EMDR and Ego State Therapy with Robin Shapiro

Summary

In this insightful video, psychotherapist Robin Shapiro discusses Ego State Therapy, a method for healing trauma and dissociation by connecting and differentiating neural networks within the brain. She explains its integration with EMDR and somatic therapy, emphasizing the importance for therapists to understand ego states, particularly when working with clients experiencing dissociation. Through practical examples and personal anecdotes, Shapiro illustrates the transformative impact of this therapeutic approach on both clients and practitioners.

Takeaways

• 🧠 Ego state therapy involves working with the neural networks in the brain to differentiate or connect them in helpful ways.
• 🤗 Luna Medina Wolf and Robin Shapiro discuss the integration of ego state therapy with EMDR and somatic therapy for treating dissociation.
• 📚 Robin Shapiro is an author and expert in psychotherapy, known for her user-friendly interventions and humor.
• 👶 Ego state therapy can involve bringing a younger part of oneself into the present to show them a safe and successful life.
• 👩‍⚕️ Every therapist should have training in trauma-focused therapies like EMDR and ego state therapy due to the prevalence of trauma.
• 🏊‍♂️ A case example demonstrates using ego state therapy to help a client who nearly drowned, illustrating the therapy's practical application.
• 🤝 The integration of EMDR, ego state therapy, and somatic therapy can provide a comprehensive approach to healing.
• 👥 Ego state therapy is not limited to trauma specialists; it can be used by any therapist to work with various dissociative conditions.
• 🔄 Shapiro emphasizes the importance of dual awareness in EMDR sessions, which ego state therapy can facilitate, especially in cases of dissociation.
• 📞 The script mentions phone consultations with therapists seeking guidance on handling dissociative ego states during sessions.
• 🌐 The interview concludes with an invitation for community members to engage with the speakers, highlighting the interactive nature of the discussion.

Q & A

What is Ego State Therapy?

Ego State Therapy is a method of differentiating and connecting different neural networks in the brain, which represent various aspects of a person's experiences and learned behaviors, in a purposeful and potentially helpful manner.

How does Ego State Therapy relate to EMDR therapy?

Ego State Therapy can be integrated with EMDR therapy to work with clients who have dissociation. EMDR requires dual attention, and Ego State Therapy can help ensure that the client's 'adult' ego state is present and aware during the session, which is necessary for successful EMDR processing.

Why is it important for therapists to be trained in both Ego State Therapy and EMDR?

Therapists should be trained in both to better address the needs of clients with trauma, as they complement each other in reaching and healing different aspects of a client's experience. EMDR can help process traumatic memories, while Ego State Therapy can help differentiate and integrate various parts of the self.

What is the significance of the 'adult' ego state in the context of trauma therapy?

The 'adult' ego state is crucial in trauma therapy because it represents the part of the client that is aware of the present reality and safety. This awareness is necessary for dual attention in EMDR and helps in grounding the client during therapy sessions.

How can therapists work with clients who have recently experienced a traumatic event?

Therapists can use Ego State Therapy to help clients differentiate their current safe state from the traumatic event. For example, they might guide the client to mentally rescue their past self and reassure them of their current safety.

What is the role of somatic therapy in the integration with Ego State and EMDR therapies?

Somatic therapy can be integrated with Ego State and EMDR therapies to address the body's experience of trauma. It helps in recognizing and processing the physical sensations associated with traumatic memories, enhancing the overall therapeutic process.

How does Ego State Therapy address dissociation in clients?

Ego State Therapy helps clients recognize and communicate with different parts of their ego state that may be dissociated due to trauma. It allows the therapist to work with these parts to promote integration and healing.

What is the difference between Ego State Therapy and Internal Family Systems (IFS)?

While both are forms of ego state therapies, IFS has a specific approach focusing on a 'Self' part that oversees other parts, whereas Ego State Therapy may take various forms and does not necessarily emphasize a central 'Self' part.

How can therapists handle unexpected dissociation during a session?

Therapists can use techniques from Ego State Therapy to ground the client and bring back their 'adult' ego state. This might involve asking questions that the adult part would know, such as personal details or professional experiences.

What is the importance of recognizing and working with different ego states in therapy?

Recognizing and working with different ego states is important because it allows therapists to address the specific aspects of a client's experience that may be contributing to their distress. It helps in tailoring the therapeutic approach to the client's unique needs and experiences.

What can therapists expect to learn in Robin Shapiro's training on Ego State Therapy?

In Robin Shapiro's training, therapists can expect to learn how to identify and work with different ego states, including how to apply this approach to basic trauma, couples therapy, personality disorders, and other therapeutic situations.

Outlines

00:00

🧠 Introduction to Ego State Therapy

The video script introduces the concept of Ego State Therapy, emphasizing the brain's neural networks and how they store our experiences and learned behaviors. Robin Shapiro, an expert in psychotherapy, is interviewed to discuss the integration of Ego State Therapy with EMDR and somatic therapy, especially for clients with dissociation. The conversation highlights the importance of differentiating and connecting neural networks to facilitate healing. Luna Medina Wolf expresses her enthusiasm for Robin's approach, which she experienced firsthand during a training session.

05:00

👩‍⚕️ Ego State Therapy and Trauma Specialists

Robin Shapiro suggests that every therapist should have training in trauma-related therapies, including Ego State Therapy, EMDR, and somatic therapy, as they complement each other well. She shares a story of a client who experienced a near-drowning incident and how Ego State Therapy was used to help him process the trauma. The narrative illustrates the practical application of Ego State Therapy in a non-EMDR context, demonstrating its standalone utility in trauma work.

10:02

🤝 Integration of Ego State, EMDR, and Somatic Therapies

The conversation delves into the integration of Ego State Therapy with EMDR and somatic therapy. Robin explains her background in movement therapy and how it influenced her approach to therapy. She discusses the importance of the body's role in EMDR and how she enhances this with additional somatic techniques. The integration is shown to be beneficial for reaching different aspects of a client's experience and promoting holistic healing.

15:05

📞 Handling Dissociation in Therapy

Robin addresses the challenge of working with dissociation in therapy, particularly in the context of phone calls from therapists seeking guidance during sessions. She recounts a personal experience with a client who dissociated during a session and how she managed to bring the client's adult ego state back. The discussion underscores the necessity of being prepared to handle dissociative episodes and the importance of having a strong foundation in Ego State Therapy.

20:08

🌐 Prevalence of Dissociation and Ego State Therapy

The script explores the prevalence of dissociation, from PTSD to personality disorders, and how Ego State Therapy can be applied in these scenarios. Robin discusses the different levels of dissociation and the importance of recognizing and working with various ego states. She also touches on the differences between Ego State Therapy and Internal Family Systems, another form of therapy that deals with ego states, highlighting the unique aspects of each approach.

25:10

📅 Upcoming Training on Ego State Therapy

The final paragraph discusses an upcoming training session led by Robin Shapiro, focusing on Ego State Therapy. The training aims to provide therapists with a clear understanding of ego states and how to work with them in various therapeutic contexts, including trauma, couples therapy, and personality disorders. The session is intended to enhance therapists' ability to create functional and adaptive ego states in their clients, fostering healing and growth.

Keywords

💡Neural Networks

Neural networks refer to interconnected structures within the brain that facilitate learning, memory, and behavior. In the context of the video, they are the basis for storing all our experiences and learned behaviors, including those we may not consciously remember. The script mentions neural networks as the foundation for ego state therapy, which aims to differentiate and connect these networks in beneficial ways.

💡Ego State Therapy

Ego State Therapy is a psychological approach that involves working with different 'parts' or 'states' of a person's ego, which represent various aspects of their identity and experience. The therapy is highlighted in the video as a method to help individuals integrate and differentiate these states, often in relation to trauma or dissociation. An example from the script is bringing a 'kid part' of oneself into the present to show them a safe and successful life, illustrating the therapy's application.

💡Dissociation

Dissociation is a psychological process where a person disconnects from their thoughts, feelings, memories, or sense of identity. The video discusses it in the context of trauma, where individuals may have parts of themselves that are 'stuck' in traumatic experiences. Ego state therapy and EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) are presented as methods to address dissociation by reconnecting these parts to the present.

💡EMDR

EMDR is a psychotherapeutic technique designed to alleviate distress associated with traumatic memories. The video emphasizes the importance of integrating EMDR with ego state therapy, especially when working with clients who have dissociative symptoms. It is mentioned that EMDR requires dual attention, meaning the client must be aware of both the traumatic memory and the current safe state.

💡Somatic Therapy

Somatic Therapy is a form of therapy that focuses on the interconnection between the body and the mind. The video script mentions it as a complementary approach to EMDR and ego state therapy, suggesting that it can be integrated to address trauma more holistically. The therapy is believed to help in reaching and processing traumatic experiences through the body's sensations.

💡Dual Awareness

Dual Awareness in the context of EMDR and ego state therapy refers to the client's ability to be aware of both the traumatic memory and their current safe state. The script explains that this is crucial for EMDR to be effective, especially when working with dissociated parts of the client's ego.

💡Trauma Specialist

A trauma specialist is a professional who has specific training and expertise in treating individuals who have experienced trauma. The video suggests that every therapist should have knowledge of trauma-focused therapies like ego state therapy, EMDR, and somatic therapy, as trauma is a common issue that clients present with.

💡Personality Disorders

Personality disorders are a group of mental disorders characterized by enduring and unhealthy patterns of behavior and inner experience. The script discusses how ego state therapy can be applied to work with different personality disorders, particularly highlighting the treatment of narcissistic and borderline personality disorders by addressing the various ego states involved.

💡Internal Family Systems (IFS)

Internal Family Systems is a therapeutic approach that views the mind as an 'internal family' composed of different parts. While similar to ego state therapy, IFS has its own distinct methodology and terminology. The video script mentions IFS as an alternative form of ego state therapy, with a focus on identifying and working with a 'self' that leads the parts.

💡Derealization

Derealization is a dissociative symptom where a person feels that the world around them is unreal or distorted. In the video, it is mentioned as a type of dissociation that can be addressed through ego state therapy, requiring the therapist to help the client regain a sense of the present reality.

💡Anxiety-Provoking Part (APP)

The Anxiety-Provoking Part, or APP, is a term used in the script to describe a part of the ego that holds distressing emotions or memories. Ego state therapy aims to help clients differentiate and connect with these parts in a way that promotes healing and integration.

Highlights

Eagle state therapy involves differentiating and connecting neural networks in the brain to help with various experiences and memories.

Robin Shapiro has been practicing ego state therapy since 1982 and has integrated it with EMDR since 1993.

Ego state therapy can be used to bring a younger part of oneself into the present to show them a safe and successful life.

Every therapist should be a trauma specialist due to the prevalence of trauma in clients.

EMDR, ego state therapy, and somatic therapy are complementary approaches for dealing with trauma.

A case example demonstrates using ego state therapy to help a client recover from a near-drowning experience.

Dual awareness is necessary for EMDR to work effectively, especially in cases of dissociation.

Ego state therapy can be used to work with different levels of dissociation, including PTSD and personality disorders.

The integration of ego state therapy with EMDR and somatic therapy can yield better results than using them separately.

Robin Shapiro discusses her experience with phone consultations for therapists dealing with clients who dissociate during sessions.

The importance of identifying and working with the adult ego state in a client to ensure safety and progress in therapy.

The prevalence of dissociation in clients, even in those who do not explicitly present with dissociative disorders.

Differences between ego state therapy and Internal Family Systems (IFS), another form of therapy focusing on parts of the self.

Robin Shapiro's training in August will cover various aspects of ego state therapy, including working with trauma, couples, and personality disorders.

Highlighting the role of healthy ego states in therapy and how they contribute to a client's overall functionality.

The training will also address how to create the most functional part of the client in executive control for various aspects of life.

An invitation for community members to participate in an open conversation and ask questions related to ego state therapy.

Transcripts

brains are full of neural networks

for everything we've learned how to do

and for

all of our experience even the ones we

don't remember

you know are

way too young to remember

and eagle state therapy is a way of

differentiating

and or connecting these different

networks in choiceful

and hopefully helpful

ways

in this video luna medina wolf and i are

talking with robin shapiro about ego

state therapy

robin explains what ego state therapy is

why emdr therapists need to know

how to work with ego states and how emdr

ego state therapy and somatic therapy

integrate when working with clients with

disassociation here's the interview with

robin shapiro

[Music]

okay then hi everybody and thank you for

joining us i'm really excited because we

have robin shapiro in the room i'm going

to give you a quick intro about robin

shapiro even though probably

most if not all of you know her already

but robin shapiro relishes on doing

psychotherapy and spreading the word

about healing trauma dissociation and

disrupted attachment through clinical

consultation

workshops conferences in her five books

of course you can see two right here in

the background the one we're talking

about today

and um there's also the

trauma treatment handbook and doing

psychotherapy a comprehensive trauma and

attachment inform book for beginning

therapist

robin is known for her user-friendly

interventions humor and warmth she has

been

practicing ego state therapy since 1982

and mixing it with emdr since 1993.

she lives in seattle with her really

sweet and amazing husband doug plummer

and i'm really excited because i

attended her training in october of 2020

and it really transformed my ability to

work with trauma and association it

really did like completely i felt so

renewed after attending and training and

therefore i decided to continue hosting

her for this amazing training about

this book is the eager state

interventions that we're going to talk a

little bit about today

um

so

robin tell us

what is eager state therapy

well

our brains are full of neural

networks for everything we've learned

how to do and for

all of our experience even the ones we

don't remember

you know are

way too young to remember

and eagle state therapy is a way of

differentiating and or connecting these

different networks in choiceful

and hopefully helpful

ways

um

in fact all of you might

just go inside

right now

and

find that kid part of you inside

that maybe wasn't doing great way back

when

and bring that kid up to now

show him your

you at your work

doing a great job with a client

show them where you live now

show them the people in your life who

adore you when it hasn't gone bad

yeah

that's right

and you tell this kid

that it's your job your adult job to

take care of this child

keep them safe keep them around loving

sweet people who may or may not be like

the ones you grew up with

and um

let that

kid know that they live up here now

with you forever

okay

and hug that kid in

and that

is the basis

of rego estate therapy but there's a

whole lot more you can do with it

yeah and i love that i love holding my

child in holding that ego state in and

my therapy self is always the kindest

one of all of my parts so it's

fascinating when that happens right

can you tell people do you have to be a

trauma specialist or a trauma therapist

to utilize estate therapy

well i think every therapist should be a

trauma specialist because

that's who walks in the door

so i think that people should know emdr

ego state therapy

and some form of somatic therapy

because they mix really well we got two

nods here from my

people

because

they're all different ways to reach in

and deal with that so i think

first of all every therapist should

get training in these things

secondly

you can still do ego state therapy if

you don't have training in other dramas

because there is

there are several ways to work with

trauma

with eagle state therapy

even if something

happened last week

there's a story i i

tell a lot in the training

i had a guy who could not do emdr

when he almost drowned two weeks before

he was

a college student

he

went swimming in the middle of the night

with a bunch of drunk students

and the the moon went away

cloud went in front of it so he was down

under water and he didn't know which way

it was up

and he started swallowing water his

friends managed to fish him out

and bring him back to life i mean he

literally died and they brought him back

to life

and he could not take a shower after

that he was having

flashbacks if he went to sleep he had

horrible nightmares and somebody

that he knew

sent him to me

and we couldn't do emdr because he

couldn't settle down enough to even know

he was safe right now

so i asked him the question are you

safe right now this minute

aside from

a little bit of water in this

water glass is there any water in the

room that is drowning you

right am i going to beat you up or hurt

you i don't think so okay so look around

notice right now

and how long has it been it's been like

a week and a half

okay and this guy was a jock he was a

runner for the university

and i said all right i want you to take

your strong body

back a week and a half

and fish that idiot

out of the water

and

pull him

right up to here

before he drowns

right up to here

and show him around

no water you lived another week and a

half you made it

okay

now i want you to he's here

good

now i want you to look back there again

and

notice if

this guy

is

safe

you're safe right now look back there in

the water what feeling is there

terror

okay

grab that guy out of the water pull him

up to now

through that week wasn't the most fun

week in half of your life but

show all the way all the way up to right

now

let him know he's here we did this about

four times

and

and you could just see his body go like

this

and then he's

i said how are you doing he said

it's over

nice to think about getting in the

shower i could do that

he was a swimmer too i said think about

jumping in the pool

i could do that

i said and he says i'm such a

idiot i said i know

what did you learn from this

and he said

not to go get drunk and get in the water

ever again and never to swim on a dark

night

yes

okay

so you're not an idiot anymore are you

no and then because he was

i said go with that

and we did a little bilateral empty our

stuff

and he was like

ah

and um

so that was good

yeah can you guys hear that beeping

sound

yeah robin and i i have a question for

you um you mentioned

the the emdr the somatic piece and the

ego state piece

and

i i know i

i am great believer in in the three

approaches mdr is my main modality but i

integrate a lot of parts work

in somatic work and i think the sum is

bigger than the parts you get more when

you integrate these three

then what you would have if you just

you know hypothetically have have them

as separate modalities i'm wondering if

you can talk a little bit about that

these integrations

okay

so

i was a student of what we call movement

therapy back before there was somatic

therapy

about 40 some years ago

and

um

when i went to therapy about

44 years ago 43 years ago

um

i got ego state work i went back

and

i didn't bring the kids up to now like i

just did

but i went back and um

basically yelled at my parents

and took care of my younger self

and

it was

and so i learned how to do that and then

i took some trainings and it was part of

the hypnotic training that i was doing

back then

so i had both of those from the

beginning

so then

about 13 years later i learned emddr

and it was always mixed up

for me

emcr has a component

of the body stuff

in that you ask

what's your emotion and where do you

feel it

but i will

throw in

more stuff during it

and what i find

and like many people

it all goes together i wanted to pull

another

book off this you wanted to show a book

robin you want to go ahead and tell us

the book

one of the nicest books about therapy

i happen to have written the forward to

it

emdr therapy and somatic psychology

it's by ariel schwartz one of my

favorite people in

olive therapy and barbara mayberger who

i also adore they wrote it a lovely book

about therapy but also bringing these

two things together

and they have a little legal state work

in here too

of course

yeah

ariel schwartz is going to be our guests

in june and june 17th we're gonna have i

think you will love her yeah we we love

her already and we have she has a new

book um so we will

we'll talk about that book

and if you're on facebook

but you should print her she has the

best

photographs

of her beautiful boulder colorado yeah

from colorado yeah and we were talking

about that that integration you showed

us um

arielle schwartz and barb mayberger's

book and we were talking about that

integration of

the somatic work so we are a community

of emdr therapist so robin can you talk

a little bit about that integration of

ego state into emdr when is it required

when do you use it how does it help

well

if you have to have it if you are

working with the id people you have to

because

otherwise

you don't know what part of the person

you're talking to

and emdr only works if there is a dual

attention

okay

and if you do not have

the adult

living in 2022

who knows

that it's safe who knows it hasn't been

sexually abused for

25 years

or whatever

you know and has a job doing whatever

you know and

seven children

you know

if you don't

have that

you can't clear things people who try to

do

emdr with just

this dissociated kid part that's stuck

in the trauma

it can't work because

there's no

now now

and so

one way that some people do it is

they'll bring that kiddo that it

happened to up to now

sit it on the lap or right next to

the

um adult

here now part to watch a movie of the

bad thing that happened

and

they'll both get bilateral

you know

[Music]

so that's

that's a very simple way i learned many

many years ago

but

there has to be the

dual awareness

in every emdr session

and that's one way to get it with

big dissociation

there's other kinds of dissociation

there's the derealization

where am i

what's

what what's going on i'm just still kind

of shut down completely

you know and you have to be able to do

the work to get

the here and now and

from that old

associated state and hold both

to get that state moved

yeah i'm curious robin in the book you

write that occasionally you're getting

phone calls from

consultees who are in the middle of a

session with a client who dissociates

and

they

don't know what to do with with these

ego states what do you what do you tell

these people what do you tell your

counselees who have a client's will

these are not my consultants these are

like strangers

who know that i work with i have gotten

phone calls from people in other states

who i didn't know

but they know i know something about

dissociation and equal states

and this is before i even wrote books

you know

and i got

i get this call

and i do what i did when i met my first

did client in my office

the woman on the our third date

she

i asked her something about her

childhood

and this 37 year old woman

said

were you

where is this

and i said how old are you

for

and you don't know who i am no i'm robin

and she looked really scared and i said

i'd never hurt anybody oh

um i talked to this part for a while and

then

because i had trading in clinical

hypnosis i had kind of a clue

and i said

on the count of

four we're going to both clap our hands

at the same time and your grown-up part

is going to come back in the room and i

was like please please

and

you know one two

three

four

and she was back and i said

wow that was weird what are you talking

about

that kid part that kid that showed up

what are you talking about

obviously the id

both parties didn't know each other

and

i was in my 20s i had never i've been

trained in cognitive behavior therapy

in college you know

the other stuff i learned outside of

there and it was like okay and i

explained to her look at the clock how

did all that time pass i explained to

her what happened

i got a

i started buying books going to

trainings got a

consultant that i kept for about 30

years

david kayla wonderful guy and i'm still

he's retired but

i'm still in a group with people i've

been in the group with for 30 years we

just don't have

we just don't pay anybody to delete it

now

you know

to talk about these cases but man that's

what you do if somebody shows up

you find their adult i often if they

have kids i'll ask them

when's your kid's birthday and the adult

will come back or um

you know

they're a therapist how long have you

been in practice what kind of clients

you work with and it's like

you might just get that

adult part back then

yeah

yeah

so

you know with that being said right like

working with association as emdr

therapist do you think what percentages

of the client that come into our office

would be with some level of dissociation

well if you

believe

that one way of looking at it ptsd is a

form of dissociation

it is primary dissociation

where

you push away

the bad thing that happened you try not

to think about it or

go by that street where you had a car

accident or anything

and you've got

your what they call the amp

apparently normal part goes to work

takes care of business

and then you have the bad dreams and the

flashbacks

and that goes with the emotional part

then you have the next level of

dissociation which is

of your personality disorders

those folks they don't dissociate so

that they completely forget

unless they also have bid

but they have different parts

so

your narcissistic person

is going to have that part

that

i'm wonderful i'm great i never

make a mistake don't argue with me

you know and let me charm you

and then underneath that the part they

don't want to deal with at all

is the part that holds all the shame

that they're busy trying to fight

against

and your borderline is going to have

that you can't go on vacation what am i

going to do

no i don't want to end the session right

now i need to stay here another five

hours you know

you've got that part you've got the

you you're going on vacation you don't

care about me

and then you've got the

you're going nobody cares about me

the dorsal vagal part i'm going

then you have your dids with a whole

bunch of different parts

including

the amp that functions in front

hopefully most people have that

and then the different ages that are

tied

to different things that hold the

memories or hold the different roles

they had to not deal with the memories

and those are all considered

dissociation

so um i know a lot of people always ask

what is the difference between doing ego

state therapy with this kind of clients

or doing ifs can you touch on that a

little bit yeah internal family systems

is a form of ego states

i have had a little training in it

and i really admired the guy who

invented it whose name is out of my

brain right now dick schwartz nicki

schwartz yeah

and

um

but he has a very particular way

of doing it that's different than mine i

rip off just about everybody else

you know to do it and try to give credit

when i know where i ripped it off from

he does his own particular thing

and he has

a part i think the self that he really

is sort of like the anp

that he really

has and

he does

the trauma work differently he just has

a self

with different parts very strongly i

actually have like rescues and

stuff like that but there are

20 kinds i'm making that number of ego

state

therapies out there

and we all make it different if the

client's in front of us as if we're

smart

and his is a very particular part

and a lot of people

do really good work with it

and the person who writes about emdr

and that is joanne twombly

and she's really brilliant

yeah so so robin we want to um

shift our conversation to open our

conversation to our community members

and to invite them to turn their videos

on

uh and we'll do that in just a couple of

minutes

uh so they can have

an opportunity to ask you some questions

or maybe we'll do a little demo but

before then i wanted to ask you you have

a training in august

uh if you can tell our you know our

community members who are listening or

people are watching it online not at the

time of the recording

what is in the training how is it

helpful to therapists what are you

teaching in in this training

okay i teach very clearly

what

what are ego states

and how to work with them

for just basic trauma

for um

kind of figuring out what part of you is

up

how to work with in couples therapy with

it

how to work

with people who are abused with it

um

how to work with personality disorders

especially

borderline and narcissists

with it

i talk about the healthy ego states

too

interchangeable choiceful adaptable

socially engaged

profession

mom caregiver work

playful nerdy kids that we may have

fun

activated

ones tired parts

and what it's for understanding for

client and therapist

i'm looking at

my powerpoint from that right now

creating the most functional part of the

clients in executive control

for work relationships all parts of life

healing trauma

and how to work with the id it's

mandatory for work with different levels

and

um

i also talk

about

some other uses of it and

that are kind of obscure

but people run into

okay robin shapiro thank you so much for

your time

okay and then we're gonna see

everybody

[Music]

you