Orson Welles - Interview (July 27, 1970)
Summary
TLDRThe script shows a 1971 interview between talk show host Dick Cavett and legendary filmmaker Orson Welles. They discuss Welles' unconventional childhood traveling through Europe, his early successes in theater and film, impressions of historical figures like Hitler and FDR, his military experience during WWII, opinions on violence in American culture, advice on filmmaking, and more. Their quick-witted banter touches on various topics from Welles' work to Cavett's interview style, revealing two intellectual yet humorous personalities.
Takeaways
- 😀 Orson Welles was a child prodigy - called the boy genius, directing on Broadway at age 22
- 😮 Met Hitler as a child but he made no impression at all - had no personality
- 🤔 Doesn't like his films excerpted - always sees things wrong with them that he would change
- 😟 Was drafted repeatedly in WWII despite back problems due to Hearst's vendetta against him
- 🤨 Doesn't think any history can be fully accurate - it's an 'improved version of what happened'
- 😐 Felt closest to and most impressed by George Marshall out of all the famous people he met
- 😉 Used to joke around and mock Harry Cohn who bugged his office at the studio
- 🙂 Recalls fun times performing Shakespeare and even actors wandering into the wrong plays mid-scene
- 🤯 Claims everything good and bad is true about America - too big for generalizations
- 😢 Distressed that violence has always been part of the American story, from stealing land to now
Q & A
What was Orson Welles known as when he was young?
-Orson Welles was known as the 'boy genius' when he was young, similar to Mozart, Keats and Paul Anka.
What did Orson Welles think of Hitler when he met him?
-When Orson Welles met Hitler, he said Hitler made so little impression on him that he can't remember anything about their interaction. Welles said Hitler had no personality whatsoever at the time.
Who does Orson Welles consider the greatest man he ever met?
-Orson Welles considered George Marshall the greatest man and greatest human being he ever met. He admired Marshall's kindness and gentleness with people regardless of their status.
What did Harry Cohn do to help Orson Welles with his musical?
-When Welles was struggling to get his musical "Around the World in 90 Days" on stage, he called Harry Cohn asking for $47,000 and promising to make a film adaptation of a book for Cohn. Cohn sent the money, allowing Welles to open the show.
How many films would Orson Welles grab to save for posterity?
-When asked which films he would save on an ark, Welles cheekily said he would grab "Grand Illusion", "La Règle du jeu", and "Something Else" - avoiding having to definitively pick only a couple films.
What happened with the musical score for Welles' musical?
-The composer for Welles' musical wrote an entire score that was never used. Welles said "not one note of which was ever heard on radio or indeed on the lips of anybody wishing to whistle their way up the aisle out of the theater".
Why was Welles repeatedly drafted during WWII?
-Welles believes he kept getting drafted because Hearst had people on his draft board who wanted to hassle Welles over his film Citizen Kane's portrayal of Hearst.
How did working with Mike Nichols go for Welles?
-When Mike Nichols directed Welles, Nichols quickly sensed that Welles admired and respected him. This put Nichols at ease about working with the legendary filmmaker.
Can an exciting, pornographic film also be a narrative masterpiece?
-Welles argues that a pornographic film, focused on sexual excitement, inherently works against narrative form and masterful storytelling - so while it could be exciting, it could not achieve masterpiece status.
What happened when Welles said he was a Brigadier General at the draft board?
-After claiming he was a Brigadier General at the draft board, the sergeant made Welles pick up cigarette butts naked as punishment, to Welles' embarrassment.
Outlines
🎬 Introduction and Monologue
Dick Cavett opens his show with a lively introduction, acknowledging the enthusiasm of the audience and making light-hearted comments about the pages' difficult job. He humorously mentions a new invention from England, a self-destructing plastic, and makes a joke about its potential uses. Cavett then shifts to a more serious note, expressing excitement about having Orson Welles as his sole guest for the evening, highlighting the uniqueness of the show. He introduces a film clip from 'The Lady from Shanghai,' directed and starred in by Welles, setting the stage for the night's special guest.
🌟 Welles' Early Achievements and Introduction
Cavett continues by praising Orson Welles for his early achievements in film and theater, including directing 'Citizen Kane' and his involvement in numerous Shakespearean roles. He references Welles' impact on the film industry and the high regard in which he's held by peers. Welles is introduced to the audience, leading to a discussion about his experience doing two shows in one day, the nature of live and taped television, and the comedic potential of bleeping out words during broadcasts.
🎭 Welles on Film and Personal Anecdotes
Orson Welles discusses his discomfort with watching his own films, specifically criticizing the soundtrack of a particular scene. He shares amusing stories about Hollywood studio head Harry Cohn, including finding a microphone Cohn had hidden in his office. Welles also narrates a desperate financial situation resolved by Cohn's unexpected generosity, further humanizing the often vilified studio mogul and highlighting the complexities of their relationship.
📖 Welles Reflects on Biography and Childhood
Welles talks about the prospect of writing his biography, preferring to share memories and anecdotes rather than a detailed account of his life. He shares fascinating insights into his early travels in Europe and his childhood, emphasizing his independence and the unique experiences that shaped him. Welles recounts his early exposure to influential and historical figures, contributing to his rich and varied life.
🌍 Welles' Encounters with Historical Figures
Welles recounts his experiences with notable figures, including a non-encounter with Hitler that highlights the future dictator's insignificance at the time. He also mentions his relationships with Roosevelt and Churchill, sharing personal anecdotes that reveal the characters of these historical giants. Welles' storytelling provides a vivid glimpse into the interactions between major 20th-century personalities.
👥 Welles on Fame, Identity, and Impressions
Welles discusses the peculiar nature of fame and how it affects personal interactions. He expresses his dislike for being treated differently due to his celebrity status, preferring genuine conversation over altered behavior. The dialogue shifts to Welles' criticisms of a film scene, emphasizing his perfectionist nature and his desire to remember his works as better than they might have been.
🏆 Welles on the Greatest Figures He's Met
Orson Welles reflects on the most impressive individuals he's encountered, naming George Marshall as the greatest human being and leader he's met. He shares a touching story about Marshall's kindness, contrasting it with other public figures' inability to connect on a personal level. Welles' admiration for Marshall's character and humility shines through, offering a rare glimpse into the qualities Welles values most.
🎥 Cavett and Welles Exchange Roles
In a humorous twist, Orson Welles and Dick Cavett reverse roles, with Welles questioning Cavett about his career and experiences. This segment lightens the mood, showcasing their rapport and Welles' wit. Despite Cavett's attempts to maintain some personal mystique, Welles playfully probes, highlighting the camaraderie between the host and his distinguished guest.
🤔 Welles on Film and Personal Preferences
Welles shares his views on the possibility of creating a pornographic masterpiece, distinguishing between a work that's purely stimulating and a true cinematic masterpiece. He also humorously addresses a hypothetical scenario of choosing films to save for posterity, showcasing his deep appreciation for cinema and its artistry. The conversation reveals Welles' critical thinking and his humorous, yet insightful, perspective on film and creativity.
📽 Final Thoughts and Anecdotes
The segment concludes with Welles recounting a hilarious and humbling wartime experience related to his honorary military rank. He reflects on the absurdity and irony of the situation, providing a poignant commentary on fame, identity, and the randomness of life's experiences. This closing story encapsulates the essence of Welles' storytelling prowess, blending humor with deep reflections on human nature and society.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡comedian
💡Childhood
💡theater
💡movies
💡innovator
💡controversy
💡genius
💡politicians
💡radio
💡magic
Highlights
Welles was called the boy genius in his early career, like Mozart, Keats and Paul Anka.
Welles says he met Hitler when he was a child but Hitler made no impression on him at all.
Welles lived in Peking as a child and describes the luxurious lifestyle his family had there.
Welles traveled alone in Europe from a very young age, which he found terribly romantic.
Welles says Marshall was the greatest human being who was also a great man that he ever met.
Welles discusses his friendship with Winston Churchill and anecdotes about their meetings.
Welles says everything people say about America, good or bad, is true because it's so big and diverse.
Welles tells a story about being drafted repeatedly in WWII despite bad health due to Hearst's influence.
When asked about other late night hosts, Cavett says he feels uncomfortable since they're in competition.
Welles believes you can make an exciting, arousing pornographic film, but not a pornographic masterpiece.
Welles names Grand Illusion and Citizen Kane as the two films he'd save if limited to a few on the ark.
Cavett describes Welles as a legend, pioneer and hero to people in the business.
The famous hall of mirrors scene from The Lady From Shanghai film clip.
Welles on his friendship with Cornelia Lunt, a fascinating Civil War hostess in her 90s.
Welles tells an amusing story about falsely claiming to be a brigadier general when drafted.
Transcripts
but Dick Cavett show with special guests
Orson Welles ladies and gentlemen Dick
Cavett
[Music]
[Applause]
[Music]
[Applause]
[Music]
what a great audience that sign outside
beautiful girls dancing is working I
think very nice to see you and please be
nice to our pages would you they they
have a hard job it's not easy saying sit
down stupid to 500 people ever know very
nice to see how you been reading about
that thing that they are I've invented
in England that plastic self-destructive
both substance that they can make things
out of it will actually destroy itself
after a time which is very important
it's gonna make bottles and cans and
Bobbie Rosengarten records out of it and
it's really good joke of course they
were the it destroys itself in the
sunlight that's the interesting thing
can you imagine guys saying I have a
special swimming suit I made for you my
dear I picture myself that they've made
a tray of it and you're sitting at a
barbecue with a very hot tray full of
food and you suddenly have an almost
religious experience anyway you're gonna
listen I don't want to I could convulse
you with the monologue tonight but I
don't want it I don't want to waste time
we we have only one guest tonight as you
may know and ABC is very glad about that
they figured it somewhere there is a
foot sore tired family with no place to
sit down and they have rented out my
extra chairs tonight so we only have our
one guest you understand and I guess you
know who the guest is because we have
one guest you do not need to conserve
your laughter however it's a gentleman
who has many well he started first many
years ago he was called the boy genius
so the way that Mozart and Keats and
Paul Anka have been and I think that
instead of the monologue since this is a
very special show and I know that you
came many of you just to see him tonight
I would like to open if we can with a
piece of film that we found and those
are you film students know this movie
very well it's the end of the lady from
Shanghai and it's one of the must be one
of most difficult things to to film you
really don't need to know the plot this
is toward the end and it is when the
hero is in a fun
house and it's an unforgettable thing if
you ever saw this piece of film at an
impressionable age you can never forget
it and here's that clip from lady from
Shanghai made by our guest and he's in
it let's take a look at that I know I'd
find you two together
if I hadn't Elsa I might have gone on
playing it your way you didn't know that
but you did plan for you to follow thank
you
I presume you think that if you murder
me here your sailor friend will get the
blame and you'll be free to spend my
money
well yeah you aren't the only one who
wants me to die these mirrors it's
difficult to tell you are aiming at me
aren't you I'm aiming at you lover cost
killing you is killing myself it's the
same thing but you know I pretty tired
of both of us
[Music]
moving back with mr. well is after this
message
my first guest tonight and only guest is
unique they there is no one quite like
him I guess he is an actor a director a
writer he has been a magician and a
number of other things that as you all
know at 22 he was producing directing
and starring in Broadway and actually
three plays in his own repertory company
he set the film industry on its ear when
he made Citizen Kane frighten the
country with the radio broadcast War of
the Worlds which he thought was merely
an entertainment which a lot of people
took seriously this is and before he was
thirty he had directed as you know
Citizen Kane which many people still
think is when the finest films ever made
and it's on everybody's list of the best
films he's played just about all of the
interesting roles in Shakespeare he has
made 45 films people fall over
themselves trying to describe him
Charlton Heston was unreasonably and
just said probably the greatest
theatrical talent this country has ever
produced Kenneth Tynan once said when if
you've ever met him and later when you
were bored and you tried to think of the
one person he would like to have walk
through the door it would be Orson
Welles I don't think anyone has ever
called him an average kid from Kenosha
Wisconsin with that stories from do us
in the business he's a pioneer and a
hero and to people who are not in the
business he's a legend but he doesn't
like to be treated as that so will you
just welcome the gentleman please Orson
Welles
that's more than I got you did two shows
today that's true how do you know that I
came in when they won the last show was
still on oh yes no it's not a terrible
secret I shouldn't have to vote no not
at all
they know about tape out there and sin
in television land I think by this time
most people know I'm barely caught onto
the idea myself I still think everything
is live I wish it were
do you miss don't you yeah although I
don't know if I I don't know if the
audience is that aware I mean when
you're sitting and watching the thing is
when you bleep or bloop or whatever it
is every third word out of some of your
guests the audience must know something
is happening no sense there could be
that agile no there is a thing you know
that they have a use though on live
television where the user like a
six-second tape delay or something so
although it's live it's a little bit on
tape and they can push a button and if
you stay like being a little pregnant
it's less serious
no it's it's actually running through a
tape machine and if you were to say a
dirty word now I think I don't try it
but I would have a chance to push the
button knowing that the sound would be
erased a little head and then player is
that but that's how I see I'm special
this is a special thing yeah they have
done some shows like that is that the
principle of what happens when they when
they run back certain plays in a game
and show it to you instant replay
instant replay I don't know we way out
of our depth both of both of us you're
quite a get on to something your
questions are good the fact that I don't
have the answers is the hard part I like
something you said one time a lot of
things you said but I remember I found a
quote in which you had said I I like
people to talk to me but I hate it when
they talked to Orson Welles and I know
what you mean by that be sure I think I
do any sure because they they put I
don't mean just me I'm sure you know
what it is if they talk to Dick Cavett
they put on that funny hat that goes
with talking to Dick Cavett and they
aren't themselves yeah you know just
because they've seen you on a screen
larger little you have a kind of
identity for them that
makes them come on a little differently
than themselves and is kind of a drag
could you go easy on the larger little
part I didn't mean that I was talking
about screen on the size of the screen
yes and I don't like talk about wide
screens myself you know I think we leave
this whole territory develop yes I don't
think what people look like has anything
to do with what they're listen I want to
ask you about that piece of film that we
saw I know that you hate to have your
films excerpted and I was coyly turning
my face to the wall all during it yeah
that's interesting I don't know why is
it because it can't possibly tell any of
the story and it just out of context
it's a little no it's because I can't
possibly fix it and I always see things
wrong with it and I'd rather look back
on these films as being much better than
they were that scene for example then
would you would you change anything
about that now well I know what I
changed from listening to it which is
the awful soundtrack that may have been
our project no no it wasn't it's very
cool because what happened what happened
was that after the my version of it
which got it's one preview Harry decided
to fix the music and he got a theme song
which we then had Rita sing this was in
the early days of theme songs it's when
people sang them on screen instead of
having combinations Dinard into your
ears all through the story I wants to
while somebody came on said well since
I'm waiting for the leading man I think
I'll sing a song and they sang a song so
we put that in please don't kiss me or
love me or something or other yeah not a
bad song really and Peggy Lee was quite
good in it off scene because she was
read his voice for that although Rita
sang quite a lot of her own songs in her
own musicals but at Harry Cohn Swim
Peggy Lee or somebody like that would be
brought in to sing part of it I never
understood that anymore and I understand
instant replay but the point that I'm
laboring towards is that
Harry Cohen decided that the theme song
would be nice in a sort of symphonic
version under the shootout at the in the
mirror scene so instead of just hearing
the crash of glass echoing and nothing
else except ricocheting bullets and
glass you have all through it which kind
of losses up the proceedings but it made
him happy yes it made him happy yeah he
is one of the most interesting
characters and he warmed him because he
you no one ever apologizes for saying a
rotten thing about a man who is dead
because they always refer to him as the
unlamented Harry Coney my lament him do
you yeah I liked him I really did it
because he was a monster yeah but they
all were are almost all of them those
guys who ran their own stores in those
old days of Hollywood but he came on as
a monster and he could never be as bad
as his first impression so everything
was a pleasant surprise after that you
know he snarled at you as you came in
the door you know like that and you
could gradually throw him a little
goodies and he would quiet down and
start lashing his tail and I did get to
be quite fond of in spite of the fact
that he bugged my office he really did I
think he bugged everybody's office but I
one day I found a microphone behind a
picture and discovered that this led up
to Harry Cohen's own office so he could
tune in so at the those days I had a
radio show and I'd begin every day at
the office I'd say well good morning
everybody this is mercury productions
bringing a beginning in other day's work
we hope you'll enjoy it we play the
theme and then in your own in the office
for his benefit and then the end of the
day I'd say well that winds up another
day at the mercury tune in tomorrow
[Laughter]
we when he was alright you know it was
alright because he had tremendous
courage how so
well if he believed in something he
would go the distance what gamblers
described as going the distance which is
a great quality in a showman yeah and I
was eternally grateful to him for what
he did for me because I had a musical
only a few doors away from here around
the world 90 days and I had to open in
Boston I had a lot of costumes waiting
did I tell you this story a lot of
costumes waiting in the in a railway
station which couldn't go from the
railway station to the theater about
eight blocks away this was in Boston
where we were opening unless somebody
paid Brookes costume company $47,000 and
we didn't have $47,000 because
originally we had a producer called Mike
Todd who had gone broke and I had done
that terrible scene in movies where he
said come on kids
you know George Murphy used to always do
that and you know Gene Kelly people like
that say come on kids we'll get the show
on anyway you know that terrible thing
and I did that I heard myself speaking
these terrible corny lines and there I
was stuck with $350,000 worth of show
that I had to get on somehow and a lot
of things happen trying to get get it on
can I tell one story parenthetically
before getting to that sure the man who
wrote the music was called ported and
everybody said don't have cold parted
because he's written out and in fact
he'd written a couple of not very
successful shows just before that I said
nobody with all that genius could
possibly be written out and I did the
show with him and he wrote a complete
score not one note of which was ever
heard on radio or indeed on the lips of
anybody wishing to whistle their way up
the aisle out of the theater and the
next show he wrote was Kiss Me Kate
so you see I'd had a little bit of bad
luck and stuck in Boston with a musical
without a single song and needing
$47,000 before curtain time I found
myself in the box office
trying to think of who could send me
this money and I thought Harry Cohen who
I hardly knew and I called him up on a
long-distance phone I said Harry Cohen
this is Orson Welles I've just read a
book and I turned to paper back around
which the girl had in front of her was
selling tickets and I said it's called
something or other wasn't lady from
Shanghai then just this buy it and I
won't make it for you if you'll send me
$47,000 in two hours and he did she and
that's how the picture was made if no
book had been lying there so he's he's
lamented as far as I'm concerned that's
good I will wait for a moment we have
message we'll be right back are you ever
going to write may I call you Orson
again oh my goodness wouldn't it be
ridiculous if you didn't all right are
you ever gonna do a biography of
yourself well I don't think of biography
because nowadays there's a if you buy
somebody's life story they expect an
awful lot of the sort of material that I
don't tell anybody
hmm you know much less who ever would
have the price of a book I think once
privacy is invaded enough without doing
it to oneself but I would like some time
to write a book of with with memoirs an
awful pompous word but on subjects that
interest me and about people I've known
and liked rather than and disasters and
pleasures that I've had and all that but
not a one two three ABC you know one
sunny morning in Kenosha chubby little
one you know
I dunno you know your childhood though
does interest me I really envy it the
idea I never got to Europe until my
present age and a lot of people don't
ever get there and the thought of a
child being taken there over and over as
a kid when was the earliest you went
well I I spent my I've spent my whole
life kind of gypsy around my father
lived in Peking for quite a long time
and I spent five or six years there are
the greater part of those years he
stayed in Peking just because the living
was easy there you know he liked to live
oppress very good a very grand way and
he was born with a lot of bread and cast
it on the waters and it failed to return
and the only the only way he could
really live it up was in Peking where
you could have 400 servants and give
dinner parties with gold plate and have
columns of ice with trees of orchids
frozen into them for a mere pittance
relatively speaking and that's that's
what brought us to Peking and I was I
was sent to Europe at a very early age
on trips first with other little boys
and then by myself totally without any
guidance the idea was you've got to
learn to be on your own that had
happened to my father when he was about
10 well then he did it to me at 10 was
the first time I actually traveled alone
in Europe with just so much money tied
into my genes and there I went you know
did that seem romantic and terribly
romantic yeah terribly romantic what
seemed even more romantic to me were all
the expensive hotels and restaurants I
couldn't afford to get into on the
amount of money they thought I should
learn to get along on can you remember
and seem a bit picturesque
can you remember meeting people then
that you realized later the significance
of if you know what I mean I mean no
because I think I realized then he did
yeah people told me and I was very
impressed by by great people and
interesting people as a kid I was very
interested in older people
unlike most young people
are indeed that is odd for a kid you
didn't have little friends that you
played with I said I had little friends
who if they were big enough chased me
around the block and little friends who
if they were meek enough I bullied but
it was always pretty much of a battle
and a contemporary scene and I was
always scared of teenagers why I hated
them before I was in my teens I thought
they were insane yeah and after I I
spent all my teens pretending not to be
in my teens but in my 20s and avoiding
that age and it's only recently since
the teenagers have become the rulers and
sovereigns of the world that I've
changed my opinion
but until until this very latest
generation I have been a very strongly
of the conviction that there are periods
during one's adolescence one one is
feverishly insane well said that that's
been changed however now yes certain
sympathy now with any more than sympathy
I'm grateful to them even for their
fever we have a message and we will be
right back after talking with Orson
Welles I guess I just can't get over
that childhood of yours the little
scraps I've read about it sitting at
tables at your age with people who were
well in other countries for one thing
but sometimes world leaders I suppose or
were there any world leaders yes the
world leader that that really came to
nothing as far as my memory is concerned
was Hitler I was being escorted this I
went twice through the through the
puroland Austrian German hiking country
once with a with one teacher and once
with another and one of the two teachers
was it turned out a sort of a budding
Nazi and there was a big Nazi rally in
near Innsbruck in the days when the
Nazis were just a very comical kind of
minority party of nuts that nobody took
seriously at all and except my hiking
companion this gentleman and his
knapsack and he wrangled a place at the
table with the great men of this tiny
little party of cranks and I remember
very well afterwards Stryker was the
leader of the big anti-semitic campaigns
and two or three other well-known people
to this day the man sitting next to me
was Hitler and I he made so little
impression on me that I can't remember a
second of it gee he had no personality
whatsoever
wonder fun he was invisible wonderful
under hypnosis it would come at do you
know I think there was nothing there
that anybody'd remember did you had five
thousand people yelling seeker Isle Isle
Hitler that's the point of the story
that there wasn't anything to remember
what about those films that were made
about him by Lanie riefenstahl very good
films are they they often hear that they
they are awfully well made yes is she
alive yes
have you met her no I haven't met her
but she's living I think in England
there's someplace like that and yeah and
hustling around trying to get you know
to flog a documentary here and there you
know almost any subject
I never met Stalin I would I never met
Stalin but I Roosevelt I knew very well
and Churchill and lots of during
childhood and then use of course yes
very lucky that respect what age were
you when you were orphaned well my
mother died when I was six and no seven
and my father died when I was 15
beginning of my 15th birthday then I ran
away tried to stay out of school a lot
of Harvard I had a scholarship and
desperate not to be educated I went into
the theater it made it I wasn't educated
what if you what if you were now I mean
what if you wanted to go to school what
would you have any idea what you want to
study now that's a good question
everything I guess but yeah if I wanted
to be a to study seriously you know and
get good at a subject I think it would
be anthropology don't you think that's
fascinating so yeah yeah yeah I I don't
know maybe I would do it or maybe
philosophy yeah I never very much I'm
suspicious of philosophy I have a grille
Philistine doubt about it's worth you
know but anthropology seems to me to be
just that its beginnings and philosophy
kind of at its end and we're at the end
of this segment but we will be right
back is that too I'm too contrived we'll
be back
who else stands out from that that time
in your life in it what phases come to
mind
you mean famous ones sure or infamous
yes famous or any of that well we had
sicko Gruber but I you know um you do
you know you know wonderful people that
that aren't famous I guess one of the
most remarkable people I ever knew was
somebody called Cornelia Lunt and Alfred
Lunt used to pretend to be her cousin
they weren't related at all they loved
each other and she was when I knew her
in her middle 90s and had been a hostess
of great importance although very young
in the civil war in America and knew
intimately all the great names of the
civil could tell you all about what
Lincoln said and what my
great-grandfather Gideon Welles said to
his secretary may be in the cabinet she
great kind of rocontour on the civil war
that she went over to London where she
was at the American Embassy and where
she knew everybody in England all those
fabulous people that seemed to have been
dead for 200 years you know in the
Victorian age and it was you could only
get her to tell about these things with
great difficulty she didn't go on and on
like I do you had had to drag it out of
her and she was delicious
she was an old lady but when she gave a
big party sat on a little stool and she
gave you a big chair if you can imagine
an old lady like that she was very
beautiful
must have been not so beautiful when she
was young but one of those people that
old age glorifies and she had a little
bill and when she wanted everybody to be
quiet so she could say something she'd
ring her bill
and then we don't be quiet and she'd
make her little statement then ring it
again and everybody could talk she's one
of the great people I've known you know
as great certainly as as Churchill or
Roosevelt or George Marshall and I
suppose Marshall is the greatest man I
ever met
really yes I would think what would you
admire what about him above everybody
else human being I think he's the he's
the greatest human being who was also a
great man well I was ever privileged to
meet have you known something that were
can I tell a little story about him
certainly we'd been campaigning for
Roosevelt not George Marshall but some
of the rest of us and one of our rewards
when he got in again one of those many
times that he did was to go to a big
party a very big brass and sit on the
Dyess and be treated as though we were
part of the High Command just for one
night and there were all these
tremendous names from the Second World
War two or three civilians Truman the
vice president who was playing the piano
we were rather embarrassed about that
because he didn't seem to be awfully
good on the piano and we didn't know
that he was going to be a great
president you see that's he didn't look
as though he did either but he and my
said they're only about four or five
civilians all the rest were tremendous
brass dripping with gold braid and
medals and everything else and it was in
the Mayflower Hotel in Washington and a
door opened and GI more innocent looking
than anything you could possibly imagine
and younger than anything you could
dream of stuck his head in at the moment
when General Marshall happened to look
toward the door
and the boy looked at him he said gee
general Marshall can I come in and say
hello to you Marshall said yeah come in
and Marshall didn't know anybody was
watching this wasn't a grandstand play
I was in a position my camera was angled
so he didn't know he was getting
photographed to anybody's film of memory
yeah and he took the boy aside away from
everybody and sat down with him and I
heard as he went that the boy had been
away from home was when the boy
recognized Marsha was somebody like a
family now this was the commander there
all holy Allied forces and he sat with
this boy without any grandstanding at
all and just put him at ease and made
him feel at home again for half an hour
and left all the rest of us he was that
kind of film wonder what the difference
is between two men like that and the
ones who are impressive publicly but
couldn't be bothered to talk to anyone
that isn't important two of them were
flat well I I don't know those those
kind of people are all second-rate who
can't be bothered at all ever but there
are those who can't be bothered
sometimes you know and that's you had a
feeling with Marshall that if it were
possible to be bothered he would let
himself be bothered he was a tremendous
gentleman you know an old-fashioned
institution which isn't with us anymore
okay you almost never want to ask anyone
the question who impressed you the most
and it's wonderful to have a guest who
can give you the answer well I never do
know the answers to those kind of
sergeants you know but I just happened
to know that one of course I was
immensely impressed with Churchill and
but but he was quite another thing you
know he was he had great humor and great
irony he went to see me when I played
Othello on the stage in London and I
heard a low murmuring in the front row I
thought he was talking to himself and
then he came backstage afterwards and
sat down in the dressing room and said
most potent grave and unseen your
masters and began the halls of Othello's
part which he had memorized and
including the cuts which I had made
which he read with a good deal of extra
emphasis
then a few years afterwards I happen to
be in Venice trying to get some money
for a movie
during the festival and poor Churchill
had been right after the war there's you
know crest of the greatest victory that
any single man had ever presided over in
modern history was voted out of office
quite properly probably but it was a
tragic blow for him and there he was in
the hotel at the Lido with Clemmy his
wife alone and he'd go swimming out in
the beach one day at lunch I came in
with a Russian businessman I was trying
to hustle for some money for this
picture and as we passed mr. Churchill's
table mr. Churchill saw me and made that
little gesture and the Russian went out
of his mind this is a White Russian not
a red Russian this is a this is a you
know hustling semi Armenian Russian when
he saw that mr. Churchill not only knew
me but gave a rather special
acknowledgment it was clear to me that I
had the money for my picture so the next
morning I was out swimming in the beach
and I fire and I found myself paddling
in the water right next to mr. Churchill
and I hadn't gone up to speak to it
there we were in the water and I had
known him on and off during the war in a
humble capacity and I said missus and he
had come backstage to see me and I said
mr. Churchill I think you ought to know
what you did for me and I told him about
how this acknowledgment had meant so
much to me with my financier and that
day at lunch I came in with the Finan
see again and mr. Churchill rose and bow
that is good pretty good
that's good we'll be back after this
message you've lived all over the place
and all over the globe and then you for
as a long time when you'd went out in
this country then you suddenly came back
oh what opinion do you have of some of
the generalizations that are made about
the country that there's a Oh something
violent in the American character for
example or that there is other countries
I think there is don't you I think there
always has though yeah I think it's part
of our whole story I think the one thing
that is generally true the one
generalization which is true about
America is that everything is true about
it it's impossible to say anything that
isn't true good or bad our enemies are
right our friends are right yeah it's an
awful big country an awful lot of
different kinds of people in it and
violence always has been part of our
story it is you know I've seen it in my
own lifetime long before this period and
we certainly read about it in history
that's the way we won in the country and
stole it away from the Indians and all
the rest of it is it I wonder why it
should be though there's any reason why
the English if if they had had Indians
in England before they were Englishmen
there we had some Indians and Indians in
India yes they did didn't they and they
had those kind of folks all over and
they in some places they brought the law
and justice and I've talked to people in
other ex-colonies nice people when you
mention the British burst into tears of
anger literally tears of rage about our
nice English cousins so the bad things
are true about them they burnt the roofs
off of the Irish and starve them out
into the cold there's nothing nothing
that you can think of that the English
didn't do to that Island right next door
to them to the Irish over a period of
seven hundred years and we're English
then we added a lot of other violent
mixtures to the brew I think man is a
crazy animal
I think we are all so I think we're all
so marvelous people divine in our
potentialities you see there you are you
can say anything with passion and get a
hand but but seriously I think
everything is true about people just as
it's true about America we can do
anything anything vile and anything
great and all the generalizations are
true and all of them are boring as you
must certainly have noted in the line of
your work I'm gonna ask you about your
work could I interview you I know that
good idea I suppose is it important well
let me tell you it's frightening to meet
a legend and I know that it must be
upsetting for you too and I I know that
half your life has been spent wanting to
know about me so shoot well it seems
like that's true because I've been
watching you an awful long time well and
uh and with great pleasure as millions
of other people have been doing I think
that deserves a little applause Oh No
but really really really I would like to
know more about you and I bet there and
millions of people who don't know much
about you except as you appear in the
course of your conversation now there
was the other night on the shore not the
other night some weeks ago I heard you
say to my distress that you had once
been enacted oh yes I'm always sorry to
hear anybody that I admire has been
enough
there are those who were more
immediately distressed than you were
that night yes I was one of the I guess
in the annals of the theater I guess
probably one of the one of the top three
second murderers in Richard the third
that was that your only rule yes and
unfortunately it wasn't even in the play
Richard the third a III was in a
repertory thing this actually have
anyone that I committed the awful sin of
being in repertory and coming out and
doing a line from the wrong play not
just one line but it certainly you've
done that you're you're you're a veteran
because we've all done that have you
done that oh my goodness oh my goodness
yes we even had a gag of it by the way
you said something wrong when you
introduced me you said and this is a
parenthesis that I'd produce three plays
in my repertory company and then went to
to Hollywood and in fact we did dozens
and dozens of shows I had one OK at one
time we had a repertory in which we were
our proposition our idea was to do a
tragedy which was danton's death and
another night forest by Labiche and we
had famous actor from middle europe
playing in the tragedy and he didn't
have any part in the forest but every
night of the forest he used to come in
during the big door slamming thing
dressed up his robe spear look around
sit a stake and run out again in the
wrong play
but show the right spirit not America
but but we've all wait you know in
Shakespeare you're going to the wrong
lines all the time because of the rhythm
sure you stop thinking for a miniature
in another play
I saw another actor do it one tennis at
Stratford Connecticut but he came on and
he started the Merchant of Venice right
in the middle of the council scene in a
fellow and and it's pretty hard when the
Council of Cyprus breaks up laughing and
giggling and the seriously and it's very
very you began isn't that excuse me if I
press on with this that's alright you
won't learn anything when did you go
straight while you were asking that
question that startled me no I'm kind of
a male Garbo mr. wells I I like to
preserve a great deal of mystery about
myself and I'm so easy
[Laughter]
we we have a message we'll be right
we'll be right back
see this amazing Cuse me I don't think
we should let you weasel out of this
crisis
you know you sit there you sit there
night after night for 90 minutes at a
time
drunk with power Helton people with
questions and a few simple little
requests for information and what do we
get
you know the second murder that's right
now what did you do after after leaving
the boys after leaving the boards well
and I was a comedy writer for a while I
wrote for that I'm Jack Paar and others
nob that uh that brings me to a question
you mentioned Jack Paar and then you say
and others yes I do were the others I'm
learning how to do this Jerry Lewis
ringabel
a rather dim gong
I'm gonna go sound like no fat no no
calories not it's funny but the same
delivery no no no really I'd like I'd
like to press on with an embarrassing
question really you know among tenors
for example yes among newscasters among
Shakespearean actors even among
politicians there's very little
reluctance to discuss the competition
but why among you fellows who sit saying
will you welcome please a sweet singer
of songs and and when did you stop
beating your wife and all the rest of it
why do you why do you fellows shrivel up
your heads get like little walnuts
when anybody ever mentions for example
Johnny Carson or Merv Griffin oh yeah or
David Frost
well what is this reluctance to mention
even the names all right that's a good
question we do you know you're all like
that it isn't just you and an official
reason and not express even an opinion
on them because I think it's because you
are in competition with them in a sense
although those guys are both friends
when you mentioned I worked for the
minnow and you feel kind of funny
talking about somebody's doing sort of
the same thing you do and I think that's
why none of us ever mentioned the other
jerks the other fellas oh you you've
trapped me mr. wells
I know it's interesting I don't feel
that I have no
you you're a sly one
you strip me bare I see I'm getting
nowhere with that line well you know
what it makes me uncomfortable because I
feel that I'm here every night and so
are they and you're not you see
I see so you don't want me to go on with
this well you know will remain this
mystery forever yeah I feel like I'm a
thinly wrapped enigma there isn't really
there may not be that much there to know
but I you know while you're here I feel
obligated to all those people
particularly the film buffs who who
expected me to ask you certain questions
but then you're probably tired of a lot
of those I never answer yeah I never
answer I'm not because I have because of
naughtiness it's just that I I don't
know the answers to most of the
questioned Jerry Lewis yeah and I caught
him on on one of your friends shows I
guess we call him your friend yes I
caught them on one of your friends shows
in fact he was on interminably one of
your friends shows yes and I feel that
what he did for Myra Breckinridge I
ought to do for Jerry Lewis
he really has a way of coming on as a
great thinker which should be stopped
why I mention him though and I'm not
going to mention him much longer because
I would hate to do for him what he did
for my regret later why I mention is
because he said the sort of thing that
you hear from film buffs and you don't
expect hear from Jerry Lewis he actually
said on The Tonight Show yeah
well the secret of authenticity and
complete autocracy and autonomy is
autonomy and cinematic integrity or
words to that effect now those are the
kind of questions that the film buffs
like to ask and that I guess Jerry Lewis
answers cuz he teaches he teaches how to
make movies in a school among other
things I believe that was that was a
thought he dropped several times and my
bitterness about him stems from the fact
that here's a rich fellow who has plenty
other things to do except come on with
that kind of dialogue this really too
much of it you there's many long words
you know they're too many long words in
the world nowadays and the younger that
people are the longer the words are have
you noticed that it's a very funny thing
they have a wonderful new hip language
which is really our old Harlem language
that I used to know when I was running a
theater up there with a few new phrases
and they're great and very colorful but
everything else is terribly long nobody
says I see a thing a certain way they
say I envisage it
nobody says under 30 I would like to
think up an idea they say I have
conceived something or this is my
conception or not or I this is my
relationship everything is four or five
syllables long there's a veracity in
what you're saying
[Laughter]
do you have any recurrent dreams
[Laughter]
I think we'll take a break
[Laughter]
two can play at this game we'll be back
it was good I wondered am I one thing I
read about you that I found a little
surprising was that you check me on this
did not like solitude I loved solitude
then they were wrong you bet but aren't
they always wrong I guess so have you
been badly misquoted but I think
everybody is and everything I don't
think history can possibly be true
possibly I'll tell you why because we
all know people get things written about
we know that their lies would have
written we I told a story to buck Henry
last year in Guaymas and he told the
story that he thought I had told him to
a newspaper that I read the other day
and it bears not the slightest
resemblance to what I said now that's an
intelligent man a year later meaning me
well and that's the you know the Gospel
according to buck Henry and it's a
totally apocryphal imagine what nonsense
everything else is I know it is do you
want to clear it up now how about that I
don't like solitude no no no the story
no it isn't worth going into our lap
isn't it isn't all that good a story
yeah when you were in that film and it
seemed I must have improved it maybe
that's why I was just talking history is
an improved version of what happened
no not necessarily only a buck Henry
writes it I guess I think what about
when you're on a film like that where
somebody else is directing and they do
tend to be in all of you as much as you
don't like people to be and might Mike
Nichols making that film he said it it
would probably he was worried about the
fact that he would know that you working
just as an actor we're also thinking
about the direction at the same time can
you calm somebody down about that in his
case he was put at his ease almost
immediately when he sensed as he must
have sensed since he's an immensely
intuitive man that I enormous Lee
admired it and so how could he have been
anything but comfortable what do they
mean when they say you know they someone
said about you had worked with you in a
film he not only knows if he's in the
shot he knows so much about movies he
knows if he's in focus is this possible
well I know what I know what where the
camera is cutting
I know what I know what what's in the
shot and what isn't from from a working
a long working acquaintanceship with
lenses and the camera you know I'm I'm
at ease in that respect you have to
learn that if you jump back and forth
it's not all that miraculous sounds
great but isn't all that wonderful so
you really can't tell if you're if
you're yelling it's not that hard to do
is it nitpicking or annoying when people
ask specific little questions about film
like in Citizen Kane and people remember
it's nitpicky oh no sorry that was rude
I beg your pardon
cheap and easy again that's an issue no
I was gonna say that everybody remembers
it was it everybody remembers that one
scene where you suddenly cut to a
cockatoo screeching just before it was
to wake up the audience it's the entire
significance of the cockatoo I just
can't get a pic I can't get a
pretentious answer out of you we will be
back after message stay where you are
this is an album Orson Welles the
beginning of the president and it goes
from FDR up to the current time and mr.
Welles was very sensitive well it kind
asked me not to even mention it in the
comical in intention good good what does
it mean that you were a brigadier
general once now there's a question well
you weren't my war memorized ooh I'd
like that
well I used to be drafted every month
all during the war oh and I was drafted
every month and thrown out the same day
because of a bad back and a lot of other
things but drafted every month because
the draft board contains some Hearst
people and Hearst was after me because
of Kane and this was a good way to
needle me so right up to the end when
there were you know just the bottom of
the barrel was lining up you know
dressed like they do at the end of the
first act of hair waiting to shuffle off
into oblivion there I was I was a
familiar
figure I may say in the draft Department
and during the course of the war I was
sent on several totally idiotic missions
of one sort and another in a civilian
capacity but when you car flew over or
near enemy territory as a civilian they
give you sort of a semi official title
so that if you're captured highly
unlikely situation you will be treated
by the rank that your documents say you
have and several times I was a major and
I made chicken colonel and once as a
joke somebody made me Brigadier General
which wasn't that unusual sometimes kind
of faintly well-known people got to be
Brigadier General on a piece of paper in
case you were captured well here I am on
the draft board right near the end of
the war once again we're all lined up
and for some reason the sergeant says
all right anybody who's ever been in the
army or have held any rank please step
forward
about ten of us step forward he says all
right anybody what to rank anybody above
the rank of Corporal not left about
three yeah
he says above the rank of Sergeant and
that left me now you know the rest of
this pie had been up for several nights
and them I wasn't at my best
I didn't think and he says what was your
rank and I said brigadier general and he
said all right down on your hands and
knees and pick up all the cigarette
butts general and I spent the rest of
the day naked picking up cigarette butts
Oh for having been a general that's my
and my war service
none of that was captured on film
luckily no yeah we didn't make those
kind of movies then I wondered only have
two minutes left
has anyone ever made a pornographic
masterpiece I think it could only be a
masterpiece of pornography but not a
masterpiece which was pornographic if
you understand what I mean other words
if what you're after is to excite people
sexually / excite them or stimulate them
then it should be possible to make a
film which is exciting and is therefore
a masterpiece of excitation but you
cannot make a film masterpiece which is
pornographic because the material is
antipathetic
to the film you can get as dirty as you
want but not also excite people because
exciting people during the course of a
story exciting them sexually is changing
the subject so completely that you have
no more narrative form there goes my
project I just been thinking for now
someone asked about the other day and I
was curious about it we have a minute
left if we were loading on the ark now
and you could grab four or five films
not your own but other people's to save
on the ark for posterity
what would you grab to death quick
another answer another question
oh yeah oh another girl you to film me
two films yeah two films two films
grantee Luciana Renoir yeah and
something else
[Laughter]
I'll never do that to you again we will
be back after this massacre local
station
Thank You dick I think I ought to say
explain for our viewers that something
else of course is the film directed by
James Cruz with Radha la Roca Korean
griffith there is a something else look
it up oh you've stunned me and I'm sorry
I grabbed you with that question like
that something we'll all look Brenda New
Zealand and something else gee thank you
for being here this is really a pleasure
and I feel very lucky to graduate from
at all thank you please come again
[Applause]
he'd pull their hopes on Republic
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