Side projects to break into Product Management!

Summary

In this insightful discussion, Diego Granados interviews Bosky Mukherjee, founder of PM Dojo, a learning community for aspiring product managers. They delve into the essential qualities hiring managers seek in candidates, emphasizing the importance of thinking like a PM and demonstrating problem-solving skills through side projects. Bosky shares her journey and insights on diversity in tech, the power of no-code platforms for non-technical founders, and the importance of marketing and relationship-building in product management. The conversation offers valuable advice for those looking to break into the field, highlighting the significance of understanding one's 'why', embracing imposter syndrome, and leveraging LinkedIn for networking.

Takeaways

• 😀 Aspiring product managers (PMs) should demonstrate the ability to think like a PM and approach problems with the right questions and assumptions, rather than just filling in templates.
• 🔍 Hiring managers seek to see if candidates can identify real problems and validate them, instead of just building products based on personal preferences or convenience.
• 🌟 A side project should be something that you are passionate about and that fulfills a need, ideally solving a problem for more than just yourself or a small group.
• 🛠️ Building a product or side project can help aspiring PMs stand out in a competitive job market by showcasing their skills and experience beyond just a resume.
• 💡 PM Dojo, founded by Baskey Mukherjee, is a learning community designed to help aspiring PMs step into the role of a PM through immersive learning experiences.
• 🌐 Non-technical individuals can also become PMs, and no-code platforms have made it possible for them to build and launch products without needing to write code.
• 📈 The importance of marketing and user discovery is highlighted; aspiring PMs should not wait until after launching their product to start promoting it.
• 🤝 Building relationships and networking are crucial for job hunting, as hiring is a relationship-building activity rather than a purely transactional one.
• 🚀 Aspiring PMs should believe in themselves, reflect on their 'why' for product management, and be prepared to discuss this in interviews.
• 🧩 It's acknowledged that imposter syndrome is a common and natural feeling, and rather than trying to eliminate it, it should be embraced as a sign of stepping out of one's comfort zone.
• 🔑 Reflect on skill gaps and undertake small experiments to validate and fill them, as continuous learning is key in the ever-evolving tech industry.

Q & A

What are some key traits hiring managers look for in aspiring product managers' projects?

Hiring managers look for the ability to think like a product manager, including problem decomposition, asking the right questions, making assumptions, and solving problems in a way that fits the product management mold.

What is PM Dojo and who is its founder?

PM Dojo is a learning community for aspiring product managers or career transitioners who want to break into product management. It was founded by Baskey Mukherjee.

Why did Baskey Mukherjee start PM Dojo?

Baskey started PM Dojo to address the lack of diversity in tech applications and to provide an alternative education path for those wanting to break into product management without incurring significant debt.

What is Baskey Mukherjee's background?

Baskey Mukherjee has been in product and technology for 20 years, working in various roles within product management in different companies and countries, and has also been a hiring manager and product executive.

How does Baskey differentiate between a side project and a side hustle?

A side project is something one works on out of passion, not necessarily for monetization, while a side hustle is monetized and generates income, often starting as a side project but becoming a more serious endeavor.

What is the importance of building a product for aspiring product managers according to the interview?

Building a product allows aspiring product managers to demonstrate their capabilities and understanding of product management, stand out in a competitive job market, and increase their chances of getting hired.

Why do some hiring managers prefer candidates with technical backgrounds?

Some hiring managers may have a bias towards technical backgrounds due to the nature of the product or because they believe it facilitates better communication with technical stakeholders within the company.

What is the role of no-code platforms in enabling non-technical individuals to build products?

No-code platforms allow non-technical individuals to build and launch production-quality software through point-click-drag interfaces, making it possible for them to validate ideas and solve problems without needing to write code.

How should aspiring product managers approach the problem-solving aspect of their side projects?

Aspiring product managers should approach problems with a product management mindset, identifying real pain points, validating the size of the problem, and working through the stages of validation before building a solution.

What advice does Baskey give for standing out as an aspiring product manager?

Baskey advises aspiring product managers to believe in themselves, understand their 'why' for wanting a product management role, identify and work on filling gaps in their skills, and embrace imposter syndrome as a natural part of growth.

How can aspiring product managers leverage their side projects to demonstrate their capabilities to hiring managers?

Aspiring product managers can showcase their side projects as demonstrations of their product management abilities, ensuring to highlight their problem identification, solution validation, and product development processes.

What is the significance of marketing and user discovery in side projects for aspiring product managers?

Marketing and user discovery are crucial for demonstrating an understanding of product adoption and market needs. It shows hiring managers that the candidate can not only build a product but also ensure it is used and valued by its intended audience.

Outlines

00:00

🔎 Hiring Managers' Expectations for Aspiring PMs

The paragraph discusses what hiring managers look for in side projects and products built by aspiring product managers (PMs). It emphasizes the importance of thinking like a PM, being able to decompose problems, ask the right questions, and make sound assumptions. The focus is not on filling out templates but on demonstrating product sense and the ability to approach problems as a PM would. The script also introduces the video's guest, Baskey Mukherjee, the founder of PM Dojo, a learning community for aspiring PMs, and provides a brief overview of her background in product management and technology across various countries.

05:03

🎓 PM Dojo's Mission and Baskey's Background

This section delves into Baskey Mukherjee's motivations for starting PM Dojo, addressing the lack of diversity in tech applications and the need for a more accessible and practical education system for aspiring PMs. It highlights her extensive experience in product and technology roles, her entrepreneurial ventures, and her goal with PM Dojo to provide immersive learning experiences that simulate real-world product management roles.

10:03

💡 The Importance of Building Products to Stand Out

Baskey explains the competitive nature of the PM role and the importance of building products to demonstrate one's capability to think and act as a PM. She discusses the limitations of resumes and LinkedIn profiles in differentiating candidates and suggests that hands-on experience in building and launching a product can significantly improve one's chances of standing out to hiring managers.

15:05

🤔 Defining Side Projects, Side Hustles, and Startups

The paragraph clarifies the distinctions between side projects, side hustles, and startups. It defines side projects as passion-driven endeavors outside of one's primary occupation, side hustles as monetized ventures, and startups as more serious business ventures that may evolve from side projects. Baskey encourages aspiring PMs to understand the different intentions and goals behind these projects.

20:05

🛠️ What Hiring Managers Look for in Side Projects

Baskey outlines the criteria hiring managers use to evaluate side projects from aspiring PMs. She stresses the importance of demonstrating a PM's thought process, including problem identification, customer understanding, and the ability to validate assumptions. The paragraph also highlights the pitfalls of focusing on personal interests rather than market needs and the necessity of building something tangible rather than just a theoretical proposal.

25:06

🛑 The Misconception of Technical Backgrounds in PM Roles

Baskey dispels the myth that a technical background is required to become a PM. She asserts that while understanding the software development process is important, hands-on coding skills are not necessary. She also touches on the use of no-code platforms, which allow non-technical individuals to build and launch products, further emphasizing that technical expertise is not a barrier to entering product management.

30:07

🤷‍♀️ The Challenge of Choosing a Project to Build

This section addresses the common question of what product to build, acknowledging the difficulty of the task. Baskey suggests that individuals should focus on identifying and solving real-world problems rather than simply improving existing products. She shares examples of successful projects from PM Dojo that have tackled significant social issues, emphasizing the importance of impact over technical complexity.

35:08

📢 Marketing and Promotion After Launching a Side Project

Baskey advises against waiting until after launching a side project to start marketing efforts. She recommends engaging with potential users and stakeholders from the outset, building excitement, and validating the market. The paragraph also discusses the importance of managing one's career like a product, including personal branding and networking, as part of the overall strategy for aspiring PMs.

40:09

📝 How to Present Side Projects on Resumes and LinkedIn

The paragraph discusses how to appropriately present side projects on resumes and LinkedIn profiles. Baskey advises against misrepresenting one's role but encourages showcasing the experience as an example of product management skills. She emphasizes the importance of authenticity and leveraging networking and relationship-building as part of the job search strategy.

45:12

🌟 Final Advice for Aspiring PMs

Baskey concludes with advice for aspiring PMs, urging them to believe in themselves, understand their motivations for pursuing a product management role, and to be reflective about their skills and gaps. She also addresses imposter syndrome, suggesting that it's a natural feeling that can be harnessed positively, and encourages building connections and engaging in relationship-building activities as part of the job search process.

📌 Where to Find More Information on PM Dojo and Baskey

The final paragraph provides information on how to connect with Baskey and learn more about PM Dojo. It mentions Baskey's active presence on LinkedIn and the PM Dojo website, where interested individuals can find more about the organization's offerings, including the product accelerator program.

Keywords

💡Product Manager

A Product Manager is a professional responsible for guiding a product from conception to market launch and beyond. They are involved in every stage of the product development process, from gathering and prioritizing product and user requirements to defining the product vision. In the script, the role of a Product Manager is emphasized as someone who can think strategically, solve problems effectively, and lead cross-functional teams. The discussion revolves around how aspiring Product Managers can demonstrate these skills through side projects and how hiring managers assess candidates' abilities to think and act like Product Managers.

💡Side Projects

Side projects refer to initiatives or tasks that are undertaken outside of one's main job or study commitments. They often stem from personal interests or a desire to explore new skills. In the context of the video, side projects are discussed as a means for aspiring Product Managers to showcase their ability to identify problems, solve them creatively, and manage a product from concept to completion. They serve as tangible evidence of a candidate's product management potential, as highlighted by the speaker's emphasis on building and launching a product as part of a side project.

💡Hiring Managers

Hiring managers are the individuals responsible for recruiting, interviewing, and selecting new employees for a company. They look for candidates who can fit well within the team and contribute effectively to the organization's goals. In the script, hiring managers are depicted as seeking candidates who can demonstrate product management skills through tangible projects. They are interested in how candidates approach problem-solving, decompose complex issues, and validate assumptions, which are critical skills for Product Managers.

💡Product Sense

Product sense refers to an intuitive understanding of what makes a product successful, including user needs, market trends, and competitive dynamics. It involves the ability to anticipate user behavior and make informed decisions about product features and design. In the video, product sense is mentioned as a quality that hiring managers look for in aspiring Product Managers. It is not just about filling in templates but about having a deep, instinctive understanding of product development and the user experience.

💡Diversity in Tech

Diversity in tech refers to the inclusion of individuals from various backgrounds, cultures, genders, and experiences within the technology industry. The script discusses the importance of diversity and the challenges faced in achieving it, particularly in the context of hiring. The founder of PM Dojo expresses frustration with the lack of diverse candidates in tech and the need to encourage more diverse applications, which is a broader issue within the industry that impacts hiring practices and company cultures.

💡No-Code Platforms

No-Code Platforms are tools that allow users to build software applications without writing code. They are designed to be user-friendly and accessible, enabling non-technical individuals to create web and mobile applications. In the script, no-code platforms are mentioned as a way for aspiring Product Managers without a technical background to build and launch their own products. This underscores how these platforms can democratize product creation and level the playing field for those looking to demonstrate their product management abilities.

💡Imposter Syndrome

Imposter syndrome is a psychological pattern where individuals doubt their accomplishments and fear being exposed as a 'fraud'. Despite evidence of their abilities, they attribute their success to luck rather than to their own skills or talents. In the video, imposter syndrome is discussed as a common feeling among aspiring Product Managers and a natural part of the learning process. The speaker advises embracing this feeling rather than trying to eliminate it, as it can prevent overconfidence and encourage continuous learning.

💡Go-to-Market Strategy

A go-to-market strategy outlines the target audience, positioning, messaging, and sales and marketing tactics to launch a product successfully. It is a critical component of product management, ensuring that the product reaches its intended users effectively. In the script, the importance of thinking about go-to-market strategies for side projects is emphasized. Aspiring Product Managers are encouraged to consider how they will create awareness, generate interest, and convert users into customers for their projects, mirroring real-world product management responsibilities.

💡Career Transition

Career transition refers to the process of moving from one job or career to another. It often involves acquiring new skills, updating resumes, and networking to find opportunities in a different field. The video script discusses career transition in the context of individuals looking to break into product management. The founder of PM Dojo shares insights on how building side projects can help career transitioners demonstrate their potential as Product Managers and stand out to hiring managers.

💡PM Dojo

PM Dojo is a learning community for aspiring Product Managers or those looking to transition into product roles. It offers an immersive program designed to simulate real-world product management experiences, allowing participants to step into the role of a Product Manager before securing a job. In the script, PM Dojo is presented as a platform that helps individuals build products, gain practical experience, and increase their chances of breaking into product management by showcasing their abilities through tangible projects.

Highlights

Hiring managers seek candidates who can think like product managers and approach problems with the right questions and assumptions.

Product Sense is not just about filling in templates but having the 'spidey sense' to identify the right problems to solve in the market.

Bosky Mukherjee, the founder of PM Dojo, emphasizes the importance of immersive learning for aspiring PMs.

PM Dojo aims to tackle the lack of diversity in tech by encouraging more diverse applications and providing a platform for learning product management.

The frustration with the traditional education system's lack of practical experience led to the creation of PM Dojo.

No-code platforms have enabled non-technical founders to build and launch products, breaking the myth that a technical background is necessary.

Hiring managers look for side projects that demonstrate a product manager's ability to identify and solve real-world problems.

Side projects should not just be about personal interest but should address a pain point for a user or market.

Aspiring PMs should not wait until the end of a project to start marketing; building excitement and awareness is crucial from the start.

Imposter syndrome is a natural feeling and can be embraced as a check against overconfidence.

Aspiring PMs should reflect on their 'why' for product management to differentiate themselves in interviews.

It's important for aspiring PMs to identify and address gaps in their skills through small experiments and learning.

Building relationships and connecting with the right people in the industry is key for aspiring PMs.

Hiring is a relationship-building activity, not transactional, and aspiring PMs should approach networking with this in mind.

Bosky shares her experience working in six different countries and how it shaped her perspective as a product executive.

The importance of not just launching a product but also focusing on user adoption and feature discovery post-launch.

How to effectively market side projects and personal brands on platforms like LinkedIn to stand out to hiring managers.

Transcripts

what are hiring managers look for in in

this scythe hustler or these projects or

these products that aspiring pms

build when i'm kind of thinking as a

hiring manager what i hear from other

hiring managers in pm dojo

these are some of the things that keep

on coming um

they want to see if you can think like a

product manager

essentially like as a hiring manager we

want to see if i

see a site project or if i see a deck

i want to see if you are able to

think like a pm approach the problem

like a product manager

if you're able to decouple decompose

things ask the right

questions what kind of assumptions

you're making

are you able to kind of solve it in a

way

that kind of fits the mold

i'm not looking to see if you can fill

in the blanks on all of the templates

no right and that is what product sense

is

[Music]

hello everyone and welcome to diego

granados and i'm a product manager

and today i have a very special guest

with us i have bosky with me

who is the founder of pm dojo pm dodge

is a learning community for aspiring pms

or career

career transitioners who are wanting to

break into product

she'll tell you more about that but

first of all bossky how are you it's a

pleasure to have you here

it's a pleasure to be here diego this is

uh yeah this has been a long time coming

thank you now i'm doing really really

well really really well thank you

that's awesome and and once again thank

you for being with us today

and before we get started into talking

about products

projects pm dojo why don't you tell us a

little bit about yourself

absolutely so baskey mukherjee uh

currently in beautiful vancouver bc

british columbia

in canada i

have been in product and technology now

for 20 years

i kind of saw the very beginning of what

product management used to be even

before i knew what product management

was i'm also a mom

to a six and a half year old so life's

been really crazy since pandemic started

with

homes home teaching and everything

and yeah so i started my career in

product

many many many years ago grew my

you know into different roles within

product different companies

fun fact i've worked in six different

countries including the tiny island of

bermuda

i've been a hiring manager product

executive

and my two stints uh as an entrepreneur

right now

so there you go and that is an awesome

set of experiences and super interesting

working in so many different countries

and your latest project your latest

startup is pm dojo

where did the idea from pm dodger came

from and and tell us a little bit about

about it um

so uh pm dojo was really boring

out of a few things that i was seeing in

the market

in our space in in product for quite

some time

so number one i was really getting

frustrated with the whole narrative

around the lack of diversity in tech we

know that as a fact

but what was frustrating was that the

all of these conversations would come

and stop at the narrative that companies

need to hire more diverse candidates

right which is a fact but

we don't begin with that many diverse

applications

right so when i was a hiring manager and

i was looking at the pool i wasn't

getting that

many diverse candidates how do we even

define diversity that's another point

when i talked with other high rate

managers at least in north america

we were seeing the same trend and so

it wasn't just enough to wait for

companies to hire more and more diverse

people

so we had to do something else to

encourage that there were way more

diverse applications to begin with

so what was that i wanted to kind of

tackle that and it seemed very scary and

very big

and of course in a true product manager

fashion

my mvp was not the whole of tech but i

wanted to do something in product

so that was number one the second one

was i was really again

exhausted and frustrated with this whole

business of education

um it's very much designed for

privileged i was an international

student myself

um you know with a big debt um

when i came to the u.s many years ago i

talk with a lot of

people who want to get into product or

in tech with this tremendous amount of

debt

um and so the way the current education

system works is that you pay a lot of

money and

you spend a lot of effort you spend a

lot of time and you end up learning only

theory

which doesn't help you if you're

applying for roles that

even entry-level roles that ask for

experience so i wanted to do something

about that and

though that was the primary reason why

these two things came into being

in wanting to solve um i've been

influenced by martial arts even though i

know nothing about martial arts but

the the philosophy of martial arts is

something that i resonate with and so

dojo from martial arts it means in

japanese it means it's a craft

that you learn under the mastery of some

kind of a master or a guru and it's very

immersive learning

and when i think about product

management it has felt like martial arts

a lot of the times

uh it also there's a big piece of

craftsmanship that i believe when it

comes to building products

and so i wanted to kind of bring in

those elements and hence pm dojo was

born an immersive learning community

where you get to

step into the role of a product manager

before your first role so we tried to

simulate all of that in the program

so there you go that is an amazing story

thank you so much for sharing that

breaking 2pm is tough we see it

every day and there are many many paths

to get into pm

you you have focused much more on

teaching and helping aspiring pms or

career transitioners

that they should build products in order

to be a product manager

why is that why not just take your

resume tailor it and

apply to the company that you want to

i mean i'm not against resume or

or mock interviews or any of these

things

but i think it comes down to the fact

that the competition is just getting

fiercer every day

i think post pandemic uh you know when

i'm still working with companies as part

of my other venture

um you know where i'm at an advisor with

a lot of tech companies and i'm helping

them build product teams and define

what level of product you know is needed

and i'm looking at resumes

i'm looking at tons like hundreds and

hundreds and hundreds of resumes for the

same role

and what is happening thankfully i guess

is that most people have somewhat

learned how to do their resume right so

there was once upon a time where i

couldn't even make the difference

between a cover letter and a resume they

both looked very similar

they both had novels written they were

like five six seven pages now most

people have learned you know one page

two page you know put accomplishment put

outcome

and so if i'm looking at resume and i

remove the name of the person

most resumes are looking very similar as

a hiring manager i don't have

a lot of things to know how different

one candidate is

from the other and there are a lot more

other dimensions to us

than just a document which is a resume

and a url which is our linkedin profile

and in order to stand out and

in order to be ready for roles

that require two years three years four

years experience even for entry level

roles

you have to learn how to do it you

and it just improves your odds i guess

right um you know

if you think about the fact that

uh you can read about product management

it sounds

kind of rational right it sounds

practical it sounds

sensible but we all know that in the

real world

so messy uh partly because of people

us right like humans right we're quite

messy we're complicated creatures right

and so it's never just about frameworks

um if it was about frameworks then

all like disagreements at work you know

would have been resolved by

changing one framework prioritized

different way and we would all be

singing kumbaya it doesn't happen like

this in the real world right

and so how do you stand out and how do

you even know

if this particular role is for you if

you have

not done it then you will not know and

so

my idea and my intention behind pm dojo

is that

get to build a product live the life of

a pm

know firsthand if this role is something

for you

before you kind of get into it and while

doing it increase your odds 10 times

because you don't have to then struggle

with getting your resume through ats you

don't have to struggle talking about

your transferable skills just demo a

product that you launched

to a hiring manager uh it's not as

simple as that

but it does work wonder wonderfully well

and it makes perfect sense i mean the

way that you describe the

the resume is one thing but then showing

that you

have the experience through building

this product is definitely going to set

you apart from the competition

now a lot of people think that scythe

projects

are you know a startup a site business

is that a science project what is that

what exactly is is you know these side

projects or these products so

terminologies right

it's the same thing like frameworks

right like if we get like so hung up on

this

um side projects can be a lot of

different things

but then you also have passion projects

you have side hustles

you have all of these terms and

terminologies

the way i like to think about it in my

head

is that side project has been there

forever

a lot of the developers and engineers

have typically worked on it

and that's what kind of got the

popularity as far as i understand and so

side project is

kind of in any any project we have to

define what a project is

but any anything that you're working on

the side you have your day job or your

main

thing whatever you're working that pays

your bills and everything and then

you're kind of doing something on the

side that you're deeply passionate about

that somehow either fulfills your need

uh you know some need that's not getting

fulfilled at work

or maybe it is something that allows you

to tinker and learn new skills

um or anything that you do on the site

that typically at a very very high level

is a side project

it may or may not monetize right usually

it's not

monetizing at a side hustle uh on the

other hand

is something that is monetized so

usually people who have their day job

or night job whatever your situation is

um you're doing that but then you have

something on the

side that you may have started as a

fashion project or a side project but

it's now becoming a hustle which i don't

like the word hustle

but yes it is something that's is

running by the side

that is also generating your side income

a lot of people especially after

pandemic

are really beginning to think that

especially as they're thinking about

what's going to happen with their work

are they going to have a job do they

even want to have a job do they want to

do this

a lot of people right now are beginning

to uh

there's a lot of inspiration to become a

creator and a builder in the current

economy and the world we live in so

side hustles really really work well

startup

i mean startup is very different though

right like it can start

as a side project but then it's i guess

the intention behind how serious you are

in terms of making it like a fully

fledged adventure you're going to be

hiring people eventually

i think the seriousness becomes a lot

more and eventually you do want to leave

i guess your job and kind of start

focusing full time

i would say just at a high level that's

how i try to explain myself what these

differences are

i don't get hung up with these

definitions i guess it's i think more

the intention but the goal is and how

you're

getting about it to do this when when

aspiring bms think that

a scythe project has to be a you know a

full company

end-to-end and and and you're absolutely

right right

some people take their passion project

and that becomes a startup and

it's something else but it doesn't have

to go to that extent

it can be like you said a site hustle a

passion project something

that you're interested in besides your

work your school whatever you're doing

now speaking of these projects um

whatever

you know people are doing out there what

do hiring managers

look for in in these projects right

because we talked about

there's a resume and and you show that

you can be a pm

by actually showing that you are already

a pm

in your site hustle in your startup in

whatever project you're doing

now just to finish the question many

aspiring pms

send me their portfolio or or their

project or their site hustle for

feedback and

most of the times it's either you know a

very very small simple presentation with

a few

words and how they would improve their

favorite app sometimes it's just the

website

but but that's it so so what are hiring

managers look for

in in this scythe hustler or these

projects or these products that aspiring

pms

so i think when in my mind i think just

that when you're talking about a diego

like if it is like a critique

the design critique of an existing

product

um you know which is like a deck

for me i wouldn't consider that a side

project like

for me when i think about a side project

it needs to be something

that you've kind of built and launched

so like what you do right with your

youtube channel right

all of that for me that would be a side

project maybe eventually can become

something else but it is a side project

where you built it

i think a lot of the times

as product managers would be product

managers we are constantly thinking

about products you know

i'm gonna pick up my new phone i'm gonna

automatically i

should automatically start thinking as a

pm what is

what is going on here right like is it

good not bad how can i improve what am i

not like i think it just becomes natural

in us

that wouldn't be a side project for me

that would just be

my me just practicing right and and

getting

maybe it can become a portfolio maybe

just like you know you may want to

um i think when i'm kind of thinking as

a hiring manager what i hear from other

hiring managers in pm dojo

these are some of the things that keep

on coming um

they want to see if you can think like a

product manager

essentially like as a hiring manager we

want to see if i

see a site project or if i see a deck

i want to see if you are able to

think like a pm approach the problem

like a product manager

if you're able to decouple decompose

things ask the right questions

what kind of assumptions you're making

are you able to kind of

solve it in a way that kind of fits

the mold i'm not looking to see if you

can fill in the blanks on all of the

templates

no right and that is what product sense

is

right a big part of product sense

i think for me as a hiring manager is

also your spidey sense

so something that i have strongly

believed

is that as product managers we get paid

not because we can solve our own

problems

but we should be able to solve we should

be able to identify the right

problems in the market that needs to be

solved and then kind of work with the

team to solve it

so if it's that then um

we shouldn't be kind of seeing a side

project where

you cannot tell me about who the

customers are what their pain points are

i'll give an example um i was

you know once hiring for a pm role um i

received a candidate's resume

um and they had like six or seven

site projects on paper it looked

wonderful

right uh it went into two pages it was

an entry-level role but six seven side

projects right

i was just amazed i mean a lot of the

times i would see volunteering roles

that would excite me

but this time they had actually done

site projects there were links and

everything

i of course didn't have all of the time

to go through all of the links but i was

like

worthwhile i want to talk to talk to

them

and so as i started interviewing you

know my first question was can you tell

me a little bit about

this they started talking about how

they're interested in some technology

and they wanted to tinker along with it

and they kind of did something and that

was what the what the site project was

like

went to the next one we went through all

of the six or seven side projects

not one was about a pain point

that was not for them or their one

friend or two friends

or it was not for the family member and

there was no

like you know the the mindset for how do

you even validate

how do you find out how big of a problem

is it why does that problem exist

that thing wasn't there so you can work

on as many side projects but if you

don't start thinking like a pm

to identify those problems and go

through those

i guess you know the stages of

validating

right and it becomes kind of pointless

right so

in summary i would say as a hiring

manager you want to kind of

you want to see from candidates who are

thinking about the problem

as a product manager really questioning

themselves and why

is it even necessary to solve this and

then if it becomes like a side project

then you can launch it and you can see

it i wouldn't want to see a deck all of

the time

decks have become too common now so

again i think standing out

i like to see something that that is

built and something more than a website

that has all the information it should

do something right

you know a lot of the times i just see

aggregators you know and then it might

have a button and if i click the button

i get to send an

email i mean for me that's not a product

right

uh it's just a website let me retake one

very

important thing that you said because

you're absolutely right a lot of times i

receive

a portfolio a project a link url

something

and the first question that i ask myself

is

are they doing this because they found

the problem they talk to users

or because they have the problem they

think it's a problem for everyone and

then they solve it

and most of the time the answer is is

the latter

they never stop for a moment to think

is this a problem am i solving a problem

or am i just having an inconvenience

with the product and i want to change it

and that's crucial not only for these

site projects and the products

but also for interviews because as pms

you never improve a product based on

what you think it's always about the

users the pain points the market

research so

that was fantastic thank you so much for

for sharing that with us

now thinking about these products and

you mentioned yes

making a button send an email is

definitely not a full

product but at the same time a lot of

people don't have the technical

background

they're worried they won't be able to

create a project

should they be worried do they need to

take classes on coding

how do they go about this this is like i

i i sometimes wonder what

started this myth you know like it's

like in every single thing

uh probably it is you know people like

me

who transition into product from a

computer science background and here i'm

talking about no you don't need

technical background

i don't believe uh that you need a

technical background with a caveat

and again this is not like an aha moment

i'm sure that this is

people have heard this time and again if

you're looking to transition or break

into product

and this is your first time and you

don't come from a technical background

you don't need to take coding class

because as a pm you don't have to review

code you don't have to

sit down and write code

you do need to understand at a very

conceptual

level how software gets built you do

need to have

passion for technology and software if

you're talking about product management

in tech but you don't need to sit down

and write code you don't even have to

manage developers right uh usually

you're going to have someone who's going

to be managing

but what happens is that unless and

until

you are trying for a role where either

the product is like a devops

uh maybe it is an api maybe it is a

platform

maybe it is iot so really technical

products of course there

your chances of course get very limited

if you don't have

come from a technical background uh

sometimes i've also seen where in

companies

uh or hiring managers there might be a

little bit of a bias

right like we all have biases right all

of us have biases

some people might have a bias that i

need to have only people who come from a

technical

background because our internal

stakeholders are very technical

and it'll be just so i think you have to

kind of think about those but for most

roles in pm you don't need to unless and

until you have some passion and some

understanding of how software gets built

um but you don't need to have a

technical background if you want to

launch something

on the side so like in pm dojo

we have partnerships with no code

platforms um no code platforms has been

there in existence for

a very very very long time and it took

the entire startup world

by the storm especially for

non-technical founders

about nine ten years ago it was

impossible

for a non-technical founder to even

believe that they could be someone who

could launch their own business or their

product

right they would either have to the path

would be they would have to go and find

a cto that they've never worked with

or maybe someone they've worked with

many years ago then they've tried to

bring them as a cto they try to start

working or

maybe you have to spend money in hiring

a deaf team

and then when they would be ready to get

funding and all of this their

conversations would turn into well

what's your runway

how much have you spent uh how many

customers do you have

well none but we've spent all of this

money right

and now what non-technical founders are

doing for the last several years is that

they have they are using no code

platforms

and you can actually build with point

click

drag right it's not as simple as that

but it's very very simple

point click and drag you can launch

production quality software both web

apps

both mobile apps um with actual users

with data with integrations with all of

that

and you can get through all of that

validation so no you don't need to learn

how to code you certainly don't need how

to code

you do need to understand though how

software does get built

at a high level um and then you can go

from there and

use technology to beat the myth that you

need to be very technical in order to

get into product

now that is fantastic and plus one to

everything you said including

uh or especially the no code platforms i

think there are so many options out

there nowadays that

you don't need to know how to go if you

want to do it that's awesome but you

don't need to do it

to build products or to become a product

manager

so that's fantastic thank you for

sharing that posky now um

another very typical question that i get

in my messages

about products inside projects people

come to me and say

can you tell me what product should i

build um how should they think about

building these projects should they

you know do a side project on a company

they want to get into

should they try to come up with

something

how do you answer to all of these that

that come to you and ask you

tell me please tell me what to build

please come and tell me what you get

how what should i build it's a golden

question isn't it like if i had all of

these ideas i would probably be a

multi-millionaire sitting in a vc

right um you know exactly

um i would say we should

you know we've heard of this right it

depends that famous answer

i think it depends we've i've certainly

seen people

who have gotten opportunities

by working on something that they wanted

to improve

so we had a speaker come in in pm dojo

a few cohorts ago they are in linkedin

they basically published an article a

really well written article it wasn't

superficial one it was really well

taught off

about their experience with a certain

product and how they would improve it

it was very very critically written as

something that i

really it's one of those examples that i

have um

and they ended up actually getting

invited for an interview

right um so we've seen that happen

um but i think it comes down to that

basic fundamental question how are you

gonna stand out

when most people are kind of

writing about this and and so it is one

of those

it is tough but it is one of those

easier steps right easier ways to kind

of

think about a product and kind of come

up with a critique

um i'm going to give an example of um

what happened when i was doing my mba

and you don't need an mba to get into

product

that's also the thing i did mba for very

different reasons

another another very cool question and

yes you don't need an mba

don't need an mba i i really think you

know that mba story is

actually this is just my interpretation

i might be totally wrong here but

a lot of people actually still come into

product from technical background

right and that's how product managers

were hired long time ago too

right folks from certain university kind

of get them and you start kind of

working on the product

and so there is obviously a gap between

technical and business and you try to

kind of understand that so i really feel

that mba requirement or that bullet

point

in the job description really kind of

has stayed from there but

that's the story for another thing you

do not need an mba

um but i i think it comes

so when i was doing my mba we had a

strategic

advantage or some kind of a core module

it was many years ago

and we were sitting there and it was a

case study about microsoft

and we were sitting there and we were

reading that case study

and there were quite a few things that

kind of didn't go uh

what it should the way it should have

been and i'm sitting there with a few of

my

teammates and i'm like duh like you know

we spent half an hour in reading this

case studying we already kind of have a

pretty good

understanding of how things shouldn't

have been done

so here we have these really smart

people in a company

maybe microsoft maybe anything right

like when you're when you're working

through case studies and all of this

right

and how come they couldn't figure it out

like how come

and we sitting here we haven't even

finished our mba right

we're obviously not as smart as these

awesome people how could we figure it

out right

um and we had one of the industry

veterans come into a class for a lecture

and i asked this question and they said

something that's kind of

remained really kind of foundational to

me throughout these years is that

they said hindsight is always 20 20.

and so when you're doing a deck or

you're working on a case study

that world is very sanitized the real

world is not sanitized

we can sit here critique all of that

in order to implement it it's a really

really whole another ball game

and it's not just about implementing it

you have to also make sure that users

are using it

or if they're using something else that

they're adopting your product

how are they increasing their usage

they're all these different elements

it's not just about shipping

right it's not just about check mark and

so i think it all comes down to this

right if you're thinking about this

doing a deck or doing a design critique

on a product

might give you some brownie points but

it might not be

all the things that you need in order to

kind of make that transition happen and

cross the bridge

and so why not kind of figure out

what you need to solve in order to think

about what you need to solve it comes

back to this fundamental question that

is pms

very much we have to develop that spidey

sense right

we need to be able to uh be able to put

in all of these things

uh map them out in our head and kind of

make some deductions

on what might be some of these pain

points that we actually validate and

then solve for

and i think that becomes the thing that

you have to kind of start learning it

doesn't have to be

scary uh you know i can give a few

examples right

like like in pm dojo we've had teams who

have

built and launched a product for helping

victims from domestic abuse connect with

each other

and even know if they are in an abusive

relationship

because a lot of the times people don't

know they're in an abusive relationship

we've had a product that's launched and

gordon did that gordon and his team

where they wanted to solve a problem for

earlier career

professionals to get career advice from

more professionals in an anonymous way

you know

very pretty simple problem uh in the

world that we live in today the

unfortunate the only unfortunate aspect

is that there are more problems than

solutions

so you can i'm sure that people if you

think a little bit

talk to people uh you will you will find

problems you know and you will get to

know the more people you talk to is this

a real problem

how important is it how how frequently

does it happen to you is it like once a

year

you know uh that's amazing and so

um i have a follow-up question for you

when you mention yeah it's not just

about launching the product

and that's it at the end of the story so

when we think of these

aspiring plums aspiring pms building

products or scythe projects or scythe

hustles

to show that they can be product

managers they launched that

whatever it is an app a website

portfolio whatever it is they launch it

um now what do they do after that how do

they tell the world the hiring managers

hey i built something i can get a job

into pm

how do they do that okay okay um and

uh so my question would be diego are you

talking in general are you talking about

how we do in pm dojo

whichever you prefer i mean as advice to

somebody who's building a side project

yeah what do they do after they launch

it so one thing is you don't want to

wait after you launch it to do your

marketing just like in the real world in

the real world you're thinking about

adoption how are you going to create

awareness

so it's no point even in the real world

as a pm and i see this mistake so many

times

where you've launched it and then you

start thinking oh boy now we need to

work with marketing

[Laughter]

i've made that mistake so

and i've seen that many times just like

that

when you're working on a side project or

whatever side thing you're working on

in order to kind of stand out you want

to make sure that you're not

waiting until it's done because

you also have to make sure that you're

getting people excited

all these different kinds of people you

know when you're doing your initial

validation

uh you can sign up people for your beta

you know so there are lots of different

ways like you have to really start

thinking as a product manager this is

why

right it's you have to get out of a

project manager mindset where you're

managing a project

really start thinking as a product

manager and as a product manager

usually i'm thinking where am i going to

get my users

how am i going to get my users how am i

going to think about converting those

users

into customers right what does that

journey look like

and so i typically tell people not to

wait until the end

this is what we do even in our program

um we start

right from this the second week itself

right

where you are basically validating

you're trying to test how big the market

is and every step of the way

you're validating with users you're

trying to get them excited

you're trying to get customers and

organizations excited who might partner

with you

uh it's not easy but that is something

that it is like one of those hurdles

that we have to kind of

get over with in order to get that um

and then the more you

kind of do all of this work up front

you have less of a trouble trying to

kind of start the whole marketing or the

go-to marketing

effort right more than the side

project or the product that you've

launched even

as a aspiring pm or as a professional

who's thinking into transitioning into a

product

i've always believed that you need to

manage your career as a product

right and so if in the real world you

have to do go to marketing or you have

to work with someone who does go to

marketing for your product

uh i wasn't that fortunate i i only had

a go-to marketing

like a marketing product marketing

person once in my entire career other

times i've had to kind of figure it out

somehow

um but you have to make sure that you're

spending some good amount of effort on

go to marketing for yourself

so whether that means that you're

sharing stuff what you're learning

what you're thinking what you have to

have a point of view

as a product manager and a lot of times

i see people who come in even for

interviews and say

i don't know which way and what to do

well you have to have a point of view

based on what you have heard what you've

learned what you know

um and so how can you have these

intelligent

engaging conversations with the

community at large

and it's become so easy to do that right

now right on linkedin

and all of these different platforms so

yeah don't wait until the end

do these little steps throughout to make

sure that you're building that traction

um through a lot of different ways

linkedin is my favorite

depending on your product of course you

know your and the audience and

yeah your audience and all yeah i think

that if it were as

easy as build it and they will come

probably marketing wouldn't exist

and the reality is that it's not like

that so there's a lot of work that needs

to happen

throughout the whole development of the

product or the project like you said not

just wait until

you launch it and then you have to do

again all the work so

that is fantastic i have then even if

you think diego sorry like even if you

think of a real

like a real product right in the real

world when we right let's say it's

existing it has

tons of customers even then as pm's we

have to think about

a feature discovery so many times you

know we are using products that have

tons of features and half of the time

even as a user of the product i don't

know of a feature that was launched

so i mean exactly yeah you have to think

right

yeah that makes a lot of sense uh that's

a great example

and and i have one last question for you

about the scythe projects and

uh if i'm an aspiring pm i build my

product i'm doing all this

you know say marketing user discovery

i'm doing all of these steps

at the end of it uh because say i want

to wait until i finally release a

product

should i ask to my resume product

manager should i add to my linkedin

product manager or do i just call them

scythe projects

how do i market myself using these

projects for these products

it depends i think you have to

ask yourself so one key aspect in all of

this that we talked today which we

didn't talk about

is that as a pm you're also not working

solo

you're working with a team uh because

a lot of the challenges that come is

around the team level dynamics

alignment and all of that if you're

working with yourself

it's very easy to agree with ourselves

right you know we love our own ideas

so i think when you're working by

yourself and you're working

on something i think calling it product

manager

might be a little bit too far-fetched so

maybe you can put it underside projects

or and things and you can kind of call

yourself that hey you are a product

manager for this but

you shouldn't maybe make it as the way

that you did play the role of a product

manager because a big portion of the

work you haven't done

right in terms of interacting with with

a team

but if you like in pm dojo everyone puts

a product manager at pm dojo because

we're really simulating the real world

you have a team and you have

stakeholders and you have all of that

but i think for everyone else yeah don't

lie

don't lie stay as truthful as possible

but you also know that in today's world

especially there is a whole new world of

recruitment and hiring that is going on

outside of your traditional resume which

is through

talking and building relationships it is

a little bit of a long-winded route

but don't depend on you know again

uh i'll do everything on my resume i'm

going to launch my resume and companies

are going to be coming

it's the same philosophy so you have to

kind of market yourself

um so so yeah yeah i know absolutely and

in this channel and

everywhere i i speak about this is i

always advise never lie

because even if you end up having the

interview thanks to those lies

you're gonna get caught in the interview

and a lot of bad things can happen

from of course not getting the offer but

also being banned even from the company

because of that type of behavior so

definitely don't lie

but put these projects in your site

projects when you talk to people

share your experience share your

learnings as an aspiring pm

uh but if you didn't do the work of

product manager just don't put it in

your title

but like boski mentioned and i think

it's our favorite

word in the entire product management

universe it depends

it depends it really depends and you

know titles are not the main thing

though right

like it's about this i think good hiring

managers will see it

right so if you're able to talk about

that which is why it is so important

to not rely on your resume and ats

systems all of the time

so if you can talk to hiring managers do

casual informational chats you can talk

about those experiences and find

every possible venue to stand out

absolutely

and i have two more questions for you

today okay

one is any final advice for

aspiring pms out there about anything

any advice any advice uh

believe in yourself right it starts with

that

don't follow the typical crowd these

days everyone wants to become a product

manager just like a few years ago

everyone wanted to become a management

consultant it was one of those big

fights

so spend some time to reflect on your

why

for product management or any kind of

product role

um right that reflection is really

important because

one you know you're going to be asked

that question in the interview

and you don't want to give answers like

how i used to do it for years

which is i come from a tech background

i'm going to be great with devs

oh now i've done my mba i'm going to be

great with the business stakeholders

i love working with customers uh you

know these are such

generic answers that when i used to

answer it that way i thought

of course i put in a little bit more

color to it i thought that there were

really

good answers until i switched my seats

and sat on the other side of the table

hearing similar answers and it was so

mundane and boring

so if you want to differentiate yourself

again thinking like a product manager

who who is your target user your target

users are companies you're hiring

managers recruiters

what do they need what are they paid

points you've got to change your story

right so

and for that you want to really know

your why what is that why

second piece of advice i would say would

be

we all have gaps tech is evolving every

day

the role of product evolves a lot

is evolving and so we will always have

gaps and so you know if you were to kind

of

take a stock on where your gaps are

and then look at some of the roles that

interest you and then do some sort of a

kind of a reflection exercise on how big

broad deep wide those gaps are

and what are some of the smallest

experiments i can do

in order to validate if those gaps exist

how can i fill those gaps so a little

bit of reflection

is something that i would definitely

request all aspiring pms

um to undertake um third one would be

around imposter syndrome i don't think

we can ever not talk about imposter

syndrome

i think my take on imposter syndrome is

kind of a little bit different

everyone kind of talks about how you

need to manage it how you need to solve

it how you need to deal with it

and my thing is i don't think we need to

deal with it

um impasto syndrome is very real and

human

uh it always existed uh i obviously

didn't call it imposter syndrome back

when

i was dealing with it i think even you

it's kind of just gotten a lot of

traction and marketing all this

marketing language has come up recently

because of the awareness

but know that it's so human and it is

very natural feeling

that we get whenever we are in this

situation

where we've never done it right and so

if we didn't have this so-called

imposter syndrome we would basically

become these

cocky jerks that no one would want to

work

so it is that threshold that switch that

actually prevents us from turning into

those overconfident jerks

and so just embrace that feeling is what

i say it's not easy

um i think for me my natural reaction is

i get into that

but then when my rational brain kicks in

i'm like okay

you know it's an opportunity where i

don't know so i need to figure out how i

need to kind of

overcome that um so i think that is

something that i would like to share

and don't try to kind of manage and

solve it right it is something that's

natural

it's just like someone telling you find

a way so that

you're not gonna be so happy or find a

way that you're not gonna laugh so much

or find a way they're not gonna cry so

much it's just a natural feeling

uh what else um

oh there's so so many things connect

connect with the right people

talk take time hiring like i

heard one of our hiring managers say

hiring is very

much a relationship building activity

uh it is not transactional uh for most

of us

and so get to know people uh

relationship is also a two-way street

don't just ask for can you give me a job

or can you

make can you connect me with your

network i do get those messages

uh you know try to kind of know the

person that you're reaching out to

and and see if you can help them

they would probably want to help you

back as well right

absolutely all of that makes perfect

sense thank you for sharing that

the last question that i have for you

today is where can people find more

about you and pm dojo how can they learn

more from you

um absolutely so i am i'm really active

on linkedin

um i really like my linkedin community

so you can definitely find me on

linkedin

uh both me as well as pm dojo if you're

interested to learn about pm dojo what

it is

you can go to pmdojo.me

and yes you can check out the product

accelerator our next cohort is starting

in august and spots are filling up so if

you're interested

definitely you can go to the website

diego i'm not sure if you can maybe

share that

uh in the yeah don't worry every all the

links to

to find boss key and find tm dojo will

be in the description below

awesome and yeah if you're reaching out

to me on linkedin please put in a

message

and then i will i can definitely

guarantee you that i'm going to connect

with you

sometimes if i don't get messages i kind

of put that at the bottom of my to-do

list

and the motherhood aspect comes into my

life and then

i forget about product managers that i

think about my six and a half year old

so if you put a message i'm going to do

my best to get back to you

this was absolutely amazing thank you so

much for being with us today

thank you diego this was really really a

lot of fun and thank you so much for

having me

thank you and for everybody watching

thank you so much and we'll see you next

time

you