Namescon 2024 | Andrew Miller’s High-Stakes Deals — How Does He Do It?

Summary

In this engaging session, industry veterans Andrew Miller and Ron Jackson delve into the high-stakes world of domain deals. They discuss Andrew's remarkable sales history, including notable domain sales like beer.com for $7 million and the record-breaking chat.com for $15.5 million. The conversation highlights Andrew's unique business philosophy influenced by the Grateful Dead's collaborative spirit and the importance of doing what you love. They also touch on the challenges of domain valuations, the impact of reported sales on market perception, and the parallels between the domain industry and other emerging markets like sports betting.

Takeaways

• 😀 Andrew Miller's success in high-stakes domain deals is attributed to his detailed approach and transparency in sharing how he makes these deals happen.
• 🤝 The importance of collaboration in business is highlighted, drawing parallels from the Grateful Dead's approach to their music and their influence on businesses like HubSpot.
• 🎓 Andrew Miller's early career in the domain industry started with learning from his family and early business ventures, which helped shape his philosophies that serve him today.
• 🔍 The value of domain names is compared to other assets, emphasizing their unique potential for high returns on investment due to their singularity and the buyer's perception of value.
• 💡 Andrew's philosophy of doing what you love is underscored as a key to success, drawing from his love for music and how it translated into different stages of his career.
• 🤑 The conversation underscores the importance of confidentiality in domain sales, as public disclosure of prices can anchor and limit the potential for higher valuations.
• 🏆 The comparison between domains and sports betting/daily fantasy highlights the obsessive nature required to excel in these fields and the tight-knit communities that form around them.
• 🤝 The concept of 'coopetition' is mentioned, where both competition and cooperation can drive the industry forward and benefit all parties involved.
• 💰 The script discusses the challenges of domain valuation due to the unique nature of each domain and the difficulty of appraisals in such a market.
• 🚀 Andrew Miller's history includes significant sales such as beer.com for $7 million, demonstrating the substantial value that can be achieved in the domain industry.
• 🤖 The script touches on the early days of the internet and the foresight of brands like the NFL and the Grateful Dead in leveraging the technology for business.

Q & A

What industry is Dennis excited about and why?

Dennis is excited about the industry involving high-stakes deals, particularly those made by Andrew Miller. He is interested in the details and strategies behind making such big deals happen and appreciates Andrew's transparency and detail-oriented approach in sharing how he accomplishes these deals.

What is the significance of Andrew Miller's sales history mentioned in the script?

Andrew Miller's sales history is significant because it showcases his successful track record in the domain industry with high-value sales such as beer.com for $7 million, insurancequotes.com for $6.5 million, and diamond.com for $6 million. These sales demonstrate his expertise and the substantial returns in the domain industry.

Why is the Grateful Dead mentioned in relation to Andrew Miller's business philosophy?

The Grateful Dead is mentioned because Andrew Miller's business philosophy was heavily influenced by the band. Their approach to music, collaboration, and treating their fans with openness and generosity parallels the principles he applies in his domain business, emphasizing the importance of collaboration and doing what you love.

What is the connection between the Grateful Dead and HubSpot's success?

HubSpot's co-founder, Brian Halligan, was inspired by the marketing lessons of the Grateful Dead, which he detailed in a book. These lessons influenced the strategies that led to HubSpot's success, showing a direct connection between the band's principles and the company's $32 billion market cap.

What is the 'Zone of Possible Agreement' (ZPA) in the context of domain sales?

The 'Zone of Possible Agreement' (ZPA) refers to the range within which a deal can be successfully negotiated between a buyer and a seller. It is the price range that both parties are willing to accept, which can vary greatly depending on the unique circumstances of the deal.

Why does Andrew Miller prefer confidentiality in domain transactions?

Andrew Miller prefers confidentiality because it prevents anchoring, which can limit the potential value of a domain by setting an expectation based on previously reported sales. Keeping prices undisclosed allows for the market to bear what it will, without being influenced by past sales figures.

What is the importance of collaboration in the domain industry according to the script?

Collaboration is important in the domain industry as it allows for the sharing of knowledge, resources, and opportunities. It enables professionals to help each other achieve better results, as seen in the successful partnerships between Andrew Miller and others like Larry Fisher, which led to significant sales like home.com.

What role did Michael Milken play in shaping Andrew Miller's approach to deal making?

Michael Milken influenced Andrew Miller's approach to deal making by emphasizing the importance of collaboration over competition. Milken's philosophy that '50% of something is worth a lot more than 100% of nothing' taught Miller the value of partnering with others to achieve greater success.

How does the script describe the domain industry's relationship with valuations and comparables?

The script describes the domain industry as unique because it lacks standardized pricing parameters and relies heavily on the buyer's perception of value. Domains are compared to pieces of art, where the value is determined by the buyer's desire and the potential the domain holds for their venture.

What is the challenge mentioned in the script regarding the perception of domain names by CEOs, founders, and investors?

The challenge is to make CEOs, founders, investors, VCs, private equity firms, and family offices truly understand the importance and value of domain names. Despite some progress, there is still a significant gap between the current perception and the ideal understanding of domain names' significance.

How does the script relate the domain industry to sports betting and daily fantasy?

The script relates the domain industry to sports betting and daily fantasy by highlighting the similarities in their communities. Both industries have tight-knit, early-adapter communities that are diverse, entrepreneurial, and heavily engaged in social media and online platforms.

Outlines

00:00

😀 Introduction to High Stakes Deals Discussion

The session begins with an introduction to a conversation about high stakes deals, focusing on Andrew Miller's expertise in this area. The speaker expresses excitement to learn from Andrew's detailed experiences and insights on how major deals are orchestrated and successfully closed. The panel includes Ron Jackson and Andrew Miller, who are welcomed on stage, setting the stage for an engaging and informative discussion on deal-making strategies.

05:03

🎙️ The Impact of Grateful Dead's Philosophy on Business

This paragraph delves into the surprising influence of the Grateful Dead's philosophy on Andrew Miller's business approach. It highlights how the band's principles of collaboration, openness, and doing what you love have shaped Miller's success in the domain industry. The speaker also mentions his own experience with the band, including their innovative business strategies that have influenced modern marketing practices, as evidenced by HubSpot's founder Brian Halligan's book, 'The Marketing Lessons of the Grateful Dead'.

10:03

🤝 The Power of Collaboration and Experimentation in Domain Sales

The speaker discusses the importance of an open mind and collaboration in the domain sales industry, drawing parallels with the improvisational and collaborative nature of the Grateful Dead's performances. The paragraph emphasizes the need for experimentation and considering unconventional buyers for domain names to achieve successful sales. It also touches on the unique potential of domain names as an investment, highlighting their high return on investment compared to traditional assets.

15:04

📈 The Wall Street Influence on Deal Making

The paragraph explores the impact of Wall Street and Michael Milken's philosophies on the speaker's approach to deal making. It discusses the importance of viewing every day as a new opportunity and the value of collaboration over competition. The speaker shares insights from Milken's training program and later experiences, emphasizing the philosophy that '50% of something is better than 100% of nothing,' which has significantly influenced his approach to domain sales and collaborations.

20:06

🔑 The Unique Value of Domain Names and the Challenge of Valuations

This paragraph addresses the complexities and challenges of valuing domain names due to their unique nature and the lack of standardized pricing parameters. The speaker criticizes the reliance on reported sales for valuation and argues against the practice of domain appraisals. The discussion highlights the importance of understanding the market's willingness to pay and the role of the buyer's imagination and needs in determining a domain's value.

25:08

🏆 The Significance of Confidentiality in High-End Domain Sales

The speaker expresses a strong belief in maintaining confidentiality in high-end domain sales, discussing the potential negative effects of publicly reported sales on valuations. The paragraph explores the concept of anchoring, where reported prices can limit the potential value of domain names by setting market expectations. The speaker shares experiences where undisclosed sales have facilitated larger deals and emphasizes the importance of keeping transaction details private to maximize value.

30:11

📊 The Reporting of Domain Sales and Its Market Impact

This paragraph examines the practice of reporting domain sales and its impact on the industry's perception and growth. The speaker points out the limitations of publicly available sales data and criticizes companies that report low sale figures, arguing that it can be detrimental to the industry. The discussion also touches on the challenges of conveying the true value of domain names to CEOs, investors, and the mainstream market, emphasizing the need for a shift in understanding and appreciation for the asset class.

35:13

🎲 The Parallels Between Domains and Daily Fantasy Sports

The speaker draws parallels between the domain industry and the world of daily fantasy sports, highlighting the shared characteristics of both communities, such as early adoption, entrepreneurship, and a strong presence on social media. The paragraph discusses the growth potential of the sports betting industry as a significant market for domain names and the importance of recognizing the unique value proposition of domains in this context.

40:15

🤝 Closing Thoughts on the Domain Industry and Future Discussions

In the closing paragraph, the speaker expresses a desire to continue the conversation with Andrew Miller, acknowledging the enjoyment and value derived from their discussions. The paragraph hints at the possibility of future talks and the potential for further exploration of topics related to the domain industry, emphasizing the ongoing interest and engagement in this dynamic market.

Keywords

💡High stakes deals

High stakes deals refer to significant business transactions that involve large sums of money and carry substantial risk or potential reward. In the context of the video, Andrew Miller is noted for his expertise in such deals, with the script highlighting his ability to detail the intricacies of these transactions, which is a central theme of the discussion.

💡Transparency

Transparency in this video refers to the openness and communication about the processes and details involved in making high stakes deals. The script mentions Andrew's commitment to being transparent as much as possible, which is integral to learning and understanding the complex nature of deal-making.

💡Domain names

Domain names are unique identifiers used to access websites on the Internet. The video discusses the value and sales of high-value domain names, such as beer.com and insurancequotes.com, which Andrew Miller has been involved in selling. The script uses these domain sales to illustrate the success and philosophy behind his business ventures.

💡Philosophy of life

The philosophy of life mentioned in the script refers to the guiding beliefs and principles that influence one's actions and decisions. Andrew Miller's life philosophy, shaped by his love for the Grateful Dead and early business experiences, is highlighted as a key factor contributing to his success in the domain business.

💡Grateful Dead

The Grateful Dead is an American rock band known for their dedicated fan base and unique approach to music and business. In the video, Andrew Miller's love for the band is discussed, and how their business practices, such as collaboration and doing what you love, have influenced his own business philosophy and success.

💡Collaboration

Collaboration is the act of working together with others toward a common goal. The script emphasizes the importance of collaboration in the domain industry, drawing parallels to the Grateful Dead's approach, and how Andrew Miller applies this concept in his business dealings.

💡Innovation

Innovation refers to the introduction of new ideas or methods. The video discusses how the Grateful Dead was innovative in their approach to music distribution, allowing fans to record their shows, which is compared to the innovative strategies needed in the domain name industry.

💡Domain sales

Domain sales are transactions where domain names are bought and sold. The script provides examples of significant domain sales that Andrew Miller has been involved in, such as chat.com for 15.5 million dollars, illustrating the high stakes and potential profits in this market.

💡Confidentiality

Confidentiality in the video pertains to the privacy of transaction details, particularly the prices of domain sales. Andrew Miller expresses his belief in keeping these details confidential to avoid anchoring the value of domain names and to maintain the unique nature of each deal.

💡Market value

Market value is the price at which an asset would trade in a competitive auction. The script discusses the difficulty in establishing market value for domain names due to their unique nature and the lack of standardized pricing, which is a central theme in the discussion of domain sales.

💡Early adapters

Early adapters are individuals or groups who are among the first to adopt new technologies or ideas. The script mentions the domain industry and daily fantasy sports as areas populated by early adapters, highlighting the innovative and forward-thinking nature of these communities.

Highlights

Dennis discusses the intricacies of high-stakes deals and the importance of transparency in sharing details.

Andrew Miller's approach to detailing the process behind big deals for learning opportunities.

Introduction of Ron Jackson and Andrew Miller to the stage for a conversation on deals and strategies.

The significance of keeping the conversation engaging with humor and a relaxed atmosphere.

Andrew's current prominence due to DN Journal's cover story detailing his early years and philosophies.

The impressive sales figures of domain names like beer.com and insurancequotes.com, highlighting the value of domain names.

Andrew's continuous pursuit of excellence in the domain business despite past successes.

The partnership with Larry Fisher on significant sales like home.com and the dynamics of their collaboration.

Andrew's philosophy of life and its influence on his success in the domain industry.

The revelation of Andrew's business philosophy being influenced by the band Grateful Dead.

Andrew's early involvement with the Grateful Dead and how it shaped his business approach.

The story of HubSpot's founder and the connection to the Grateful Dead's marketing lessons.

Andrew's emphasis on collaboration and its parallels with the Grateful Dead's approach to music and fans.

The importance of doing what you love in business, as exemplified by the Grateful Dead's dedication to their music.

Andrew's experience with Wall Street and learning from Michael Milken's deal-making strategies.

The impact of confidentiality in domain sales and its effect on valuation and deal-making.

Andrew's perspective on the uniqueness of domain names as assets and the challenges of appraisal.

The comparison between domain sales and the sports betting industry, highlighting the passion and early adapter nature of both communities.

Transcripts

We are gonna roll right into our next session.

Um, Dennis, I know you being really in this industry. Yeah.

What are you excited for most on Andrew

Miller's high stakes deals?

Well, there's so much that goes into

making those big deals happen.

Right? And without you being in that big deal,

you may not find out all the details.

And Andrew always does an excellent job going into detail of

how he does it, being transparent as much as he can share.

And he really goes into that great detail, where is

where we can learn from?

So I'm really excited to hear those little tidbits of

what he'll be sharing on how it really goes down.

Absolutely. And for that conversation we have Ron

Jackson and Andrew Miller.

Welcome to the stage gentlemen.

Thank you, Alan. I Appreciate that. Thank you.

Let's see. Let's get a bottle.

This is gonna be an interesting conversation.

Let's keep the whistle wet. This will come in handy.

We a mess. We are gonna have a good time here.

And, um, the glasses, it gonna be a little bit different.

Get, get the glasses out.

I bring mine in advance so I don't have to go

through the embarrassing part

of putting them on, off and on.

I'll just be off and on. That

way people don't notice it at all.

Having, um, this opportunity to sit down

with Andrew at this point in time, uh, worked out so well

because he happens to be the, um, topic

of our current cover story at DN Journal, which, uh, if,

if we sat here, take about maybe the whole day

to recount what's in that story.

'cause we start literally with your birth.

We go through all your childhood, uh, early years

where you develop a lot of philosophies

that serve you well today from things you learned from your

family and early business career and early ENT enterprises.

So the thing to do on that would be if you, um,

after this session, of course not while we're doing it, go

to Google, put in DN journal, Andrew Miller,

and you actually probably see two cover stories come up.

One is the one that's on the front page right now.

So that's easy to find. And the other, back in 2005,

we did the first cover story I did on Andrew when I met him

at what I think was the second traffic show ever.

Rick Schwartz. Yeah. And it, it was really crazy

'cause I almost couldn't really believe him at first.

Lemme get this list here so I don't forget some of these.

But at this, this, this is early on.

I mean, the very first domain conference ever was 2004.

So here comes Andrew, who I hadn't met a, a year later

and he already had under his belt these sales.

And, and this is just some of 'em.

'cause most of yours, the price still

to this day probably hasn't come out probably.

So we have beer.com, $7 million.

That's almost the value

of the beer you've drank in your life.

So it's pretty impressive.

I like to put things in relative terms.

'cause seven million's, a big numbers.

So it can be hard to grasp that stuff.

Uh, insurance quotes.com, six

and a half million dollars diamond.com, $6 million.

I mean, one guy, if you any of us sold one of those things,

we'd be, you know, we'd be done, we'd be happy for, for life

and might not even pursue anymore.

So, I mean, what's the point? But you just

keep, I mean, you just never learn.

You just keep on going, doing the same thing

over and over and over.

That's supposed to be the definition

of insanity Game Broker.

Don't fix it. Right? Yeah, I guess.

But anyhow, I'm not even done yet.

Uh, shop.com and credit cards.com, again, 2005, three

and a half million dollars.

By the time I met you, you had telephone.com to me

and that wasn't enough for you.

'cause you, you got equity in the company too.

That's the Rick Schwartz kind of a deal there.

He always insisted on didn't turn out as good as Rick's.

Is that Yeah, well, yeah.

He had a really nice one there, but, uh,

all this 20 years ago.

So it's really an amazing thing.

Now, uh, we could talk a lot more about the mechanics

of doing deals like that, but after I do a, a session right

after Andrew with Jen Sale, he'll be back up here

with my good friend Larry Fisher,

who you've partnered on some amazing sales home.com, uh,

being one that you and Larry had a session

about up here last year.

That was one of the best sessions

of the entire NamesCon show last year.

Uh, and, um, also, Andrew Ner is gonna be sitting in

with you, and I always thought it was like really

competitive at the top here.

You got, are you and Larry, you somehow made a friend out

of Larry, but you, and you've got two and same name even

and you're, you're both killing it.

So that's gonna be interesting.

We, we'll, you know, sit in there

and see if we can, if I have

to, I'll come up and keep the piece.

They're both the best. They're,

they're all, they're all great.

There's no question about it.

So what, because they're going to do

that part of it shortly.

What I wanted to talk to Andrew about more is his philosophy

of life, kind of that he developed over the years,

because he credits so much of this philosophy to the success

that he's had in the domain business,

both back then and today.

And, and when I jumped to today,

you thought those numbers from 2005 were impressive.

You all have heard about the chat.com sale at,

at hilco Digital assets that Andrew, uh, got done

for 15 and a half million dollars.

You heard about Gold just, uh,

was revealed in the last few weeks.

That's the biggest sale of the year to date.

8,515,000 if I, if I recall correctly,

that's like seven times bigger than the next highest sale

that's been reported so far this year.

And of course it was the home

and last year the, the price on that wasn't out.

But speculation is,

that's a pretty big number no doubt on that one.

So he is had all of those sales as well.

But as far as his philosophy, I think the,

the, the thing that surprised me most,

and he told me about this 20 years ago, is that a lot of

his business thinking came from his love

of the band, the Grateful Dead.

And I'm not, not even kidding, that was part

of the headline in 2005.

I said, this can't possibly be right.

I'm a big music fan too.

Grew up listening to sixties, seventies music

and to me, a Grateful Dead loved the music,

but they're like this kinda like a bunch of hippies, right?

They did what, what they know about business.

And it turns out they knew a lot about business.

No question. So Andrew loved them.

Not only did he love them, you ended up working

with them in his, one

of his very first enterprises as a businessman.

Market Vision, which I understand was like

live event production.

You had a television show. It was television

Programming and live events, right.

Various established brands. Right.

Which is how I found the internet. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, through these brands who were very early right?

The NFL teams and,

and the Grateful Dead, the Grateful Dead was selling

products on the intranet

before there was an inter public internet.

Yeah. So you had them, you had the Allman Brothers,

you had a crazy list of artists.

So let's go back to that

and explain to people how,

what it was it about the Grateful Dead

that plays into making Andrew Miller,

who he is right now. Before

I do that, I just want everyone

to give a thank you to Ron.

I mean, Ron is a, it's an honor to be up here with him.

Um, thank you. If there, you know, I know Drew

and uh, Jen who are following

with Ron today feel the same way.

I mean, there's Mount Rushmore

of this industry, Ron's on it.

Oh, truly. And he's been doing this from day one.

And, um, so I feel Well, thank you, privileged

to be sitting here with you.

I appreciate that. Um, so you guys have all heard

of a company called HubSpot?

I I heard that name. Yeah.

Yeah. I think the last $32 billion market cap, um,

you know, $600 Stock Dharma Shaw, the founder

and chairman of HubSpot bought chat.com from us

for 15.5 million.

Uh, which he decided to slip out

by mistake on a podcast a month ago

and allowed for this price to be out there, uh,

because it was not supposed to be.

Um, but the co-founder

of, uh, HubSpot is a guy named Brian Halligan.

And Brian, I met Brian in 2005

because I was invited to,

I got a phone call from the Grateful Dead Organization

saying, Hey, we have this event in Boston where I live

and we don't have enough people to go,

but this guy is writing a book on the marketing

lessons of the Grateful Dead.

Would you go? And I'm like, sure. I didn't go to anything.

Grateful Dead. So I show up in my own city in this a little

apartment with like eight people, 12 people there,

and the guy's author is Brian Halligan.

And, and Dharma Shaw, his friend was there.

Um, and they're like, oh yeah,

we started this company called HubSpot out

of this apartment, six of us.

And this was way at the beginning.

And he's like, I wrote this book

because everything we're doing at HubSpot is built

around the marketing lessons of the Grateful Dead.

And that's why I wrote a book,

which is on Amazon called The Marketing

Lessons at a Grateful Dead.

And this resonates with me because it's my philosophy.

So, you know, as we tell this story, HubSpot

and its $32 billion value 20

or whatever, 18, 17 years later, um,

was built on this same philosophy, which is pretty crazy.

And Brian, you know, wrote that book in the beginning

and now that book carries a lot more meaning.

Yeah. So that just, you know, people don't realize that.

And I con sometimes post about buying this

book 'cause it's an amazing book.

So I don't, I don't wanna spend tons

of times on the Grateful Dead.

But you know, some of you guys, Mark Daniel,

you know, will understand this.

Yeah. But, um, there were some things

that the Grateful Dead at the Be did in their history at the

beginning that people thought were crazy,

that were ex became

to be extremely innovative in the business sense.

So one of them was, you know, collaboration, right?

They were all about, Hey, we're not gonna,

so much in the music industry was secretive

and, uh, possessive.

And they're like, we're not gonna do that.

We're gonna let fans come in with microphones

and tape our shows and they can sell the

music and they can leave with the music.

And it was so collaborative.

And, you know, that was in one example where other,

you know, they shared their songs openly.

And I think, you know,

there's a famous Grateful Dead quote from a famous song

of theirs called, um, that's once in a while you get shone

the light in the strangers of places if you look at it.

Right? And I think domains are very similar to that.

I often say, and I know my peers would agree with me,

you almost never sell a domain name to

who you think should buy it.

Just 'cause you, let's say I get a call from someone

who has a great domain name and they're like, I think so

and so Should's gonna buy it.

And I'm like, they're probably not going to.

Um, the odds are pretty good that who you

and I think should buy it ultimately won't.

And, you know,

you cannot assume the company X is gonna obviously buy a

domain name just 'cause I think they should.

And I think that so much of that comes down to

that same kind of opening your mind, like the Grateful Dead

and collaborating and, and experimenting, you know,

no Grateful Dead Show was the same.

Mm-Hmm. I just got back from the sphere. Right.

And two shows for Dead and Company

and, you know, they were two complete different nights.

No, everything they did their Wall of Sound, they reinvented

how you, uh, the audio for, for concerts.

And they pushed the boundaries of everything they did.

And I think it's the same with domain names.

If you kind of experiment

and think about who else might this apply to?

Who else might want this?

Who else wants this makes sense for than the obvious,

you're gonna more likely get your results Mm-Hmm.

And find your answer. And I think, um, that's one.

I think the other thing the Grateful Dead was huge about,

which is, um, do what you love.

Right? Like, you gotta do what you love.

And they loved playing music.

And when they stopped loving

playing music, they take a break.

And when they loved it again, they came back.

And it's imp like anything, you know,

domain names are amazing, an amazing asset

because for, as we all know,

because there's no other asset out there

or other asset class

that provides the return on investment that these do.

They're, they have their challenges, they're illiquid,

they're hard to sell.

Mm-Hmm. You have to be patient.

But when you have a win,

somebody was telling me this morning about a domain they

bought, you know, for $6,000 they just sold

today for a hundred thousand dollars.

Like, you don't, you can't buy a house for $6,000

and sell it for a hundred thousand dollars.

Right. Or you can't buy a house for 6 million

and sell it for, you know, 180 million.

Right. It doesn't work.

So, um, so much of that

plays into this kind of open-mindedness, experimentation,

collaboration, because while today Grateful Dead,

we're breaking all these frontiers.

You know, domains have always been breaking

frontiers. Always. Right.

I can remember when I started out, uh, talking about

that return on investment and how incredible it can be.

Uh, info had just come out,

the first new tail Ds at the time, I didn't,

uh, register many of those.

But when I picked up a two word when Jobs online.info,

and I, I think I paid $10 for it.

And a few months later, um, through,

I can't remember which sales platform it was, I got an email

that said it, uh, had sold, I, I think I,

it was whatever I asked, it was like $12,500

and I'd spent 10 on it.

And the money didn't like come through right away.

I said, I knew that was fake.

And I'm at, I mean, two or three weeks passed

and then one day I got the email that money's arrived.

I have to have to wire it or something.

And so, I mean, I haven't had a

ton of those, most people haven't.

But I think everyone who's been in it 20 years have had, uh,

on some scale or another done that.

And to me that's a great appeal.

It's that the barrier to entry

and this business is so low,

you could start with a hundred bucks.

Remember Merlin Kaufman, a lot of people know his story

as a teenager when I met him.

And Merlin parlayed that into a fantastic.com portfolio.

He would actually call people

who he saw their names were expiring and say, I see.

And he has such a great personality, he would call

and say, I see you're gonna let

that go if you're not gonna use it, would you just,

would you mind transferring it to me man there?

And he would get some names that way.

That's not so easy to do that anymore.

No, no more. But get,

but getting back on days are long gone. Right.

But getting back on track, I think the collaboration point

Is little and like Mike Mann did it with drops, right?

I mean, he did the same thing. Oh yeah.

He just spent his and

Frank Schilling even too, he was story,

he clawed himself in his basement

and said his hair had grown like halfway down the shoulders.

'cause he just like obsessively in there getting drops.

And so that was a big, big deal too.

I think the word obsessive is key, right, Mike? Yeah.

I mean, I know, you know, Mike didn't leave his house for,

you know, three years right.

Up at all hours at a night waiting for the drops

and Frank didn't cut his hair.

And Yeah. You know, no matter what you do Right.

It requires, you know, you have

to love it to be willing to do that.

Right. But you also have to collaborate

and love the, your people and audience around you.

I thought it was such an important point

because I remember in those days, all the major artists, uh,

because technology had come along

where people could go into a concert and record it.

They were doing, eh, all expending so much energy

and time stamping out the bootlegs.

But I had record stores back in those days.

Ah, and you could walk in any independent record store

and there were bootlegs everywhere.

Sure. And they sell that wasn't, weren't police very well.

So the dad just flipped that on. Yeah.

The, the had dead just flipped that on its head.

They said, we don't care. Go fans. Record it.

And I think that's one thing I would say about them,

of all the great bands that came along, the loyalty factor,

um, that they have was like off the charts.

No question. Their fans were nuts. And why?

Because they were that generous with the music,

Which is why they're about to generate $250 million

of revenue from a residency at the sphere for three months

of selling out every four nights a week. Right.

I remember in this business even, even

Years later. Yeah.

It's insane. And in this business, you'll recall probably,

you might have heard Monty say it, Monte Koba in 2005,

his his thing was always, uh, coopetition

that you, you compete.

But that we can all move further if we find ways

also to cooperate.

And that has kind of resonated with me that, you know,

where there's a big enough pie for everyone

and their ways to help each other and further

and bring the entire industry up,

newcomers, people who have been around.

Right. And I think that's why we've gotten

to the point we're at today.

And I agree. And I think that, you know,

when I first started outta college, I worked on Wall Street,

which we'll talk about a little bit.

Yeah. Because that's the other kind of

where my philosophy came from.

But, um, the reason I took that job was

'cause I was talking to a friend

who was a very successful Wall Street stockbroker.

Mm-Hmm. One of the best and family friend.

And he was like, what is this gonna be like?

You know, I was, I had no idea what I wanted to do.

I had no idea. But this was the

opportunity to knock at the time.

And, and he said the best thing about Wall Street

or the stock market is every day is a new day.

Yeah. Like, you may have a stock that's done nothing

and then you come in the next morning

and the company's been bought out

and the stock's up 30 points or down or, you know.

Right. And it's interesting

'cause you just said with domains

and your email example you gave about the

job online job, right.

Jobs online job. Yeah.

Um, we all had this, I'm sure a lot of us have, you know,

there's nothing better than you wake up on a day

and you open up your inbox

and someone wants to pay $3.5 million for, you know,

your domain and

or whatever the price is, whatever tier you're playing in.

And that you just wake up and you, that happens.

That happens because you get lucky.

That happens 'cause you bought a smart domain that happens

'cause you've worked your butt off to get

that email to come eventually.

But every day you wake up and every day is that opportunity.

Every day is a new day. Right.

Every day brings that ho that promise. Right.

Well, the grateful Dead philosophy that you brought out.

Do what you love. That's always been the

philosophy of my entire life.

And I've, I've had three separate careers

and every one was based on doing something.

I loved that. Regardless I didn't,

money was not a consideration.

And for me, I don't know what, you know,

I announced some from you 'cause

I know your, your life story.

For me, my dad was a blue collar worker, brilliant guy.

But he didn't have much formal education. Mm-Hmm.

So when I was young, he would come home, um, from work

and he had all these great ideas,

even for businesses and things.

But he had a family to take care of.

And he would say that, I can't wait till I retire.

And this is when he is probably in his late thirties.

So I can do what I wanna do.

And it kind of disturbed me

because here's this guy, I mean, he's got some great ideas.

He's smart as a whip and he can't do what he wants to do

because in this case, he had a, a family.

And we put that, we don't, all

of us would put that first, no question.

But I had the opportunity starting from there.

Well, I don't know what I'm gonna do,

but whatever I do, I'm just gonna love it.

And I fell into broadcasting early on. 'cause I love music.

So I became a radio dj.

After a couple years of that, I find television, you,

you did could do better there.

Moved to television, did that 20 years.

And then I loved music.

After I left tv, I went back to music

and opened a chain of record stores.

But all of this and,

and those record stores eventually closed.

The internet wiped us all out.

But every day, even when, when it was up, when I was failing

with the, the music stores, I was going to work every day,

man, I loved you.

Love music, music for people. And I got to the mains.

And really that was the best thing of all, all time to me.

And it was, it's an illustration of when one door closes,

another one opens, what, when,

when all the stores had to be closed.

You look at that and go, man, that's, that's, you know,

it's just like I get, I

wiped out and now what am I gonna do?

And you found them. Then I start looking around the,

the only thing left of that enterprises

of any value was the domain name,

which was music paradise.com, which is what had, I had a,

did worldwide mail order from that.

So I said, whatever I do, it's gotta be the internet.

I stumble into domains

and I go, these guys can own the right

to a word on the internet.

Think of the power that that has.

And I just like was all in immediately,

I said, what could be better than that?

Every day you get up and you're searching for other words

that have value to them.

And your whole life kind of expands

because the more you know about more things,

the better you're going to be as a domainer if you have

interests and knowledge and various fields.

Even my thing's always been know a little bit about a lot

of things, uh, not that much in depth and very many things,

but it's enough that, you know,

you know, this would be a good thing.

This would be a good thing. I agree.

So, but so you now you've con you converted me in the course

of our interviews we've done.

Now I see the, your an analogy completely on that.

And I don't want to go into what we're gonna do with Drew

and Larry 'cause that's gonna be, you know Right.

Very different than Drew and this talk

than Drew and Ron's talk.

But, um, you know, at Hilco we handle, not me as much,

but one of our businesses is the leading dispo,

this disposition company for bankrupt and distressed assets.

And what you almost always see is at the end of one

of these distressed companies, the domain name is

by far the most valuable thing left Steve. That's right.

Well, let's go ahead and talk now about Wall Street.

You, when you got outta Cornell University, you,

you still weren't quite sure what you're gonna do.

You mentioned that someone gave you a typical,

a lot going on, on Wall Street.

You wound up being in a situation

where you could learn from Michael Milken, who was a,

a billionaire financier in the 1980s.

He had a sad ending later in years down the line. Well,

It wasn't an ending. It was actually a beginning.

Okay. Well, you, you can clarify that

'cause you know the story much better than I do.

But the 0.1, the point that the I was gonna make is that

he was a genius in raising money and getting deals done.

Yes. And you, and that's about as much as I know from

what you had told me.

But you learned a lot of the art of deal making Oh.

Course from your years of Michael

Mill. So tell us all about that.

So I don't wanna spend a ton of time on the

background and more about the lessons.

Yeah. But Mike, you know, I was in,

I was accepted into his training program

for 18 months at Drexel Burnham.

I met him for 50 seconds. Oh wow.

Third day he spoke to us for five minutes.

And that was the last time I ever saw him.

I became friends with him many years later.

I I spoke at his conference

and I traveled on his plane, um, to baseball stadiums

for prostate cancer, which I won at an auction.

And be, you know, when you're on a plane with him

and a handful of other people for 6, 5, 4, 6 nights

or days around the clock

and going to baseball stadiums for charity

before wifi was on these private jets, um,

there was a chance to really get to know somebody.

So I didn't really get to know him till later.

But, you know, one of the things that at his, you know, Mike

Drexel went down and, you know, Mike went to jail

for a while for being completely

thrown under the bus, quite frankly.

But he really reinvented the entire financial industry.

And, you know, he's now a multi-billionaire

and one of the most Phil philanthropic people in

The world. I saw his worth today.

It was like today, $7 billion.

And he is a major philanthropist too.

Major, major. I mean, everything he does is

about education and philanthropy.

Yeah. But, you know, Mike did not believe in competition

and he embraced collaboration much like the Grateful Dead.

Hmm. He used to always say,

and you know, this was more years later when I was with him,

not when I was working there,

but he goes, there are infinite deals.

Right. He would always say this, there are infinite deals.

And he goes, I couldn't have done

what I did without the other investment banks.

Right. I, if I'm raising $14 billion to buy Snapple

or $3 billion,

I can't do it without my competitors or my partners.

Um, and he did so many deals

and he always used the thing he said

to us in our training program in the two minutes he did

speak to us is, and I'll never forget it,

how have other people help you write your tickets?

50% of something is worth a hell

of a lot more than a hundred percent of zero.

And it's a philosophy that stuck with me in, in

that industry and in everything I've ever done since.

And, you know, so many of us co do, you know, buy

and sell domains together, whether as investors, brokers,

advisors, you know, there's a buy side, a sell sider.

We, you know, Larry and I have obviously collaborated on

home.com, which was, you know, 15 million plus

and last said, I could say it and, and chat.com.

Right. And, you know, we obviously shared in the upside of

that, instead of keeping a hundred percent of it,

but without Larry, there wouldn't,

or, you know, without me

for Larry, there wouldn't have been a deal.

So I'm a huge believer in what I learned from Michael.

And you know, what I always say about domain names is

at least, you know, I play in the, you know,

obviously the one word.com world.

But this 400,

and I believe this is an accurate number,

477,000 words in the Webster's dictionary.

Okay. And some recycle,

and then some when you start combining words, two words.

Mm-Hmm. Right. That number multiplies.

So there's enough words, enough domains, right.

You know, sure. Might I lose a domain to somebody

or get one from someone else?

But at the end of the day, you know,

whether it's an investor or advisor, uh,

but at the end of the day, there are so many words

and so many domains and you know, I'm about

to buy one right now

that I will talk about next week, hopefully when it's closed.

But that's a recycle a deal we brokered two

years ago and now we're buying it.

Wow. So these things and,

and I'm representing beer.com for my friend DeMar right now.

You know, that was my first domain

that I sold is Ron said in 98.

So there's plenty out there.

And, you know, there's an amazing group

of people in this industry to collaborate with

and who can help you get deals done.

Maybe, you know, I don't know somebody, and Drew does,

or Jen does, or Larry does.

And, and I'd rather make 50% of my,

from a financial standpoint, I'd rather make 50% of

that than struggle for zero.

Right. So that was a big Mike Milken thing.

He was, he goes, I never could have got there otherwise.

Right. And, you know,

number one takeaway from me on that. Great.

Now we're talking about values.

This, this is another thing I wanted to talk with you about,

because people are so fascinated

with the price tags when they come out on these high-end

domains because it's iPod.

Oh, it's not just in our industry,

but those are the things mainstream, um, media picks up,

you know, and you'll see them in the New York Times walking

this, this domain sold for this or that.

But I know it's, the reporting

of domain sales has always been kind

of a point of frustration.

Not just for you, but pretty much for every high, high-end,

uh, domain broker

because it's a double-edged, uh, edged sword.

We all want to know as much as possible.

And, um, a lot of it, uh, I'll go back to

what Dion Journal does.

In 2003, we started collecting as many

publicly reported sales as we could.

But what I, my reason for that was

to have an educational tool.

I knew from the start

that we were never gonna get more than a tiny percentage

of all the sales that happened,

particularly the higher end sales,

which almost always under NDA.

But what I wanted to do was get as many examples as possible

of a specific name, what the exact cash price.

And so that people could look at these

and get a better sense of, okay, this name is going for this

and this name for that.

Now that's two things. It gives you a little bit more

understanding of valuation.

'cause it's a very difficult thing

to grasp when you're coming in.

What makes one more than what's another.

But for you, you've, you've,

you're doing these deals up here

and you're seeing the highest reported sale is down here.

So understandably you're thinking this is,

that doesn't really reflect on

how valuable these assets can be.

So from your standpoint, um, interested in Viewpoint,

because some of your highest ones did come out not from you.

'cause you a very big believer in confidentiality.

You can take a guy like George Kos

who's a financial analyst.

He'll just wait for company quarterly SEC reports

to come out and he'll find the price

of a domain asset that was sold in there.

So some of yours have come out like that over the years.

So give us just your thoughts on valuations

and, um, that tension between, uh, private and publicly

Reported sales. This, this sounds hypocritical

obviously on the light

of the last month Yeah.

With the two deals coming out.

But I am a huge lifelong believer in protecting pricing,

whether you're investing, buying, selling, um,

in NDAs in confidentiality around transaction and price.

And the reason for that is

because, first of all, I think it's b******t that you need

to re, you need reported sales to

show others what the value of a domain is.

And we can talk a little more about that.

But you know, if you're good at this,

then you don't need a point to those other sales.

You can overcome that.

Um, it's actually, I think the

opposite effect most of the time.

90%. I mean, look, 90% of mergers

and acquisition transactions, right?

Companies being acquired are under, you know,

you see the undisclosed price in the press release, right?

Private equity mo almost every private equity deal.

Only when it's two public companies

or a big public company buying a private company

that you see it reported.

And that doesn't change the valuations the private equity

guys are getting when they're buying

or selling, uh, domains.

So I think, or I'm sorry, companies.

So here's the problem, right?

If you report it, it anchors

or it boxes in the value added domain.

I actually wrote notes about this.

'cause what makes domains so different

and so awesome is the exactly the fact

that there are no pricing right parameters.

There is no, it is still the wild,

wild west as we've been saying forever.

It's really the buyer's imagination, right? Mm-Hmm.

The imagination of the buyer.

What is the value to them if they push it to the limit

or it is the catalyst for their company

or the catalyst for their dream.

Think about this, right?

You know, you have a buyer like dmh buying chat.com

and for whatever reason he thinks he

can take this domain name.

In this case he resold it

to a company he was an investor in.

So he believed it would be a catalyst for them.

But there is no price.

It's what makes domains so unique to any other asset.

The lack of any comparables allows record

deal deals to get done.

It's really what will the market bear? Mm-Hmm. Right.

If you're willing to hold out

and there's a buyer who has a dream who ha has the money,

maybe they pay 15, maybe they pay 17, maybe they pay three.

But, um, you know, with that said, you know,

with my two deals that have come out, gold dog comment,

eight and a half million because George found it.

Yeah. Right. Which is what George does.

Um, and it's funny

'cause I asked my buyer, amark precious metals,

are you gonna have to just report this in a 10 Q filing?

And they didn't think so,

but then they ultimately did

that deem it was material enough

to report and it got came out.

And then chat.com came out.

'cause Dharmesh was on a podcast

and he slipped, you know, he got caught, you know, know,

he got asked a, a trap question about a podcaster and,

and he, you know, he and he had actually came out

and clarified what he paid for.

You can't trust media people. Yeah.

And, you know, um, even with, you know,

even those deals, right?

I mean, I think they sit, I think gold sits

atop the 2024 Yeah.

And chat atop the 23 and two

and two at the top 10 all time and whatnot.

Even those deals anchor in a almost, I mean, they're great

to have that to point to.

It's great to point to those numbers. Yeah.

I'm not gonna say it's not, and I'm not gonna say it isn't

been helpful for us, but it still anchors you.

You know, I was in a conversation in March,

so we sold a domain at Hilco in March

that we can't talk about till September when the domain

transfers to large public companies.

Massive deal is bigger than these. Wow.

And I, you know, one of the, the buyer was like, Hey,

why should I pay more than that chat.com deal?

Right? They anchored themselves around

that publicly reported number.

And if you see, um,

we did a three letter deal a few weeks ago,

you know, a seven figure deal.

And I saw today, you know,

CDO reported a hundred thousand dollars three letter deal.

Well, now I'm battling my seven figure buyer to say, well,

I see the top six of the top sales

of the year on DN journal.

I love what Ron does, but I've always Yeah,

sure matter back and forth with him about this.

Because how many times if you're in this business,

do you have to answer to that?

Well, I don't want, you know, this would be epic.

This will be one of the largest domain sales

of all time or of the year.

If I buy this, why should I pay that? Mm-Hmm.

And the answer is, well, it's not,

and you have to now tell them

and reverse engineer this, that it's,

that's just a small sampling

list and you have to explain it.

So it does cut both ways. Right?

And what I think I've always accepted is just like merger,

I compare this to the private equity merger

and acquisition world that pri undisclosed prices

are healthy and they're good.

And if you understand that a domain name is usually bought

for at a large price by someone who really wants it

and really knows why they want it

and understands it's value to them, then, you know,

there was always a a price zone.

They're not gonna pay even an Amazon or Microsoft

or Google has got a ceiling Mm-Hmm.

Where they say, you know what?

Enough's enough, you're not gonna take advantage of me.

But you get anchored

by these reported seals even on our own right.

And I was anchored by my own chat.com deal in

March and how to overcome that.

Yeah. You know, because people will latch onto whatever they

can latch onto, right.

To get a better deal at the end of the day.

So I think that that's, you know,

these coming out do establish, you know,

possibilities for the dreamer.

But again, anchoring is never good. Yeah.

This isn't your house, right.

Where, you know, there's a square footage, there's three

or four five bedrooms, there's two bathrooms

or three bathrooms, there's three and a half bathrooms

and the house are three doors, doors down sold for this

and the house two doors down sold for that.

This is still what the market bears

and that's what makes it so amazing. Yeah.

And your point on comparables is totally accurate

because the beauty of domains is

that they are truly unique asset.

There is only one home.com. There is only one chat.com.

So it's, it's, it's a market of one thing

and it's almost like a piece of artwork.

And so you could see a piece of artwork go

for $5 million at Christie's

to one buyer if the right person's

in the room could go for 50.

Sometimes you see this all the time in public, even

Art is anchored by the artist.

Yeah. Well yeah. That way. Right?

So unlike a domain, so, you know, a Van Gogh is a Van Gogh,

uh, Chen, you know, I mean, you know, there,

there are parameters around what a Van Gogh goes

for out there based on what the market pays for it.

And they're, you know, very high end obviously, but,

and they're very rare, but they're still anchored by

that value of that artist.

Whereas the domain really is anchored by what the dream

or the vision or the perceived value is for the buyer.

Right. How much they want it, how badly they

Need it. That's one reason

that I never been a big fan of appraisals.

People have tried to do them, but

because of that very reason how it is hard

to appraise something because as you said, who is the buyer?

How deep are their pockets? How badly do they need it?

This, there's all these

variables you don't know about the seller.

Do they need money right now?

'cause they may sell it for, if they need money a month from

now, they may sell it for half what they want that day.

So, um, again, those are numbers that are fun

to look at sometimes, but,

but you, uh, personally, I've never put a great deal

of stock on people try to do it,

but I just don't see how you can do it very

Accurately. Yeah. And I get asked, you know,

HIL Hilco,

like we have a company Hilco valuation services that is, uh,

you know, a hundred person, multi multimillion

dollar valuation company.

And so I've been asked to do appraisals

and I know, you know, I know Drew does appraisals.

Mike Mann has an appraisal system that he's, you know,

trying to use and he does by hand with people.

But I agree with you.

I, you know, to me, I try to stay away from that

because I don't know what the value, I mean, you have to, I,

I view it as I need to overcome why there is no appraisal

with someone I'm trying to do a deal with versus try

to appraise it and put this,

anchor it and put it into a box.

Yeah. There's still always a zone of where, uh,

you know, I call it the zpa Right.

Zone of possible agreement.

I write about this all the time, right.

Where a deal can get done between this and that.

But you don't want to anchor yourself. Right.

And, you know, to some degree it's what,

you know, what are you willing to take?

What are you, what's a buyer willing to pay?

How, what's your liquidity needs?

But at the end of the day, the big deals get done,

in my opinion, in this space

because it's mysterious.

Yeah. Yeah. And similarly, Ron, right?

I mean total, you know, you see total domain sales, right?

I mean, the market as a whole, you know, the volume of

how many of these assets trade,

and obviously GoDaddy is the biggest player in that,

you know, probably Mm-Hmm.

In that space. And they do, I think, you know,

in their public filings, they report domain sales

and, you know, some

of the escrow services report their volume of transactions.

And, um, a I I'm on the board

and a shareholder at Adam, right.

Adam reports, I mean, everyone tries to kind

of put a number on total sales

of domain names as a market value.

And even that to me gets tricky

because these undisclosed deals, right?

I mean, we've done, you know, you know, it's been an

positive sign, I hope for the market.

You know, we've, we've, it's all May, it's June,

what, six June 6th.

And we've done almost, you know,

we're pushing $50 million in domain sales

and this year, this calendar year, and

Which were the highest price domains

in their names in that group. I did that podcast.

You're an old media guy, rod, find

that podcaster. It didn't work.

I knew I didn't do that. It worth a try by

by point being like, none of those are at places

that will ever report it.

Yeah. None of those transactions were done.

You know, the biggest one was honestly done, believe it

or not, without escrow buyer,

two massive large public companies, the buyer

and the seller trust each other contractually.

And the payments are being done direct.

So, um, I think it's reported sales industry volume.

You have to be careful about, um, how that hurts us

as we try to grow this industry

and make it more straight and mainstream.

And when Larry and Drew

and I talk today, you know what I, to make this different,

'cause Drew has another chat with Ron

that will be awesome at two 40.

I think that I will certainly be at, uh, we're trying

to keep that next session about, you know,

different from these and

Oh, drew and I are gonna be, we we're way different.

We gotta, they definitely don't wanna miss it.

Um, but I think, you know, one of the things there is,

you know, how do we, how do we get the constant question,

how do you get CEOs

and founders out there in the world, investors, VCs,

private equity, family offices, how do you get them

to truly understand how important domain names are?

Mm-Hmm. And that has always been the Holy Grail challenge.

And it, it's gotten, it's getting better. Yeah.

But it's so far from where it should

Be. And one last

point on the valuations that,

and I don't think I've ever brought this up with people,

but just to show you how piecemeal it is, where the,

that the information comes from

and why it is such a small section of it, what we get.

We get obviously get some private buyers and sellers,

and they'll have them send me documentation

from the financial service that the money changed hands

because I won't do payment deals

and money has to have been paid.

But, um, you've only got, you have a handful of platforms.

CDO does a regular list of theirs. Um, snap names and name.

Jet does a regular list.

GoDaddy used to put out only a top 20 list.

And now they don't do that because they've tried to keep all

that data in-house to use for their own appraisal system.

Escrow you mentioned does total dollar, dollar volume.

My friend, uh, Jeff Gabriel,

when he was at Unit Registry used to give me, um, a block.

There were times he actually sent me a, a big list,

a massive, massive list of sales,

but mostly gimme a big block number when the days

that he was at uni.

So it's this, it's, it's like, uh, just a weird mixture

of odds and the ends basically to get, get this, this,

this tool of the charts that you can learn from.

But it is such an infinite infinitesimal part

of everything that we're seeing.

And look, we all like to pat ourselves in the back.

I'm not gonna sit here and say, I don't love

that the chat number came out and that was our deal.

I mean, come on. We're like, we have egos, we have,

you know, reputations and it helps,

but I don't understand that it's head shaking to be some

of the companies you just mentioned, their desire

and their want, their, they're going out of their way

to report what I think are s****y sales.

Hmm. Like crappy numbers for a domain

that only hurt all of us.

Hmm. Like, why are you doing that?

Like, you sold the three letter domain

for a hundred thousand dollars.

Like, who do you think that's helping? Yeah.

So what, what do you Think it should have been?

A 500,000 or a million or 700,000?

So I, I think it's really,

and look, I've said this to Ron, who you,

as everyone knows I love, you know, even with his list,

you know, at times it's really been hard for me

to battle that.

Right? Yeah. Uh, even, even now sitting where we sit in it.

Yeah. What are, what do you think would be better ways

that that could be conveyed?

Or are there better ways that you,

because again, you have to take the, walk them through

what we just walked through.

I think that if more people realize

that it hurt versus helped

and embraced the fact that undisclosed is not a bad word.

Mm. Okay. Again, look at private equity is a great example.

No one makes more money than the PE guys. Yeah.

Nobody and 90% of their deals are not disclosed.

They bought for an undisclosed, they sold

for an undisclosed, some of those leak out,

they've made their money, they probably don't care.

But, and there are different metrics

around private equity deals, right.

Because those are based on multiples within industries and,

but like, certain parameters much more than domains.

But, you know, if you don't, it, I,

I just feel like no matter what the number is,

it's causing an anchoring.

And because it's such, no matter

how many things you announced

or report, it's still a small piece, a minor,

minor piece of the overall puzzle.

And our industry's not gonna change

because big companies, VCs, buyers are not going to want,

you know, it was, as Ron knows, right?

I said this to him. I mean, gold Chad came out

because Dharmesh slipped up.

Gold came out because George did his job.

And that does happen, you know, happened to be two

of ours in like random 30 day period.

I don't think I had a disclosed deal

for 50 years before that.

Mm-Hmm. And I like it that way. Yeah.

'cause it helps me do bigger deals.

Yep. I see our times winding down a little bit.

So I wanna move to a couple points.

You mentioned being obsessive about domains,

which I think almost all of us are really,

and that you can get very good at it that way.

But I know there are some other things in your life

that you're just as, as obsessive about

as the Grateful Dead end domains.

You're a big sports better. We're both big sports fans.

We are. We both like Tom Brady.

Now, I, when he was with the Patriots, when he was

with the Patriots, I, I didn't care for him,

but when we got him in Tampa, I said, Hey,

that guy, he, I love that

Guy. He's done us both. Well,

I

Love that guy. Yeah.

Next Wednesday I'll be going to his celebration in,

in, uh, Gillette Stadium.

No kidding. Retirement ceremony. Allegedly.

And then I have to ask you about, when I grew up,

my hero was Mickey Mantle from the Yankees.

And every, there was an argument in those days

growing up, who is better?

Mickey or Willie Mays or Ted Williams,

and I already know what you're gonna say, Ted Williams,

because you're from, and I met both Mickey and Ted

and interviewed both of them a number of times. And

That's the first time I haven't felt old.

Yeah, no, really.

People saying, I haven't seen those guys say,

What is this? Is this like

back in the 1890s when, uh, yeah, no, that,

that's, that those are heroes in, see,

but you, you, you have to say Ted Williams,

I, I say Mickey, right?

I will. Um, of course it was Ted Williams.

Uh, but there were, and of course it was Tom Brady.

Uh, I will say there is amazing parallel,

one amazing parallel between domains and sports betting

and daily fantasy, which I'm, you know,

Yeah. That's the

Obsession. Yeah. Which I'm

obsessed with. Right.

And you know, there, the daily fantasy community lives

on x on Twitter.

Um, it's an amazing group of people.

And if you've been to a daily fantasy of live event,

like I've been to a couple live DraftKings live finals

where you have to, you know, you're competing

for $2 million, first price prize

with 200 people in a room for a day.

You know, you look and you, you wonder who these people are.

And you look around and there's 200 people in

that room competing for this, who play daily fantasy,

a addictively or religiously or professionally.

And they're amazing people from amazing backgrounds.

And they're there with their families and their wives

and their business partners and,

and they live in social media

and they're an amazingly small, tight-knit community

of an early adapter, early adapters,

and so are domains, right?

Mm-Hmm. It's the exact same thing.

Everyone in this space is similarly diverse

and entrepreneur.

I think I wrote it, entrepreneurs, billionaires, you know,

creative people, early adapters, hackers,

tech programmers, insane people.

But, but we run the gamut.

But it's a amazing tight-knit community living in social

media groups and discord groups

and, um, connected in, you know, through the means

that we run our business

and the internet operates, which is things like that.

And the daily fantasy is almost the exact same thing

early, earlier, right?

Mm-Hmm. Domains have been around since it's say, you know,

whatever, nineties, early nineties.

Mm-Hmm. Um, actually we're representing a domain right now,

which is like amazing id.com Oh wow.

That the guy who owns it hand registered in a 1991.

I'm sitting here saying like, I've, I was late

to the game in 96.

Yeah. Very late compared to some of the people we all work

with and, or some people here I'm sure.

But 91, that was a first for me.

Like I had never heard of 91. Yeah.

And, you know, but we've been

around since the mid nineties daily Fantasy's been legal,

you know, since Call of 2013, I think.

And sports betting really since 2020 is a kind

of becoming more mainstream.

So we're in the earliest of innings of that industry

as well, and how that's evolving.

And it's, you know, not the similar in the respect

that it's the, and by the way,

it's an amazing industry to buy domains.

Yeah. Right. I mean, what's hap you know, um,

we sold football.com

to a offshore sports betting company a couple years ago.

Right. I mean, the sports betting industry is an amazing

place to eventually be, uh, demand,

demand market for domain names. Yeah.

Are we about, uh, outta time here?

I, I wish we weren't Andrew,

because man, we have

so much fun when we get together and talk,

Continue you offline over The years.

I had some more. This whole book is all questions, man.

But we'll, we'll do it again. Appreciate it. All right.

Great deal. Thank you so much.