Dr. Edwin Bryant - Finding Krishna

Summary

The speaker reflects on their spiritual journey in the late 70s, beginning with a vague Buddhist inclination and a deep prayer for existential guidance. They recount their unexpected arrival in Vrindavan, India, where they were deeply moved by the devotion of local practitioners. Despite initial cultural and aesthetic jarring, the speaker found themselves drawn to the Bhakti tradition, particularly Krishna consciousness, and its teachings, which they credit for setting them on a clear spiritual path, even as they navigated institutional challenges and personal growth.

Takeaways

• 🌟 The speaker reminisces about the 1960s and 1970s when people were more committed to spiritual practices like moving into ashrams, which contrasts with the modern, more consumer-driven approach to spirituality.
• 🏡 The speaker notes a shift from full-time commitment to ashrams to a more casual, lay practitioner approach at home, suggesting a commodification and absorption into consumer culture.
• 🧘‍♂️ Despite the changes, the speaker believes that genuine spiritual seekers can still find what they are looking for, even if it's not as prominent as in the past.
• 🚂 The speaker describes a journey to India, initially with vague spiritual intentions, and the unexpected experiences that led to a deeper spiritual awakening.
• 🌞 The vividness and intensity of the spiritual practices in India, such as the use of deities and colors, initially felt jarring to the speaker, highlighting the cultural and aesthetic differences.
• 🚌 The speaker recounts a pivotal moment of boarding a bus to Vrindavan without any clear intention, suggesting a sense of being led by a higher power or destiny.
• 🙏 The speaker was deeply moved by the devotion and surrender of the devotees in Vrindavan, which attracted him more than the theological aspects initially.
• 📚 The speaker acknowledges the influence of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's books in providing a clear and authentic spiritual tradition, despite some cultural biases in the teachings.
• 🌐 The speaker reflects on the importance of sincerity and humility in spiritual pursuits, recognizing that true spiritual growth requires surrender and grace.
• 🌌 The speaker discusses the concept of theism and the belief in a higher intelligence behind the order of the universe, which has been a consistent belief throughout his spiritual journey.
• 🌱 The speaker's journey from being a skeptic to embracing a spiritual path shows a transformation that was driven by a deep internal sincerity and a desire for existential guidance.

Q & A

What was the speaker's initial perception of spiritual practices in the West?

The speaker felt that spiritual practices in the West were not as intense or committed as they were in the 1960s. He mentioned that people were moving into ashrams full-time during that period, but now it's more about lay practitioners at home, which he believes has become more commodified and absorbed into consumer culture.

Why did the speaker feel the need to go to India?

The speaker felt the need to go to India to seek a more authentic and intense spiritual experience that he believed was lacking in the West. He wanted to put together his own spiritual journey and find a higher level of commitment and practice.

What was the speaker's initial reaction to the visual and auditory aspects of the spiritual practices he encountered in India?

The speaker found the vividness of the deities, colors, and the loudspeakers playing music to be a bit jarring at first. He was not used to the aesthetic of the spiritual practices in India, which was very different from what he had experienced in the West.

How did the speaker end up in Vrindavan?

The speaker ended up in Vrindavan after getting off a train and boarding a bus without any clear intention or knowledge of where it was going. He described this as a mysterious and possibly mystical experience, as he had no recollection of deciding to get on the bus.

What was the speaker's initial impression of the Krishna devotees in Vrindavan?

The speaker was initially attracted to the Krishna devotees by their intensity, conviction, and happiness. He saw them as completely and utterly immersed in their spiritual practice, which he found compelling and attractive.

How did the speaker's perception of the Krishna tradition change over time?

The speaker's perception of the Krishna tradition evolved from being initially unattracted and skeptical to becoming deeply involved and committed. He was drawn to the devotees' sincerity and the intensity of their practice, which he found to be what he was seeking.

What was the speaker's experience with the Iscon movement and how did it influence his spiritual journey?

The speaker's experience with the Iscon movement was mixed. He appreciated the teachings of Srila Prabhupada and the authenticity of the Krishna bhakti tradition but also acknowledged the corruption and institutionalization that he observed within the movement. Despite these issues, he still considers Prabhupada to be one of his gurus.

How did the speaker's understanding of bhakti yoga and surrender evolve during his time in India?

The speaker's understanding of bhakti yoga and surrender deepened during his time in India. He came to appreciate the total and utter humility and helplessness required in bhakti, and he saw this in the devotees he met. This experience helped him to understand the importance of grace and the need for sincere prayer.

What were the speaker's thoughts on the role of reason in his spiritual journey?

The speaker believed that reason was a guide but not the ultimate arbitrator of his spiritual journey. He understood that reason alone could not provide him with the spiritual fulfillment he was seeking, and he was prepared to bypass reason in pursuit of a deeper spiritual experience.

How did the speaker's experience in India shape his views on theism and the existence of a higher intelligence?

The speaker's experience in India reinforced his belief in theism and the existence of a higher intelligence. He saw the order in the universe as evidence of an intelligent designer and felt that this belief was more satisfying than alternatives such as eternalism or self-assembly.

Outlines

00:00

🌏 Spiritual Quest in the West and India

The speaker reflects on the spiritual movements of the 1960s and 1970s, noting the intense commitment of people who joined ashrams and the subsequent commercialization of spirituality. They mention their own journey, initially identifying as a Buddhist and feeling a disconnect with the vibrant colors and deities of Hinduism. The narrative includes their decision to travel to India in search of a deeper spiritual experience, which led to a transformative train ride and an unexpected encounter with a bus that changed the course of their journey.

05:00

🚌 A Mysterious Bus Ride to Vrindavan

The speaker recounts a seemingly mystical experience of boarding a bus without knowing its destination, ending up in Vrindavan. They describe their initial lack of knowledge about Krishna or bhakti, and their skepticism towards the garish appearance of Krishna devotees they had seen in the West. However, after spending time in a Krishna temple and witnessing the intense devotion of the followers, they were drawn to the community. The speaker emphasizes the sincerity and humility required in bhakti, and how they were moved by the devotees' complete surrender and happiness.

10:02

🙏 The Theist's Perspective on Divine Intelligence

The speaker delves into their theistic beliefs, arguing that the order of the universe implies the existence of an intelligent creator. They discuss the persistence of theistic arguments through various philosophical and scientific developments, including the Big Bang theory. The narrative shifts to a personal account of their deep prayer and sincerity during a bus ride in India, where they felt a profound connection to a higher power. This experience led them to Vrindavan and a deeper understanding of bhakti, emphasizing the importance of grace and surrender in spiritual growth.

15:04

🌟 Embracing Bhakti and the Krishna Tradition

The speaker shares their journey of embracing bhakti yoga and the Krishna tradition, despite initial skepticism and the challenges of institutionalization within the movement. They highlight the importance of personal experience over reason in their spiritual quest and the transformative impact of meeting sincere devotees. The speaker acknowledges the influence of Srila Prabhupada's teachings and books, which provided a clear and authentic spiritual path, despite some cultural biases of the time. They express a continued connection to the Krishna tradition, appreciating the potency of Prabhupada's teachings in making millions of devotees.

Keywords

💡Ashrams

Ashrams are spiritual retreats or hermitages in Indian culture, often associated with a specific religious tradition or teacher. In the video's context, ashrams symbolize the spiritual movement of the 1960s where individuals sought a deeper connection with spirituality and often lived in these communities full-time. The speaker reflects on the difference between the intense commitment of the past and the modern, more consumer-driven approach to spirituality.

💡60s Guru

The term '60s Guru refers to spiritual leaders who gained prominence during the 1960s, particularly in the West. These gurus often attracted followers who were part of the counterculture movement and were seeking alternative lifestyles and spiritual enlightenment. The script mentions the impact these gurus had on people moving into ashrams and their influence on the spiritual landscape of the time.

💡Krishna

Krishna is a deity worshipped across many traditions within Hinduism and is a central figure in the Bhagavad Gita. In the script, Krishna represents the specific spiritual tradition the speaker eventually becomes involved with. The mention of Krishna ashrams and the subsequent experiences of the speaker are integral to understanding their spiritual journey.

💡Commodification

Commodification refers to the process by which something that was previously not for sale or not purely seen as a good in economic terms is transformed into something that is treated as a commodity. In the context of the video, the speaker discusses how spirituality has become commodified, suggesting that it has been absorbed into consumer culture rather than being a deeply committed practice.

💡Buddhist

The term 'Buddhist' refers to someone who follows the spiritual tradition of Buddhism, which emphasizes the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path. The speaker mentions being 'vaguely thinking' they were a Buddhist, indicating an initial interest or leaning towards Buddhism before encountering the Krishna tradition.

💡Agra

Agra is a city in northern India, famous for the Taj Mahal, and is a common tourist destination. In the script, the speaker's mention of Agra represents a moment of touristic interest, contrasting with their spiritual quest and highlighting the tension between seeking spiritual enlightenment and the pull of cultural attractions.

💡Matra

Matra, in this context, refers to Mathura, a city in northern India that is significant in Hinduism as the birthplace of Krishna. The speaker's unexpected stop in Mathura, following the advice of locals, becomes a pivotal moment in their spiritual journey, leading them to the Krishna tradition.

💡Bhakti Yoga

Bhakti Yoga is a path of spiritual practice within Hinduism that focuses on the loving devotion and worship of a personal deity. The speaker describes the deep commitment and surrender of the devotees they encountered, which was a form of Bhakti Yoga, and how it attracted them to the spiritual path they eventually chose.

💡Theology

Theology is the study of the nature of God and religious beliefs. The script mentions the speaker's initial unfamiliarity with the theology of the Krishna tradition. Over time, they came to understand and accept the theological aspects of the tradition, despite initial skepticism.

💡Grace

Grace, in a spiritual context, refers to unmerited divine assistance or the free and unearned favor of God. The speaker talks about the necessity of grace for spiritual progress and their understanding that sincerity and humility attract divine grace, which played a significant role in their spiritual awakening.

💡Hippie Culture

Hippie Culture emerged in the 1960s and was characterized by a countercultural movement that rejected mainstream society's values. The speaker identifies with this culture, mentioning their training in the lifestyle, which included a willingness to sleep on the floor and embrace experiences that were part of their spiritual quest.

💡Sri Prabhupada

Sri Prabhupada, or A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, was the founder of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON). The speaker acknowledges his influence and the impact of his teachings, despite never meeting him personally, highlighting the importance of his writings in shaping their spiritual understanding.

Highlights

The speaker reflects on the shift in spiritual practices from the 1960s to the present, noting a decrease in full-time commitment to ashrams and a commodification of spirituality.

The 1960s saw an intense commitment to spiritual gurus and ashrams, with people moving into Krishna and Shivananda ashrams, a trend that has since diminished.

The speaker's personal journey began with a vague Buddhist inclination and an openness to spiritual exploration, leading to a trip to India.

The vividness and aesthetic of Indian deities initially felt jarring to the speaker, contrasting with their initial Western spiritual exposure.

An unexpected encounter with a slow train and the decision to visit Agra led to a chance recommendation to visit Vrindavan, a significant spiritual place.

The speaker's experience of being a Westerner in India in the late 1970s was marked by curiosity from locals and a lack of modern technology.

A sincere recommendation from locals led the speaker to disembark at Mathura, despite initial reluctance and a mosquito-ridden night.

The speaker's decision to board a bus to Vrindavan without knowing its destination or having any intention to stay reflects a sense of surrender to fate.

Arriving in Vrindavan and staying for four years, the speaker was initially unattracted to Krishna devotion but was eventually drawn to the intensity and happiness of the devotees.

The speaker's spiritual journey was marked by a deep prayer for guidance and a recognition of higher intelligence, reflecting a theistic worldview.

The speaker's encounter with devotees in Vrindavan was a turning point, leading to a deep commitment to the Krishna tradition despite cultural and institutional challenges.

The speaker acknowledges the impact of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's teachings, despite some cultural and historical limitations.

The speaker's experience with the Krishna tradition was transformative, leading to a lifelong connection with the tradition and its practices.

The speaker discusses the importance of sincerity and humility in attracting divine grace, a key aspect of the bhakti yoga tradition.

The speaker's spiritual journey was not without skepticism, but an openness to experience and a readiness to bypass reason led to a profound transformation.

The speaker reflects on the challenges of institutionalization within the Krishna tradition and the importance of maintaining spiritual authenticity.

The speaker's narrative emphasizes the power of personal experience and the role of grace in spiritual awakening, beyond theological understanding.

Transcripts

yeah but you know i mean you know the

there were teachers that came to the

west i think i think the seeds are here

in the west you don't you know that i

mean there are ashrams here there are

yeah but not the same as the 60s and the

60s people would ma were moving into

these ashrams full time into krishna

ashrams into shivananda ashrams into

these you know siddha yoga ashrams

when these big sort of 60s guru came

came over there was this kind of intense

commitment you don't see that anymore

not in that level i'll just see a bit of

it but i mean

now we kind of lay practitioners at home

it's become more commodified maybe more

or

just been absorbed into consumer culture

even even yogis you know really with our

yoga mats on one hand and starbucks and

cup of coffee in the other you know so

in a sense you know

but yeah that you can still find it that

you know still there and certainly the

60s 70s and and and i knew i had to go

to india just to seek that just to sort

of put all that together

um

but yeah yeah you know the bus was um uh

you know so i was going from i was i was

vaguely thinking i was a buddhist

because i hadn't i didn't really think i

was a buddhist but i was kind of still

the buddhist thing and i was heading i

did yeah i didn't hadn't run into

anything i found it wasn't a tiny bit

jarring at first you know the big the

all-agari

deities and you know the the you know

the oranges and the blues and the

yellows and the and the durgas and the

hanumans and the very the the the

vividness of it all was a tiny bit uh

jarring aesthetically

of course they add these speakers

remember they get a bit of a loud like

the food has been blasting on the

crackling speakers

so anyway then then i i'm sitting on

this train

and i actually i'm going to see the

title i'm a bit ashamed of myself

because i'm thinking i'm not here to be

a tourist but oh why the hell let me

just you know the train was sort of so i

thought i'd go to agra i might as well

you know just have a look

and and and the train was a really slow

one you know i hadn't actually taken a

lot of trains and i i didn't realize

that a passenger train is at that time

stops at every tree yeah right

you don't want to take a few days

two hour journey now it's all a bit

different but you have to get expressed

well i haven't quite you know figured

that out at that early point but i'm

getting on the right side i'm getting

i'm on this train you know people in the

compartment at that time they've never

seen seen westerners before we're

talking about you know 78 79.

so even tvs i mean obviously they were

there but no peeps not that everybody

had a tv there might be one tv in a

whole street and people would come

around and have a look at whatever was

on you know so it was early days

you know still bullet bullocks and and

plows there would not be very few

tractors you know

it changed very fast

at that time you stole it was still very

much the end of that kind of we might

call it medieval whatever you want to

call it but pre you know obviously

technology was there there was only one

car the ambassador car a couple of cars

they weren't all now all the cars you

see no there was the

chunky unhappy you know

but anyway so i'm sitting on the you

know chatting and you know i'm like some

some sort of a weird mix between a

hippie and a sadhu right because i i

hadn't really

situated myself in a tradition at that

point so i was just putting it all

together

from my own in make-believe ideas

and um

and the people were saying

oh and i was telling him it was a

spiritual quest and i was looking for

truth and i you know and and i was never

going to go back to the west and i was

just i had no money and i was just

traveling and

and they said oh you have to get down to

mata mata matra oh yeah it's a big

spiritual place get down get done i'm i

i you know i never heard of mothra over

in darwin right when mothra being the

train station for vrindav in his matra

yeah so but they were so sincere and the

train was taking so long and i would you

know didn't have anything better to do

so i got down at the mantra i just got

down off the train i don't i didn't have

a ticket or anything

and so

um back then you know you know collect

to come and i just say

collector never seen a westerner say i

would just say and i was learning hindi

so i would say best i could you know

yeah

right and so yeah

you could do that back then so anyway um

it got down on the in on matra

and i you know stepped under a tree

because you know i didn't have any money

and i just remember what

what an awful place why does everybody

was built rich because it's near the

train station right

of any train station it's a bit you know

so there it was just i got bitten to

death by mosquito it was awful night so

then i get up i think that was a bad

idea i should have just stayed on the

train so i'm going to get back on the

train and then this bus comes and that's

why i think what you're talking about

and this bus comes

and this is this was very this is

strange and i'm not going to go so far

as to say it was mystical

but it

but i but honestly

i had no idea where the bus was going i

had no reason to get on the bus i had no

intention of staying there

all i remember and i have a clear maybe

now after 50 years or whatever it is

my mind is making parts of this up i

don't know all i can say is

i and and this was the case even

five years after i i'm still saying

saying the same story that i'm telling

you now so it's not just time because i

had the i have the same

recollection of it much much closer to

you know a few years after it

i remembered seeing the bus

not having any reason to pay attention

to it's just a bus coming down the road

my next memory i'm sitting on the back

of the bus

and i had there's nothing in between

there was no conscious deliberation you

know what why would i want to get on

this bus where is it going why

not i was going to get back on the train

i'm sitting on the back of the bus and

it's going to grind around

so i there might be something a little

mystical about it or maybe i'm just

maybe i'm just

fuzzy in the memory but that that's the

story i have to share you know i'm

sitting on the back of the bus that's

all i can remember bus goes to brynden

and that was it i stayed there for four

years

i got off the bus you knew what was that

you knew what was happening nothing

nothing

knew nothing right i didn't know

anything about you know krishna or

bhakti i had not not even in my dabbling

uh in the west right i was reading more

of these kind of hippy dippy type of

things like siddhartha and carlos

castanedas i was reading that kind of

druggy things you know and right

drug you know druggy sort of

spirituality but not not uh not nothing

like embedded in a real tradition or i

knew nothing about krishna i'd seen

krishnas in

in the streets in the oxford street you

know and they just they look like a

raggedy bunch of you know i was

fascinated by them i

it you know i i was quite happy to be as

extreme as that but it didn't it didn't

attract me

at that time yeah i didn't find that

attractive it seemed a little

garish and a little in your face and a

little

slightly you know it wasn't very elegant

it wasn't it didn't they didn't have any

i just didn't find it very attractive

what can i tell you aesthetically then

you know banging away on symbols and

and so what changed your mind then when

you've gone about off the bus what what

changed my mind is i got you know i did

spend some time in the krishna temple

there

and watched having no money and having a

place to sleep that wasn't you know kind

of full of mosquitoes that wasn't a

problem because you know hippie culture

i'd already had a little bit of training

you know just being a hippie you know

for if you know

and you're young

you're young you're you think how'd we

at this point i would have been 21 or 21

i guess

right

so yeah yeah that's all right sleep on

the floor and get bitten a bit when

you're that age yeah that's all it's all

a big yeah i mean yeah

i'm in india i mean i was just like

blown away here i am i mean india i mean

that was just a walk down the streets

just feeling wow i'm here

you know

so what attracted me

or was

the intensity of the devotees they had

completely and utter given up everything

well i had two perhaps but they would

completely and utterly immersed with

full conviction

in this tradition and i said and they

were happy they were detached

they were blissful

they were just totally devoted they were

convinced they had everything i wanted

and i i so it was the devotees that

attracted me

initially not the theology theology and

it's a mix of indians and westerners

at that time there were westerners in

that yeah it was a mix but at that time

there were westerners that used you know

not not that stopped you know within a

few years but there were people like me

that were coming in at the tail end of

the 70s uh in the 70s and they were just

hippies some of them had met krishnas in

the west

and you know wanted to come to the site

place of origin and they were hippies by

disposition and maybe they were heading

over to india anyway but they knew

something about krishna and they thought

you know that was one of their stopovers

so they might have been that sort of

person there

and but they're

but i i was probably unique and i

totally and utterly stumbled there i

didn't even know i never heard of brenda

when i literally

got off the train just because these

people were so sincere i just didn't

want to disappoint them as aurora get

down you know

so yeah so that you know i like to think

i was i was called but one other thing

part of the story though

um adam

is when i was up in dharansala and i

knew that this is not my spiritual home

i remember sitting on the bus

and i

and i can remember with the the most

intensity

and i understood there's something

higher than myself so in that sense i've

always been a theist

and i've always you know i mean the

theistic argument has always been

whether it's modern-day intelligent

design whether it's ramanuja in the 12th

century commenting on vedanta the basics

and whether it's nyaya the logicians the

basic position of the theist is that

there must be intelligence behind the

order of the universe so that argument's

never going to go anywhere whatever

discovery science comes up with whatever

they go into string theory and then some

spring theory and whatever they end up

with there is always going to be a space

there's always going to be that you know

how does this all come to be how is this

highly intricate structured there must

be intelligence so i

that that

why just the question why

because of order

because that seems like for a certain

type of thinker like myself and theists

and and probably majority of human

thinkers

they're then the explanation for order

that it's it's it it's a more satisfying

explanation to say there must be

intelligence behind order rather than to

say order just is or order self

assembles

right which you'd have to say if you

accept a big bang model because right

because before big bang the greek

thinkers and materialistic thinkers

would thought that the world just was

eternal so you didn't have to deal with

causal explanations you don't have to

say what caused it if you say it's

eternal so the greek all the greek

philosophers thought it was eternal and

and that was a problem for christians up

until big bang because christians you

know the bible talks about creatiox

nihilo

but materialists could say why are you

looking for causal explanations it just

was but with big bang

now you have a

you know we now you have

we can't talk about a moment in time

because before big bang there was no

time but nonetheless you have um a

moment let's just say that and then and

now you have to so now you have a much

more pressing question but why what what

are the

circumstances and

circumstances surrounding that moment

but anyway

irrespective of any of that

so intelligence

strikes

theistic mind as being a better

explanation than then no they're no

intelligence that like that things

either self-order or or that they're

eternal and there is no cause

i i don't know why we're taking this uh

this time oh you're on the bus you're in

the bus in the north of india and i knew

that there was a higher intelligence

right

right

and i deeply deeply deeply prayed more

deep it was a deep right right yeah

that's what i remember yeah

whatever it is whoever you know please

help me please help right seeking truth

and i and i knew i couldn't find it with

my own

mental

and i knew i wasn't really going to find

it in some book or some theology you

know i mean i knew that it had to be

i would had to be grace i think i

understood that there had to be grace

and i i didn't know then but i but now

i've come to understand that if you're

really really sincere you get that grace

so i was actually sincere

looking at it now that was a deeply

sincere moment deeply sincere

and the other thing the other thing

about bhakti is total and utter humility

and helplessness

right all the ramanuja's you know the

theologians talk about this we were just

reading chaitanya the other day more

humble in a blade of grass you know

that's when we attract the attention the

grace of bhagavan so i didn't know any

of that and then now i'm just i've been

imposing that though

right now but i was in a deep deep place

of utter helplessness utter sincerity

utter prayer but from a place of plea

just not asking for anything other than

existential guidance

and we didn't and and and that was and

within 10 days i was in brindavan with

all that what i just said

number one

another reason to get off that train

number two i'm i'm finding myself on the

back of a bus number three when i get to

in vrindavan everyone's saying

and next thing i end up in this krishna

temple that had no attraction to that i

had no you know i wasn't no connection

with

and there i met the devotees and that

that then i instantly

saw

that that's what i want that level and

you weren't skeptical i suppose i mean

because i i assume i mean for me meeting

at least what we call the harry krishnas

in london i had i had that rational

training you know and i had that that

skeptical mind that i brought to it

right i couldn't let go i couldn't give

over to to believe i mean you saw they

were happy i saw also those people are

happy and you just kind of think

i thought yeah are they kidding

themselves right yeah

like something holds me back for i

didn't jump in yeah yeah well i i think

maybe the difference there was i was

already committed to giving my life up

to it so i was prepared to bypass reason

i i i'd understood reason was not going

to give me what i was looking for so i'd

unders i don't i'd come to a place where

you know philosophy and philosophizing

and all these so-called great yeah they

are not they cannot help me on what i

want so i knew i that reason was my

guide but wasn't going to be the

ultimate arbitrator of what i thought

so therefore i was looking for

experience and i was ready to get like

the hitchhike to india with nothing no

money and spend months and all of the

adventures and dangers and so forth

so when i so when i saw that they were

experiencing what i was seeking

the theology took a while to sink in i

was it was bloody weird mate like god

with the flu and blue why can't it be

pink with a banjo you know i mean

okay the reason i mean it's not that i

get got rid of reason that they took a

while for all that to sink in and they

still i mean of course i i didn't stay

with the krishnas that was my starting

you know that i owe my spiritual life i

feel

to that experience

and i stayed in the ass room for for a

few years in the city

so i i definitely feel i mixed feelings

you know because i certainly got

a real real start to my spiritual

journey there but you know the astronaut

became all embroiled with

institutionalization all right so at a

certain point i i had to leave you know

it wasn't my home anymore

but um

but the devotees back then they really

really in the 60s and 70s and even to

the 80s even um

that was the real thing they were

whatever may have been going on in the

higher uh

echelons of the institution and the

corruption and the whole guru egos and

all the

devotees were really surrendered they

were performing bhakti yoga in the

deepest possible way

they would surrender to the you know to

their to bhagavan they were engaging in

incredible tapas

austerities and they you know they were

given everything everything nobody owned

this was sri prabhupada's still there

no he just left i missed him by a year

and a half

right i'm kind of glad that i did in a

sense because

um

you know i'm kind of a guy old school if

you kind of give your word you you sort

of stick to it so if i had to take an

initiation from prabhupada i probably

would have felt

moral or a spiritual

to stay in it

but the fact that i didn't and that you

know that i didn't feel any any

compulsions about leaving it when the

time was right to leave it but um no i

never met him but you know i i still

consider him to be

one of my gurus even though i never met

him because

his books

really really you know i was just a

hippie reading siddhartha right and then

just stumbling about but the books

really gave me clear tradition based

authentic in this in a sense of lineage

basically sort of a sense um guys so

even though there's some somewhat

corruption and and disappointment around

the iscon movement you still think

prabhapad is it has integrity and no

question yeah right i mean you know he

said a lot of things in his books that i

that one shudders at now you know he was

in the sense that in cultural sense in

the culture yes

he was a male brahmin of the turn of the

19th you know the 19th 20th century so

or he had what we now are now call you

know certain sexist

certain elitists certain castes types of

um you know that was just his cultural

mindset but

you know one has to be mature about that

and and situate him in his time but

if you can push all that aspect aside

the actual krishna bhakti is

that's i mean he made millions of

devotees

so

that there is a potency in that in that

aspect of his teaching so

if people you know if i don't really

read his books and i mean nowadays i you

know it's been many many decades since i

really read those books but they

they did they trigger and i remained

within the krishna tradition

other branches of that and you're still

in that now right still in that you're

still connected