencies break down at some point from

the exact same thing that creates the uh

that creates this

and why

because the human loop in currencies we

want to believe that we can get

something we want to believe we don't

want to believe in inflation

but we it's easy to believe in inflation

and it allows

allows

governments to spend more than they can

which has to accelerate

fantastic let's play a game so i built

out this uh model actually in

preparation for a breed love interview

so it looks like looks at the money

printing

rate

money printing acceleration rate and

then it calculates a whole bunch of

stuff like purchasing power debasement

value of a million dollars value of a

home and all that type of stuff and

assumes bitcoin appreciates it 33 per

year

what do you think is the sustainable

quantitative easing rate we will see

going forward we've seen 25 per year 40

over 20 months etc etc but what do you

think the bare minimum is and do you

believe in the theory that it has to

accelerate as we get

bigger and bigger in terms of debt

absolutely absolutely so so so from that

and i think there's a paragraph in my

book that talks about this if one system

is moving down in an exponential rate

the technology is driving kind of what

should be happening then the system has

to

move up at an exponential rate so if you

look at money pinching through that lens

and even the stats that i pulled out in

my book there there was 185 trillion of

debt and preceding 20 years to

increase global gdp by 46 trillion

you know that that number has to to keep

on increasing global gdp has to ex it

has to be exponential in function and so

what are we seeing today remember my

book was written before all of this

happened and that was a 4x at that time

what is it now yeah so what is it now

and it's hard to even it's hard to even

fathom yeah and and so at some point

winter is coming because it's completely

unstable and in how

the only way the system could continue

this way

the only way is and remember because

artificial intelligence and eventually

effective effectively

one day artificial general intelligence

lower and lower costs on robotics the

merging of those two things and

everything else and the labor

taking away of that

if you don't allow the natural force of

technology to through a currency that

allows for deflation

to move broadly to society

you must keep concentrating it in few

hands

and if you just pull on that thread what

you have to think about is who is the

person

pick a person's face that you want as

supreme leader of the world

or or two or three of them fighting with

each other for all all control because

that's actually where if this system was

was able to to essentially distort all

pricing by continue to manipulate

forever

that's where it go that's where it goes

it concentrates more and more wealth in

very few hands and and it looks like for

everybody else like modern day slavery

and we're seeing that with the jeff

bezos and elon musk's of the world and

google people like you see the huge

concentration of wealth

tied directly to technology

then what happens from there is because

there's fuel and here's the risk that

they don't see

um

when there's very few of them that have

the money then it won't it it will

likely be

a political class or dictat that comes

in and take it and takes that and takes

and and takes the business away takes

everything look look what's happening to

china right now in the technology

companies yeah dd etc yeah yeah you have

to you have to take back that power and

concentrate it in government

you you you must and and and the will of

the people will give you that power to

be able to do it change constitution

change all laws change to give you more

power to take away their individual

rights and freedoms so

are are we seeing a preview of the

dystopian world right now playing out in

china

absolutely

digital one or central bank digital

currency

it um it is money disguised as

surveillance

or surveillance disguised as money

yeah and so it's it it is a full control

state

where you better toe the line and

remember that line that you toe that you

might opt for in the beginning

can change unilaterally you could get

shut out of it

unilaterally look at what's happened to

hong kong

and it's funny i i see that with the

cbdc it's like it's almost like a

nuclear arms race

that i lived part way through when i was

a young man

and i see the

sovereign states

rushing to deploy and i don't care if

it's israel or some place in africa or

china or you name it the bank of england

everybody wants their cbdc now the

question is two questions one

will that accelerate the rush

to

become your own sovereign bank yourself

through bitcoin or

will people just be sucked into it and

then

it'll be that dystopian future that you

see

a la china

my optimistic case and what uh and what

what everybody in bitcoin must think

about uh

as well

these

these moves

are more powerful than we give them

credit

and so so and it's because a whole bunch

of people are locked into fear

and they can't and and once you're

locked into fear and you believe it's

somebody else's fault

you'll reinforce that that that

narrative and you'll be in and you'll

move into hate to first kind of despair

hate and everything else and you will be

turned

kind of into a pawn of the state

and it happens fairly easily um

i wish it didn't but it um

so so that system is doing that right

now i think about th

this if everybody around the world that

was marching against covet which is a

natural response to what's kind of work

that has to happen and it's a derivative

of a lot of this forget co i'm not being

a conspiracy theorist with covet but the

system must have more control

if everybody that was rising against

covert or global warming or anything

else

um

uh rose up and bought bitcoin

instead they would have their individual

rights and freedoms back and we would be

moving to a different system instead

they're standing up and giving more

power to the system because a lot of

people in that system will say we need

to print more money

to be able to hire police states to

protect us from those people

so if every if everybody was sovereign

they wouldn't protest is that what

you're saying yeah so so so what they

would realize is they actually have more

power in the system change than they

actually realize

because because it defunds the

government the government doesn't have

as much power and and that that power

comes from the from printing of money

to be able to take the power from you

it comes from the

uh from the exact very same the same

thing

so

so but but are in but if you think about

human bias and human and and what we

think in systems how many people are

actually investigating what we're

talking about at the root cause versus

talking about all the symptoms

and getting wound up against the system

very few people are talking about it

from a system um and so

door three my my hope on door three

might and what i do what what

happy to do these things because it's so

important for our kids future and

everything else

is door three is

every single thing we live in today

including this phone

right including um

including the technology we're using

today was an idea in somebody's mind

first

everything including the system we live

in

and if we believe that a system must be

based on a fraud and inflation if the

greater majority believes that and

reinforces that system

that's the system we live in

but if people walk to the other side and

that was what bitcoin

provides is actually a different idea

it's a different system

and it's a system that i believe is

based on truth hope and everything else

and and as people start to imagine a new

idea and what a future world could look

like on on that idea

we change and so what's actually

happening uh right now and and maybe you

from my book and a whole bunch of other

people and other people coming in

this idea

if you just measure the number of people

growing in bitcoin and the network

effect on bitcoin this and the number of

people now building to it and the

technology and what people don't see

kind of that's coming all of the

innovation that's still to come

is people walking across the bridge a

new new idea emerging

and people grabbing onto that idea not

because there's a marketing department

behind bitcoin

because the idea is so important

it's so important to transfer from one

system to another system and the

existing system can't allow it can't

allow the transfer so hopefully

as one system flails and makes uh makes

ore more people will start walking

across walking across the bridge to

bitcoin and as they're walking across

the bridge they're actually paving the

bridge for society to walk

to to walk across the other side you

need a transmission mechanism from one

side to the other because the existing

system can't give it so i try to stay

out of the rhetoric about

about

it's a transmission mechanism and it's a

transmission mechanism like most

technology is

yeah

interesting before we leave cbdc's and

then i'm going to talk about paving the

bridge because i like that analogy

i had an interview last week with raul

paul

and one of the things that stunned me

from that interview was he saw a lot of

benefits from cbtc's for society by

personalizing monetary policy and he saw

that as a big plus

can you tell me how you believe cbdc's

are dangerous slash bad for society

so under the existing system under the

existing inflationary monetary system

cbdc's will be terrible for society

because it must it must distort money

further and further take individual

rights and freedoms from

control and it must and it'll say

what what they'll say is we need to do

it to protect your property rights from

that evil china coming after you

that's what that's what will likely

happen in a bunch of so

so again from the system there is no fix

from the system

without

more distortion

more manipulation more

power control to the few from the many

and eventually it's kind of destroying

what we know there is no capital when

you distort money at this level there is

no free market so we i grew up in

something that i believed was a free

market an entrepreneurial talent trying

to deliver more value to other people

and you're only successful if you

deliver more value

that is largely gone today it's still

i have a hard time because i'm an

entrepreneur and that's what i do

to say it's completely gone there is

ways to to to create value for other

people and do it very well but largely

we live assist in a system of corruption

it is greater and greater corruption

that makes that thing harder

um

so

i see that let me pause on that for a

second i saw a very surprising activity

from the president of the united states

not saying anything bad or getting

political here

but he spoke publicly about how great

general motors as a car company is now

this is no ding against general motors

but he completely ignored the elephant

in the room which is tesla

and i just thought that was

so strange

and obviously

that is

could be construed as corruption because

he must hate elon musk for some reason

or the fact that he

you know

hosts the term panders to the union

workers

and tesla's not union but would you

construe that as kind of corruption

within government

so i have a hard time today and this is

where the

uh this um

i'm not waffling on this conversation

but

on this question but i have a hard time

because the line is so blurred with who

actually knows and who doesn't

but

but

both right and left hand side of

politics

what what party would say we're going to

stop printing we're going to advise the

fed to stop printing

and and no party would because

the the what i said the entire

deflationary spiral will take place

everything would collapse i'm not even

encouraging them to do that from the

existing system

but but nobody would say that in other

words every single thing at the root is

is based on and we're all questioning is

it a free market union are all these

other things

and the root is rotten

and everybody so when you have

corruption and money and money is just

an

arbitrary concept for our time we don't

want more money we want what we think

more money will buy us

more time

so when you destroy money you destroy

our time

and and so what would society look like

under those conditions and what would

society look like if the corruption of

money had to grow at an exponential pace

you can see every everything that has to

happen out of that simple construct in a

lens so then you ask about okay what

would biden do on top of that what would

trump do on top of that it's just

nonsense it's just completely nonsense

because

because

if they know

what would they say

and if they don't if they don't know um

then

then again it's such a deep problem that

people are focused on on the symptoms

okay excellent before we jump into

bitcoin one final thing um i think i

heard you touch on it before and i'm

fascinated by it again

uh the president of the united states

said the infrastructure bill would be a

deflationary force which is completely

ridiculous because of how much it costs

but we leave that but the connection

between

spending

quantitative easing and climate change

and the fact that we're talking about

innovation in different systems how do

you mash all that together in your head

you said once i think that

quantitative easing causes climate

change doesn't cure it

yeah so inflation is climate change um

and and that's a hard concept to grasp

again

living into a system that requires us to

grow forever

so simply

on a finite planet

can you grow forever by manipulating

money

and what would it look like

so you would cause constraints

everywhere

right you'd cause exactly what we're

saying and you would cause people to

need more jobs more and more and more

and more and buy more and more things

forever

all because you're manipulating money

to be able to keep up with the right

with the prices that are being

manipulated higher so more and more

people would be forced into this loop

to keep price is rising forever

because otherwise the credit based

system collapses that's the system we're

in

i'm i am on a whole bunch of technology

boards and i can tell you for sure

these technology companies

in food agriculture everything else a

bunch of different technology

companies that give us an abundance in

food and agriculture

that drastically reduce prices give you

more for less now some of those aren't

visible to everybody in the world yet

they're not but they're coming

and they get better and better and

better through technology automation ai

but they've already cracked the code one

of them has already cracked the code

it's much cheaper to localize let us

produce it locally without a supply

chain than it is to import lettuce from

california or

um something like that already cracked

it

now ai automation everything

that comes makes that cheaper and

cheaper and cheaper more quality less

less cost on it on an exponential scale

that's already happening

that is deflationary

so it gives you more for less and it

solves a whole bunch of your needs

by doing so

um other companies very similar that and

i can't and i look around all of this

stuff and i think

every one of them if they're successful

creates abundance

creates more for less every single one

of them if they're not successful they

die

if they're successful by by measurement

of you

me

do i get more value here did the price

come down when i get more quality

i'll buy it and the business explodes

because of that same reason you use

google same reason we use this zoom

right now do i get more value

and it's all around and it's coming

really fast

what would the existing system do to

offset that when prices have to rise

because because those prices the natural

market wants to bring them down give you

more for less and the system that we

live in because we want our price we we

want lower for grocery prices but we

want our house price to always rise

and it's the incongruence of thought

between those two different systems

that that existing system must

essentially steal that productivity

by printing money and transferring that

money to uh to government or to or or to

big business or to any actually or to

technology companies that use it to

scale faster and faster and faster but

they must do it keep keep doing it

faster and faster and as prices rise up

more companies need to be technology

companies and remove labor faster

so

so when you when you think about it from

a system problem

how do you solve climate change

through a system that requires growth

forever and will manipulate price prices

to get get there you can't it's

impossible yeah

it's impossible but people don't see it

for their system lens they

see it as

as uh

as one part of the system i remember you

did a presentation i think it was may

have been in europe or somewhere but

there was a slide and it was a goldfish

in a bowl

that's the system and i love that

because i could relate to that and you

can imagine one system with one goldfish

in a bowl and maybe another goldfish and

another bowl two separate systems that

have no idea what's going on in each

other's system so i think that's where

you're coming from okay let's switch

gears let's talk um you have this unique

ability to connect dots from money

to bitcoin

that's what everyone's here i'm all

about bitcoin so how many dots are there

for us to get to hyper bitcoinization

um we talked about some of them already

that bridge

and and i personally think it's it's in

in bitcoin it's more of an an emergent

phenomenon

in other words

our minds believing in something and

then creating that

to happen and and as that's happening

more and more minds starting to wake up

out of the fog

move out of the goldfish

ball and realize

i didn't understand this and so how many

dots there are to connect to to uh to

bitcoin you could come in from the

technology road you could come in from

game theory you could come in from

from

it's the only thing to solve climate

change is the only way to solve climate

change you could saw it come in from

every different path but what's

happening and i use you as an example

the the

the

really really smart people

that they're taking this message and

they're moving it out and more and more

people connecting and and you you know

the kind of saying in bitcoin don't

trust verify yeah

and and i have not yet seen anything in

bitcoin

that that that

that is a counter to

uh that would give me reason for pause

in in in bitcoin so there's no fud

there's no anything else that doesn't

actually

make my conviction stronger in bitcoin

and i'm not saying that to to say

maybe there's not something else that i

haven't seen today or they're not open

to possibilities

of something else solving this

bridge to the other side but there's

nothing i've seen um

today that solves this and so most of

the conversations so when you when

you're verifying that at this level

and you have really curious driven

people to be able to

hold that truth out

it gets stronger and stronger and

stronger and nothing that attacks it

can it makes it stronger so china

removing mining capacity

and three months later you have more

hash rate on bitcoin a network is

evidence for what happens

for what happens with with this network

and it's indestructible so i'll throw

you a curveball actually on that one so

if you look at the top one percent of

earth they own 90 of wealth

so why what incentive is there for them

to put their money into bitcoin and line

the pockets of the early bitcoin

adopters

it seems like an undeserved wealth

transfer so i love that question

um because you have to solve it from a

different uh a different standpoint

um and the question is not what it

what do we care about those people

because those people are enriching from

a system that it that it is it has

negative externalities to the rest of

the world

so it's not those people

what it is is

what what you think about and think

about this from a monopoly how does a

monopoly protect their monopoly

and what happens when technology changes

the rules so let's just say the money

monopoly money today costs a whole bunch

of dollars to transfer it's high network

fees everything else built on debt and

corresponding banks and everything else

and this huge embedded cost into that

system

and it requires this inflationary system

to be able to continue to go and

everybody in that system the closer you

are to the money printer the more wealth

you gain the further away the more the

the the more that you lose just

um and now you have a technology

that's lowered the access costs and

opened to everybody

what was it

have there been other technologies that

have lowered access costs yes for the

world and what do they look like today

so let's look at what google did versus

television networks

you used to if you had a monopoly in a

business you used to be able to crowd

out new businesses because they couldn't

afford to advertise on television and

everybody was on t everybody was

watching the same channels

at night so you had an effective

monopoly by control of the airwaves by

pricing other people out very hard as a

new business to get into that when

google came into town i can tell you

because i am i built to google really

early

with free traffic

and the and in the lowered cost period

and did the giants of advertisers

advertise on google nope

they didn't build to it and so companies

like mine exploded in growth

because

new

cost of communication cost of

advertising he fell to the floor

raced in to be able to create a new

technology and the world looked

different as a result

the laggers to that system

were the were the big monopoly powers

and a lot of those laggards aren't even

in business today yep

right so you created that and what

happened

technology lowered the access cost

technology opened the doors it

created a level fee

field and it changed the rules

for the monopoly and the monopoly

couldn't deal with the change because

they're they're

they were in

they were protected

by the rules of the old system

now let's the only difference right now

is that's happening to money which is a

meta level across everything else so

creative destruction is coming for money

so putting it another way if you snooze

you lose it's like the game theory of

bitcoin you got to get in early

and and and you can get in any time but

but but the the corresponding benefit

will be less like uh

later on and and so

same thing on who were the first people

on amazon shelves

they weren't people that had access to

walmart shelves they were and and

because there's way more people that are

underprivileged from an existing

monopoly and especially today as as a

monopoly of power and money gets

concentrated more and more there's way

more people that are underprivileged

from that

and that access and that access moves

and what that access does from the

bottom up

is drives innovation and more and more

innovation across the new network

creates the network effect that brings

more and more people on essentially the

road across to the other side of the

side

so now

zooming back

zooming back out

it's no surprise that a country like el

salvador

would go first

because

that their negative externality of what

their economy looks like

is our positive externality

the western union is taking 40 percent

etc so

not just that but we but we have a

finance system and greg foss talks about

this you can get a credit card rate as a

business for two percent

you can't do that in in el salvador that

credit card rate is a business might be

eight or ten percent and so the walls

that that gate to control the monopoly

are so much higher now you take bitcoin

and it's

point zero zero zero two percent or

something like that is essentially a

fraction of a cost why wouldn't every

business and um embed it

and exactly you're reduced and so as

those businesses embed it and they build

it they build that network effect and it

gets stronger and stronger and other

countries look over and say wow what's

going on in that economy

and they started embedding it and it's

so that but that's just the nature of

technology and it's very hard to see

from the monopoly or the privilege we in

the western world

we

billionaires or or multi-millionaires

are the privileged

few

so it's very hard for those for those

people to to see what we're talking

about but that's what technology does

all the time

so do you see a potential scenario where

bitcoin could go to zero and what would

the probability be at this point in time

i know the lindy effect has the network

effect etc has made it better and

stronger more resilient but is there

anything

that you believe could take it to zero

i don't think so

yeah i i i

i i think

i'm getting more convinced that it's

inevitable that it keeps on taking kind

of its moves across and and consumes

every asset class over time and it

becomes

but it's uh but no i don't think

anything takes it to zero so i remember

2020 started with a bang in terms of

like treasury adoption

and then 2021 has kind of gone out with

a whimper

any idea as to why like you got your

squares and your teslas and your micro

strategies all adopting it as a treasury

asset and

30 40 other companies

but nobody else since then

um i think what you'd find i think what

you're gonna find it in behind the

scenes is there are a lot of people a

lot of boards i'm on a bunch of boards i

can tell you this is a very regular

conversation um and and so

i can imagine this

this is happening

um

at a rate we might not see it because

we're measuring in too slow in into a

high time frame we want it to happen

right now

but i bet you going into 2021 nobody

would have expected el salvador to adopt

it as a as a currency right it seems

like time yeah it seems like time frames

are a theme we need to as humans we need

to wrap our heads around

lindy and time frames much better to be

able to understand this exponent

exponentiality of this world we live in

today

yeah if you look at the on-chain metrics

and you look at the rate of growth of

nothing's changed nothing has changed

it's it's accelerating it's uh um and if

you and and and so is the technology

that's coming into it i've been asked a

number of times one specifically

about 100 million dollar fund to only

invest in it would i would join as an

advisor to only invest in bitcoin

related companies and lightning related

companies and there's entire network

there's an entire ecosystem that's

that's building

there so you can imagine what's happened

happening and and that's one of many

and capital is rushing in because they

see what's happening i've been watching

the capital rushing and it's

mind-blowing the billions and billions

that triggers another question in my

mind do you think layer twos on bitcoin

have a shot of competing with the likes

of ethereum solana avalanche etc

100

one like

that's in

in fact

i can't see

it i got to be careful here i'm totally

in a free market of people investing in

whatever they they want to um in

ethereum and other other altcoins i

can't see the long-term rationale for

ethereum at all i can't see the

long-term rationale for many of these if

if people wanted to day trade and see

tons of risk in that too

um but

but i think bitcoin and the

corresponding ecosystem

is going to take it all

one of the things that i deal with and i

come from kind of

hedging

futures derivatives background

do you believe that there is a potential

for a government or a series of entities

like the jp morgans of the world to try

and suppress

bitcoin price

over time over long periods of time is

it legitimate

like through a futures market yeah

um

so so yes

um the simply yes but but what would

happen is by doing so

people would see that they're doing that

and i think it would cause

a cra crazy

for a time and then it would break

because of because of what would happen

do you ever think there could come a

time where

you know putting futures leverage

manipulation whale manipulation aside

that

bitcoin pricing and price discovery

could ever go back to basic supply and

demand

that's what i think it will happen

that's what i hope that's what i hope

will happen so so there's a question a

lot of people ask about okay

so what if we transferred the wealth

from these people to these people

what would the society look like so if

you built a credit based system on top

of bitcoin that looked a lot like the

credit based system today

yes it would still if you'd over

leveraged it would be wiped out to zero

and there'd be no but but you can

imagine it it is simple explanation

think about just in mining

what if what if one company could

concentrate because of the massive

leverage and they could essentially buy

all the asics and and they could

concentrate the network right as a

result of that that massive leverage

so

i

and today we're going to have a whole

bunch of experiments and people trying

leverage and everything else and

comparing one system that requires

massive leverage and thinking the system

will look the same on the other side

it won't

it's going to if eventually people are

going to pay in bitcoin

and you want that to happen because it's

actually the only way to transfer

what i'm talking about with the

technology to be able to create

broad-based abundance it's only the only

way to allow the free market to work

yeah one of the things that keeps me

awake at night is people that are

dependent on the fiat system i know a

lot of people in their late 50s 60s they

have maybe 300 000 in the bank and

that's that's their future

what happens or are you concerned about

people that don't have any bitcoin what

happens to those

people very i'm very concerned

in my

one of my

ceo groups

um somebody said you know three years

ago

he came to us and he implored us to buy

it it jeff never implored first really

uh i'm begging people

you must get off zero get off zero yeah

get off zero

learn learn learn about it now don't do

it because i said so but you you should

question your own bias and you should

get off zero um and and and and look

into this more getting off zero will at

least

put a foot in the door and then you can

make some decisions and everything else

on how much you want to allocate and

everything else but it's a lifeboat in

the coming storm yeah and it's a much

needed lifeboat in the coming storm it's

really important for people's family

everything else more important if they

re if people really understand it

they'll they'll understand how they're

walking across the bridge to actually

take humanity to the other side

yeah and speaking of

that and that lifeboat

um i've been watching the case-shiller

index now for nearly 30 years i don't

know if there's equivalent in canada

that is north of 24 this year so far

actually north of 24 i think in the last

10 months it's ridiculous the actual

real estate inflation but what would you

advise somebody that had neither bitcoin

or a house

how should they allocate should they

have their castle first or bitcoin first

and wait for the castle later or vice

versa

i think today it's bitcoin first

i i think is the amount of leverage

when i think about um

specifically housing

um now that's worked for a long time and

it's worked because of the inflationary

policy like nobody asks

people that believe housing goes up

forever right think of what could happen

to your mindset believing housing goes

up forever

in an environment

that over the last 20 years it took 185

trillion dollars

of the stimulus to make housing prices

go up forever

and and what might that look like if the

stimulus is changed or what or or what

might that look like if the stimulus

keeps coming

but what would society look like

now in that environment what ends up

happening is

is people

take a small down payment

of their cash and they take a small down

payment because they're so worried that

their cash is losing value houses prices

are rising faster than the houses which

is a design of the system

and so they're scared so and they need a

house

so they so they they take a small and

they lever everything to that house

um and now they're trapped

now they're

bills that they can't and now they're

trapped in a system

that if there is any waiver

they are they are trapped their job has

to be

supported support the two jobs probably

to be able to

pay for that and everything else

and so

because this is a different system and

it's early in that new system it's early

in the network effect just ask yourself

where was the internet in 1997

that's where we are in bitcoin

most of the most of this is coming so i

would start i would start in bitcoin

because i think bitcoin will

outperform every single asset class

effectively if you measure your world in

bitcoin prices will fall forever

so if when you take your bridge analogy

and we're paving the bridge for the

world

we are two and a half percent across

that bridge right now yeah yeah and it

could get and at some point it's going

to accelerate

all right

but but but actually that it's that's

probably the most important if you you

kind of use a business analogy

this same thing happened with amazon in

1999 remember the kind of the dot-com

bubbles and everything else but amazon

was what was creating this bridge to the

a different model that was way more

efficient and everybody locked out of

the system joined amazon system and it

got better and better and better and

they added more products but now imagine

point in time 19.99 instead of

imagine amazon only sells books or books

and toys and a couple other things

and every retail store collapses and you

can't buy groceries

that's the problem with what people are

making a mistake on in bitcoin today

they're they're thinking well how could

this be used as a currency what would

happen because they're they're thinking

of a total collapse of one system

and a system that is not yet ready

for the transition

yeah but what what's what is happening

is that system is getting more and more

bulletproof more and more people are

using it it's

gaining adoption and more businesses are

integrating it and the ux is getting

easier and wallet adoption and now you

can have wallets on your phone with

multi-sig and so so it the entire

ecosystem every new person in that

ecosystem technology building that

ecosystem has is making it easier to use

which is the transition from one system

to another and so going early on that

transition is important

but uh but that's the uh

that's what's happening beautiful

i know we've run really long we're at

the final

part of the interview i call this the

quick fire round and i hope you got time

for six very fast questions

they're like yes or no so would you deem

bitcoin a zero coupon bond

um no

no interesting okay

uh i always felt that crypto regulation

is bullish for the market space

your thoughts

but it is bullish for the marketplace

okay excellent gary gensler said there

is bitcoin and there is everything else

do you agree i think i know the answer

to this one i agree

if there is one thing that keeps you up

at night regarding crypto what is it

um human nature human nature to uh

and specifically human nature to be able

to divide people um from it from from a

system so how how much people discount

even in bitcoin

a a system that cr corrupts people as a

result and what people will do in that

system scares me

beautiful one of your favorite sayings

to me is you said once abundance of

money means scarcity everywhere

and scarcity of money drives abundance

everywhere

i didn't get the last piece and i know

some people don't but i'd like to hear

in your words i have a theory but how

would you

explain the last piece of that

so

so where are you where technology is

going um and so i i i try to simply

simplify this and the oxygen you breathe

is free

why is it free because it's abundant

yeah and and essentially no no

entrepreneur can create value there

because it's abundant

and so technology what it does is it

actually

decreases the the cost of production to

its marginal cost

and that's a natural force and the

marginal cost of production is moving

closer to zero all the time with

artificial intelligence and energy and

everything else

that's that's coming so that is the

natural path which creates abundance

everywhere if you don't have scarcity

and money

that abundance can't flow to society it

it gets taken

by uh by the abundance and money

creating scarcity and everything else so

they might that the money allows that to

the scarcity and money bitcoin in this

case allows that to happen for society

excellent

okay

two last questions and a final fun

question

says ton of money is being invested in

crypto you and i both live through the

1999.com bubble and ensuing crash etc

do you see earmarks telltale signs of

any similarity here

in in crypto generally yeah

yeah yeah absolutely so it's but but

yeah i see your ear marks tails signs of

that everywhere can it go on a lot

longer if there's more printing

absolutely what's what's actually

happening is you're creating a whole

bunch of people who know like think

about all the young people are

getting rich in this too

and but what they're trying to do is

they're trying to escape a system that

they know is unjust and they'll take

huge bets and risk and everything else

and if they're on the right side of that

that

it looks like a casino

um that

they'll they'll win and they'll escape

that system but that's actually what's

happening to society and you can expect

that to con continue

until it doesn't yeah like one of the

crazy examples is decentraland it's

valued at five and a quarter million

dollars per user facebook is valued at

148 dollars per user a little mismatch

there perhaps

perhaps yeah so final serious question

this is a hard one so what is the one

thing about bitcoin that you believe

in that few others do

it's actually what we talked about that

scarcity in money drives prices uh uh

down

eventually to zero

um in most in in most centers in most

industries what uh and they

because they're measuring a system from

a system so they can't uh they can't see

that but that scarcity drives deflation

which provides abundance and it means

what it means is we don't have to work

as much

to be our time is saved but there's

that's a hard thing to grasp because

people are so captured we need more more

jobs

yep excellent

that was amazing and that kind of

relates to our fishbowl example too

sister

timelapse so fun question

so if jeff were to abdicate his throne

of bitcoin king of canada

who

who would you nominate to rule

in your stead

oh there's so many good uh there's uh

craig foss i'd have to say he's

he's fantastic ben um

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is is

great and and pretty deep on this

um

i

i'll forget i'm forgetting names right

now but uh but uh but those would too

would be uh john valas those three would

be among the top

well we'd like you to stay in your

throne if you can and keep up the

brilliant work for society as a whole

jeff has been an absolute honor any

final question for me at all

no this has been an honor for me too

thanks thanks so much has been a little

bit basic people really need to hear

from you and you know get off zero

everybody listen to the man that knows

wonderful don't forget as well to follow

jeff on twitter and if you don't have a

copy of his book please get one it's

essential reading it's the book of the

century as far as i'm concerned

thank you so much mr booth

thanks thanks so much

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