Why Indonesia is pushing back against EU rules | DW News
Summary
TLDRThe transcript discusses tensions between the EU and Indonesia over environmental policies, particularly the EU's deforestation laws, which Indonesia's ambassador to Germany argues are harming small farmers and hindering trade. The ambassador calls for fair treatment and readiness from the EU to implement agreed treaties, while also highlighting Indonesia's openness to foreign investment in its nickel industry. The conversation touches on trade imperialism, Indonesia's economic strategies to avoid the resource curse, and a call for Germany to support Indonesia in finalizing a free trade agreement and fostering industrial collaboration.
Takeaways
- 😡 The EU's policy on deforestation is criticized as being poorly thought out and harmful to small holders rather than large corporations.
- 🌳 The EU's law to ban deforestation from supply chains is seen as hypocritical, especially considering the loss of mature forests in Europe itself.
- 📋 Indonesia is willing to abide by anti-deforestation laws but seeks fair treatment and non-discriminatory implementation from the EU.
- 🤝 The Indonesian ambassador to Germany emphasizes the readiness of Indonesia to engage in robust cooperation against deforestation.
- 💼 There is a call for the EU to work with Indonesia, rather than impose policies that may harm small farmers and local economies.
- 🌐 The ambassador highlights the importance of fair trade and the need for the EU to be ready for agreements like the UDR (Unilateral Deforestation Regulation).
- 🤔 The EU's stance on nickel production and trade with Indonesia is questioned, with the ambassador pointing out a perceived double standard.
- 🏭 Indonesia is inviting foreign investment to improve its smelting systems and meet the world's demand for nickel, despite trade challenges.
- 📉 The nickel industry in Indonesia faces challenges such as falling prices and the need for better environmental practices.
- 🌐 The ambassador suggests that the EU's approach to trade and investment in Indonesia is imperialistic and not inclusive.
- 📊 Indonesia's economy has been performing well, with a focus on managing resources wisely and developing sectors like the digital economy.
Q & A
What is the main concern of small holders regarding the EU's policy on deforestation?
-Small holders are concerned that the EU's policy is not well thought out and is negatively impacting them, as they are being accused of contributing to deforestation despite not being directly involved.
How does the EU's law to ban deforestation affect trade partners like Indonesia?
-The EU's law is frustrating trade partners abroad, such as Indonesia, which has valuable minerals for tech use and claims that the regulation is harming its small farmers.
What is the current situation with the free trade deal between the EU and Indonesia?
-The two parties are currently thrashing out a free trade deal, with the issue of the EU's environmental principles and its impact on Indonesia's small farmers being a point of contention.
What is Indonesia's stance on the EU's requirements for anti-deforestation?
-Indonesia is ready to abide by the anti-deforestation requirements but questions whether the EU is ready to implement them without discriminations, especially regarding vegetable oils like palm oil.
How does the ambassador of Indonesia to Germany view the EU's approach to environmental standards?
-The ambassador believes the EU's approach is hypocritical, pointing out that Europe's mature forests are dying without the same level of protest as deforestation in the global South.
What is the issue with the EU's implementation of the UDR (User's Data Regulation)?
-The ambassador suggests that the EU is not fully implementing what has already been agreed upon in legally binding treaties, and questions the EU's commitment to fair treatment.
How does the ambassador perceive the impact of the EU's policy on small holders in Indonesia?
-The ambassador argues that the EU's policy is killing small holders who have nothing to do with deforestation, and that the policy is not well thought out.
What is Indonesia doing to address the challenges in the nickel industry?
-Indonesia is working on improving its smelting system and inviting foreign investors to help meet the world's needs for nickel, which is crucial for battery manufacturing.
How does the ambassador view the EU's stance on Indonesia's ban on the exportation of nickel ore?
-The ambassador believes the EU is being hypocritical by not allowing Indonesia to process its raw materials, similar to how Chile is treated under the FDA between Brussels and Chile.
What is the ambassador's message to the EU regarding their policy on deforestation and trade?
-The ambassador's message is that the EU's policy is not well thought out and is harming small holders. He suggests that the EU should engage more robustly with Indonesia in the fight against deforestation.
How does Indonesia manage to avoid the resource curse and maintain a strong economy?
-Indonesia focuses on a digital economy, services, e-commerce, fintech, and a strong domestic consumption driven by a young population, as well as prudent fiscal policies and controlled inflation.
What is the ambassador's request to Germany's ambassador, Olaf Scholz?
-The ambassador asks for Germany's help in finishing the FDA with the US and encourages more German industries to invest in Indonesia, highlighting the country's readiness with 'red carpet' treatment.
Outlines
🌳 EU Deforestation Policy Critique and Indonesia's Trade Concerns
The first paragraph discusses criticisms of the EU's policy on deforestation, which is perceived as detrimental to small farmers and hypocritical given Europe's own forest loss. The speaker, presumably Indonesia's ambassador to Germany, argues that the EU's ban on deforestation in supply chains is frustrating trade partners like Indonesia, which has valuable minerals for tech industries. The ambassador emphasizes that Indonesia is ready to comply with anti-deforestation laws but questions the EU's readiness and fairness in implementation, highlighting the disparity in treatment between palm oil and other vegetable oils. The paragraph also touches on the impact of these policies on small holders and the broader implications for trade agreements and supply chains.
🤝 Addressing Trade Disputes and Investment Opportunities in Indonesia
The second paragraph delves into Indonesia's efforts to meet global nickel demands for electric vehicle batteries and mobile phones, despite challenges like falling nickel prices and carbon-intensive production. The ambassador highlights Indonesia's improved smelting systems and openness to foreign investment from various countries, including a push for German investment. The paragraph addresses the trade dispute with the EU over Indonesia's ban on nickel ore exports, which the EU and WTO opposed. The ambassador invites the EU to invest and collaborate in Indonesia instead of imposing trade barriers and criticizes the EU's alleged double standards in trade practices.
📈 Indonesia's Economic Growth and Strategies to Avoid the Resource Curse
The final paragraph outlines Indonesia's economic achievements and strategies to sidestep the resource curse, focusing on the digital economy, which includes e-commerce, fintech, and media services. The ambassador mentions the country's large domestic market, supported by a young population with high consumption rates, and prudent fiscal policies that have contributed to controlled inflation and reduced unemployment. The ambassador also discusses Indonesia's balanced trade relations with various global powers, including the US, EU, China, and others, emphasizing openness and the avoidance of colonialist or imperialistic practices. The paragraph concludes with a message to Germany's ambassador, inviting further investment and cooperation, and highlighting the positive historical relations between Germany and Indonesia.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Deforestation
💡Supply Chain
💡Small Holders
💡Environmental Standards
💡Trade Deal
💡Nickel
💡Certification
💡Investment
💡World Trade Organization (WTO)
💡Resource Curse
Highlights
Policy critique on small holders: The speaker argues that the EU's policy is inadvertently harming small farmers rather than addressing deforestation effectively.
EU hypocrisy on environmental standards: The speaker accuses the EU of being hypocritical, pointing out the lack of protest over Europe's own forest loss compared to the outcry over deforestation in the global South.
Indonesia's readiness for anti-deforestation measures: The ambassador asserts that Indonesia is prepared to comply with anti-deforestation regulations, questioning the EU's readiness to implement them without discrimination.
Challenges in the palm oil industry: The impact of the EU's UDR on small palm oil farmers is discussed, with concerns raised about the potential exclusion of small holders from supply chains.
Call for EU investment in Indonesia: The ambassador invites EU investment to improve smelting systems for nickel production, suggesting that collaboration could resolve trade disputes.
WTO ruling on nickel export ban: The discussion touches on the WTO's decision in favor of the EU regarding Indonesia's ban on nickel ore exports, and the implications for trade relations.
Indonesia's openness to EU investment: The ambassador emphasizes Indonesia's willingness to accept EU investment in its nickel industry, paralleling opportunities given to other foreign investors.
EU's alleged double standards: The speaker alleges that the EU treats Chile more favorably than Indonesia, suggesting a double standard in processing raw materials and investment policies.
Indonesia's economic performance: The ambassador outlines how Indonesia has managed to avoid the resource curse through the growth of its digital economy and prudent fiscal policies.
Importance of the digital economy: The role of the digital economy in Indonesia's economic success is highlighted, with a focus on services, e-commerce, and fintech.
Demographic advantage for domestic consumption: The young population of Indonesia and its impact on domestic consumption and economic growth is noted.
Indonesia's balanced trade relations: The ambassador discusses how Indonesia maintains balanced trade relations with various global powers, including the US, EU, and China.
Request for German assistance: The ambassador asks for Germany's help in finalizing the FDA with the EU and attracting more German industries to Indonesia.
Historical relations with Germany: The ambassador reflects on the positive historical relations between Indonesia and Germany, dating back 500 years, and the absence of colonialism.
Message to Olaf Scholz: A direct appeal to the German chancellor for support in trade negotiations and investment attraction to Indonesia.
Indonesia's preparedness for future relations: The ambassador expresses optimism for the next 500 years of relations with Germany, emphasizing the positive and non-colonial history.
Transcripts
your policy is not well thought out you
are actually killing the small holders
do you think that Europe has been
hypocritical on this absolutely
Brussels should have helped us instead
of attacking
us the eu's law to ban deforestation
from the supply chains of its companies
is frustrating trade Partners abroad
just take Indonesia which has valuable
minerals for use in Tech like batteries
and computer chips it says the
regulation is harming its small farmers
the bat comes as the two are thrashing
out a free trade deal so does the EU
back down in its environmental
principles or put at risk its
relationship with Indonesia and
potentially cut off a vital supply chain
I spoke with Indonesia's ambassador to
Germany asking him if they're close to
sealing a deal for us
is in general uh the largest uh uh
element which is uh Timber and palm oil
I think we confident it is not a big
problem so I think uh all in all uh the
question for us is that is EU ready is
EU ready because the EU would be asking
are you ready to abide by the
anti-deforestation we are ready we are
ready because it has to be the question
is that uh will EU Implement UDR without
discriminations for instance uh
vegetable oils okay palm oil
palm oil is the
only vegetable oil with stringent
certifications rep seed in Europe no
certifications um soybean in Europe no
certifications will EU farmer that has
received billions and billions of Euros
of subsidy are they willing to be uh uh
you know putting a stringent uh
requirement so we are
ready you said in a tweet Europe mature
forests are dying EU lost 2.2 million
hectares of forest but I hear no massive
protest from those who scream about
deforestation in the global South why so
do you think that Europe has been
hypocritical on this absolutely
absolutely um exactly that is my
question is EU ready in the in the UDR
for instance we've done a survey with
Professor from Guan University and
Indonesian University
gamada out of 27 members
states only half knows the treat that we
signed in
2013 member states don't really either
you know I want to be blunt you know
they don't they don't they're not
willing or they're not able to promote
our product so this is a legally binding
treaty mind you okay ratified by all
members of parliament in EU ratified by
our Parliament so it's very strong
stronger than
UDR and yet
Brussel has no commitment to implement
what is already agreed so then the
question is always from my side where is
your fair treatment and are you ready
look at it from the eu's position right
they're going to say if we say we want
you know environmental standards and
this kind of thing and yet let big
financial institutions invest in
companies that are carrying out
deforestation then that is going to be a
massive point of hypocrisy for the EU so
they have to do something you're saying
small holders won't be affected by this
at all everything will be fine as long
as the the EU implements what has been
agreed fully
false because the problem is with the
small holders the big companies the the
big investor as you rly mentioned they
are sensitive to Public Image right
they're sensitive to criticism thetive
to attacks by NGO so they are the one
who actually have the drive positive
Thrive to become green and sustainable
the problem with the small holder is
that we have first of all around
41% of the 16 million hectare of palm
oils uh Plantation owned by small
holders small mean half hectar up to
three four hectares and they might not
have the land title so what what is
going to happen is that uh because of
the segregation system that EU uh uh put
on the UDR so the big companies they
said well okay I'm sorry small farmers
I'm not going to take your
products I want to be sure this coming
from my own property and um you know I'm
sorry about you it's it's not my problem
because I'm going to sell to to EU but
what's your what's your message to the
EU on that point the message is very
simple that your policy is not well
thought out your your your aim is to
create uh uh free deforestation
but you are actually killing the small
holders who have nothing to do with
deforestations okay so if you really
want to be serious in in this fight
against deforestation which we are also
very serious uh you can uh engage us
much more uh uh robustly okay yeah I
want to move on to to Nickel
specifically nickel so Indonesia is
expected to meet 2/3 of the world's
needs for nickel which is obviously in
the manufacturer of batteries for
electric vehicles mobile phones and so
on but there are complexities so the
nickel price has come down um quite a
bit in the last 18 months it's a very
carbon intensive industry and not all of
the nickel being produced is yet battery
grade so what is Indonesia doing to meet
these challenges so first of all I think
it's to get a better smelting system the
furnace is better okay and uh in that in
that that regard uh we are inviting
foreign investors so now we have Chinese
already in Indonesia we have Canadians
we have Korean we have Japanese and I've
been working very hard to bring German
investors uh on this uh kind of a
project so
Brussels should have helped us instead
of attacking us because in the context
of uh FDA between Brussels in
Chile they are willing uh to allow Chile
to process in
Chile so again is a double standard with
Chile they are willing to process the
raw materials in Chile they will willing
to allow investment in Chile but with
Indonesia is definitely aack but the
World Trade Organization ruled in the
eu's favor so just to just to dig into
this to explain so Indonesia imposed a
ban on the exportation ofal or so that
you could support these um smelting
Industries and so on inside Indonesia
cor um but the EU says that that's
unfair and the World Trade Organization
ruled in its favor so what is the way to
settle this dispute at a time when
appeals are just not being processed
yeah number one the question of fair
that they are
claiming um our data shows that we never
actually exported to
EU there is a shipment from Indonesia to
one EU country and one one EU Port but
the information that I receive is that
this is a port that collect nickel from
Africa but the you might want to in the
future hang on hang on but this this
this this this nickel that came from
Indonesia sitting in one European Port
they're going back to
China
so the question is what is EU actually
wants okay uh it wants to secure
strategic minerals exactly so why don't
you just work work with us instead of
you know uh they can't because you've
imposed a ban no we open the opportunity
for EU to come and to invest in
Indonesia you know as uh what the
Chinese Korean Japanese Canadians the
French what's the differ between the
French and and Brussel it's it's the
same so if we have already French
investment and we hope to have uh two
German companies in investing India so
you know what's what's the what's the
what's the me and if you have a concern
about your nickle is not green enough so
come and assist us we are open for your
uh assistance we open for your uh
discussions if if you want to be part of
the discussion that is
inclusive non
colonis uh you know uh just just uh you
know extend your hand and so you're
saying that the EU is behaving in a as
in a colonialized manner it's uh it's
not colonialism it's just imperialism
okay I want I want to dig more into what
you're saying about the industrial was
it trade imperialism yeah how does
Indonesia balance its trade relations
and the perhaps conflicting interests
between the US the EU and China yeah I
think first I would like to address the
number of the trade basically trade uh
with China is increasing because we have
the FDA with China and now we are now
increasingly having more trade with the
us because we signed EPF we sign uh
International partnership so where is
Brussel if if they say we are not open
we are open to the us we have a open
relations with Australia with Western
countries with with China with Japan
with with South Korea so I
think coming back to my thesis is EU
ready whether it in trade whether in UDR
whether in the nickel so that is the
questions that we want to pose okay so
um Indonesia's economy has consistently
performed well lately how have you
managed to achieve that and avoid the
Trap that some countries have fallen
into called the resource curse so it's
not just a matter of having lots of
resources therefore you become a
developed economy but rather it's how
you manage them so how has Indonesia
managed to do that um um digital economy
is one of them so if you look at the
size of digital economy they they're big
and they have nothing to do at all with
resource there are Services there are
five area media is the largest of uh our
digital economy
e-commerce uh fintech okay and then also
um hotels services and then uh food
delivery very simple but we are 282
million people
so uh delivery uh business is very very
big especially during the pandemic and
the second I think is the age we have a
average is of 29 years old and it means
domestic consumption is quite high and
we have a very good controlled
inflations of course uh prudent uh in in
the uh state budget and declining of the
unemployment and coming of the
investment and the investment that comes
are not necessarily resource but also
manufacturing as well okay I just want
to end on on one thing quite simply what
is your message to Olaf Schultz as
ambassador of Germany if you can tell
him one thing about what he should do to
work with
Indonesia what is your request what is
your ask of him help us in the uh
discussions with the you to finish the
FDA with the US as soon as possible and
of course uh the effect will be bringing
more uh German Industries in Indonesia
we even prepare um German industrial
parks uh in
Indonesia um we have red carpet for
German Industries um German tourists
German colleagues in Indonesia we have a
very long tradition of relation with
Indonesia and Germany not very many
people know that uh but uh the first
European who came to Indonesia was not
the Dutch it were it was not the Spanish
it was the German
doctors 500 years ago so I would say
that we have a very long relations uh
and is a very positive relation because
it's not colored by
colonialism um so you know Germany has a
very positive vibes in Indonesia so
you're looking forward to the next 500
years absolutely thank you very much for
taking the time to talk to yeah welcome
yeah welcome
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