FigBrew: Designing AI And Tools For People With Bob Baxley
Summary
TLDRIn diesem faszinierenden Gespräch spricht Andrew Hogan, Head of Insights bei Figma, mit Bob Baxley, SVP of Design bei ThoughtSpot, der Erfahrungen von Apple, Pinterest und Yahoo mitbringt. Sie diskutieren die Zukunft von KI und wie sie unsere Arbeitswelt verändern wird. Baxley teilt seine Erfahrungen mit KI-Tools wie Chat GPT und wie er sie für Reiseplanung und für die Analyse von Inhalten auf LinkedIn nutzt. Sie reflektieren über die Herausforderungen und Chancen von KI, die nicht nur die Technologie sondern auch unser Verständnis von Intelligenz und dem menschlichen Geist hinterfragen. Baxley betont die Bedeutung, sich mit der Vergangenheit und großen Projekten wie dem Apollo-Programm auseinanderzusetzen, um von vergangenen Erfolgen zu lernen und für die Zukunft zu planen. Das Gespräch bietet tiefgründende Einblicke in die Auswirkungen von KI auf Design und die menschliche Erfahrung.
Takeaways
- 🚀 **Innovation und AI**: Bob Baxley, SVP of Design bei ThoughtSpot, diskutiert über die Zukunft von KI und wie sie die Branche beeinflussen wird.
- 🤖 **KI in der Praxis**: Baxley teilt seine Erfahrungen mit KI-Tools wie Chat GPT, Claude und anderen, die er für Reiseplanung und für das Erstellen von Website-Inhalten nutzt.
- 🧐 **KI und das menschliche Verständnis**: Er reflektiert über die menschliche Natur und wie KI unsere Vorstellung von Intelligenz herausfordern könnte.
- 🌟 **Philosophie hinter KI**: Baxley kehrt zu philosophischen Überlegungen zurück, um das Potenzial und die Auswirkungen von KI besser zu verstehen.
- 🌐 **Technologie und Alltagsleben**: Er diskutiert, wie Technologie zur Alltagsroutine geworden ist und wie sie von Menschen, die nicht ständig mit Technologie arbeiten, wahrgenommen wird.
- 🔍 **UX-Design und KI**: ThoughtSpot nutzt KI, um die Benutzeroberfläche zu verbessern und Datenanalysen für Laien zugänglicher zu machen.
- 📈 **Geschäftsstrategie und KI**: ThoughtSpots Mission ist es, eine faktenbasiertere Welt zu schaffen, und KI hilft dabei, diese Vision zu erreichen, indem sie die Komplexität der Datenanalyse für Benutzer reduziert.
- 🤔 **Persönliche Entwicklung**: Baxley betont die Bedeutung einer offenen Mentalität gegenüber Veränderungen und der Fähigkeit, sich nicht an die Vergangenheit zu klammern.
- 👀 **Beobachtung der Benutzer**: Er empfiehlt, sich die Zeit nehmen zu观察 (beobachten), wie normale Menschen Software nutzen, um ein besseres Verständnis für die Bedürfnisse der Benutzer zu erhalten.
- 🌱 **Kulturelle Bedeutung von Großprojekten**: Baxley ist von großen Projekten wie der Apollo-Mission oder der Gründung von Disneyland beeindruckt und sieht in ihnen wichtige Lehren für heutige Projekte.
- 📚 **Lernen aus der Geschichte**:历史文化 (Historische Kultur) und Großprojekte bieten wertvolle Fälle, um Strategien und Mentalitäten zu studieren, die für erfolgreiche Zusammenarbeit und Projektmanagement relevant sind.
Q & A
Was ist das Hauptthema des Gesprächs?
-Das Hauptthema des Gesprächs ist die Zukunft der künstlichen Intelligenz (KI) und wie sie die Arbeitswelt und das Leben der Menschen beeinflussen wird.
Welche Unternehmen hat Bob Baxley schon gearbeitet?
-Bob Baxley hat bei Unternehmen wie Apple, Pinterest und Yahoo gearbeitet.
Was ist Fig Brew?
-Fig Brew ist eine von Figma initiierte Plattform, die darauf abzielt, das Bewusstsein für die Entwicklungen in der Industrie zu erhöhen, und sie teilen diese Informationen mit der Community.
Was ist Bob Baxleys aktuelles Unternehmen?
-Bob Baxley ist derzeit Senior Vice President of Design bei ThoughtSpot.
Was ist ThoughtSpot?
-ThoughtSpot ist ein Business Intelligence-Tool, das Datenanalysen in Form von Diagrammen und Graphen für große Datenmengen ermöglicht.
Wie hat AI Bob Baxleys Arbeitsablauf verändert?
-AI hat es Bob ermöglicht, Aufgaben wie Reiseplanung und das Identifizieren von Themen in Texten mithilfe von Chat GPT und anderen Technologien effizienter durchzuführen.
Was ist Bob Baxleys Meinung über die Verbreitung von AI-Technologien?
-Bob Baxley ist der Meinung, dass KI-Technologien wie Chat GPT und Dolly die Welt der Technologienaffinen Menschen überwunden und sich in der breiteren Öffentlichkeit durchgesetzt haben.
Welche Rolle spielt die Philosophie in Bezug auf KI?
-Die Philosophie spielt eine wichtige Rolle, da sie das Verständnis von künstlicher Intelligenz vertieft und Fragen nach der Natur der Intelligenz und ihrer Auswirkungen auf die menschliche Identität stellt.
Was ist Bob Baxleys Hintergrund?
-Bob Baxley hat ein Hintergrund in Design und hat an der College-Historie und Filmstudie teilgenommen. Er ist auch an der Verbindung von Vergangenheit und Gegenwart in Bezug auf Design interessiert.
Wie sieht Bob Baxleys Vision für die Zukunft der Software-Nutzung aus?
-Bob Baxley glaubt an eine Zukunft, in der Software besser für Menschen funktioniert und als Werkzeug zur Verbesserung des Lebens dient, anstatt sie zu disziplinieren oder zu behindern.
Was sind die Herausforderungen, die Designer bei der Integration von KI in ihre Produkte sehen?
-Die Herausforderungen umfassen die Schaffung einer Benutzererfahrung, die einfach zu bedienen ist, die die Komplexität der Datenanalysen für Benutzer reduziert und gleichzeitig die Möglichkeit bietet, Daten ausgiebig zu erkunden und zu verstehen.
Outlines
🤖 AI的未来发展
Andrew Hogan与Bob Baxley讨论了AI的未来发展。Bob分享了他在ThoughtSpot的工作经验,以及他如何在个人项目中使用AI,例如利用Chat GPT分析LinkedIn帖子的主题,并将其与斯多葛哲学家的主题进行比较。Bob还讨论了AI在法律专业朋友中的应用,以及AI如何快速生成旅行计划。此外,他们还探讨了AI对经济和世界的影响,以及在硅谷的日常生活中对技术的关注。
🧠 AI与哲学的交汇
Bob和Andrew讨论了AI如何让他重新对哲学产生兴趣,特别是关于机器智能的哲学。他们讨论了神经网络自20世纪50年代以来的理论,以及我们现在拥有的硬件和软件系统如何使这些理论成为可能。Bob分享了他阅读的书籍,包括《God Human Animal Machine》和《Other Minds》,这些书籍探讨了智能的本质,包括人类、动物和机器的智能。他们还讨论了人们对机器智能的焦虑和恐惧,以及这如何影响人们对AI的看法。
📊 ThoughtSpot的AI集成
Bob解释了ThoughtSpot如何使用AI来简化数据分析,使其更易于非专业用户使用。ThoughtSpot的目标是让决策更加基于事实而非直觉。通过AI,用户可以用自然语言提问,而ThoughtSpot的系统会将这些问题转换为公司内部数据模型的语言,从而返回用户所需的图表和结果。Bob强调了AI在降低技术复杂性方面的作用,并将其比作翻译服务。
🚀 从历史中学习
Bob和Andrew讨论了历史在设计和AI发展中的重要性。Bob强调了从历史中学习的价值,以及如何通过研究过去的设计和技术创新来获得灵感。他们讨论了chronocentrism(时代中心主义)的概念,即人们倾向于认为所有重要的事情都发生在他们自己的一生中。Bob建议设计师应该超越这种思维方式,通过学习历史来连接更广泛的社区和知识体系。
🤔 AI对设计师工作的影响
Bob分享了他对AI可能取代人类工作的担忧,特别是对于设计师而言。他讨论了如何通过观察人们使用软件来保持与用户的联系,并强调了在设计过程中考虑用户的重要性。Bob还提到了企业软件对用户的影响,以及设计师如何通过改进企业软件来提高人们的生活质量。他强调了简化和最小主义在设计中的重要性,并指出许多企业软件产品缺乏这种考虑。
🌟 人类合作的大项目
Bob讨论了他对大型人类合作项目的兴趣,特别是阿波罗登月计划。他分享了对这些项目如何实现的好奇,以及从这些历史案例中学习的重要性。Bob提到了肯尼迪的登月演讲,并分析了其如何有效地传达愿景并激励人们。他还提到了其他大型项目,如迪士尼乐园的建设,并强调了研究这些项目背后的文化和流程的重要性。
🧐 面对不确定性
Bob和Andrew讨论了如何在不确定性中找到安慰,以及如何从历史中学习来应对当前的不确定性。他们讨论了将历史作为一种工具,帮助我们理解参与者在不知道结果时的思维方式。Bob强调了在不确定性中寻找学习和成长机会的重要性,并感谢Andrew参与讨论。
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Künstliche Intelligenz (AI)
💡ThoughtSpot
💡Designphilosophie
💡Benutzererfahrung (UX)
💡Enterprise-Software
💡Apollo-Programm
💡Konversationsal AI
💡Data Analytics
💡Natürliche Sprache Verarbeitung (NLP)
💡KI-Integration
💡Kultur eines Unternehmens
Highlights
Bob Baxley, SV of design at ThoughtSpot, discusses the future of AI and its impact on the industry.
Baxley's experience from Apple, Pinterest, and Yahoo provides a unique perspective on AI's role in tech advancements.
The discussion covers AI's ability to identify themes in data, as demonstrated by Baxley's use of chat GPT on his travel planning tweets.
AI's potential to transform user experiences, as seen in the comparison of AI-generated travel itineraries to human-made ones.
Baxley's personal use of AI tools like chat GPT and Claude for various tasks, including building a website and content creation.
The philosophical implications of AI and machine intelligence, drawing parallels to human and animal intelligence.
ThoughtSpot's mission to create a more fact-driven world through data analytics and business intelligence tools.
How ThoughtSpot uses AI to simplify complex data queries, making it accessible to non-technical business users.
Baxley's emphasis on the importance of designers understanding the end-users and the human element of software interaction.
The challenge of enterprise software usability and the opportunity for designers to improve user experiences.
Baxley's belief in the significance of studying historical large-scale projects, like the Apollo missions, for insights into successful collaboration and innovation.
The cultural and process-oriented lessons that can be learned from successful companies like Apple and their approach to product development.
The importance of minimalism in product design and the challenge of saying no to additional features for the sake of usability.
Baxley's perspective on the future of work in the context of AI and the need for professionals to adapt their skills and mindset.
The concept of 'baseline thinking' and its role in helping individuals manage change and avoid attachment to outdated methods.
Practical advice for designers on observing how everyday people use software to gain insights and improve the user experience.
Baxley's call to action for designers to focus on the human impact of their work and to create software that serves the user, not the other way around.
Transcripts
[Music]
what's AI going to do next I talked to
Bob Baxley SV of design at thoughts spot
with experience from Apple Pinterest and
Yahoo about that very question my name
is Andrew Hogan head of insights at
figma and this is big Brew big Brew is
something that we were doing inside of
figma to raise our level of awareness
about what's happening in the industry
and we thought we should share it all
with you hope you
enjoy Bob welcome to Fig Brew Andrew
thanks for having me excited to be here
amazing to talk with you uh I know
you've been at Apple Pinterest Yahoo
you're now at thoughts spot but to be
honest the only thing people care about
is AI so I want you to tell me what's
the last thing you did with AI really I
thought all they cared about this
weekend was the Apple Vision Pro but
yeah so we're still talking AI now
they're going to have ai ai look guys
I'm I'm playing around with chat GPT and
and Claude and other stuff as well
playing around with mid Journey uh and
Dolly I personally I've uh I've used it
a little bit for travel planning I have
uh a lot of different U little things
that I post on LinkedIn and I'm trying
to build a website around those so I
have like 600 of these different little
basically tweets and one of the one of
the interesting things I did is I gave
that list of 400 of these tweets to chat
GPT and I said can you tell me the 13
themes that are captured in these things
and of course it did did that in like I
don't know 10 seconds which is
absolutely mindboggling and then I'm
it's sort of self-help type content so
then I was like can you take that list
of 13 themes and compare it to the 13
themes of the stoic philosophers and
then it could do that and then okay now
slice it against montain and it could do
that and then my head kind of explodes
because you start to realize what the
heck is actually going on uh and one one
of the things I tell people about the AI
is my my wife used to be an attorney and
we have dinner parties or over attorney
friends and they're sort of naturally
skeptical people that's what makes them
attorneys and I'll start talking about
Ai and they kind of bring that
skepticism and I'll try out my phone
I'll go well let's just try question and
they'll say something like you know
let's imagine we're doing travel
planning I'm like okay two we vacation
in France 60 year-old couple interested
in music movies and food or something
you know and then it like kicks out a
day day by day almost hour by hour
itinerary in like I don't know 20
seconds and then somebody at the table
go yeah but that's not exactly the thing
I would do I don't think I would do that
on day to to which I have to go could we
just stop here for a minute and think
about what's happened here it is
absolutely mindboggling because you
could have put in anything and this
system's going to respond to you Bob you
said the phrase you know eating Tech
like what what does that mean and how
how do you think that changes people's
perception of these things I I mean it's
just what part of the economy and the
happening in the world you're paying
attention to right and like people like
you and me and a lot of my neighbors
here in Silicon Valley like we just
think Tech all the time it's the
centerpiece of our life like we live for
it we're not just looking at computers
to find the content we're looking at
computers cuz we're thinking about
Computing all the time we're noticing
all these things in the landscape I
talked to Young designers about this all
the time are are you paying attention to
the point of s system at the gas station
are you are you deconstructing the
conceptual model of what it means to buy
gasoline at the pump when you're looking
at self checkout and it's treating you
like a criminal are you noticing that
the fragmentation between all the
different vendors that came to play to
make that thing work like isn't it clear
to you that the point of sale piece
where they're taking your credit card is
completely bolted on to this other
system and that there's like friction in
that fragmentation and that's resulting
in like a really poor user experience I
mean I could go on and on there's like
software in every corner of your life uh
and most most you know mere mortals as I
call them like normal people who don't
eat Tech all the time you know they're
just moving through life and kind of
being forced to use all that stuff and
they're not really it's just become sort
of the ambient of Modern Life and those
of us in the industry I think you kind
of look at it in a different way the
data would say that like you know chat
GPT and Dolly like the mid Journey all
of those things have actually broken out
of the world of people who eat Tech I
can't believe I repeating that and we
were going to maybe make an but but but
you know like they've broken out of that
world and it's surprising to the extent
that that's happened I think yeah luk I
think there's there's we're moving out
of like the just the pure early adopter
stuff um and I haven't seen the usage
figures for those things I mean clearly
these systems are going to be transform
transformative I still just don't think
the common person on the street has a
good conceptual model of what they could
use this thing for and so right now
there is a lot of party tricks you know
and we could all name the same things
you know travel planning and I guess
asking questions about the Romans or
something you know I've never done that
one summarizing you know summarizing
papers or you know whatever like there's
a handful of use cases that people kind
of understand it's a difficult
conceptual model it's very very
different from how we've thought about
Computing in the past like radically
different it's a completely different
approach to Computing it's a me I was
going to say you know one of the things
that's I found most interesting about
the stuff with AI over the last year is
it's gotten me plugged back into the
philosophy around AI because the kinds
of systems we have now the neural
network stuff has been theorized since
the 1950s we just haven't had the
computing power and the storage to be
able to pull it off so you know what we
what you have with chat GPT is not not
really so much understanding it's not
really so much a breakthrough from a
computer science point of view it's a
breakthrough in that we finally have the
hardware and the software systems to
pull it off and so there's like 50 years
of people writing about what is what is
machine intelligence going to mean and
it's uh it's got me reading some really
interesting books but around this time
last year I read a book called God human
animal machine which is kind of about
the nature of intelligence and you know
we used to just think it was only God
that was intelligent and then that kind
of spanned to humans are intelligent now
we think about animal intelligence and
now we're wrestling with the question of
machine intelligence and and what does
that mean that was a very fascinating
kind of philosophical book and then I
followed that with another one called
other Minds which is about um octopuses
and and Squids and seapods and kind of
their their kind of intelligence and the
the theory of that book is if you go
back to if you go back 500 million years
ago humans in octopuses shared this
common ancestor called this flat worm
where the flat worm's clearly not
intelligent fast forward 500 million
years you got human beings like to think
we're intelligent you got octopus is
clearly intelligent Nature has has
created intelligence two at least two
times and radically different ways what
does that really mean like how do we
think about human intelligence you know
I think that's to me that's like the
really fascinating philosophical
question that we're facing now when
you're looking at Ai and what it can do
and it's I think that I think that that
that tension underg guards a lot of
people's initial sense of skepticism and
I think there's just kind of an anxiety
and fear about like what mean like the
idea that a machine could be intelligent
and that it could give answers in the
way that a human would it could create
answers that kind of thing I mean it
could replace me it could do a lot of
the things that I do and and when you go
back and you look at like the anxiety uh
around deep blue when it when when it
beat Gary Casper off at at chess like
that was a very pivotal moment you go
watch the alpha go documentary on
YouTube about when Alpha go want it
wanted the game against go and like the
the guy that was playing His Name
Escapes Me The Dan from I think he was
from in Japan he was rushed like like he
left at one point he like goes he like
leaves the the the the place the where
the game was taking place leaves the
room and goes outside and and he is like
stressed so there's a completely new
method of computing and thinking and
interacting your response to that as a
person who eats Tech is to go read about
philosophy and sort of go back to
history and then sort of you have this
this belief that like it's going to do a
lot of the things that you do today like
how do you feel about that I don't know
man I'm feeling it out you know I'm
trying not to be anxious and freaked out
about it but you know change is change
is coming and a lot of the things that
I've thought were important for me to be
able to do and I could uniquely do in my
job I don't know if that's actually
going to end up being the case or not
yeah there's an interesting challenge
like I think it makes you confront what
does it mean to be human and uh what is
my value as a human outside my ability
to be able to execute you know certains
of these tasks asks um and I think
that's a that's a real meaty
psychological and liberal arts problem
to deal with yeah which is part of why
you know I assume you're going back to
the history and you you know mentioned
the stoics earlier and you know that
that yeah I'm always drawn to that sort
of stuff I mean you know part of it's
it's just how I'm tuned I studied
history in college along with film and
I've just sort of always been tuned to
like what if what's happened in the past
those are amazing Stories and how did
people learn from them you see some of
the Apollo stuff kind of over there in
the back background personally I find
connecting to the past to be very
rewarding and grounding and I think it's
one of the challenges when I talk to
younger designers I think it's one of
the things that I try to council them on
is a lot of lot of folks today don't
realize that there's like you know
history design goes back at least a
century and if not more and many of the
problems that we're dealing with today
about how to explain the value of design
how to think about design the design
process the psychology the designer
mindset all those things people have
been writing and thinking about that
stuff for decades and decades like we're
not the first folks to figure this out
and why we like to think that we're
unique and it's this unique historical
moment that's um that's this concept
called Chrono centricity and Chronos
centricity is the belief that everything
interesting happened in your own
lifetime I think the problem with that
is it ends up being super isolating
because you end up feeling like you have
to uniquely figure out these problems
and there's nobody to learn from and no
Community to connect to whereas you know
by connecting to historical graphic
designers or the Arts and Crafts
movement or going back to some of the
early Tech Pioneers like vver Bush or
Doug engelbart or Stuart brand you
realize oh I'm I'm actually part of this
community of this you know human
exploration that expands out over time
and uh at least in my case you know it
keeps me from feeling so isolated and
alone when I'm confronting some of the
challenges of being a designer in the
modern world excellent advice you gave
some names maybe we'll give people a few
links that they can follow um or some
some other um but it is it's it's
striking when I talk to you how much uh
history comes up how much like patterns
that have repeated themselves come up um
and I have to imagine you're drawing on
that you know with the work today
because you also mentioned these devices
this technology um could replace some of
the things you do today but you are
actively also designing things that are
helpful in augmenting people's work and
so you've been thinking about how to
apply it and how to think about it in
the context of uh data engineer the AI I
um engineer the sort of the folks using
thoughtspot yeah so thought spot's a
business intelligence tool right so we
do data analytics basically charts and
graphs for big gigantic data sets uh we
compete with the likes of Tableau
powerbi and many many other uh companies
the vision of thoughts spot that the
founders set forth when they founded the
company was a more fact-driven world
right so we wanted that the change they
wanted to see in the world was a world
where decisions were based more on fact
than just opinions and intuition and so
from that you get the mission of trying
to get the thoughts spot product into
the hands of millions of users and from
that then we get a ux strategy that we
refer to is encourage exploration and
reward curiosity and then that leads to
a handful of tenants of how we think
about the design of the product now
what's unique about our product is we're
trying to get data analytics into the
hands of business users the challenge
for that is that in order to use our
tool or any others like most of our
competitors tblo and powerbi again
examples you would have to go get
specialized training those are
professional tools you know they're sort
of the bi equivalent of Photoshop like
you're not just going to get in those
tools and figure stuff out like you're
going to have to get some training but
the goal of thought spot is to just put
data analytics into the hands of normal
folks which means we need to have a tool
that you can just sit down at and make
sense of you know which is why I went
there because that's ultimately a very
big and interesting ux design challenge
that I think we've done a really great
job of we're broadly recognized as
having the best UI in the in the space
and people buy the product because of
the design and because of the usability
but there's still a fundamental
challenge which is for a business user
to sit and use our tool they have to
understand or they historically they've
had to understand their company's
underlying data model they had to know
what particular columns were called Etc
now we have a simplified version of of
SQL that allows them to be able to
create uh much less uh structured
queries than they would have to do in a
in a traditional language like SQL but
they still kind of had to have the
vocabulary of the data model what we've
been able to do with AI over the last
year is we've been able to use chat GPT
to go between how somebody might ask a
natural language question and then map
that into the company's data model so
somebody can say What Would by sales in
North America and physical you know 2022
uh by region and there's actually a
whole bunch of different column names in
there that could that there's different
ways companies refer to to sales
different ways to refer to region Etc
and in the past you would have had to
know exactly what those column names
were with our AI integration you can ask
that a very natural way and we can go
off and interpolate that so we we're
using AI almost like a trans translation
service where somebody can ask something
in English and we're able to convert
that over into their kind of internal
data model language to then bring back
the chart and the results that they're
looking for and really aligned with the
the mission of you know curiosity and
exploration and it's very punishing when
you write code that doesn't work and so
getting something back is better than
getting nothing back for sure yeah so so
if you go back to again our our strategy
of encourage exploration and reward
curiosity like one of the one of our 10
is nobody wants to learn the product
know and and that means nobody wants to
ever be stuck and have to read a manual
it also means they don't want to hit an
error right and in in in coding
environments and you know most of our
competitors again there's just lots of
ways that you can dig yourself into a
hole and not know what to do next and
our goal is to create a feeling where
you can just stay and explore the data
you know hopefully you kind of find fall
down a rabbit hole you know our our our
conceptually I'd love to see our product
kind of be like the Wikipedia of your
data model and in my you know I imagine
users sitting there kind of Surfing the
data of their company in probably kind
of an undirected just humanly curious
way I just want to wander the data and
see what I can find you know that
requires a lot of sophisticated
technology because these data models are
hard to navigate and complicated and
technically specific so just be able to
click on things and have it constantly
bringing you back results and results
that are valid and accurate and
everything else and that you can
understand like I mean in many ways
that's been tech for 50 years right like
moving from Main frames to personal
computers to from command lines to goys
to you're essentially following a very
similar kind of path and you've put an
AI translation layer as sort of the next
stage the next part of the evolution
there yeah you know I sort of uh I have
this thing where I say you know every
problem has you know it's its fixed
units of complexity and the question is
is it going to be the system that's
going to suck up the complexity or the
humans and most companies are trying to
find where they want to be on that scale
you know in companies like apple they
they put a lot more emphasis in the
system the system being the thing that's
going to take care of the complexity and
much less complexity for the users and
we're trying to move that needle in our
very technical space as well you know
and then look that's our strategy and I
think it's the right strategy it's a
great strategy there is another strategy
that says no no no like you know you
have to know your stuff like it's we're
going to give you technical powers and
there's going to be like a really robust
set of things you can do but you're
going to have to learn how to operate
the system and that's yeah it's also a
valid approach again just not the one
that's consistent with our business
model and how we think about the space I
sort of you know the comparison I use is
like Photoshop to canva you know there's
space for both not everybody that needs
to produce assets wants to learn
everything you have to learn to be able
to use these other projects some people
just want simpler stuff well and it also
I know it's personally pretty aligned
with your your philosophy too of uh your
personal philosophy of you know making
things simpler for the user and making
things more approachable and I just see
I see a lot of align here it feel like
you you've helped shape that yeah look
whenever I get a chance to to talk to
other folks or to have a moment on stage
one of the things I try to do is take
the audience which is generally
designers back to like why we do what we
do you know and being a designer is it's
a tough thing you know I think people
get into it pretty optimistic and maybe
a little naive about what it's going to
be like but the stakes are really high
in software there's a lot of money to be
made there's a lot of attention to be
guarded from different companies and so
the stakes are high that means it's a
difficult field where a create a
professional to survive in but I try to
remind people that there actually are
folks on the other side of the glass and
it's weird cuz in software we don't see
the people on the other side of the
glass it's a unattributed medium they
don't see us they don't know who we are
um and we never get to see them been
fortunate to work on products that have
been used by over a billion people I've
never seen anyone use anything I've
designed in the wild in real time just
happening right like which never never
never I've never stumbled in somebody
using the apple on onl store oh stum
okay so so but you I mean you've watched
people yeah I've watched people but it's
always organized right I mean so organic
organically you've never okay that makes
sense yeah so like my audience is
relatively unknown to me and hard to get
to and there's no other medium like this
I mean a film director even though
they're abstracted from Their audience
they can always go to the movie theater
and watch people watching the movie and
they can always watch people watching
another movie A musicians get to perform
in front of an audience so they get to
build that rapport with the audience
artists can go to their opening they get
to build a report With Their audience
but designers like we don't have any
rapport with our audience you know even
though our audience is massive and so
one of the again one of the things I try
to always remind designers is you got to
think about the folks on the other side
of the glass because that's why we're
all drawn to do this thing my sense is
that uh when I when I use computers and
they work right um it is just absolutely
magic to me you heard my enthusiasm
earlier about using chat PT it is
mind-bogglingly cool to me in a really
fundamental way it's like looking up at
the stars or something you know there's
something profoundly unknowable about
what happens inside this little metal
box on my desk that's making this moment
possible it's absolutely mindboggling
what's actually happening with us right
now from a technical point of view um
and a personal point of view but you
know it's um mostly technical but a lot
of times it goes wrong right and and we
all have to use crappy software that we
don't like like self checkout right that
treats you like a criminal which it's
always a but then sometimes you get the
one that's really well done yeah and and
then it's magic it's magical yeah and so
I go you know I look around the built
environments you know and I think about
the built virtual environment and I
think a lot of mere mortals people that
don't eat Tech you know spend a lot of
time probably feeling kind of victimized
by it like it doesn't quite work they
don't really know who to blame there's
like these faceless bureaucracies that
we call Facebook and Google and Amazon
and apple that are pushing all this
stuff on them and that change stuff
behind their back and you you know
that's not even counting for all the
Enterprise tools they have to use and I
just suspect a lot of them feel awfully
frustrated and again kind of victimized
honestly it kind of breaks my heart
because I think using computers and
using software is one of the Miracles of
Modern Life right up there with jet
travel you know and fresh sushi or
something you know and so so when it
doesn't go right I just I I don't know
it just it it really troubles me kind of
at a deep moral level uh because I feel
that whoever created that system just
couldn't find it themselves to spend the
extra time to care about the people on
the other side of the glass of which
there are millions describe this sort of
like you know going back in history to
sort of think about this moment um and
to think about uh the impact that AI
might have and how you should deal with
it you've talked about using um thought
spot as a way to sort of like you know
help other people work more successfully
and you kind of like I know this is part
of your your core like Mission how you
want things you want the world to sort
of be designed better you want software
to work better for people and I you want
people to be able to do that work
successfully but you also just described
you were a little worried about the
impact that AI might have on the work
that you do and the skills that you need
I imagine lots of other people would
also be worried about that and thinking
about you're designing a certain way
today you're designing AI features today
in a certain way um how might it work in
the future and then like what skills uh
would you tell people to have so they
could sort of keep with this same
mission of how do I you know make
software work better for people what do
you what do you think they should be
sort of like trying to learn or do
obviously we live in an era of profound
change you know and I think we will see
more change in our lifetime than any
generation in history um although we may
not recognize it as much because we're
so used to the change humans aren't
really no animals really well set up for
the amount of change that we're dealing
with right now so what I think about the
things you need to learn it's a lot of
it's probably around just your mindset
you know like how are you how are you
managing the change are you getting
attached to certain things that are
going to be shifted out from underneath
you you know I I focus a lot personally
uh on what I call Baseline thinking
which is to make my judgments today
based on how the situation used to be in
the past um and you see people do that
you know where they drive around around
their Hometown and they kind of go oh I
remember when that was a field right and
they kind of get nostalgic and a little
bit down that that used to be a field
and now it's a parking lot or something
and I think that's a sign of somebody
that's not really keeping up um and if
you can't keep up and just kind of go
with the flow of what's happening around
you you're going to get really
frustrated and unhappy really quickly
and so I think as a mindset skill just
being comfortable with change and not
getting too attached and not believing
that you know what's going to happen I
think those are all just again kind of
really important mindset skills that I
focus on quite a bit through journaling
and other practices so I think that's
kind of on the maybe the soft skill side
more on the hard skill side I mean I
don't know if I have any great advice
there watching normal people use
software I think is incredibly valuable
and something I don't see many folks
doing anymore I was never a huge fan of
traditional usability testing because I
often found it to be wildly inconclusive
and have some other challeng but there
was something profound about watching
mere mortals actually use software and
with a lot of things now moving to
metrics based decisionmaking instead of
like watching real users I think we've
lost something important like we've
gotten again kind of really abstracted
and removed from our audience and
whatever they do on server logs does not
tell you what's happening at the human
level and so I I wish there was a way
where designers could get more connected
to to just watching how people use
software and in my own life much you
know kind of much to my annoyance when
we're you know when we're at a dinner
party I often ask the other people
around me if I could look at their phone
cuz I'm just trying to figure out like
which apps they use and if there's
something I don't recognize I'll ask
them about that you know when my kids
were in high school and they'd have a
friend over I would actually proactively
try to watch their friends using
Snapchat and other things because I just
wanted to understand how people are
navigating that stuff when we travel at
Disneyland I talk to the employees all
the time about what the back of house
systems look like you know and how they
know when to punch in and punch out and
what shift they're on when you're at the
airport you know if the next time you go
to the airport if you if you go up to
the the ticket counter and you ask to
change seats they're going to type for
like five minutes you know try to I mean
you know just stop and ask them like
what are you doing you know like because
you because they're on this like really
dos-based kind of system how you ask
them what are you doing maybe a little
yeah no but you can ask them you can
just be curious you know you can look
over I mean every time I'm in a
restaurant I ask the the the the service
staff what they think of toast or Clover
whatever they're using you know I kind
of lean over the system that's the
really I feel like there is something
too like we have now been more exposed
to the the things that they were using
on the other side with self-checkout and
you know with you get this little
Glimpse and it it is it is alarming
because that is the easier to use
version than what than what they get um
and we've all experienced you click one
button to change seats on an airline
website or in an app yeah they do not
click one button there's clearly more
happening over there no no well I asked
them one time what was going on and they
what they told me is that they were
chatting with other agents on the line
where they were trying to move multiple
passengers to request to accommodate
your request and so there's people that
they had been Auto assigned into seats
and they were trying to figure out if
they could move them to accommodate what
your request was since You' made a
request and so it wasn't like what was
actually happening with all those
keystrokes is not what you thought was
happening to your point like one of the
reasons that I enjoy working at
Enterprise software is because to me
that's a place where you can have kind
of the greatest impact on the quality of
somebody's life because the people that
use Enterprise software the users are
rarely the customers typically somebody
using enterprise software including our
own you know that's dictated from the
CIO or somebody somebody else made that
purchasing decision and this tool just
arrives and they have to use it those
tools often aren't very thoughtfully
designed like the quality of the UI is
not often part of the the purchase
consideration and I think those people
just feel end up feeling really
victimized you know and they get bummed
with their employer like why did you
give us these crappy tools and this
thing's not working and so I think
enterprise software is an interesting
place for designers to put their energy
cuz for what it's like super easy to
move the needle um and you can have a
tremendous impact on the quality
people's lives cuz if there's a little
bit of friction in Enterprise software
product and you can get rid of it you've
taken that friction out of somebody's
life a dozen times a day cuz they're in
those systems over and over and over
again and they don't have the freedom to
switch to something else so I it's an
easy do you think it's getting better
you and I have talked about this for the
past couple years and I actually I'm
curious like do you do you have a that
it's improving I don't know if it's
improving and then probably more
importantly I don't know if I am
metaphysically capable of being a good
judge of that you know like I think my
designer mindset is always trying to
like every cell in my body is constantly
asking how can this be better so it's
not like I have some perspective that
it's gotten better I'm just constantly
trying to figure out how to make it
better so I'm not a good judge in that
way I suppose a different response I
might have is it yeah I think software's
maybe become a little bit easier to use
but we've also added more and more
capability so I think we've sort of
undermined any progress we've made in
usability by just stuffing more and more
features into these products features
are that's an easy thing for people to
build that seems like the obvious thing
to build it seems like oh I should just
can't of do this and do this and do this
and do this and there's there's very few
companies that are willing to say no no
it's going to do this set of things but
it's going to do them really well and
that's going to be incredibly valuable
minimalism is not something that's
appreciated in in tech for whatever
reason like it's not consumers buy for
either you know it's like I mean I was
going to say the Enterprise in the
Enterprise World especially you know
you're up against a feature checklist we
have all these things and they don't
have these things and then that
incentivizes it and we haven't even
gotten to the number of products that
companies use which I think has probably
only increased over the last couple
years oh yeah so it's possible that you
know individual workflows for some
things have improved greatly and then on
the whole it's tough to tell yeah I
remember when I onboarded and thought
spot uh just the number I I I you the
number of pieces of software that I was
just assumed to know and to have to make
sense of and to use just right out the
gate and I you know I did know most of
them but there was like two dozen
different pieces of software that you're
just to be a modern knowledge worker
that you're just expected to know right
off the bat that's an incredible tax you
know but those things also make other
people's lives better usually like
there's there's probably some you know
some piece ofof software that's really
helpful for the accounting department
one piece of software that's really
helpful for someone different in the
accounting department and then there's
you know a procurement thing and then
there's a uh HR software and then
there's and so I you know it is it is a
tricky balance of like how do you think
about all these different workflows and
the different pieces of software try to
stitch it together in some like you know
easy way yeah absolutely see where you
could move the needle but I also see how
it's pretty tough
what you just described as a reason I'm
still doing software design you know 33
years on and I have to admit you know I
often feel that I'm kind of it's rightly
it's kind of a losing battle at times
but you know it's a battle worth having
because we shouldn't be victimized by
our tools like these tools are here to
serve us maybe we don't know how to make
sense of AI or but the idea that it's
threatening to us tells me something
that's kind of gone ay all these tools
should be making our lives as humans
better and not that many of them are
it's a that's a real loss to humanity
it's a it's a yeah I don't know it's
it's I hate to kind of put it in these
moral terms but you know well but you
you see an opportunity and I think that
is the that's one of the one of the
other things I wanted to ask you about
is you have this you have this interest
in big projects that humans countries
you know
peoples uh have tackled throughout
history um and what you just described
as a you know it's a big project how are
we going to you know make this soft
software make sure the software is
working for us how we all going to work
together to do that tell me about this
big project I don't know what to call it
like it's not quite an obsession um and
you know oh why why I've drawn to Big
projects yeah and what are the big
projects that you think about yeah so I
think the first one was the Apollo
missions the Apollo moon landings you
know and uh I was born in 1963 oddly I
should have been more interested in it
when they landed in 1969 but it's just
not kind of the the MEO of the family I
grew up in so I kind of remember
watching it but not really but I got
into it in my 20s when I think there was
there was one night I just looked up at
the full moon and I think it just hit me
we'd gone to the moon like six people
walked on the surface of the Moon they
camped out you know I'm sorry 12 people
had walked on the surface of the Moon we
had we had six different campouts you
know on the surface of the Moon and when
you look at it in the night sky and you
really conceptualize that it's just
absolutely mindboggling like the
audacity of it and that we did it like
six times between July 1969 and I think
it was January 1972 like it's 50 years
ago you know it's over 50 years ago that
jeene cernon and Harrison Schmidt left
left the surface of the Moon for Apollo
7 or you know exited the moon on Apollo
17 and their Footprints are still up
there the computers that they landed
with are still up there the core rope
memory that had all the all the software
that ran the The Landing computer for
the the lunar module it's still up there
if you could recover it you could run
the code again you know it's just
mindboggling and so I think that led me
a fascination with the Apollo program
and I've done a lot of talks about this
and Leadership Lessons From the Apollo
program and how that applies to other
things and it's taken me a while to
figure out that what's really
fascinating because I do deeply believe
that you know the future of our survival
and happiness as a species is our
ability to cooperate at scale on these
large scale projects and I'm a big
believer in studying in doing case
studies you know so instead of doing
theoretical ideas of what a design
process is it's like well let's just
look at an example that we you know
let's look at a product that we all
admire and then figure out how they made
it and use that as a case study for how
we might want to make our product and so
when I look at Apollo I just sort of try
to deconstruct it and use it as a case
study of how human beings accomplished a
you know what was arguably a peacetime
goal it was at least even if it was you
know Act of the Cold War at least it was
a nonviolent Act of the Cold War and to
get the country to commit that amount of
time that amount of money that amount of
risk you know for a solid programs
announced at at Rice University in 1961
I believe we land in 196 9 last mission
against 1972 like being able to sustain
this country's attention a decade for a
decade yeah yeah um yeah so I've got a
talk where I deconstruct the Kennedy
speech because it you know people talk
about a moonshot I'm like well there's
only been one moonshot and that's the
one that landed on the moon because the
moon shot's kind of got to go to the
Moon you know if you go and listen to
that Rice speech which I encourage
everybody to do it clocks in at 18
minutes it is the consumate Ted Talk it
is the Ted Talk of all time go and
listen to it look at how Kennedy sells
the vision of going to the moon and why
we're going to go to the moon and why it
matters and how much that changes
people's minds and how compelling it is
and then especially watch him after he
finishes the speech because it turns out
he's he's fairly short and when he goes
back to the to the seats he's surrounded
by these gigantic guys and he sits there
and he's kind of got this interesting
look on his face I don't think he was
really expecting that response and like
he really expected it to go that well I
don't know just looking at the video
kind of like wow he's seems pretty proud
of the moment and he seems to have some
sense of like what's happened it's just
I I find that speech just super
compelling both to watch the video and
to like read the The Narrative itself uh
again to deconstruct it so he's saying
we need a moonshot for enterprise
software I'm just kidding no I'm saying
yeah I'm just saying there's learnings
from the Apollo prog there's learnings
from how Walt sold Disneyland you know
Disneyland's a big massive project they
went you know they it within one
calendar or within one year they went
from getting the bank loans you know
based on a on a drawing that him and a
Disney animator did at his house over
the weekend a drawing of the park they
got a bank loan against that and they
open the park with Ronald Reagan as the
Master of Ceremonies on TV 12 months
later like in a year like how the hell
do you do that you know like you're
talking about an MVP and like time to
Market like they built Disneyland in a
year and they got Ronald Reagan and like
everybody imaginable to like come to the
opening it's phenomenal and and there's
just not that many examples of humans
pulling off large scale projects like
that when I think about software like
building enterprise software is a large
scale project how do you how do you
Galvanize and motivate a huge group of
people Apple's the only company I see
doing that in a reliable way at scale
like if you look I mentioned earlier the
Apple Vision Pro and people can look at
the product and they can deconstruct the
product I would suggest that you look at
the company that produced it and you ask
yourself what kind of culture produces a
product like that that they were working
on for I think eight years they were
able to stain sustain that Vision none
of it leaked none of it leaked before
the announcement yet probably hundreds
of people worked on that product and all
the different specializations and
Explorations all the things that had to
go into creating that product that
people are reporting as you know kind of
mindblowing and in some cases maybe
life-changing although it seems a little
hyperbolic but you whe whether you're a
believer in The Vision Pro or not
nobody's every everybody's saying it's
one of it's the most incredible consumer
electronics product ever conceived ever
and like what kind of culture pulls that
off like what's the mechanics of a
culture that makes that possible well
and there's a series of them right
because it it would be one thing if it
was you know just the iPhone but it's
also the watch it's also the iPad it's
also the Mac yeah the Mac I mean yeah
clearly Steve you know and Steve talked
about that the various points in his
life like the thing that he had created
that he was most proud of was Apple you
know and that's the culture to go study
like what's that what's the machine that
makes Apple function and that's apart
from the products and what they actually
produced it's like what is what is the
culture and that's that's how I look at
the Apollo program that's how I look at
Disney that's how I look at Pixar you
know there's there's only a handful of
companies that can operate at that way
but those are the those are the
companies I think we should be studying
from again from a case study point of
view instead of trying to deconstruct
some of these products you say what was
the culture and the processes and the
mindsets that ended up yielding these
products that we all admire so much the
fast with big projects has always made
sense to me I wanted to make sure other
people heard about it and I um it's such
an interesting combination of you know
history we were in a moment then and
what can we pull from that what sorts of
things can we think about um and you
know broadly applicable you you make
people you know if you if you want
people to cross an ocean you don't like
you know teach him to sail you teach him
to yearn for the sea right isn't I love
always love hearing about that yeah look
I think the trick with with history and
it's true with Apollo is you know with
all this stuff including Apollo is can
you get yourself into a mindset where
you can identify with the participants
when they didn't know the outcome you
know can you sit with James Madison uh
in Philadelphia when he showed up
earlier for early for the Constitutional
Convention and he decides to write a
draft of the Constitution James Madison
didn't know how it was going to turn out
at some point he sits down with paper
and he start start structuring a
constitution that had three branches of
government and all the rest of that
stuff can you can you get back to that
moment where it wasn't clear what was
going to happen can you get yourself
back to the moment where it wasn't clear
they were going to land on the moon you
know they had there was three missions
lined up in 1969 so Apollo 11 12 and 13
were all queued up to land by the end of
1969 because nobody thought they were
going to land Apollo 11 they they in
fact Neil Armstrong the night before the
quote he's at the press conference the
night before and he says we the crew of
Apollo 11 are privileged to represent
Mankind in this our first attempt to
land on the moon and so this this
concept of like their privilege to have
this to be part of this opportunity you
know to our first attempt like the
mindset was maybe this is going to work
and like he's almost out of gas like
he's got I think 11 seconds of fuel left
when he lands and there was a big
boulder where they were supposed to land
like there's there's a lot of stuff
uncertain stuff that happens in that
last 180 you know seconds talk about
those things though to your point it's
actually very difficult to be back in
that moment it's much you get much more
uh sort of accounts and Analysis of like
why it worked and what was anyway yeah
when you see the final score you forget
how tense the game was and I think you
have to go back and put aside the final
score and sort of say no this is what
the participants were dealing with it
wasn't clear and I think that's where my
why I study history and that's kind of
where my comfort comes from because then
you kind of realize oh well like I'm
feeling all that uncertainty in my daily
life too and that's just well that's how
it's always been you know that's what it
means to be in the now I don't know how
the election's going to turn out I don't
know what's going to happen with the
pandemic I don't know what's going to
happen with the weather I don't know
what's going to happen with my job with
the econom like like nobody ever knows
what's going to happen that's how it
always is right and uh if all you ever
think about is the final score you
forget that the game was very much in
doubt Bob thanks for being on fig Brew
always fascinating thank you Mr Hogan
lovely to see you as always thank you
and I can't wait to have you back love
to have you back that would be great
anytime I'm around
[Music]
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