Explaining the Fall to Atheists

Summary

In this discussion, Jonathan Pedro explores the concept of the Fall and how it relates to human experience and perception. He argues that the notion of being 'fallen' is embedded in everyday experiences and critiques of religion. Pedro delves into the philosophical and theological implications of the Fall, examining the gap between human desires and reality, and how this gap is reflected in secular and religious thought. He discusses the story of Adam and Eve as a framework for understanding this gap and emphasizes the importance of purpose and sacrifice in overcoming the suffering associated with it. Pedro concludes by highlighting the need for consciousness of this gap and the role of Christ in bridging it.

Takeaways

• 😇 The concept of 'the Fall' is difficult for secular individuals to grasp, but it is deeply embedded in the human experience of a gap between the ideal and the real.
• 📚 Jonathan Pedro introduces the symbolic world and invites viewers to become members for community engagement and exclusive content.
• 🤔 The Enlightenment critique of Christianity by figures like Voltaire is itself a form of Christian criticism, highlighting the inherent gap between ideals and reality.
• 🌐 Gnosticism posits that the world is inherently evil and that salvation lies in escaping to a higher spiritual plane, which raises questions about the origin of morality and purpose.
• 🔍 The existence of a 'gap' between our current state and our ideals challenges both nihilistic and theistic worldviews to explain the source of our moral sense and aspirations.
• 🧘‍♂️ Jordan Peterson and others discuss the idea that existence is bound in purpose, with reality presenting itself through a hierarchy of identities and purposes.
• 🏃‍♂️ The human experience is characterized by a constant movement towards closing the gap between our current state and our desired state, which is perceived as suffering in the pursuit of purpose.
• 🎭 Dante and classical philosophers describe the human condition as a journey from lack to fulfillment, driven by desire and the perception of purpose.
• 🛑 The act of self-consciousness and the knowledge of good and evil from Genesis are related to the problem of perceiving our distance from the good and the need to bridge that gap.
• ✝️ Christ's path, as understood in Christian theology, involves embracing suffering and sacrifice as a means to close the gap between our current state and our ultimate purpose.
• 🕊️ The story of the Fall in Genesis is presented as a way to understand the inherent human condition of perceiving a gap between our state and our purpose, and the moral implications of this perception.

Q & A

What is the main topic of the transcript?

The main topic of the transcript is the concept of the Fall, as it relates to human existence, morality, and the gap between our current state and the higher purposes we aim for. The speaker discusses how this concept is difficult for secular people to understand but is deeply embedded in everyday experiences.

Why do secular people struggle to understand the notion of the Fall?

Secular people struggle to understand the notion of the Fall because it involves accepting a metaphysical idea that the world is somehow inherently flawed or distant from its intended purpose. This concept is challenging for those who don't believe in a higher intelligence or purpose governing the world.

How does the speaker relate the Fall to everyday experiences?

The speaker relates the Fall to everyday experiences by explaining that people constantly perceive a gap between what is and what should be. This gap manifests in their moral judgments, desires, and actions, reflecting the idea of being distant from a higher purpose or state.

What criticism does the speaker mention about Voltaire's view of Christianity?

The speaker criticizes Voltaire for using a Christian framework to criticize Christianity. Voltaire identifies gaps or failures in Christianity based on his sense of what should be, but this sense itself is rooted in Christian values, leading to a kind of circular criticism.

How does the concept of the Fall explain the gap between human aspirations and reality?

The concept of the Fall explains the gap between human aspirations and reality by suggesting that humans are in a state of distance from their intended purpose. This distance creates a sense of suffering or lack, which drives human actions and desires as they try to bridge the gap.

What role does self-consciousness play in the perception of the Fall?

Self-consciousness plays a crucial role in the perception of the Fall because it involves becoming aware of the gap between oneself and the ideal or good that one aspires to. This awareness leads to a sense of duality and distance, which is central to the experience of the Fall.

How does the speaker connect the story of Genesis to the concept of the Fall?

The speaker connects the story of Genesis to the concept of the Fall by interpreting the knowledge of good and evil as the beginning of human self-consciousness and awareness of the gap between their current state and the ideal. This awareness introduces a sense of distance and suffering, which is a key aspect of the Fall.

What does the speaker suggest is the solution to overcoming the gap created by the Fall?

The speaker suggests that overcoming the gap created by the Fall involves a conscious acceptance of suffering and a willingness to sacrifice lower purposes for higher ones. This is exemplified in the path of Christ and the martyr, where suffering is embraced as a way to move closer to the ultimate purpose.

How does the speaker describe the relationship between suffering and purpose?

The speaker describes the relationship between suffering and purpose as intrinsic to human experience. Suffering arises from the gap between one's current state and their desired goal, but it can also be a source of joy if it is aligned with a higher purpose and seen as part of the journey towards that purpose.

What is the significance of the tree of life in the speaker's interpretation of the Fall?

In the speaker's interpretation, the tree of life in Genesis symbolizes the ultimate good or purpose that humans perceive only after gaining knowledge of good and evil. The act of eating the forbidden fruit reveals the gap between humans and this ultimate purpose, leading to the experience of suffering and the need to bridge that gap.

Outlines

00:00

🤔 Understanding the Concept of the Fall

In this introduction, the speaker discusses the difficulty many people, especially those with a secular mindset, have in understanding the concept of the Fall—the idea that humans and creation are somehow 'Fallen.' The speaker emphasizes that this notion is deeply embedded in everyday experiences and even in critiques of religion. The purpose is to explore and provide examples to help the audience grasp the significance of the Fall in human existence.

05:02

🧐 The Gap Between What Is and What Should Be

The speaker delves into the concept of 'the Gap'—the perceived distance between the world as it is and how it ought to be. This gap is present in secular critiques, such as those during the Enlightenment, which often fail to recognize their inherent moral assumptions. The speaker questions the origin of this gap, contrasting a meaningless, purposeless world with one created by a loving God. The Gnostic perspective is introduced, where the world is seen as intrinsically evil, further complicating the understanding of this moral and existential divide.

10:04

🎯 Purpose and the Experience of Suffering

This paragraph explores how human existence is inherently tied to purpose, and how our perception of reality is shaped by the constant pursuit of goals. The speaker connects this to the concept of the Fall, arguing that the experience of a gap between our current state and our desired state is a form of suffering. This is illustrated through everyday examples, like going to the store, where the gap creates a sense of discomfort or 'suffering' until the goal is achieved. The paragraph highlights how this dynamic of purpose and suffering is central to human experience.

15:05

🌌 The Cosmic Struggle for Purpose and the Role of Self-Consciousness

The speaker examines the broader implications of the gap on a cosmic and existential level, questioning the ultimate purpose of life and how this purpose is often elusive. The concept of a 'God-shaped hole' in humans is introduced, representing the constant yearning for a higher good that remains just out of reach. The Fall, as described in Genesis, is interpreted as the awakening to this duality and the recognition of our distance from the good we seek. The speaker suggests that this awareness of the gap is intrinsic to human self-consciousness and underlies the moral and existential struggles we face.

🙏 Embracing Suffering and Sacrifice for a Higher Purpose

This paragraph discusses the Christian perspective on bridging the gap, particularly through the example of Christ, who embraced suffering and death for a higher purpose. The speaker argues that by willingly accepting suffering, rather than resisting it, individuals can transform their suffering into a path towards greater good. This idea is exemplified by the martyr, who sacrifices all lesser goals for the ultimate purpose. The paragraph concludes by linking this sacrificial attitude to everyday life, where even the discipline of learning or training involves suffering towards a meaningful goal.

🌳 The Fall and the Refusal to Suffer

In the final paragraph, the speaker reflects on the Fall of Adam and Eve, interpreting it as a refusal to embrace suffering and the consequences of their actions. By eating the fruit, they became aware of the gap between themselves and the good, but instead of accepting the suffering necessary to bridge this gap, they sought to avoid it, leading to the complex history of human suffering. The speaker ties this back to the idea that the gap is a fundamental part of human existence, affecting not only moral choices but every aspect of moving towards a purpose.

Keywords

💡The Fall

The Fall refers to the concept of humanity and creation being inherently flawed or fallen, stemming from the biblical story of Adam and Eve. In the video, this idea is central as it explains the gap between the ideal state and the current flawed state of humanity. The speaker argues that this concept is woven into everyday experiences, as people constantly perceive a distance between what is and what should be.

💡Gap

The Gap is the perceived distance between the current state of the world or an individual and the ideal state they aspire to. This concept is crucial in the video as it underpins the notion of the Fall, where there is a constant struggle to reconcile the imperfect present with the ideal future. The speaker illustrates this through examples like the Enlightenment criticism of religion, which still acknowledges a gap between reality and ideals.

💡Telos

Telos is a Greek term meaning 'purpose' or 'end goal.' In the video, the speaker uses Telos to discuss how humans naturally perceive the world through the lens of purpose. This perception is linked to the idea of the Fall, as it creates a sense of distance or Gap between one's current state and their ultimate purpose or goal. The speaker argues that this striving toward Telos is an essential part of human experience.

💡Self-consciousness

Self-consciousness is the awareness of oneself, particularly in relation to moral and existential concerns. The video connects self-consciousness with the Fall, suggesting that becoming aware of the distance between oneself and the ideal (good) is a form of suffering. This awareness brings with it the realization of moral failings and the need to bridge the Gap toward a higher purpose.

💡Suffering

Suffering, in the context of the video, is the experience of the Gap between one's current state and their desired state. The speaker explains that this suffering is inherent in the pursuit of purpose and is not limited to physical pain but includes the existential discomfort of not aligning with one's goals. Suffering is also tied to the idea of sacrifice and the process of overcoming obstacles to reach a higher purpose.

💡Martyrdom

Martyrdom is the act of sacrificing one's life or significant aspects of it for a higher purpose or belief. The speaker uses martyrdom as an extreme example of willingly enduring suffering to achieve the ultimate Telos. Martyrs are portrayed as those who embrace suffering fully, sacrificing all other goals for the highest purpose, thus embodying the path that Christ exemplified.

💡Gnosticism

Gnosticism is an ancient belief system that views the material world as inherently evil or flawed and seeks spiritual knowledge to transcend it. The video contrasts this with Christian views on the Fall, highlighting that while Gnostics see creation itself as evil, Christianity views the world as good but fallen. The speaker uses Gnosticism to illustrate different interpretations of the Gap and how it influences one’s perception of the world.

💡Enlightenment

The Enlightenment refers to the 18th-century intellectual movement that emphasized reason, science, and skepticism of religion. The speaker references Enlightenment thinkers like Voltaire to illustrate how even secular critiques of religion operate within a framework that acknowledges a Gap between what is and what should be. The Enlightenment is used to demonstrate that this sense of fallenness is present even in secular worldviews.

💡Moral Sense

Moral Sense is the innate or culturally influenced ability to distinguish between right and wrong. The video discusses how this moral sense poses a challenge for purely secular worldviews, as it suggests a higher standard or purpose beyond mere material existence. The speaker argues that this moral sense is evidence of the Gap and the Fall, as it reveals an awareness of a higher good that is not always reflected in reality.

💡Christ

Christ, in the context of the video, is presented as the figure who provides a solution to the problem of the Gap by showing a path through suffering toward redemption. The speaker explains that Christ’s example of embracing suffering and sacrifice offers a way to bridge the Gap between the fallen state of humanity and the ultimate purpose. This path is seen as challenging but necessary for overcoming the effects of the Fall.

Highlights

The notion of the Fall is difficult for secular people to understand, but it is deeply embedded in everyday experience.

The concept of Fallenness is often found even in secular criticisms of religion.

There is a perceived gap between what should be and what is in the world, a central theme in understanding the Fall.

Gnostic thinking posits that creation itself is evil and that one must escape the world to a higher spiritual state.

The idea of a cosmic Fall is crucial to explain the moral and existential gap between the ideal and the real.

The question arises: if the world is meaningless, where does our moral sense come from?

Voltaire's criticism of Christianity exemplifies how even Enlightenment thinkers operate within a Christian moral framework.

Existence is bound in purpose, and our perceptions are structured by a hierarchy of purposes.

The experience of distance from our goals, even in mundane tasks, reflects the structure of the Fall.

The story of Genesis is a powerful way to understand the existential and moral gap within us.

Self-consciousness brings awareness of the gap between good and our current state, which is a key element of the Fall.

Suffering can be transformed into joy when it is directed towards a higher purpose.

The martyr's willingness to sacrifice all proximal goals for the highest purpose is an ultimate example of this transformative suffering.

The narrative of the Fall in Genesis highlights the consequences of refusing to suffer purposefully.

Secular critics of religion often unconsciously rely on the good they perceive, but they fail to account for it within their worldview.

Transcripts

one of the things that it is very

difficult for people to understand is

the notion of the Fall the idea that

humans that the world that creation is

somehow

Fallen uh it's very difficult for

secular people to understand that but I

do believe in fact that people

experience that every day and that it is

in fact the idea of being Fallen is in

fact deeply uh knitted into the very

structure of their experience everyday

experience uh you know even in their own

criticism of religion this this

structure of fallenness is inserted so

what I want to do is I want to look at

all of that uh think about it and

hopefully give you some examples that

will help you understand why we talk

about the notion that creation that

humans are fallen and what that means

this is Jonathan Pedro welcome to the

symbolic

[Applause]

world and so if you enjoy what we're

doing here at symbolic world before we

start make sure to go to the symbolic

world.com and become a member you can

become a member uh completely free and

join a community of wonderful discussion

but there are also ways that you can

support what we're doing doing and you

can get uh access to the monthly Q&A to

uh free monthly video as well as

discounts on some of the on some of the

products like the courses that we're

doing and so thank you for your support

it is truly appreciated now one of the

issues of the Fall one of the things

that makes it difficult for people to

understand what the fall is is a

criticism that I brought to many of the

secularist is that in some ways they

struggle to see their position they to

see where they are and you know and you

see that for example in the

enlightenment you can see that in

volta's criticism of Christianity in

some ways he criticizes Christianity for

not doing what he thinks that should be

done for not doing the good that he

thinks that should be done and he sees

the Enlightenment and kind of

Enlightenment the movement towards

Enlightenment as doing the good things

in the world that should be done now the

problem with that type of thinking is

that if you say that you nonetheless

have this sense that there's a gap that

there's a gap between what you think

should be and what is in the world and

that Gap is very particular it's very

strange because if the world is Fallen

like I mean not even I won't use the

word Fallen yet if the world is

meaningless if the world doesn't have

toos if the world isn't Bound in higher

intelligence and purpose and reason then

where does the gap come from why do we

have this sense of the distance now on

the other hand if on the opposite side

if the world is created by God by a

loving God and you know that it is full

of meaning and Tails and purpose then

why is there a Gap then you know and

this is of course something which can be

explained by the notion of the Fall now

the the gnostics they perceive that

right you can see that in Gnostic

heresies and Gnostic thinking where

people notice the difference between

what they think they should be and their

current state and so what they have to

posit is that the world itself is born

in some evil that creation itself is

evil that the world itself is

intrinsically fallen and that we have to

escape the world into some higher sphere

to some spiritual state in order to be

able to escape the reality of the world

now this of course is uh also a problem

because then why does the world exist so

you have to posit that the world is evil

in itself and that the cause of the

world you know wherever it is if you

imagine some dark uh you know Fallen God

H is the cause of the world but you

still keep putting the problem further

back at some point there has to be some

kind kind of cosmic fall which accounts

for The Gap now can the God only be evil

and this is something that you can see

or can the world just be dark

meaningless and without purpose and that

again that causes the problem that I

mentioned at the outset which is if so

then where does our moral Sense come

from if the origin of all things is

simply dark and you know uh nihilistic

ultimately or evil or E either way you

want to think about it then where does

our sense that something is wrong and

that we should do good where does our

capacity to judge morally come from now

this of course is the problem with Vol

himself this is what Tom Holland has

pointed out in his book Dominion that

ultimately what voler does is he does a

Christian criticism of Christianity he

uses his his kind of taken for granted

Christian point of view and criticizes

Christianity with it and so we have to

be able to account for this Gap now this

is really the a good way to understand

it now if if people struggle to go with

the story of the fall of Adam Adam and

Eve that we find in scripture or the

fall of the angels that we find in more

kind of extra biblical sources as the

cause for The Gap and and a way to enter

into an explanation of the Gap then you

nonetheless have to account for that Gap

and this is a serious problem you have

to be able to understand why it is that

we experience the difference

now a good way to understand it is that

in terms of

our existence our existence is bound in

purpose this is something that we've

been talking about all the time like

with Jorge Jordan Peterson talks about

the idea that and and I've talked about

this myself and John drai talk about

this which is you know this kogai idea

that what you see in the world are

purposes like what you see in the world

is are paths towards action and so every

identity that you perceive is put into a

hierarchy of identity and a hierarchy of

purpose and things appear as obstacles

or Tools in order to get to your purpose

and so the very structure of the way

reality presents itself seems to have at

least the possib

of the fall in it and what do I mean by

that what I mean is that if we see the

world in Telos if we see the world

through purposes that is you know I have

certain purposes that are important to

me as a human and I establish my map of

the world the identities that I perceive

in that hierarchy first of all then all

my perceptions all my identities are

participating in the sense of distance

from purpose and so you can see how that

is akin to the fall which is the

perception that there is a gap between

my state and the state that I want to be

and this is of course what Dante

describes in the The Divine Comedy the

way that even classical philosophers

talk about the the relationship the

motor of Aros right the motor of desire

which moves us in our lack towards the

Ts that presents itself to us and we

find rest in that movement so of course

it sounds very abstract at the outset

but it's very very practical which is

that you know I have to go to the store

to go

shopping I see the door and now I

experience the my I experience my

purpose as a kind of suffering that is a

very small suffering but it's a

suffering that is in the sense that I am

now not in line with my purpose I have

to cover the gap between what it is that

I'm aiming at in my current state and

you could say that that is a definition

of suffering because you're not in the

your control of the situation right the

aim that you have is not manifested in

the world there's a gap between that so

you suffer and that suffering it's a

very small suffering but it is a

suffering of Desire that I suffer the I

suffer my distance from the door and now

I move towards the door and once I reach

the door then I am absolved like I am

healed I find rest from that suffering

now of course that suffering you could

say or that desire is embedded in more

and more desires so that you know I'm

always kind of moving from purpose and

Tails and desire into other purposes and

taow and desires

um and so our very perception of reality

and our very engagement with reality

seems to account for The Gap that's

distance between my state and the state

that I'm looking for now of course we

can see that in a proximal way right

which is you know I need to go to the

store and then I have this this little

process of let's say covering the fall

and moving towards the light moving

towards the reason and then finding rest

in that in that purpose but of course uh

you know all of these are you can also

see it in a more kind of abstract way

which is what is the purpose of my life

what is the purpose of my you know uh

the purpose of of of my job you know is

it just to make money but then why am I

making money if it's you know if I if I

want to have pleasure but then that

pleasure is serving what purpose exactly

there seems to be something in us which

is constantly let's say yearning and so

you could describe it in many ways you

could talk about the whole the

god-shaped hole in the human being and

that god-shaped ho is that Gap it's the

gap between the good that I perceive

even in intimation these higher Goods

that I perceive and my state of distance

between the two now the story of Genesis

is in my you know opinion is in my

perception the best way to understand

understand this Gap you know

because it is to become conscious of the

distance you could say that the the

knowledge of Good and Evil is in some

ways to become conscious of the Your

Existence in a kind of duality of inside

and outside a duality of me and the

purpose there's this duality of of of

the fact that I see the good and

identify myself in the place of bad and

now I have all of a sudden I'm in this

weird position where I have to cover

that distance and so this this it's the

act of self-consciousness itself which

is related to this problem of all of a

sudden seeing myself and seeing my

distance to the good that I am that I

pursuing and so the description of of

one of the facets of the description of

the fall in

Genesis is related to the

very a very desire to explain that

distance within us and to make it and to

help people understand that it's related

to self-consciousness it's related to

Duality it's related to the perception

of good purpose Telos reason and bad

which is distance sinfulness you know

the the missing the mark being far from

The Mark being far from the thing that

that I'm aiming at right it's the

distance between the two and this is of

course exactly described in Genesis

now the question is how do you uh cover

the Gap and this is of course what

Christ comes to show us but it's not a

very pleasant one at least at the outset

it doesn't seem very pleasant is that in

some ways we have to say yes to the

dying we we have to say yes to the state

of death that we're in yes in the sense

that we have to die on purpose instead

of dying per in you know on accident we

have to sacrifice everything towards the

aim that we have and that in that

sacrifice the suffering will become more

than suffering it will be a kind of

attractor a kind of thing that sucks us

into the good that we're aiming at and

and we will find a type

of joy in the suffering not a kind of

masochism not a enjoying of the

suffering but a joy in knowing that that

we

suffer in order to come closer to the

purpose that we're aiming at and that

definitely seems to be the the path that

Christ takes and the the path of the

Martyr you could say of course the

Martyr is an extreme version where all

of a sudden the Martyr has to all their

proximal goals all their little goals

right the goal of feeling my B belly the

goal of having a family the goal of

doing this and that and they end up

let's say being willing to suffer all

the lack of those little goals in order

to be able to reach the highest purpose

you know and then you realize that once

you realize that you realize that you do

that all the time actually that in fact

that structure of being willing to

suffer in purpose towards proximal goals

is something you do right that people

who train or people who learn to write

or people who learn anything when you're

learning you are suffering I mean it's

we have to be careful how we take this

suffering in the sense that we are we

are sacrificing our time and energy and

there's a kind of of a pain that is

submitted to a a higher purpose but if

we know what the higher purpose is and

we're moving in that higher purpose uh

you know with a kind of consciousness of

our solute of our situation which is a

consciousness of the distance between

the two then that suffering can be a

kind of joy and even the discipline of

learning something the kind of sacrifice

that you put into the higher things can

become a type of like a type of glory

and a type of joy and that's what we

ultimately see of course in the Martyr

as the ultimate example which is

everything his whole life everything

about them they're willing to sacrifice

and to give up all these proximal goals

in order to look at the highest goal uh

and you could say that in the fall of

the Garden of

Eden this is particularly true because

Adam and Eve when they eat the fruit of

the knowledge of Good and Evil they have

access to the tree of life and so they

perceive more far more before they ate

the fruit you know it's like they

couldn't see the tree of the of of life

this is of course the way it's presented

in St Ephraim the seran especially you

know that it was a kind of barrier for

the tree of life and once they took the

the the apple of the knowledge of Good

and Evil then they saw the good and then

they saw it from the position of

distance and then had to cover that

distance in pain and they refused to

suffer they refused to die at that

moment and that brought about the entire

Loop of human history and everything

about it but Jesus uh seems to show us a

different way but for sure what's

important to understand is is that the

very the image of the fall of course

there's a moral element to it you know

because we usually experience that in

moral in Morality terms like we see the

good that we want to do and then we

realize that we're not doing it and we

see the consequences of not doing it and

so we suffer from our sinfulness because

we can't get to the good we want you

know but this is true of everything it's

not just true of moral questions it's

true of all aspects

of of moving towards purpose every time

you move towards purpose you will have

that problem of the gap between where I

want to go and where I am and no matter

how much of a secularist you are even if

you refuse to accept the story version

the mythological imagery and the the

this the image of the falling of the

Angels because of Pride the image of the

taking of the fruit for for one self um

you still have to be able to account for

that and then that causes a problem

because usually what happens when people

don't try to account for it is they end

up being a a kind of critic of religion

critic of Christianity you know a Critic

of of of the religious aspect or Mor

moralistic aspect of the world while

ignoring their own position not knowing

that they are unconsciously perceiving

that good that's calling them and

they're using the light of that good to

criticize the failures of the current

the current models but uh but then they

don't try to account for that and they

don't try to make it part of their their

worldview and they don't have a way to

make it part of their worldview because

if we're just a bunch of random you know

whatever particles hitting each other

and that and there is no sense uh that

there is a structural relationship

between our state and what we're

perceiving as being

good then yeah then we're diluting

ourselves and so this I know this was a

little difficult but I've been thinking

about this for a long time so please

tell me if uh if this is clear in the

comment section I would love to see what

your thoughts are because I'm trying to

refine this argument obviously and then

hopefully you know if there are ways to

improve what I'm saying I will try to

take another path to this and try to get

it even clear and better but I'm really

on the edge of my thinking with this

this is this is really kind of pushing

my thinking as hard as I can and and you

know as as much to the edge as what as

what I can and so I thank you for your

attention I thank you for your support

and I will talk to all of you very soon

byebye