Daniel Goleman The Father of Emotional Intelligence on Managing Emotions in the Workplace
Summary
TLDRIn this episode of 'The Future of Work,' host Jacob is joined by Daniel Goleman, renowned psychologist and author, known for popularizing emotional intelligence (EI). Daniel discusses his journey, from his academic background in psychology at Harvard to becoming a science journalist and eventually focusing on EI after encountering the work of Peter Salovey and John Mayer. He elaborates on the significance of EI in both personal and professional realms, emphasizing its growing importance in leadership. Through engaging dialogue, the podcast explores the multifaceted nature of EI, including its learnability, impact on leadership, and practical tips for enhancing one's emotional skills.
Takeaways
- 🔍 Daniel Goleman, known as the father of emotional intelligence, didn't invent the term but popularized it through his books and research.
- 🧠 Emotional intelligence (EI) involves self-awareness, self-management, empathy, and social skills, crucial for success in personal and professional life.
- 📚 The concept was initially identified in academic journals and has since been applied extensively in various sectors, including education (as social emotional learning) and the workplace.
- 🌐 EI is not just about managing one's own emotions but also understanding and influencing the emotions of others, which is vital for leadership and teamwork.
- 👥 Goleman emphasizes that EI is both learnable and teachable, contrary to misconceptions that it's a fixed trait or solely genetic.
- 💼 In professional settings, EI is linked to better leadership effectiveness and is often more influential than IQ in predicting success in managerial and team roles.
- 🏢 Organizations benefit from fostering EI among employees through formal assessments, coaching, and continuous learning opportunities.
- 🔄 Self-assessment and feedback from peers and supervisors are integral to developing EI competencies.
- 🚀 For leaders, exhibiting EI involves creating a resonant environment where they connect with their team members' emotions to drive engagement and performance.
- 🎯 Practicing mindfulness and meditation are recommended techniques for enhancing one's EI by improving focus, resilience, and emotional regulation.
Q & A
What is emotional intelligence according to Daniel Goleman?
-Daniel Goleman describes emotional intelligence as the ability to be intelligent about emotions. It includes understanding and managing one's own emotions and empathizing with the emotions of others. Emotional intelligence involves skills such as self-awareness, self-management, empathy, and social skills, which are crucial for personal and professional success.
How did Daniel Goleman become involved in studying emotional intelligence?
-Daniel Goleman, while working as a science journalist at The New York Times, came across the term 'emotional intelligence' in a journal article by psychologists Peter Salovey and John Mayer. Intrigued by the concept, which he initially thought seemed like an oxymoron, he recognized its significance in understanding how emotions and intelligence interact. This discovery prompted him to write his book 'Emotional Intelligence,' which popularized the term globally.
What is the significance of emotional intelligence in the workplace according to Goleman?
-Daniel Goleman believes that emotional intelligence is crucial in the workplace for leadership and teamwork. It sets the best leaders apart by enabling them to manage their emotions and understand the emotions of others. Emotional intelligence contributes to creating a positive work environment and improving performance, as leaders' emotional states can influence and motivate their teams.
Can emotional intelligence be learned?
-Yes, according to Daniel Goleman, emotional intelligence is both learned and learnable. He emphasizes that while individuals may have certain predispositions due to their genetic makeup, emotional intelligence skills such as empathy and self-management can be developed through feedback, life experiences, and intentional practice.
What role does emotional intelligence play in engineering, as mentioned by Goleman?
-Daniel Goleman highlights that in fields like engineering, emotional intelligence can be more indicative of effectiveness than IQ. He mentions a study where engineers rated each other's effectiveness and found no correlation with IQ but a high correlation with emotional intelligence, demonstrating its importance even in highly technical roles.
What are the types of empathy described by Goleman, and why are they important?
-Goleman describes three types of empathy: cognitive empathy (understanding how another person thinks), emotional empathy (feeling what another person feels), and empathic concern (caring about another person). These types of empathy are crucial for effective interpersonal interactions and leadership, as they enhance understanding and care within relationships.
How does Goleman suggest handling emotions at work?
-Daniel Goleman suggests that managing emotions at work involves recognizing one's own emotional states and dealing with them appropriately. He advises against venting negative emotions excessively and recommends expressing positive emotions to improve the workplace atmosphere. Effective emotional management contributes to better teamwork and leadership.
What is the impact of a leader's emotional state on their team?
-Goleman points out that a leader's emotional state is contagious and can significantly impact their team's mood and performance. Positive emotional expressions by leaders can energize and motivate their teams, while negative emotions can demoralize and reduce team performance.
What methods does Goleman recommend for improving emotional intelligence?
-Goleman recommends practices such as mindfulness meditation, focused breathing exercises, and cognitive reframing techniques to improve emotional intelligence. These methods help manage and reduce negative emotions, enhance self-awareness, and increase resilience.
What does Goleman say about the relationship between emotional intelligence and career success?
-Goleman argues that emotional intelligence can be a better predictor of career success than IQ, especially in leadership positions. As careers progress, the ability to navigate interpersonal relationships and manage one's own and others' emotions becomes increasingly important, often determining the effectiveness and longevity of a leader in their role.
Outlines
📚 Introduction to Daniel Goleman and Emotional Intelligence
Daniel Goleman, known as the father of emotional intelligence, joins a discussion about his background and the evolution of his career. From a PhD in psychology at Harvard to becoming a science journalist at The New York Times, Goleman explains his transition into studying emotions and their impact on the brain. He credits his global recognition to the popularization of the term 'emotional intelligence,' which he did not invent but made famous through his writing. The concept, he explains, integrates intelligence with emotions, leading to better self-awareness, management, and interpersonal skills, crucial for personal and professional success.
🔍 Emotional Intelligence in Engineering and Leadership
Daniel Goleman discusses how emotional intelligence sets apart effective leaders, especially with new data showing its high correlation with success in unexpected fields like engineering, where emotional intelligence, rather than IQ, better predicts job performance. Goleman emphasizes that emotional intelligence involves understanding and managing one's emotions intelligently, which can significantly influence leadership effectiveness. He also explores whether emotional intelligence is innate or learned, concluding that it is a skill that can be developed through feedback and experience, thus debunking the notion of it being solely genetic.
🧠 Advanced Insights into Emotional Intelligence
Goleman dives deeper into the nuances of emotional intelligence, discussing its three types: cognitive empathy, emotional empathy, and empathic concern, noting that even sociopaths may possess the first two. The discussion shifts to how emotional intelligence can help manage negative emotions which can otherwise limit cognitive abilities and overall performance. Goleman stresses that positive emotions, like optimism and a growth mindset, are also crucial for maintaining focus and resilience in the face of adversity, underscoring the broad impact of emotional intelligence on both personal well-being and leadership efficacy.
🌟 Expanding the Scope of Emotional Intelligence Beyond Empathy and Self-awareness
Expanding on the commonly emphasized aspects of emotional intelligence like empathy and self-awareness, Goleman introduces additional emotional competencies that distinguish outstanding leaders. He discusses emotional balance, adaptability, influence, and conflict management among others. These competencies, often fostered through feedback and coaching, are essential for effective leadership. Goleman points out the importance of managing both negative and positive emotions, advocating for authenticity rather than suppression of emotions in leadership roles.
📈 The Evolving Importance of Emotional Intelligence in Professional Growth
Goleman discusses the changing perceptions of emotional intelligence throughout one's career, with newer professionals often undervaluing it compared to technical skills. He debunks the common misconception that IQ is more critical than emotional intelligence, emphasizing that while cognitive skills get you into a role, emotional intelligence distinguishes your performance level. He also discusses how leaders lacking in emotional intelligence might achieve short-term success but often at the expense of long-term organizational health and employee satisfaction.
🧐 Techniques for Developing and Managing Emotional Intelligence
Goleman offers practical advice for developing emotional intelligence through mindfulness and self-awareness practices. He details methods such as breathing exercises, naming emotions, and mindfulness meditation, which help manage and recover from negative emotional states. Additionally, Goleman emphasizes the importance of resilience, defined as the ability to return to a calm state quickly after being upset. These techniques are not only essential for personal well-being but also enhance professional efficacy and leadership.
🔄 Addressing Emotional Overwhelm and Cognitive Therapies
When emotional intelligence techniques fail to alleviate stress, Goleman recommends strategies from cognitive therapy, such as reframing one's thoughts and focusing on positive activities that can help restore emotional balance. He introduces the Personal Sustainability Index, a tool to evaluate and balance life's stressors with positive experiences. This approach helps address deeper, persistent emotional challenges by encouraging a more comprehensive self-management strategy.
👥 Navigating Leadership Challenges with Emotional Intelligence
Goleman provides guidance on dealing with emotionally unintelligent leaders, suggesting indirect methods of influence rather than direct confrontation. He discusses strategies like utilizing allies within the organization who can provide constructive feedback to the leader. Additionally, he humorously suggests a last resort of helping such a leader find employment elsewhere. This section underscores the significance of emotional intelligence in fostering a positive work environment and retaining talent.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Emotional Intelligence
💡Leadership
💡Self-awareness
💡Empathy
💡Social Skills
💡Self-management
💡Neuroscience
💡Cognitive Empathy
💡Resonant Leadership
💡Social-Emotional Learning
Highlights
Daniel Goldman, renowned psychologist and New York Times best-selling author, shares insights on emotional intelligence and its application in leadership and the workplace.
Emotional intelligence encompasses empathy, self-awareness, self-management, and social skills, which are essential for personal and professional success.
Emotional intelligence is crucial for effective leadership, setting outstanding leaders apart from others, and creating a positive workplace environment.
Goldman emphasizes that emotional intelligence is learned and learnable, with feedback and real-time life experiences helping to improve it.
Empathy plays a critical role in emotional intelligence, with three types: cognitive, social brain, and empathic concern. Sociopaths lack empathic concern.
Emotional intelligence helps manage disturbing emotions while fostering positive ones, leading to better performance and adaptability in the workplace.
Naming a negative emotion helps shift energy from the emotional brain to the prefrontal cortex, aiding in managing emotions and reducing stress.
Breathing exercises can quickly calm the body and mind, transitioning from sympathetic nervous system arousal to a more relaxed state.
Mindfulness and meditation can help manage emotions by strengthening the brain's ability to focus and recover from stress.
Leaders with positive emotional states influence their team's emotions and performance, demonstrating the contagious nature of a leader's mood.
Goldman discusses practical techniques for managing negative emotions, including breathing exercises, mindfulness, and cognitive therapy.
Goldman outlines competencies of outstanding leaders, including emotional balance, adaptability, optimism, goal orientation, and conflict management.
To improve emotional intelligence, Goldman suggests getting feedback through 360 assessments, working with coaches or learning partners, and practicing at every opportunity.
Creating an emotionally intelligent organization requires ongoing support, feedback, and a focus on emotional intelligence development.
The Resident Leader concept emphasizes leaders who connect with and inspire others, resonating with their shared mission and fostering a positive emotional climate.
Transcripts
hello everyone welcome to another
episode of the future of work i am
joined today by daniel goldman the
father as he is known of emotional
intelligence he's a renowned
psychologist and new york times
best-selling author of several books
including emotional intelligence social
intelligence and primal leadership
daniel thank you for joining me today
jacob it's a real pleasure to be here
thank you for having me
of course of course um why don't we get
started with a little bit of background
information about you
i was
on your website and reading i think you
wrote like a long thing on there on your
website directly from you it talks about
your background and history which is
fascinating
uh so give us a little bit of background
about you how did you even get involved
with emotional intelligence and studying
this stuff
well i i do have a
phd in psychology from harvard actually
but
i ended up being a science journalist at
the new york times and i was covering
what they called the decade of the brain
this is a while ago when there was there
were a lot of new discoveries
particularly about emotions in the brain
and i wanted to write about that and by
the way i didn't invent the phrase
emotional intelligence i just made it
famous
the guy who invented the phrase is now
the president of yale university pete
peter salovey
with his then graduate student john
mayer
and i saw that they had written as an
article called emotional intelligence
in a very obscure journal my job at the
times was to look at all the journals
and see what's newsworthy what's
interesting what's relevant and then
make that an article in times and
i i thought wow emotional intelligence
what a great phrase it seems like
an oxymoron how can you have
intelligence and emotions but then
i realized
it means being intelligent about emotion
and so i i use that as the frame for the
book i wrote
emotional intelligence which became a
global bestseller it's in more than 40
languages
these days
and
that kind of launched another career for
me where i started going to companies
and organizations and schools i became
very big in schools under the name
social emotional learning which means
teaching kids k through 12
the basics of emotional intelligence
which are self-awareness
self-management empathy and social skill
and we all need those in to get along in
life and
actually it turns out to be outstanding
in the workplace
and i think as we go forward into the
future it's going to matter even more
was there something about this field of
study that
particularly intrigued you because as a
psychologist you could have gone into so
many different areas and specializations
why emotions
well we all have them all the time
it seems it seemed utterly relevant
even when we think we don't have them we
do have them
uh the brain is wired to
like to dislike to react continually
and this is part of a survival mechanism
in in our you know human history and
it's hard stamped in all of our brains
can't avoid it
yeah no
everybody does have emotions as you said
uh well we're going to talk about
emotional intelligence and leadership so
i thought it only makes sense to maybe
start with an explanation of both of
those things so first
i'm really curious to hear your take on
what is leadership or what does it mean
to be a leader how do you define that
i think that
having a sphere of influence means
you're a de facto leader
and in that sense i think we're all
leaders whether it's our family and
friends or
an organization with a formal title
it comes down to whether people listen
to you respect what you say
and are guided by what you say
so i think that leadership applies in
all spheres of life
okay and then how do you define or
explain emotional
intelligence well once i wrote about
emotional intelligence i
went back to my psychology
background
i started working with an old friend of
mine a colleague
richard boyatzis who's at the now case
weatherhead school management at uh
in
cleveland
and
at case western reserve
and
he and i
had been students of david mcclellan at
harvard
who was one of the people who developed
the idea of a competence a workplace
ability that makes you outstanding
compared to other people
and competencies can be learned and it
turns out that there's a set of about a
dozen competencies within the domain of
emotional intelligence that uh
are hallmarks of people who are the best
leaders so i've been working uh with
richard and others along those lines
since because it turns out that
emotional intelligence sets the best
leaders apart from others
and by the way this is interesting new
data even in areas you wouldn't think
it's true
engineers at a global manufacturing
company rated each other on how
effective
are
are these guys as engineers or are you
as an engineer it turned out that
engineers ratings of other engineers
effectiveness had zero correlation with
iq in a very high correlation with
emotional intelligence i love that you
mentioned new data because i always love
new data and research
that's you know fascinating example for
engineers
so emotional intelligence then like you
said is being intelligent and being
intelligent about your emotions
so if we put those things together an
emotionally intelligent leader would be
someone with a sphere of influence who
is intelligent about their emotions sure
okay
um
and
one thing that i'm always fascinated
about this topic is
is emotional intelligence something that
you learn or is it genetic and i asked
because i did a
23andme test a couple years ago
and through 23andme you can take all the
data and download it and put it into
something called prometheus which
basically does all this you know looks
at the genes and all this
all that stuff in there
and uh my wife and i were laughing
because we were looking at my
genetics and it basically said
um
you might be missing an empathy gene and
so you might
you might not be good at empathy based
on your genetics and i was like
yeah yeah and i was like wait a minute
is that is that a thing
so it really just made me wonder is
is this
a genetic thing or is this something we
can all learn
so emotional intelligence is learned and
learnable and i think 23andme is
overselling what they know
because everything is a combination of
nature and nurture you get your genetic
makeup but that doesn't limit you that's
what you start with
and so for example for empathy
uh
it's
it's definitely learnable you can
definitely amp it up but you need
feedback you need life experience need
to
realize that when i assume such and such
about how she was feeling or he was
feeling it was right or was wrong
that's how you get better at this
so
feedback
in real time is very important for
enhancing emotional intelligence
abilities across the board
and i
you know some people
may
on a 23andme type test
look like they have
a good empathy basis but that's just
where they start
your life experience is going to
determine where you end up
no i love that and i actually remember
seeing
some study or some research that
basically said even sociopaths can be
emotionally intelligent like you can you
can still practice these things and um
and implement them even if you have you
know are clinically a sociopath well
here's here's the problem with that
uh there are three kinds of empathy each
of which is based on a different set of
brain circuits
there's cognitive empathy i know how you
think about things i know the words to
use to communicate with you effectively
there's social brain
empathy which means i feel what you feel
a sociopath can have those two kinds of
empathy
and
make his or her way in the world pretty
well what they lack is the third kind
it's called empathic concern
and it's based in the mammalian
caretaking circuitry it's basically a
parent's love for a child
and it means i care about you sociopaths
don't have that by definition they just
don't care
about their victims
interesting i did not know that
uh so when we think about emotional
intelligence how many which which
emotions go into that i know you've
written about this extensively
um so what are the emotions that go into
that intelligence uh grouping
uh every emotion you've ever felt
anything and so yes anger disgust
sadness all of that as a partner however
here's what emotional intelligence tells
you
if you're in a negative emotional state
it
because the way the brain is wired
you're narrowing the bandwidth of your
other capabilities your cognitive
abilities whatever talents you may have
because emotions
the way the brain is designed and wired
take up a huge amount of space in fact
emotional distractions that thing she
said to me that got me so upset
are far stronger than external
distractions it's going to cop your
intelligence your
attention continually
so emotional intelligence helps you
manage disturbing emotions and it also
encourages you
to have positive emotions to have an
optimistic outlook so they call it a
growth mindset these days you know
i can get better other people can get
better
uh you don't feel that way when you're
entrapped by a negative emotion it helps
you keep your eye on your goals
no matter what else is going on because
we all need to do it helps you adapt
helps you be agile
we absolutely need to do that these are
all competencies by the way of
outstanding leaders and they're based on
emotional intelligence abilities because
people leaders need to first lead
themselves and that means manage your
inner life
then you can lead others you can tune
into them with empathy
and then this is really important
it turns out that a leader's emotional
state
is contagious it leaks out to the people
around them it's just very natural
for people to pay most attention to and
put most importance on what the most
powerful people person in the room says
and does
so the leader's emotions affect
other people's emotions
and not only that that in turn drives
performance so if the leader is in a
negative state people catch that
negative state their performance goes
down
if they're in a but the leaders in a
positive state pretty enthusiastic
energetic people catch that their
performance goes up so it it's not just
a private thing
leaders should know that their
state their interstate is going to leak
that's part of their leadership is
managing themselves
so can you just always fake being in a
positive state can you just show up all
the time like hey how's it going like
i'm great everything's fine
because there's also this talk of um
wanting more transparency and more
authenticity and
you know we want that from leaders right
if you're upset tell us if you're
frustrated tell us but that also seems
counterintuitive to the whole idea of if
you're always positive and optimistic
it's going to improve performance it
rubs off onto others
so should i as a leader
show my frustrations if i'm upset too
i think authentic is the key word here
uh if you fake it
people might
sense that pretty easily
that you're always upbeat even when
you're really down
so i think it's better to clear the air
and say you know
i really had a bad time with the kids
this morning they just wouldn't get
ready for school
and i'm a little bummed about it because
by naming it this is really interesting
it turns out that the brain is arranged
so that if you name a negative emotion
it already takes energy from that state
and it shifts it to the
prefrontal cortex which is the brain's
boss the ceo of the brain it helps you
manage emotions so if you talk about it
just by the act of talking about it
you're managing it
i am terrible at that uh
i am not good at talking about my
emotions at all my wife right here
should jump in and be like yeah he sucks
at that
um
so i'm trying to get better of like
saying i'm tired i'm stressed i'm
frustrated i'm angry i'm unhappy
uh
yeah i'm genuinely not good at those
things at all so i'm trying to to work
on those things because i agree i think
it's important and when i say it i feel
a little bit better
about myself and i can talk about these
things with my wife or members of my
team so i i think there's a lot of value
and like you said naming that emotion i
also think it's interesting though for a
lot of um traditional things like iq
it seems like in those areas sometimes
it's easier to manipulate or fake
something but when it comes to emotion
we're very good at picking up
when somebody's faking it or being not
authentic
it's it's weird it's like something is
as humans has embedded us or we can just
pick up
yeah i think that we have radar for
example
we read facial we read emotions from
facial expressions do you know the
difference between a fake smile and a
real smile
is it the
under the eyes is it the it's the crow
it's the crow's up because yeah so uh
crow's feet when when we're really happy
at first you're gonna have the crow's
feet but then as you hold it you're
starting to fake it
and they disappear
i think that our brain is wired to
notice these little subtle cues
and to start wondering does he really
mean it does she is she faking this or
not
yeah no it's it's crazy it's like built
into us it's very weird
so what a lot of people think about
emotional intelligence you know the two
that
come to mind especially for leaders is
usually empathy and self-awareness right
uh putting yourself in somebody else's
shoes and perspective and
understanding
your self-awareness and how other people
perceive you
besides those i feel like maybe a lot of
people might not be aware of some of the
other
important emotions specifically for
leaders and you were talking about some
of the things that great leaders do so i
thought maybe we could expand on that a
little bit going beyond just empathy and
self-awareness to looking at some of the
other things that are crucial too yes so
i look at it in terms of the
competencies that you find in
outstanding leaders and star performers
and it doesn't it turns out it doesn't
have to do with their emotions we all
have the full range of emotions but how
well you manage it self-management
emotional balance turns out to be a
competence of outstanding leaders
uh other self-management competencies
and
self self management means handling
disturbing emotions so they don't
what you're doing
and
fostering positive emotions that help
you do what you're doing so
others are as i said adaptability
being able to be flexible and meeting
challenges as they come
being able to
stay positive no matter what happens
and
you know to look on bright on the bright
side about yourself about other people
about situations
uh and
these are and then keeping your eye on
the goal
no matter what the distractions my god
there's so many distractions these days
infinite but still are you doing what's
most important in the long term this is
a question to ask yourself so those are
the self-management competencies
and then
empathy knowing what other people are
feeling
lets you for example
be a good team member team player lead a
team well
be able to influence people effectively
guide them
give them performance feedback as needed
here's one that you may not think of
being able to inspire people to
articulate a shared sense of meaning or
purpose in what we're doing here that
resonates with other people that is
creates an extremely positive emotional
climate huge positive motivation
people feel their work is meaningful
and then being able to handle conflicts
to
surface them before they explode for
example
these are all abilities of outstanding
leaders and by the way no one leader is
outstanding at all of them we have
profiles we're better or worse at some
of them
richard boyances who i mentioned before
and i have designed
uh an assessment it's called the
emotional social competence inventory
that where people who know you well rate
you
on these competencies of outstanding
leaders and you get a profile then you
can decide oh well maybe i'll work on my
influence i'll work on managing my
emotions
but that's up to you
but it's helpful to get
uh
authentic real feedback from people who
know you well and who you trust
on what your strengths are and what you
could be better at
why can't you just be really good at
your job
why do you need emotional intelligence
because
i think we've seen
you know the last 10
25 years
i feel like a lot of leaders have gotten
into very successful positions that were
not emotionally intelligent and you know
a lot of people work for these types of
leaders our engagement scores are so low
around the world
so somebody might say well you know why
do i need emotional intelligence
my leader's not emotional intelligent
look how successful he or she is
why should i be doing this stuff yeah
there's a huge problem with the fact
that people got promoted to leadership
positions because they were good at a
task
task however it turned out they were
hollowing out the human capital people
hate those kind of bosses
this is the problem and now there's what
they call the great resignation
people are resigning right and left and
one of the main reasons people leave is
i can't stand my boss
so
you may be good at a job in terms of the
objective measures of the job i'm really
good at programming i'm really good but
it turns out
that it's all done with people
and if you're the leader of people you
need emotional intelligence to work well
with the people you're leading it's just
a fact and it very interesting data you
say you're interested in new data yes a
study
that showed that people
high-level executives
said emotional intelligence is extremely
important to leadership
like ninety percent
new hires people new to their career say
oh no it doesn't matter it's all tech
skills in other words there's a learning
curve over the course of a career where
you see oh you know what it does matter
uh so people may think
particularly coming out of an academic
situation because in academics it's all
cognitive
it's all how well did you do on the test
uh you know how what was your gpa how
well it was your what were your gres
whatever it may be
but once you get in the workplace it's
how well you work with other people and
no matter how smart you are that's not
going to help
i know there's also this this big debate
between uh iq and
there was this big debate between iq and
eq and everybody
uh you know we did iq tests all the time
i i remember i had to do an iq test when
i was very young and it was like well if
you want to get into a good school
what's your iq nobody ever
tested me for eq nobody talked about my
emotions it was just like yeah what's
your iq score
um and so there's always this big kind
of debate right and it feels like these
two things are oftentimes pitted against
each other do you need iq or eq what's
more important
however
they operate differently
um you need a certain level of cognitive
ability
to be a lawyer to be an accountant to
get an mba or a master's degree you need
about a standard deviation above the
norm which is around
11415 but it's very interesting there's
a floor effect which means that everyone
else who's in a position that you're in
has about the same iq
yeah and
what distinguishes people
is their emotional intelligence
some people may have a lot some people
may have little they may have critical
elements of it
it turns out that over the course of
your career
what's going to make the difference as
to whether you're an outstanding leader
not just an average one or one who
drives people away is your emotional
intelligence i have a friend
claudio fernandez arose he used to be
the head of research at egon's end or a
big executive recruitment firm and he
said
we looked at people we had hired who
were then fired they looked great on
paper
they had real expertise a lot of
business experience
but we found invariably when they were
fired it was because of a lapse in
emotional intelligence
yeah that's interesting
uh can you have one and not the other so
for example can you be very high on eq
and low on iq
and can you have very high iq and very
low eq and
maybe you could talk about how that kind
of a person would function in the world
depending on if you're very high on one
or very high on the other
well someone with high emotional
intelligence
and not very high iq might still be very
good in sales for example they might be
very good in
any situation that relies on
relationships because
their emotional intelligence would make
them very gifted there
uh they may might need to work with
someone else who knows the basics you
know the specifics
but they could have very good
relationships with clients and customers
someone who had very high iq
and very low emotional intelligence
might be very good in a position where
they were working with numbers by
themselves
or coding by themselves
but more and more work is done these
days on teams
and
they would have a problem when it came
to getting along with team members
i saw some data that suggested that
people who had a very very high iq
were not actually very good leaders
because they didn't know how to talk to
people they didn't know how to
communicate they were
too abstract because that's the way they
think and they assumed other people
would be there with them but so they
they had a breakdown in communication
it's funny i remember um oh man when did
i read this this must have been three
years ago and it was on hbr
and i referenced this in in my book as
well and it said that one of the things
that i think managers it was either that
one of the things that they are not good
at or felt most uncomfortable doing
was having one-on-one conversations with
their team members
which i found to be
weird because if you are leading others
part of your role is to have one-on-one
conversations with
your team members exactly
and it said that that was one of the
things that managers felt most
uncomfortable doing like they just did
not want to have those conversations
uh so it's interesting that you
mentioned conversation because i think i
mean part of being a you need to be a
good communicator right i'm sure
emotional intelligence is a big part of
it
one of the competencies
excuse me one of the competencies that
we found
in outstanding leaders high performing
leaders
is being a coach or mentor
which means you have to have a
one-on-one conversation you have to get
to know the person
yeah and it turns out that
having that conversation creates a very
positive feeling in the person you have
it with they have immense loyalty they
feel seen they feel heard
so it makes a big difference so the data
that you saw in in hbr
suggests to me that a lot of managers
need to get better at the coaching of
competence
because the people they're leading would
really
feel good about it they would feel
my manager cares about my career
development my manager cares about me
and
that means that i'm going to care about
my manager and i'm going to want to give
my best not just do just good enough you
mentioned disengagement is very low i
see those two things as connected
yep
well when i interviewed so for my recent
book i was engaging in his highs
disengagement is high yeah
so i interviewed 140 ceos uh from my
recent book the future leader and i
asked all of them about
what are the most crucial mindsets and
skill sets that you think current uh and
aspiring leaders need to have so there
were four mindsets and five skills
and one of the skills they identified
was actually the skill of the coach like
you mentioned helping make other people
more successful so there's definitely a
lot of alignment there
um
you mentioned this idea of managing
emotions this is also something i am
admittedly not that great at so i
thought we could give um
listeners and viewers some guidance and
feedback on
on how to do that
um so where do you begin and i suppose
you also need to manage
the bad emotions but you also need to
manage the good emotions and i think of
myself for example as an entrepreneur
and when i first became an entrepreneur
you know you close your first project or
your first deal and you get that you get
that emotional high right
but you need to manage that too because
it's very tempting to be like oh my god
i got my first project i'm gonna go
spend all my money i'm gonna like you
know party
so you have to manage the highs and also
the lows interesting
so
how do you go about managing your
emotions whether they're positive or
negative in the workplace
it's interesting that we use the term
emotional balance
yeah or this ability because you need to
balance it
uh you know you you don't want to be
manic
and when something good happens you feel
ecstatic and you're going to like blow
all your money
you need to manage that of course
but on the other hand
that is i would say a
less common far less
common the negative emotions
nothing's happening this isn't working
i'm no good this kind of thinking which
creates anxiety it creates depression i
think people more often are challenged
by handling their negative emotions
and i'll give you three methods if you'd
like
yes please
one is well tested it's actually used by
special forces it's used all over the
place it has to it's a quick way to go
from uh being upset it's called
sympathetic nervous system arousal
to be to recovery mode parasympathetic
nervous system arousal
and it's a simple breathing technique
where you inhale as long as you can
like a count of four at least
inhale deeply
hold it as long as you can at least a
count of four
and then you exhale as long as you can
and it turns out if you do that six to
nine times it actually shifts
your physiology
from being upset to being relaxed
that's one interesting thing to do on
the spot
just breathing that's fascinating
another thing you can do on the spot as
i mentioned earlier is name what's going
on
i'm getting anxious now
or to yourself or to another person uh
i'm getting angry now
the the fact that you can name it
suggests that you're shifting the energy
from the part of the brain that feels it
to the part of the brain that manages it
and the third thing you can do is uh
kind of as a mindfulness practice
i don't know if you've talked about
mindfulness on your show jacob
i have yes yeah but it turns out i i
just
i did a book recently with richard
davidson who's a neuroscientist at the
university of wisconsin where we
reviewed all of the good studies sound
the most sound studies on meditation and
mindfulness
and we found that you know what it's
it's mind training it's training the
brain it really works
and uh if you practice mindfulness
you know 10 minutes 20 minutes a day
what it does
is
strengthen the part of your brain that
manages negative emotion
so that you are triggered less often
when you're triggered it's less strong
and you recover more quickly the actual
definition of resilience in cognitive
science is how long it takes you to go
from the peak of upset
back to calm
and the quicker that curve
the more resilient you are
so mindfulness enhances calmness it also
it's a twofer because the same circuitry
helps you focus it enhances
concentration
so
i i recommend a simple breath meditation
i don't know if you want me to go
through the instructions please
yes but uh here's what you do
it's really simple there's no belief
system required it's just simple mind
training
and bring your focus to your breath you
can close your eyes sit up so you're
you're in a
relaxed but dignified posture it helps
you stay more attentive you bring your
attention to your breath
and stay with the full in-breath and the
full out breath
the space between breaths and then start
with the next breath the full in-breath
the full out breath
it's that simple you just keep your
attention on your breath if you there's
a place you can feel the sensation or
the rise and fall of your belly with
each breath
when your mind wanders and it's going to
wander and you notice it wandered bring
it back to your breath and start again
with the next breath it's that simple
the real action here is when you notice
that your mind wandered and you bring it
back
because that strengthens the circuitry
for staying focused and ignoring
distractions
and that's going to be the first payoff
for you very gradually you'll notice i
can focus on my work and i'm less
distractible now
you'll also notice slowly and gradually
that you're more calm
but
there's a dose response relationship
here the more you do it the better the
effects will be so if you want to start
with
five minutes or ten minutes a day great
whatever you'll do there's a saying the
best meditation the best mindfulness is
the one you'll do
whatever that may be
and you may have to you know move around
things in your daily schedule so
to make this a priority it's like going
to the gym every time you bring your
mind back your strength in the circuitry
it's but it's
exactly like going to the gym and
lifting a weight every time you do a rep
yeah you make that muscle that much
stronger
so make time for it and give it priority
in your day
if you want to have the effect
whatever you bring to work to help you
be you workplace from facebook
celebrates it their familiar features
help everyone work together in new ways
to make your place of work a great place
to work visit
workplace.com forward slash human
that's workplace dot com forward slash
human
yeah my wife is very good at meditation
and um
and just breathing and
just understanding that stuff and
one of the things i've always struggled
with when i try to do that is my mind is
just like a
ping pong ball it's like a just ping
ping ping ping ping
and as soon as i close my eyes i'm just
like whoa like
million thoughts popped into my head
i gotta open my eyes because otherwise
i'm just like going nuts over here
um
but i think you're right it's like
exercise right the first time you go to
the gym you're like
yeah i can't do this this is too hard
but it's the same with meditation same
with mindfulness the reason you think
your mind is like that
and i can't do this is because your
mind's always like that you just never
noticed
so when you try to
bring your mind to one place the fact
that it wanders all over
it becomes really stark
and many people get discouraged at the
outset for exactly that reason jacob
they think oh gosh my mind's like a
ping-pong ball it's all over the joint
but
the more you stay with it the more you
bring your mind back the less true that
becomes but at the beginning it's going
to be like that don't let it down
okay so it sounds like
to manage negative emotions let's say
you're an employee at a company you just
had a terrible meeting with your manager
or a client uh meeting didn't go well
you're feeling very upset frustrated
probably just take some time you do that
breathing exercise that we talked about
in the beginning
is step one
step two you would name that emotion
basically like i feel disappointed i
feel frustrated my manager didn't have
my back or you know the client
chewed me out for not doing something
the right way
and then number three is that kind of
the the mindfulness piece you know the
meditation piece if you want to call it
that i'll give you number four
yes
it's it's taken from cognitive therapy
you may be catastrophizing because you
had that bad interaction you may think
oh man i'm no good at this i'm going to
lose my job
that's extra
and
the good thing
that cognitive therapy points out is you
do not have to believe your thoughts
interesting you think it but it
think think twice about that
because you're going to an extreme
you're making assumptions it may not be
true in fact you may be very good at
your job in most ways
remind yourself of that at the moment
that you're telling yourself you're no
good at it and
talk back to the negative self-talk
it's funny you mentioned that the first
visual that popped into my head when you
said you don't have to believe your
thoughts is uh
uh an episode from seinfeld
where uh george costanza is trying to or
no jerry's trying to take a lie detector
test
and uh
george costanza is trying to give him
some advice and he's like uh you know
it's it's not a lie if you believe it
so basically
you know you can go against your
thoughts if you believe it it's not a
lot so it reminded me of that where
just because you think it doesn't mean
you have to
actually believe it
yeah as much as i admire george costanza
he's a lovable character in some ways
harassable in others
i'm not sure that was really good advice
that he gave me his friend no i would i
would not want to emulate the life of
george costanza
um
okay so those are i think four fantastic
uh
tips or strategies that people can use
to kind of combat that
the negative emotions
does that ever happen where those four
don't work
and you're just still
just going nuts um and you're just up
you know
inconsolable so to speak like is
is there like a a backup or a safety
library if those things aren't working
out for you you know um
i mentioned richard boyances he and i do
a lot of work together we just develop
something called the personal
sustainability index
which is a way of looking at all the
things in your life that stress you out
that upset you
and then all the things in your life
that balance that that help you recover
because what you're saying is that the
emergency
methods didn't work for you
and you're staying pretty stressed out
the question is what can you do
that will counter that i mean uh maybe
you go for a walk in the woods or maybe
you
talk to your best buddy or maybe you
uh play with a kid
in other words there are lots of things
you can do that put you in a positive
state
now the critical question is day in and
day out do you have enough of those to
balance the times when you just can't
take it anymore yeah and uh so we we
give people a menu of that
maybe do you have show notes jacob maybe
you can put that in the notes yeah yeah
no definitely we'll have a description
when we put all this up so yeah i'll get
some links for you to include
uh it sounds like one of the
biggest mistakes that leaders and maybe
individuals can make is to try to power
through things uh you know we've all
kind of experienced that right when
um
things aren't going your way when you
you feel bad or you're unhappy and
you're just like i just gotta power
through it i just gotta be that tank and
act like nothing's bothering me it seems
like that
is not a good way to go um when you're
dealing with some unhappy emotions
you need to pause and reflect and
take time to acknowledge them
yeah i would agree with that but i would
also say don't give up your goal
keep your eye on the goal
just because it didn't work this time
doesn't mean it won't work the next time
yeah so
acknowledge what happened and oh man
that felt so bad
but i still want to do this i'm still
working toward that
okay keep going
yeah
what do you do if you work for a leader
who's not
emotionally
intelligent i get this question all the
time i'm sure you do
um lots of employees who are just like
you know what
the stuff that daniel's talking about is
great i wish
my leader would practice these things
but they don't
and
you know what am i going to do
so i'm often asked this question i'll
give you a couple of answers one is
i i i'll give you a caution do not tell
your leader you have no eq
don't
they suck at this
okay because that's going to backfire on
you however
if you have an ally who is able to talk
to your boss
someone that your boss respects who you
can talk to openly
and who might suggest to your boss that
they
could do better in this realm and help
them
go ahead with that if you have that
situation
then there's kind of a
flippant answer but sometimes it works
which is get your boss's resume and send
it out to an executive recruiter
they might get a good job somewhere else
yeah and i think that's actually
important because there's nothing that
says you have to work for a leader who's
not emotionally intelligent
uh because that can be very frustrating
it can be very disengaging it can be
tolerant actually
yeah and life is short right you why
would you want to spend time working for
this kind of a person who doesn't
acknowledge uh that this is how they are
and doesn't want to change
but so you're saying not to tell your
leader that they're not emotionally
intelligent but
is it possible to have a conversation
with them directly
uh in a in a certain way or is it just
like a typical
let me restate that if you're skilled if
you have enough of a relationship with
the boss
where the boss will listen to you and
respect what you say
uh actually i think that boss is
probably emotionally intelligent
i have a stereotype of people who aren't
which in my mind makes them closed to
that kind of conversation but if you
have the possibility and you're good at
how you put things and you don't do it
in an accusatory way but you say you
know
you might be better at x if you did y
and your boss would listen to you sure
go ahead
how do you create emotional
intelligence in others so maybe you're a
leader and you want members of your team
to be emotionally intelligent or your
peers i'm just doing an article for the
harvard business review on how to create
an emotionally intelligent organization
and it turns out that the biggest
uh
biggest improvement in emotional
intelligence
doesn't come in trying to hire for it
that's very dicey
but rather in helping people develop it
and there's a lot of methodologies
for developing emotional intelligence
that are used in corporations in
organizations now
so i would say
uh to help people find a program that
works for them or a coach
if you're at a certain level in the
organization that may
work out too from a payback point of
view
but as i said it's all learned and
learnable there are four or five basic
steps one is
you ask yourself or ask the person do
you really care
because if the answer is no you can stop
right there
yeah because it's going to take a little
effort it's going to take some time
the next thing is to get a good
evaluation
whether it's from
you know talking to people
or this emotional social competence
inventory something like that a 360
where people evaluate you anonymously
and you get the
information aggregated so you don't know
who said what then people can be much
more open with you
yeah and then um
uh
have someone you can work with who's
going to help you whether it's a coach
or someone leading
this development effort
someone you can talk to when you have a
bad day
having having learning partners but also
someone to support you and also
practicing at every naturally occurring
opportunity that's really going to make
a difference
you mentioned there were some
methodologies that organizations use to
instill emotional intelligence can you
share maybe what some of those are
well as i mentioned some
organizations at the top of the house
will have people coached
and booch can work with you
there's a
i'm starting a group the
goldman consulting group to help
corporations bring
learning teams
really uh help people get better
but do it
with a group you select for yourself
people who give you feedback people you
work with people you like
who will form a team to help you improve
is it to help your talents get better
those are two methodologies there are
some methodologies that are proven not
to work one is called spray and pray
where you have an expert come in for two
hours and talk about this and
you know how great it is and then leave
and then you get no support because it
takes ongoing practice however you can
do it
yeah
how do you tell
if someone has emotional intelligence or
if you have emotional intelligence are
there specific signs that you look out
for
one of them uh
is pretty intuitive
which is is this person liked
people who are most intelligent tend to
be likeable you know people get along
with them they get along with people
does this person
you know vent
constantly vent negative emotions that
suggest they're not very good at it
uh does this person seem to know how
other people see them it's another sign
of emotional intelligence
uh in other words you look for signs
does it when i'm with this person and
talking to this person do they care
about me do i feel seen and heard that's
another one
okay
well we only have a couple minutes left
so just a few more questions for you um
and one of them is can you show too much
emotion at work there's a lot of talk
about emotional intelligence
but
some people believe well if you know if
you just walk around work all day just
showing all your emotions that's
probably also not that great either
so how do you balance uh
how
authentic or transparent or emotional
you are i talked about managing emotions
one of the ways someone who's authentic
might manage emotions is by saying what
they're feeling
but not venting
not going around like tearing their hair
all day or upsetting other people
that's someone who is i would say overly
emotional in the wrong way
someone who feels very upbeat and very
enthusiastic and shares that with people
i think that's fine i think that's good
i think it helps the emotional
atmosphere the emotional climate of the
workplace
so i would say it depends what emotion
you're showing all the time if it's a
downbeat emotions not so great manage
that internally manage it yourself
manage it with
someone you can talk to
but if it's a positive emotion let it
out
and it's interesting that emotional
intelligence is not about
showing your emotions as you said it's
about being intelligent
about your emotions that's a
big difference between just showing
versus being intelligent about them
um maybe one of the last questions for
you i think there are a lot of myths
about emotional intelligence
you know what they are how to practice
them
are there some common myths that you
keep hearing about emotional
intelligence that you want people to not
believe
yeah one of them is that iq doesn't
matter only emotional intelligence iq
matters
to a degree but you need both it's not
either or
the other
big myth is that emotional intelligence
matters and iq or cognitive abilities or
cognitive talents don't that's a myth
they both matter um okay
um and are there any particular leaders
that you can point to that you think are
emotionally intelligent that maybe our
viewers or listeners might wanna
emulate or learn more about you know i
think the dalai lama is a great example
of someone who's mostly intelligent
he's not a business leader but he's
definitely a world leader
uh i think that um there probably are
some
uh
ceos who might be emotionally
intelligent but i don't know any of them
well enough to say for sure yeah
and last question for you just because
uh this is something you talked about in
one of your recent books uh the concept
of the resident leader
and i know that's a whole big topic but
i thought we could just tease a tiny
little bit of it
so that people can
learn more about what that means and who
that kind of a leader is yeah the
resident leader is one that people
feel connected to who articulates as i
said a shared mission that really moves
people
so that they resonate with
with what the leader says and does
a leader who
is influential in an easy way who gives
feedback in an ongoing way
that people can actually use it's like
news to use not just an attack on a
person
people who manage themselves well
and who empathize who tune in to other
people who know how other people are
are feeling and and can respond
accordingly there's a set of primers by
the way on all these competencies it's
called building blocks of emotional
intelligence
if you want to learn more about empathy
or about influence about inspiring or
emotional balance
you might want to get
some of these
and i'm assuming that's just something
somebody can google just building blocks
emotional intelligence
from keystep media
okay all right i'll try to link to that
too
okay
um
well and then it sounds like to practice
emotional intelligence we're not talking
about
crazy commitments here right small
things that people can do on a regular
basis to become more emotionally
intelligent which it sounds like um
that's what you're advocating for
it's like life it's a work in progress
yeah
i love it uh well daniel where can
people go to learn more about you and
your work i know you have a podcast with
your son which is amazing uh so anything
that you want to mention for people to
check out sure uh the podcast is called
first person singular
and it's on all the podcast venues
first person singular
emotional intelligence and beyond is the
full name
i have a newsletter at linkedin which is
free to subscribe to
and one of the things i'm i'm talking
about these days is misconceptions about
emotional intelligence as well as latest
kind of breaking news on emotional
intelligence so there's a linkedin
newsletter
we're going to be setting up
goldman consulting group i don't think
there's a website yet but there's about
to be
and
i have my own website daniel
goldman dot info wwe danielgome and
oneword.info
and you just google me i'm i'm on the
web
yeah you're pretty easy to find are you
working on another book by any chance
uh yes but i'm not exactly sure what i'm
going to say yet so it will be related
to this article i'm doing
for harvard business review on building
an emotional intelligent organization
all right very cool we will stay tuned
to that
daniel again thank you so much for
taking time out of your day i love the
tips and this is such an important topic
so appreciate you sharing your insights
with us jacob you're very easy to talk
to i suspect you have more emotional
intelligence than you allow or that you
know
i'm gonna
cut that clip and i'm gonna i'm gonna
play that to everybody so when somebody
says anything yeah i'll say you know
what daniel goldman actually said i have
some
well thank you again so much for taking
time out of your day and thanks everyone
for tuning in my guest again daniel
goldman all you gotta do is google his
name you'll find out pretty much
anything that you need to know about him
check out his books and check out his
podcast and i will see all of you next
time thanks again for tuning in to the
show and don't forget to go to
sixleadershiptrends.com
to grab a copy of my brand new pdf which
is going to walk you through the six
trends that are shaping leadership and
what it means to be a leader and it will
also give you action items for what you
should be doing for each one of these
six trends to adapt and evolve so that
you can be a better leader in the future
of work again that is six
leadershiptrends.com you can either
spell out the number six in the url or
just use the number six in the url they
will both take you to the same place
thanks again for tuning in
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