LIMASAWA vs BUTUAN " A Debate About The First Mass in the Philippines"
Summary
TLDRThe Hiraya Podcast presents a debate about where the first mass in the Philippines took place: Limasawa or Butuan. Both teams provide arguments supported by historical accounts from figures like Antonio Pigafetta and Francisco Albo, with the proposition backing Limasawa as the location and the opposition claiming it occurred in Butuan. Throughout the debate, the teams examine geographical descriptions, eyewitness testimony, and archaeological evidence, leaving the audience to ponder which side is correct. The podcast concludes by inviting listeners to share their opinions on the historical controversy.
Takeaways
- 🎤 The podcast episode focuses on a debate about the location of the first mass in the Philippines—whether it occurred in Limasawa or Butuan.
- 📜 The debate is between two groups: the proposition team supporting Limasawa and the opposition team supporting Butuan.
- 🗺️ The proposition side references Republic Act 2733 and the accounts of Antonio Pigafetta and Francisco Albo to assert that the first mass took place in Limasawa.
- 📖 The opposition side argues that Butuan is the correct location, citing historical accounts and evidence like the discovery of ancient balangay boats and the writings of historian Father Fernando Collins.
- 🔍 The opposition also highlights that the name 'Masawa' is closer to Butuan’s location, and Limasawa lacks the natural resources described in Pigafetta’s journals.
- ⛪ The proposition defends their claim with Pigafetta and Albo's eyewitness accounts, asserting that the geographical and topographical details align more with Limasawa.
- 🏞️ The opposition emphasizes the rich history of Butuan, including its significant role in trade and its strong connection to Cebu.
- 🗣️ Both teams debate the reliability of sources, with the proposition focusing on first-hand accounts and the opposition relying on second-hand interpretations and local findings.
- ⛴️ The proposition team questions the feasibility of Magellan's fleet traveling back to Butuan from Cebu within a day, strengthening their claim that Limasawa was the correct location.
- 🗳️ The debate ends with both teams strongly defending their positions, and the audience is invited to share their opinions on whether the first mass occurred in Limasawa or Butuan.
Q & A
What is the main topic of the Hiraya Podcast debate?
-The main topic of the Hiraya Podcast debate is about where the first mass in the Philippines took place, specifically whether it was in Limasawa or in Butuan.
What historical evidence does the proposition team use to support their claim that the first mass took place in Limasawa?
-The proposition team references the accounts of Antonio Pigafetta and Francisco Albo, who were eyewitnesses of Magellan's voyage. They mentioned that the first mass took place on an island called 'Mazaua,' which is geographically identified with Limasawa in Southern Leyte.
What argument does the opposition team present to support their claim that the first mass happened in Butuan?
-The opposition team argues that the word 'Limasawa' was never mentioned in Pigafetta's accounts. They claim that the place referred to as 'Masao' is closer to Butuan, and they cite the discovery of 600-year-old balangai boats near the Masao River in Butuan as evidence of historical activity in the area.
Why does the proposition team believe that the law declaring Limasawa as the site of the first mass is significant?
-The proposition team cites Republic Act 2733, which declares the site on Limasawa Island as the place where the first mass in the Philippines was held. This law recognizes Limasawa as a National Shrine, providing official status to their claim.
What role do eyewitness accounts play in the debate between the two teams?
-Eyewitness accounts, particularly those of Antonio Pigafetta and Francisco Albo, are crucial in the debate. The proposition team relies on their detailed descriptions of the journey to identify Limasawa as the location, while the opposition team questions the interpretation and suggests that the accounts point to Butuan.
How does the opposition team challenge the geographical evidence presented by the proposition?
-The opposition team argues that the geographical features mentioned by Pigafetta, such as the presence of gold mines, fertile rice fields, and abundant resources, do not match Limasawa but align more closely with Butuan. They also claim that Butuan had a known route to Cebu, unlike Limasawa.
What historical figure's work does the opposition team use to support their argument for Butuan?
-The opposition team references Father Francisco Colin’s work, 'Labor Evangelica,' where he asserts that Magellan went to Butuan and celebrated the first mass there, later erecting a cross.
How does the proposition team counter the opposition's argument about the historical accounts?
-The proposition team argues that the accounts used by the opposition are second-hand and less reliable compared to Pigafetta's firsthand account, which they claim to be the most comprehensive and trustworthy source regarding Magellan's voyage.
What is the significance of the balangai boats mentioned in the debate?
-The balangai boats are significant because they serve as physical evidence of historical activity in Butuan. The opposition uses their discovery to support their argument that Butuan was an important center during the time of Magellan's voyage, potentially the site of the first mass.
How does the debate conclude, and what does the podcast encourage listeners to do?
-The debate concludes with both sides presenting their final arguments, reaffirming their stances. The podcast encourages listeners to decide for themselves where the first mass took place by texting their answers or commenting on the Facebook live session.
Outlines
🎙️ Introduction to Hiraya Podcast and History Debate 2023
The Hiraya Podcast opens with a brief introduction to a historical debate regarding the location of the first mass in the Philippines. The host announces the debate topic: whether the first mass occurred in Limasawa or Butuan. The episode, titled 'Fee Between Us,' invites listeners to tune in as debate teams present arguments. Two groups are introduced, one supporting Limasawa and the other Butuan, and the debate begins with the first proposition speaker defending Limasawa based on historical records.
📜 Opposition Defends Butuan as the Site of the First Mass
The first speaker of the opposition argues against the claim that the first mass occurred in Limasawa, citing a lack of scientific evidence and supporting Butuan. She references the discovery of ancient boats in Butuan and claims historical accounts like Father Fernando Colin's and Antonio Pigafetta's manuscripts favor Butuan. The argument also challenges the interpretation of Pigafetta’s accounts, emphasizing the importance of correcting history based on solid evidence, including local archaeological finds.
💬 Proposition Refutes Opposition with Pigafetta’s Eyewitness Account
The second speaker for the proposition counters the opposition's claims by emphasizing Pigafetta's eyewitness account. She argues that Pigafetta clearly identified Limasawa as the site of the first mass, and that the two chiefs who met Magellan were from Butuan but visiting Limasawa at the time. This suggests that Magellan did not hold the mass in Butuan, reinforcing the geographical accuracy of Pigafetta's account and pointing to Limasawa as the location of the mass.
🗺️ Opposition Critiques Geographical Evidence for Limasawa
The second opposition speaker disputes the geographical evidence presented by the proposition. She argues that Pigafetta's description of the island he called Masao matches Butuan more closely than Limasawa, particularly in terms of natural resources and gold mines. The speaker also points to the historical trade route between Butuan and Cebu, emphasizing the stronger case for Butuan as the site of the first mass, supported by the presence of balangay boats and Butuan's relationship with Cebu.
🔍 Proposition Highlights Flaws in Opposition’s Historical Sources
The third speaker for the proposition refutes the opposition’s use of secondary historical sources, emphasizing that their case relies heavily on second-hand accounts, while the proposition is backed by primary accounts from Pigafetta and Francisco Albo. She argues that the opposition's claim that Magellan returned to Butuan after visiting Cebu is geographically implausible. Furthermore, she points to specific topographical details mentioned by Albo that align with Limasawa, reinforcing its identification as the location of the first mass.
⚔️ Opposition Defends Butuan Using Additional Historical Accounts
The third opposition speaker defends Butuan as the site of the first mass by referencing additional historical accounts, such as Francisco Combés' Historia de Mindanao, which claims Magellan went to Butuan to meet its powerful king. She argues that a cross was planted in Butuan as a sign of future alliances and insists that the first mass took place there. She further supports her case by reiterating the historical and archaeological significance of Butuan, including the presence of balangay boats.
🧭 Proposition Clarifies Chieftains’ Presence in Limasawa, Not Butuan
The proposition responds to the opposition by clarifying that the chieftains from Butuan were visiting Limasawa at the time of the first mass, based on Pigafetta’s and Albo’s accounts. This assertion further strengthens the claim that the first mass was held in Limasawa and not Butuan, as the opposition had argued. The proposition stresses the reliability of Pigafetta’s firsthand documentation over the opposition’s secondary sources.
📚 Opposition Reaffirms Butuan with Artifacts and Historical Evidence
The final opposition speaker reiterates that the first mass occurred in Butuan, supported by the presence of balangay boats and other archaeological artifacts. She argues that Butuan has long been recognized as the site of the first mass and dismisses the proposition’s reliance on geographical details, which she believes are less convincing than the historical and archaeological evidence presented for Butuan.
📢 Proposition Concludes with a Focus on Reliable Historical Sources
The final speaker for the proposition concludes by stressing the reliability of Pigafetta and Albo’s first-hand accounts, which provide clear geographical and topographical evidence favoring Limasawa as the site of the first mass. She critiques the opposition’s use of secondary sources and emphasizes that Pigafetta’s journal is the most credible source available for this historical debate.
🏆 Opposition’s Final Claim for Butuan Based on Historical Records
The opposition team closes by summarizing their argument that Butuan is the true site of the first mass, based on historical records that reference the island of Masao. They assert that Butuan fits the descriptions in Pigafetta’s accounts better than Limasawa and highlight the discrepancy in the number of syllables in the names Masao and Limasawa. Additionally, the opposition points to the wealth and trade connections of Butuan, which further support their claim.
🤔 Closing Remarks and Audience Participation
The hosts wrap up the debate, reflecting on the strong arguments made by both sides. They invite listeners to share their opinions and vote on whether they believe the first mass took place in Limasawa or Butuan. The episode closes with an announcement for a future discussion on the Battle of Mactan, encouraging continued listener engagement with Philippine history.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡First Mass in the Philippines
💡Limasawa
💡Butuan
💡Antonio Pigafetta
💡Balangai Boats
💡Republic Act 2733
💡Francisco Albo
💡Father Francisco Colin
💡Magellan's Expedition
💡Historical Accuracy
Highlights
Introduction of Hiraya Podcast, introducing fresh and meaningful deliberations about historical events in the Philippines.
Debate topic: Where was the first mass in the Philippines held? Limasawa or Butuan?
The proposition team claims that the first mass took place in Limasawa, supported by the accounts of Antonio Pigafetta and Francisco Albo.
Proposition cites Republic Act 2733, declaring Limasawa Island as the site of the first mass and a national historical shrine.
Opposition argues that Butuan is the true site of the first mass, citing the absence of the word 'Limasawa' in historical accounts and emphasizing the significance of Butuan.
Opposition introduces scientific evidence from the discovery of Balangay boats near Masao River in Butuan, suggesting a historical connection.
Proposition responds that Pigafetta’s and Albo’s eyewitness accounts point geographically to Limasawa, not Butuan.
Opposition claims that Butuan’s wealth and resources, including gold mines, make it a more plausible location for the first mass than the smaller and poorer Limasawa.
Opposition mentions historian Father Fernando Colin's account, which supports Butuan as the site of the first mass.
The proposition rebuts that Magellan’s fleet couldn’t have returned to Butuan from Cebu within a day due to the distance, making Limasawa a more practical location for the first mass.
Opposition continues to emphasize geographical inaccuracies in the proposition’s claim, reinforcing the argument that Masao in Butuan is the correct location.
Proposition asserts that Pigafetta’s original accounts are more reliable than later translations and claims made by the opposition.
Opposition states that Magellan was drawn to Butuan due to its more powerful king, reinforcing the idea that Butuan was an important historical center.
Conclusion from the proposition side: Limasawa is the more likely site of the first mass based on geographical evidence and primary accounts.
Conclusion from the opposition side: Butuan has stronger historical, geographical, and cultural evidence, including the presence of Balangay boats, to support it as the site of the first mass.
Transcripts
[Music]
this is hiraya podcast introducing fresh
informative and meaningful deliberation
worthy of your time stay tuned their
listeners throughout this moment who
will be talking about our very own
Philippines in this session we call Fee
between us with a question worth it that
first mass happened the masawa or in
Boudoir
a pleasant greeting ladies and gentlemen
I and my comedy reader are delighted to
present to you our history debate 2023
the topic to debate is about the first
mass in the Philippines is it Lima Sawa
or in Boudoir and the motion of this
house the first Nas in the Philippines
happened in limasawa what do you think
the mass first happened partner where
are you placing your bed well I'm not
quite sure as well partner but I'm
putting my beds on Lima Sawa I just fill
it in my boat anyway we have this debate
in our special episode to know where
exactly it happened so without further
Ado let us welcome the debate groups
with us in this podcast the first cure
for presenting the proposition with Miss
G and keto Miss April May abandon and
Miss Angela cashio and the second group
representing the opposition with Miss
Maria Carmella assassin Miss Zara Claire
burundo and Miss Giselle canvas each of
the debates have one minute and 30
seconds to present their own arguments
and rebots
this time I will call the house to order
I will call upon Misty and cattle to
present their proposition
the motion of the government is the same
as declared in the Republic act
2733 which is an app to declare the site
in magalyanasawa island in the province
of Leyte where the first mass in the
Philippines was held in a National
Shrine to provide for the preservation
of historical monuments and landmarks
there and for other purposes our team
would like to specify first the
definition of mass so a mass it is known
as a practice among Christian people to
honor and worship God for her argument
which is in accordance with the accounts
of Antonio pigafetta and Francisco albo
who are eyewitnesses of Magellan's
Voyage so they both stated that the
first mass took place on the island they
called mazava in almost
[Music]
so they both asserted that from the
island of homonym they went westwards
towards the island paper and turned to a
Southwest direction to reach this island
So based on the geographical locations
provided by algo and pegafeta the island
of limasawa in southern Leyte is the
counterpart thus the proposition team
strongly supports the motion of this
house to the first mass of the
Philippines took place in the limassawa
wow what an informative claim we have
there we thank the first affirmative
speaker from the proposition and now I
call upon Miss Maria Carnival asses to
open a case from the proposition
in response to the first Speaker passing
a law is not substantial evidence
knowing that it was not even approved by
the executives and had no scientific
evidence as well thus we firmly believe
that Misawa but one is the venue of the
first mass here in the Philippines and
we are going to take a look at the
accounts of pigafetta and Alba the word
the Misawa was not mentioned at all so
how come you concluded that it is where
the first mass was held also we have the
island named mazao a two to three
syllable word which is much closer to
the word masawa it is essential to
correct history which is backed up by
scientific evidence wherein according to
the one City Cultural and historical
foundation and the butuan government 10
10 of 1 600 year old balangai boats were
found in 1976 near masau river which is
located in butuan City right now on the
statement of Father Fernando Collins a
historian in his work labor evangelica
or evangelica he asserted that Magellan
went to boot one and there he celebrated
the first mass and erected across and to
support this Antonio pigafetta testified
that he gave a gift of a certain things
of certain things rather to the Queen
Mother of France Louise of Savoy and the
mother of Francis the first now Gian
Batista ramusuyo
mentioned that a copy of bigger feta's
account was given to Luis
of Savoy whereas this manuscript was
translated to French by Jacquees fabre
and imported by Simon the cocklands then
it was later translated back into
Italian version Byram and it was the
basis of Collins account thus on the
other way around Colin's account was
considered reliable and there was a
monument erected during 1872
commemorate the first mass in book 1 on
April 8 1521 and for this reason we
claim that the first mass happened in
Bhutan
now that both teams have shared their
stand we are starting to feel the heat
yes exactly partner I cannot feel the
heat the cleanse of these two teams are
really convincing you know we think the
first Speaker from the opposition and
call upon Miss April May abandon to
continue the case from the proposition
let's keep this rolling let's keep
rolling
now I objected a statement of the
opposed speaker so pigafetta provide a
transformatory evidence in the presence
of the two native Kings of rajas at
mazawa during the Magellan visit so one
was the king of mazawa who later
Gadget and expedition to Cebu the other
was the relative namely the Raha was one
so he added the finest man that he had
ever seen in those parts according to
the king of what one from that the fact
that he was a visitor to mazawa and his
territory was in the Quan which was in
another Island and album while an island
of mazawa the metucheki one is the
chieftain of azawa and one is the chief
minus one who was said to be visiting
the island therefore the chief Xenoverse
1 was not into one during the time but
in mazawa so in conclusion Magellan
didn't go to butuan
we thank the second affirmative speaker
from the proposition and now I call upon
Miss jizakanas to open the case from the
opposition
in accuracy of the map and the
calculation of the exact location of the
island of masau is questionable evidence
to claim that the first mass happened in
limasawa if geographical feature says
it's masawa butuan now if you truly
understand the cafeta's journal it says
there that the island of matau has a
great quantity of fouls goats pigs and
many more especially gold mines masawa
has its all richly and limasawa on the
other hand a small and poor island lacks
it especially the presence of fertile
rice fields and abundance of gold also
there is an existing route from butuan
to Cebu and these two cities have a
great relationship with each other since
then that limasawatu Cebu has none and
again the presence of balang high in the
butuan is the most sufficient evidence
to prove that the birthplace of
Christianity in the Philippines is none
other than in masawa butuan
[Music]
we think the second speaker from the
opposition wow I'm speechless the two
teams are so good with their claims
partner exactly Porter even me I am now
doubting which side is right
yes me too their claims quite change my
bed anyways there's still a lot of here
from this passionate teams stay tuned as
a Raya will get back for a few minutes
are you proud of our language I am not
proud ma'am
yes ma'am until now we still belong to a
third world country
everyone
ikaw Miss Alonso can you explain to me
results uh
um what was that again ma'am
knowing our history shows love for our
country I remind her from National
Historical Commission of the Philippines
and hiraya podcast
[Music]
all right here Raya is back to continue
with our discussion about where did the
first mass happened
at this juncture may I call upon Miss
Angel akasho to continue the case from
the proposition
[Applause]
[Music]
so thank you Miss Tracy so I disagree
with the claims of deposition from a
sales version of pigafata's manuscripts
are not reliable the transmission
effects from pigapeta to Lewis and Savoy
to simondikons is without documentary
support pick up Peta himself didn't
mention that he gave the copy of his
manuscript to Collins but simply a gift
officer can play so our claims from the
first argumentative speaker was based on
the original Ambrose attacks of
pigafetta and I would like to point out
that based on Father Collins account
Magellan and his men went to Cebu on
April 7 1521 but in the monument
subscription the first mass was held on
April 8 15 21 on Route 1 so how is it
possible to go back to butuan from Cebu
for just one day wearing wood award is
236 kilometers away from Cebu and the
ships of Magellan that time is not that
fast enough and to add to our argument
on the same day of the mass a cross was
erected on the summit of a mountain and
according to Francisco Alba on the
summit of the mountain you can see three
Islands from the west and Southwestern
but one can be seen in the northern
Direction based on the topographical
details given by Alba and pikapeta it
describes the present in masawa we think
the turret speaker for the preposition
and now I will call upamis Zara Claire
burundo to continue the case of the
opposition
I disabled will be the argument
presented by the third proposition
speaker I claim that this mazawa is in
between one and is approved in Historia
De Medina why hello written by Francisco
Compass SG who worked at the missionary
missionary in the Philippines states
that Magellan went to Route 1 because
they heard that the king there was more
powerful and they wanted to meet him so
it was said that their expectations were
satisfied by the king and there they
planted a cost in a Southern submeremony
as a sign of future Alliance in
Francisco Collins work the first match
occurred the same day they started the
cross and for that reason we believe
that the first must occurred in boot one
we thank the third speaker of that
position and now I will call upon Miss
Jay and Kato again to continue the case
from the proposition
I object to the statement of the third
opposed speaker Magellan did not go to
butuan to meet the king there according
to pigafetta and Albus account while in
the island of mazawa they met the two
Chieftains one is the chieftain of
butuan who said to be visiting the
island so therefore our claims is that
the chieftain of butuan is not in butuan
but in mazawa during that time we thank
Miss Jay and from the proposition side
and now I call up on Mr Maria Carmelo
ask us to continue the case of the
opposition our team opposed the motion
of this house we claimed that the first
match took place in both one and not in
limasawa we believe that our sources are
reliable and that Magellan landed first
on but one were the first mass took
place the monument erected was proof of
it okay in fact there are artifacts that
prove that the first max occurred in the
island on on the island rather now those
are the presence of balangai in butuan
which they believe was used for
transportation during Magellan's visit
and again the presence of balangai in
the but what is the most sufficient
evidence to prove that the birthplace of
Christianity in the Philippines is none
other than in masawa but one
it's Maria Carmela asked us from the
opposition side now before hearing the
concluding remarks of our two teams
let's take a break for a while stay
tuned here I will get back to you for a
few minutes
Mommy Mommy why are there so many people
Gathering every single log it is to give
honor to our Santo Nino a resemblance of
baby Jesus the holy Child mommy can you
explain to me the 500 years of
Christianity is that the year of
Christian faith my child 500 years of
Christianity pertains to the number of
years since the Spanish brought
Christian faith here in the country in
the year 1521 till now in short it's the
birth of Christianity in the Philippines
Mommy that's so nice wow thank you so
much for teaching me about this I'm
learning a lot teach children when
meaningful things while they are still
young so when they get old they will not
depart from it a reminder from the
National Historical Commission of the
Philippines and the Uriah podcast
now we're finally back at this moment
let us hear the concluding statements of
the two passionate teams may I come up
and Miss abandon first to conclude the
proposition's case
that's why these
Victor plays in limasawa because of the
statement of Alba and pikafeta regarding
the geographical directions and
topographical descriptions of azawa
which best describes the island of
limasawa than would want and to
strengthen our claims of pikafetas and
Albus accounts are considered as first
hand account the Cafe's work is the most
fulfilled and reliable source of
information regarding my Channel's
Voyage where the claims of the
opposition are based on the second hand
accounts only thank you
thank you Miss April from the
proposition team now I call upon Miss
Giselle can last to conclude a case from
the opposition the evidence of Masa or
rather than limasawa are as follows the
name of the place in all primary sources
including the Diary of Antonio pigafetta
the funicular of Magellan's Voyage the
name of the place was three syllables
masau or something close to it Lima Sawa
has four syllables and begins with
another letter second is the root from
Human now according to the primary
records again the Expedition traveled 20
to 25 leagues from Homan hon their first
landing point to the site of the first
mass thinking of west southwest course
so if they had been at limasawa Island
the distance is only about 14.8 leagues
or one half of that length moreover
the opposition team used a wide range of
historical sources regarding this
historical event while the claims of the
preposition team are only based on two
accounts but one at the site of the
first mass in the Philippines has been I
believe for centuries that's all thank
you wow wow wow wow there was an
incredible discussion thank you team
proposition and team a position and to
every speaker here this has been a very
knowledgeable and insightful day to
discuss with you
yes exactly for there and to our viewers
and listeners thank you for watching
both opposing teams had shared their
claims very well how about to our dear
listeners what could be your decision
it's the first mass held in Le Misawa or
in butuan you can text your answers and
to those who are watching via FB live do
not hesitate to comment your choice
all right this time we will end our
debate session and see you next time for
our another special episode with a
question were they the Battle of mactan
takes place Island
still here in our Horizon
Filipinas once again thank you for
listening see you on our next episode
this is yours Julie carry the Tracy Ai
and this is
now signing off till next day
[Music]
[Applause]
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