Is the World Today as Dangerous as 40 Years Ago? | Working Capital

Summary

Linda Thomas-Greenfield, the US Ambassador to the United Nations, recounts her experiences during the Rwandan genocide, where a personal connection with an armed young man saved her life. She discusses her diplomatic philosophy, 'gumbo diplomacy,' emphasizing the importance of building relationships through shared experiences. Thomas-Greenfield reflects on the evolving challenges of global diplomacy, the importance of US leadership, and the complexities of addressing crises in regions like Gaza and Sudan. She also shares her personal journey from a segregated upbringing to becoming a top diplomat, highlighting the potential for positive change through collective efforts.

Takeaways

• 🔫 During the Rwanda genocide, Linda Thomas-Greenfield had a life-threatening encounter with a young man armed with a gun, but they ended up having a friendly conversation.
• 🌍 Linda Thomas-Greenfield has served in various foreign service postings globally, including Pakistan, Kenya, and Jamaica, and as Assistant Secretary of State for African Affairs in the Obama administration.
• 🏆 The interview took place in the Ralph J. Bunche Library, named after the Nobel Peace Prize laureate known for his work mediating on Palestine.
• 🍲 Thomas-Greenfield practices 'gumbo diplomacy,' using cooking, particularly making gumbo, to foster comfortable and open conversations.
• 📺 The rapid spread of information via 24-hour news and social media has significantly changed the nature of diplomacy and reporting.
• 🕊️ Thomas-Greenfield believes the world is dealing with different but persistent security issues and highlights the ongoing crises in places like Sudan and Gaza.
• 🎓 She emphasizes the importance of education and opportunities, sharing personal stories of her parents' educational struggles and achievements.
• 👩‍👧‍👦 Concerned about the future, she worries about the impact of climate change on the next generation, including her grandchildren.
• 🇺🇸 Despite challenges, she remains confident in the strength of American democracy and its global leadership role.
• 🌍 She acknowledges the skepticism about US foreign policy, especially regarding Israel, but stresses the ongoing efforts to negotiate peace and support a two-state solution.

Q & A

Who was Linda Thomas-Greenfield and what notable position did she hold?

Linda Thomas-Greenfield is a veteran diplomat who served as the US Ambassador to the United Nations.

What experience did Thomas-Greenfield recount from her time in Rwanda during the genocide?

Thomas-Greenfield recounted an experience where a young man pointed a gun at her, and she told him her name to make it matter to him. They ended up having a friendly conversation.

What is 'gumbo diplomacy' as explained by Thomas-Greenfield?

Gumbo diplomacy is a method where Thomas-Greenfield uses cooking, specifically making gumbo, to make people comfortable and facilitate difficult conversations.

What significant changes in diplomacy did Thomas-Greenfield note since she started her career?

Thomas-Greenfield noted the rapid spread of information due to social media and 24-hour news as significant changes, contrasting with the slower communication methods of the past.

Why does Thomas-Greenfield believe Sudan struggles to gain international attention?

She believes Sudan struggles to gain attention due to crisis burnout among the international community and because it is located in Africa, which often requires raising the flag higher to get attention.

What was Thomas-Greenfield’s emotional response to her duties, such as vetoing a ceasefire resolution?

Thomas-Greenfield described herself as very emotional, finding her duties, including vetoing a ceasefire resolution, emotionally taxing.

What future vision did Thomas-Greenfield express for resolving the Israel-Palestine conflict?

Thomas-Greenfield expressed a vision of a two-state solution where Palestinians have their own country and Israelis live in security and peace.

What is Thomas-Greenfield’s perspective on the US's role and reputation in global diplomacy?

She believes that US leadership is always needed and respected at the table, even if there is sometimes disagreement with US policies.

How did Thomas-Greenfield’s upbringing influence her career and views on democracy?

Growing up in the segregated South and seeing her mother vote for the first time influenced her belief that the first chapter of life does not define the last chapter and reinforced her confidence in democracy.

What keeps Thomas-Greenfield up at night regarding future global challenges?

Thomas-Greenfield is concerned about the future impacts of climate change on the next generation and worries about what the world will be like in 10 years.

Outlines

00:00

😲 Face-to-Face with Danger in Rwanda

Linda Thomas-Greenfield recalls a harrowing experience during the Rwandan genocide, where she faced a young man with a gun. She told him her name, hoping it would humanize her and make him remember her if he killed her. They ended up having a friendly conversation, and she saw him again days later at a roadblock. This experience underscores the power of personal connection even in dire circumstances.

05:03

🤝 Gumbo Diplomacy: Building Relationships Through Cooking

Linda explains her concept of 'gumbo diplomacy,' where cooking and sharing meals helps build relationships and ease difficult conversations. She describes how preparing gumbo with others creates comfort and opens dialogue, making it a useful diplomatic tool. She shares examples of how this approach has worked in various settings, emphasizing the importance of personal connections in diplomacy.

10:03

🌍 Changes in Global Diplomacy Over Four Decades

Reflecting on her 40-year career, Linda discusses the evolution of diplomacy, highlighting the impact of 24-hour news cycles and social media on the speed of information dissemination. She compares past and present challenges, noting that while the nature of security issues has changed, the complexity and urgency remain. She stresses the importance of context and analysis that embassies provide, which is often missing from media reports.

15:04

📢 Sounding the Alarm: Crisis Attention and Advocacy

Linda addresses the difficulty of attracting attention to crises like the situation in Sudan, citing multiple concurrent global crises and a perceived bias against African issues. She shares her experiences of advocating for Sudan and Gaza, highlighting the emotional toll and the balancing act required in diplomatic communications. Despite criticisms, she defends the US's efforts to negotiate peace and the importance of continued leadership.

20:06

🌐 Upholding US Leadership Amid Global Skepticism

Linda speaks about the challenges of maintaining a positive global image of the US, especially after the Trump administration and ongoing conflicts. She emphasizes the need for actions to speak louder than words and the importance of continued engagement and leadership. She reflects on her personal journey and commitment to democracy, stressing the importance of providing hope and ensuring future generations inherit a better world.

🌟 Overcoming Adversity and Inspiring Future Generations

Linda shares her personal story of overcoming adversity, from growing up in the segregated South to becoming a top diplomat. She emphasizes the importance of not letting the beginning of one's life define its end and encourages young people to seize opportunities. She reflects on her family's experiences and the importance of hope, leadership, and contributing to positive change.

Keywords

💡Rwanda Genocide

The Rwanda Genocide was a mass slaughter of Tutsi in Rwanda during a 100-day period in 1994. It is a key context in the video as Linda Thomas-Greenfield recounts a personal story of facing a young man with a gun during this time, highlighting her experiences and the gravity of the conflict.

💡Diplomacy

Diplomacy refers to the practice of managing international relations by negotiating and communicating with other countries. The video emphasizes Thomas-Greenfield's diplomatic career, her methods like 'gumbo diplomacy,' and her efforts in various global crises, showcasing the importance of diplomacy in maintaining international peace and relations.

💡Gumbo Diplomacy

Gumbo Diplomacy is a term coined by Linda Thomas-Greenfield to describe her approach to diplomacy, which involves cooking gumbo and sharing meals to create a comfortable environment for tough conversations. This concept illustrates her unique, personal method of building relationships and facilitating dialogue in her diplomatic work.

💡United Nations

The United Nations (UN) is an international organization founded in 1945 to promote peace, security, and cooperation among countries. Thomas-Greenfield serves as the US Ambassador to the UN, and the video covers her role in addressing various global issues and the challenges she faces within this international body.

💡Sudan

Sudan is a country in Northeast Africa that has experienced significant conflict and humanitarian crises. Thomas-Greenfield discusses the difficulties in drawing international attention to Sudan's issues, emphasizing the challenges of addressing crises in Africa and her personal efforts to highlight these problems.

💡Gaza

Gaza refers to a region in the Middle East that has been the site of ongoing conflict between Israelis and Palestinians. The video addresses the complexities of US foreign policy in Gaza, including Thomas-Greenfield's emotional recount of witnessing suffering and the political sensitivities surrounding the US's stance on the conflict.

💡Two-state Solution

The Two-state Solution is a proposed solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, envisioning an independent State of Palestine alongside the State of Israel. Thomas-Greenfield mentions this as the ultimate goal for achieving peace in the region, reflecting a key objective in US and international diplomatic efforts.

💡Leadership

Leadership in this context refers to the ability to guide and influence others, particularly in the realm of international relations. The video showcases Thomas-Greenfield's leadership qualities and the role of the US in global diplomacy, despite challenges and skepticism from other nations.

💡Crisis Burnout

Crisis Burnout refers to the fatigue and desensitization that can occur when people are exposed to continuous crises. Thomas-Greenfield mentions this in relation to the international community's response to Sudan, highlighting the difficulty of maintaining attention and support for multiple, simultaneous global issues.

💡Climate Change

Climate Change refers to long-term changes in temperature and weather patterns, largely due to human activities. Thomas-Greenfield expresses concern for future generations in the video, noting the urgency of addressing climate change as a critical issue for global stability and the well-being of her grandchildren.

Highlights

Linda Thomas-Greenfield's encounter with a young man during the Rwandan genocide and how sharing her name led to a friendly conversation.

Thomas-Greenfield's career as a veteran diplomat, including postings in Pakistan, Kenya, Jamaica, and serving as the Assistant Secretary of State for African Affairs in the Obama administration.

Her arrival at the UN in 2021, during a time when America's image was tarnished, and her efforts to improve it.

Thomas-Greenfield's reflections on Ralph J. Bunche's legacy and his influence on her work.

Her perspective on mediators and the qualities they should possess to achieve peace.

Explanation of 'gumbo diplomacy' and how it helps build relationships and facilitate difficult conversations.

The differences between the world when she started her career in 1982 and now, particularly the impact of 24-hour news and social media.

Her observations on the world's safety, comparing past and present security issues.

Challenges in drawing attention to crises like Sudan due to concurrent global crises and the need for higher visibility for African issues.

The emotional impact of her work, including witnessing suffering in Gaza and other conflict zones.

The complexities of US foreign policy, particularly regarding Israel and Gaza, and the perception of American actions.

Thomas-Greenfield's view on the importance of the US's role in global leadership despite criticism and skepticism.

Her reflections on democracy, the potential impact of the 2024 elections, and the resilience of the US democratic system.

Personal stories about her family's experiences with voting and education, highlighting the progress and challenges in American democracy.

Her concerns about the future, including the impact of climate change on the next generation and her commitment to contributing to a better world.

Transcripts

When I was in Rwanda during the genocide,

I was face to face with a young man

with a gun pointed at me.

I thought I was gonna be killed

and I decided that it would matter to him

if he knew my name.

And so I told him my name.

If he had killed me,

I wanted him to constantly remember that he killed Linda,

that I left two children behind.

How did he react?

We ended up having kind of a friendly conversation.

With a gun pointed at you?

He put it away from my face.

Okay, so what is a friendly conversation like

with someone- He told me his name.

I told him that I lived in Kenya

and I can't explain to anyone why I survived,

but I then saw him several days later

when we were evacuating.

He was at a roadblock and he said, "Oh, my friend."

And let us answer the call to leverage AI

for the good of all people in the only way we can -

together.

Thank you.

A veteran diplomat

before being appointed US Ambassador to the United Nations,

Linda Thomas-Greenfield has held foreign service postings

around the world from Pakistan to Kenya to Jamaica,

and served as the Assistant Secretary of State

for African Affairs in the Obama administration.

In 2021, she arrived at the UN

in a moment when America's image there

had quite literally become a punchline.

In less than two years,

my administration has accomplished

more than almost any administration

in the history of our country.

America's, so true.

Didn't expect that reaction, but that's okay.

I caught up with her in DC

to talk about the challenges of American diplomacy

in an era when the great powers

are inching closer to conflict,

and as the world moves through a historic election year

in which many democracies are lurching to the right.

So I wanna start talking about where we are.

We're in the Ralph J. Bunche Library.

He received the Nobel Peace Prize

for his work mediating on Palestine with the United Nations.

What does it mean to you to be in this place and-

Well, it's interesting to be here.

There are a number of places that I visit

on a regular basis that carry Ralph Bunche's name,

so I remember him all the time.

And as we're dealing right now with the situation in Gaza,

I think about everything that he worked to accomplish

and we're still in this place.

So this library is really important.

There's a monument in New York to him

that I pass by on a regular basis.

There's a Ralph Bunche Center at Howard University,

so his name is always, always at the forefront

of my thinking.

He once said a quote about mediators

and the qualities that they should possess.

Quote, "They should be biased against war and for peace,

they should have a bias which would lead them to believe

in the essential goodness of their fellow men.

And that no problem of human relations is insoluble.

They should be biased against suspicion, intolerance,

hate, religious and racial bigotry."

If we could get mediators who have all of those qualities,

we would find peace so quickly.

And I think mediators do tend to,

and particularly negotiators

who are negotiating for peace

bring their biases into the room.

And so it's hard sometimes

to get to a middle point of a negotiation

until they put their biases aside.

So you've talked a lot about gumbo diplomacy.

Can you explain what gumbo diplomacy is?

You know, gumbo is a very famous dish in Louisiana.

I'm from Louisiana,

and most people who grew up in Louisiana

know how to make gumbo.

And so over the course of my career, I would make gumbo.

I couldn't teach my cook how to make it,

so I would always make it.

And people would come and say,

"Well, how did you make that?"

And I would invite them to come and, of course,

give them the tough work,

like chopping onions to cry with.

I always made the roux,

but you would get into conversations with people.

They would get comfortable with you

in your kitchen watching you cook a meal for them.

And that comfort allowed me

to sometimes have tough conversations

to talk about things that people might not want to discuss

if I was sitting in their office.

Can you give me an example of a time

when gumbo diplomacy really worked?

It works all the time.

Does it? It really does.

I use it in New York,

I do it with my staff, with my family.

It always works because it makes people comfortable.

There's something about busying your hands, I think.

Yeah, you're talking and you're chopping

and they talk about their lives and their families,

and you just learn about people.

You develop that relationship.

And diplomacy is about building relationships.

So you started as a diplomat some 40 years ago, right?

Yeah, 1982.

Can you talk about what's different about the world now?

The world is different

and there are a lot of differences.

First and foremost, we didn't have the 24 press,

we didn't have all of the social media

that would get the news out faster.

So as a foreign service officer, political officer,

we were basically reporters reporting

what was happening in the countries

we were in back to Washington.

It might take you a week to get a cable out.

Right, you're like magazine journalists.

If you take a week to get a cable out now,

it's all over the press five minutes after the news broke.

Right.

And my first experience with that,

I was living in The Gambia

and there was a movement of refugees from Mauritania

who had been kicked out of Senegal,

and they came into The Gambia.

And I was the political officer.

I was also the officer responsible for refugees.

And I did a report.

It didn't take days, it took more than 24 hours

because I was also doing the work

and it was reported on CNN

before I could get my cable out.

And it kinda shocked me

that the news could get out that quickly.

So that's one of the biggest changes.

Here in the state department,

we get the news sometimes

before we hear it from our embassies,

but what our embassies do is they provide context,

they provide analysis,

they put comments in that will explain what is happening,

and you don't get that from the news.

Is the world safer now?

That's a hard question.

When I look back at Rwanda in 1994,

look at 9/11,

I look back at Liberia in 1989

when there was a coup

and thousands of people fled across the border,

we were dealing with some of the same issues.

So I don't think the world is safer now,

and I don't think it was safer then.

I think we're dealing

with different kinds of security issues,

but they're security issues nonetheless.

We were talking about information

and how quickly information spreads now,

but it's still not always easy

to get attention on issues that you care about.

Sudan is an example of this.

You've been trying to sound the alarm

about what is happening there.

Can you talk a bit about why you think

it has been difficult to divert attention

to what is happening there?

I think there are a number of factors.

First, we're dealing with so many crises

or concurrent crises now.

So one doesn't end before the next one starts.

So there's a bit of crisis burnout,

I think, among the international community.

But I also, to be frank with you,

think that Sudan is in Africa.

You know,

we have to always in Africa raise the flag

a little bit higher to get attention.

I was reading your "New York Times" op-ed about Sudan,

and I was struck by, you wrote beautifully

and in such a descriptive way about the devastation

that you saw there and about children starving

and what that looked like

and what it did not sound like

contrary to what you were anticipating.

You said that it was silent, which you were not expecting.

The way that you wrote about that

and with such empathy was it seemed indicative

of your values throughout your 40 years in service.

But it did strike me that it is quite different

from how you've been able

to talk about what's happening in Gaza.

There are also children starving there.

There are some 30,000,

more than 30,000 people who've died there.

I talk about Gaza the same way as I talk about Sudan.

I have seared into my brain

watching a young child in Gaza

under the rubble with only one arm

and their head sticking out

and people trying to get that child out to safety.

And to this day, I don't know whether she survived.

There is no lack of empathy or support.

But it did strike me that it does not seem

like you have the same amount of freedom

to talk about what is happening in Gaza.

You are in a much trickier predicament

in terms of not stepping on toes,

not getting out ahead of the administration,

not sounding more aggressive about Israel, I presume,

than the President does, for instance.

Yeah, we take our guidance

from the President on any issue.

He's our foreign policy leader.

There is the perception that the US

is tacitly condoning what amounts to a genocide.

What do you say to that?

I say they're wrong.

I say that they need to look at our actions

at what we have done over the course of the past six months

to really try to bring this war to an end.

And as I've said to my colleagues in New York,

we're the only ones on the ground trying to negotiate peace.

As Israel became increasingly isolated diplomatically,

images of Ambassador Thomas-Greenfield

raising her hand at the UN

to veto ceasefire resolution were widely shared online,

symbolizing perceived American ambivalence

to the massive loss of Palestinian lives.

Even as the Gaza death toll surpassed 30,000,

the administration kept sending billions of dollars

worth of bombs, artillery shells,

and other weapons to Israel.

President Joe Biden at one point paused a shipment

warning Israel of red lines

that could trigger a severe US reaction,

but it's unclear what those red lines are.

Meanwhile, back at home,

universities were erupting in protest.

Two of them canceled planned commencement addresses

by Thomas-Greenfield.

And while she eventually did get to vote for a ceasefire,

the Biden administration

remains under intense scrutiny over the war.

How many civilian casualties is too many?

Any civilian casualty is too many, anywhere in the world.

Any.

In a situation like this,

and I don't mean to make light of it,

but where does gumbo diplomacy factor in

when you're talking about something this complicated?

You know, it's interesting you asked that question.

I met with the Palestinian representative in New York

over an Iftar dinner, and we prayed together,

I stood in the back of the room,

and at the end of the prayer they prayed for all of us.

And for me that was gumbo diplomacy without the gumbo.

Can you explain to me what is it like emotionally

when you have to do something difficult in your job,

like veto a ceasefire resolution?

I'm a very emotional person.

You are?

People have seen me cry in public.

And so for me, all of this is emotionally taxing.

I have the responsibility of explaining to the world

why certain decisions are being made

by the United States government.

Decisions that I support, decisions that I agree with.

How do you think that solution will come?

It will come at the end of this fighting

with a two-state solution

in which Palestinians can live in a country of their own

and Israelis can live in security and peace.

And that's the goal

that we have been working toward for many, many years.

And we have to put that at the forefront

of what we're doing right now.

I'm confident in the role that I play,

I am representing the government of the United States,

and I describe it as using a needle to carve a mountain.

And if you're up close,

you see the changes that are being made.

If you're at a distance, you don't see those changes.

And I do see myself as contributing to our policies,

contributing to the nuances in our policies.

Carving a mountain with a needle is fine

for the slow march of a traditional democracy,

but the direction of American foreign policy

faces a more immediate timeline.

Former President Donald Trump, twice impeached,

indicted four times,

and now a convicted felon is statistically a coin toss away

from winning back the presidency.

America's reputation took quite a hit

I think during the Trump years, globally.

America's reputation had taken quite a hit

during our wars on terror.

And we are in quite a different position than we were

I think when you started your career

when it was kind of a pretty simple story

about good guys versus bad guys on the world stage.

How do you communicate a positive message about America

when there is so much,

I think often justifiable skepticism about the US

and our intentions in the rest of the world?

You know, one of the questions I get asked regularly

by my interlockers here in New York is,

how do we know you're back for good?

How do we know that you can be trusted?

And I don't have an answer for that.

They have to answer that question for themselves.

They have to look at what we do.

They themselves will have to work to help us ensure

that the next generation of young people

around the globe have a world that they can have faith in,

that they will find peaceful

and one in which they have hope.

And there are a lot of people in the world

who at this moment are devoid of hope.

Do you think that the US' posture towards Israel

makes that a bit more challenging right now?

I think it has made that challenging,

but I think our leadership has never, ever been questioned.

I think people see- I think it has.

I don't think so.

There's no- What do you mean

hasn't been questioned? Time in the world

where the US presence at the table is not wanted.

We may be in disagreement with each other.

Right.

So it's not our leadership that's being challenged,

it's sometimes our stances or our policies are questioned.

Okay.

But US leadership is still at the forefront.

And that is why countries continue to engage with us

even on the most difficult of issues,

on issues where we disagree with each other,

we're not being ignored.

Looking ahead to November,

if former President Trump does win,

how fragile a situation do you think the US is in,

in terms of our standing on the world stage

and the world's perception of us?

The world is very, very dependent on us.

They're worried about our place

and whether we will continue to play the role

that we are playing.

And I can only say to them

that we can't predict the future,

but know that the US will always be there.

How we are there, I can't say that, I don't know that,

but I know that what we're working on now

is a process of cementing and giving people confidence

that the US will be there for them.

2024, in terms of democracy, is very important.

Some two billion voters

are gonna be going to the polls worldwide.

What is the worst case scenario for the elections in 2024,

domestically and abroad?

Let's start with abroad,

we want to see countries continue to embrace democracy.

We want to see them really support the values

of human rights, press freedoms of inclusivity

that democracies bring.

And we have seen some backsliding

over the past few years in countries around the world.

Do you include the US in that backslide?

I don't, I think our democracy continues to be strong.

Democracy is not a straight narrow line

from point A to point Z.

There are always barriers in the way.

We have seen some of those barriers happen

here in the United States,

but our democracy continues to thrive in this country.

I think others around the world are looking at our country

and they're worried about whether our democracy is strong.

I have assured them that we continue to be a country

that they can depend on

and a country where our democracy will continue to thrive.

Why are you confident about that?

You know, I've lived it,

I grew up in the segregated South

when my parents couldn't vote.

And to see my mother vote

for the first time was huge for me.

And she had an eighth grade education, right?

She had an eighth grade education.

She grew up in a town

where the Black school only went to eighth grade.

So if kids wanted to get a high school diploma,

they had to move away.

And so she didn't finish high school until 1989,

and it was a proud moment for us.

And your father,

I believe you've called him the smartest person

that you ever knew, but he could not read.

Is that right?

He could not read

and I didn't know that for many, many years.

One of the rituals in our family,

and I don't know if we considered it a ritual back then,

but my mother would sit at the dining room table

in the evening and read the newspaper out loud

and we would all listen to her reading the newspaper.

And I realized she was reading it

for my father after the fact.

So when you look at the trajectory of your life

starting out there

and becoming one of the top diplomats in the world,

what do you think of that?

It reminds me every day,

and I say this to every young person,

particularly those who are from disadvantaged backgrounds,

that the first chapter of your life

will not define the last chapter.

And I had no clue when I was born in Charity Hospital

in New Orleans, Louisiana,

and raised in a segregated community in Baker, Louisiana,

that I would become the US Ambassador to the United Nations

because I didn't even know what that was.

So what I want to say to young people

is don't limit yourself.

There are lots of opportunities out there

and you just have to make yourself available

for those opportunities.

And that's how I got here.

What keeps you up at night?

You know, that's a good question.

So at some point I said to someone,

Sudan was keeping me awake at night

because nobody was paying attention to Sudan.

But I also worry about the next Sudan.

I worry about what the next generation

will experience with climate change.

I have three grandchildren.

I don't know what their lives will be like 20 years from now

because we didn't make the right decisions 20 years ago.

And I'm at that stage in my life

where I have less time looking forward.

And I do worry all the time

about what the world would be like in 10 years

and what I can do today to make it better

for people 10 years from now.

Are you optimistic about your ability to do that?

I'm not.

I am not narcissistic,

my ego is very small.

I said optimistic, not narcissistic.

I know.

So I am optimistic that it can be done.

When I say my ego, I'm not optimistic

that necessarily I will be the person

that will make that change happen.

But I do know that every single day I contribute to that.

So I'm just one in millions.

So when I say I'm not narcissistic,

it means I don't think I'm going to be the person

that will change the world.

I just know that I'm gonna be one of the people

who will contribute to making the world a better place.