"Matter of Fact" ABC Australia

Summary

In this insightful discussion, Robyn D'Angelo explores the complexities of race and privilege, particularly from the perspective of white individuals. She challenges the notion of colorblindness and discusses how white people often lack awareness of their own racial advantages. D'Angelo emphasizes the importance of acknowledging and confronting these issues to dismantle systemic racism. She also addresses the damaging impact of white progressives who, despite their good intentions, often perpetuate racial inequality due to their ignorance and defensiveness. The conversation highlights the need for continuous self-education and critical thinking to foster a more equitable society.

Takeaways

• 📚 The script discusses the concept of white privilege and how it allows white individuals to perceive themselves as unique and universal, without acknowledging the societal advantages they hold.
• 🤔 It raises the question of why those with power might feel fragile, suggesting that it stems from a lack of accountability for the impact of systemic racism and a lack of experience in dealing with racial discomfort.
• 🌏 The speaker highlights the segregated lives many white people lead, which insulates them from witnessing the effects of racism and being held accountable for their role in perpetuating it.
• 🔍 The interviewee, Robyn D'Angelo, shares her personal journey of realizing her white privilege, which began when she started working closely with people of color and having open conversations about race.
• 💬 D'Angelo emphasizes the resistance and hostility she faced when trying to discuss race with other white people, pointing to a broader societal reluctance to engage in authentic conversations about racism.
• 📉 She argues that the way society teaches about racism is flawed, making it difficult for white people to truly understand it, and that overcoming this requires effort to educate oneself.
• 👥 D'Angelo notes that even though history has seen white anti-racist advocates, the majority of white people today are often defensive and uninformed about racism.
• 🚫 The script criticizes the idea of being colorblind, asserting that ignoring race does not address the real-world implications and perpetuates inequality.
• 💔 D'Angelo claims that white progressives can cause significant daily damage to people of color through their ignorance and inaction, potentially more so than overt racists due to their influence in institutions.
• 👎 She challenges the arrogance and certainty of white progressives who believe they are free of racism, urging them to examine their role in perpetuating racial inequality.
• 👶 The younger generation is described as ill-equipped to deal with race due to being raised with colorblind ideology, which may lead to obliviousness and further racial tension in the workplace.

Q & A

Why do white people not have to face the same racial questions as people of color?

White people often don't have to face racial questions due to their position in society, which allows them to see themselves as unique individuals outside of social forces and maintain their advantages and privileges without being held accountable for the impact of their systems or structures.

What does it mean for white people to feel 'fragile' in the context of race?

White people may feel fragile because they are not often held accountable for the impact of their actions or systems, and they have not had to build their capacity to bear the discomfort of being challenged across race.

How did Robyn D'Angelo's experience working with people of color change her perspective on race?

Working side by side with people of color allowed Robyn to see the world through a different lens, challenging her previous understanding and leading her to question what it means to be white in a deeply segregated and unequal society.

Why do white people often have uninformed opinions about race?

White people often have uninformed opinions about race because society does not provide them with good information about racism, and they may not put in the effort to educate themselves on the subject.

What is the 'cocoon' that Robyn D'Angelo refers to in the context of white people's racial experiences?

The 'cocoon' refers to the insular and comfortable racial atmosphere that white people often live in, which shields them from the realities and discomforts of racial inequality and challenges.

How does Robyn D'Angelo view the role of white progressives in perpetuating racial inequality?

Robyn argues that white progressives can cause significant daily damage to people of color because they often believe they are not part of the problem and thus do not address the subtle, daily acts of racism that contribute to an atmosphere of inequality.

What is the issue with the idea of being 'colorblind' in the context of race?

Being 'colorblind' is problematic because it ignores the very real meaning and impact of race in people's lives. It supports the structures that reproduce inequality by pretending that race does not matter, which is not reflective of the current reality.

Why does Robyn D'Angelo believe that the younger generation is not less racist than previous generations?

The younger generation, raised with colorblind ideology, is ill-equipped to understand the meaning of race in their lives, which leads to obliviousness that can inadvertently create a hostile atmosphere for people of color.

How does Robyn D'Angelo define 'daily damage' in relation to white progressives and people of color?

Daily damage refers to the ongoing, subtle acts of racism that white progressives may commit without realizing, which contribute to an atmosphere of inequality and frustration for people of color in their everyday lives.

What does Robyn D'Angelo suggest is necessary for white people to become effective advocates against racism?

White people need to develop critical thinking skills, build a capacity for uncomfortable self-examination, and be willing to engage with the realities of racism in order to become effective advocates for change.

Outlines

00:00

😔 White Privilege and Lack of Accountability

In this paragraph, Robyn D'Angelo discusses the inherent racial dynamics where white individuals often remain oblivious to the impact of their privilege due to societal structures that shield them from the consequences of racial inequity. She explains that white people can view themselves as unique individuals, free from social forces, while inadvertently maintaining their advantages. D'Angelo also touches on the defensiveness that arises when white individuals, who are rarely held accountable, feel their racial comfort is challenged, leading to a backlash to restore their perceived entitlements.

05:00

😠 The Paradox of White Progressives Causing Daily Damage

Robyn D'Angelo challenges the notion that the most harm to people of color comes from overt racists, instead arguing that white progressives often cause more pervasive daily harm due to their conviction that they are not part of the problem. She emphasizes the difficulty of addressing racism when individuals are resistant to acknowledging their role in perpetuating racial inequality. D'Angelo calls for a more critical examination of one's own complicity in systemic racism and the need to dismantle the arrogance and certainty that hinders progress.

10:04

🤔 The Myth of Colorblindness and Its Impact

In this segment, D'Angelo dismantles the myth of colorblindness, arguing that claiming not to see race is both dishonest and harmful. She points out that racial perceptions significantly affect life experiences and that ignoring race does not equate to racial equality. D'Angelo asserts that pretending race does not matter supports the structures that perpetuate inequality. She advocates for a future where noticing race does not imply inequality, but acknowledges that we are not there yet and that pretending otherwise is detrimental.

😞 The Unintended Consequences of Obliviousness in the Younger Generation

Robyn D'Angelo expresses concern over the younger generation's inability to understand the implications of race in their lives due to being raised with colorblind ideology. She shares her observations from working with tech companies, where young employees are often unaware of the struggles their colleagues of color face, leading to an oblivious atmosphere that exacerbates racial tension and inequality. D'Angelo emphasizes the importance of recognizing and addressing racial dynamics to create a more inclusive environment.

Keywords

💡Race

Race refers to a classification of humans into groups based on physical characteristics, social traits, and cultural backgrounds. In the video's context, it is a significant factor in people's lives that shapes their experiences and opportunities. The script discusses how white people often do not have to face the challenges associated with race, which is a privilege that people of color do not have.

💡White Privilege

White privilege is the societal advantages that white individuals have in a society where racial discrimination is prevalent. The video highlights that white people can often see themselves as unique individuals without considering the benefits they receive from societal structures, which allows them to maintain advantages in an inequitable society.

💡Racial Fragility

Racial fragility is the discomfort and defensiveness that some white people exhibit when discussing race and racism. The script mentions that privileged individuals, who are not held accountable for systemic impacts, may feel fragile when confronted with the reality of racial inequality.

💡Segregation

Segregation refers to the separation of people based on race, often enforced by societal norms or legal practices. The video discusses how deeply segregated lives can lead to a lack of awareness and empathy for the experiences of people of color, contributing to the maintenance of racial inequality.

💡Accountability

Accountability in the video's context means being responsible for one's actions and their impact on others, particularly in terms of racial dynamics. It is suggested that white individuals often avoid accountability for the pain and inequality caused by racial systems and structures.

💡Colorblind Ideology

Colorblind ideology is the belief that ignoring race will lead to racial equality. The script critiques this notion, arguing that it fails to acknowledge the real-world implications of race and perpetuates inequality by avoiding necessary discussions and actions to address racism.

💡Racism

Racism is the belief in the inherent superiority of one race over another, which often results in discrimination and prejudice. The video emphasizes the need for white individuals to educate themselves about racism and to challenge their own opinions and ignorance on the subject.

💡Advocacy

Advocacy in this context refers to actively supporting or promoting a cause, such as fighting against racial inequality. The video suggests that while white individuals have the potential to be important advocates against racism, they often fail to do so due to defensiveness and lack of understanding.

💡Uninformed Opinions

Uninformed opinions are views held without sufficient knowledge or understanding. The script points out that white people often have opinions about race that are uninformed because they have not made the effort to educate themselves about racism and its effects.

💡Institutional Racism

Institutional racism is the presence of racial discrimination within social and political institutions. The video discusses how even individuals who consider themselves progressive can contribute to or perpetuate racial inequality through the institutions they support or work within.

💡Daily Damage

Daily damage refers to the ongoing, everyday harm caused by racial inequality and discrimination. The script suggests that white progressives may cause more daily damage to people of color through their actions and attitudes than more overt forms of racism, simply because their impact is more pervasive and continuous.

Highlights

Robyn D'Angelo discusses the privilege and lack of awareness among white individuals in society.

White people often see themselves as unique individuals, oblivious to the social forces that shape their perspectives.

The benefits of white privilege include the ability to maintain advantages in an inequitable society.

White fragility arises from a lack of accountability for the impact of systemic racism.

Australian context is mentioned as deeply segregated, with white individuals often shielded from witnessing racism's effects.

White individuals feel entitled to their comfort and advantages, reacting negatively when these are challenged.

D'Angelo emphasizes the importance of white people recognizing their own sense of privilege.

She shares her personal journey of working with people of color and the eye-opening experiences it provided.

D'Angelo highlights the resistance and hostility she faced when discussing race with white individuals.

The transcript points out that white people often have uninformed opinions about racism due to societal ignorance.

D'Angelo argues that white progressives can cause daily damage to people of color through their actions and beliefs.

She challenges the notion that white progressives are less harmful than overt racists, emphasizing the subtle yet impactful damage they can cause.

The idea of being colorblind is critiqued as a way to avoid acknowledging the reality and impact of race in society.

D'Angelo discusses the younger generation's struggle with understanding race due to being raised with colorblind ideology.

She expresses concern that the younger generation is not less racist but may be ill-equipped to address racial issues.

D'Angelo concludes by emphasizing the need for white individuals to engage with and understand the experiences of people of color.

Transcripts

Robyn D'Angelo thank you so much for

giving us your time reading your book

and as a person of color myself I was

once again reminded of how race is such

a factor in our lives and how it poses

questions that people who were white

don't have to face why is that

well white people don't have to be aware

there are no consequences to our lack of

awareness in fact there are benefits you

know it allows us to see ourselves as

unique individuals you know outside of

you know the forces of socialization at

the same time it allows us to position

ourselves as just universal human

speaking from no particular perspective

and ultimately allows us to maintain our

advantages and our privileges within a

society that's inequitable across race

what you're saying then does raise the

question why would those who were

privileged why would those who have

power feel fragile well we are never

really held accountable for the impact

of our systems or structures you know

I've never really had to build my

capacity to bear the discomfort you know

of being challenged across race I'm

assuming it's very similar in the

Australian context we lived a deeply

segregated lives and I think in a lot of

ways being white is never really having

to bear witness to the pain of racism on

people of color and never being held

accountable for the pain that I

inadvertently caused people of color so

we kind of move through the world

through this very insular very

comfortable racial kind of atmosphere in

which we come to feel entitled to that

comfort and that advantage and so we

don't respond well when in any of that

is challenged it's as if it throws us

off our racial equilibrium and we lash

back in order to regain what we we think

is rightfully ours

right that something must be wrong if

you made me uncomfortable when you come

to write a book like they see you aware

of your own sense of privilege you

say in the book that white people often

have many opinions about race and that

those opinions are usually wrong how did

you unpack that yourself really it

happened when I began to work side by

side with people of color you know part

of being white as I could live my whole

life and be a fully educated adult and

really never work in any sustained

significant way or be in relationship

across race and I I was like a fish

being taken out of water and I began to

see the world through a very different

lens it kind of worked as a mirror if

you will right there experience was so

different from mine that while we tend

to focus on you know if we're gonna talk

about race let's talk about your

experience I began to see well then

what's my experience right well what

does it mean to be white in a society

that is deeply separate and unequal by

race and then in addition to having

those experiences with people of color

that incredible kind of gift of

relationship with them and in open

conversations with them I began to try

to talk to other white people and really

that's all you need to do and I was met

with so much resistance and hostility

and defensiveness and to be really

honest so much ignorance rate I mean yes

all white people have opinions about

racism but if you haven't really worked

hard to get good information those in

pinions just can't be informed because

nothing in society gives us good

information I mean you have to really

put effort into getting educated about

racism so I have opinions on lots of

things but that doesn't make them

informed right and there's a lot of

pressure on us not to have deep or

authentic conversations so all of that

kind of keeps us in this cocoon and

being in relationship and working side

by side with a lot of people color kind

of broke that open for me but but it's

an ongoing process because the forces to

come back into the cocoon if you will

are pretty strong you do make it clear

in the book that you're generalizing but

one of the points that you make is that

the way that we are taught about racism

makes it impossible for white people

to understand it is that really the case

because in history some of the greatest

anti-racist advocates some of the great

champions against racism some of the

great emancipation against slavery were

white people well I don't I don't think

you can avoid the messages of white

supremacy they circulate relentlessly

around us I think these were were were

more critical thinkers who probably had

relationships in their lives I mean the

fact that they risked their lives should

tell you the resistance they were up

against I'm not saying that no white

person does or could understand this

what I'm saying is the vast majority do

not and are pretty defensive about that

reality and that we need to begin to

think more critically and be willing to

build a capacity for pretty

uncomfortable examination and to process

if I didn't think white people could be

incredibly important advocates I

couldn't do what I do but all too often

we we fail at that and and very little

pushes us to kind of get back up and

keep going

there's something that you say in the

book I really wanted to drill down on

and you say it I believe that white

progressives caused the most damage to

people of color the most damage really

more than the racists of the Jim Crow

era of the United States more than those

who carried out lynchings in the United

States more than those of the alt-right

that we're seeing in America now the the

marches in in Charlottesville and

elsewhere that it is white progressives

who caused the most damage we'll keep in

mind that I said daily damage right so

all of the the people that you named I

mean those are extremes it does not mean

that they don't kind of create an

atmosphere of Terror for people of color

but the odds are in your daily life

you're not gonna run into an all-right

white nationalist who would be marching

in the streets you're gonna be dealing

with people like me and so I think the

reason people like me can be so

difficult in a daily

way is because we're so sure that we're

not the problem

we're so sure that really we're good to

go

and so we're not going to get racism on

the table I mean our institutions are

still reproducing racial inequality

regardless of how progressive I think I

am but if I think that I you know it's

not me I'm good to go

I'm gonna put my energy and just making

sure you know that I'm good to go right

I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you all my

evidence for why you know I'm free of

racism and so I'm trying to push against

that that arrogance and that certitude

right and and try to look at that kind

of more daily subtle things that create

an atmosphere that so often can be so

hostile and that can cause people of

color to go home from work you know

every day feeling frustrated and feeling

like well it's better to endure these

slights then try to speak back against

them in the book you talk about this

idea of people being colorblind of not

seeing color people who say that race

does not matter what's wrong with that

is that not what people should be aiming

for well first of all who do they say

that to nobody ever says it to me

they only we only say it when we want to

make sure that you know that I don't

notice your race right so it's just

patently not true maybe they'll go the

next step and say well of course I

noticed it but it has no meaning

it does have meaning it does have

meaning and and there are so much

empirical evidence that racial

perceptions are going to change you know

affect a people's life experiences so we

don't live in the spiritual world or you

know we we haven't come to a place where

race doesn't matter and so to pretend as

if we are in a place for race doesn't

matter is to basically hold inequality

in place I mean I'd like to get to a

world in which I don't notice your race

or if I do it has no meaning but that's

not the world we live in right now and

jumping over and pretending we're there

is only going to support the structures

that are continually reproducing

inequality

Robin I just want to finish on something

else you said in the book and you were

asked about the future and about the

younger generation and you say that they

are in fact becoming more racists are

you pessimistic about the future do you

see some improvement and in what way is

it that the younger generation is not

less racist than previous generations

what we're seeing is a generation that

was raised with this kind of colorblind

ideology and they are completely

ill-equipped to grapple with the meaning

of race in their lives so I've had the

opportunity lately to work with a lot of

tech companies and very very young

people I think the average age is is

under 30 and when we have these

dialogues they are just dumbfounded when

they hear the pain that there are very

few co-workers of color are in and how

how much their co-workers of color are

putting up with and navigating they have

no idea but they're having no idea is

not benign right they're obliviousness

has created an atmosphere that is taking

a really really high toll on the few

people that are there in their workplace

you know if I cannot tell you what it

means to be white if I have no idea I'm

not really gonna be able to hold the

experience of what it means not to be

white right I'm not even gonna be able

to engage with that and I'm probably

gonna end up minimizing it and

invalidating that because I I just want

to pretend that nothing's going on

because that's how it works for me

Robyn D'Angelo thank you again for

giving us your time

you