A Conversation with the Police - Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man Ep. 9
Summary
TLDRIn an episode of 'Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man,' the host engages in a candid dialogue with police officers from Petaluma PD, addressing the tension between law enforcement and the black community. They discuss the impact of high-profile cases, officer accountability, and the emotional toll of their job. The conversation also covers the challenges of racial bias, the meaning of 'defund the police,' and the desire for positive interactions to build trust and understanding within communities.
Takeaways
- 🤝 The importance of dialogue: The script emphasizes the necessity of open conversations between police officers and the black community to foster understanding and empathy.
- 👮♂️ Police accountability: The discussion highlights the need for accountability within the police force, especially when mistakes or misconduct occur.
- 👥 Proximity breeds care: The script suggests that a lack of proximity between different racial groups can lead to fear and a lack of empathy, emphasizing the importance of community engagement.
- 🏠 Personal interactions: It is noted that personal interactions with black people are infrequent among some officers, indicating a need for more personal connections to build understanding.
- 📺 Media portrayal: The script acknowledges the media's role in shaping perceptions, with negative incidents receiving more attention than positive police-community interactions.
- 🚔 Perception of police: The conversation reveals that the public's perception of police officers, especially in incidents involving black individuals, can be heavily scrutinized and influence community trust.
- 💔 Emotional impact: The script discusses the emotional and psychological toll on officers involved in life-or-death situations on the job.
- 🛡️ Defunding the police: The term 'defund the police' is explored, with some officers expressing that it could mean reallocating resources to better address societal issues like mental health.
- 🌈 Acknowledging systemic issues: The conversation recognizes the existence of systemic racism and the role of police in addressing it, rather than ignoring or exacerbating it.
- 🔄 Changing narratives: The script suggests that changing the narrative around police interactions with the black community requires individual and societal efforts to build positive relationships.
Q & A
What is the main theme of the 'Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man' episode discussed in the transcript?
-The main theme is the interaction between white police officers and black people, exploring issues of racial tension, accountability, and the perception of police in the community.
Why did the host of the show feel it was important to have the Petaluma Police Department join the conversation?
-The host believed in the importance of addressing the lack of proximity and communication between people of different racial backgrounds to foster care and empathy, and reduce fear and misunderstanding.
How did the police officers in the conversation respond to the question about having black people over for dinner?
-One officer admitted that he couldn't recall the last time he had black people over for dinner, indicating a lack of personal interaction that could contribute to racial misunderstandings.
What does the phrase 'proximity breeds care and distance breeds fear' imply in the context of the conversation?
-It suggests that close interactions between different racial groups can lead to understanding and empathy, while a lack of such interactions can result in fear and mistrust.
How did the officers in the conversation feel about the accountability within the police force?
-The officers acknowledged that there are issues with officer accountability in the country, with one officer mentioning that punishment for officers doesn't necessarily match the crime.
What was the emotional impact on the officers when they saw the video of George Floyd's death?
-The officers felt sick and burdened, knowing they are part of a system that is now under scrutiny and facing public backlash.
How do the officers in the conversation view the concept of 'defunding the police'?
-The officers expressed that 'defunding the police' could mean reallocating some responsibilities to other professionals, such as social workers, which they would support if it could improve the system.
What challenges do the officers face when dealing with the public's perception of police actions, especially with black suspects?
-Officers are aware that their actions with black suspects are under heightened scrutiny and can influence public perception, which adds pressure to their jobs and requires them to be more mindful of their approach.
How did the retired officer feel about his decision to leave the police force?
-The retired officer felt relieved and experienced an improvement in his mental health, such as being able to sleep better and return to the gym.
What role does the media play in shaping public perception of police interactions with the community, according to the conversation?
-The media tends to focus on negative incidents, which can overshadow the majority of positive interactions between police and the community, creating a skewed perception.
What message would the officers like to convey to black children who might fear the police?
-The officers want black children to know that they are there to help and protect them, and they aim to be seen as positive role models in the community.
Outlines
🤝 Initiating Dialogue on Police-Community Relations
The video script opens with an introduction to a series of 'uncomfortable conversations' focusing on the relationship between white police officers and black people in America. The host, a black man, expresses his eagerness and anxiety about engaging with the Petaluma Police Department for the first time. The conversation is set against the backdrop of recent high-profile incidents involving police violence. The participants, including police officers Ryan, Brendan, Garrett, and John, discuss their initial reactions to such incidents and the importance of proximity and empathy in reducing fear and misunderstanding between different racial groups.
🚔 Police Officers' Personal Perspectives on Accountability and Justice
In this segment, the conversation delves into the personal experiences and perspectives of the police officers involved. They discuss the emotional and psychological impact of witnessing or being involved in life-or-death situations on the job. The dialogue explores the topic of accountability within the police force, with Ryan acknowledging that while there are issues nationally, decisive and equal punishment is necessary for justice. The officers also share their thoughts on the challenges of recovering from traumatic incidents and the potential desensitization that can occur over time.
🏠 The Impact of Racial Tensions on Policing and Community Trust
The script continues with a discussion on the impact of racial tensions on the work of police officers. Brendan and John, both officers, share their insights on how societal perceptions and the media influence public trust in the police. They address the complexities of dealing with racial bias and the pressure to be 'perfect' in their roles. The conversation highlights the importance of communication and the need for police officers to adapt their approach based on the situation, especially when dealing with black suspects.
🌐 Public Perception and the Debate on Defunding the Police
This paragraph addresses the public's perception of the 'defund the police' movement and the officers' reactions to it. The officers express their initial feelings of hurt and abandonment, but also their willingness to understand and engage with the idea of reallocating resources to address societal issues more effectively. The dialogue emphasizes the need for better communication and a deeper understanding of the community's needs and expectations from law enforcement.
👮♂️ Rebuilding Trust and the Role of Police in Society
The final paragraph of the script wraps up the conversation by reflecting on the importance of dialogue and understanding in rebuilding trust between the police and the community. The officers share their personal thoughts on the dialogue, expressing a desire for more open conversations and a recognition of the need for change. The host concludes by emphasizing the role of police officers, black men and women, and all members of society in working towards racial reconciliation and a better world.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Uncomfortable Conversations
💡Proximity and Care
💡Accountability
💡Justice
💡Defund the Police
💡Racial Tension
💡Perception
💡Desensitization
💡Community
💡Dialogue
💡Humanization
Highlights
The podcast episode focuses on the interactions between police officers and black people, aiming to foster understanding and prevent further dissension.
The host, a black man, expresses eagerness and anxiety to engage with the Petaluma Police Department for the first time.
The conversation acknowledges the lack of notorious incidents in Petaluma, highlighting the importance of proactive dialogue.
The panel includes police officers from various ranks, showcasing a diverse range of perspectives within the police force.
The discussion emphasizes the importance of proximity between different racial groups to foster care and reduce fear.
Officers admit to feeling sick and the public's negative perception following incidents like George Floyd's death.
The conversation explores the issue of accountability within the police force and whether officers are held responsible for their actions.
Justice in police-related incidents is discussed, with a call for equal punishment regardless of the officer's status.
The emotional and psychological impact of life-or-death situations on officers is acknowledged.
Retired officers share their experiences and the relief felt upon leaving the force, highlighting the stress of the job.
The dialogue addresses the pressure officers feel to be perfect and the public's unrealistic expectations.
Officers discuss the challenges of approaching black suspects and the public's different perception compared to white suspects.
The conversation touches on the concept of 'defunding the police' and what it means to different people.
Officers express their desire to be part of the solution and to be seen as helpers rather than threats in the community.
The dialogue concludes with a call for more conversations and understanding between police officers and the community.
Transcripts
[Music]
good
we good
oh man
what's happening all is good oh good
gentlemen gentlemen gentlemen
[Music]
welcome to another episode of
uncomfortable conversations with a black
man
so much of the dissension in our world
so much of the dissension in america
is based around the interaction between
police officers white police officers
and black people whether george floyd
brianna taylor
jacob blake jonathan price and so
so many more so i a black man am eager
yet anxious to be joined by the petaluma
police department for the first time
with the live audience of lieutenants
officers and administration now out of
an abundance of caution we have all been
covet tested
within the past 48 hours i know so many
of you are wondering emmanuel why
petaluma
there isn't a notorious black
violence with police white police
officers
and to that i simply submit we weren't
talking about kenosha until
after jacob blake was shot we weren't
talking about
wolf city texas until after jonathan
price lost his life
to a man in uniform i fervently believe
that an ounce of prevention
is better than a pound of cure so that's
why i'm here joining me on stage
is uh ryan mcgreevy brendan mcgovern
garrett glaviano and john antonio
gentlemen
how are you great thanks for having us
of course of course now let's get
uncomfortable ryan when was the last
time you had
black people over at your house for
dinner
well before kovid i'll tell you that
um i don't know i can't i couldn't tell
you
yeah yeah uh and i'd ask you the same
question well like when was the last
time
you sat down just to have a conversation
uh with a group of black people garrett
i can be honest with you i don't know
that i've ever had a conversation with a
group of black people
yeah i would say that proximity breeds
care and distance breeds fear proximity
breeds care and distance breeds fear
and i think one of the issues in our
society is
there's not enough proximity between
people who don't
look like each other and because there's
not enough proximity
there's a lack of care or lack of
empathy
and there is a heightened amount of fear
when
you see the things occurring in our
worlds like
what happened with george floyd a black
man
losing his life to these white police
officers
when you first saw that video what went
through your mind
i mean i felt sick it's difficult to
have to show up and know that we get
paid to do this and then having to see
what people see on tv
and they don't necessarily see uh see
the person they just see the uniform and
they associate that with us so every
time
i see something like that i know that
i'm about to get bombarded by phone
calls and text messages about
why did this happen what's going on ryan
let me go to you is there enough
accountability
in the police force when mistakes happen
are they held responsible
that's tough to answer from a national
standpoint i mean if you look at
george floyd incident that officer was
terminated
arrested charged like immediately which
i think is appropriate
right so in that regard obviously it's a
tragic incident and you hope that that
doesn't happen
i would say just generally speaking yeah
there probably is some
issues with officer accountability
throughout the country
what does justice look like to you in
these situations
i think justice looks like
decisive and
equal punishment
the issue at hand i feel like is that
the
the punishment for officers doesn't
necessarily match the crime
if you are caught in in a doctor's
office and there's malpractice and
someone dies
don't be disbarred there's not like oh
well i gotta i need to know this i need
to know that
it doesn't matter it doesn't fit whereas
instantly especially right now when we
see
so many things going on with excessive
force over black people we're instantly
like
oh look at his criminal history well he
didn't graduate from college
well he lied back in seventh grade it
instantly goes to character defamation
let's see if we can protect the people
in the badge so
justice for me just looks like a
punishment that
fits the crime because there's always
that phrase who's going to police the
police
and right now the answer has been no one
brendan when you see a life or death
situation occurred a death situation
occurred on the job
how hard is that to recover from whether
it's just your knowledge of someone who
may have been
involved or if you've personally been
involved how hard is that to recover
from
emotionally psychologically it is
incredibly difficult to recover from
um even from that standpoint being i've
been doing this for 13 years i've been
in situations not
obviously identical to that but similar
uh that's never
ever going to leave their mind it's
going to change the outcome of
everything they do from this point on
i mean there are situations where we'll
arrest people and they'll die later and
you still
that's your it's your attachment you you
brought them to this point and from my
own personal incidents i don't
it's changed me uh for the duration of
my life i don't ever see it
going back john you retired from the
police force
do you think that you can ever become
desensitized to
death wearing a badge i've thought about
this
and i think you can you feel like you're
in control when you're a police officer
but then you don't have control that's
when it really affects you and obviously
kids
before i had kids i don't think i would
have been affected as bad
but uh no i mean we're human we don't
change and get in our locker at night
and sleep there and then
jump out you know a lot of people think
that you know
so um brendan would you say that
there is a difference especially in a
city like petaluma which is less than
one percent black
in how you or those you know
approach a situation when it is a black
suspect versus a white suspect yes
again we deal with white suspects
frequently we deal with black suspects
frequently as well but
when i show up and i do hear say black
male adult a part of me knows that
the public's perception of what is about
to take place
is going to be much different than if if
he got described
you know saying stealing a beer from a
7-eleven as opposed to you stealing a
beer from a 7-eleven i already know
that twice as many eyes are going to be
on me when i contact you as opposed to
him so does that change how you treat
the situation
because you know that it is a more
delicate situation
yes i have you know the rules that i go
by my morals my ethics it's not going to
change the way that i necessarily talk
to you or
order you around i might choose my words
differently i might choose the way that
i
handle myself or approach you
differently because i don't want to seem
like the
you know the the giant white officer
trying to
you know force myself upon the blackmail
suspect that the public wants to see
because we film ourselves obviously
but i know that someone's going to be
filming the interaction so i'm going to
be
choosing the way i react differently
brendan let me ask you how do you
deal with the pressure of knowing you
have to be perfect
they want us to be perfect i don't
necessarily see
that we can show up and be perfect we
get that domestic violence call we know
that there's a man and a woman
and then we show up and you know the
woman's not wearing clothes and the man
is you know holding a baseball bat we
have to make too many decisions for me
to be able to say that everything we do
will be the perfect way that we do it
john you coach high school football now
yes
but now that you don't have to don the
uniform on a daily basis
do you feel a weight lifted off your
life 100
when i finally was done i was so like
relieved i actually started sleeping
again
um started going to the gym again i mean
i'm so glad to be out of it and i feel
bad because
i feel like i should still be there with
the with your teammates you know and
it's like
going down getting injured in a game and
and not being able to help your
teammates but um
i'm happy about about being out of it
yeah nick if i may
ask you from the audience you are a
traffic officer
is there anything that you would want to
communicate
or feel the need to communicate based
off the fact that racial tension does in
fact exist
currently in america we do things
systematically we do things the same way
every time because it's repeatable and
we can testify to it
so to answer your question no we we
don't approach that differently
or at least the people that i supervise
do not approach that differently but
maybe we should
i've dealt with situations i'm sure
others in the room can can speak to this
as well as we show up on scene with a
person of color
and we're immediately hit with you're
only stopping me because
i'm ex right um and it becomes a barrier
to communication because we may be there
for
you know a legitimate purpose how do we
disarm that how do we get around that
it's a really good question um when you
step onto the scene
as as a black man obviously i'm just
gonna be upset that i'm being stopped in
the first place
but i think it's just a matter of
maintaining the composure maintaining
the calm and continuing to
assert exactly why it is that you are
there
if we could do a better job of disarming
then we wouldn't have to worry about
discharging and
i think that's where we lack there's a
communication
barrier and i always say that's why i'm
so eager to talk to y'all from
petaluma if you don't grow up around
something then you're not really going
to know how to communicate with that
thing and it's not the same
communicating with a white cultured
person versus a black cultured person is
different
i would submit that ninety percent of
black people in the last five months
have gone through a tragic experience
we all have in witnessing the murder of
george floyd
but it is different for black people
because they can literally
see themselves as that person
you can't fix a problem you don't know
exist
i'm letting you know it exists so now
let's just all work to fix it
i have a question do police officers
make you nervous yes
now what if it was a black police
officer nah
it's different so black people often
navigate white spaces as a foreigner
as i sit in this room i'm one of three
black people in here
you sit in this room and you're one of
35 white people in here
it's natural for you yeah you're home
whenever i walk into a room a restaurant
church anywhere i'm looking for black
people
just in case something pops off it's
like okay we're here me and you like
we're together
because so many black people in life
have probably gone through some sort of
struggle
there's an instant connection that makes
you relax a little bit
a little bit more or yeah he's still
dealing with a cop so you're
nervous naturally but it's it's if i can
now be honest
i see he's black before i see he's a cop
right
i see you all are cops first
nick i'll go back to you how do you feel
when you hear the phrase
black lives matter black lives do matter
we need to pay attention to some of the
injustices that have happened
over you know the last hundred years and
beyond
where black lives matter becomes
confusing
is when it becomes very divisive right
now
in the midst of a political election
there's questions on whether black lives
matter is a
social movement or is it a campaign
and i think when we pass the november
elections
i think we need to focus on continuing
it as a movement
so we can create a successful outcome
because if it ends on the election
then it was just a campaign you have
something i know yeah i mean uh
so the blue lives matter flag right the
blue line either on a flag or just black
blue black
um has taken on kind of a life of its
own
politically currently it's obviously
flying on on one side of the political
boundary as opposed to the other so
when you see that what do you see
i feel frustrated
because i feel as though the agenda is
being moved
here's what i mean by that to say any
life matters is to assert
that we thought that life didn't matter
so to say that blue lives matter were to
then assert that historically
we've acted as though cops lives don't
matter
whereas black lives matter historically
we have literally acted as though black
lives don't matter
all men are created equal 17 late 1700s
we don that phrase they weren't talking
about black men
weren't talking about black women
weren't talking about women but we said
all men are created equal
so now it's like wait a second just in
case they're not talking about us this
time let's make sure we specify
that black lives matter ryan earlier you
mentioned
preparation and you talked about funding
and you talked about
preparing as a unit to step onto the
scene
what do you feel when you hear the
phrase defund the police
uh i think it means different things to
different people
people who feel that who want to
literally take some of the
responsibility we have as police
officers and move it to somebody else
i'll be first in line to sign up for
that like go ahead that's great that's a
great idea so we get a lot of calls
with people who have mental health
crisis who's going to go to those calls
if you have somebody that is able and
willing to go to them
that's great the problem is it's not
black and white where it's like oh these
are just mental health calls
if you have a mental health call with
somebody and they have a knife
we the social worker is not going to go
once we make the scene safe
then we call them and say hey uh i got
you know so-and-so down here can you
come down here and talk to them and
um and kind of work through their their
issues but defund the police doesn't
upset you
when you hear it abolish the police
upsets me but defunding us i mean
if other people can handle some of these
calls then that's fine and again
if you're telling me there's a way we
could somebody else can handle some of
this stuff
i'm all for it that's interesting i
hadn't heard it like that before manuel
for a long time i didn't know how to
process it i didn't know how to take it
when i hear the defunding i
feel like some of our communities are
abandoning us prior to may 2020 and
george floyd
uh we're in the midst of a pandemic we
were doing the best we can for our
community people were showing up the
station bringing us treats
we were heroes after that they want to
defund us it hurts
why does it hurt because i feel like for
for 15 years
we've made and i can speak to you know
all my partners in the room
we've made a lot of sacrifices to be a
part of the community to try to help
people
and it felt like people were turning
their backs on us we're not perfect
but i don't think we're at a point where
we can just abandon what we've built
we want to be a part of the solution we
want we understand that relationships
are important
and inherently it's about trust nick can
you speak to that because you
are actively in the field how it makes
you feel knowing you're sacrificing
every day in the field
but then you might come home and see on
the news or see on social media
that defund the police is being chanted
around the world how does that make you
feel
so my initial response was visceral and
it made me upset
moving forward looking into what
actually defunding the police
is defunding the police is not
abolishing the police or getting rid of
the police it's
restructuring policing in america two
weeks ago
i was doing traffic control for a
women's rally
protest in march in the city of petaluma
many of the occupants of the rally had
signs defund the police
the interesting thing with our community
is while they're holding signs
chanting defund the police they're
walking over and saying thank you for
your services
and thank you for being out here that's
kind of a paradigm shift
and threw me for a loop when somebody is
coming and thanking me
while they're holding a sign that i'm
supposed to be offended by
again it comes down to communication and
dialogue
and creating that opportunity but it's
not a scary term anymore
now on a more broad scale if you could
communicate a more public message to
black children who live in fear of the
police
what would you brandon mcgovern say
that's incredibly difficult for me to
say because all all communities are
different but from a
umbrella standpoint um we're here for
you
right look at it look we we look at us
like a teacher look at us like a
counselor like we want to be the person
that you
you call the person that we show up you
run to us it's like we're not there to
be
mean we're there because we're here to
help and uh i want all of the kids to
know i mean it's a
black kids in particular pertaining to
this is like we're we're there we're
here to help you and
i'm i'm sorry that this is currently
what you see us as
you think we'll ever get to that point
where black children look to cops is
helpers as opposed to as is the enemy
in my lifetime no it has come in waves
and it has disappeared
and now it's back right it hides and it
only takes a george floyd or something
else to to bring it back
i don't know how we can get rid of it
how do we abolish racism how do we
abolish
you know violent police tendencies it's
i i don't know
garrett you seem like more of an
optimist how would you answer that
question do you think we can ever
get rid of the notion that
black children are growing up in america
viewing police officers
as threats and as the enemy i do you
know and
i am an optimist we're completely
bombarded in the media with some of
these
these incidents that are happening are
terrible but that's not the overwhelming
majority of the police contacts that we
have throughout the community for
example
last year we had 60 000 calls for
service 2000 arrests and only 48 of them
resulted in a use of force
so what the reality is is that we're
having a lot of positive interactions
with people
every day it's just how do we portray
that how do we get it out there to let
people know that that is in fact the
case
there is going to be unfortunate
incidents i don't think we're going to
get away from that it's just how we deal
with those when they come up
that's good i think people underestimate
the fact of just because you all are in
uniform does not mean that y'all are not
human
yes y'all are held to a higher standard
because you all are the front-facing
aspects of the government but you all
are not exempt
you brought up a question earlier about
the blackhead
running up to the white police officer
right i want to be the person that
somebody comes running up to
high fives looks forward to guidance and
so forth
how does a white officer in america
make that bridge that gap so that a
black
juvenile will look to them as a role
model as a person that
is positive in the community that's a
really good question
i think first you do it on an individual
level that has to permeate society
there's a reason whenever you see a cop
playing a sport with somebody in the
neighborhood the video goes viral
because it's like a far-fetched idea bad
news sales
way better than good news we don't do a
good enough job
collectively as a country as letting the
good news resonate so
you do it on an individual level until
it be
begins to become a societal thing
because all it takes is one george floyd
situation
to undermine the entire situation john
what would you say
this dialogue has done for you
i think it's opened up a different
perspective
of maybe what certain people might feel
or the way they look at
police officers really i think that they
will see that we're human
but i also think that it's opened our
eyes to say hey look
um there is this major problem in this
country i think back about colin
kaepernick
taking a knee and how when that started
i was i was pissed i was like are you
kidding me right here like
this felt like a shot to us and then as
things progressed and you started seeing
things
in the country it wasn't until i just
watched a movie it's called chicago
seven i don't know if you've seen it
that it clicked in my mind that that's
not a shot at me
that's a shot at the system
brennan what would you say the
conversation is done for you the
dialogue
i wish we could have this conversation
with anybody who wants to and i hope
that
obviously in this venue that people see
it and they realize that hey if they
want to come talk to us they can
we can't be part of the solution if
we're part of the problem so you
bringing us on here
has at least you know opened the door
garrett how would you say it's uh if it
all opened your eyes yeah i think
gaining some situational awareness and
when you
talk about how we're perceived by black
people when we show up on scene
having an understanding of the
difference there is very important
can can lead us to removing some
barriers to communication which
ultimately
we want to have gentlemen all i have to
say is thank you
thank you all for your service thank you
for the dialogue thank you for the
conversation thank you all
men and women alike for for listening i
think
that this is what we need more of and
thank you all for tuning in to another
episode of uncomfortable conversations
with the black man if we are going to
achieve
racial reconciliation in our world it
starts with our police officers
it starts with our black men and women
it starts with white people black people
having conversations
and coming together for the betterment
of the world around us
we'll see you next time
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