Switching Productivity Tools - WHEN and HOW you should do it as a Busy Professional
Summary
TLDRIn this productivity session, Paco and the host discuss the challenges and considerations of switching project management tools within a business. They delve into the 'shiny object syndrome,' where the allure of new tools can lead to frequent changes that may not always be beneficial. The conversation highlights the importance of understanding tool-agnostic workflows and the impact of migrating to a new system, especially for larger teams. They share personal experiences with various tools like Trello, ClickUp, and Asana, emphasizing the need for a clear advantage before making a switch and the potential costs associated with it.
Takeaways
- 📈 Prioritizing tool usage based on business needs and workflows is essential, rather than simply chasing the latest technology.
- 🔄 Switching project management tools can be a complex and costly process, especially for large teams.
- 🤔 It's important to weigh the benefits of a new tool against the potential disruption and training costs.
- 🚀 Established tools with a proven track record can be more reliable for businesses with high task volumes.
- 🛠️ When considering a switch, evaluate how the new tool will integrate with existing workflows and processes.
- 📊 Understanding tool-agnostic workflows is crucial before adopting new tools, as it allows for flexibility and adaptability.
- 🔧 Testing new tools in a controlled environment can help identify potential issues and benefits before full-scale implementation.
- 🔄 Partial migration of tools can be a viable strategy, allowing for a gradual transition without overwhelming the team.
- 💡 The 'shiny object syndrome' can lead to frequent tool changes, which may not always be beneficial for productivity.
- 📈 A pragmatic approach to tool selection and usage, focusing on the core functionalities and performance, is recommended for long-term success.
Q & A
What is the main topic of discussion in this productivity session with Paco?
-The main topic of discussion is about changing project management apps and when it is appropriate to switch tools, considering the effort and cost involved.
What was the situation that triggered the discussion on changing apps?
-The discussion was triggered by a member of the Inner Circle cohort who was犹豫 about migrating his project management tool from Trello to ClickUp.
What are the considerations when deciding to switch project management tools?
-Considerations include the ease of use, understanding of workflows, the potential advantages of the new tool, and the impact on team members who need to onboard to the new system.
Why is it dangerous to stick to the same tools without evolving?
-Sticking to the same tools without evolving can be dangerous as it may lead to falling behind in technology, reduced productivity, and inability to take advantage of new features and improvements that other tools offer.
What was Paco's experience with a project management tool that he used for over 15 years?
-Paco used a project management tool for over 15 years that worked perfectly for his company, despite being an older technology. It had a robust database model and allowed them to handle over 500,000 tasks without performance issues.
What does Paco look for in a new tool when considering a switch?
-Paco looks for a tool that offers a significant advantage, such as easier time tracking using AI, better integration with financial systems, and improved workflows for his team.
How did the company Paco was part of handle the switch from Asana to Trello?
-The company decided to switch from Asana to Trello as the official project management tool. However, after calculating the costs and impacts of the migration, they kept using Asana for certain teams and used Trello in parallel, linking the two when necessary.
What is the IORE framework mentioned in the script?
-The IORE framework is a tool for organizing and understanding different types of applications in a business. It categorizes apps into core applications, satellite applications, and utility apps, helping businesses decide which apps to keep and which can be easily replaced.
What advice does Paco give for trying out a new app?
-Paco advises to first try the app yourself, then share it with someone who has a global vision of the processes within the company. This approach helps in understanding the pros and cons before making a decision to switch or implement the new tool.
What is the 'shiny object syndrome' referred to in the discussion?
-The 'shiny object syndrome' refers to the temptation to switch to a new productivity tool or app as soon as a fancier or seemingly better option appears, often leading to a cycle of constant change without fully utilizing the current tools.
What is the key takeaway from the discussion about changing productivity tools?
-The key takeaway is that changing productivity tools should be a calculated decision based on clear advantages and understanding of the impact on workflows and team performance. It's important to be pragmatic and consider the costs and efforts involved in such a transition.
Outlines
📝 Introduction to Productivity and the Paperless Movement
The video begins with a warm welcome to a productivity session focusing on the paperless movement. The host introduces Paco, the co-founder, and discusses the topic of the month within their Inner Circle cohort, which revolves around changing apps and the considerations involved in switching project management tools. The conversation touches on the dilemma of whether to switch to a new tool even if it appears better, and the challenges of migrating workflows and onboarding team members to new tools.
🛠️ Evaluating the Need to Switch Tools
This paragraph delves into the reasons and strategies for evaluating the need to switch project management tools. The speaker shares personal experiences with various tools like Trello, ClickUp, Asana, and others, highlighting the importance of understanding one's workflow and the tool-agnostic approach. The discussion emphasizes the need to prioritize the business's core needs over the allure of new and shiny tools, and the importance of a gradual and well-thought-out transition when considering a switch.
🚀 Success Stories and Challenges with Project Management Tools
The speaker recounts specific instances where project management tools have been successfully implemented, such as using Asana in a large corporation and the subsequent switch to Trello. The challenges of migrating thousands of tasks and the impact on team performance are discussed. The paragraph also touches on the speaker's own experiences with different tools and the evolution of these tools over time, emphasizing the balance between sticking with a reliable tool and the potential benefits of exploring new options.
🧩 Navigating the Transition Between Tools
This section focuses on the practical aspects of transitioning between tools. The speaker describes the process of testing new tools in a 'playground' mode, the importance of having a core set of features, and the need for a direct comparison between old and new tools. The paragraph also addresses the challenges of managing the transition, especially in large teams, and the potential costs and trade-offs involved in abandoning a reliable tool for a new one.
📈 Final Thoughts on Tool Selection and Evolution
The video concludes with a reflection on the importance of understanding the different types of applications within a business, such as core, satellite, and utility apps, and the implications for tool selection and evolution. The speaker advises on using the iore framework to assess the current tool stack and make informed decisions about when and how to switch tools. The conversation ends with a reminder of the complexities involved in changing tools for a company versus an individual, and the need for a careful and strategic approach.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Productivity
💡Paperless Movement
💡Project Management Tools
💡Workflows
💡Shiny Object Syndrome
💡Migration
💡Tool Agnostic
💡Inner Circle
💡Onboarding
💡Performance
💡Advantage
Highlights
The discussion revolves around the dilemma of when to switch project management tools and the associated costs and efforts.
The paperless movement co-founder shares insights on the challenges of migrating between Trello and ClickUp.
The importance of understanding tool-agnostic workflows is emphasized for smooth transitions between different productivity apps.
The presenter's experience with a 60-person team using an older project management tool highlights the risks of sticking with outdated technology.
The presenter's company has successfully managed over 500,000 tasks using their current project management tool.
The concept of 'shiny object syndrome' is introduced, where the allure of new productivity tools can lead to frequent, potentially disruptive changes.
The presenter advocates for a pragmatic approach to tool adoption, only switching when there is a clear and significant advantage.
The story of how the presenter's team transitioned from using no project management tool to successfully implementing Asana.
The challenges of migrating a large team to a new project management tool, such as the switch from Asana to Trello in a corporate environment.
The presenter's strategy for testing new tools involves a personal trial period followed by a gradual rollout within the team.
The importance of having a solid core set of tools and understanding which tools can be easily replaced or enhanced with 'satellite apps'.
The presenter's experience with an established tool, Intervals, which has been consistently improved over 15 years.
The comparison between Asana and ClickUp, with Asana being likened to Apple in its slow, deliberate feature updates.
The risks associated with betting on younger, less established tools that may require frequent workflow adjustments.
The presenter's advice on using the IORE framework to assess the importance of different apps and tools in a business workflow.
The presenter's cautionary tale about the potential downsides of switching tools, including the opportunity cost and the impact on team productivity.
The value of having a tool that has evolved over time and continues to improve, even if it's not the most 'fancy' or feature-rich option.
The presenter's approach to testing new tools in a 'playground' area to assess their potential impact on the business before full implementation.
Transcripts
all right everybody welcome back to
another productivity like a pro session
here with my dear friend Paco our
co-founder of the paperless movement and
today we will dive into a very
interesting topic as usual paperless
movement your productivity your way what
is it about today Paco well it was about
something that emerged in our cohort the
Inner Circle cohort that we are handling
the this month well every month okay
every month we will have one different
cohort and the point and the topic was
about changing apps one of our members
was hesitating between moving his
project management tool from one to
another I think he was doing quite a few
things in Trello I guess I'm not sure
right now well yeah he was running
everything in Trello actually multiple
businesses and then he started to
implement clickup and migrating and
everything at once and this brought up
the discussion about when should you
actually switch tools over the effort
and the cost that are in evolved and
then when you look at this from a
different perspective maybe you don't
even change it even if the other tool is
better and well we saw there Trello and
clickup and obviously when you hear
these two words then you instantly think
well I'm going for clickup but who is
using Trello anyway today it might be
not the case in many businesses as
Trello is very simplistic and easy to
understand for many people and easier to
handle so many people are used to Trello
or kban boards and and therefore it
might be easier to handle so migrating
not only to a different tool but also
workflows and people onboarding to other
tools this is really the topic that we
want to talk about today when you should
do this but it also applies to your
personal tool usage so when should you
switch any tool overall I mean by the
things that we will discuss today you
will see this from a different
perspective and it also goes along with
the topic shiny object syndrome you you
see a fancy trailer a YouTuber talking
about a new productivity tool and you
say man this is the one and only tool
that I need now and you instantly start
switching and then you well that's what
we want to dive into today yes because
there's a fear and I'm the first about
that fear and it's the sensation of
being behind that you are not taking
advantage of a certain technology or a
tool that you are using or a stick to
the same tools so that you are not
evolving well in my opinion it's quite
dangerous especially when you are
dealing with a lot of users in my case
for instance we are more than 60 people
in one of the companies and for instance
we keep using a project management tool
that I've always said that it works
perfectly it's quite old it was a bet I
made I think over 15 years ago so you
can imagine the technology at that time
and well they have been keep evolving
and if you compare this tool with the
current project managers like aana or
clickup or or linear well if you compare
it with linear man what a difference but
the point is that it works perfectly
okay all the workflows work without any
problem everybody knows what needs to be
done we are able to prioritize we use it
as a communication tool so we don't use
email talking about task related to
projects and the thing is well we are
also registering our recording Sor are
ours that we dedicate to the different
projects and well pretty easy the the
app name
that okay because there's aial it's
quite unknown because in fact the thing
that I love the most about this app it
was the database model behind the tool
because I saw that the different
entities the objects the relationships
between them the links how everything
was pretty well implemented and I think
that the success of any tool we are
seeing like some of the tools like for
instance to do is is leveraging thanks
to have that amazing database model that
allows them to connect anything to
leverage to create new features without
affecting the foundational core and
really fast and this applications for
instance has been well improving little
by little it's something that is not
something fancy it's not something
horrendus okay I have to say that too
but the point is that I will never try
to change it unless I clearly see that
there's a clear Advantage okay without
any hesitation because I have to say
something at the beginning without using
a tool it seems that everything is going
to work pretty well and the moment that
you go really deep into that tool you
see the weaknesses that any other tools
has so beware that's the thing that I
say and the question is now well
obviously the question arises what is
this tool and what is the name and you
said intervals but now is the question
would you recommend it to somebody who
is just starting a new business now I
mean in this case it would be for a
marketing agency right it depends on the
use case for me it's something that it's
a tool really easy to understand so if
you have many uses I do think that it's
a a good bet it's just a matter of
giving it a try and see if it worked but
if you try to compare it with any of
this project management tool the the
current that I have mentioned that you
can find and are the big players like
well even Monday I forgot about Monday
for instance I have to say I have tried
all of them okay I have try Asana and I
currently using clickup I'm currently
using linear I have used Monday in the
past I think I have used most of the big
players talking about well Trello was
something that never worked for me it
was too simple and for me there's a
moment that Canan boards don't work if
you have a high volume of information
and the point is that most of these
tools even intervals you can see the
information in C Bo you can do that in
Monday well in many of the project
management tool you can do it so well
it's a feature that even some of that
are not so board-based I would say they
are currently using it so well why not
for me it's simple it works it's a
company that it's really well
Consolidated because in fact as usually
happens it was a software company okay
who didn't find out the correct project
management tool and then they decided to
create their own tool and well it worked
so well for them that they started to to
sell it and well in fact they've been
doing it I thought and it was one of my
biggest fear in that it was going to
disappear but it never disappear and
they kept running the business and they
kept improving it and they also improve
the onboarding process and well you can
handle many things using that tool but I
could say that it looks like all the
style I could say it works at the end I
am pragmatic and it's a tool that I've
been using it I think that the last year
we handle more than 500,000 tasks so you
can imagine the the volume of this tool
without any problem I mean the database
behind it's really welld developed and
that's why you don't have any
performance issues for instance that's
important when you are talking about big
okay quote 60 people team but well it's
quite quite a white people especially if
you pay the salaries every month and the
point well it's one of the tool and
that's why I cannot move it has to be
something so lifechanging for instance
and really looking forward right now to
an amazing tool to record the hours of
the team much easily using AI using
recommendation using historical data so
people can't record their hours because
of the talking about the profit of each
project each client well a much more
complex tool that it's link to the
financial system and that's why I've
been always looking and in fact right
now I'm trying to look for another tool
but at the moment I haven't changed it
for these big players that I've just
mentioned yeah and Ariel just says how
do you try an app is it not a quite
complex issue and that's exactly what it
is trying an app or especially with the
team and when should you do this so I
would tell a bit of a about my backstory
there when I was part of a team in big
corporate I was advocating always new
tools and improved team performance and
there was a struggle in the beginning
because we instantly implemented new
tools in the team and everybody had to
start to using that but not everybody is
a fan of switching tools and then they
have Daily Business to do and this is
where the first learning I mean we are
talking from more than 10 years ago
there I started to use them myself along
with the exist tools but there what key
is you have to understand the tool
agnostic workflows first and that's what
where iore comes into play when you go
through arel you just joined the Payless
movement well you just joined the
Payless movement membership so welcome
to the party when you go through the
iord Journey now you will get the
understanding of the tool agnostic
Concepts and workflows in productivity
end to end from information collection
and management to also project
management task management and so on to
the action world and this is really key
that's why we are so forcing the things
into the tool agnostic space even though
that we are providing implementation
examples how we Implement these Concepts
and workflows to the tools that we use
ourselves to better explain how they
work in real life but key is to
understand the workflows in your
business in the tools that you're
currently using if you don't have any
workflows or you don't recognize them
this is the moment where you start to
write them out to understand them
because then you can instantly switch to
different tools because the underlaying
workflows will just work in any other
tool you will realize and that's why we
say that you will realize when you go to
Monday assana clickup intervals I don't
care I'm not even scared opening any
other tool up because there will be
always a basic set of features that
every project manager provides and then
you will have the understanding what
features you really need to run your
business and therefore one tool provides
more features in One Direction and
another tool provides features in a
different direction and therefore you
start to understand what is really
helping you so getting back to my
example I was taking over a team was a
team leader myself and they had no
project management tool at all and I was
working in a 300,000 employee company
and there was obviously a lot of
actually human project managers right
they had their tools and we were working
in several projects and I came into this
team and I used aana back then as the
first tool for myself just to collect
projects that my team is working on
because they were firefighters they had
no idea so we had to get some structure
and therefore I was collecting all the
projects that these been working on and
they were working on 150 projects in
parallel with five people globally and
that's where I had them already listed
all in assana and therefore I was able
then to go to the manager and and show
him well these are all the projects we
are working on there are too many now
you see them listed out so we were able
to prioritize the projects that we
really need to focus on so we narrowed
it down to 50 projects and then I
onboarded the team slowly to assana
because this became each project in
assana became a single source of Truth
for this project so we started to
collecting information on this project
and this is where the team then learned
the advantage of having one tool where
they know when they go there they will
find all the information in Need for
this project instead of somebody calling
you about the project and then you start
searching for the information from all
the different sources and uh while this
became so successful that we also got a
different department in the engineering
department and we worked together in the
same tool cross Department wise and then
we rolled out Asana for more than a
thousand people globally all working in
Asana and well we came up to 16,000
tasks handling per month within just
half a year and now we come to the topic
of this podcast we were running this
assana it was very successful the team
performance increased by 40% cross C
Department performance and suddenly the
company decides that Trello becomes the
official project management tool for the
whole company 300,000 employees and we
have to kill aana and actually I was
working in it and I was a business
analyst and it was my job to explain
exactly when we should switch tools and
so I get a request from the management
well you have to kill asan you have to
use Trello now and I just make a simple
calculation how much it would cost to
stop the projects that we are working on
right now to migrate data over 16,000
tasks to the new project to onboard the
thousand people to these new workflows
in Trello because Trello had less
features than aana therefore we were
leveraging a lot more so we had to work
do workarounds so we've been talking
about a million about a million euros
for the migration process itself just to
go to a tool that they say we should use
and therefore this number when they see
costs versus the force that you have to
go over then we stopped it we were able
to keep using Asana on the other hand we
always were forcing the things that we
all using the same tool because it makes
it so much easier to use this so to
overcome this we had to use Trello in
parallel and therefore in Trello
whenever a project manager was in Trello
we were linking out to the relevant
tasks in assana and that's always key so
you're always able to build up systems
in parallel and then have at least the
links to the relevant content in one
Major Tool and that's the same that we
said to our Inner Circle member in this
coaching session where he should slow
down with the migration process as he
was talking about I don't know 160
people something migrating to a new an
API to an AP well there was there was
another there was another in member
trying to migrate from Monday to clickup
that was the apis so he wanted to bring
over dashboards but the one member with
Trello and click up so he partially
migrated and was the right process
migrated just one Department was the
marketing department starting in clickup
and therefore it needs really to be
siloed so they have really their
processes in their Department it's not
affecting the other departments so it's
a big step to really switch tools and it
really needs to have a big advantage to
switch the tools because the moment
where you get excited about oh man when
we are in there in your brain it looks
so fancy everything and it makes all the
sense that you use this new tool but the
moment you go to the new tool this is
where then after one two months you
realize man it's not so much better than
the other one but the opportunity costs
where people weren't able to focus on
tasks not being able to work on new
stuff this migration espe especially
with big teams this is crazy if you just
getting started with your business your
solopreneur I mean this is a lot easier
but even then I was using notion for a
long time then I switched to click up
then I tested all the other things
obviously this was my chob in the side
hustle with the paperless movement
testing out all the project managers in
addition to the ones that already new
this is where I came up with the
playground where the sent box mode where
I just have a closed area where I say
okay I'm testing this tool now but this
is not part of my business I'm just
playing and I'm just pretending that I'm
using it and then you see the friction
points and then you really see if it is
worth migrating or not and even if it is
more effort to run the tools in parallel
it's really worth it because you have a
direct comparison to what you have right
now and what you could have in the other
tool and then it makes sense to really
look into is it worth cost investment to
migrate over all the stuff to the new
tool yes for me the the way to try an
app is well I try it myself that's the
first thing and the moment that I'm more
or less convinced then I have one person
in the company that has a global vision
of the processes because she's in the
middle of everything and then I share it
with her and we theci side okay we see
the pros and cons and the point is that
most of the tools are rejected by us
okay no matter how different they may
seem or how they crucial or that we are
missing something by not using these new
tools because it's really tough it's
really tough when you have to handle
with the people's frustration all the
trade-offs of people wasting their times
people getting angry because they cannot
work comfortable too many things that at
the end at the end and also this shows
that when you have Consolidated
workflows that they have been working
pretty well in a complex system as a
business is you don't need to reinvent a
whe constantly you know it's much better
to stay and bet on good tools that even
you see this is not one of the big
players in the market of project
management but even this tool is
evolving is progressing because I have
to say for during this 15 years it has
evolved okay and and the team with with
them they have been introducing new
features they have been improving they
are constantly well improving the things
so why not having maybe it's not so
fancy or maybe we are lacking some of
the features for instance talking about
Knowledge Management is not a tool at
all okay you cannot compare with those
project management like ca where you can
perfectly combine the bkm area and the
area bkm and BPM bkm and BPM okay I mean
the project management and the knowledge
management related to business but well
it doesn't matter okay behind for be we
have some of the tools like for instance
Google Docs okay and all the power of
Google behind so we just put the link in
that project management and everything
is connected and also we are building a
huge Knowledge Management database based
on on another tool that I always forget
the name strip I think because I'm
always confused with stripe I think it's
strip well it's quite famous and they
are making an amazing job talking about
Knowledge Management for companies and
well we are getting and covering those
gaps but the core element you know the
action the getting things done for the
company especially with that high volume
of data is well preserved we are really
happy people are happy although many of
them complain because they want more
futuristic tools okay but at the end
it's much better for the company to stay
on the things that you know than those
one who may be better at the beginning
but the moment that you start using them
daily and with high volume of data it's
something that sometimes you have
surprises and that's something that I
have well especially about performance
it's something that you never should
take for granted because when you are
dealing with a huge amount of data is
not the same with for instance when
you're in a testing Zone okay with
yourself just one project that you take
as a test and things like that when you
start uploading the things and a lot of
recurring uses for instance too it's not
just a matter of the database model but
also the servers the well too many
technical aspects that when a huge
company is working daily without any
problem changing that a step forward
should be huge okay to justify that move
because the tradeoff and the suffering
of the transition is horrendous
horrendous right now I'm an and this is
being well it's knocking me down for one
year and even three years before that we
were preparing everything well it's a a
mess a mess when you are dealing with
complicated systems the thing is also so
that you bet on intervals makes also
sense with a 15-year established tool
and they keep improving the things they
make probably slow steps because they're
careful not to destroying all the setups
for from their customers if you compare
it to something like clickup that is
fairly young company and now they made a
switch from clickup 2.0 to 3.0 and if
you go to the forums people are really
complaining because all the workflows
need to be Rewritten how to go to the
inbox where they Pro process Sops that
they established already so for clickup
it was the right decision to get to this
next level that was important they had
to do it but if you bet on a young tool
you have to expect these changes right
that's the thing and how crucial this is
so that's why I compared always Asana
and clickup being Asana the apple and
clickup more the Android thing where
Apple also makes very slow changes it's
very small changes but then if they
Implement something it makes sense and
the overall concept of the tool and
that's what you see in aana it is also
of one of the very established tools
since when they launch also more than 10
years or maybe even 15 years ago already
I remember that that was the first one
that we used back then and we wi labeled
it for the big company and they had all
these things as well that you were able
to Wi label this for big companies and
they were targeted towards big companies
so they cannot afford to really make
fancy changes in there there that
interrupts everything or introduces bugs
because as you mentioned imagine that
the project manager stops working for
one week the whole business just stops
working that's the that's really the
issue and where you really have to be
careful with all these fancy new tools
coming out and saying well we are the
next clickup we are better than clickup
and better than notion and so on if you
are solar preneur starting out you can
bet on these things and maybe you don't
have so many tasks but once you as pako
says with 500,000 tasks imagine you go
to a tool that you don't know the future
of and maybe it disappears in one year
from now this is just impossible for the
bigger companies and this is why the
established tools bet on the big
companies and the smaller tools they
really reach out for the entrepreneurs
and so on and try to promote it rather
there yes and it's also it also happens
and it happens to me that when you have
been using a tool for quite a long time
you start to not to pay attention to
certain features you think that they
exist all over the place no matter the
tool and it's the moment that you make
the move when you start well remembering
all those features that meant nothing
for you at that moment when you were
using your current tool and it's now
when you have made the change when you
start saying that it wasn't so bad your
current application and that's something
that it's inherent I could say to human
beings okay that it's the moment that we
lose something the moment that we pay
attention to that no and the moment that
we have it we don't pay any attention at
all so be careful and uh well that
doesn't mean that you don't evolve okay
we are constantly evolving but the pace
for a company is not the same as an
individual because it's impossible okay
because the complexity has nothing to do
and well one thing is well I'm going to
change my task manager for me and
another thing is I'm going to change the
the project management of a whole
company that's totally different and the
approach should be totally different and
that's where the Ia framework comes into
place so for me who join you laying out
your current tool stack on the iore
framework and there you learn the
difference between core applications
satellite applications and utility apps
so the core applications usually are
your project managers the no taking apps
where you have your P Gams in there and
they should be very rarely changed and
satellite apps are just enhancing your
existing core apps and therefore they're
easy to exchange so if this is something
you're interested in and you haven't
done already your IO framework do this
first because then you will very quickly
realize what is really your important
apps in your business that you should
keep running as long as possible and
which one could you replace very easily
with other tools so well I think that
was it about the session everything that
needed to be said res said and if not
then let us know we are happy to follow
up in the next live Q&A so until then
catch you up in the next one okay see
you guys bye-bye
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