Economist Joseph Stiglitz on Pro-Palestine campus protests, Trump and rethinking freedom

Summary

In this insightful podcast, Professor Joseph Stiglitz, a Nobel Prize-winning economist, discusses the conflict between the freedom to protest and the freedom to learn, particularly in the context of student activism on university campuses. He challenges the dominant ideology of neoliberalism, which he argues has led to increased inequality and a fertile ground for authoritarianism. Stiglitz advocates for a shift towards 'progressive capitalism' or 'rejuvenated social democracy,' emphasizing the importance of public investment, regulation, and progressive taxation. He also addresses the complexities of free trade, the role of government in managing trade agreements, and the need for a future-oriented industrial policy. Throughout the conversation, Stiglitz draws on his experiences and insights to provide a nuanced perspective on the balance between economic freedom and social responsibility, and the potential for a more equitable and sustainable economic system.

Takeaways

• 📚 The freedom to protest can sometimes conflict with the freedom to learn, highlighting the need for balance and respect for all parties involved.
• 💡 Neoliberalism, the dominant ideology post-war, promised growth and prosperity through deregulation and lower taxes but has been critiqued for increasing inequality.
• 🔄 Stiglitz argues for a shift from neoliberalism to 'Progressive Capitalism,' which emphasizes regulation, competitive markets, and consideration for the well-being of workers, communities, and the environment.
• 🤔 The right's inconsistent embrace of neoliberal principles, such as advocating for freedom while also supporting protectionist policies, indicates a lack of coherent intellectual philosophy.
• 🌎 Free trade agreements are often 'managed trade' designed to benefit corporate interests, rather than truly free and open markets.
• ⚖️ There are situations where a degree of coercion can enhance overall freedom, such as environmental regulations that protect public health and the planet.
• 👥 The success of societies is due to a balance of public and private institutions with checks and balances to prevent the abuse of power.
• 🏛️ Academic freedom is crucial for fostering critical thought and debate, and it should be protected from political interference.
• 👮‍♂️ The involvement of police in university protests should be a last resort, as it can lead to unnecessary conflict and potential long-term consequences for students.
• 🌱 Investment in people, R&D, and infrastructure is essential for economic growth and societal well-being.
• 🌿 Progressive capitalism can drive a green transition that benefits both the environment and the economy, dispelling the notion of trade-offs between ecology and prosperity.

Q & A

What is the main theme of Joseph Stiglitz's book 'The Road to Freedom'?

The main theme of 'The Road to Freedom' is a critique of neoliberalism and an exploration of how a good society can be created through what Stiglitz calls 'Progressive capitalism.'

How does Stiglitz argue that neoliberalism has contributed to societal issues?

Stiglitz argues that neoliberalism, with its emphasis on unfettered markets and deregulation, has led to increased inequality and deprivation, which in turn has created a fertile ground for authoritarianism and populism.

What is the relationship between economic freedom and political freedom according to Stiglitz?

Stiglitz contends that contrary to the belief of some economists like Hayek and Friedman, economic freedom does not necessarily lead to political freedom. Instead, he suggests that a balance must be struck where one person's freedom does not infringe upon another's.

How does Stiglitz view the role of government in a capitalist society?

Stiglitz advocates for a regulated form of capitalism where the government plays a significant role in ensuring the well-being of workers, communities, and the environment, moving away from the sole focus on shareholder value maximization.

What does Stiglitz believe is the impact of free trade agreements on society?

Stiglitz criticizes so-called free trade agreements, stating that they were more about managed trade for the benefit of corporate interests, particularly multinationals, rather than truly free trade which could benefit society as a whole.

How does Stiglitz respond to the argument that government interventions are always inefficient?

Stiglitz counters this by pointing out that private sector institutions also make mistakes and can be inefficient. He emphasizes the importance of checks and balances within society, which includes both public and private sectors.

What does Stiglitz suggest is the role of public investments in economic growth?

Stiglitz believes that public investments in areas such as healthcare, infrastructure, and R&D are crucial for economic growth. He argues that a strong social policy is not only beneficial for society but also a growth policy.

How does Stiglitz view the current state of neoliberalism?

Stiglitz is of the opinion that neoliberalism is in its death throes, with both Democratic and Republican parties moving away from it. He sees this as an opportunity to introduce a new ideology that focuses on progressive capitalism.

What is Stiglitz's stance on protests and the freedom of speech?

Stiglitz strongly supports the right to protest and the freedom of speech. However, he also emphasizes the importance of respecting others and not crossing lines that lead to actions like anti-Semitism or intimidation.

What does Stiglitz believe is the key to achieving peace in the Middle East?

Stiglitz suggests that prosperity is an important ingredient in achieving peace in the Middle East, and he expresses a willingness to help create a more prosperous Palestinian state.

How does Stiglitz feel about the current political climate in the United States?

Stiglitz expresses concern about the opportunism and lack of a coherent intellectual philosophy in the current political climate, particularly among right-wing politicians. He also criticizes the anti-university stance of some Republicans.

Outlines

00:00

😀 Freedom of Speech and Protest in Society

The first paragraph discusses the conflict between the freedom to protest and the freedom to learn, emphasizing the importance of respecting others' rights. It introduces the podcast 'Ways to Change the World' and its guest, Joseph Stiglitz, an influential economist who has critiqued neoliberalism in his book 'The Road to Freedom.' Stiglitz argues against the simplistic view that free markets lead to growth and that everyone benefits from it, instead proposing progressive capitalism as a solution that balances economic freedom with societal well-being.

05:02

🤔 The Downside of Free Markets and Neoliberalism

The second paragraph delves into the consequences of free markets and neoliberal policies, suggesting they have led to inequality and a fertile ground for authoritarianism. Stiglitz criticizes the incoherent philosophy of the right-wing, which claims freedom while interfering with individual rights. He also discusses the charade of free trade agreements, which he sees as managed trade benefiting corporations rather than the general public. Stiglitz highlights the need for compensation for those negatively affected by trade agreements and criticizes the lack of such measures.

10:05

👉 Centrist Politics and Progressive Capitalism

The third paragraph examines the shift in the Democratic party towards the center, as exemplified by Bill Clinton's 'triangulation' strategy. Stiglitz argues that this move away from the progressive philosophy of FDR has not yielded the desired outcomes and that a more aggressive stance is necessary for economic growth. He emphasizes the importance of investment in people, R&D, infrastructure, and a strong healthcare system. Stiglitz also discusses the concept of progressive capitalism, which involves a balance of institutions and regulation to ensure the well-being of all stakeholders.

15:07

🏛️ Successes and Failures of Public and Private Sectors

The fourth paragraph addresses skepticism about government interventions by contrasting the successes and failures of both public and private sectors. Stiglitz counters neoliberal tropes by pointing out the significant financial waste and failures of the private sector, particularly in the lead-up to the 2008 financial crisis. He also highlights the public sector's role in developing the mRNA vaccine platform and the creation of the internet, arguing for a balanced view of both sectors and the need for checks and balances within society.

20:09

🌐 Addressing Digital Harms and the Importance of Regulation

The fifth paragraph focuses on the need for public investments and regulations to prevent corporations from causing harm. Stiglitz discusses the issues with social media and digital harms, noting Europe's attempts to address these problems and America's reluctance to do so. He emphasizes the importance of expanding freedoms for all citizens and the need for checks and balances in society, including within the government and the private sector.

25:11

📚 Academic Freedom and the Role of Universities

The sixth paragraph discusses the importance of academic freedom and the role of universities in fostering intellectual, technological, and moral leadership. Stiglitz expresses concern over political interference in universities and the potential undermining of academic freedom. He also touches on the issue of protests on campus, emphasizing the need for students to respect others while engaging in activism. Stiglitz distinguishes between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism and stresses the importance of understanding and addressing these issues carefully.

30:12

🌟 Progressive Capitalism as a Path Forward

The seventh and final paragraph outlines Stiglitz's vision for a progressive capitalism and rejuvenated social democracy as a replacement for the failing neoliberal ideology. He expresses optimism that the political climate is shifting towards this new paradigm, with both major parties in the U.S. showing signs of moving away from neoliberalism. Stiglitz concludes by reiterating his belief in the necessity of public investment, good regulation, and progressive taxation for a more equitable and prosperous society.

Keywords

💡Freedom of Speech

Freedom of speech refers to the right to express one's opinions without censorship or restraint. In the video, it is a central theme as the discussion revolves around the conflict between the right to protest and the right to learn, particularly in the context of university settings. The script mentions how this freedom is essential but must be balanced with the respect for others and the maintenance of an environment conducive to learning.

💡Neoliberalism

Neoliberalism is an economic and political philosophy that advocates for free-market capitalism, deregulation, and reduction in government spending. The video criticizes neoliberalism as a dominant ideology that has led to increased inequality and a fertile ground for authoritarianism. It is contrasted with the concept of 'Progressive Capitalism' proposed by the speaker.

💡Progressive Capitalism

Progressive Capitalism is a concept that suggests a regulated form of capitalism that takes into account the well-being of workers, communities, and the environment, not just profit maximization. It is presented in the video as an alternative to neoliberalism, emphasizing a balance between economic freedom and social responsibility. The speaker argues that this approach can lead to a better society.

💡Academic Freedom

Academic freedom is the belief that scholars and students should have the liberty to question, investigate, and present ideas without political or religious censorship. The video discusses how academic freedom has been under threat, particularly from political interference, and how it is crucial for the strength of universities and intellectual progress.

💡Protest

Protest is a form of expression where individuals express their objection or disapproval of an idea or policy through public demonstrations. In the context of the video, protests are seen as a vital part of democratic societies, but there is a noted conflict when protests interfere with the freedom to learn, as seen in the student occupations at Columbia University.

💡Regulation

Regulation refers to the rules and restrictions set by a regulatory authority to control the operations of a particular industry or sector. The video argues for the necessity of regulation in markets to prevent exploitation and ensure a more equitable distribution of benefits. It is posited as a counterpoint to the unregulated markets advocated by neoliberalism.

💡Inequality

Inequality refers to the unequal distribution of resources, opportunities, or privileges among individuals or groups within a society. The video discusses how the neoliberal economic policies have contributed to increased inequality, which in turn has societal and political ramifications, potentially leading to authoritarian populism.

💡Demagogue

A demagogue is a political leader who seeks support by appealing to the desires and prejudices of ordinary people rather than by using rational argument. The video mentions demagogues as individuals who can exploit the discontent created by free markets and inequality, using this to their advantage in the political sphere.

💡Managed Trade

Managed trade refers to trade agreements that are regulated or controlled by governments to benefit certain industries or sectors. The video criticizes so-called 'free trade' agreements as being managed trade, designed to benefit multinational corporations rather than promoting fair and open trade that benefits all parties.

💡Public Investment

Public investment involves government spending in areas such as infrastructure, education, and healthcare to promote social welfare and economic growth. The video argues for increased public investment as a means to enhance freedom and potential for all citizens, contrasting with the neoliberal emphasis on privatization and reduction in government spending.

💡Checks and Balances

Checks and balances is a system in which powers are distributed among different branches of government or society to prevent any one branch or group from becoming too powerful. The video emphasizes the importance of checks and balances within society, including within both the government and the private sector, to maintain a fair and democratic system.

Highlights

The freedom to protest can sometimes conflict with the freedom to learn, creating a challenge for universities to balance these rights.

Joseph Stiglitz, a Nobel laureate, argues against the dominant ideology of neoliberalism, suggesting it has led to increased inequality and a fertile ground for authoritarianism.

Stiglitz's book 'The Road to Freedom' serves as a counterpoint to Friedrich Hayek's 'The Road to Serfdom', advocating for progressive capitalism.

The economist emphasizes the importance of finding a balance between market freedom and regulation, suggesting that neoliberalism oversimplifies this relationship.

Stiglitz discusses the concept of freedom in the context of environmental regulations, illustrating the trade-offs between individual freedoms and societal benefits.

He criticizes the right-wing's inconsistent embrace of neoliberal principles, highlighting their opportunistic approach to deregulation and market intervention.

The economist distinguishes between managed trade agreements, which often serve corporate interests, and true free trade, which could theoretically benefit society as a whole.

Stiglitz expresses concern about the potential for demagogues to exploit the discontent stemming from failed neoliberal policies, as seen with the rise of Donald Trump.

The Biden Administration's forward-looking industrial policy, focusing on sectors like green technology, is praised as a contrast to Trump's protectionist and retrospective approach.

Stiglitz calls for a more aggressive investment in people, R&D, and infrastructure, arguing that these are not just social policies but are essential for economic growth.

Progressive capitalism is described as a regulated form of capitalism that considers the well-being of workers, communities, and the environment, rather than just profit maximization.

The economist argues that public investments and regulations are necessary to prevent corporations from infringing on the freedoms of others.

Stiglitz addresses the importance of checks and balances within society, including the media and academia, to maintain a healthy democracy.

He defends the right to protest as crucial for societal change but also stresses the importance of respecting others and avoiding actions that cross a line.

Stiglitz reflects on his own experiences with protests, including the 1963 March on Washington, and their role in shaping American history.

The economist discusses the distinction between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism, cautioning against conflating the two and the potential for young protesters to go too far.

Stiglitz expresses concern over political interference in universities, which he sees as an attack on academic freedom and a threat to the future of intellectual and technological leadership in the U.S.

In discussing the Palestinian issue, Stiglitz shares his past work with the World Bank on the potential future of a Palestinian state and his willingness to help shape a more prosperous one.

The economist is optimistic about the shift away from neoliberalism towards a more progressive and democratic economic system, which he believes is already underway.

Transcripts

the freedom to protest comes in conflict

with the freedom to learn of other

students you occupy a building there's a

conflict of those freedoms young people

sometimes uh go over the

line that's part of Youth and and we we

we we ought to be at the same time

forgiving but I also think it's

important for them to learn to respect

[Music]

others hello and welcome to ways to

Chang the world the podcast about Big

Ideas and the events that have helped

shape them I'm Christian Guru Murphy and

my guest this week is one of the most

influential economists in the world

Joseph stiglets was chairman of the

Council of economic advisers to US

President Bill Clinton and chief

Economist at the world bank before being

awarded the Nobel Prize his latest book

is called the road to Freedom it

explores what's gone wrong with the

dominant ideology of free markets what

he terms neoliberalism it is the

rebuttal to two other Nobel prizewinning

economists of the 20th century who've

become the gods of right-wing free

market deregulates hak and fredman the

road to Freedom is of course the

Counterpoint to hak's road to serfdom

and it argues a good Society can be

created through what he calls

Progressive capitalism Professor stiglet

is now based at Columbia University in

New York where freedom of speech and the

right of protest has also been making

news in recent weeks thank you very much

for joining us nice to be here we'll get

to freedom of speech and protest in in

in a moment but but you've got some some

big Ideas which take on the dominant

ideology of the post-war consensus

that's right uh that dominant ideology

as you mentioned was neoliberalism and

uh looks parsed that word out Neo me new

liberalism is freeing it was uh uh an

attempt to update to the 20th century

the liberal ideas of the 19th century

but it wasn't really much change and it

was really a set of simple I would say

simplistic ideas that said that if you

Stripped Away

regulations lower taxes let unfettered

markets uh

rip um you'd have growth and trickle

down economics would ensure that even

though a lot of that benefits of that

growth would go to the top everybody

would be better off and there is this

sort of entrenched sense in all of our

thinking and and discourse that freeing

the market in some way frees people

that's right and and even the words that

uh the right has used free enterprise

free

markets suggest that there is a link

between

freedom and this neoliberal capitalism

and both Hayek and and uh Freedman

thought that this kind of economic

freedom would not only Liberate the

economy and make it more efficient more

perform better but was necessary if

we're going to have political

Freedom one of the things I argue in the

book is they were wrong both in their

economics and in their politics I mean

is the problem that that you know for

decades we have had these polarized

views of you know you you can either

have total freedom in which the market

runs a mark Or you can have communism or

dictatorship and the truth is that you

know you have to be somewhere in the in

between the two to to remind us of that

I I begin by talking about the Ten

Commandments which are a set of

regulations uh thou shall not kill th th

thou shall not steal that took away the

freedom of the thief and the murderer

but gave the rest of society so much

Freedom now in the 21st Century uh the

tradeoffs are a lot more subtle uh thou

shall not pollute uh

pollution uh ha takes away the freedom

of somebody with asthma even to live but

is putting in Jeopardy our whole world

so by restricting the freedom of the

polluters we are enhancing the freedom

of the rest of our society and that's

really one one of the big Ideas uh in

the book

that uh to put it as Isaiah Berlin the

great philosopher put it uh freedom for

the wolfs is often meant death for the

Sheep so so does that mean you can't

ever have a world in which Everybody's

Free well you you have to think very

carefully about how one person's Freedom

impinges that of another we are living

all tradeoffs it's all not all tradeoffs

because I also talk about some

circumstances where a little bit of

coercion

can actually increase everybody's

Freedom so so I mean well just to go

back a bit before that in a way I mean

it do you believe that the that free

markets are the road to surom that they

are the things that lead to people being

enslaved what I believe is that the

inequality and the deprivation that

we've seen out of free markets so-called

free markets uh has uh put us on the

road to serfdom to authoritarian to

populist uh the way I let me put it a

little bit more carefully uh they create

a fertile field uh there are other

factors uh that contribute to it but

they create a fertile field and it's a

field that demagogues will try to till

and there is in many countries including

the United States a rich supply of

demagogues will

and in some cases able to teal these

fields and we've wound up unlucky in the

United States with somebody like Donald

Trump but isn't it also quite confusing

if you're trying to understand what's

going on because you know some of these

right-wing populists are talking about

Market interventions to protect the home

markets so Trump with his protectionist

ideas now now now some of this is sort

of well are you on the same Turf are you

talking the same language yeah so so

what is interesting is that the right

today

has abandoned

neoliberalism in many essential ways

while embracing it in others and you're

right it is very confusing they do not

have a coherent intellectual philosophy

so they talk about Freedom the the the

ma main extreme Republican caucus is

called the freedom caucus in Congress

but they are perfectly uh willing

enthusiastic about interference ING with

women's right to make a choice their

Reproductive Rights they're perfectly

willing uh to interfere with other

people's rights so they don't and

and they they are not supportive of free

trade so they do not have a coherent

philosophy today they're opportunist but

uh it's exactly that opportunism that

has been created by the discontent of

the last 40 Years of failed

neoliberalism well can you also then

talk about free trade because because it

is free trade I mean the Assumption

again is that all free trade is a good

thing and and that it's part of sort of

deregulation and freeing and makes

everybody Richer there was a little bit

of a charade in calling all this free

trade the free trade agreements were

really managed trade agreements and they

were managed for the benefit of

corporate interest multinationals

multinational Financial companies uh so

there was a little bit of a charade in

calling it free trade um example uh uh

important provision was uh intellectual

property rights

Pharmaceuticals uh restricting the

movement of ideas across

boundaries uh so it was really a a

managed trade uh regime interestingly

economic theory have said that while

free trade could have beneficial effects

so large that the winners could

compensate the losers but also said that

there would be losers and unless you

provided that

compensation and unfortunately the

Republicans especially refused to

provide that compensation yes so so is

is the danger to your side of the

argument if you like that people like

Trump are saying things that are

appealing to the losers right now saying

things he's the con man and they are

saying things that are attractive but

he's not

delivering uh you know he he says I you

know I feel your pain I I want to help

you then what does he do he wants to

take away their health care he wants to

uh he has a tax reform that benefits the

billionaires but not ordinary people but

he does it in the language of saying

I'll protect your jobs did he create

jobs in those places where he promised

experience has been it was a failure and

the slogan of trump was make America

great again it's looking back in the

past uh the Biden Administration has

been looking forward and asking what are

the jobs for the 21st century and it's

focusing on things like chips the green

transition it's a future oriented

industrial policy rather than trying to

protect us against the changes that have

already uh uh left uh many places uh uh

behind right but but aren't you also

really criticizing centor left Politics

as well and saying that they're not

going far enough you know for the United

States uh one views it in a little bit

of historical

context uh

when Bill Clinton was running for the

presidency he felt that he needed to

redefine where the Democratic party was

he called it triangulation to get more

of those who were in the center and

center right on board of his

agenda and uh so it was it was a

deliberate strategy of moving away from

the progressive philosophy of uh FDR

Franklin Delon Roosevelt uh uh which had

you know really uh tried to change the

country with new labor legislation

Social

Security uh it was saying that that was

many years ago a half century earlier uh

we have to move on and so it was an

attempt to move the Democratic party

more to the right and I can tell you

frankly you know 30 40 30 years later I

think the country has now realized that

that particular project didn't work out

as well as we had hoped I mean I'm

obviously asking because in in this

country we're looking at the labor party

which is in a very similar situation is

trying to win over voters from the right

um is distancing itself from the

philosophy of Jeremy Corbin which was

much to the left economically perhaps

more on your Turf um he was a little bit

he was a little bit wedded to some of

the 1980s ideas and and you know this is

45 years later but but are are you

basically warning Kia stama and and the

likes of him I mean not him specifically

but politicians in his place that they

are in danger of making the same

mistakes I understand where you're

beginning and you have to get elected

and but you should also realize that if

you really want economic growth you

really have to make more investments in

people in

R&D uh in

infrastructure uh you can't tell you

hands it's really important to do more

for the NHS there's a broad consensus

about that but that's not only a social

policy that's a growth policy because if

you have a weak NHS people have to wait

a long time to get uh health care

they're out of the labor force while

they're waiting uh they can get

depressed uh there are real Economic

Consequences from having a weak Health

Care system so I'm arguing you need a a

much more aggressive uh stance and going

forward I believe very strongly that a

green

transition can be a growth enhancing

policy uh don't think about tradeoffs

that's not the issue actually uh by

focusing on a green transition you can

get a better environment and faster

economic growth right so what's his

Progressive capitalism in your terms

it's a broad concept uh and I also

sometimes use the word a rejuvenating

social democracy uh it entails a wide

array of Institutions our society is too

complex to have Central planning or

anything like that it's a capitalism

that is regulated uh competitive Works

within bounds and not just concerned

with maximizing profits it takes into

account the well-being of the workers

the communities the environment

customers um very big departure from

that shareholder value maximization that

was uh uh milon Freeman advocated but

there are other kinds of Institutions

that are really really important

government obviously but also other

forms of collective action unions Civil

Society um class action suits uh and

importantly NOS uh not for profs but but

wouldn't all mainstream politicians in

the west now say we are effectively

Progressive capitalists we believe in

regulation we don't allow the market to

run free without any kind of controls we

do have safety nets we do have welfare

states so is it just a question of where

you are on the line it is that but as

you pointed out there is a a an

inclination of many politicians to be

not far enough uh not Progressive enough

and the consequ there are real

consequences of that not enough

Investments I mean doesn't a lot of it

come though the sort of the public

skepticism about government

interventions come from this idea that

government doesn't do things well you

know and in this country people will

always heart back to the 1970s and say

well you know we had all these

nationalized industries they were

inefficient they made a mess of

everything the trains never ran on time

and you know you needed competition and

you needed the private sector to come

and uh introduce some r into all of

these things that's the neoliberal Trope

and that's what I'm trying to fight

against why was it untrue all humans are

viable and all human institutions are

going to be fallible uh and we have to

take a calm look at public and private

institutions if we look at private

institutions uh no government has wasted

money at the scale of America's private

financial institutions in the years

before 2008 and the consequences of the

misdeed in the years are in the

trillions of dollars the private

financial sector failed and then you

start thinking about other aspects say

of America that I know well uh we have a

childhood diabetes crisis caused by so

uh food companies trying to get people

to consume too much sugar everybody has

problem with their telephone company and

they're constantly complaining uh about

their internet company uh in America

where we don't have

NHS uh health insurance and Medical Care

is a mess uh if you're rich you get

really good care if you're not yeah you

have my sympathy uh so if you start

going down the list uh tobacco companies

that produce addictive products without

telling people I could go on and on and

on uh this is not just 1% of the

American economy this is embracing a

very large fraction of the private

sector of the American economy and

similar things not quite so bad in

Europe because you have quite frankly

better regulation you're not denying

that the public sector made a mess of

things you're saying that the private

sector does too yeah and I'm also saying

that the public sector has some enormous

successes we're here in part uh because

of the government success in developing

an mRNA platform that allowed for a

rapid development of the vaccine the

internet is really the basis of so much

of our modern society where government

uh even the browser that you know uh was

invented by the US government so is it

about political leadership that that

that transforms the dominant ideology

into persuading people that the state

can do things and do can do things and

that we need a broad array of

Institutions we need checks and balances

we need uh checks against government and

we need checks against the private

sector and when I talk about we need not

only checks within the government we

need checks and balances within our

society so an important part of the

checks and balances within our society I

would say is the media another important

part is Academia academic freedom so we

can have uh criticize what both the

government and the private sector does

and that's what an active media does as

well uh but if you have too much

glomeration of

wealth that checks and balances may not

work out so well so so do you believe we

all victims of a sort of a

gramsky you know hegemony you know a

dominant ideology that is underpinned by

the media and by the governments and you

know uh that's right and I'm trying to

upset that in my book and you know

one book isn't going to upset it yeah

but uh uh we need lots of conversations

and uh hopefully more and more people

will realize the situation that we're in

and and say got to change it and what's

your answer to the sort of you know when

people go well he's just an old Lefty in

a university he doesn't run anything you

know he doesn't know how private sectors

really work you know what's your answer

I I I've been engaged uh with the

private sector I haven't been justest in

an ivory Tower I spent uh 7even eight

years of my life in as a public servant

both uh at Clinton administration at the

World Bank um but also been in

international advisory Boards of a

number of big uh companies and and what

do you think would be the you know the

route from Progressive capitalism to

Greater social freedoms political

freedoms a stronger democracy if kids

grow up in poverty they're never going

to be able to live up to their potential

they aren't really free to live up to

their potential uh if companies can take

advantage of others uh that's taking

away others Freedom so it's both public

Investments that expand everybody's

freedom and regulations that

stop anybody including large

corporations from harming others right

now we have a a very big problem with

our social media uh exerting digital

harms and uh Europe is trying to do

something about these digital harms

America's not been willing to undertake

that so far that's I think uh the way to

enhance more freedom for more citizens

the other sort of um you know dominant

ideology if you like of the right is

that if you create these big

bureaucracies these regulatory regimes

you create monsters you know you you you

you create people who abuse their power

almost for the sake of it as I say you

need uh uh checks and balances in our

society if you think about how our

standards of living are so much higher

than they were 250 years ago at the time

of the Enlightenment that the ideas of

science social organization rule of law

all those ideas about how do we organize

a complex society have

proven uh uh their worth can we talk

about freedom of speech protest

obviously you're a professor at Columbia

we've see what's been going on there in

the um Pro Palestinian protests there um

what is your view of what's been going

on and the way it's been handled by the

university authorities and the police

most of uh the professors are are very

disturbed whenever you call in the

police our police are sometimes a little

rough you hope you don't normally need

to call in the police but uh

universities are special community

where we are supposed to reason together

learn uh we want to protect

people's freedom to

speech uh to

debate uh but uh also yeah the freedom

to learn so you have these conflicts one

of the points in my book is often

freedoms come in Conflict the freedom to

protest comes in conflict with the

freedom to learn uh of other students

you occupy a building yeah and and that

that obviously uh there's a conflict of

those freedoms and and uh I don't know

all the details of what went on uh I do

know that uh there's a general sentiment

that that calling in the police is a a

something of a last resort uh I don't

want to second guess where the

negotiations were and how they were

handled uh but I I I it obviously is

very upsetting but let me make uh two

other points uh one of them is that New

York uh Columbia University is in the

midst of

a a city uh and at the boundaries of the

University there are a lot of protesters

you can't easily separate out what's

going on within the campus from what's

going out outside in my part of the

campus where I my office is total quiet

so you might not see that from looking

at Hamilton Hall so what I want to

emphasize is that it's located in one

particular place a small part of a very

very large a campus the second thing I

want to emphasize uh to me I

feel very strong about the right to

protest uh I'm proud that that our

students feel empathy that they're

engaged in the

world uh I do want them to respect

others and I'm not sure these weren't my

students but I I'm not sure that all of

them did had that nature of the respect

for others that they should have had but

protests played an important part in my

own life uh I was uh down part of the

march in Washington in August

1963 Martin with their kings uh famous

March uh for civil rights for uh social

justice for

economics um he gave that wonderful

speech I Have a Dream uh it changed the

course of America yeah I mean a lot a

lot of the student leaders at the moment

are talking about the Vietnam student

protests uh and and and other you know

moments that they feel do you feel this

is such a moment and it should be

respected as such because you know

there's a lot of criticism of it there's

a lot of people saying there's

anti-Semitism there's intimidation you

know where do you sit in there yeah uh

there was a really good uh I thought

oped in the financial times today by

Henry loose who who try to uh

distinguish anti-Semitism from

anti-zionism

um the uh and the

two are at risk of blending uh with each

other and and obviously uh you know

young people sometimes uh go over the

line that's part of Youth and and we we

we we ought to be at the same time

forgiving but say there is a line and

you can't go over that line um you know

I I worry about uh young people 18 years

old getting a criminal record that will

be a stain on them for the rest of their

life uh but I also think it's important

for them to learn to respect

others um I think that

unfortunately uh some on the right some

Republicans uh who basic stance is anti-

universities I I should make that clear

um there is a strong

anti- liberal education strand in the

Republican party uh speaker Johnson came

up to Columbia knowing nothing about

what is really going on and on the steps

of our low Library called for the

resignation of our President we haven't

had that kind of interference and

academic freedom since the house on

American Activities Committee with

MacArthur McCarthy back in the 50s this

is a real violation of societal Norms um

they've been trying to undermine our

academic freedom so that worries you

more than the protest by the Sun that

worries me much more than the protest

that that but of course the protests

feed into that kind of uh attack on

academic freedom they're looking for a w

mechanism a way of undermining our

universities uh which remember as I said

earlier are part of the real strength of

the United States and if they undermine

our universities they will be

undermining our future uh

leadership uh intellectually uh

technologically and morally and and do

your own Jewish Origins um influence how

you feel about the issue itself that

they're protesting over um you know does

your identity dictate how you feel about

what's going on in the Middle East or uh

your politics part of of uh uh our

Jewish identity is concerned about the

freedom of everybody you know we just

celebrated Passover it

is uh the

holiday that

celebrates the freedom of the Jewish

people from the slavery way back in

Egypt and I think um when we have that

ceremony every every

year we think about the lack of Freedom

elsewhere uh and really connects with

with my book and we think about you know

the lack of Freedom that the slaves in

the United States at and I think that's

why we

feel uh a lot more empathy for their

history and we think uh about the lack

of Freedom uh in every part of the world

where there's been uh that kind uh where

there's been oppression I mean you've

advised many governments institutions I

I wonder whether you look at um Gaza

right now and think about what if if

there were ever to be a state a new

Palestinian state it would almost by

definition now be starting from scratch

it would be a the creation of a new

economy is that something you would be

interested in helping to shape when I

was uh in the uh World Bank

uh we engaged in trying to write reports

about the future of a Palestinian State

uh that was 25 years ago and uh things

haven't gone well and the challenge now

is even

greater uh of course I would like to do

what I could to help uh create a uh more

a prosperous uh I uh Palestinian State

and I I I think that um it's only

through the prosperity is an important

ingredient in achieving peace in the

Middle East finally if if you could

change the world W magic wand what would

you do well uh I've already sort of

given the

answer Progressive capitalism

rejuvenated social

democracy uh at at a very high level the

whole agenda that I talked about public

investment good

regulation uh uh you know appropriate

progressive taxation you think it will

happen I'm optimistic that we are moving

there this is a moment

where I would say neoliberalism is not

Deb but it's in it's death throws that

if you

read uh what is going on in both the

Democratic and Republican party uh

Democratic party is moved towards

industrial policies uh Republican party

believes in

tariffs

so uh NE liberalism as an ideology is

being left behind because it

failed uh and that's why I wrote the

book because the question

is as neoliberalism dies what's going to

replace it judges stiglet thank you very

much indeed thank you