Dr. Robert Cialdini, the godfather of influence
Summary
TLDRIn this insightful interview, Guy Kawasaki speaks with Dr. Robert Cialdini, the 'Godfather of Influence,' about his work on persuasion and the power of a growth mindset. Cialdini shares his expertise on the optimal response to 'thank you,' the importance of understanding the principles of influence, and how to effectively use them in various situations, including politics and marketing. The conversation highlights the ethical considerations of using persuasive techniques and the role of the 'convert communicator' in changing minds. Cialdini's profound understanding of social psychology offers valuable lessons for anyone looking to enhance their influence and communication skills.
Takeaways
- 🌟 Bob Cialdini, known as the 'Godfather of Influence', has significantly impacted marketing, evangelism, sales, and personal development with his work.
- 📚 Cialdini's book 'Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion' serves as a guiding light for conducting business and shaping lifestyle choices.
- 🤝 When someone thanks you, an optimal response is 'I know you would do the same for me', which emphasizes future reciprocity and strengthens social bonds.
- 📈 Cialdini suggests that the quality of returns for a favor declines over time, so it's beneficial to provide opportunities for immediate reciprocation.
- ⚾️ Cialdini's initial career path involved a chance to play minor league baseball, but a wise scout advised him to pursue education instead, leading to his influential career in social psychology.
- 🏆 The six principles of influence - reciprocity, scarcity, authority, consistency, liking, and consensus - still hold power in the digital age, though the internet has changed how they are applied and perceived.
- 💡 The term 'peersuasion' has emerged, highlighting the significant influence of peer reviews and recommendations in the digital marketplace.
- 📖 Cialdini's book 'Persuasion' differentiates between 'persuasion', which focuses on the message content, and 'pre-suasion', which primes the audience to be more receptive to the message.
- 🎯 Pre-suasion can be powerful, as it directs the audience's attention to related concepts before the main message is delivered, thus making it more appealing.
- 🤔 Ethical concerns arise when influence techniques are used dishonestly; consumers should be vigilant and respond to deceptive practices by sharing their experiences online.
- 🚀 Cialdini's insights and strategies continue to be highly relevant and applicable, encouraging individuals to adopt a growth mindset and effectively persuade in various aspects of life.
Q & A
What is the main topic of discussion in the podcast?
-The main topic of discussion in the podcast is the concept of a growth mindset and the principles of influence and persuasion, as discussed by Bob Cialdini, the 'Godfather of Influence'.
How does Bob Cialdini respond to someone thanking him?
-Bob Cialdini suggests responding not just with 'You're welcome,' but with 'I know you would do the same for me,' which implies a future reciprocation and strengthens the relationship.
What is the significance of the phrase 'I know you would do the same for me'?
-The phrase 'I know you would do the same for me' is significant because it refers to a future situation where the roles might be reversed, thus fostering a sense of mutual understanding and cooperation.
How does the quality of the return after a favor decline with time?
-The quality of the return after a favor declines with time because the obligation to give back is strongest immediately after the favor is done, but this sense of obligation lessens over time, leading to potentially less valuable returns.
What are the six principles of influence mentioned in the book 'Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion'?
-The six principles of influence are reciprocity, scarcity, authority, consistency, liking, and consensus/ social proof.
How has the internet changed the way these principles of influence are applied?
-The internet has changed the way these principles are applied by providing access to information about the behaviors, choices, and opinions of people all over the world, thus amplifying the power of social proof and the ability to create and spread influence more broadly.
What is the difference between 'persuasion' and 'pre-suasion' as explained in the podcast?
-Persuasion refers to the tactics or strategies used to move people in a desired direction once they receive a message, while pre-suasion is about preparing the recipient to be more receptive to the message before they even encounter it, by focusing their attention on related ideas.
How did Bob Cialdini become interested in the concept of pre-suasion?
-Bob Cialdini became interested in the concept of pre-suasion after he experienced a situation where he gave more money than usual to a man soliciting for after-school programs for children. He realized that the man's approach, which focused on children's needs, had already persuaded him before the actual request was made.
What is the role of a 'convert communicator' in influencing people?
-A 'convert communicator' is someone who was initially on one side of an argument or belief but changed their stance due to new information or experiences. They are effective influencers because their message carries more weight as they are speaking from a place of shared belief and experience.
How can the principles of influence be used ethically?
-The principles of influence can be used ethically when they are applied honestly and transparently, without deception or manipulation. Consumers should be aware of communicators who use these principles and reward those who are truthful with trust and positive feedback, while calling out those who use them dishonestly.
What advice does Bob Cialdini give on how to effectively introduce a podcast or presentation?
-Bob Cialdini suggests using the power of mystery to engage the audience. Instead of revealing everything upfront, he recommends creating curiosity by posing a question or hinting at an interesting fact or insight that will be revealed later, thus encouraging the audience to listen or continue to the end.
Outlines
🎤 Introduction to Growth Mindset and Influence
The script begins with a discussion on growth mindset, introducing the guest Bob Cialdini, a professor emeritus at Arizona State University, and his significant influence on marketing, evangelism, and sales. The host, Guy Kawasaki, credits Cialdini's book 'Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion' as a guiding light in his business and personal life, referring to Cialdini as the 'Godfather of Influence.' The conversation touches on the optimal response to gratitude and the concept of reciprocity, highlighting the importance of timing and future-oriented acknowledgments in social interactions.
🚀 The Journey of Becoming an Influence Guru
This paragraph delves into Bob Cialdini's journey to becoming a leading figure in the study of influence and persuasion. It narrates a pivotal moment where Cialdini was offered a minor league baseball contract, but a scout advised him to pursue education instead, emphasizing the importance of choosing a path where one excels. This decision led Cialdini to academia and his eventual prominence in social psychology, illustrating how chance encounters and personal choices shape one's career trajectory.
📚 The Six Principles of Influence: Then and Now
The conversation revisits Cialdini's influential book 'Influence,' focusing on the six principles of persuasion: reciprocity, scarcity, authority, consistency, liking, and consensus. Cialdini discusses how the internet has altered the application and perception of these principles, particularly the principle of social proof. He notes the ease of access to peer behaviors and opinions online, which has amplified the use of social proof. However, he also acknowledges the downside of fake consensus and the ongoing battle against fraudulent reviews in online platforms.
🤔 The Difference Between Persuasion and Pre-Suasion
This section distinguishes between persuasion and pre-suasion, explaining that persuasion focuses on tactics used to sway an audience towards a particular message, while pre-suasion is about preparing the audience to be more receptive to the message before they even encounter it. Cialdini uses the example of a study involving a new soft drink to illustrate how pre-suading individuals by focusing their attention on a related concept can significantly increase their compliance. He emphasizes the importance of timing and the strategic alignment of ideas to enhance the effectiveness of communication.
🧐 The Power of Pre-Suasion in Real-Life Scenarios
The discussion continues with real-life examples of pre-suasion's effectiveness. Cialdini narrates his personal experience of donating to a cause without the usual persuasive tactics, highlighting how the presence of a child shifted his focus and made him more generous. He also touches on the concept of 'convert communicators,' where a message from someone who has changed their stance can be more impactful than from an authoritative figure. The conversation underscores the psychological mechanisms that pre-suasion leverages and its potential applications in various scenarios.
📈 The Underutilization of Persuasive Techniques
The host and Cialdini ponder why many companies and marketers do not fully leverage the persuasive techniques backed by scientific research. Cialdini suggests the need for a 'Chief Influence Officer' to stay updated on the latest findings and apply them across different organizational functions. The discussion highlights the gap between available scientific data and its application in marketing and sales strategies, emphasizing the need for a more systematic integration of these principles.
🗣️ The Role of Language in Influence
Cialdini and the host discuss the primary function of language as a tool for influence, rather than merely a means of conveying ideas. They explore the concept that language is designed to move and change people, shaping the way communicators engage with their audience. The conversation also touches on the importance of personalizing messages and the impact of using 'convert communicators' in marketing campaigns, illustrating how personal experiences and relatable stories can significantly enhance persuasive messaging.
💡 Applying Pre-Suasion to Encourage Vaccination
The discussion shifts to a practical application of pre-suasion, with Cialdini suggesting strategies to encourage vaccination by focusing on the concepts of partnership and community rather than health and safety alone. He emphasizes the power of social proof and the effectiveness of using 'convert communicators' to share their changed perspectives and experiences. The conversation highlights the importance of tailoring persuasive messages to resonate with the audience's values and concerns.
🌐 Ethical Considerations in Pre-Suasion and Influence
Cialdini reflects on the ethical implications of his findings, expressing concern about the potential misuse of persuasive techniques. He emphasizes the responsibility of consumers to engage with communicators who use these principles ethically and honestly. The conversation also touches on the importance of verifying the authenticity of persuasive claims and the role of the internet in empowering consumers to challenge and expose unethical practices.
🎙️ Wrapping Up: Reflections on the Power of Influence
The podcast concludes with the host expressing gratitude to Bob Cialdini for his insights on influence and persuasion. The host reflects on how Cialdini's principles have significantly impacted his own speeches and presentations, highlighting the timeless and effective nature of Cialdini's work. The conversation ends with the host's commitment to applying the learned skills in his future endeavors, emphasizing the transformative power of understanding and utilizing the principles of influence.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Growth Mindset
💡Bob Cialdini
💡Influence
💡Reciprocity
💡Scarcity
💡Social Proof
💡Authority
💡Liking
💡Consensus
💡Pre-suasion
💡Peersuasion
Highlights
Bob Cialdini, the Godfather of influence, shares insights on persuasion and his impact on business and personal conduct.
Cialdini's book 'Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion' is a guiding light for many in marketing, evangelism, and sales.
The optimal response to 'thank you' is 'I know you would do the same for me', creating a sense of future reciprocity.
Cialdini's advice on telling people how they can repay you is still a best practice for maintaining relationships and obligations.
The six principles of influence (reciprocity, scarcity, authority, consistency, liking, and consensus) remain powerful, though the internet has changed their application.
The concept of 'peersuasion' is gaining prominence, where peer recommendations hold significant sway over purchasing decisions.
Cialdini's journey to becoming an influence guru was not planned, but rather a series of fortunate events and choices.
The importance of having a 'chief influence officer' in organizations to apply scientific evidence for better decision making and influence strategies.
The primary function of language is to influence people, not just to convey ideas.
Cialdini's process of collecting sources for his book 'Influence' was driven by personal experiences and literature exploration.
The power of using a 'convert communicator' in persuasion, someone who has changed their stance and can influence peers.
Cialdini's thoughts on the ethics of using persuasion techniques, emphasizing the importance of honest and ethical communication.
The strategy of introducing a mystery to engage listeners and create anticipation for the resolution.
Guy Kawasaki's approach to interviews, focusing on preparing thoroughly and asking meaningful questions.
Cialdini's influence extends beyond academic circles, with his principles being applied and recognized by various professionals.
The importance of having a growth mindset, as introduced by the podcast host, which is essential in life and business.
Cialdini's discussion on the use of social proof in politics, and how it can sway public opinion.
The role of consumers in ensuring ethical use of influence tactics, by responding to deceptive practices and advocating for transparency.
Transcripts
[Music]
before I introduce this episode's guest
I want to ask you a question do you have
a growth mindset my guest is Bob
cialdini he is a professor emeritus at
Arizona State University he influences
almost every marketing evangelism and
sales decision that I make his book
influence the psychology of persuasion
is The Guiding Light for how I conduct
business and in many ways how I live my
life
in short ciardini is the Godfather of
influence
he is to changing people's minds what
Martha Stewart is to changing people's
lifestyles
have you ever wondered how to optimally
respond when someone thanks you keep
listening and you'll find out I'm guy
Kawasaki and this is remarkable people
and now here is Bob cialdini
[Music]
one of my favorite lessons from your
book is of course the optimal thing to
say when someone says thank you and in
your book you say it's more than you're
welcome it's also I know you would do
the same for me now I read that years
ago so bring me up to speed is that
still optimal
it is and I liked especially the tents
that you used there
it shouldn't be oh I know you would have
done the same for me
that's somewhere in the past I know that
you will do the same for me okay in the
future right so you wanted to move you
would do the same for me in this in the
future rather than if the situation had
been reversed you would have done the
same for me don't Don't Point them to
the past that's gone I'm going to say I
know you would do the same for me if the
situation were ever reversed yes well I
have told that story with full credit
but actually in many cases with your
book
uh cover on the screen when I tell that
story so I have I have proselytized the
the word of Bob all over the world
because I just was up that story very
hardening you hear and you know so
follow on to that one of another piece
of your advice in your book is that the
you should also tell people how they can
repay you so is that still a best
practice it turns out that the um the
quality of the return you get after a
favor
declines with time so give them an
opportunity to offer something in return
close to the thanks that that you
deserved
can it be as close as you know the
person says thank you and I say I know
you would do the same for me and by the
way here's how right now well it
wouldn't be in those terms but the
timing I mean if you read the the
research is really quite clear as soon
as the ACT is done the obligation to
give back is there but the amount you
get back declines over time how did you
become to be what I consider the de
facto Guru of influence and persuasion
in the world
by accident
okay how did the accident occur yeah so
when I was uh in getting out of the high
school I got an offer to play minor
league baseball and I wanted to be you
know with Mickey Mantle or Willie Mays I
was a center fielder and uh there was a
scout who was willing to sign me to play
a Class D baseball little towns and uh
and I was very excited and uh he uh
brought a contract with him at my last
game and his pen didn't work so we went
walked to the car uh where he had
another pen and he said let me ask you
something are you any good at school I
said yes
enough to
go get through college
I said yes he said do you like school
yes
and he took the pen and put it in his
pocket and he said go to school kid go
to school
your chances of making the majors are
slim and
um I'd recommend that you do something
you like and that you're really good at
and uh and so we're talking here today
because I didn't go try to be a a major
league baseball player which would have
failed completely you know I would have
wound up in the major leagues instead
not in the minor league I'm sorry in the
minor leagues in some small town in
Nebraska right and uh my career would
have ended there and uh maybe by the
time I figured out that I was not good
enough maybe I would have had a wife and
maybe even a a baby I wouldn't have been
able to go to school at that point I
would have been the assistant manager of
the Pizza Hut in Cozad Nebraska
instead you and I are talking
[Music]
and today you are basically the
Willie Mays or Reggie Jackson of social
psychology so there you go
yeah well thank you for that but I I I
recognized that it was a fork in the
road in that and and sometimes luck and
Serendipity have a big role in
um in where we go and how far we go
that is a great story but you then had
to get a bachelor's and a PhD and even
beyond that you had to establish your
reputation as a teacher and write these
books I mean it wasn't just that no it
was the I I won't say that I'm I'm not
suited for uh the professorial role and
the researcher and so and I loved it and
and and I was uh I was pretty good at it
so those things had to be there too but
all that could have been true but
the assistant manager of the Pizza Hut
wouldn't have been able to display those
skills if the road had gone differently
that's all that's all yeah okay
influence is one of my favorite books it
was a huge influence on me throughout my
career and I would just like to revisit
that a little bit the six principles of
reciprocity scarcity Authority
consistency liking and consensus
uh any hindsight on that is it you know
the six are still good to go you you
have any uh thoughts uh you know I do
two kinds of thoughts uh one is that the
internet has changed
the availabilities of those various
principles in our culture by far one of
those principles consensus or social
proof as we call it in the book the
extent to which uh we are likely to
change to the extent that we see other
people around us performing a different
action or having a different belief or
opinion that we currently have so uh and
now the internet has given us access to
the behaviors and the choices and the
opinions and the beliefs and the
experiences of peers all over the place
that we wouldn't have had a chance to
get access to that's certainly one thing
it's not that the six principles have
changed in their power as human
Tendencies it's just that we have access
to information about what others around
us like us are doing are choosing our
believing and so on and we're much more
likely as a result of those uh of those
sorts of information to use them in ways
that uh didn't didn't exist when I first
wrote that book
now is this good news bad news because I
I'm a glass half full kind of guy also
but for every for every benefit that you
just mentioned there's also the ability
to create fake consensus
today yes right there is and the the
review sites for example that have
numbers of stars and ratings and so on
are in constant combat with the fakers
the people who are trying to provide
phony reviews or uh sometimes they pay
for reviews of of of other peoples to do
it and so those review sites have
algorithms now designed to identify and
weed out those fake reviews but of
course uh the the Fabricators are going
to find other ways to get around that so
they're in a constant battle with it
nonetheless
there's research to show that of people
who buy uh products and services over
the internet
over 90 percent
look to product reviews first before
they choose and are greatly influenced
by them you and I are both authors and I
would say if if somebody said to me guy
you could either have the New York Times
review your book or you could have a
four and a half or five star rating on
Amazon which would you pick I would pick
the Amazon rating over a review by the
New York Times book review
I agree if your interest is uh not
getting some sort of elite
acknowledgment but other but but to get
your message out and get people
interested in buying your book because
of
peers have recognized the quality of it
we even have a term for this I'm going
to call it peersuasion instead of
persuasion it's very powerful
peersuasion is all the rage right now
Bob you are a master of
coinage of phrases so I love persuasion
that's fantastic is that book the next
book well it's certainly a candidate
yeah okay you better you better
trademark that before I grab it
[Laughter]
well speaking on the P words so we
started with persuasion and one of your
latest books or perhaps the latest book
is persuasion so can you explain the
difference between persuasion and
persuasion yes
persuasion is the uh is it refers to
what you do as a communicator
to put into your message
to arrange for people to move in your
direction what do you you can describe
scarcity you can describe
credibility of you can describe social
proof Authority all these kinds of
things that you can put into your
message that inclines people to say yes
to it
persuasion is not about what you put
into your message it's about what you
put into the moment before you send your
message
to make people more
sympathetic to it
before they encounter it now that sounds
like some kind of magic right how do you
get people to agree with a message when
they don't know what's in it
well as a communicator you know what's
in it
so it's if it's possible to focus people
on an idea or a concept that is related
to the Core
element of your message
before they receive the message
when they then encounter it that concept
they will be more favorable to it let me
give you an example a study was done in
in in which marketers walked up to
people on the street and and gave them a
flyer asking them if they wanted to try
a brand new soft drink that's not even
on the market yet right and but to do it
they had to get these people had to give
their email address to this stranger
so he could send them a message about
how to get this case of uh new soft
drink right
and that produced about
um
29
Ascent right 29 said yes okay I'll give
you my
the other half right got that same flyer
but before they
received it
they saw at the top of the flyer the
words do you consider yourself an
adventurous person
it focused people on their
adventurousness
and now 75 percent
gave their
email address to get something new so
you put people in Mind of a concept like
adventurousness that is related to the
idea of trying something new and you get
an enormous
leverage as a result the question I now
have is so are you saying that
persuasion and persuasion are both
important or persuasion is more
important than persuasion uh is there a
is there either or what is it it it's
it's the first thing you said they're
both important but one of them
persuasion is where we have always
focused our efforts as communicators uh
and and we have been remiss in
recognizing that there's a moment before
we deliver our message that can be just
as powerful in moving people in our
Direction
um
and and
I I see it all around me now that I've
thought about this idea but I uh uh I
know that uh other people have thought
about this but not in in such a a a a
detailed and conceptual way as I tried
to do in the book to explain why this
works the way it does for me
when we focus people's attention on an
idea
it becomes for a moment more important
to us
than any other idea because we find
ourselves
focusing on it and we have a long
history of assuming that if we're
focusing on an idea it must be important
to us if we're paying attention to us to
it it must be important to us that
usually works but a communicator can get
us to pay attention to an idea by
drawing our Focus to it
and we assume that because we're paying
attention to it it must be important
and that's the that's the the effect
right
I I love when you you bring up this
example of what greater percentage of
email addresses you got also in the book
you talk about going to a website and
you show clouds and and when you show
clouds people are more cognizant about
the comfort factor of their sofas than
the cost saving of their sofas just by
changing between showing clouds or
showing pennies so I love these kind of
stories now I have a question for you as
an author though I went through
persuasion and I looked at the fact that
you have roughly 90 pages of sources and
I'd say there's eight sources per page
so you have roughly 700 citations in
your book
so the question is
how the hell do you do that is it is it
you you're in you subscribe to the
Journal of Social Psychology and you've
read 700 studies and you said wow this
is really interesting I should put it in
my book or was the order well I want to
tell people about the power of
persuasion let me go find some studies
that support my thesis so which came
first
in the case of
um persuasion it is I I went to the
journals I went to all the Articles and
I saw what worked based on the research
in the case of persuasion something
happened to me that made me go into the
literature to see if I could find
confirmation of it one Saturday there
was a knock at my door there was a man
asking me to contribute to a good cause
after school programs for children in my
district right but he didn't show me any
credentials that he was from my school
district I hadn't seen
any buzz in my neighborhood about these
after school programs
but I gave him
more money about twice as much money as
I normally give to people right who come
to my door
and I remember closing the door and
saying what just happened there this guy
didn't use any of the principles I claim
I've built my reputation on claiming are
the ones you need to elevate your
success this guy didn't use any of them
and he got me to give
twice as much as I normally do what did
he do
here's what he did before he ever said a
word he brought his seven-year-old
daughter with him
[Music]
and he focused me on children
and he focused me on children's
challenges and children's needs and
children's
benefits right
and then when he gave me the argument
about the value of after-school programs
for children I was already
persuaded
to that argument I was readied for it
and sure enough it worked on me and I
remember saying to myself oh this is
different this is different than the
process of persuasion let's go track it
down in the existing literature and
before long I thought there's a book
here
[Music]
thank you
[Music]
obviously I've read your books obviously
I'm a Believer but what surprises me is
that the the conclusions and the
information
from the studies that you cite and from
your own interpretation your own your
own body of collective thought uh
there's so much great scientific data
and stuff that marketers could use
why does so much go unused why don't
people why don't companies have more
persuasive setup and why don't they have
more persuasive qualities of their
product and service the scientific data
is there I mean arguably you put them
into two books how hard could it be why
don't they use the damn thing
here's what they need they need a CIO a
chief influence officer yeah who knows
the research and can say with regard to
any new initiative any change any
problem here's what I know the evidence
the scientific evidence tells us to do
here
and who should have a staff of people
who are constantly up to date on the
newest work the newest documented
demonstrated
scientifically grounded work who can
take that knowledge and spread it to
every area within the organization to
sales to marketing to procurement to
recruitment to management
every one of those domains could benefit
everybody needs to be more influential
why shouldn't we have a chief influence
office
good point some place in Persuasion you
make the point that the the major
function of language is
to influence people yes which I never
thought of language that way yeah that's
the newest research it's not language
isn't primarily to describe or convey an
idea
that the communicator has it is to move
people it is to change people that's the
primary goal of language I'm involved
with a company called uh cheese and it
has a product called privy and privy is
a private messaging service so it's
double opt-in it's not like text
messages because anybody with your phone
number can text message you it's not
like email because anybody through email
can can email you this is the the use
case is I know exactly who I want in my
group and I have to invite them and they
have to accept so it's double opt-in so
anyway that's the gist of privy and so
I'm on the board of this company And the
tagline for privy was going to be
private messaging for family and friends
and then I read in Persuasion that you
need to personalize this and so last
night right I told them make the tagline
private messaging for your family and
friends
so did I do that right brilliant
thank you well if Bob chaldini says it's
right it's right so let's suppose that
you are given the task of we want to
encourage people to vaccinate their
children
okay yep so using persuasion would you
show a picture of healthy kids playing
together safely on a playground and do
you pre-suade them by saying
do you want your kids to be healthy or
do you show
sick measly kids and ask do you want
your kids to get sick I would show them
pictures of Partnerships and and people
together in uh common uh
working together groups because here's
the real
motivator
for individuals who are concerned about
their kids their their they don't want
to be shunned by their neighbors the
kids uh fellow
classmates the parents of the kids who
they are putting at risk
right by leaving their child
unvaccinated now everybody in the class
is at risk right so what you want to do
is move them from a focus on health and
safety to a focus on togetherness and
partnership right working together and
being part of the team part of the group
in belonging so persuasively and then
persuasively what I would do is I would
get what we call a convert Communicator
to speak to the importance of
vaccinations somebody who can honestly
say I used to be
in the anti-vaccination camp
just like you but then I saw something
happen that changed my belief so this
isn't about science now this is about a
peer
right piercuasion somebody just like me
saw something to change his or her mind
in
personal experiences that they've had
and now that message
I think is more powerful than the kind
of message from scientific authorities
who can be easily dismissed as part of
the scientific Big Pharma uh uh
Coalition trying to fool us
I couldn't you make the case that the
anti-vaxxers have used that very
effectively when they show some mom
saying the moment my kid got an MMR he
turned autistic right
yes it's a it's a social process it's a
so it's it's pure persuasion
you can get it to work in your favor by
using this concept called a convert
communicator
uh
as as an expert in Pre and persuasion
can you do without political bias
because I know what your bias is and and
you know what my bias is but what is an
analysis of Donald Trump as a pre-suader
Persuader influencer
yeah so one of the things he does
um very with a lot of of persuasion uh
is to use social proof how many times
have you heard him say
everybody's saying or a lot of people
think or I've just heard many that many
people are now saying wow
congratulations on that move into Syria
I just heard him saying that yesterday
the idea is a lot of people are
supporting this which causes people to
say oh if a lot of others like me think
this is right is likely to be right I
thought he did a terrific job in his
campaign when during his events
he would ask the media the television
cameras he would say turn around don't
just shoot the stage show all the people
who are here right and show the size of
the crowd because it was the crowd
that then convinced viewers
that
a lot of people
believe what this man is saying
I should listen he's at least
entitled to have me listen
given the kinds of crowds that he can
draw to flip that what should someone
running against him do so I'm gonna go
back to this very under employed
strategy we just talked about and that
is the convert Communicator right
where people you can say tv ads or
other kinds of of messaging
I was a trump voter right I believed him
and then I found that my job went away
or then I found that you know he failed
to pay my cousin who was working on a a
building project just because he could
or then I found I heard that my
father-in-law said
he
just
cheated him and said take me to court
well my father-in-law didn't have the
money so you find somebody who is who
was one of a supporter and then you say
but I've changed
I've changed because of something I
didn't know before right and now
everybody knows it in the way that you
message about it Apple kind of employed
that at one point when they you know
they featured I used to be a you know
True Believer it was an MS boss and then
I switched to MacIntosh and now I'm more
creative and productive same concept
where you if you take somebody's message
who was
one of you is very difficult to
disregard the validity of the message
because this was somebody who believed
what you believed right you can't just
say oh that's some wide-eyed uh crazy
man
who jumps at the newest product you know
Apple no this is somebody who once
believed what you believed but there's
new information in the system
I should listen to the next thing this
person says one of the important
offshoots of that is
essentially you are not saying
you are stupid
you are saying that I was just like you
and then I got more information because
we're both smart we should make a new
decision based on the new information
it's not that we're dumb we had the
wrong information or incomplete
information before is that the gist of
it that's the Bull's Eye do you get
people to distance themselves from a
previous commitment by saying you
weren't stupid you weren't wrong you
weren't a dupe at that time the
information that you had led to a
reasonable choice but we have new
information now
so it allows that person
to distance from that earlier choice in
a way that they wouldn't have without
pointing to new information
where we get to reset and make our
choice again that's what good decision
makers do
brilliant because of the power and
efficacy of your your techniques your
findings your thoughts here do you ever
lay it wake at night thinking oh my God
the wrong people are using what I
have figured out
yes I worry a lot about the um the
ethics of this uh of this information
but here's how I've resolved it that
we are entitled to and we should as
consumers pay attention to communicators
who use these principles ethically and
honestly the only people we should be uh
uh alarmed about knowing this is the
people who use this information in a in
a dishonest way so here's my example I
last time I bought a big screen TV I was
in a an electronic shop I wasn't looking
to buy a TV but I saw one on the shelf
that was very well priced it was on sale
and it was very highly
regarded in consumer reports I remember
reading about it so a Salesman saw me
standing there in front of the set and
he said I can see you're interested in
this I see why it's a great deal but I
have to tell you
it's our last one
and then he said
and I just got a call from a woman from
Scottsdale I live in the Scottsdale area
who said she might come by this
afternoon to get it
guy 20 minutes later I'm willing out of
the shop with this set in my cart and
I'm supposed to be the professor of
influence right yeah now here's the key
if it was really the last one if
scarcity really applied
and this salesperson didn't tell me that
it was the last one
right
and I went home to think about and I
came back the next day and it was gone I
would have shouted at this guy why
didn't you tell me it was the last one
so you know I needed that piece of
information so under those circumstances
using these principles of influence
ethically were actually those are those
people are our partners in the exchange
there are allies in the exchange if
however that was a tactic that was just
a technique that he used with everybody
he would say that oh yeah this is the
last one and then he'd go to the back
room and put another uh model on the
Shelf so here's what I did I went back
the next day to see if he was honest
with me
had been there was an empty spot on that
shelf so I went back to my office I
wrote a very positive review of that
shop and that man but if there had been
another one there
I would have written a very negative
review so here's the implication we
can't just be passive consumers we have
to go on the attack
for people who use these principles
these practices unethically who deceive
us with whether there's real scarcity
there whether there's real social proof
whether there's real Authority and so on
if they lie to us we have to we have to
fight back we have to sting them for
that so they can't benefit in a regular
way from that and the internet now
allows us to do that in ways that we
just didn't have before
oh
[Music]
so an example of that would be here's
the picture the campaign showed look at
all the people behind the candidate
and then a reporter says well here's a
picture with the wide-angle lens showing
you that those are the only hundred
people in the audience the rest of the
place was empty right or you see that
with certain kinds demographic groups
right so look there's six uh
African-American people behind the the
candidate right to who's speaking right
and then this and then the reporter says
those were the only six
in the ten thousand people were there
they just recruited all of them to make
it look like there was a general
um across uh ethnic group acceptance of
this kid as a podcaster I need to
introduce every podcast so
I want to ask you a real tactical
question one of the things that I
learned reading your book was the power
of introducing a mystery oh yeah so that
people have to listen or continue to get
the end of the mystery yeah so when I
position this podcast
should I begin it by saying something
like you will learn what a presidential
candidate should do to win from Bob yes
something or no except you would say of
all the things that Bob thought a
presidential candidate could use to win
he selected one
we'll find out what it is
[Laughter]
so okay so to use I just love this so uh
going along those lines when I introduce
Jane Goodall
I should say
I wondered what animal Jane Goodall
would like to come back as
you will find out at the end of this
podcast right something like that yes or
you might say I asked her uh which she
would come back as an even more
interestingly
why that one
and we'll find out oh my God you are the
man you're in her words
I'm gonna let you go right now because
my head is exploding with ideas about
what I have to do and change I wish we
had this conversation a month ago who
will Foster the you'll you'll uh
structure the introduction after
after the interview right so you'll know
which one to choose right yes yes that's
persuasion man that's persuasion so if
if I were to throw all your techniques
into this
I would start off by asking a question
like are you interested in learning
about
or are you interested in learning how to
optimize your life from people right and
that that's the Presa agents that sets
people up for are you a lifetime learner
uh
uh a lot of people are gonna say and
especially
for pieces of information that will
benefit you
personally and professionally
well I've got the podcast for you
because that's what we're going to do
that's what I've that's what I've
decided is the goal of this podcast to
provide that so now you know why
in almost every one of my speeches and I
speak 50 to 75 times a year
there is one slide dedicated to you
because your your information is just
it's Priceless it's Timeless it's
effective it's also very funny I've
never ever ever gotten people who said
wow that you know I already knew that or
didn't matter your stuff is so great so
I thank you Bob so much for doing this I
definitely owe you one and you know I
would do the same
so you just let me know how I can pay
you back all right guys this was this
was great I you know so many interviews
the questions are just banal or vapid
They Don't Really they they haven't made
themselves familiar with the material
this was an entirely different level of
um of experience so I appreciate it now
you know that the optimal response to
thanks is I know you would do the same
for me and you understand why I asked
the question do you have a growth
mindset at the start of this podcast
like it or not life is all about
persuading or persuading people and
you've just learned about these two
skills from the best person in the world
I'm guy Kawasaki and this is remarkable
people my thanks to the ever influential
GFC for her sound design and the ever
persuasive pick Fitzpatrick for ensuring
that you listen to this podcast
[Music]
this is remarkable people
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