FigBrew: Designing AI And Tools For People With Bob Baxley

FigBrew
2 Apr 202439:38

Summary

TLDRIn diesem faszinierenden Gespräch spricht Andrew Hogan, Head of Insights bei Figma, mit Bob Baxley, SVP of Design bei ThoughtSpot, der Erfahrungen von Apple, Pinterest und Yahoo mitbringt. Sie diskutieren die Zukunft von KI und wie sie unsere Arbeitswelt verändern wird. Baxley teilt seine Erfahrungen mit KI-Tools wie Chat GPT und wie er sie für Reiseplanung und für die Analyse von Inhalten auf LinkedIn nutzt. Sie reflektieren über die Herausforderungen und Chancen von KI, die nicht nur die Technologie sondern auch unser Verständnis von Intelligenz und dem menschlichen Geist hinterfragen. Baxley betont die Bedeutung, sich mit der Vergangenheit und großen Projekten wie dem Apollo-Programm auseinanderzusetzen, um von vergangenen Erfolgen zu lernen und für die Zukunft zu planen. Das Gespräch bietet tiefgründende Einblicke in die Auswirkungen von KI auf Design und die menschliche Erfahrung.

Takeaways

  • 🚀 **Innovation und AI**: Bob Baxley, SVP of Design bei ThoughtSpot, diskutiert über die Zukunft von KI und wie sie die Branche beeinflussen wird.
  • 🤖 **KI in der Praxis**: Baxley teilt seine Erfahrungen mit KI-Tools wie Chat GPT, Claude und anderen, die er für Reiseplanung und für das Erstellen von Website-Inhalten nutzt.
  • 🧐 **KI und das menschliche Verständnis**: Er reflektiert über die menschliche Natur und wie KI unsere Vorstellung von Intelligenz herausfordern könnte.
  • 🌟 **Philosophie hinter KI**: Baxley kehrt zu philosophischen Überlegungen zurück, um das Potenzial und die Auswirkungen von KI besser zu verstehen.
  • 🌐 **Technologie und Alltagsleben**: Er diskutiert, wie Technologie zur Alltagsroutine geworden ist und wie sie von Menschen, die nicht ständig mit Technologie arbeiten, wahrgenommen wird.
  • 🔍 **UX-Design und KI**: ThoughtSpot nutzt KI, um die Benutzeroberfläche zu verbessern und Datenanalysen für Laien zugänglicher zu machen.
  • 📈 **Geschäftsstrategie und KI**: ThoughtSpots Mission ist es, eine faktenbasiertere Welt zu schaffen, und KI hilft dabei, diese Vision zu erreichen, indem sie die Komplexität der Datenanalyse für Benutzer reduziert.
  • 🤔 **Persönliche Entwicklung**: Baxley betont die Bedeutung einer offenen Mentalität gegenüber Veränderungen und der Fähigkeit, sich nicht an die Vergangenheit zu klammern.
  • 👀 **Beobachtung der Benutzer**: Er empfiehlt, sich die Zeit nehmen zu观察 (beobachten), wie normale Menschen Software nutzen, um ein besseres Verständnis für die Bedürfnisse der Benutzer zu erhalten.
  • 🌱 **Kulturelle Bedeutung von Großprojekten**: Baxley ist von großen Projekten wie der Apollo-Mission oder der Gründung von Disneyland beeindruckt und sieht in ihnen wichtige Lehren für heutige Projekte.
  • 📚 **Lernen aus der Geschichte**:历史文化 (Historische Kultur) und Großprojekte bieten wertvolle Fälle, um Strategien und Mentalitäten zu studieren, die für erfolgreiche Zusammenarbeit und Projektmanagement relevant sind.

Q & A

  • Was ist das Hauptthema des Gesprächs?

    -Das Hauptthema des Gesprächs ist die Zukunft der künstlichen Intelligenz (KI) und wie sie die Arbeitswelt und das Leben der Menschen beeinflussen wird.

  • Welche Unternehmen hat Bob Baxley schon gearbeitet?

    -Bob Baxley hat bei Unternehmen wie Apple, Pinterest und Yahoo gearbeitet.

  • Was ist Fig Brew?

    -Fig Brew ist eine von Figma initiierte Plattform, die darauf abzielt, das Bewusstsein für die Entwicklungen in der Industrie zu erhöhen, und sie teilen diese Informationen mit der Community.

  • Was ist Bob Baxleys aktuelles Unternehmen?

    -Bob Baxley ist derzeit Senior Vice President of Design bei ThoughtSpot.

  • Was ist ThoughtSpot?

    -ThoughtSpot ist ein Business Intelligence-Tool, das Datenanalysen in Form von Diagrammen und Graphen für große Datenmengen ermöglicht.

  • Wie hat AI Bob Baxleys Arbeitsablauf verändert?

    -AI hat es Bob ermöglicht, Aufgaben wie Reiseplanung und das Identifizieren von Themen in Texten mithilfe von Chat GPT und anderen Technologien effizienter durchzuführen.

  • Was ist Bob Baxleys Meinung über die Verbreitung von AI-Technologien?

    -Bob Baxley ist der Meinung, dass KI-Technologien wie Chat GPT und Dolly die Welt der Technologienaffinen Menschen überwunden und sich in der breiteren Öffentlichkeit durchgesetzt haben.

  • Welche Rolle spielt die Philosophie in Bezug auf KI?

    -Die Philosophie spielt eine wichtige Rolle, da sie das Verständnis von künstlicher Intelligenz vertieft und Fragen nach der Natur der Intelligenz und ihrer Auswirkungen auf die menschliche Identität stellt.

  • Was ist Bob Baxleys Hintergrund?

    -Bob Baxley hat ein Hintergrund in Design und hat an der College-Historie und Filmstudie teilgenommen. Er ist auch an der Verbindung von Vergangenheit und Gegenwart in Bezug auf Design interessiert.

  • Wie sieht Bob Baxleys Vision für die Zukunft der Software-Nutzung aus?

    -Bob Baxley glaubt an eine Zukunft, in der Software besser für Menschen funktioniert und als Werkzeug zur Verbesserung des Lebens dient, anstatt sie zu disziplinieren oder zu behindern.

  • Was sind die Herausforderungen, die Designer bei der Integration von KI in ihre Produkte sehen?

    -Die Herausforderungen umfassen die Schaffung einer Benutzererfahrung, die einfach zu bedienen ist, die die Komplexität der Datenanalysen für Benutzer reduziert und gleichzeitig die Möglichkeit bietet, Daten ausgiebig zu erkunden und zu verstehen.

Outlines

00:00

🤖 AI的未来发展

Andrew Hogan与Bob Baxley讨论了AI的未来发展。Bob分享了他在ThoughtSpot的工作经验,以及他如何在个人项目中使用AI,例如利用Chat GPT分析LinkedIn帖子的主题,并将其与斯多葛哲学家的主题进行比较。Bob还讨论了AI在法律专业朋友中的应用,以及AI如何快速生成旅行计划。此外,他们还探讨了AI对经济和世界的影响,以及在硅谷的日常生活中对技术的关注。

05:01

🧠 AI与哲学的交汇

Bob和Andrew讨论了AI如何让他重新对哲学产生兴趣,特别是关于机器智能的哲学。他们讨论了神经网络自20世纪50年代以来的理论,以及我们现在拥有的硬件和软件系统如何使这些理论成为可能。Bob分享了他阅读的书籍,包括《God Human Animal Machine》和《Other Minds》,这些书籍探讨了智能的本质,包括人类、动物和机器的智能。他们还讨论了人们对机器智能的焦虑和恐惧,以及这如何影响人们对AI的看法。

10:03

📊 ThoughtSpot的AI集成

Bob解释了ThoughtSpot如何使用AI来简化数据分析,使其更易于非专业用户使用。ThoughtSpot的目标是让决策更加基于事实而非直觉。通过AI,用户可以用自然语言提问,而ThoughtSpot的系统会将这些问题转换为公司内部数据模型的语言,从而返回用户所需的图表和结果。Bob强调了AI在降低技术复杂性方面的作用,并将其比作翻译服务。

15:05

🚀 从历史中学习

Bob和Andrew讨论了历史在设计和AI发展中的重要性。Bob强调了从历史中学习的价值,以及如何通过研究过去的设计和技术创新来获得灵感。他们讨论了chronocentrism(时代中心主义)的概念,即人们倾向于认为所有重要的事情都发生在他们自己的一生中。Bob建议设计师应该超越这种思维方式,通过学习历史来连接更广泛的社区和知识体系。

20:05

🤔 AI对设计师工作的影响

Bob分享了他对AI可能取代人类工作的担忧,特别是对于设计师而言。他讨论了如何通过观察人们使用软件来保持与用户的联系,并强调了在设计过程中考虑用户的重要性。Bob还提到了企业软件对用户的影响,以及设计师如何通过改进企业软件来提高人们的生活质量。他强调了简化和最小主义在设计中的重要性,并指出许多企业软件产品缺乏这种考虑。

25:06

🌟 人类合作的大项目

Bob讨论了他对大型人类合作项目的兴趣,特别是阿波罗登月计划。他分享了对这些项目如何实现的好奇,以及从这些历史案例中学习的重要性。Bob提到了肯尼迪的登月演讲,并分析了其如何有效地传达愿景并激励人们。他还提到了其他大型项目,如迪士尼乐园的建设,并强调了研究这些项目背后的文化和流程的重要性。

30:09

🧐 面对不确定性

Bob和Andrew讨论了如何在不确定性中找到安慰,以及如何从历史中学习来应对当前的不确定性。他们讨论了将历史作为一种工具,帮助我们理解参与者在不知道结果时的思维方式。Bob强调了在不确定性中寻找学习和成长机会的重要性,并感谢Andrew参与讨论。

Mindmap

Keywords

💡Künstliche Intelligenz (AI)

Künstliche Intelligenz (AI) bezieht sich auf die Entwicklung von Computern oder Robotern, die lernen und Entscheidungen treffen können, ähnlich wie ein Mensch. Im Video wird AI als zentrales Thema diskutiert, das die Zukunft der Technologie und unseres Lebens beeinflussen wird. Ein Beispiel ist die Verwendung von AI für Reiseplanung, indem ein Programm einen Tagungsplan erstellt, basierend auf den Vorlieben eines Paares.

💡ThoughtSpot

ThoughtSpot ist ein Business-Intelligenz-Tool, das Datenanalysen für große Datenmengen ermöglicht. Im Video wird beschrieben, wie ThoughtSpot die Verwendung von AI in Kombination mit natürlicher Sprache verständlichen Anfragen ermöglicht, um schnell und effektiv Datenabfragen durchzuführen. Dies steht im Einklang mit ThoughtSpots Mission, Entscheidungen auf Fakten zu stützen und nicht nur auf Meinungen und Intuition.

💡Designphilosophie

Die Designphilosophie bezieht sich auf die grundlegenden Prinzipien und Überzeugungen, die ein Designer hat, wie er Software oder Produkte gestaltet. Im Video wird die Notwendigkeit einer Designphilosophie hervorgehoben, die darauf abzielt, Software für Menschen zugänglich und benutzerfreundlich zu gestalten, und wie diese durch die Verwendung von AI in ThoughtSpot umgesetzt wird.

💡Benutzererfahrung (UX)

Benutzererfahrung (UX) ist die Summe aller Interaktionen, die ein Benutzer mit einem Produkt oder einer Dienstleistung hat. Im Video wird die Bedeutung einer guten UX betont, um sicherzustellen, dass Menschen Datenanalysen ohne spezielle Schulung durchführen können, was der Mission von ThoughtSpot entspricht.

💡Enterprise-Software

Enterprise-Software ist Software, die für Unternehmen entwickelt wurde, um Geschäftsprozesse zu unterstützen. Im Video wird diskutiert, wie Enterprise-Software oft nicht sehr gut gestaltet ist und wie Designer einen positiven Einfluss darauf haben können, um die Lebensqualität der Benutzer zu verbessern.

💡Apollo-Programm

Das Apollo-Programm war ein US-Raumfahrtprogramm, das 1961 bis 1972 lief und die ersten Menschen auf dem Mond landen ließ. Im Video wird das Apollo-Programm als Beispiel für ein groß angelegtes Projekt diskutiert, das von der Menschheit erfolgreich abgeschlossen wurde und von dem wir lernen können, wie große Projekte erfolgreich umgesetzt werden können.

💡Konversationsal AI

Konversationsal AI ist eine Form der künstlichen Intelligenz, die es Benutzern ermöglicht, mit Technologie durch natürliche Sprache zu interagieren. Im Video wird beschrieben, wie ThoughtSpot Konversationsal AI verwendet, um die Komplexität von Datenabfragen zu reduzieren und es Benutzern ermöglicht, Daten in einer natürlichen Sprache anzufragen.

💡Data Analytics

Data Analytics ist der Prozess der Analyse von Daten, um Erkenntnisse und Informationen zu gewinnen. Im Video wird ThoughtSpot als Werkzeug für Data Analytics präsentiert, das es Benutzern ermöglicht, Daten aus großen Datasets zu analysieren und dadurch bessere Entscheidungen zu treffen.

💡Natürliche Sprache Verarbeitung (NLP)

Natürliche Sprache Verarbeitung (NLP) ist eine Technologie, die es Computern ermöglicht, menschliche Sprache zu verstehen und zu interpretieren. Im Video wird NLP als Schlüsseltechnologie für ThoughtSpot beschrieben, die es Benutzern ermöglicht, Datenabfragen in einer Art und Weise durchzuführen, die ihrer natürlichen Sprache entspricht.

💡KI-Integration

KI-Integration bezieht sich auf den Prozess, AI in bestehende Systeme oder Produkte einzubinden. Im Video wird die KI-Integration in ThoughtSpot als Beispiel dafür diskutiert, wie AI die Benutzererfahrung verbessern kann, indem sie die Komplexität der Datenanalyse reduziert.

💡Kultur eines Unternehmens

Die Kultur eines Unternehmens umfasst die Werte, Überzeugungen, Verhaltensweisen und Praktiken, die innerhalb des Unternehmens vorherrschen. Im Video wird betont, wie die Unternehmenskultur von Apple und anderen erfolgreichen Unternehmen beachtet werden sollte, um zu verstehen, wie diese Unternehmen ihre beeindruckenden Produkte entwickeln konnten.

Highlights

Bob Baxley, SV of design at ThoughtSpot, discusses the future of AI and its impact on the industry.

Baxley's experience from Apple, Pinterest, and Yahoo provides a unique perspective on AI's role in tech advancements.

The discussion covers AI's ability to identify themes in data, as demonstrated by Baxley's use of chat GPT on his travel planning tweets.

AI's potential to transform user experiences, as seen in the comparison of AI-generated travel itineraries to human-made ones.

Baxley's personal use of AI tools like chat GPT and Claude for various tasks, including building a website and content creation.

The philosophical implications of AI and machine intelligence, drawing parallels to human and animal intelligence.

ThoughtSpot's mission to create a more fact-driven world through data analytics and business intelligence tools.

How ThoughtSpot uses AI to simplify complex data queries, making it accessible to non-technical business users.

Baxley's emphasis on the importance of designers understanding the end-users and the human element of software interaction.

The challenge of enterprise software usability and the opportunity for designers to improve user experiences.

Baxley's belief in the significance of studying historical large-scale projects, like the Apollo missions, for insights into successful collaboration and innovation.

The cultural and process-oriented lessons that can be learned from successful companies like Apple and their approach to product development.

The importance of minimalism in product design and the challenge of saying no to additional features for the sake of usability.

Baxley's perspective on the future of work in the context of AI and the need for professionals to adapt their skills and mindset.

The concept of 'baseline thinking' and its role in helping individuals manage change and avoid attachment to outdated methods.

Practical advice for designers on observing how everyday people use software to gain insights and improve the user experience.

Baxley's call to action for designers to focus on the human impact of their work and to create software that serves the user, not the other way around.

Transcripts

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[Music]

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what's AI going to do next I talked to

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Bob Baxley SV of design at thoughts spot

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with experience from Apple Pinterest and

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Yahoo about that very question my name

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is Andrew Hogan head of insights at

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figma and this is big Brew big Brew is

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something that we were doing inside of

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figma to raise our level of awareness

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about what's happening in the industry

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and we thought we should share it all

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with you hope you

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enjoy Bob welcome to Fig Brew Andrew

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thanks for having me excited to be here

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amazing to talk with you uh I know

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you've been at Apple Pinterest Yahoo

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you're now at thoughts spot but to be

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honest the only thing people care about

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is AI so I want you to tell me what's

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the last thing you did with AI really I

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thought all they cared about this

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weekend was the Apple Vision Pro but

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yeah so we're still talking AI now

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they're going to have ai ai look guys

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I'm I'm playing around with chat GPT and

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and Claude and other stuff as well

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playing around with mid Journey uh and

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Dolly I personally I've uh I've used it

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a little bit for travel planning I have

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uh a lot of different U little things

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that I post on LinkedIn and I'm trying

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to build a website around those so I

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have like 600 of these different little

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basically tweets and one of the one of

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the interesting things I did is I gave

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that list of 400 of these tweets to chat

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GPT and I said can you tell me the 13

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themes that are captured in these things

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and of course it did did that in like I

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don't know 10 seconds which is

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absolutely mindboggling and then I'm

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it's sort of self-help type content so

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then I was like can you take that list

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of 13 themes and compare it to the 13

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themes of the stoic philosophers and

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then it could do that and then okay now

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slice it against montain and it could do

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that and then my head kind of explodes

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because you start to realize what the

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heck is actually going on uh and one one

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of the things I tell people about the AI

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is my my wife used to be an attorney and

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we have dinner parties or over attorney

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friends and they're sort of naturally

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skeptical people that's what makes them

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attorneys and I'll start talking about

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Ai and they kind of bring that

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skepticism and I'll try out my phone

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I'll go well let's just try question and

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they'll say something like you know

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let's imagine we're doing travel

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planning I'm like okay two we vacation

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in France 60 year-old couple interested

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in music movies and food or something

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you know and then it like kicks out a

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day day by day almost hour by hour

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itinerary in like I don't know 20

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seconds and then somebody at the table

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go yeah but that's not exactly the thing

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I would do I don't think I would do that

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on day to to which I have to go could we

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just stop here for a minute and think

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about what's happened here it is

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absolutely mindboggling because you

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could have put in anything and this

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system's going to respond to you Bob you

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said the phrase you know eating Tech

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like what what does that mean and how

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how do you think that changes people's

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perception of these things I I mean it's

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just what part of the economy and the

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happening in the world you're paying

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attention to right and like people like

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you and me and a lot of my neighbors

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here in Silicon Valley like we just

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think Tech all the time it's the

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centerpiece of our life like we live for

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it we're not just looking at computers

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to find the content we're looking at

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computers cuz we're thinking about

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Computing all the time we're noticing

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all these things in the landscape I

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talked to Young designers about this all

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the time are are you paying attention to

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the point of s system at the gas station

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are you are you deconstructing the

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conceptual model of what it means to buy

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gasoline at the pump when you're looking

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at self checkout and it's treating you

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like a criminal are you noticing that

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the fragmentation between all the

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different vendors that came to play to

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make that thing work like isn't it clear

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to you that the point of sale piece

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where they're taking your credit card is

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completely bolted on to this other

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system and that there's like friction in

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that fragmentation and that's resulting

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in like a really poor user experience I

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mean I could go on and on there's like

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software in every corner of your life uh

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and most most you know mere mortals as I

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call them like normal people who don't

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eat Tech all the time you know they're

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just moving through life and kind of

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being forced to use all that stuff and

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they're not really it's just become sort

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of the ambient of Modern Life and those

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of us in the industry I think you kind

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of look at it in a different way the

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data would say that like you know chat

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GPT and Dolly like the mid Journey all

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of those things have actually broken out

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of the world of people who eat Tech I

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can't believe I repeating that and we

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were going to maybe make an but but but

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you know like they've broken out of that

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world and it's surprising to the extent

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that that's happened I think yeah luk I

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think there's there's we're moving out

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of like the just the pure early adopter

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stuff um and I haven't seen the usage

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figures for those things I mean clearly

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these systems are going to be transform

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transformative I still just don't think

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the common person on the street has a

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good conceptual model of what they could

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use this thing for and so right now

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there is a lot of party tricks you know

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and we could all name the same things

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you know travel planning and I guess

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asking questions about the Romans or

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something you know I've never done that

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one summarizing you know summarizing

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papers or you know whatever like there's

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a handful of use cases that people kind

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of understand it's a difficult

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conceptual model it's very very

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different from how we've thought about

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Computing in the past like radically

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different it's a completely different

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approach to Computing it's a me I was

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going to say you know one of the things

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that's I found most interesting about

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the stuff with AI over the last year is

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it's gotten me plugged back into the

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philosophy around AI because the kinds

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of systems we have now the neural

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network stuff has been theorized since

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the 1950s we just haven't had the

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computing power and the storage to be

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able to pull it off so you know what we

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what you have with chat GPT is not not

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really so much understanding it's not

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really so much a breakthrough from a

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computer science point of view it's a

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breakthrough in that we finally have the

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hardware and the software systems to

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pull it off and so there's like 50 years

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of people writing about what is what is

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machine intelligence going to mean and

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it's uh it's got me reading some really

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interesting books but around this time

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last year I read a book called God human

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animal machine which is kind of about

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the nature of intelligence and you know

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we used to just think it was only God

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that was intelligent and then that kind

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of spanned to humans are intelligent now

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we think about animal intelligence and

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now we're wrestling with the question of

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machine intelligence and and what does

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that mean that was a very fascinating

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kind of philosophical book and then I

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followed that with another one called

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other Minds which is about um octopuses

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and and Squids and seapods and kind of

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their their kind of intelligence and the

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the theory of that book is if you go

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back to if you go back 500 million years

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ago humans in octopuses shared this

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common ancestor called this flat worm

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where the flat worm's clearly not

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intelligent fast forward 500 million

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years you got human beings like to think

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we're intelligent you got octopus is

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clearly intelligent Nature has has

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created intelligence two at least two

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times and radically different ways what

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does that really mean like how do we

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think about human intelligence you know

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I think that's to me that's like the

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really fascinating philosophical

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question that we're facing now when

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you're looking at Ai and what it can do

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and it's I think that I think that that

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that tension underg guards a lot of

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people's initial sense of skepticism and

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I think there's just kind of an anxiety

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and fear about like what mean like the

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idea that a machine could be intelligent

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and that it could give answers in the

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way that a human would it could create

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answers that kind of thing I mean it

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could replace me it could do a lot of

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the things that I do and and when you go

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back and you look at like the anxiety uh

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around deep blue when it when when it

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beat Gary Casper off at at chess like

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that was a very pivotal moment you go

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watch the alpha go documentary on

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YouTube about when Alpha go want it

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wanted the game against go and like the

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the guy that was playing His Name

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Escapes Me The Dan from I think he was

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from in Japan he was rushed like like he

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left at one point he like goes he like

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leaves the the the the place the where

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the game was taking place leaves the

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room and goes outside and and he is like

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stressed so there's a completely new

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method of computing and thinking and

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interacting your response to that as a

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person who eats Tech is to go read about

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philosophy and sort of go back to

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history and then sort of you have this

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this belief that like it's going to do a

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lot of the things that you do today like

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how do you feel about that I don't know

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man I'm feeling it out you know I'm

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trying not to be anxious and freaked out

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about it but you know change is change

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is coming and a lot of the things that

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I've thought were important for me to be

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able to do and I could uniquely do in my

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job I don't know if that's actually

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going to end up being the case or not

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yeah there's an interesting challenge

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like I think it makes you confront what

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does it mean to be human and uh what is

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my value as a human outside my ability

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to be able to execute you know certains

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of these tasks asks um and I think

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that's a that's a real meaty

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psychological and liberal arts problem

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to deal with yeah which is part of why

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you know I assume you're going back to

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the history and you you know mentioned

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the stoics earlier and you know that

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that yeah I'm always drawn to that sort

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of stuff I mean you know part of it's

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it's just how I'm tuned I studied

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history in college along with film and

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I've just sort of always been tuned to

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like what if what's happened in the past

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those are amazing Stories and how did

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people learn from them you see some of

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the Apollo stuff kind of over there in

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the back background personally I find

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connecting to the past to be very

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rewarding and grounding and I think it's

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one of the challenges when I talk to

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younger designers I think it's one of

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the things that I try to council them on

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is a lot of lot of folks today don't

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realize that there's like you know

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history design goes back at least a

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century and if not more and many of the

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problems that we're dealing with today

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about how to explain the value of design

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how to think about design the design

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process the psychology the designer

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mindset all those things people have

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been writing and thinking about that

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stuff for decades and decades like we're

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not the first folks to figure this out

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and why we like to think that we're

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unique and it's this unique historical

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moment that's um that's this concept

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called Chrono centricity and Chronos

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centricity is the belief that everything

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interesting happened in your own

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lifetime I think the problem with that

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is it ends up being super isolating

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because you end up feeling like you have

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to uniquely figure out these problems

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and there's nobody to learn from and no

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Community to connect to whereas you know

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by connecting to historical graphic

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designers or the Arts and Crafts

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movement or going back to some of the

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early Tech Pioneers like vver Bush or

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Doug engelbart or Stuart brand you

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realize oh I'm I'm actually part of this

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community of this you know human

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exploration that expands out over time

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and uh at least in my case you know it

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keeps me from feeling so isolated and

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alone when I'm confronting some of the

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challenges of being a designer in the

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modern world excellent advice you gave

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some names maybe we'll give people a few

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links that they can follow um or some

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some other um but it is it's it's

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striking when I talk to you how much uh

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history comes up how much like patterns

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that have repeated themselves come up um

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and I have to imagine you're drawing on

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that you know with the work today

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because you also mentioned these devices

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this technology um could replace some of

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the things you do today but you are

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actively also designing things that are

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helpful in augmenting people's work and

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so you've been thinking about how to

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apply it and how to think about it in

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the context of uh data engineer the AI I

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um engineer the sort of the folks using

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thoughtspot yeah so thought spot's a

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business intelligence tool right so we

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do data analytics basically charts and

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graphs for big gigantic data sets uh we

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compete with the likes of Tableau

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powerbi and many many other uh companies

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the vision of thoughts spot that the

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founders set forth when they founded the

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company was a more fact-driven world

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right so we wanted that the change they

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wanted to see in the world was a world

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where decisions were based more on fact

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than just opinions and intuition and so

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from that you get the mission of trying

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to get the thoughts spot product into

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the hands of millions of users and from

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that then we get a ux strategy that we

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refer to is encourage exploration and

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reward curiosity and then that leads to

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a handful of tenants of how we think

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about the design of the product now

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what's unique about our product is we're

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trying to get data analytics into the

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hands of business users the challenge

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for that is that in order to use our

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tool or any others like most of our

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competitors tblo and powerbi again

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examples you would have to go get

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specialized training those are

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professional tools you know they're sort

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of the bi equivalent of Photoshop like

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you're not just going to get in those

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tools and figure stuff out like you're

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going to have to get some training but

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the goal of thought spot is to just put

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data analytics into the hands of normal

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folks which means we need to have a tool

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that you can just sit down at and make

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sense of you know which is why I went

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there because that's ultimately a very

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big and interesting ux design challenge

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that I think we've done a really great

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job of we're broadly recognized as

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having the best UI in the in the space

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and people buy the product because of

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the design and because of the usability

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but there's still a fundamental

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challenge which is for a business user

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to sit and use our tool they have to

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understand or they historically they've

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had to understand their company's

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underlying data model they had to know

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what particular columns were called Etc

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now we have a simplified version of of

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SQL that allows them to be able to

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create uh much less uh structured

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queries than they would have to do in a

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in a traditional language like SQL but

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they still kind of had to have the

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vocabulary of the data model what we've

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been able to do with AI over the last

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year is we've been able to use chat GPT

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to go between how somebody might ask a

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natural language question and then map

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that into the company's data model so

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somebody can say What Would by sales in

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North America and physical you know 2022

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uh by region and there's actually a

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whole bunch of different column names in

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there that could that there's different

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ways companies refer to to sales

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different ways to refer to region Etc

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and in the past you would have had to

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know exactly what those column names

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were with our AI integration you can ask

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that a very natural way and we can go

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off and interpolate that so we we're

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using AI almost like a trans translation

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service where somebody can ask something

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in English and we're able to convert

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that over into their kind of internal

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data model language to then bring back

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the chart and the results that they're

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looking for and really aligned with the

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the mission of you know curiosity and

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exploration and it's very punishing when

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you write code that doesn't work and so

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getting something back is better than

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getting nothing back for sure yeah so so

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if you go back to again our our strategy

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of encourage exploration and reward

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curiosity like one of the one of our 10

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is nobody wants to learn the product

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know and and that means nobody wants to

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ever be stuck and have to read a manual

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it also means they don't want to hit an

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error right and in in in coding

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environments and you know most of our

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competitors again there's just lots of

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ways that you can dig yourself into a

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hole and not know what to do next and

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our goal is to create a feeling where

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you can just stay and explore the data

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you know hopefully you kind of find fall

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down a rabbit hole you know our our our

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conceptually I'd love to see our product

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kind of be like the Wikipedia of your

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data model and in my you know I imagine

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users sitting there kind of Surfing the

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data of their company in probably kind

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of an undirected just humanly curious

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way I just want to wander the data and

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see what I can find you know that

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requires a lot of sophisticated

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technology because these data models are

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hard to navigate and complicated and

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technically specific so just be able to

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click on things and have it constantly

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bringing you back results and results

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that are valid and accurate and

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everything else and that you can

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understand like I mean in many ways

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that's been tech for 50 years right like

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moving from Main frames to personal

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computers to from command lines to goys

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to you're essentially following a very

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similar kind of path and you've put an

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AI translation layer as sort of the next

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stage the next part of the evolution

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there yeah you know I sort of uh I have

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this thing where I say you know every

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problem has you know it's its fixed

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units of complexity and the question is

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is it going to be the system that's

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going to suck up the complexity or the

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humans and most companies are trying to

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find where they want to be on that scale

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you know in companies like apple they

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they put a lot more emphasis in the

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system the system being the thing that's

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going to take care of the complexity and

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much less complexity for the users and

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we're trying to move that needle in our

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very technical space as well you know

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and then look that's our strategy and I

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think it's the right strategy it's a

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great strategy there is another strategy

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that says no no no like you know you

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have to know your stuff like it's we're

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going to give you technical powers and

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there's going to be like a really robust

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set of things you can do but you're

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going to have to learn how to operate

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the system and that's yeah it's also a

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valid approach again just not the one

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that's consistent with our business

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model and how we think about the space I

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sort of you know the comparison I use is

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like Photoshop to canva you know there's

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space for both not everybody that needs

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to produce assets wants to learn

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everything you have to learn to be able

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to use these other projects some people

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just want simpler stuff well and it also

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I know it's personally pretty aligned

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with your your philosophy too of uh your

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personal philosophy of you know making

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things simpler for the user and making

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things more approachable and I just see

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I see a lot of align here it feel like

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you you've helped shape that yeah look

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whenever I get a chance to to talk to

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other folks or to have a moment on stage

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one of the things I try to do is take

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the audience which is generally

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designers back to like why we do what we

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do you know and being a designer is it's

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a tough thing you know I think people

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get into it pretty optimistic and maybe

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a little naive about what it's going to

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be like but the stakes are really high

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in software there's a lot of money to be

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made there's a lot of attention to be

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guarded from different companies and so

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the stakes are high that means it's a

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difficult field where a create a

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professional to survive in but I try to

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remind people that there actually are

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folks on the other side of the glass and

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it's weird cuz in software we don't see

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the people on the other side of the

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glass it's a unattributed medium they

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don't see us they don't know who we are

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um and we never get to see them been

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fortunate to work on products that have

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been used by over a billion people I've

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never seen anyone use anything I've

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designed in the wild in real time just

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happening right like which never never

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never I've never stumbled in somebody

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using the apple on onl store oh stum

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okay so so but you I mean you've watched

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people yeah I've watched people but it's

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always organized right I mean so organic

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organically you've never okay that makes

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sense yeah so like my audience is

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relatively unknown to me and hard to get

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to and there's no other medium like this

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I mean a film director even though

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they're abstracted from Their audience

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they can always go to the movie theater

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and watch people watching the movie and

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they can always watch people watching

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another movie A musicians get to perform

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in front of an audience so they get to

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build that rapport with the audience

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artists can go to their opening they get

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to build a report With Their audience

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but designers like we don't have any

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rapport with our audience you know even

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though our audience is massive and so

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one of the again one of the things I try

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to always remind designers is you got to

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think about the folks on the other side

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of the glass because that's why we're

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all drawn to do this thing my sense is

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that uh when I when I use computers and

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they work right um it is just absolutely

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magic to me you heard my enthusiasm

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earlier about using chat PT it is

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mind-bogglingly cool to me in a really

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fundamental way it's like looking up at

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the stars or something you know there's

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something profoundly unknowable about

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what happens inside this little metal

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box on my desk that's making this moment

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possible it's absolutely mindboggling

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what's actually happening with us right

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now from a technical point of view um

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and a personal point of view but you

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know it's um mostly technical but a lot

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of times it goes wrong right and and we

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all have to use crappy software that we

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don't like like self checkout right that

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treats you like a criminal which it's

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always a but then sometimes you get the

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one that's really well done yeah and and

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then it's magic it's magical yeah and so

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I go you know I look around the built

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environments you know and I think about

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the built virtual environment and I

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think a lot of mere mortals people that

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don't eat Tech you know spend a lot of

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time probably feeling kind of victimized

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by it like it doesn't quite work they

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don't really know who to blame there's

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like these faceless bureaucracies that

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we call Facebook and Google and Amazon

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and apple that are pushing all this

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stuff on them and that change stuff

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behind their back and you you know

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that's not even counting for all the

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Enterprise tools they have to use and I

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just suspect a lot of them feel awfully

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frustrated and again kind of victimized

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honestly it kind of breaks my heart

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because I think using computers and

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using software is one of the Miracles of

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Modern Life right up there with jet

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travel you know and fresh sushi or

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something you know and so so when it

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doesn't go right I just I I don't know

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it just it it really troubles me kind of

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at a deep moral level uh because I feel

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that whoever created that system just

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couldn't find it themselves to spend the

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extra time to care about the people on

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the other side of the glass of which

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there are millions describe this sort of

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like you know going back in history to

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sort of think about this moment um and

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to think about uh the impact that AI

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might have and how you should deal with

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it you've talked about using um thought

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spot as a way to sort of like you know

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help other people work more successfully

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and you kind of like I know this is part

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of your your core like Mission how you

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want things you want the world to sort

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of be designed better you want software

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to work better for people and I you want

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people to be able to do that work

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successfully but you also just described

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you were a little worried about the

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impact that AI might have on the work

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that you do and the skills that you need

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I imagine lots of other people would

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also be worried about that and thinking

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about you're designing a certain way

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today you're designing AI features today

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in a certain way um how might it work in

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the future and then like what skills uh

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would you tell people to have so they

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could sort of keep with this same

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mission of how do I you know make

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software work better for people what do

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you what do you think they should be

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sort of like trying to learn or do

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obviously we live in an era of profound

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change you know and I think we will see

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more change in our lifetime than any

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generation in history um although we may

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not recognize it as much because we're

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so used to the change humans aren't

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really no animals really well set up for

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the amount of change that we're dealing

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with right now so what I think about the

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things you need to learn it's a lot of

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it's probably around just your mindset

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you know like how are you how are you

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managing the change are you getting

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attached to certain things that are

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going to be shifted out from underneath

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you you know I I focus a lot personally

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uh on what I call Baseline thinking

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which is to make my judgments today

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based on how the situation used to be in

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the past um and you see people do that

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you know where they drive around around

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their Hometown and they kind of go oh I

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remember when that was a field right and

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they kind of get nostalgic and a little

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bit down that that used to be a field

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and now it's a parking lot or something

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and I think that's a sign of somebody

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that's not really keeping up um and if

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you can't keep up and just kind of go

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with the flow of what's happening around

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you you're going to get really

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frustrated and unhappy really quickly

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and so I think as a mindset skill just

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being comfortable with change and not

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getting too attached and not believing

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that you know what's going to happen I

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think those are all just again kind of

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really important mindset skills that I

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focus on quite a bit through journaling

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and other practices so I think that's

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kind of on the maybe the soft skill side

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more on the hard skill side I mean I

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don't know if I have any great advice

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there watching normal people use

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software I think is incredibly valuable

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and something I don't see many folks

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doing anymore I was never a huge fan of

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traditional usability testing because I

play22:55

often found it to be wildly inconclusive

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and have some other challeng but there

play22:59

was something profound about watching

play23:01

mere mortals actually use software and

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with a lot of things now moving to

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metrics based decisionmaking instead of

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like watching real users I think we've

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lost something important like we've

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gotten again kind of really abstracted

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and removed from our audience and

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whatever they do on server logs does not

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tell you what's happening at the human

play23:18

level and so I I wish there was a way

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where designers could get more connected

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to to just watching how people use

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software and in my own life much you

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know kind of much to my annoyance when

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we're you know when we're at a dinner

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party I often ask the other people

play23:32

around me if I could look at their phone

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cuz I'm just trying to figure out like

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which apps they use and if there's

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something I don't recognize I'll ask

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them about that you know when my kids

play23:40

were in high school and they'd have a

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friend over I would actually proactively

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try to watch their friends using

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Snapchat and other things because I just

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wanted to understand how people are

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navigating that stuff when we travel at

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Disneyland I talk to the employees all

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the time about what the back of house

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systems look like you know and how they

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know when to punch in and punch out and

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what shift they're on when you're at the

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airport you know if the next time you go

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to the airport if you if you go up to

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the the ticket counter and you ask to

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change seats they're going to type for

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like five minutes you know try to I mean

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you know just stop and ask them like

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what are you doing you know like because

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you because they're on this like really

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dos-based kind of system how you ask

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them what are you doing maybe a little

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yeah no but you can ask them you can

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just be curious you know you can look

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over I mean every time I'm in a

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restaurant I ask the the the the service

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staff what they think of toast or Clover

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whatever they're using you know I kind

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of lean over the system that's the

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really I feel like there is something

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too like we have now been more exposed

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to the the things that they were using

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on the other side with self-checkout and

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you know with you get this little

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Glimpse and it it is it is alarming

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because that is the easier to use

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version than what than what they get um

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and we've all experienced you click one

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button to change seats on an airline

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website or in an app yeah they do not

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click one button there's clearly more

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happening over there no no well I asked

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them one time what was going on and they

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what they told me is that they were

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chatting with other agents on the line

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where they were trying to move multiple

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passengers to request to accommodate

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your request and so there's people that

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they had been Auto assigned into seats

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and they were trying to figure out if

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they could move them to accommodate what

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your request was since You' made a

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request and so it wasn't like what was

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actually happening with all those

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keystrokes is not what you thought was

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happening to your point like one of the

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reasons that I enjoy working at

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Enterprise software is because to me

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that's a place where you can have kind

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of the greatest impact on the quality of

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somebody's life because the people that

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use Enterprise software the users are

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rarely the customers typically somebody

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using enterprise software including our

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own you know that's dictated from the

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CIO or somebody somebody else made that

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purchasing decision and this tool just

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arrives and they have to use it those

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tools often aren't very thoughtfully

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designed like the quality of the UI is

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not often part of the the purchase

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consideration and I think those people

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just feel end up feeling really

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victimized you know and they get bummed

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with their employer like why did you

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give us these crappy tools and this

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thing's not working and so I think

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enterprise software is an interesting

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place for designers to put their energy

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cuz for what it's like super easy to

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move the needle um and you can have a

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tremendous impact on the quality

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people's lives cuz if there's a little

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bit of friction in Enterprise software

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product and you can get rid of it you've

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taken that friction out of somebody's

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life a dozen times a day cuz they're in

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those systems over and over and over

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again and they don't have the freedom to

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switch to something else so I it's an

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easy do you think it's getting better

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you and I have talked about this for the

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past couple years and I actually I'm

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curious like do you do you have a that

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it's improving I don't know if it's

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improving and then probably more

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importantly I don't know if I am

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metaphysically capable of being a good

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judge of that you know like I think my

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designer mindset is always trying to

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like every cell in my body is constantly

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asking how can this be better so it's

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not like I have some perspective that

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it's gotten better I'm just constantly

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trying to figure out how to make it

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better so I'm not a good judge in that

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way I suppose a different response I

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might have is it yeah I think software's

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maybe become a little bit easier to use

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but we've also added more and more

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capability so I think we've sort of

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undermined any progress we've made in

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usability by just stuffing more and more

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features into these products features

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are that's an easy thing for people to

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build that seems like the obvious thing

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to build it seems like oh I should just

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can't of do this and do this and do this

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and do this and there's there's very few

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companies that are willing to say no no

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it's going to do this set of things but

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it's going to do them really well and

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that's going to be incredibly valuable

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minimalism is not something that's

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appreciated in in tech for whatever

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reason like it's not consumers buy for

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either you know it's like I mean I was

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going to say the Enterprise in the

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Enterprise World especially you know

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you're up against a feature checklist we

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have all these things and they don't

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have these things and then that

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incentivizes it and we haven't even

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gotten to the number of products that

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companies use which I think has probably

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only increased over the last couple

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years oh yeah so it's possible that you

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know individual workflows for some

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things have improved greatly and then on

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the whole it's tough to tell yeah I

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remember when I onboarded and thought

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spot uh just the number I I I you the

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number of pieces of software that I was

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just assumed to know and to have to make

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sense of and to use just right out the

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gate and I you know I did know most of

play28:11

them but there was like two dozen

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different pieces of software that you're

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just to be a modern knowledge worker

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that you're just expected to know right

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off the bat that's an incredible tax you

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know but those things also make other

play28:23

people's lives better usually like

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there's there's probably some you know

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some piece ofof software that's really

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helpful for the accounting department

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one piece of software that's really

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helpful for someone different in the

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accounting department and then there's

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you know a procurement thing and then

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there's a uh HR software and then

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there's and so I you know it is it is a

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tricky balance of like how do you think

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about all these different workflows and

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the different pieces of software try to

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stitch it together in some like you know

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easy way yeah absolutely see where you

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could move the needle but I also see how

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it's pretty tough

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what you just described as a reason I'm

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still doing software design you know 33

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years on and I have to admit you know I

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often feel that I'm kind of it's rightly

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it's kind of a losing battle at times

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but you know it's a battle worth having

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because we shouldn't be victimized by

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our tools like these tools are here to

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serve us maybe we don't know how to make

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sense of AI or but the idea that it's

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threatening to us tells me something

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that's kind of gone ay all these tools

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should be making our lives as humans

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better and not that many of them are

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it's a that's a real loss to humanity

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it's a it's a yeah I don't know it's

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it's I hate to kind of put it in these

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moral terms but you know well but you

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you see an opportunity and I think that

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is the that's one of the one of the

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other things I wanted to ask you about

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is you have this you have this interest

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in big projects that humans countries

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you know

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peoples uh have tackled throughout

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history um and what you just described

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as a you know it's a big project how are

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we going to you know make this soft

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software make sure the software is

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working for us how we all going to work

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together to do that tell me about this

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big project I don't know what to call it

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like it's not quite an obsession um and

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you know oh why why I've drawn to Big

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projects yeah and what are the big

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projects that you think about yeah so I

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think the first one was the Apollo

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missions the Apollo moon landings you

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know and uh I was born in 1963 oddly I

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should have been more interested in it

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when they landed in 1969 but it's just

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not kind of the the MEO of the family I

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grew up in so I kind of remember

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watching it but not really but I got

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into it in my 20s when I think there was

play30:32

there was one night I just looked up at

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the full moon and I think it just hit me

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we'd gone to the moon like six people

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walked on the surface of the Moon they

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camped out you know I'm sorry 12 people

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had walked on the surface of the Moon we

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had we had six different campouts you

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know on the surface of the Moon and when

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you look at it in the night sky and you

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really conceptualize that it's just

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absolutely mindboggling like the

play30:54

audacity of it and that we did it like

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six times between July 1969 and I think

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it was January 1972 like it's 50 years

play31:04

ago you know it's over 50 years ago that

play31:06

jeene cernon and Harrison Schmidt left

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left the surface of the Moon for Apollo

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7 or you know exited the moon on Apollo

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17 and their Footprints are still up

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there the computers that they landed

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with are still up there the core rope

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memory that had all the all the software

play31:17

that ran the The Landing computer for

play31:19

the the lunar module it's still up there

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if you could recover it you could run

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the code again you know it's just

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mindboggling and so I think that led me

play31:28

a fascination with the Apollo program

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and I've done a lot of talks about this

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and Leadership Lessons From the Apollo

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program and how that applies to other

play31:34

things and it's taken me a while to

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figure out that what's really

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fascinating because I do deeply believe

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that you know the future of our survival

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and happiness as a species is our

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ability to cooperate at scale on these

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large scale projects and I'm a big

play31:46

believer in studying in doing case

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studies you know so instead of doing

play31:51

theoretical ideas of what a design

play31:53

process is it's like well let's just

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look at an example that we you know

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let's look at a product that we all

play31:57

admire and then figure out how they made

play31:58

it and use that as a case study for how

play32:00

we might want to make our product and so

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when I look at Apollo I just sort of try

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to deconstruct it and use it as a case

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study of how human beings accomplished a

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you know what was arguably a peacetime

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goal it was at least even if it was you

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know Act of the Cold War at least it was

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a nonviolent Act of the Cold War and to

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get the country to commit that amount of

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time that amount of money that amount of

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risk you know for a solid programs

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announced at at Rice University in 1961

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I believe we land in 196 9 last mission

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against 1972 like being able to sustain

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this country's attention a decade for a

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decade yeah yeah um yeah so I've got a

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talk where I deconstruct the Kennedy

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speech because it you know people talk

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about a moonshot I'm like well there's

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only been one moonshot and that's the

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one that landed on the moon because the

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moon shot's kind of got to go to the

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Moon you know if you go and listen to

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that Rice speech which I encourage

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everybody to do it clocks in at 18

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minutes it is the consumate Ted Talk it

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is the Ted Talk of all time go and

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listen to it look at how Kennedy sells

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the vision of going to the moon and why

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we're going to go to the moon and why it

play33:02

matters and how much that changes

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people's minds and how compelling it is

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and then especially watch him after he

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finishes the speech because it turns out

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he's he's fairly short and when he goes

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back to the to the seats he's surrounded

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by these gigantic guys and he sits there

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and he's kind of got this interesting

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look on his face I don't think he was

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really expecting that response and like

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he really expected it to go that well I

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don't know just looking at the video

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kind of like wow he's seems pretty proud

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of the moment and he seems to have some

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sense of like what's happened it's just

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I I find that speech just super

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compelling both to watch the video and

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to like read the The Narrative itself uh

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again to deconstruct it so he's saying

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we need a moonshot for enterprise

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software I'm just kidding no I'm saying

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yeah I'm just saying there's learnings

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from the Apollo prog there's learnings

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from how Walt sold Disneyland you know

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Disneyland's a big massive project they

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went you know they it within one

play33:56

calendar or within one year they went

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from getting the bank loans you know

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based on a on a drawing that him and a

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Disney animator did at his house over

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the weekend a drawing of the park they

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got a bank loan against that and they

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open the park with Ronald Reagan as the

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Master of Ceremonies on TV 12 months

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later like in a year like how the hell

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do you do that you know like you're

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talking about an MVP and like time to

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Market like they built Disneyland in a

play34:21

year and they got Ronald Reagan and like

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everybody imaginable to like come to the

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opening it's phenomenal and and there's

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just not that many examples of humans

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pulling off large scale projects like

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that when I think about software like

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building enterprise software is a large

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scale project how do you how do you

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Galvanize and motivate a huge group of

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people Apple's the only company I see

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doing that in a reliable way at scale

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like if you look I mentioned earlier the

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Apple Vision Pro and people can look at

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the product and they can deconstruct the

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product I would suggest that you look at

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the company that produced it and you ask

play34:54

yourself what kind of culture produces a

play34:56

product like that that they were working

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on for I think eight years they were

play35:00

able to stain sustain that Vision none

play35:03

of it leaked none of it leaked before

play35:05

the announcement yet probably hundreds

play35:08

of people worked on that product and all

play35:10

the different specializations and

play35:12

Explorations all the things that had to

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go into creating that product that

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people are reporting as you know kind of

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mindblowing and in some cases maybe

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life-changing although it seems a little

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hyperbolic but you whe whether you're a

play35:23

believer in The Vision Pro or not

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nobody's every everybody's saying it's

play35:27

one of it's the most incredible consumer

play35:29

electronics product ever conceived ever

play35:31

and like what kind of culture pulls that

play35:33

off like what's the mechanics of a

play35:35

culture that makes that possible well

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and there's a series of them right

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because it it would be one thing if it

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was you know just the iPhone but it's

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also the watch it's also the iPad it's

play35:45

also the Mac yeah the Mac I mean yeah

play35:48

clearly Steve you know and Steve talked

play35:50

about that the various points in his

play35:52

life like the thing that he had created

play35:53

that he was most proud of was Apple you

play35:55

know and that's the culture to go study

play35:56

like what's that what's the machine that

play35:58

makes Apple function and that's apart

play36:01

from the products and what they actually

play36:02

produced it's like what is what is the

play36:04

culture and that's that's how I look at

play36:05

the Apollo program that's how I look at

play36:07

Disney that's how I look at Pixar you

play36:09

know there's there's only a handful of

play36:10

companies that can operate at that way

play36:12

but those are the those are the

play36:14

companies I think we should be studying

play36:15

from again from a case study point of

play36:17

view instead of trying to deconstruct

play36:19

some of these products you say what was

play36:20

the culture and the processes and the

play36:23

mindsets that ended up yielding these

play36:25

products that we all admire so much the

play36:27

fast with big projects has always made

play36:29

sense to me I wanted to make sure other

play36:31

people heard about it and I um it's such

play36:34

an interesting combination of you know

play36:37

history we were in a moment then and

play36:40

what can we pull from that what sorts of

play36:42

things can we think about um and you

play36:46

know broadly applicable you you make

play36:48

people you know if you if you want

play36:50

people to cross an ocean you don't like

play36:53

you know teach him to sail you teach him

play36:54

to yearn for the sea right isn't I love

play36:57

always love hearing about that yeah look

play36:59

I think the trick with with history and

play37:01

it's true with Apollo is you know with

play37:03

all this stuff including Apollo is can

play37:05

you get yourself into a mindset where

play37:07

you can identify with the participants

play37:10

when they didn't know the outcome you

play37:12

know can you sit with James Madison uh

play37:16

in Philadelphia when he showed up

play37:17

earlier for early for the Constitutional

play37:19

Convention and he decides to write a

play37:21

draft of the Constitution James Madison

play37:23

didn't know how it was going to turn out

play37:24

at some point he sits down with paper

play37:26

and he start start structuring a

play37:29

constitution that had three branches of

play37:30

government and all the rest of that

play37:31

stuff can you can you get back to that

play37:33

moment where it wasn't clear what was

play37:34

going to happen can you get yourself

play37:35

back to the moment where it wasn't clear

play37:37

they were going to land on the moon you

play37:39

know they had there was three missions

play37:40

lined up in 1969 so Apollo 11 12 and 13

play37:43

were all queued up to land by the end of

play37:44

1969 because nobody thought they were

play37:46

going to land Apollo 11 they they in

play37:48

fact Neil Armstrong the night before the

play37:51

quote he's at the press conference the

play37:52

night before and he says we the crew of

play37:54

Apollo 11 are privileged to represent

play37:57

Mankind in this our first attempt to

play38:00

land on the moon and so this this

play38:02

concept of like their privilege to have

play38:04

this to be part of this opportunity you

play38:07

know to our first attempt like the

play38:09

mindset was maybe this is going to work

play38:11

and like he's almost out of gas like

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he's got I think 11 seconds of fuel left

play38:14

when he lands and there was a big

play38:16

boulder where they were supposed to land

play38:17

like there's there's a lot of stuff

play38:19

uncertain stuff that happens in that

play38:20

last 180 you know seconds talk about

play38:23

those things though to your point it's

play38:25

actually very difficult to be back in

play38:26

that moment it's much you get much more

play38:29

uh sort of accounts and Analysis of like

play38:32

why it worked and what was anyway yeah

play38:35

when you see the final score you forget

play38:37

how tense the game was and I think you

play38:39

have to go back and put aside the final

play38:41

score and sort of say no this is what

play38:43

the participants were dealing with it

play38:44

wasn't clear and I think that's where my

play38:46

why I study history and that's kind of

play38:47

where my comfort comes from because then

play38:50

you kind of realize oh well like I'm

play38:52

feeling all that uncertainty in my daily

play38:53

life too and that's just well that's how

play38:55

it's always been you know that's what it

play38:57

means to be in the now I don't know how

play38:59

the election's going to turn out I don't

play39:00

know what's going to happen with the

play39:01

pandemic I don't know what's going to

play39:02

happen with the weather I don't know

play39:04

what's going to happen with my job with

play39:05

the econom like like nobody ever knows

play39:07

what's going to happen that's how it

play39:08

always is right and uh if all you ever

play39:11

think about is the final score you

play39:12

forget that the game was very much in

play39:14

doubt Bob thanks for being on fig Brew

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always fascinating thank you Mr Hogan

play39:20

lovely to see you as always thank you

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and I can't wait to have you back love

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to have you back that would be great

play39:26

anytime I'm around

play39:28

[Music]

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