The Narcissism Doctor: "1 In 6 People Are Narcissists!" How To Spot Them & Can They Change?
Summary
TLDRIn this insightful discussion, Dr. Romany Jaasa, a renowned clinical psychologist and expert on narcissism, dives deep into the complexities of narcissistic personalities. Exploring the spectrum of narcissism, from its benign manifestations in social media influencers to its dangerous forms in cult leaders, Dr. Jaasa illuminates the traits that define this condition, such as lack of empathy, entitlement, and manipulative behaviors. She emphasizes the significant impact of narcissism on relationships, highlighting patterns of gaslighting, manipulation, and the struggle for victims to recognize and escape these toxic dynamics. Additionally, Dr. Jaasa discusses the prevalence of narcissism in leadership and its societal implications, stressing the importance of awareness and self-protection strategies for those affected.
Takeaways
- 😀 Narcissism exists on a spectrum, from mild, superficial behavior to severe, like cult leadership, characterized by low empathy and manipulative tendencies.
- 📚 Dr. Romani, a licensed clinical psychologist, emphasizes the importance of recognizing narcissism early to prevent its negative impact on personal development and relationships.
- ❤️ Narcissistic relationships often start strong with charm and charisma but eventually lead to manipulation, gaslighting, and psychological harm.
- 🏢 In the workplace, narcissism manifests through a lack of appreciation, unpredictability, and a psychologically unsafe environment.
- 🌍 When dealing with narcissistic leaders, it may be strategically beneficial to have a leader who understands narcissism, though not necessarily to have a narcissist in charge.
- 🤔 Identifying personal narcissism is challenging due to self-perception biases; self-aware narcissists are rare.
- 🛠️ Recovery from narcissistic abuse involves understanding its dynamics, practicing radical acceptance, and fostering healthy social connections.
- 🚫 Narcissistic Kryptonite includes disengagement from their manipulations and maintaining authenticity in the face of their tactics.
- 🎭 The allure of narcissists in leadership and fame is driven by their confidence and charisma, making them attractive despite their harmful traits.
- 👥 Everyone can exhibit narcissistic traits occasionally, but awareness and adjustment of these behaviors can lead to personal improvement and better relationships.
Q & A
What is the spectrum of narcissism as described by Dr. Romany Jaasa?
-Narcissism is described as existing on a spectrum, with the lowest end being likened to 'Instagram saviors' and the severe end comparable to a cult leader. It encompasses a range of behaviors from low empathy and dominance to manipulation and quick anger.
How does narcissism impact relationships according to Dr. Romany Jaasa?
-Narcissistic relationships often start strong, with charm and charisma, but eventually devolve into dismissiveness, manipulation, and gaslighting. The partner may be publicly praised while being psychologically destroyed in private.
How can you identify if your boss is a narcissist?
-Signs your boss might be a narcissist include feeling undervalued, experiencing an unpredictable workplace, feeling the environment is psychologically unsafe, and noticing that the boss takes credit for others' work or is dismissive of others' contributions.
Can narcissism be cured according to Dr. Romany Jaasa?
-Dr. Jaasa believes it's challenging to cure narcissism because it involves changing a person's personality. While narcissists can make minor changes, these are often insufficient for the people affected by their behavior.
What are some examples of the cost of narcissism on someone's life as observed by Dr. Romany Jaasa?
-The cost includes individuals doubting their self-worth, giving up on their education or career paths, and entering harmful relationships that mirror the neglect they faced from narcissistic individuals.
How prevalent is narcissism according to Dr. Romany Jaasa?
-Dr. Jaasa estimates that about one in six people may exhibit noticeable narcissistic personality traits, with higher prevalence in major metropolitan areas or certain industries.
Is narcissism gender-specific?
-Narcissism is not gender-specific. Both men and women can exhibit narcissistic traits, although certain types of narcissism, like grandiose narcissism, are more common in men.
How does social media influence narcissism?
-Social media acts as an amplifier for narcissistic behavior by providing a platform for validation and admiration. However, it does not necessarily create narcissism; rather, it can exacerbate existing narcissistic tendencies.
What are the four types of narcissism mentioned by Dr. Romany Jaasa?
-The four types include grandiose, vulnerable, malignant, and communal narcissism, each with distinct traits ranging from overt arrogance and entitlement to victimhood and manipulativeness.
How can one protect themselves if they cannot exit a relationship with a narcissist?
-Dr. Jaasa suggests practicing radical acceptance of the narcissist's unchangeable nature, setting realistic expectations, and finding social support from empathetic and respectful individuals.
Outlines
🔍 Understanding Narcissism Spectrum
This section introduces Dr. Romany Jaasa, a renowned expert on narcissism, and explains that narcissism exists on a spectrum, from mild instances seen in social media personalities to severe cases like cult leaders. It emphasizes the lack of empathy, dominance, and anger issues as key characteristics of severe narcissism. The discussion extends to the impact of narcissism on relationships, highlighting the initial charm and eventual manipulation, gaslighting, and psychological harm inflicted by narcissists. It also touches on narcissism in professional settings, underscoring the emotional drain and unpredictability employees might feel under a narcissistic boss.
🎓 Narcissism's Academic Perspective
In this segment, Dr. Jaasa elaborates on her academic background in Clinical and Health Psychology, leading to her interest in the intersection of personality, mental health, and physical health. She delves into the complexity of studying personality, particularly narcissism, due to its nuanced and often intangible nature. The discussion further explores the day-to-day reality of helping victims of narcissistic abuse, underscoring the gratification and challenges involved in therapeutic practices aimed at healing and empowerment.
🔄 The Cycle of Narcissistic Abuse
This paragraph discusses the repetitive cycle of abuse and manipulation in narcissistic relationships. Dr. Jaasa talks about the various ways narcissists harm their victims, from undermining their self-belief to trapping them in unhealthy patterns of dependency. She emphasizes the deep psychological impact and the difficulty victims have in breaking free, often due to a distorted sense of loyalty or love. The conversation shifts to the misconceptions surrounding narcissism, particularly its association with certain behaviors and the difficulty in recognizing it within oneself or close relationships.
🧠 Narcissism's Psychological Underpinnings
Dr. Jaasa unpacks the complex psychological framework of narcissism, differentiating between grandiose and vulnerable narcissism, and their manifestations in behavior. She explains the difficulty in curing narcissism due to its deep-rooted nature in personality and the challenges in bringing about significant change in narcissists' behaviors. The narrative then shifts to societal perceptions of narcissism, particularly gender biases and misunderstandings that obscure the reality of narcissistic tendencies across different individuals.
🌍 Narcissism in the Larger Context
This segment explores the broader implications of narcissism, from personal relationships to global leadership. Dr. Jaasa addresses the pervasive impact of narcissism, advocating for a more nuanced understanding and strategic responses to narcissistic behaviors in various domains. The discussion also highlights the alarming prevalence of narcissism and its insidious influence on society, emphasizing the need for awareness and proactive measures to mitigate its effects.
🤔 Reflecting on Personal Experiences with Narcissism
In this concluding section, Dr. Jaasa reflects on her personal encounters with narcissism, both professionally and personally. She shares insights from her journey of understanding and combating narcissism, underscoring the importance of resilience, knowledge, and self-care in dealing with narcissistic individuals. The narrative closes with a call to action for individuals and society to recognize, address, and heal from the scars of narcissistic abuse, fostering a healthier, more empathetic world.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Narcissism
💡Gaslighting
💡Empathy
💡Trauma Bonding
💡Projection
💡Validation
💡Entitlement
💡Manipulation
💡Radical Acceptance
💡Empathic Individuals
Highlights
Dr. Romani Jaasa, a licensed clinical psychologist, identifies narcissism on a spectrum from Instagram saviors to cult leaders.
Narcissistic relationships start strong with charm and charisma but evolve into dismissiveness, manipulation, and gaslighting.
Workplace narcissism can manifest as a lack of feeling valued, unpredictable environments, and psychological unsafety.
Narcissism in world leaders is discussed, questioning whether leaders should also be narcissists to effectively counter adversaries.
Self-aware narcissists exist and may see their narcissism as a superpower, yet are unlikely to change fundamentally.
Narcissistic relationships are marked by rumination, regret, and euphoric recall, making it challenging for victims to leave.
Gaslighting, a form of emotional abuse, is a common tactic used by narcissists to destabilize and control their victims.
Narcissistic bosses create toxic work environments, making documentation and seeking healthy social connections critical for employees.
Despite the challenges, recovery and healing from narcissistic abuse are possible with awareness, education, and support.
Narcissists' craving for admiration and validation makes them prone to performative love and potentially manipulative in relationships.
Projection is a common defense mechanism used by narcissists to deflect their insecurities onto others.
Authenticity can act as a form of 'Kryptonite' to narcissists, as they are threatened by genuine self-expression.
A significant percentage of famous individuals and world leaders may display narcissistic traits due to the nature of fame and power.
The importance of radical acceptance and setting realistic expectations in managing relationships with narcissists.
The conversation emphasizes the critical need for education on narcissism within diplomacy and leadership to prevent harm.
Transcripts
we believe one in six people are
narcissistic and exposure can become a
life or death situation but the key step
to identify narcissism is Dr Romney
jaasa licensed clinical psychologist the
world's leading expert on narcissism all
narcissism is on a spectrum at the
lowest ends it's Instagram saviors but
the severe end of the spectrum you're
talking about a cult leader they have
low empathy they will dominate people
they have to get the last word they get
angry very quickly and that's just the
top of the
iceberg what about the impacts of
narcissism on relationships narcissistic
people they can go out in the world and
they're able to be charming and
charismatic and narcissistic
relationships start strong they want to
get you quick and then it becomes
dismissiveness manipulation gaslighting
the world thinks this person's fantastic
a lot of people say aren't you lucky
that you're married to that guy and
behind closed doors they psychologically
destroy you narcissism in work how do I
know if my boss is a narcissist you're
going to feel it in the sense of you
don't feel seen you don't feel valued
you feel like the workplace is
unpredictable you might even feel that
it's psychologically unsafe what about
world leaders if our adversary in
another country is a narcissist would we
rather our leader be a narcissist as
well that's a fantastic question and I
think so the big question how do you
know if you are a narcissist and can you
cure narcissism so here's where we get
into some interesting Muddy
Waters it's absolutely crazy to me that
so many of you have decided to watch our
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[Music]
episode Dr Romany mhm you've committed
so much of your life and your energy to
the subject of
narcissism why does it matter oh it
matters so much because exposure to
people who have narcissistic
personalities
shapes how people's identity develops
shapes how their personality develops or
if the first time you encounter a
narcissistic person is in adulthood it
can actually sort of hijack that sense
of identity it can really steal a person
away from themselves and we I think it's
so important because we haven't given
ourselves permission I think as a
culture as a field of mental health to
identify this as a problem and allow
people to have responses in a way it's
almost viewed as sort of not being very
nice to say the narcissistic people are
not very nice it's a strange Paradox in
the world of mental health that's why I
do it because nothing more than me
wanting to return people back to their
authentic s you must have seen the cost
of narcissism can you give me some
examples of the cost that a narcissist
has had on someone's life that you've
seen oh where do I begin I'll tell you
cost is a person person who so doesn't
believe in themselves that they may give
up on their path of education and never
pursue an interest so we never got to
see the work product that that would
have created not to mention that person
actually getting to unfurl their wings
and fully be who they wanted to be as a
creative or as a professional it's the
person who knew what they wanted to be
that they had a very strong identity as
pick something and they ended up
choosing something else because they
knew the only way they could be loved
was to be what that parent demanded of
them and it was so clear to them they
wouldn't be loved unless they fully gave
in to what that parent expected of them
it's the person who was an absolutely
glorious human being lovely empathic and
warm but feel so damaged after years of
being told you're not enough you're
selfish you're greedy you're foolish
that they get into relationship after
relationship that duplic LIC Ates that
theme and don't get the real
collaborative compassionate love story
that they deserve because they don't
think they deserve it and that's just
the top of the iceberg and your academic
background your the experience that
you're drawing from what is that
experience so my my experience is in in
my academic background is I have a PhD
in Clinical Psychology and my minor is
in something called Health psychology
and so I got really interested in how
various elements of mental health and
mental illness showed up in people who
had co-occurring medical conditions so
it's a very almost like Strange point to
enter but what we do know is people
personality affects how we take care of
our health how we might engage in
behaviors that might put our health at
risk for example narcissism and
addiction have a really high overlap so
here's a case of now a personality Style
putting a person at health risk due to
using substances to regulate and then
all the things that would come of that
but it's tough to measure personality
Stephen it's really hard to meure
measure it's not one of those things
it's not like a blood test it's not even
like measuring depression frankly
depression is eminently measurable yeah
there's different variants and there's
different severity but we're very clear
diagnostically and phenomenologically
what makes depression what qualifies
personality is like the wild west and so
from a research perspective it's
something that people would often shy
away from because we couldn't get the
constructs right but I said I welcome
the challenge because I truly in my
heart believe
if we could understand and study
personality more we'd actually be
understanding all this unmeasurable
noise in the mental health research
because I thought that's probably where
it was and I think more and more of the
research is supporting that and you
spend time even today dealing with
patients who are the victim of a
narcissistic relationship or the victim
of a narcissist every week every week I
mean it's it's probably one of the if
not the most gratifying part of my my
week I'm a big believer that if you're a
mental health practitioner you practice
mental health so that's a privilege to
be able to be in that room and to work
with clients but it would be so easy
when you're dealing at a macro level
large populations going on YouTube
writing books to get distanced from what
is happening to individual people's
lives one of the tricky bits with
research is we study populations we
study samples right we study hundreds of
people what happens in the room is
something very different and you start
to recognize a how badly these
relationships harm people their schemas
of the world their schemas of themselves
and B how much potential for
intervention there is with these clients
through very very simple approaches
around education about narcissism
validation of their experience breaking
through self-blame and teaching them to
trust themselves so how many patients do
you think you've seen that have been
victims of narcissists I mean hundreds
hundreds really and I even use the word
Survivor I hate to call them victims
because I don't even think they're that
passive I mean I think that they just
weren't no one ever taught anyone this
right I give you the example when people
are in a relationship with somebody
who's living with addiction it's very
clear what they're dealing with right
you have a person they're using a
substance that's altering them that's
altering their behavior that's taking
them away from who they are person
people in relationships with addicts
will say I'm in two relationships I'm in
a relationship with a sober person and
I'm in a relationship with somebody
who's using or intoxicated or denying or
defending their use right two people and
it breaks the people in those
relationships and we're willing to call
it that the experience people have in
narcissistic relationships in a way is
no different with the added bit though
that at least with addiction people can
say I see what the behavior is I see
what the issue is addiction's a disease
and we know it's treatable narcissism
not so much and on top of that the
narcissistic person has this very
well-developed very successful
behavioral repertoire they can go out in
the world and they're able to be
charming and charismatic and confident
and smart and the center of attention
and running companies and behind closed
doors they psychologically eviscerate
the people they're with spouses Partners
family members close friends maybe
people who are below them in an
organization people where they can kind
of get away with it so the people
they're harming the world thinks this
person's fantastic at least a person
who's in a relationship with an addict
people say okay get it they're using
this is hard but for the folks in
narcissistic relationships a lot of
people say aren't you lucky that you're
married to that guy and the person's
like oh my gosh are these people out
there mind like so what do they do they
blame
themselves
okay what is
narcissism because I've heard the word
used so often but I couldn't tell you
the definition of it and I feel like I'd
butcher the definition of what it is MH
so I'm almost curious to ask you yeah
what just before I almost contaminate
you with the with what my definition is
what's your working definition what's
your working model of what narcissism is
um delusions of grandeur someone that
thinks they're like super important and
that they are better than everybody else
arrogance um and they're cruel okay all
right so I I would give you probably
like a C+ B minus if you're student in
my class I mean I I I cut students a lot
of slack back in day so I'll give you C+
B minus because you're in the
neighborhood right the grandiosity the
arrogance the the meanness but that to
me is even more sort of a manifestation
of the traits like the grandiosity the
arrogance they have variable empathy and
typically have low empathy they're
deeply entitled they truly think they're
more special than everyone else and that
the rules should apply to them very
differently they have a excessive need
for admiration and validation they're
very superficial they don't really have
the capacity for deep sustained Intimate
Relationships they're very much
referential to the world out there out
outside of them to set goals they don't
have an good internal sense of like what
matters to me what what do I want to do
they just want to do what they do again
to get that admiration and validation
there's a shallowness a real emotional
shallowness to narcissism those are the
patterns and traits we sort of see
they're very very self-centered very
preoccupied with themselves the good
parts of themselves the bad parts of
themselves it's very rare for them to
sort of lift their heads up and
genuinely notice the experience of
another person that's what narcissism is
how does it show up it shows up as
devaluation dismissiveness manipulation
gaslighting they get angry very quickly
especially when they're frustrated or
disappointed and that can show up as
overt Rage or overt anger yelling
screaming or even violence that can show
up as passive aggression with holding
and withdrawing they are they can be
they're prone to betrayal they lie they
cheat they make promises about the
future they never keep but they do that
to keep people around so they won't
leave them so it's it's part of a larger
sort of a manipulation they will
dominate people they have to get the
last word they will shift blame onto
other people they will rarely take
responsibility for their misdeeds even
when they're clearly caught in them and
if they do they'll still blame the other
person they're very neglectful and
careless and relationships that is
narcissism how can you tell the
difference between someone having a bad
day an [ __ ] and a narcissist because
some of those things there I thought on
a bad day I might do that yeah you know
um the whole collection together no but
on a bad day when I haven't slept I go
you know what I might blame someone or
whatever else what's the distinction
when a person has a bad day and we all
have bad days and on those bad days we
might look if all the if the only tape
someone had of us was of that day right
but the here's the piece when people are
not narcissistic and they have bad days
they will take accountability they will
make amends and they will change their
behavior and say I'm not doing this
again this is this is not okay why
wasn't it okay because it was none of
those people's fault you didn't get
enough sleep and whether that means we
reach deeper to be as kind as we can to
the people in some cases especially if
it's people we know or we see you may
not know the random person at the gym
but if we someone we know or work with
we step we step out of ourselves to say
the way I conducted myself yesterday
wasn't okay and I'm really sorry about
that um and so that that they're having
that experience of you taking
accountability that's where I know we're
not dealing with a narcissistic person
we're dealing with a bad day and a bad
day is just that a day it's not every
day with a narcissistic person many days
I'm not going to say all but many days
are characterized by these machinations
these manipulations and these
invalidations the person in a
relationship with a narcissistic person
feel like they're constantly on their
back foot that they can't be themselves
they can't express a need they can't
express a want they can't even express a
feeling for fear of it being shut down
so there's your so there's your not
narcissistic person what about an
[ __ ] okay I do think assholery and
narcissism are pretty they we use the
terms
interchangeably I think though that
here's here's my [ __ ] belief since
this is something it's I think the
construct validation on [ __ ] is
probably still needing to be done I
think [ __ ] tend to be pretty
consistently [ __ ] so whereas
narcissistic people can really they have
a much wider behavioral repertoire to be
absolutely Charming this is a person who
can be absolutely Charming on the golf
course with the CEO of their company
like Charming nice warm remember during
the ages of their kids and asking about
the wife and remembering that their
grandmother is sick and all this stuff
and get home forget it was his
anniversary scream at their partner why
is the house like look like this why do
I have to put up with this make those
damn kids shut up but they were Mr I
remember that your little girl's
birthday is February 6th when they were
on the golf course that is not assholery
that's narcissism can you cure
narcissism in your opinion no I don't
because I think that would imply
changing a personality which I don't
think we can
do is there any evidence have you ever
seen in your 20 years of working with
narcissists and their
survivors any sign of a narcissist
becoming a not- narcissist or non-
narcissist I've not seen them become a
not- narcissist I've be seen them make
micro changes because I measure and
monitor and make my notes in therapy so
I'll see interesting they're no longer
trying to mess with coming in 10 minutes
later and asking me to keep them for the
whole hour they are honoring the
therapeutic frame they're paying the
bill when they decide not to show up at
the last minute I see Tiny tweaks I'll
see people who'll come in and
say I screamed at my girlfriend again
last night and that wasn't cool so I was
like oh who that's Insight like I'll run
with it but here's the rub okay these
micro changes and they are micro changes
but they are changes and they're in the
right
direction that much water under under
the bridge for the family members and
partners and other people that have been
harmed they're saying you want me to
stay in this relationship because this
dude remember to say thank you once this
week I think not to me the thank you is
progress to the people in their lives
who've been harmed that one thank you is
not going to be
enough when I was looking at the subject
of narcissism and I was looking at what
people are searching around the subject
matter I could see no searches online
for is my my wife a narcissist but I saw
lots of searches for is my husband a
narcissist really yes so I
wondered is narcissism a gender specific
thing and in What proportion do you
typically see men and women being
narcissists yeah no it's not gender
specific I'm so shocked at that because
I've worked with so many men who have
narcissistic wives or female partners
and I've worked with many I've worked
with many lesbian couples I've I mean
I've worked with cases where clearly it
was a woman female identified person who
is narcissistic it is definitely not
limited to men so here's what we know
grandiose narcissism much more common in
men malignant narcissism much more
common in men but there's a form of
narcissism called vulnerable
narcissism vulnerable narcissism isn't
so much of the showy charismatic
Charming look at me arrogant salesy
attention seeking narcissist the
vulnerable narcissist is more socially
anxious victimized Sullen resentful
grieved and often we sort of see a
failure to launch right there sort of a
I'm angry at the world how come I never
got my turn you know makes how come she
got that and you know I I was better
than him I should have gotten that
there's like victim yeah victimhood okay
that's called vulnerable narcissism
right when we look at vulnerable narciss
nism gender
balanced okay so these other types of
narcissism you named four types there
grandiose narcissism right so that's our
traditional sort of garden variety
narcissism the showy charismatic
pretentious preing Charming attention
seeking actually quite often quite
successful narcissistic person unlike
the vulnerable narcissists who are
Failure to Launch the grandiose
narcissistic people often have big big
dreams and they'll execute not always
not always and they'll often burn
Bridges because they are in fact
narcissistic so they'll anger people or
do Shady deals or cut people out and all
that stuff but the grandio narcissistic
folks are often the Larger than Life
folks now if they are angry at you if
they feel let down by you they will let
you know they can be very vindictive
they are not going to be very honest in
a relationship they're probably going to
betray you they're going to be mean to
their Partners we can count on that too
but to the World At Large Larger than
Life That's the typical model now the
vulnerable narcissism is what I narc IST
is what I just shared with you that more
vulnerable victimized sorry victimized
socially anxious angry AG grieved Sullen
resentful Failure to Launch narcissist
okay some people would argue they're one
and the same that as long as a grandiose
narcissistic person is well supplied
things are going well they're getting
lots of attention they're making money
they're they're just sort of feeling
like they're they're the person they're
good then they're going to they're going
to stay in their grandiose mode however
if the thing tips
and things everything goes wrong for the
grandiose narcissist they lose the money
they lose the job they lose the partner
they lose social status the vulnerable
stuff will start showing up the
victimhood the resentment this is a
witch hon everyone's out to get me can
almost feel sort of lowgrade paranoid
you're either more one than another so
the vulnerable narcissist could
definitely have a grandiose moment if
everything turned for them but some
people are just more grandiose some
people are more vulnerable but they do
have the other underbelly that's just
that's how that looks now the malignant
narcissist which is another type I
talked about this is where we see the
most severe form and when I say most
severe most severe in terms of how it
shows up in relationships I'd say the
most problematic form of narcissism and
here's where we see a form of narcissism
that shows up as manipulativeness
exploitativeness the willingness to take
advantage of people um coerciveness I
isolation using Menace as a tool of
control very vindictive dangerous it
could be quite dangerous um this this is
I always say malignant narcissism is the
last stop on the train before you hit
psychopathy station because this is as
close to psychopathy as you're going to
get without it being psychopathy and in
fact there's a personality model called
the dark tetrad and the dark tetrad is
comprised of narcissism psychopathy
machiavellianism which is sort of like
that willingness to use other people for
your own advantage and sadism I
personally think there should be a fifth
bit which is par oia because I think
these folks can be really think
everyone's out to get them but the model
right now is those four pieces right
malignant narcissism has a lot of those
top notes the calculated callous
coldness the shallow charm the shallow
superficial charm intelligence um the
lack of empathy the in some ways getting
some pleasure out of seeing someone who
wronged them being hurt so again it
feels more dangerous and that's
malignant narcissism is that your say
serial killers I would say the serial
killers are probably more Psychopathic
and psychopathy is definitely a
different subtype it's different
psychopathy is something different than
malignant narcissism they're not the
same thing they they they they look
different even genetically and all and
they look different probably look
different in the brain Psychopathic
people have um they don't have remorse
they don't feel guilt whereas malignant
narcissistic people may they know they
did something wrong a psychopathic
person it's almost as though they don't
understand what they did wrong not
because they have a mental deficit but
because they literally have zero
capacity for empathy and the fourth type
of narcissism so I gave you vulnerable
grandiose malignant and the fourth type
is communal narcissism right grandios
malignant vulnerable yes the fourth type
is communal narcissism communal
narcissism is very interesting it's a
relatively new construct in the field it
came around 2003 was when I started
reading some of the first papers by a
guy Nam Gau I think he was writing he
was the University of munic the time and
I I loved the work I thought it was
absolutely compelling because it was
this idea that there were people out
there who were going to get their
narcissistic Supply not through the
usual look at me I'm so great I'm going
to do things so people tell me I'm great
but by doing good deeds by being
perceived as saviors by being perceived
as Grand Rescuers humanitarians so the
communal narcissist is a person who gets
their narcissistic Supply their praise
their admiration their Awe by doing
these good deeds and that's the
motivation for doing the good deeds not
the good deed in and of itself not
because you care about a refugee group
not because you care about the plight of
animals but because you want to be
viewed as a good dude and so that's the
communal narcissist now what gets
interesting like with all forms of
narcissism all narcissism is on a
spectrum it's not an either or from mild
to severe all of mental health is on a
spectrum there's no such thing as a
black and white dichotomy and mental
health it's it's it's mild to severe
mild to severe and what's interesting
with communal narcissism at the lowest
ends it's sort of like you're more like
Instagram saviors like look at me I'm
saving the world but you know like
they're cleaning up the beach in their
bikini and I'm like is this about how
attractive you are is this about really
trying to save the environment like it
really is about are we talking about
apps or are we talking about trash in
the street like what are we talking
about but they want the validation like
what a cool person you are for spending
your weekend saving elephants they're
relatively harmless they're moderately
ridiculous but they do get angry if
people don't give them a big Bravo for
how humanitarian they are you take
communal narcissism all the way to the
severe end of the spectrum you're
talking about a cult leader these are
now people who are saying I have the
answer to the universe I know everything
I know you better than you they'll bring
people into cultic systems they will
completely you know separate them from
their sense of self and their sense of
self-worth have no problem doing it it
and tell them that they're doing them a
good thing the whole time that's to me
your your severe cult leader or I think
all cult leader cult leader forget
severe a cult leader is really probably
where communal and malignant narcissism
come together the big question how many
people are narcissists this is a big
question because our problem is this
there's really no good studies about
this it's tough to measure narcissism
who's really going to cop to being
really entitled or really manipulative
you often don't get people who are going
to answer those questions in an honest
open way when we look at the prevalence
of narcissistic personality disorder
that are done in what we call large
scale epidemiologic studies we see the
rates to be somewhere between 1 and 6%
but that's the diagnosis and that's in
really structured research settings
narcissism is a person who has enough of
the narcissistic personality style to be
noticeable to be experienced by others
it's a spitball number because we've
never done the numbers so I'd say if the
spitball number is probably sit in
somewhere between 15 and 18% I think
that's a good guess about one in six
people I think if you're in a major
metropolitan area it's going to be a
little higher I think in certain
industries it's going to be higher um I
think in certain maybe even cultures it
could be higher so but if you were going
to just give me ask me for a global
prevalence I mean I think that's it's my
it's my best guess and I think a lot of
folks in the field might agree with me
again enough of it that you'd notice it
enough of it that people are being
affected by it so you've met six team
members of mine including me I have not
I've only met four of you so you're
still two men down you're okay you might
still be coming it through cuz my next
question was which one do you think it
was so far so bad for you because each
one of us has been sweeter than the next
so Stephen you're in the hot seat right
now oh gosh sugar okay interesting okay
so I mean one and six as a as a spitball
number is is scarily high that's
interesting you think it's scarily High
I mean I I think it's
about I mean listen we know how I I I
actually don't think it is I think if
you went to a small town you might hit
closer to one in eight because I think a
small town is almost based on a greater
need for sociality I think there's more
interdependence in that kind of a
situation so narcissism isn't going to
probably work as well but I I mean one
in six I think if any of us really went
home and did the soul searching listed
out the names of everyone we knew the
number is probably going to track is
that number increasing are we breeding
narcissists because of the sort of
Social and societal changes that have
occurred I'm thinking about Instagram
when you said that I was thinking
is is social media a narcissist Creator
it's I think it's a it's a narcissist
amplifier but I don't think it's a
Creator narcissism is a personality
style and like all personality Styles
it's a social emotional developmental
phenomenon that happens from infancy
into adolescence so somebody jumping
onto Instagram when they're 18 and
posted lots of selfies they're a decent
person that's not going to turn them
narcissistic it might turn them boring
but I don't know that it would
necessarily turn them narcissistic I
think it could take if somebody's got
the traits they have the tendency to
need the validation and admiration and
again a person posting selfies that
doesn't make them narcissistic because
Jack went on holiday up this mountain
and he posted loads of photos Okay so no
but but we have to if Jack's a nice
person right jack is excited to share
his trip with everyone right but he was
kind of like rubbing it in okay so it's
a that's right Jack just lost some
points there poor Jack but it's a but
but I would say this what what we' want
to know with anyone who's posted a lot
of vacation photos right and they keep
doing it how present are they when
you're actually with them if you say
like listen Jack is the loveliest person
in the world and Jack Loves sharing his
vacation trips and there's a little bit
of shot and frea in there like you know
but he's a sweetie then jacks off the
hook right I think though that what n
what social media has become is it has
taken PE Once Upon a Time and you're
probably even you're you're not so young
that you wouldn't remember this but I
remembered it as a full grown ass woman
is that I can tell you that if I go
backwards to when I first heard about
social media I was already in my 40s at
that point and um and I remember looking
at it and I was already studying
narcissism and I said oh God I I and it
was really like it was almost like
Houston we have a problem kind of thing
someone else had shown it to me and I
thought to myself this isn't going to
create more narcissist but once upon a
time for a narcissistic person to get
validation they'd actually have to have
a shave in a shower and get out of the
house you couldn't just sit home and get
validation you had to go go to work get
it in a family sphere get it in your
town bar or Pub or something like that
but it wasn't going to come home from
you just sitting on your ass at home
taking pictures of yourself cuz I don't
know if you've ever tried to take a
picture of yourself with the camera
you're either going to catch your head
or your mouth like that's how we used to
try to do it right so now there was a
tool for these people to have a
megaphone to say look how wonderful I am
so a person who was already
narcissistic this was going to harness
it and sort of it was an accelerant on a
fire that was already burning but I keep
in the house though isn't it which is
sounds like it's a safer place for it to
be them wandering around the streets
yeah well the point is what keeping oh
keeping them in at home rather than but
I still think that what it did though is
now we get into a bigger philosophical
question this many people depicting
lives that are look how much better my
life is than yours look how together I
am look how great I'm doing while that
might be something the narcissistic
people will do to offset their sense of
insecurity because that's sort of the
core wound in narcissism there are other
vulnerable people who are watching that
content who are not narcissistic but
already feel like they don't measure up
and we've created this really messy
space of people who already devalue
themselves looking at these lives far
better than theirs and wondering what's
wrong with
me roughly one in six people have a
podcast so I was just
wondering I mean that that many people
think they have something that
interesting to say right so um and like
I said everybody's trying to put their
voice out there their vacation pictures
out there their breakfast pictures out
there are not narcissistic I think in
some cases I I don't think we should
over pathologize what has become a new
way of interacting I've got it's
interesting I have children my my my
daughters are now both in their early
20s and I'll watch their facility but
they're it's not I see what they're
doing it's not narcissism it's actually
communication and they're staying in
touch with a very large net of widely
spread friends and there is a lot of
intimacy there so I think young people
whose cognition kind of also grew with
it they use it in a more sort of
seamless way listen what's it been
around now we're we're going to soon
come come 20 years around 20 years since
social media has been around right we're
rounding that horn soon we're going to
get it's going to take a minute to get
the data we're going to get our first
set of data from the kids whose lives
were captured from the day they popped
onto a delivery table all the way right
through ad adolescence that data is
going to be very telling I don't think
it's created more narcissism I think
we've always had grandiose narcissists I
think they make history they've been our
leaders they're the people we've always
looked to they've been the town mayor
whatever I think what it's all it has
done though it's taken this problem of
vulnerable narcissism and it's really
blown it up because the vulnerable
narcissistic people get super resentful
when they perceive other people as
having these awesome lives that they
don't and they get more angry and this
is sort of the Advent of the Internet
troll a lot of that is explained by
vulnerable narcissism so where does
narcissism come from then this is one of
the big questions it from what you said
there I assume it comes there might be a
genetic component that's brought out by
our childhood or so we're all born with
a temperament right I don't know if
you're an only child if you have
siblings or anything youngest of four
you're youngest of four okay so this is
harder for you do you would it' be
interesting for you to talk with them is
that and your your your parent whoever
was parents whoever around every one of
you you and your siblings had slightly
different personalities from the day you
were born and that rolled out in early
childhood so you'll see that one kid
who's just easy breezy from the day
they're born you'll some sometimes see
that kid who's just a clenched up ball
of nerves from the day they're born
you'll see that kid who just doesn't
want to chill for a minute from the day
they're born that stuff is called
temperament and what we know about
temperament is that there are certain
temperaments and those that make a child
more biologically vulnerable a little
bit more difficult to soothe they may be
more they just sort of need more right
so they're more of a demand on a
caregiver it that with that more
vulnerable temperament if that comes up
against an environment that's at all
invalidating trauma neglect other
adversities chaos domestic violence
substance use in the family um and even
emotional abuse with a child is just
being told stop sit down shut up why
can't you be like your sisters right
that com that combination can actually
set up a real risk for developing
narcissism so that's pathway one but
pathway two and this is actually coming
out of really interesting work by a guy
named Eddie bruman from the University
of Amsterdam it's fascinating work and
he is studying more sort of how do we do
what's the other pathway well the other
pathway and other folks like Masterson
and others have written about this which
is the overvalued child these are the
children who are told you're more
special than any other child not that
you're special but you are more special
than him and him and her so you
shouldn't have to wait in a line you're
more special you should get the teacher
you want you should get everything you
want those children often they don't
learn to self Soo they often aren't as
well regulated they actually kind of
believe the hype that the parent is
giving them which is not doing them any
favor favors and Bromans is suggesting
that this could sort of be a
foreshadowing of what could turn into
adult narcissism you I'm guessing you
need that temperament on board I think
if you had a sweet tempered kid that
constantly being told that they're
special actually might leave the sweet
tempered kid feeling a little bit guilty
actually but the kid with that more
vulnerable temperament they might sort
of they might buy into the hype so you
sort of have this one p pathway of
adversity you have the one pathway of
sort of these are kids who are told
you're great you can anything you want
we'll do anything you want let's go on
this vacation here's this device but
there're off also kids that are often
very emotionally undernourished they're
not they're not um their emotions are
not valued they're not reflected they're
not mirrored so these are kids who are
get get get but it's a very tenuous
existence because they're still not in
touch with their emotional World which
has to happen in child otherwise you
don't get that um that so you don't get
that atlas of your own emotions right so
those tend to be the two primary p
Pathways
now not every kid who goes through those
Pathways will be will become
narcissistic in fact the ma vast
majority will not so I think that the
this it's very complicated and what we
call it's very it's it's
multi-determined it's a very
multi-determined series of Pathways to
what leads to adult narcissism and
because of that I always say narcissism
is one of those stories we can always
tell backwards but is really difficult
to tell forwards don't show me your
17-year-old who is who is has a lot of
attitude and won't empty the dishwasher
and calls you names and don't ask me if
he's narcissistic I usually tell those
parents call me in 10 years and in 10
years you're going to see if this
tracked or he pops out of it like every
adolescent who's trying to kind of
individuate from his parents and settles
down into a decent guy you mentioned
that narcissism exists on a spectrum so
does that mean that someone can be a
little bit narcissistic I would say
somebody can have milder narcissistic
presentation so what I mean by milder
the mild narcissistic people the best
adjective I could use they're annoying
they're emotionally immature they're
superficial they're shallow they're
vapid and and they're also very
self-centered so these are people when
they're having a problem they expect the
world to stop for them take their calls
talk to them for hours but the day
finally comes that you need your friend
they're nowhere to be seeing like oh I
don't have time for this so it can feel
like a very very imbalanced relationship
and when you're with them the mild
narcissist can actually be kind of fun
right they're they're like let's go to
this new hot hip whatever blah blah blah
and they're fun and laugh and dance and
attention seeking could be fun for a
minute but there it would be very
difficult to have a long-term committed
relationship with someone like that be
difficult to raise children with someone
like that it would have been very
difficult to have been raised by someone
like that are narcissists more
successful professionally yes they're
much more successful that's the problem
and not I mean again I and I'm not going
to make this a blanket statement but I'm
going to tell you now that they are
they're more ambitious success is life
or death to them right because it's
validation it's the it's the it's the
blood that flows to their psyche so the
stakes are much higher for them the rest
of us we want to succeed but at the end
of the day we would say I've got my
family I got my friends I got enough
money in the bank I got some food in my
belly like I'm good but for them it is
it's the air in their lungs so they're
more represented in leadership they are
they make more money especially
narcissistic men make more money than
agree um agreeable men
um they're more successful at dating um
they're more successful and
unfortunately the way our economy is set
up it is set up so that the narcissistic
people win narcissism and capitalism go
together really well because it's a
competitive system that rewards the
person who does the most and we don't
look at process we look at outcome and
be when any anytime you have an outcome
heavy metric narcissistic people are
always going to win
I'm thinking about some of the greatest
companies that have been built that
changed the world you know Apple being
one of
them oftentimes when you hear about how
these people treated other
people
um it sounds like the narcissistic
characteristics that you described
earlier you know but then we often
excuse that because of what they brought
into the world the great Innovations the
great companies they built how they
helped change the world how they maybe
led us through or out of
War so
what do you say to that is it sometimes
worth their narcissism for what they
gave the world so here's here's a rub I
completely agree with what you're saying
I actually think that some of the
greatest Innovations greatest creativity
in fact many wartime presidents and
prime ministers were it had to be
narcissistic right and might have gotten
Count's people through messes might have
made the had the decisive postures that
were necessary that might have made the
real really really kinds of um difficult
corporate decisions that needed to be
make with little regard for how the
human beings were going to get hurt
treated people way pushed them to an
inhuman limit and then there was this
thing that came out of it was it worth
it I mean now we're in now we're in
philosophy honey and I'm a
psychologist but but suffice it to
say you know there's some there's always
been talk like even inventors like Tom
Alva Thomas Alva Edison wasn't a was not
a nice guy right some archival res
SE loving these light bulbs right would
someone else have done it it's a mood
point he did and
so I think the Innovations are important
I think narcissistic people are built
for Innovation they're grandiose they're
dreamers they want the agile they want
to do the big thing they want to be on
the big Tech stage and have all the
lights on them and have all the
attention while they have the Beautiful
video and the simple thing and they want
that that is their everything and what I
tell people is we're never never going
to have a world without them we have
gotten lots of cool stuff in our lives
from them just don't marry
them is it possible to be the person on
the stage to build the incredible thing
to have the insane ambition to put
little computers into our pockets and do
all of that and not be a narcissist I
fully believe there absolutely 100% I
think it's harder though I really really
do I think that the empathic CEO is a is
a unicorn it's tough that you know and
because they're they're answering to so
many Masters right they're answering to
shareholders they're answering to rank
and file they're answering to management
it's I wouldn't want that job I I'm a
very agreeable empathic person and I I I
got to tell you i' I'd rather do any job
than that one it sounds I'd love the
money but I it's it sounds terrible and
I think that the kind of shapeshifting
and chameleon like qualities that
requires it's I would say that an
empathic person would get a bit more
swallowed up in that job because if you
actually stopped to care about everyone
you were serving in that position you
would burn out real fast the not caring
I think is what actually can protect a
person in that position and that's not
to say all CEOs are narcissistic though
a lot are because it's a competition at
the end of the day it is a competition
at the end of the day and narcissistic
people are built for competition they're
built for it because they have to win at
any cost the rest of us are probably
like I'm out you know yeah a lot of
Industries are a zero some game not
business generally isn't but when I say
zero some game I mean there's you know
when um one person does well that kind
of means that someone else is not going
to do well so I'm thinking about some
Industries even one of my companies
third web we realize that it's kind of a
winner takes all industry in the same
way that like Amazon is like there's one
Amazon and they dominate the whole of
them pretty much all the market share
and with Google there's one Google and
the nearest competitor probably has 5%
of the market share so there are
elements in business where it is pretty
Winner Takes all and it's conceivable to
think the person who is most ruthless
most willing to cut ethical Corners most
willing to put profits over people is
probably going to rise to the top that's
right so you know generally espe at
least in the short term in the short
term and but the thing is then they'll
cash out yeah all their bad ethics will
catch up with them or their bad ethics
will catch up with they'll end up in
jail which we see a lot we do we see it
and I think for some people it was a was
it was a worthy gamble because they
could have potentially won at all right
or they or they truly believed they were
going to get away with it and I think
that that's when we use the word
arrogance arrogance is at it at its
deepest level is I'm going to do the bad
thing and I'm going to get away with
it what about money um does money make
you more
narcissistic here's where it gets to be
an interesting conversation and I write
about this actually more in my other
book and don't you know who I am where I
I money breeds privilege money breeds
entitle entitlement what I call the sort
of phenomenon of feet that never touch
the ground right if people have enough
money they're whizzed to airports and
cars they don't stand in the TSA line
with the unwashed masses like the rest
of us do they're taken to the best hotel
suites they are they don't think about
where their next meal is coming from
it's brought to them they don't they
don't do the all the the stuff that the
rest of us do they don't tolerate the
indignities and they don't have to
regulate the same way so when a person
has money for long enough that feet
never touching the ground creates what
they call sort of privileged
entitlement was that maybe [ __ ] but
maybe not I think it's also that bubble
wrapped way that they go through life
like they actually don't understand how
to use the self checkout at Target did
you hear the Paul piff study from the
University of yeah he's great by the way
he's wonderful which well we did so many
which study are you referring to um the
one where people are made to feel
wealthier and when they feel wealthier
they were more likely to endorse
unethical decisions such as stealing
office supplies stealing candy people
who were made to feel wealthier also
gave less to charity people who were who
were made to feel wealthier expressed
happiness through feelings that were
self focused such as through Pride um
contentment and amusement and people who
felt less wealthy were more likely to
agree with statements that were focused
on others that's right which kind of
suggests that being wealthier and
feeling wealthier makes you more of an
[ __ ] makes you more of an [ __ ] it
makes you more self-referential right so
I think that you know does that make
sense surprising you think it be the
other way around not at all not at all
because I think that again Paul's
research is great by the way he's
wonderful he actually did another
research study where he studied um he
looked he went to busy intersections in
Orange County he's a professor UC Irvin
was at the time when I had met him um
and they'd go to busy intersections stop
signs not red lights and he found that
people who drove luxury cars were far
less likely to make a full stop at the
stop sign and people compared to people
who had more sort of you know middle
level cars I mean it was fascinating so
there's and and there's there's at least
a dozen published studies that show that
narcissistic people drive more
dangerously so it's an interesting kind
of an accumulation but per the money
part I don't believe like if a person
was a full grown adult 30 35 years old
and they were an
agreeable warm self-aware person and
they made a lot of money okay I don't
think you would turn them
narcissistic I do think you might
undercut that self awareness because
they may be sort of pulled out of the
world that the rest of us live in so
there might be unrealistic expectations
for how the world like why are we
waiting in this line I'm like well
that's because what we do is wait in
this line because they've come out of it
but they're not cruel about it they're
like why are these dumb people making me
wait in line so it's not a
dismissiveness it's almost like how is
this so inefficient there's almost a
there's like a disconnect I guess so I
wouldn't say money I think what he's
showing is that money creates a
self-centeredness right as you thought
it might go the other way but I think
that we sort of double down on sort of
keeping it and we there's there's an
importance I mean money is is the
ultimate source of narcissistic Supply
because it delivers power it delivers
admiration it delivers a greater
likelihood of getting sex or getting
laid it delivers all kinds of stuff so
for a narcissistic person the quest of
for money is the the shest quick ticket
way to get this thing called
narcissistic Supply so you'll often see
them attempting to do that by any means
possible so but they but they're driven
to the money I don't think that the
money is what makes people rot and I
think the bubble wrapping at that point
makes them entitled it's a different
conversation how do you know if you are
a
narcissist like does a narcissist know
they are one is there a narcissist test
one can do I don't there's about five to
six tests out there that are designed to
detect narcissism in its various ways
all of them have flaws like I said and
it's not it's not even fully the fault
of the test because this is a very
difficult thing to measure right we're
at we're trying to measure things that
are not socially desirable right that's
really tough to measure so a lot of the
narcissism tests will measure things
like some entitlement assertiveness um
self-importance that people may not find
as offensive but the research actually
shows that narcissistic people
overestimate their empathy
and underestimate their negative effect
on other people they do not have a clear
look at themselves they really have an
almost deluded sense of who they are and
how they go through the world so when a
person says to me I think I'm
narcissistic I always say hold the
presses you need to tell me a little bit
about you because there's a lot of
people out there who think of themselves
as narcissistic because they're in
relationships with narcissistic people
who have told them over the years years
you are such a selfish person because
this unfortunate person is doing simple
things like saying hey could we go where
I want to go for dinner once or you I
want to talk about my feelings and then
their narcissistic partner saying oh my
gosh you're so selfish and they're
really sort of indoctrinated into this
idea or gaslighted into this idea that
there's something narcissistic about
them once we clear the decks of that is
there a subset of people out there who
are narcissistic and are kind of in some
awareness like this might be who I am
yes and we call them self-aware
narcissistic people they're out there
some of them view narcissism as their
superpower they say like don't take this
away for me this is why I've got the
edge this is why I close the sale this
is why I'm the man and one client was
like I'm the man like oh my gosh like a
six-year-old but okay do people men come
to you women come to you and say I am a
narcissist yes I've had that happen it's
not common I can count on one hand the
number of times it's happened and did
you agree with them and they I in about
an hour
yeah what was were they how did they
figure out they were a narcissist what
were they saying they might have read
they might have read my books or more
more likely saw YouTube video they might
have you know sort of again seen my
content someone might have said that to
them and then they looked it up on
Google and they're like that is kind of
me but they did in many ways rationalize
it saying this is why I always close the
deal this is who I am like you know what
was it don't hate the don't hate the
player hate the game they would try that
kind of stuff with me and I'd say but
your behavior is offensive like this is
not okay what you're doing what you did
you're doing on an ongoing basis to your
spouse or partner is not okay and so
they would have that awareness like
almost like from a checklist yeah like
yeah I don't care that much about
people's feelings and yeah I guess I
kind of think the rules don't apply to
me they'll have that awareness it's
pretty uncommon like I said most
narcissistic people Veer into this idea
of they overestimate their goodness and
generosity underestimate how um how
negatively they're viewed by other
people so let's talk then about the
impacts of narcissism on relationships
particular what kind of people do
narcissists attract in relationships and
what kind of people are attracted to
narcissists so it's such a good question
I'm so glad you asked it what kind of
people do they attract everyone's
attracted to narcissistic people they're
Charming they're charismatic they're
confident they're in research has shown
they're often rated as more attractive
than other people they take good care of
their bodies they know lots of
interesting things they're so concerned
about hiped that they are like they know
the cool restaurants they all of us have
been indoctrinated to think that these
are the people were supposed to be
dating right who says no to charm
Charisma and attractiveness me maybe but
just nobody else would do that so we're
all attracted to them right until and
even with the vulnerable narcissistic
folks you'll say really someone's going
to be attracted to Sullen and resentful
well that's not how they come off when
you first meet meet them many times a
vulnerable narcissistic person looks
like a vulnerable child who needs to be
rescued so if you like rescuing people
or puppies or any small vulnerable
creature that's going to seem actually
very attractive to you so we're all
attracted to them what about what are
they attracted to in us they're what
they're attracted to in US is our supply
now Supply can mean different things to
different narcissistic folks classical
sorts of Supply or are we attractive if
we're attractive if we have some form of
social status if we have have resource
if we have connections the things that
would get them Supply here's where it
gets wonky because the question
attractiveness is what attracts people
it's almost the wrong question the more
deep question is what gets people stuck
in narcissistic relationships because
narcissistic relationships start strong
these are people who are running their
fastest miles in the beginning of the
marathon like they're just like go and
you this is these can often feel like a
fairy tale it is is it's glamorous and
it's exciting and it's the dates are
really interesting and they're very
attuned they may be very attentive they
focus on you and they figure what's
going to work for you if they really
want to keep you close it's they want to
they want to get you and they want to
get you quick because then you're like a
butterfly underglass then they've got
you captured because after all this good
stuff happens you've bought in you might
even be dubious for a while saying oh
seems seem too good to be true or I
don't know but then people after about I
always say it's somewhere between 6
weeks and six months the devaluing stage
starts and then it's they've got you
right and they they you might get the
passive aggressive digs the
minimizations
the lack of empathy the withdrawing the
withholding and people will say where
did that first six weeks go to like wait
a minute we had such a good time and as
the devaluing begins people start to
blame themselves so people who are more
empathic
more forgiving more optimistic these are
the kinds of people who get stuck
because they're making allowances for
this they're saying I mean I can't they
they were lovely and they did say
they're having a really stressful time
at work but their behavior is
consistently dismissive and rude and so
you keep making excuses excuses excuses
but then there's a few good days
sprinkled in there so one of the
interesting things is um a lot of people
are trying to figure out if their
partners are narcissists h do people in
relationships especially long-term
relationships tend to know that they're
dating a
narcissist or is the n or is the
narcissist gaslighted them to the point
that they they don't know until recently
most people did not know because it's it
feels like a disloyal thing to know
about your partner many people say I
love my partner we have built a life
together there are enough good days that
leave them thinking like there's
something here they're confused people
in these relationships are confused
they're they blame themselves for
everything that goes wrong they're
walking on eggshells they've in essence
modified themselves to be exactly what
the narcissistic partner wants but it's
a slow burn it's it's a very slow
process of indoctrination I always say
these relationships are Death By A
Thousand Cuts because it's just each of
these things happen slowly over time
it's almost as a one day you wake up
you're like who am like what have I
become I'm literally like living in
service to this other person it's only
in the last 10 years I'd say that
there's so much more content and the
internet is more robust with making this
and I'm sure people type it in my
partner has no empathy and is really
entitled and yells at me a lot Bing and
then narcissism pops out at you I think
this really created the revolution of
people saying what is this and even when
I wrote should I stare should I go that
was
2015 I think it was we're still in the
beginning phases there were just maybe
about a dozen books out there taking
this on and so we it's it's a as more
information gets out there more people
are clear
that this is happening in their
relationships the hope is the earlier
you identify it the less indoctrinated
the less what we call trauma bonded you
become and then the easier it would be
to make clear-headed decisions about how
you want to proceed you talk about the
three Rs that are the whole marks of
negative relationships in your books
what are the three Rs so the first is
rumination okay that the rumination is
it's an obsessive thinking about the
relationship and it's usually in an
attempt to either say what did I do
wrong what happened what is going on
it's a trying to fix it so these are the
three things that someone that's in a
relationship with a narcissist will do
yep I mean they do a lot more but these
are three common ones so the rumination
is a Hallmark characteristic of a person
in an narcissistic relationship in
essence you're just trying to make sense
of something that makes no sense the
next R is regret and that regret links
to bigger themes like grief people
having regret that this is the parent I
have and I will never have have a close
loving relationship with them the regret
that this is the marriage I created and
my children will never get a healthy
model of marriage the regret that I've
spent 20 years in this relationship and
really all I have to show for it is a
whole lot of nothing except that it's
harmed me so the regrets play out even
big ways and even small ways like why
did I say that why didn't I say it that
way and then the last R is it's really
euphoric recall the are being for recall
by euphoric recall I mean that people in
narcissistic relationships of an uncanny
ability to sort of
cherry-pick the good things that happen
in the relationship to keep
rationalizing it and justifying it to
themselves so ba might be in a
narcissistic relationship with a person
has really treated them heinously for a
month but on one day of that month the
narcissistic person when they went to
the grocery store for the first time
remembered to bring home two muffins so
that you could have a muffin and the
person's like they brought me home the
best blueberry muffin wasn't that
thoughtful they brought me home a muffin
we had muffins together so the euphoric
recall is the over focus on those good
experiences as a way in essence to
create this sort of psychological buyin
so then you can maintain the status quo
for people in narcissistic relationships
it's not as those they're waking up
saying this is a hellscape I want to get
out they're getting up saying I'm so
confused I feel like I'm never enough
nothing I do is Ever Enough nothing I
say is ever they're not listening to me
what is going on maybe I'm not being
clear enough maybe there's something
wrong with me so that's the confusion
element so it's not like everyone's
saying I want to get out of this there's
a lot of history there's a lot of
experiences together so people again and
they're also confused because there's
good things that happen and bad things
that happen and that's what creates like
I said this thing called the trauma
bonded relationship so people might even
be able to say like there's something
about this that isn't okay and might
even be able to articulate these are the
problems in the relation relationship
but the idea of leaving this
relationship fills me with an absolute
sense of panic would would a narcissist
play to that insecurity and that um that
history well the narcissistic person
created the insecurity and they they
will because the narcissistic person is
an expert tactician right because that's
what they bring to relationships is
tactics and so they are very expert at
knowing like ah your wound is
abandonment piece of cake so if you say
I I can't do this my out the
narcissistic partner say okay cool let's
call it quiz you'll like that's not what
I wanted them to say I wanted them to
say they were going to fight for the
relationship you see what I'm saying
like they it's so interesting because
and part of the reason narcissistic
people are so successful is because
they're so socially perceptive they have
no empath social perceptiveness and
empathy are not the same thing what do
they social perceptiveness is kind of
being aware of reading the room
understanding what people need
understanding what makes them tick and
what they want and then strategically
giving it to them to keep them on the
chain or keep them in the position you
need them in that's not
empathic manipulation you Ed the word
earlier on to describe
narcissism there's two types of
manipulation you speak about which is
the the sort of normal manipulation
which I think we all do in our own ways
when we're trying to get our way with a
deal or with sales or with someone or
whatever when we're trying to haggle for
a discount whatever it might be and then
there's this pathological ipulation
which seems to be a little bit different
M yeah pathological manipulation is that
there's absolutely no regard for the
harm it's bringing the other person you
really are giving absolute Primacy to
your own needs and then making the other
person think that this truly is good for
them this isn't as simple as I'm going
to sell this car to someone maybe it's
not the right car for them this is
really around psychological stuff and
it's with somebody where listen you're
going into a sales relationship you
understand what the sort of the codes of
that relationship are they're trying to
sell you something you're trying to
decide if it's right for you we don't
try to think of our intimate and our
familial relationships as sales models
so our guard is not up in the same way
and yet the same tactics are being
brought and we're sort of bargaining on
things that are matters of the heart and
matters of closeness and compassion so
it's again the narcissistic person is so
skilled at leaving the other person
feeling that the thing they sacrificed
or gave up was in their best interest
and and ultimately the narcissistic
person is so self-centered that anything
that they're trying to do is going to
serve them projection I've heard this
phrase used a few times like he's
projecting onto you or she's projecting
in the context of narcissism what is
projection so projection is CL is a
primitive defense that any of us can use
and we do use all of us engage in
projection we engage in projection when
some of that uncomfortable unconscious
stuff inside of us is getting activated
it's often shame or oriented and then
we'll accuse someone of something that
we're actually feeling like an
uncomfortable feeling that's projection
we all EX um how you might project onto
me okay uh we're in a we're in a
relationship and I'll say something like
who are you texting Stephen like why
what do you like you're so shady like
you know why don't you show your show me
your phone like what oh my gosh Stephen
like what the hell you need so many you
need all the girls to like you don't you
like that's what you're all you're about
show me your phone show me your phone
show me your phone now
guess who's got a side piece that would
be me oh really oh there's a life hack
for you Stephen okay so you're you're
insecure because you know that you're
Stephen not insecure I I'm doing a bad
thing are you still
pretending no I am no longer in a
relationship okay so we're done that's
because you cheated on me even though
didn't but it was me but now I can go be
with my new
guy so but it's I'm giving giv you like
such a loow hanging fruit example it's
anytime we might accuse someone of lying
when we're lying we may accuse somebody
of um even being insecure when we're the
one feeling insecure right we'll accuse
someone of being uncomfortable when
we're the one be who's feeling
uncomfortable and all of us have
different stuff we project about because
all of us have different sort of
psychodynamic histories right well
narcissistic people do this all the time
let me give you sort of a sense of what
the inner psychological apparatus of a n
a narcissistic person looks like despite
all the shiny charismatic Charming
arrogant grandiose stuff on the outside
what's in them is the best I can
describe it is a volcano right and that
volcano the magma and the gases and the
lava is shame and it's insecurity well
that's not very perfect looking is it so
all these defenses the grandiosity and
the arrogance and the charm and all the
rest of it is like a manhole cover a big
manhole cover that covers the volcano so
all that insecurity doesn't exist I'm
I'm just the smartest person you know
right so they get to show up as perfect
as
extraordinary but things can kick that
manhole cover off criticism negative
feedback their friend doing better than
them their new Venture not succeeding um
them not getting something that they
wanted some form of frustration well
that means they're not perfect the
manhole cover gets nudged the gases in
the lava o out what does that look like
it looks like anger it looks like
projection you accuse the other and this
happens to them 20 times a day CU nobody
lives a perfect life we get disappointed
all the time there's traffic on the
freeway there we had to wait for the
elevator the people at the coffee shop
screwed up our order our our public
offering didn't go well it could be big
things it could be small things it
doesn't matter but each time the manhole
cover gets nudged that grandiose
exterior gets tinged and they they
explode on others and that often looks
like projection and that projection
allows them to maintain that idealized
interior can they take feedback
narcissists like do they listen to the
do they no they they can't they really
don't they cannot the only time a
narcissistic person may may tiny bit
listen to feedback is if it comes from
somebody with much much more power than
them because narcissistic people are
very hierarchical climbing creatures
right so let's say they're getting it
the CEO's up here and there's some sort
of P level person here and they admire
the CEO the CEO is giving them
feedback they will listen because they
want to be him they want to be with him
they want to be next to or her or them
whoever the CEO is right but I so they
may get some of it but they're still
going to hear it
as there'll be this noise that's
blocking them out from hearing all of it
so it might be
compliance as a means to an end versus
them actually going ah okay no yeah
they're not not integrating it into
they're they're just sort of and they
might even think like God this person's
such a dick I I could do their job so
much better they're so lucky they got
there I'm going to get there but they
they again they also Envy this person so
they are listening but like you said it
is exactly what you said it's compliance
versus the sense of let me listen to
this and I can promise you what this
person's going to do if they're in a
relationship they're going to go home
and rage at their partner because they
had to have that feedback session
they're going to find a more vulnerable
Target because they can't attack that
CEO and they'll go and find someone else
to rage at a partner a person on the
subway train a family member friend
someone else I heard this word
gaslighting again it's a word I've heard
a lot but I I'm not necessarily really
clear on what the definition of
gaslighting is but from reading your
work I hear that narcissists gas light
people a lot a lot right what is
gaslighting so gaslighting it's simplest
it's a power play it's a form of
emotional abuse and it's a tactic
gaslighting is predicated on a
relationship that's ostensibly car
characterized by trust so that's why
strangers can't gasl at you in the same
way as an intimate partner a trusted
colleague a family member even a person
with expertise like an attorney or a
physician could Gaslight you right
because there's a there's a presumption
of trust so you're going to listen to
the gaslighter initially what the
gaslighter will do is they will doubt
The Gaslight head person's perceptions
experiences memories even reality that
never happened I never said that you're
making that up that you're we never went
there so now this person's a little
confused because their reality is saying
yeah we did yeah we did so initially a
person will fight back against a gas
light they'll say we absolutely went
there do you want me to show you the
pictures on my phone then we go to the
next step of gaslighting the gaslighter
doesn't want to see the pictures on your
phone they just want to overpower you
this isn't about evidence this is about
them overpowering you so they'll say
look here's the pictures on my phone and
then the gas fighter won't say well
you're right we did go there instead
they'll say oh my gosh you are the most
Petty human being I've ever met is this
what it is you're just going to go on
your phone to find the pictures to prove
something to me is that what this
relationship is I don't know that I want
even be in a relationship like this now
this poor person who's being gaslighted
is thinking I just showed them the
pictures to prove a point and now I'm
the bad one and so they're and they
trust this person so they think well
maybe I am doing something bad maybe I
am being petty but gaslighting doesn't
happen once it happens over and over and
over again it's an indoctrination
process that leaves the gaslighted
person utterly confused completely out
of their minds doubting themselves and
they start to believe the critiques then
the gaslighter will tell them things
like you're crazy you're stupid you
don't remember things right maybe you
have dementia do you think you should be
in therapy you might need to be on
medication like by the time the
gaslighter is done with with someone
they've lost all sense of they don't
they don't trust themselves at all and
so if they don't leave the relationship
and some people don't they are then sort
of in this again this form of servitude
with the narcissistic person or
gaslighting person almost relying on
them to lead them through reality so
it's almost like utter submission at
that point that they get the the
gaslighter gets to dictate reality and
then over time there's there's this
there's this tactic that narcissistic
and other abusive people use called dar
darvo stands for deny attack reverse
victim and offender it's a construct
that was developed by Dr Jennifer fried
deny attack reverse victim and offender
so what the narcissistic person will in
a very skill I mean in a cruy skillful
way do is if the person the gaslighted
person ever attempts to push back on
something that the narcissist is does
done like you came you said you were
going to be home by 9:00 last night you
didn't get home till 1: in the
morning the narcissistic prison will
deny said that's not true I came yeah I
didn't get home at 9: but I didn't come
home at any 1 in the morning but again
like what is your problem like what do
you do like you read the ADT guide all
day to see what time I come in the door
and you know what like I can't believe
that this is my life I work so hard to
keep us in this fabulous house I work so
hard so you can stay home and I'm the
bad guy like I can't even believe that
this is the issue like you put me
through so much reverse victim and
offender he was out till 1: in the
morning and he knows it but now he shut
down the conversation it is an Insidious
dynamic because done enough you
literally strip another person of their
reality and that is unacceptable to me
that's absolute abuse do you see this
alone all the time all the time it is
the dynamic that once it had name to it
when the word is used right most people
use this word wrong that whole process I
described is gaslighting when the word
is used correctly it's powerful it
captures a unique interpersonal Dynamic
that really eats people from the inside
out I hear it I see it all the time by
family members by Partners in the
workplace you name it and it really
messes people up because they they feel
like they've lost their minds and they
feel like they can't trust themselves
and I think that's a terrible thing to
do to someone what should you do if
you're being gas
lit when you know what it is and someone
starts to gas light you they literally
deny your reality right you have to take
a step back and say that's not what
happened but you don't say it to them
the importance with gaslighting is you
don't engage with the gaslighter you now
know you're being gaslighted which
means the other person in that
interaction has the capacity to Gaslight
you so what that means is from your side
you need to shut it down and that means
no longer engaging does that make so
that you cannot keep engaging with them
because they're going to pull you down
further and further yeah they're gonna
it's almost like they're going to pull
you down into into being drowned or pull
you into the quicksand so when they
start gaslighting I never said that one
playback could be we're having a
different experience then and leave it
at that don't go down that slipp SL
don't go down the slope don't say don't
show them the text message don't pull
out the email don't try to prove them
wrong don't engage with them it's it's
funny you're asking me this because I
was recently gaslighted I in relatively
recently in a professional
situation and I'm thinking not me like I
don't know much but I know this so don't
but they did I was and I got very upset
and in this particular situation it was
actually I understand why I got it like
think of it as a corporate structure
that was gaslighting me so sometimes
very very nice people who work in
corporate systems Gaslight because
they're trying to prop up the narcissism
of the corporation but they're decent
human beings and it was very clear to me
I've seen that happen but in this
particular case I was being gaslighted I
got upset though knowing all I know
knowing all the tactics it's very
dehumanizing to have your reality
completely doubted and so I I did feel a
sense of upset but I confronted the
person I said this is gaslighting and
it's not okay and I know you're better
than this and they will happen to be
this was a lucky case where the Nar the
the gaslighter was not
narcissistic so we came to a conclusion
but when I've been gaslighted by
narcissistic
people I just disengage and I file it
away and say this person is capable of
this this this there's really not much
juice here I don't this can only go so
deep controlling Behavior emotionally
but also I guess physically controlling
behavior when we when we often think
about narcissists we think of like sort
of domestic violence and this kind of
thing is that quite typical of a
narcissist to engage in domestic vience
so here's we get to an interesting
question you're from the UK and I have
to say actually of all the countries in
the world the UK actually has had has
taken the front I think the the the
highest front position in terms of being
very creating public policies around
understanding the psychological elements
of domestic violence it was actually a
coer of control laws first showed up in
the UK so I this is my personal belief
Stephen and this is my personal belief
and I will hold to this personal belief
100% I believe all domestic abusers are
narcissistic without exception and I'll
tell you why I think that the capacity
to tell someone I love you I'm going to
care for you we're in a
relationship and then to emotionally
physically or sexually assault them
that's zero empathy that's tremendous
entitlement
it's incredible
arrogance that's narcissism there's a
lack of self-awareness there's a lack of
awareness of the other and I think this
is why so much of the domestic violence
intervention programs they don't work
because how are you going to undo
someone's
narcissism so that's my belief and I
know that this has been a this is very
controversial conversation in the field
of domestic violence back in the 70s
there's a real push back on this I don't
think that anyone who does domestic
violence work will ever doubt that
there's a personality issue in these
folks but the concern was if we made it
about narcissism will pull the focus
away from their behavior right but I
think the two things go together the
behavior is unacceptable I don't give a
damn if they're narcissistic and this
whole idea of does the narcissism excuse
the behavior never if behavior is
unacceptable it's unacceptable I don't
care about the backstory because it
means it's going to happen again and it
always
does narcissism in work how do I know if
my boss or my manager or my CEO is a
narcissist and what should I do about it
do I quit the job so if you believe that
someone you report to a manager or a
boss or someone like that in a job is
narcissistic you're going to feel it in
the sense of you don't feel seen you
don't feel valued you feel like the
workplace is unpredictable you feel like
it's unfair that it's inequitable you
might even feel that it's
psychologically UNS safe you might feel
that the way people are praised and get
credit for their work again it doesn't
have Rhyme or Reason it is inequitable
it might be a very there might be a lot
of Gossip in the workplace those are the
things that would suggest a workplace is
you have you might be working for
someone who's narcissistic it's a tough
one it might a lot of this might depend
on the nature of your organization I
always tell people if you suspect that
you're boss or manager or someone you
report to is narcissistic start
documenting the hell out of it because
the one thing HR doesn't care is you you
cannot roll up to an HR office and say I
think my manager is narcissistic you're
going to need documentation which means
saving emails and text messages and
voicemails and meetings me U minutes of
meetings and you know you you're going
to need as much information try to avoid
meetings alone all that stuff to have
that sort of evidence base if you're at
a large enough company where you might
be able to switch to work under someone
else's management especially if you
still believe in the company some people
might say I love the organization I
can't stand working with this person
they may find that working with someone
else will allow them to preserve in the
institution but in a smaller employer or
where that is not possible some people
might try to stick it out the best they
can but documenting is not going to make
it easier so some people will find that
ultimately if they can't Outlast the
narcissistic boss or manager which they
often can't they will look for other
employment some people also find a lot
of solace in collaboration so just
because you work for a narcissistic
manager doesn't mean you're colleagues
are narcissistic and there's some
interesting research suggesting that
some really in um powerful collaborative
relationships can come when the
leadership is narcissistic but the the
teams actually come together even
stronger it's almost like they're United
against a common enemy I want to make
sure I've given enough advice to someone
who is currently dealing with a
narcissist all of the things that you've
said to them ring true they they can
relate to everything you've
said are you telling them to get out of
that situation no and it's something is
very very important to me is that people
don't feel compelled that they have to
get out cuz I can't always get out and I
think if we said if we put that forth as
the only pathway then people who can't
get out might say that now what I'm just
supposed to sit here and suffer and the
answer to that's
no in in in my in my book what I talk
about is this idea if you're gonna if
you're going to stay in a relationship
like this right for whatever reason
could be a family member and you you
don't you still don't want to fully walk
away from your family of origin it could
be a long-term marriage and you've got
minor children or there's Financial or
cultural reasons it might be a job
you've had for a long time and you're
not financially in a position to step
away from it it might be a friend you've
had a long time your reasons are yours
and so I always say to people you must
never feel pressure unless it's
dangerous let's take dangerousness out
of the equation right you don't feel
compelled to do what people say it's
going to be harder if you stay it is
going to be harder because you're still
being exposed OS to their manipulative
invalidating unkind unsettling
destabilizing behavior however the first
step the key step is what I call radical
acceptance this is not going to change
this is it there is going to be no
someday better it's not going to get
better when he gets a promotion it's not
going to get better for her when the
kids grow up your mom's not going to get
soften with age this is it folks you now
know what this looks like it is not
going to change substantially their
behavior is not going to change substant
stantially so if you're going to stay in
it your workarounds are going to be
based on knowing that you have to have
very realistic expectations now what
happens though is when people initially
have this level of radical acceptance
they have a tremendous amount of grief
because a lot of Hope was keeping them
going I thought it was going to get
better someday I thought maybe that
someday would come the staying means
that someday is not going to come and so
that means that you're not as once you
radically accept you're not as surprised
by their behavior cuz a lot of people
get exhausted from the number of times
over years or decades they're like I
can't believe they did that I can't
believe they did I'm like can we just
stop that part and say of course you
believe they did it in fact we could
have set a clock by the idea that they
would have done it by the fact they
would have done it that's a big piece of
this but the grief of letting go of what
you wanted these things to be that's its
own process and grief takes time but you
know as you come around through through
that as you come around the bend on that
you really do radically accept you need
some tools and probably the biggest tool
of all is social connection with people
who are healthy empathic attuned
responsive compassionate and respectful
whether that means you make you you
might have friends who already are this
for you it might be enhanced by getting
into therapy you might join a support
group you might meet friends at work
there's many ways you might try to do
this but you're going to need it because
if you're going to stay you're going to
need spaces where you're not gaslighted
you're going to need spaces where you
are seen where you are valued where you
are cherished that becomes the pathway
to surviving and then it doesn't feel
good to feel like you're in a marriage
where you're phoning it in for the rest
of your life but you know people people
say that now that I'm not as surprised
by their behavior it's a little more
bearable I've constructed a rich life
almost around this marriage and I just
sort of you know view that as sort of
the kind of annoyance in the side of the
room that it is some people people say I
happen to adore my my sister but I can't
stand my narcissistic parent and you
know I so but I'm going to stay in touch
with them so I can also have the family
gatherings that matter to my sister but
I no longer have conversations with my
mother or one person I know said she
would regularly visit a narcissistic
father because nobody else would give
him the time of day and he he needed a
little bit of assistance she said I'd
set a timer 90 minutes max once the 90
minutes rang out I said well I got a
jump he'd always yell at her she said
but better to yell at 90 minutes than at
3 hours either way he was going to yell
so people get into this space of
accepting what this is and its
limitations some people over time may
still decide to leave but not at that
moment but staying and not radically
accepting it will destroy you can you be
happy in a relationship with a
narcissist do you think you can be happy
but not with the relationship so you
don't think you can be happy with the
relationship I don't think so no I I
think you can see it with its
limitations and and I think you know
I've met people who said who have told
me everything about
narcissistic um Partners who said they
happen to be able to do this one sex
thing I love and so that's just I mean
all the rest of it's awful we can't end
anyhow so we do the sex thing and it
works for me um some people will say we
both love watching period dramas and
that's they're my person to do period
dramas with someone else said we we
obsessive about collecting antique
fountain pens and I really can't stand
spending time with him but we get
excited when we find a new pen someone
else said he's a hell of a Scrabble
player you find the one or two things
that work for you is it happy I mean
again we're getting back into philosophy
there that sense of it you know what's
happy on that point of sex are
narcissists better in better depends on
what you call Better I actually just
recently did there's a big piece in USA
Today on this that I'd been interviewed
for they are very performative lovers
they are as you can imagine they like
they they they almost want Applause
after the sex act right because they
need admiration and validation so they
actually can be rather invested in
getting a partner off because they want
to be told oh my gosh you're the best
lover ever they might want to be very
like mirror sex so they can see their
body or your body because it's all again
very performative but some narcissistic
folks are very selfish lovers the sex
can be a little bit porny like it's a
bit you know like a bit over the top and
like I said it feels performative and um
but for some people where it gets into
Dangerous Waters is when people are
narcissistic relationships and they feel
like they're having sex just to go along
just to keep the trains of the
relationship going along and that's a
very unhealthy precedent so it can be on
a spectrum from sort of ridiculous
performative sex to maybe they're
skilled that they want to sort of show
off but then they're like a little
six-year-old who wants to get a lollipop
for having done a good whatever on you
and then all the way up to stuff that
feels almost coercive Superman has
Kryptonite and in the context of the
Superman story Kryptonite is the thing
that um he's kind of allergic to the
thing that kind of you know defeats his
very strong set of powers for a
narcissist what is their Kryptonite what
is the thing that you know makes them
fall to their knees and that they run
from when they see it in a person a
trait
maybe I think that for a narcissistic
person there's a couple of ways
Kryptonite can show up I think that the
Kryptonite that we could bring into it
is not engaging with them anymore right
not giving them the satisfaction of the
fight not getting into the mud with them
we have to be strong in the face of that
because they're going to want the fight
so they're going to push and they're
going to push and they're going to push
and push and try to poke us and make us
take the fight because they're really
good at fighting another thing that's
Kryptonite for a narcissistic person is
a person who's much much more powerful
than them because they they do feel they
sort of feel cowed by them so if they me
like I said I gave you the example of
the sort of middle level narcissistic
person working in a large organization
and then they meet the big CEO and it's
really really great if you had one of
those empathic CEOs and then the
narcissistic person who's almost trying
to get into the good books with this
empathic CEO and all their usual tricks
aren't working that would definitely a
bit of be a bit of kryptonite too that
the very person that they Envy wants
them to be sort of warm and fuzzy and
all the things that they have contempt
for but I have to say not engaging with
a narcissistic person is the ultimate
Kryptonite and not sort of oooing and
eyeing narcissistic people are very used
to people oooing and eyeing over them
what about authentic
I saw you talk about that once that they
don't like people that are authentic
they feel threatened by people who are
authentic so and to show up as your
authentic self in a narcissistic
relationship can actually be say
dangerous I put dangerous in quotes it's
not like they're going to beat you up
but they're not going to have it right
your true self your authentic self
they're going to mock it they're going
to have contempt for it they're going to
if if you're not solid in that authentic
identity they're going to attempt to
dismantle it which is why many people
struggle if they don't know they're
dealing with a narcissistic person they
may struggle with authenticity in a
narcissistic relationship because it
gets dismantled it's hard enough for us
to get to authenticity if somebody wants
to dismantle it especially when we're
younger I think authenticity the odds of
it happening grow with age it's young
it's hard to be a young authentic person
but if you remain solid in your
authentic identity around the
narcissistic person they'll actually
probably get bored and leave which is
always the Hope right they may ramp up
for a little while but then that you're
just not an interesting Target to them
anymore so then they'll sort of slowly
lose interest and walk away famous
narcissists what what what famous people
are oh [ __ ] you think all famous people
are I don't think all are but I think a
lot are because the Quest for fame is a
very narcissistically driven interest
right so I think most normal people
don't want to be famous they really
don't if you talk to average per person
do you want to be famous like hell no I
want to be able to go to the grocery
store and have no one know who I am I
want to be able ble to live my life
without being recognized so I think we
talk famous people you're saying that is
it one in five one in six seems like a
lot I'd say famous people we at 40 to
50% 40 to 50% of famous people I do I
really think it's a coin flip what about
world leaders now we're we might be
closer to 60 to 70% I mean think of what
you're signing up for it's crazy I need
to run a country I believe I can run a
country and you know what there's we
have in over history had some good
people do that but when you look at the
circus politics has become which is
performative and ridiculous and
bombastic and cruel and critical and
manipulative I don't see how someone
non-narcissistic could ever win at that
game why do we vote for narcissists why
do we put them into Power well I mean I
think that we we we're still we still do
what I call we or many of us call we
still Fawn in their in their in the face
of their Charisma I think we believe
somebody who walks around thinking that
they're all that that that they actually
have the goods I still think we fall for
the circus Barker we fall for the person
who is who is sort of selling the story
we we we vote for them we choose them
and I think we want you know this is the
best example I can give you Stephen when
we go to a magic show right I don't know
if you've ever been to a magic show this
place called The Magic Castle in La you
should you should try to go sometime
because I find it intriguing but when
you go there's no there's no such thing
as magic it's all slight of hand right
but for a moment we I don't want them to
show me the trick I want to be lost in
the magic and most of us most of us not
all I think some people want to know how
the trick is done but once we're shown
how the trick is done the magic's gone
now it's just it's it's it's dexterity
right most people don't want to know how
the trick is done we want to believe in
magic and that's why narcissistic people
don't get called out because there's
something about them there's something
that
feels you know there's a confidence they
breed because they have so much
conviction but it's misplaced conviction
it's not not conviction backed by facts
or Integrity it's just they just believe
it because they think it's true and it's
going to forward their cause so that
becomes a selfing exactly but we believe
most of us don't have that kind of
conviction we doubt ourselves we
question ourselves and so when someone
comes in with absolute 100% I wanted to
bang my hand but I didn't 100%
conviction we're like wow then they must
really know what they're talking about
leaders have conviction but in fact when
we see a leader who's circumspect who
might say well give me a minute I want
to weigh both sides of this those
leaders are often viewed as more
weak-minded and are less likely often to
get the vote if our adversary in another
country is a narcissist you know like a
Putin or I know Kim Jong whatever he's
called um would we rather our leader
that's against him be a narcissist as
well that's a fantastic question do we
want a narcissist fighting a narcissist
I would say
that the problem with a narcissist
fighting a narcissist is that they lose
track of what is good for their people
MH so they could drag them into a
conflict or a problem that could harm
the populace economically physically
battles Wars the whole nine yards right
and that's what a narcissistic person is
more likely to do because they can't be
the smaller one in the fight it's all
about e it's two egos fighting each
other they can't just say okay no but an
overly empathic leader might do a little
bit of saying okay and then a
narcissistic or a psychopathic leader
will absolutely sort of railroad that
person that sort of perfect midlevel
sort of
wise
circumspect aware of the needs of the
populace but aware of the psychology of
the perpetrator is what we want I have
to say if I ran the world Stephen and I
don't not even even long shot and I wish
I was more grandiose because really my
career would be fire if I was but I'm
not and so but I wish what one place I
wish we really brought more narcissism
training is into di diplomacy I wish
more of the diplomats around the planet
secretaries of state and un
Representatives understood narcissism
because I think a lot of times people
are making bad deals where a lot of
people are getting hurt and they're
trying to negotiate with people you
cannot negotiate with anyone who's ever
tried to negotiate with a narcissistic
spouse knows that it's impossible it's
no different with a world leader and I
think a lot of innocent people have been
incredibly harmed as we diddle around
and try to negotiate with narcissistic
world leaders and just simply aren't
willing to call them out for what they
are what is the most important thing we
haven't discussed that we should have
discussed I would say the most important
thing that we've discussed is that I
don't want people to leave this
conversation thinking it's all doom and
gloom people can take themselves back
from these relationships this isn't like
sort of some terrible deterministic
destiny that I've been through a
narcissistic relationship so I'm never
going to be authentic I think what's
remarkable is once people learn about
this and they're taught about this and
the Dynamics of it and they're given
permission to call abusive Behavior what
it is they're able to slowly but surely
start coming back into themselves no
longer shaming themselves for having a
need or a want or a feeling or a hope
people do heal and I've seen remarkable
stories of people coming back from
familial narcissistic abuse marital
narcissistic abuse long-term commit
relationship narcissistic abuse
workplace narcissistic abuse and out of
it have come out so much wiser stronger
finally enacting their creative selves I
really want people to leave this episode
knowing all the Dynamics but that not
only is healing possible it happens all
the time to people but it's work and
it's not an easy
process if you've seen my most recent
post on LinkedIn you probably have seen
that I'm on a bit of a hiring spree at
the moment across my company flight
group trying to find the world's best
talent and throughout these years of
build building these businesses my first
Port of Call for hiring has always been
LinkedIn jobs who are a proud sponsor of
this podcast this is because of two
reasons number one LinkedIn isn't just
another job board it has a vast network
of more than a billion professionals and
quality candidates which I believe makes
it the best place to find in higher
professionals you can't find anywhere
else and number two their process and
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we have a closing tradition where the
last guest leaves a question for the
next guest oh in the Diary of a CEO not
knowing who they're leaving it
for the question here that's been left
for you is
which was your darkest day and how did
you turn the lights
on I was stalked by someone who went who
sexually assaulted me and um it was sort
of this nightmarish Collegiate
Experience before you would report these
things I'm I'm again I'm quite a bit
older than you and it was it was
horrific I it was just absolutely
horrific and there was I didn't
understand I talk about not knowing what
narcissism was I was was I was much
younger as I'm still my teens early 20s
um but you that one experience you
learned so much about what trauma does
to us but I it was it was absolute
Terror I was being stalked all the time
I didn't know what to do we didn't
understand this stuff then we did not
understand we did not talk about it it
was we didn't have cell phones it was
still like it still back in the these
dialing phones days and the person just
kept Breaking Me Down breaking me down I
didn't know what I was dealing with I
didn't have a lot of self self-esteem I
didn't know who to ask and you know it
was sort of and then it was um yeah it
was what it was and so probably is what
propelled me to want to work with people
who are doubted by systems and who are
to help me want understand trauma A
system that doubted you there was
nowhere to go with that stuff to this
day when women bring um
reports of sexual assault or abuse on
college
campuses they're they're believed
they're not believed more often than
they are believed they're blamed there
wasn't even a I didn't even know where
to go I didn't know where to take it I
didn't know who to tell it's fine I mean
I I when I say it's fine i' like I've
done the work I've been supported
through therapy but you just didn't know
where to take it with they an narcissist
that person who did it I didn't know
them well enough at the time time there
was someone who was sort of peripherally
known to me yes for sure I say
vulnerable narcissist actually which I
think by far even some ways is com is at
level with the the the danger of the
malignant narcissistic person and in
that time Stephen very frankly like
doing this work I don't know what your
experience has been as a public person
but maybe as a woman woman of color it's
it's a little more risk is that I've had
people um say very dangerous things to
me in online spaces and issue some real
threats towards me
and it all came back at me in fact we
had something like this happened in the
last few years and it just it flooded me
I I'd really compartmentalized that
piece and it was um and it all comes
flooding back when when you went through
something like that when you felt again
back then it wasn't online stocking it
was using phones it was following you
places my things were being stolen it
was a lot of gaslighting my things would
be stolen then my things would be put
back so the campus police didn't believe
me they'd said you said your stuff was
so stolen but your backpack is right
there but the person would take my
backpack and then put the backpack back
in its place can I ask how did that end
um I left the
university is is that why you left the
UN has that inspired why you were
focused on working on this subject
matter at all no no I I I think I'm like
most people should try my I I don't mean
to laugh about it but I
compartmentalized it you know and I'm
saying like as we mostly dissociate from
our pain and so um consciously it's uh
no not consciously I think dissociation
is a very protective mechanism I think
the the way the mind and the body work
when we've gone through trauma I think
the body's beautiful and how it tries to
protect us um I think the mind is also
trying to protect us and together like
these these are painful things but the
problem is them getting pushed away
actually doesn't do us any favors if you
will you know what I'm saying and so um
but
yeah well thank you thank you for um
taking the time to write such brilliant
important books on a subject that is
still not welln enough H in the way that
you go about both your videos your
content more broadly but especially your
books is so important because you're
giving information in a very very
accessible way and information is always
and awareness is always the first step
in being able to do something about your
situation and there must be so many
thousands hundreds of thousands of
people millions of people that have been
exposed to your work it's heightened
their awareness and because of that
they've taken a step out of a situation
that wasn't serving them that was
hurting their health and happiness and
towards a better place and that is a
really remarkable thing that is a really
really remarkable thing this book was um
I've heard about the word narcissism but
this new book it's not you turn the
lights on for me in a really really
important way to be honest as well as a
CEO as a business leader it also made me
um ask myself a lot of questions about
myself about behavior that I have I
don't consider myself to be a narcissist
but but as I was reading about the
behaviors of narcissists and also the
impact that it can have on someone I
thought [ __ ] hell like you
know it's um as you said it's Insidious
it's Insidious and we I think I'm right
in saying that we can all
exhibit some traits of narcissism
sometimes and we kind of you know Define
that as being an our or whatever um and
it really made me want to be a better
person it really really did really made
me want to be a much much better person
so thank you for that thank you for
shining a light on this subject matter
and thank you for all the millions of
people that you've helped through your
work it's really important I love that I
I mean I think that that's such an
interesting take on is that we do
sometimes do these things that are
narcissistic but we you know not even
because we are narcissistic but to even
recalibrate those behaviors I think the
the the better we all can be the more
we're fortified should someone who has
these qualities come into our life that
we don't give up on ourselves and I
think that that's the more good we can
sort of create in our univers is that
the bad's going to happen it's the
nature of life but we'll be stronger in
the face of it so thank
you I think it was about a year ago I
became obsessed with sleep to the point
that as many of you know I pretty much
have it as a non-negotiable one of the
things that I found is a brand called
Eight sleep that sponsor this podcast
and that is the cover that I have on my
bed some of you will know that in order
to have sleep our bodies need to be a
certain temperature and there's slight
variance between all of us that's
exactly what eight sleep does it
learns more energized and more capable
to pursue our goals the podcast sponsors
that I have are brands that I love and
use and eight sleep is one of them I've
had so many technological game changes
in my life and eight sleep is certainly
one of them check it out at eight
sleep.com
stepen for Holiday
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