The Future of Accounting Qualifications: Brian Hock

Summary

In the 'Accounting Influencers Podcast,' host Rob Brown interviews Brian Hawk, an expert in accounting qualifications and fintech. Hawk discusses the evolution of accounting qualifications, emphasizing the impact of technology and changing standards. He shares his experience in Russia and the importance of distinguishing between governments and people in political discussions. The conversation also touches on the relevance of certifications, the challenges of attracting new talent to the accounting profession, and the need for continuous professional development.

Takeaways

• 📈 Brian Hawk, a leading authority in accounting and fintech qualifications, emphasizes the importance of staying updated with technological changes in the field.
• 🎓 Hawk's career transitioned from auditing to training within the big four, highlighting the value of adaptability in professional development.
• 🌐 His company provides global training for U.S. based accounting certifications, underlining the demand for qualified accountants worldwide.
• 🔍 The discussion points out the evolution of accounting qualifications, particularly how technology and data usage have become integral to the role of an accountant.
• 📚 Hawk's experience in Russia showcases the impact of geopolitical events on business and accounting practices, and the importance of distinguishing between governments and people.
• 🤔 The conversation raises the question of whether certain aspects of accounting qualifications are outdated or not relevant to modern business needs.
• 🏆 The value of a certification is tied to its recognition by the business community and government requirements, suggesting that qualifications must keep pace with industry demands.
• 💼 There's a noted shift in the perception of the accounting profession, with a focus on the importance of work-life balance and the appeal of alternative careers.
• 🔑 Certifications serve as a 'passport' for professionals looking to move locations, providing a recognized standard of knowledge and skills.
• 🛠️ The script suggests a need for more comprehensive and rigorous examination methods that test the synthesis of knowledge rather than just memorization.
• 🌟 A call to view the accounting field as a 'profession' with a collective responsibility to maintain its standards and reputation, rather than just an 'industry'.

Q & A

What is the Accounting Influencers Podcast about?

The Accounting Influencers Podcast features discussions with special guests from the world of accounting and fintech, focusing on current happenings and practical insights into what is working in the industry.

Who is Brian Hawk and what is his area of expertise?

Brian Hawk is one of the world's foremost authorities on qualifications in accounting and fintech. He has over 25 years of experience in training and certifications, having started his own company in 2000 to provide training for accounting certifications globally.

How has Brian Hawk's career evolved from being an auditor to a training expert?

Brian Hawk started his career as an auditor with Price Waterhouse but soon realized it wasn't for him. He transitioned into the training department within the big four and has since been involved in training and certifications, eventually starting his own company.

What changes have occurred in accounting qualifications over the years according to Brian Hawk?

Accounting qualifications have changed significantly due to evolving accounting and tax standards, as well as the impact of technology. The use of data in auditing and management decisions has become a crucial part of the qualifications.

How has technology influenced the role of an accountant and the need for new skills?

Technology has transformed the role of an accountant by introducing new tools for data analysis and management. Accountants now need to be aware of and skilled in using this data, as well as understanding how to protect it from security breaches.

What was Brian Hawk's experience living and working in Russia, and how did it influence his career?

Brian Hawk lived and worked in Russia for 18 years, starting from 1994. His time there involved working with a car manufacturer and teaching accounting. This experience exposed him to different cultures and business practices, which contributed to his expertise in international accounting.

How does Brian Hawk view the current situation in Russia and its impact on the accounting profession?

Brian Hawk believes the situation in Russia is a tragedy with far-reaching effects, including on the accounting profession. He emphasizes the importance of distinguishing between the Russian government and its people and the need for the conflict to end.

What are Brian Hawk's thoughts on the relevance of accounting qualifications in today's rapidly changing business environment?

Brian Hawk acknowledges that while some aspects of accounting qualifications may not be directly applicable, they provide a foundational understanding that enables professionals to ask the right questions and understand the broader implications of financial data.

How does Brian Hawk perceive the competition between different accounting certifications?

He sees competition between certifications as being based on business perception and government requirements. Certifications gain value when they are recognized and sought after by the business community and when they are legally required for certain roles.

What is Brian Hawk's approach to helping students prepare for certification exams?

Brian Hawk focuses on motivation and understanding the 'why' behind pursuing a certification. He emphasizes the importance of knowing one's goals and being able to apply the knowledge gained during the certification process to real-world situations.

What does Brian Hawk predict for the future of accounting qualifications and the profession?

He foresees a greater emphasis on international connections and the development of the profession beyond just the technical skills. He hopes to see a growth in professional organizations and a focus on what it means to be a professional in the accounting field.

Outlines

00:00

🎙️ Podcast Introduction and Brian Hawk's Background

The script begins with the hosts introducing the Accounting Influencers Podcast, where they discuss current trends in accounting and fintech with industry experts. The guest for this episode is Brian Hawk, a renowned authority in accounting qualifications and fintech. Brian shares his journey from being an auditor to his 25-year career in training, including his experience with certifications and his own company that provides global accounting training. The conversation also touches on Brian's unique background as a part-qualified accountant and former math teacher.

05:01

🌐 Evolution of Accounting Qualifications and Technology's Impact

This paragraph delves into the evolution of accounting qualifications, highlighting how changes in accounting and tax standards have influenced certification content. Brian emphasizes the significant impact of technology on the field, discussing the use of data in auditing and management decisions. He also addresses the importance of data protection, citing news stories about data breaches, and notes the necessity for accountants to understand and adapt to technological advancements.

10:02

🇷🇺 Brian Hawk's Experience in Russia and Global Business Dynamics

Brian recounts his unique experience living and working in Russia, starting from a young age in 1987 during the Soviet era. He discusses his academic background in Russian history and diplomacy, which led to multiple visits to the country and eventually a career there. The conversation shifts to the current geopolitical situation, with Brian expressing his views on the importance of distinguishing between governments and their people, especially in the context of the Ukraine conflict and its global economic repercussions.

15:02

📚 The Role of Qualifications in Professional Development

The discussion turns to the role of qualifications in professional development, with Brian sharing his insights on the importance of certifications for career growth. He talks about the value of broad-based certifications for entry-level professionals and the significance of specialized certifications later in one's career. The paragraph also touches on the adaptability of certified professionals and the importance of continuous learning.

20:03

🏛️ The State of Politics and Its Reflection on Business Practices

Brian and the hosts engage in a dialogue about the current state of politics, both in the United States and the United Kingdom, and how it parallels certain business practices. They discuss the loss of middle ground in politics and the impact of extreme views on society. The conversation also explores the importance of maintaining company values and making decisions that prioritize people over profits.

25:05

📉 The Relevance of Accounting Qualifications in a Changing World

The focus shifts to the relevance of accounting qualifications in the face of rapid changes in the industry. Brian addresses the concern that some aspects of qualifications may not be fit for purpose and discusses the importance of certifications staying current with industry trends, particularly in data analytics. The paragraph also considers the balance between the breadth of knowledge provided by certifications and the specialization required in certain roles.

30:08

🌟 The Value and Transferability of Professional Certifications

Brian discusses the value of professional certifications, such as the CPA, in the global job market. He explains how certifications can act as a passport, demonstrating a standardized body of knowledge that is recognized internationally. The paragraph also touches on the perception of value in certifications and how they can serve as a ticket to enter the job market.

35:09

🛠️ The Future of Accounting Qualifications and Professional Development

In this paragraph, Brian shares his vision for the future of accounting qualifications, advocating for a more rigorous and comprehensive approach to examinations. He emphasizes the importance of understanding concepts beyond memorization and the need for certifications to demand a synthesis of information. The conversation also hints at the potential introduction of new certifications and the expansion of continuing professional education (CPE).

40:09

🔮 Brian Hawk's Predictions for the Accounting Profession

Brian concludes the interview with his predictions for the accounting profession in the coming years. He foresees an increased emphasis on international connections and the development of a more profound understanding of what it means to be a professional. Brian also hopes for a stronger connection between professional organizations and the continued growth of the profession beyond just technical skills.

Keywords

💡Accounting Influencers Podcast

This is the name of the podcast where the conversation takes place, focusing on the world of accounting and fintech. It is a platform that brings together special guests to discuss current events and practical insights within the industry. The podcast serves as a central theme for the entire transcript, as it is the medium through which the host and guest, Brian Hawk, engage in their discussion.

💡Brian Hawk

Brian Hawk is a guest on the Accounting Influencers Podcast and is introduced as one of the world's foremost authorities on qualifications in accounting and fintech. His experience and expertise are central to the podcast's discussion, providing insights into the evolution of accounting qualifications and the impact of technology on the profession.

💡Certifications

Certifications in the context of this video refer to the professional qualifications and credentials that accountants obtain, such as CPA (Certified Public Accountant), CMA (Certified Management Accountant), and CIA (Certified Internal Auditor). These certifications are crucial for establishing expertise and competence in various areas of accounting and are a recurring topic throughout the discussion.

💡Technology

Technology is highlighted as a significant factor changing the role of accountants and the qualifications needed in the industry. The script discusses how the use of data, auditing software, and the need to understand and protect information are becoming increasingly important in the field of accounting.

💡Training

Training is a key concept in the transcript as Brian Hawk discusses his background in training within the big four accounting firms and his own company. It emphasizes the importance of continuous learning and development for accountants to stay current with industry standards and technological advancements.

💡Big Four

The term 'Big Four' refers to the four largest professional services networks globally, which include PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC), Deloitte, Ernst & Young (EY), and KPMG. In the script, Brian Hawk mentions his experience with Price Waterhouse, one of the Big Four, indicating the significance of these firms in shaping professional standards and providing training for accountants.

💡Data Analytics

Data analytics is a concept that emerges in the discussion as increasingly integral to the accounting profession. It involves the use of large datasets to examine, interpret, and draw insights for decision-making. The script notes the necessity for accountants to have a background in data analytics to remain relevant in the evolving industry.

💡Russian History

Brian Hawk's personal background includes a focus on Russian history, which adds a unique perspective to the conversation. His experience living and working in Russia provides insight into the cultural and political aspects that can influence business practices and accounting standards on an international scale.

💡Interconnectedness

The concept of interconnectedness is used in the script to describe how global events, such as the war in Ukraine or supply chain disruptions, can have widespread economic impacts. This term is relevant to the accounting profession as it underscores the need for accountants to be aware of global trends and their potential effects on business and finance.

💡CPE (Continuing Professional Education)

CPE refers to the ongoing education and training that professionals, including accountants, must undertake to maintain their certifications and stay current with industry developments. In the transcript, the importance of CPE is emphasized to ensure that accountants' knowledge and skills remain relevant and up-to-date.

💡Case Study

A case study is a teaching method that involves the analysis of a real-life business situation or problem. In the context of the video, Brian Hawk suggests incorporating more case study-based approaches into accounting examinations to better assess and develop the comprehensive skills of accountants, moving beyond mere memorization.

Highlights

Introduction of Brian Hawk as a world authority on qualifications in accounting and fintech.

Brian's transition from auditor to training within the big four, focusing on certifications for over 25 years.

Establishment of Brian's own company in 2000, providing global accounting certification training.

Discussion on the evolution of accounting qualifications driven by changes in standards and technology.

Emphasis on technology's impact on the role of accountants and the necessity for certification to adapt.

Brian's unique experience living and working in Russia, offering insights into the cultural and political landscape.

Reflection on the current geopolitical situation and its influence on business and the accounting profession.

Analysis of the disconnect between governments and citizens in various contexts, including the US and Russia.

Debate on the relevance and applicability of certain aspects of accounting qualifications in the real world.

The importance of certifications as a stepping stone for career advancement and professional development.

Differentiation between various accounting certifications and the value they hold in the business community.

Brian's perspective on the role of technology in simplifying tax processes and its implications for accountants.

Concerns about the image and perception of the accounting profession and the challenges it faces in attracting new talent.

Brian's insights into the future of accounting qualifications and the importance of adapting to a globalized business environment.

The significance of continuous professional development (CPD) in maintaining the relevance of qualifications.

Brian's vision for the accounting profession, emphasizing the need for a stronger professional community and ethical standards.

Final thoughts on the importance of the accounting profession's collective reputation and the impact of individual actions.

Transcripts

it's the accounting influencers podcast

with me and Rob Brown we bring you

special guests from the world of

accounting and fintech to tell you what

is happening and most importantly what

is working I'm thrilled to have with Mr

one of the world's foremost authorities

on the world of qualifications in

accounting and fintech it is Brian Hawk

good day to you sir good day how are you

today we're splendi Brian wonderful to

have you on with us for the benefit of

people that have not come across you and

the world that you have built for

yourself tell us a bit about you and

your life

well I started uh out of college I

started as an auditor and decided fairly

quickly that while I understand auditing

is a wonderful profession and that

there's a lot of people that enjoy it it

wasn't exactly for me it wasn't

something that I was looking forward to

and so I stayed within the big four I

was with price Waterhouse at the time

and I got into their training department

and so for the past 25 plus years I've

been involved in training in one way or

another

um almost all of it with certifications

for the past

23 years I started my own company in the

year 2000. we've been doing a lot of U.S

based accounting certifications but

providing training for candidates all

over the world India middle east Europe

North America all over

now I'm a part qualified accountant and

a former high school math teacher so

back in the day this would have been

around 2000 I was studying my

qualifications and and like some people

decided accountancy wasn't for me but

loved some aspects of it talk to us

about how the accounting qualification

has changed over the years if indeed it

has we know accounting's been ever

thirst and double entry bookkeeping but

the qualifications themselves have they

changed much

they've changed a lot of it driven by I

think really two things one is a change

in standards as Accounting Standards

change and as tax standards change

obviously what it is that's covered in

the certifications change and so that's

I think pretty straightforward but I

think the other area that the

certifications have changed a lot

recently has to do with technology all

of the uses of Technology the use of

data in auditing the use of data in

management decisions and just

individuals having to be aware of all of

the data that's out there how to use it

how to manage it obviously how to

protect it far too often we see

something in the news about a company

that didn't protect all of the data as

well as they were supposed to have and

so there's issues connected to that but

it's really I think a big change is

technology and how it is that technology

is changing the role of the accountant

when I took the CPA exam almost 30 years

ago it was paper and pencil and we

studied on in a book and there wasn't

online videos and all of that even study

tools but just in the profession it was

all work papers and papers were paper

and tick marks were tick marks that you

made and so as technology has come into

and obviously with everything that's in

the news today is going to continue to

impact auditing accounting the finance

Fields that's going to be a part of

where certifications have to keep up so

that people who are getting the

certifications have that kind of data T

background and skills to operate sure

well we'll go on more into that of

course but you use the phrase in the

news today

and I can't help but want to ask you

about Russia because Russia is big in

the news today you are in the unique

position of having lived in Russia tell

us a little bit about how that came

about and what your life was like over

there Brian and then we'll comment and

perhaps a little bit on what is

happening right now as it relates to the

accounting world yeah my uh career in

Russia actually started when I was 16

years old I went to then the Soviet

Union it was 1987 and so everyone can do

the math and figure out how old I am but

that's amazing because most Americans I

know don't even have a passport and

haven't been out of their own state so

that is an American boy doing it in

Russia at 16. so I went in 1987 and it

was a program that was called citizen

diplomacy where the idea was for

American citizens to actually connect

with Soviet citizens and I say that I

enjoyed it but I don't think it was

enjoyed in the same sense as going to

Disney World is enjoyed or something

like that and so I went back again uh

twice in college with youth groups and

when I was in college I before I became

an accounting major I was a Russian

history major a diplomacy and Foreign

Affairs major and then after a couple of

years I decided I wanted a job going

forward in my life and so I followed my

father's my older brother's footsteps

and became an accounting major but when

I interviewed I said I want to go to

Russia and so in when I graduated I had

offers from three different offices in

Russia and I went in 1994 to

a city that's about 600 miles a thousand

kilometers east of Moscow which is where

the Russian car manufacturers of one of

the the main passenger car manufacturers

I spent time there that's where I

decided auditing was not my life's

calling and it wasn't something I wanted

to do for the next 30 Years and I got

into training within the big four we did

a lot of Acca training back then and and

some SEMA training and I stayed in

training through that

um in the year 2000 I left Arthur

Anderson and started my own company to

do accountancy training CPA and CMA CIA

training and then it just kind of it

grew I stayed there I enjoyed it and

then 10 years ago a little more than 10

years ago

kind of I woke up and said well I think

I'm done here I'd spend 18 years in

Russia as at the start of my career and

we moved you know 11 years ago back to

the U.S but a lot of a lot of that time

was in training and the students I had

were brilliant we had people at that

time

we had to fly to the U.S to take the CPA

exam and so I joked I had a few students

I could have given them a book and sat

him on the airplane and told them you

have 10 hours and that would have been

enough for them to be ready to pass the

exam yeah but it was a great student

base that we worked with we had great

results and it was a lot of fun to to be

part of a lot of those young

professionals careers as they were just

starting in the career and I've lived

myself in Hong Kong for a few years and

it's not until you get immersed in a

culture as a someone living there not as

a tourist that you really appreciate the

the inner workings of a country that the

politics the people the society and so

having been there for so long like are

you okay commenting on what you feel is

happening right now because obviously

the war in Ukraine it's affected

business and life all over the world

hasn't it

I think it's a

it's a tragedy on so many levels and I

think that it's unfortunate that

a lot of people a lot of media are not

separating the Russian government from

the Russian people and I think this is

the case in every government I know not

every person is fully supportive of

everything that their government does

but I think in the case of Russia it's a

very it's an extreme situation where the

government is not acting at the will of

the people or at the you know at the

desire of what the people in Russia want

to have happen and it's just obviously

something that needs to stop as soon as

possible and I don't know what the off

ramp is for what's happening but it is

it's and it's disrupted so many people

not only in Russia and Ukraine but of

the Ripple effects through the economy

and we begin to see what we saw during

covid the interconnectedness of the

supply chain and how even one Link in

that supply chain falling apart or being

disrupted has Ripple effects that we

don't even really expect when something

happens and I can't have but draw a

similar parallel obviously not on the

same devastating scale but of a

government not representing its people

with the US government right now and the

whole Tick Tock Scandal and half of the

American population are on Tick Tock and

the sanctions that have been imposed on

this big social media company because of

data and everything else have been

imposed by the will of the government

and not necessarily the will of the

people do you have a take on that well

American politics is also how's that for

conversation yeah I think part of it is

the fact that I from what I see is the

middle ground has been lost in politics

and and it's you know whether it's

because everyone has to get on Twitter

and have the most extreme sound bite to

make it through all the Clutter that's

out there but it seems like

there's there's been a loss of

goals objectives what is fundamental to

a country the the values that a country

has and it's been lost into just trying

to become the most extreme one way or

the other without compromising no

willingness to listen to

the other side the other perspective and

it's something where I mean even you

know running a business it's a matter of

what are the values that you have as a

business and how do those values get

played out in the way you operate I just

was talking with somebody I know who

runs a business and the manager the

director of the business was very

successful they brought that person in a

few months earlier but they weren't they

weren't behaving properly in the office

so kind of bullying and just kind of a

inappropriate abuse of power and the

person said you know we've always saved

people come first and so we have to make

a decision are we going to actually have

our people come first or our profits

going to come first and I think that's

kind of what's happened in what's been

lost in politics we don't have a value

that we're trying to achieve and you and

I may have different ways of achieving

it but we both agree on what it is we're

trying to achieve it seems like we've

lost

a discussion of what the goal is and we

get lost in an argument about how to get

where nobody really agrees where we're

trying to even go

um

and in the UK here we used to laugh at

American politics and send how you

clowns had really got it wrong but we

are really making a mess of things over

here right now so you have not got the

Monopoly on crazy politics well I think

too part of it is if you look at what

happens to politicians it raises the

question of who wants to become a

politician who wants to get into that

where everything you do is criticized by

half the population

um there's so many personal attacks and

I think there's probably a lot of people

that would be happy to be in that middle

of the road or a lot closer to the

middle of the road and work on that

consensus

that just don't want to go through the

terrible experience of being in the

public eye right now yeah I'm bringing

it back to the topic of qualifications

accreditations

I kind of help thinking that's a lot of

accountants I speak to feel it certainly

aspects of the qualifications are not

fit for purpose and they accuse the

people that are set in the exams that

govern embodies the professional

Institutes of being out of touch and not

representing but public accounting or

professional accounting is down there on

the coal face is there some element of

Truth to that well I think there is when

you look at

what a certification is trying to do in

terms of whether or not a certification

is a very broad-based certification or

whether it's kind of more of a niche

certification and not choosing if this

isn't an exam I've ever been involved

with but there's a certification

certified fraud examiner yes well that

seems pretty specific what it should be

okay it's examining fraud and so that a

narrow certification should still be

fairly specific to its target audience

or its Target its goals its values or

its Mission however we want to look at

it yes when you start getting into more

broad-based certifications that are what

people do right out of University or

while they're in University and so CPA

Acca SEMA different kind of broader

based ones yeah there is there is going

to be part of that certification that

nobody's ever going to use you know I

passed the CPA exam 30 years ago one of

those exams was U.S tax

well the tax code today is significantly

different than it was 30 years ago and

so any element of a certification that

deals with tax

is going to kind of be outdated

6 12 18 months after the person passes

that exam and so it's important for the

certification to maintain kind of job

awareness what it is that is happening

in the world one of the exams I'm

involved with CMA Certified Management

accountant they're in the process of

doing their job survey where they go out

to all the members everybody anybody has

the opportunity to share what do you do

in your job essentially and that they're

able to then take that information and

see what it is that people are doing

where things are going what the trends

are and that's where more IIT shows up

in certifications if there's a

certification now in accounting or

finance that doesn't hover data

analytics and the use of all of that

data yeah they've failed to stay

as current as they probably should be

with what it is that people are doing

I remember my days as a maths teacher

Brian where I'm say teaching the

children Pythagoras and right angle

triangles or some algebra and and the

kids are very naturally asking so why

are we doing this we're never going to

use this in real life it's not

applicable to what I'm going to be

facing out there and some accountants do

level that accusation that how relevant

is this what I'm doing right now to

what's going to be happening out there

in the real world and they've got a

point to an extent haven't they they do

and again this comes back to when you

have a job that is very narrow in what

it does yes and part of the way I look

at this is that the larger the company

you're in

most likely the more narrow the scope of

your job if you work for a huge company

you might be an accounts receivable but

if you're in a small company you do

everything capable isn't a full-time job

and so you're in accounts receivable and

payable and so when you get into one of

these you know into a very narrow job

yeah a lot of what you've studied in

your certification is not relevant but

the way I look at it is

a certification really shouldn't be

about what you're doing today

when you choose a certification and look

at your certification it should be based

on five years from now

five years from now I want to be the

finance director I don't want to be the

accounts payable person I want to have a

larger role and so the certification is

part of that education process and

getting those skills and the knowledge

so that when that promotion opportunity

comes up when somebody asks you hey what

what do you want to do next you have an

answer and you've also demonstrated

I'm actually being proactive here and

getting myself in a situation or

position to be able to do that job

five years three years down the line but

honestly Brian how many people know what

they want to be doing in five years

certainly when I think back to when I

was 20 years old I thought I knew it all

but I really knew nothing and I had no

clue about where my life was going and

in what direction I wanted to push it so

they take a qualification with the hope

of getting a broad education broad scope

open up some doors and maybe try a few

things and pick a lane so it does need

to be wide in its remit doesn't it to

hit a lot of bases well I think

the way I when I talk to students yeah

and go back to CFE nobody knows they're

going to become a fraud examiner no

until three weeks before they get

promoted into that position or drafted

into that position yeah and so the

specialty certifications are the ones

that I look at that are a little bit

later in your career

after you have a sense of what it is

that you want to do I mean if you go in

and you get a job in the big four or any

audit firm you don't know what area you

might end up in or what industry you

might end up in if you leave the firm

and go to one of your clients and so at

the beginning those General

certifications are kind of a ticket to

enter

you need to have that certification and

I agree it may not be terribly relevant

but the firm the company you you know

that's part of their resume selection

gets you in the game doesn't it Prime

it's the entry okay yeah and it's

something

we have our oldest son is in college

right now and he's in his second year

and you know he talks about what he

studies in classes and sometimes I kind

of think well that's probably never

going to be used again in your life

after this class is over but part of

that is it's how to learn it's how to

learn how to study and starting to put

pieces together and so from a

certification standpoint when you're

looking into the future even if it's not

something you do right now it's how a

company operates somebody in the company

is doing that at some point you're going

to come into contact with that person

and if you're able to speak

intelligently if you're able to

demonstrate you understand what the

finance function does or what the

procurement function does you're a step

ahead of somebody who doesn't have that

background and doesn't have some base of

knowledge to even to understand what you

don't know I think that's something

that's important too I know enough about

a topic I mean if you take a

professional certification you are not

an expert in anything

you don't come out as having the

equivalent of 20 years of experience in

any field

but you have enough to know what

questions to ask you know enough to

recognize well what you've told me

doesn't make sense or I need a little

more information or something and so

it's it's not necessarily to have every

answer yourself through the

certification process but to know what

you don't know and what questions you

need to ask to get the information that

you need and indeed where to go or who

to ask right to get those questions

answered that's a part of it isn't it

yeah would you say that there's any

competition between certifications we

talked about the CPA exam in the UK

we're here we have the ACC and the

chartered accountancy exam you'll have

seen the differences between them all

Brian is one better than the other are

they just different are they almost the

same

they are different and

which one is better for you comes down

to a couple of things one is if you want

to be a fraud examiner well certified

fraud examiner is the certification that

you need of course but it also has to do

with business perception

and for whatever reason CPA seems to be

recognized around the world as one of

the Premier accounting certifications

but if you look at CPA one of the four

exams is U.S tax

okay so how many people do U.S tax even

in the U.S CPAs aren't involved in in

tax all the time well the U.S dollars

even losing relevance Now isn't it we're

so topical at the moment one of the

exams is audit yeah and so it's possible

that somebody outside the United States

is taking CPA because that's what the

market wants

even though what they're learning

becomes a memorization exercise I need

to learn U.S tax code just to pass this

exam nobody's ever going to ask me a tax

question again nor should they

but I needed to pass this exam and so

part of the issue with certifications is

one way a certification gets value is

the business Community Values it you

look for a job and it says CPA CA

whatever required or preferred

well you may not think that that

specific certification is going to add a

lot of value to you

but if you want a job that's the price

of admission in a sense yeah um and then

also certifications get value because of

government requirements you know you

have to be a CPA in the United States to

sign an audit opinion well outside of

the United States there is no legal

requirement at least not many that I'm

aware of where you have to be a CPA to

do something your company may want you

to be a CPA if you're outside but and so

a lot of it comes down to what the

business Community perceives to have

value and so the competition between the

firms is really to get the HR companies

to Value their certification as one that

they want to put into advertisements for

job placement offers

so let me push back on the perceived

value of the qualification we've heard

stories here on the show of businesses

that are hiring non-accountants to do

their taxes and audits because they're

bringing in software accredited

specialists

and it is very much about the software

you mentioned the importance of tech at

the top of the show so they they say

they don't need qualified accountants so

they'll at least for the majority of the

work they will get it done by people

that know how to use the zero and the

sage and the Intuit and everything else

and who actually needs a qualified CPA

is this some kudos to that I absolutely

agree that is my personal taxes I paid

forty dollars a year I get a software

program it asks me a series of questions

I say yes no and at the end it tells me

if I have a refund or if I owe and so

there are a lot of those positions in a

company that aren't in need of a

certified person the way I look at that

the the kind of responses to where the

certified person belongs is to use that

data to use that information and right

ratio analysis I can give you a formula

and a company's financial statements and

you can calculate any ratio I tell you

the person may not know what it is but

we can say take this number divided by

this number multiply it by that and you

get three

well the certified person or the

knowledgeable person they may not even

be certified but the experienced

knowledgeable person is able to take

that number

and what does it mean

just good is this bad if this is bad

what do we need to do to fix it what are

the issues that led to this and so it's

not the creation of the data that you

need an experienced and certified person

for it's the use of that information for

the company and making decisions

I take your point and we're moving now

from the Realms of compliance

and Regulatory stuff to the area

advisory and what we do with that data

I've got a friend called chat GPT I'm

sure you know him they that can

interpret U.S tax law and interpret

various tax codes and regulations and

everything else and come up with a

pretty good answer

so a lot of that heavy lifting is

already done but it's still there in the

qualifications isn't it

to some extent yes I think it's it's

something that I mean

part of the question about using the

data is do you understand how the data

is created and for example in the CMA

exam they cover accounting but they

don't test debits and credits right it's

what are fixed assets why are what are

the issues that we have about fixed

assets rather than when we buy a fixed

asset what's the debit and the credit

because again that debit and credit you

and I aren't making that anymore in most

cases but what does this information

mean why do we care how do we use this

information and how does this go in with

all of the other information that we

have as a business

to making the decisions that that we

make and it's again

in terms of taxes

of I don't understand in the United

States how so many people don't do their

own taxes because it's up to a certain

point it is yes no yes yes no yes yes

isn't it really right and you and you

can upload your tax documents to the

software and it does it all magically

but when you start getting into

corporations and you start getting into

different types of investment vehicles

that's where you want your you know

that's where chat GPT is probably not

your best Tax Advisor or tax planning

but I agree there's a lot of that kind

of basic information data entry that

doesn't need to be tested it's that data

analysis and the use of that information

and making decisions that makes good

sense so what degree do you feel a

profession has an image problem Brian

and I'm alluding here to the fact that

fewer and fewer people are taking

accounting degrees few and fewer people

are coming into the accounting

profession

people are leaching out of public and

private accounting we call it private

accounting here to go into industry and

into Commerce and maybe out of the

accounting professional together so

that's not just because of the the

qualifications that are arduous and

rightly so it's because the profession

as a whole So speaking to that a little

bit for us I think a lot of it's

lifestyle and the perception is that if

you go in work for the big four or you

know you're you're going to work however

many 60 80 hours a week during busy

season and business keeps getting longer

and longer for whatever reason yeah in

the U.S part of the problem is to take

the CPA exam you need to have a master's

in accountancy so it's a five-year

degree and so I said my son's in college

if he wants to go into accounting it's a

five-year degree

and he doesn't make any more or he can

go into Finance get a four-year degree

and make more than if you stayed the

fifth year in accounting and so kind of

becomes an accounting question yeah or

you're going to a law degree and you

come out with the starting salary of 120

150 000 a year and not 60 or 70 000 a

year and you think um what should I do

here but I think I think part of it too

is lifestyle just in terms of the

perception and people are realizing that

you know I don't need to spend all that

time for three years

working 80 hours a week

the upside isn't there and there's other

Alternatives going into industry one of

the things when I write speak to

students I say you know you want to

follow your passion well your passion

might be music and maybe you can't sing

or play an instrument but you love music

well the music industry has accountants

the music industry has Finance people so

go work for a record label as the

account in the accounting department and

there's there's ways that we can connect

with what it is we enjoy doing in life

as part of our profession without being

a professional athlete or professional

musician or whatever the case may be and

that doesn't require being an auditor

for three years at the beginning of your

career so yeah there is a there is a

shortage of people coming into it into

the profession coming out of college and

that's

you know it's it's a in a sense it's a

you know we're talking about math

earlier it's an applied math question

this is the cost of my five-year

education this is the benefit this is

the cost of a four-year education and I

make more money with one less year of

education so

I'm passionate I'm fascinated about what

your job involves Brian I remember back

when I was teaching mathematics

I ended up coming out of teaching

because I was coaching coaching kids to

pass tests it became more about that

coaching and the test and the exam type

League tables if you like then it was

about educating children but you're very

much in the business aren't you of

coaching and helping people to pass

intense rigorous academic qualifications

so what is your role involve

there is an element of coaching I think

a lot of it comes down to motivation

um when you're studying and you have a

two-year plan that you're going to be

studying it takes some commitment to to

make it through that because we know in

today's world there's all kinds of

alternatives for our attention and to

come home and Tuesday night you're going

to study and not do whatever other

Alternatives your friends have come up

with it's a sacrifice isn't it right and

so part of it is motivation part of it

is just kind of helping people

keep their eyes to what it is that

they're doing I always say when you

start a certification there's one

question that if you can answer it

correctly you'll pass and if you can't

answer it correctly you'll fail just so

you can start at the beginning the

question is why are you doing it why do

you want to become whatever

certification it is

and the nice thing is is there's really

no incorrect answer to this you just

have to have an answer

and I when we used to have live taught

classes I'd ask a group and people would

say oh I want to be smarter I want to

learn more you know but then finally

some Brave person would say I want more

money

and I said yeah that's the reason most

people

start a certification is they want more

money and you just need to remember that

that this period of sacrifice to pass

the exam is going to be a better job a

promotion a higher salary a bonus and

that's what it is that I'm I'm trying to

do but if you don't know why you're

doing it don't start because

Tuesday night you're going to end up

doing something other than studying yes

mindset is such an important part of it

so the qualifications themselves I've

got a black belt in kickboxing and

you'll appreciate then I'll give those

away they don't give a CPA qualification

away without a lot of hard work and and

many people fail it same with the

chartered accountancy qualification what

is good

about accounting qualifications right

now

well the thing that I think is the big

the biggest benefit of it has to do with

individuals who

in a sense want to move locations okay

and

this has to do with the university you

attended okay I went to Miami University

and if I say to somebody outside of

where I live that I went to Miami

University they think I went to Miami

Florida and they have pictures of Disney

World and sunshine and palm trees yep

the Miami I went to is in the state of

Ohio it snows and so the when I went to

Miami my Miami it was a top five

accounting program in the country

but nobody knows that wow and so when I

go outside of whatever geographic area

that people know Miami is a good school

my education means nothing it's just you

know I I don't know where you went and I

don't know how good of a university that

is so if I want to go to another country

or to another part of the country

my education okay I have a bachelor's

degree but you know who knows well once

you pass a professional certification

whatever it is

everybody knows well that's the exam

this is the syllabus that this person

knows 70 75 percent of maybe not all of

it but they they know most of it

Universal it's transferable right it's a

passport it demonstrates you have this

body of knowledge because I may have

studied a set of classes in my

accounting degree and you may have

studied most you know a lot similar but

I took an International Accounting track

and you took a tax track or something

like that and so your accounting

education and my accounting education

are different

but once we've both passed the same exam

well maybe your county University was

better than mine worse than mine

whatever but here's a standardized test

that we have both passed and we know we

know what we know yeah

that's a very good diplomatic answer

let's say then I made you the tsar and

the overlord of accounting

qualifications worldwide and you are

above all the governing bodies and

professional institutes and

accreditations and universities and

everything you are the man so I'm hiring

you for this job if you get it you start

Monday what would be one of the first

things you would want to put right Brian

well

I'm not going to make any friends with

my students or people and I would I

would make the exams harder

that's interesting I would I understand

that

multiple choices easy to grade and quick

to grade and it doesn't require people

to read it but to me there needs to be

an element of

whether you call it a case study or

something but where you bring the

knowledge from different parts of the

exam together being eroded from

qualifications Prime of these

um

some yes I think

um some are only multiple choice that I

know some have some element of writing

in it but it's a smaller I don't want

writing from the standpoint of do you

know where to put commas and can you

spell every word perfectly and all of

that but just the the community bringing

together information outside of a

multiple choice question yeah and and

are are you able to you know and maybe

even questions where there's not a right

answer but you know explain why what do

you think the company should do what's

the strategy that the company what are

the things that the company needs to

take into account and so those large

case study competitions that

universities have and the I'd like to

see more of that within the exam and not

as much of a and less of a Reliance on

multiple choice quite and I understand

there's great science behind them and

they're and it's not just a random

question that somebody's created but I

would like to see more of a synthesis of

all of that information that an exam

covers into

a more comprehensive approach that's a

very honest answer and talking to some

of my friends in education there's

certainly an accusation that A Levels

which is the main qualification in the

United Kingdom you would call it high

school over there in the US but we we

got very deep with three of our subjects

that those a-level exams that you come

out with at 18 have become easier and

the reason for that is because grades

have become higher

and some say it's because the exams have

become easier another says because the

study habits now and the online tools

and the videos and YouTubes and

everything else and the way we teach and

the way we learn and the coaching has

become more prevalent is there any

truth in accounting qualifications

becoming easier or

pass marks going down or more people

qualifying well I think for most exams

the pass rate stays fundamentally the

same okay I understand it may go from 45

to 48 or right I mean but but it kind of

bounces around that 45 to 55

percent but I think

well when I took the CPA exam there was

four exams and I had to go two exams on

Wednesday and two exams on Thursday wow

so it was

16 hours of exams over two days yeah

well now it's one exam at a time you

take one exam then you study for the

next exam and you and so

is that easier did they make the exam

harder

um and so with a pass rate too you know

you can

have a Target pass rate that you want to

achieve as an organization and get to

that I think it's it's a question that's

a very valid question is in terms of

what we expect from students even here

in high school college

um I you know I said my son's in college

and uh I guess I'm now old enough to be

one of those people that says when I was

young but I it seems like there's a

slightly different

um

requirement for exams and accounting

exams and I remember when I was in

college and so you know a different

culture I guess different way that

students learn and what we expect of

them probably starting very early in

their educational career

and with the younger generation you see

coming through if you were to Advocate a

more rigorous

case study based approach to

examinations how would that go down

that would be a tough sell wouldn't it

probably

um if it proves to be more difficult I

what I would like to do by making it

diff more difficult is to separate

people who've just memorized yes the in

the bullet points that's fair I want the

test to be more than just the bullet

points and this is one of the things

when we with our materials we try to

make it so that we want you to

understand the concepts I don't want to

give you a mnemonic device that these

are the five words you need to know yeah

I want you to know what those five words

mean what those five words represent why

we have those five words and not just in

the multiple choice question like oh

that one's not one of the five words I

memorized so therefore it must be right

answer or there's only one of the five

words I want it to be tell me about

those five words what's the why is that

number important why did we learn these

five words and so I I would like to

think that for students who have taken

their preparation seriously

it really doesn't change their result

but for students that are just trying to

I'm going to memorize the the fewest

things I need to memorize I'm going to

hack it yeah yeah good to just try to

you know maybe I fail but I if I get

lucky on this one or I'll either get

lucky this attempt or the next one and

I'll make it yeah that's very fair Brian

this has been an excellent conversation

on the world of qualifications as it

pertains to the accounting World a

couple more questions to finish off we

will put on your our show notes Hawk

International Hawk training this stuff

that you do but for the benefit of

people that go to your website what kind

of things would they see and how can you

help them

we help people right now pass the

certified management accounting exam

which is as the name indicates

management accounting as I said it

covers some fun very good business

certification if you're an entrepreneur

if you're running your own business this

is what you need we also have certified

internal auditor

um materials helping people who want to

get into internal audit who are who or

who are already in internal audit we are

going to be rolling out probably by the

time this gets made out posted uh

enrolled agent the U.S tax certification

and we're just looking to kind of build

out a library of the support that we can

provide to professionals

um a growing library of exams we've been

doing it for 20 years now and we've

enjoyed every minute of it and we're

looking to to build out we've done CPA

in the past we might be doing CPA again

in the future

but it's just a matter of helping and

also one of the things I tell people is

if you talk to me about what exams you

should study I'm very likely to tell you

not to study one of the ones I have

material for because if it's not what's

going to serve you in your career I

don't want to I don't want you to spend

your time and money on something that in

two years you're gonna think what was he

talking about when he told me to do this

it's all personal in terms of what you

want to do with your career and whether

or not we can help you do that

is that a trend as well Brian are we

seeing more and more Niche specialist

qualifications where we have the

certified trusted advisor the Certified

International tax specialist and I'm

making these up but you get the idea

well you might not be there might

actually be those yeah it is becoming

one of the things too is that there's a

lot of certifications that are

essentially

courses that are offered by that body

then whatever body it is they've they've

got a self-study course they've got

their own course about you know

International tax planning and I

apologize if there is one that does this

but just an organization says oh we're

going to make a course and we're going

to make an exam and when

the exam is given by the same people

that write the materials and it's kind

of a closed Circle

that's almost like a continuing

education course that they're trying to

make into a certification and so the

those Niche certifications run that risk

of just becoming a just a closed Circle

a closed community but when you're

talking about Acca and SEMA and CPA

these are programs that universities run

yes that companies have programs that

all of their staff go through or they

internationally recognized yes and so

it's a matter of those certifications

are going to

still be those leading certifications

that businesses want their people to do

because it's learning more than just one

little niche thing but yes there are

going to be all kinds of Niche

certificates that are created partially

Because the Internet allows those Niche

Professionals in different countries to

connect whereas 20 years ago

they may not have had that opportunity

to connect to create a body to

to put together an exam but now they can

and quickly Brian do you play in the CP

space in the UK we call it continued

professional development CPD are you in

that at this moment no we're not I would

expect by the end of the year we

probably will be because that's how

qualifications stay relevant current up

today isn't it well ideally that's how

it is as long as the CPE continues to

stay relevant to what's happening and I

think one of the things is you take tax

if you're a tax professional your tax

CPE every year needs to be

the tax code for whatever jurisdictions

it is that you're that you're working in

if you're looking at accounting or

auditing a lot of it needs to be I.T

based in terms of the technology the

tools the analytics

um just even the amount of data that's

collected every day these days increases

um and so yeah CPE is important it's

what makes my 30 year old CPA exam

hopefully still means something if I I

I'm not licensed I haven't maintained it

but hopefully helps that have value

going forward and you don't sit down and

ask your CPA for advice and you get 30

year old advice based on when they took

the exam yeah but yeah that it's it's a

an important market and one that

hopefully is adding value and isn't just

a again getting back to making it more

difficult not just a tick box that says

yes I sat through this webinar for 45

minutes and I answered three poll

questions and therefore I get

an hour of CPE or whatever the case may

be it's a bit of a mockery isn't it I

find a question Brian this has been

fascinating let's get your crystal ball

out you've been in this game a long time

you've seen a lot of change here and

you've seen a lot of good things built

into the qualifications and

accreditations what do you think we're

going to be in five ten years what will

things look like then from what you see

now

I think there's going to be

a recognition that there's a lot more

International connection and

certifications are going to start

becoming more relevant around the world

and not just a national certification

but there's going to be some element of

hey you know International is part of

business today

um I think I also hope that

people begin to think past just the exam

right now I think a lot of people see

their certification as I took the exam

I'm done I'm going to do my CPE every

year tick the boxes and put it on my

business card

there needs to be a development of the

profession itself and the professional

organizations that you're a member of

once you pass these exams that's all the

networking that staying current that's

actual continuing education when you go

to these conferences and events where

they have speakers from businesses and

people that are implementing these

things and people that are dealing with

chat GPT in their business and their

Tech and their service or however it is

that they're dealing with it and so I

would like to see a continued growth of

the profession

part of professional certifications

certifications I think is very well

developed and everybody knows those but

there's actually two words professional

certification

and so I think maybe there's going to be

a development I'd like to see a

development of that professional part

that organization those skills in

addition to just the debits and credits

but what it means to be a professional

well what would go a long way towards

that Brian to put in my two penny worth

as we say here is stopping calling it an

accounting industry and starting to call

it an accounting profession because it

came to the legal profession and the

medical profession these people sweat

Blood and Tears to get the

qualifications and then demean it by

making it blue collar no offense but

putting industry next to it and so many

influencers and people within accounting

use that face particularly in the US I

have to say

well it is a profession and yes and part

of being a profession is main well one

of the I look at as being part of a

profession is you're aware that others

around you are part of it yes and that's

not just you against the world but if

I'm an accountant and you're an

accountant we we're connected to each

other and how what you do as an

accountant will reflect a little bit on

me and and when you see the companies go

bankrupt two weeks after their audit

report came out that everything is fine

there's a there's a hit to the

profession there that people begin to

say well wait a second they just got an

audit report that said everything's fine

two weeks later they're under

it I mean the ink wasn't even dry yet

yeah and there's problems and so that's

part of being a profession that what

happens within one part of the

profession does impact both positively

and negatively you know it's one of the

things I say when you're whatever

certification you are the only reason

that certification has value is because

the people who came before you

got that certification and did well

and the business Community said hey you

know I know somebody who had that

certification they did really well I'm

going to give you a benefit of the doubt

I'm going to hire you hoping that you

share those same characteristics as the

other people I know with that

certification and that whole profession

is part of that

Amen to that Brian Hawk superb message

thanks so much for your passionate and

you're interested that's been excellent

thank you

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