Pioneering DeFi on Bitcoin: The Velar Journey

Summary

In this insightful presentation, the founder and CEO of Valar, Mill of Valer Mik, discusses the evolution of Bitcoin's ecosystem and the challenges of unlocking liquidity. He outlines Valar's journey from its inception, through building foundational DeFi products on Bitcoin's L2s, to their vision for a decentralized future where applications seamlessly cater to diverse user needs without infrastructure isolation, aiming for a scalable and user-friendly Bitcoin economy.

Takeaways

• 🚀 The Bitcoin ecosystem is currently in a nascent stage with significant growth potential but has not yet reached 'escape velocity'.
• 💡 The speaker, Mill of Valer, is an early Bitcoin ecosystem founder aiming to provide a framework for understanding the current state and future trajectory of Bitcoin.
• 🏦 The demand for yield on Bitcoin has traditionally been met by centralized exchanges, but trust issues have arisen, prompting a shift towards decentralized solutions.
• 🔄 The lack of programmability and limited block space on Bitcoin L1 has led to the exploration of L2 solutions and sidechains for building applications.
• 🛠 Valer's journey is divided into three chapters: the philosophy of why they started, what they have done so far, and the future direction of the Bitcoin ecosystem.
• 📈 The company began with a hedge fund offering Bitcoin-denominated returns and evolved to address the need for yield on Bitcoin in a decentralized manner.
• 🌐 Valer built on Stacks, one of the early Bitcoin L2s, due to its larger user base and TVL compared to other available options at the time.
• 💼 Valer Dharma focused on creating simple D5 protocols and products to test the viability of the Bitcoin ecosystem for scaling applications.
• 🌟 Val ARA aims to kickstart the economy by building goods and services, with the world's first perex on Bitcoin being a key initiative to drive yield and price discovery.
• 🔗 Valer has built a Launchpad, a bridge for liquidity, and a platform for creating meme tokens without coding, all to facilitate project launches and community building on Bitcoin.
• 🌐 The speaker envisions a future where the Bitcoin ecosystem offers a multitude of applications and yield opportunities without the need for users to be aware of underlying infrastructures.

Q & A

What is the current state of the Bitcoin ecosystem according to the speaker?

The speaker describes the Bitcoin ecosystem as being in an interesting position, having taken off but not yet reaching escape velocity. There is a lot of interest from builders and investors, but the ecosystem is still in a middle stage of development.

What was the speaker's previous role before founding Val?

The speaker used to run a hedge fund that provided Bitcoin-denominated returns, trading perpetual inverse contracts, allowing Bitcoin holders to earn more yield on their Bitcoin.

What fundamental change occurred in 2022 that affected the crypto space?

In 2022, there were failures of centralized custodians, leading to a loss of trust in them. This event highlighted the need for decentralized solutions where people could earn yield on Bitcoin in a secure, native environment.

Why did the speaker choose to build on Stacks initially?

The speaker chose to build on Stacks because it was the bigger L2 at the time with around 5,000 monthly active users and a few million dollars in TVL, and it aligned with their vision for building on Bitcoin's native infrastructure.

What is the philosophy behind building a perpetual exchange (perex) on Bitcoin?

The philosophy is to have the price discovery of Bitcoin happen on the native Bitcoin ecosystem itself, rather than on centralized exchanges. A perex is seen as crucial for kickstarting the economy and providing yield that can be utilized across various DeFi products.

What is the significance of the Valar Dharma phase in Val's journey?

Valar Dharma was about building simple products to test the viability of the Bitcoin ecosystem. It was the first phase where they focused on creating protocols and products that would allow them to understand if the ecosystem could scale and work effectively.

What is the purpose of the Val ARA phase mentioned in the script?

Val ARA is aimed at kickstarting the economy by building goods and services on top of the tested foundation from Valar Dharma. It's about creating more advanced products that can attract a larger user base and make the Bitcoin ecosystem more appealing.

What is the speaker's vision for the future of the Bitcoin ecosystem?

The speaker envisions a future where the Bitcoin ecosystem offers a multitude of applications and ways to earn yield, with a focus on not fragmenting liquidity or isolating infrastructures. The goal is to create a seamless user experience where applications can cater to various user needs across different L2s and infrastructures.

Why did the speaker mention the importance of not isolating infrastructures in the Bitcoin ecosystem?

The speaker believes that isolation leads to fragmentation of liquidity and hinders the growth of the ecosystem. Instead, there should be collaboration and interaction between different L2s and infrastructures for the overall benefit of the Bitcoin ecosystem.

What are some of the products Val has built or plans to build to support the Bitcoin ecosystem?

Val has built a simple AMM, a Launchpad for project creators, a platform called mem stack.com for launching meme tokens without coding, and a bridge to facilitate liquidity transfer between ecosystems. They are also working on a perb deex and are focusing on expanding their products across multiple L2s.

How does the speaker view the role of applications in the future Bitcoin ecosystem?

The speaker sees applications playing a crucial role in catering to users by providing the best user experience and choosing the most suitable L2 or infrastructure for their needs in real-time, based on various factors such as security, latency, and transaction speed.

Outlines

00:00

🚀 Bitcoin Ecosystem Growth and Valar's Journey

The speaker introduces the topic of decentralized finance, particularly focusing on Bitcoin liquidity and the role of Valar in this space. The presentation is structured into three chapters, reflecting on the Bitcoin ecosystem's current state, Valar's contributions, and future prospects. The speaker shares his background in running a hedge fund that provided Bitcoin-denominated returns and the realization of the demand for yield on Bitcoin. The central issue discussed is the lack of trust in centralized custodians and the need for native Bitcoin applications that offer yield without compromising security or requiring the bridging of Bitcoin to other ecosystems. The speaker outlines the challenges of Bitcoin L1, such as limited programmability and block space, and the decision to build on L2 solutions like Stacks. The Valar Dharma phase is highlighted as a foundational step in creating simple protocols and products to test the viability of the Bitcoin ecosystem.

05:01

🛠 Building the Bitcoin Ecosystem with Valar Dharma

This paragraph delves into the specifics of Valar Dharma's development, which aimed to address the needs of the Bitcoin ecosystem by creating simple, user-friendly products. The speaker describes the creation of the world's first unisoft V2 inspired AMM on Bitcoin, which was a significant milestone achieved through self-funding and community engagement. The success of the incentivized testnet, attracting over 100,000 users, demonstrated both retail and institutional interest in yield-generating Bitcoin applications. Further developments included a Launchpad for new projects, a platform for launching meme tokens without coding knowledge, and a bridge to facilitate liquidity transfer between different ecosystems. The speaker emphasizes the importance of these foundational products in testing the ecosystem's viability and preparing for the next phase of growth.

10:02

🌐 The Vision for a Decentralized and Unified Bitcoin Ecosystem

The speaker presents a vision for the future of the Bitcoin ecosystem, drawing parallels with the evolution of the internet and the shift from web 1.0 to web 3.0. The discussion centers on the need for a decentralized infrastructure that does not isolate itself but rather works in harmony with other protocols to provide a seamless user experience. The speaker critiques the current state of web 3.0, where infrastructures are controlling narratives and isolating users, and contrasts this with the potential of a unified Bitcoin ecosystem. The goal is to create an environment where applications can cater to a wide range of users, from retail to institutional, offering diverse yield-generating opportunities with varying risk profiles. The speaker emphasizes the importance of not fragmenting liquidity and the need for infrastructures to support each other for the overall growth of the Bitcoin ecosystem.

15:05

🔮 Envisioning a Future of Interoperable and User-Centric Bitcoin Applications

In the concluding chapter, the speaker outlines a future where Bitcoin applications are interoperable and user-centric, providing a multitude of yield-generating options without the need for users to be concerned about the underlying infrastructure. The focus is on creating a seamless experience where applications can dynamically select the best infrastructure for users based on their needs and risk profiles. The speaker calls for collaboration among L2s and the broader Bitcoin community to avoid the pitfalls of fragmentation and to work towards a collective vision of a scalable and inclusive ecosystem. The presentation ends on a hopeful note, anticipating significant developments in the Bitcoin space in the coming years.

Keywords

💡Decentralized Finance (DeFi)

Decentralized Finance (DeFi) refers to financial systems that operate without traditional centralized intermediaries like banks, using blockchain technology to enable peer-to-peer transactions. In the video, the speaker discusses how the shift from centralized custodians to DeFi platforms has been influenced by the loss of trust in centralized entities and the need for secure, native Bitcoin environments for financial operations.

💡Bitcoin Liquidity

Bitcoin Liquidity refers to the ease with which Bitcoin can be bought or sold without affecting its market price. The speaker talks about unlocking Bitcoin liquidity, highlighting the demand for yield on Bitcoin holdings and the challenges faced due to centralized exchanges and bridging to other ecosystems.

💡Bitcoin L1

Bitcoin L1, or Bitcoin Layer 1, is the base layer of the Bitcoin blockchain where transactions are recorded. The speaker mentions the limitations of Bitcoin L1, such as lack of programmability and limited block space, which led to the exploration of Bitcoin Layer 2 solutions for building applications.

💡Bitcoin Layer 2 (L2)

Bitcoin Layer 2 (L2) solutions are secondary frameworks built on top of the Bitcoin blockchain to improve scalability and functionality. The speaker explains how L2s like Stacks and Rootstock have become essential for developing more advanced applications and expanding the Bitcoin ecosystem.

💡Automated Market Maker (AMM)

An Automated Market Maker (AMM) is a type of decentralized exchange protocol that relies on mathematical algorithms to price assets and provide liquidity. The speaker describes building a simple AMM inspired by Uniswap V2 on Bitcoin to test the viability of the Bitcoin ecosystem for decentralized finance applications.

💡Yield on Bitcoin

Yield on Bitcoin refers to the returns earned from holding and investing Bitcoin, typically through interest or other financial mechanisms. The speaker emphasizes the persistent demand for yield on Bitcoin, which drives the development of DeFi products to provide these returns in a decentralized manner.

💡Perpetual Contracts (Perps)

Perpetual Contracts (Perps) are a type of futures contract without an expiry date, allowing traders to speculate on the price of an asset indefinitely. The speaker highlights the significance of Perps in the crypto market, explaining their role in price discovery and the motivation to build a decentralized Perps exchange on Bitcoin.

💡Bitcoin Ecosystem

The Bitcoin Ecosystem encompasses all the applications, platforms, and infrastructure built around Bitcoin to enhance its utility and adoption. The speaker outlines the journey of the Bitcoin ecosystem, including the development of foundational DeFi products and the vision for a thriving, multi-layered environment.

💡Programmability

Programmability refers to the ability to write and deploy smart contracts on a blockchain. The speaker notes the limited programmability of Bitcoin L1 and how this constraint has driven the adoption of L2 solutions, which offer more flexibility for creating decentralized applications.

💡Launchpad

A Launchpad is a platform that helps new projects launch their tokens and gain initial traction within a blockchain ecosystem. The speaker discusses the creation of a Launchpad for Bitcoin projects, which allows founders to launch without extensive coding knowledge and supports community building and liquidity provision.

Highlights

Introduction to the current state of Bitcoin ecosystem and its potential for growth.

Emphasis on the interest from builders and investors in Bitcoin projects.

Explanation of the motivation behind starting Valar and building on Bitcoin.

Discussion on the limitations of Bitcoin L1, such as lack of programmability and limited block space.

Insight into the shift from centralized exchanges to decentralized finance (DeFi) for Bitcoin yield.

Mention of the rise of Bitcoin L2s and the choice to build on Stacks.

Introduction of Valar Dharma, the first version focused on building simple DeFi products on Bitcoin.

Launch of the first Uniswap V2-inspired AMM on Bitcoin and its success in attracting users.

Development of a Launchpad for new projects on the Bitcoin ecosystem.

Creation of Memstack.com to enable launching meme tokens without coding knowledge.

Building a bridge to facilitate liquidity transfer from Ethereum to Bitcoin L2s.

Transition to Val ARA, focused on building more complex goods and services on Bitcoin.

Introduction of the world's first perpetual exchange (Perp DEX) on Bitcoin.

Emphasis on the importance of Perp DEXs for price discovery and generating yield in the Bitcoin ecosystem.

Discussion on the future vision for Bitcoin, focusing on user experience and integration across multiple L2s.

Call for collaboration among L2s to avoid liquidity fragmentation and isolation of infrastructures.

Encouragement to focus on the application layer to enhance user experience in the Bitcoin ecosystem.

Transcripts

let's continue today's discussion and

continue the topic around decentralized

finance and talk about how we can look

at Pioneer in unlocking Bitcoin

liquidity ladies and Gentlemen please

welcome up the founder and CEO Mill of

valer mik check yeah

hey friends lots of familiar faces here

today uh welcome to the future of

Bitcoin uh when I was thinking what to

present for my 15-minute presentation I

was actually confused because uh as

Bitcoin ecosystem we have really taken

off uh the spaceship has taken off but

we haven't reached an escape velocity

yet and we also haven't escape the

atmosphere yet so we are kind of in a

very interesting position right now

where we are seeing a lot of interest

from a lot of Builders who want to build

in Bitcoin there are lots of investors

who have invested in Bitcoin projects

which are or might or might not be going

anywhere but there are still a lot of

investors who want to invest in Bitcoin

so we are kind of in middle and I

thought let me uh play my role as one of

the early Founders in Bitcoin space and

uh and give all investors Builders U and

users a framework of what's happening in

Bitcoin ecosystem what has happened

until now and where Bitcoin ecosystem is

going using the Val journey and I also

give you enough time to uh see the good

animation that our team has made here

until now so we are going to talk about

three chapters starting from why we

built well uh which would give you the

philosophy of why we started well y we

started building on bitcoin chapter 2 is

what we are doing and what we have done

until now and chapter three is going to

be where we are heading as Bitcoin

ecosystem so uh before well I was

running a hedge fund and and uh the USP

of the hedge fund was that we used to

give Bitcoin denominated returns so in

the in the liquid hedge fund that we

were running we used to do uh Perpetual

contracts trading but they were inverse

Perpetual contracts and basically

Bitcoin holders would put Bitcoin with

us and they would want to earn more

yield on their Bitcoin by using uh coin

margin PBS trading that we used to do or

inverse PBS as we call it so what I

realized very early in crypto was that

there is always more demand for yield on

bitcoin but it was it was all happening

on centralized exchanges something

fundamentally changed in 2022 when we

saw a lot of centralized custodians fail

and people lost Trust on centralized

custodians and there was only one other

option in defi where you would have to

bridge your Bitcoin to something else

some other ecosystem like ethereum or

Solana but that was also not very

trusted so the so the fundamental

solution to this and a lifetime solution

for this was to build applications using

infrastructure on bitcoin native where

people can put Bitcoin in Native secure

Bitcoin environment and earn yield on

top of it but when we looked at Bitcoin

L1 of course the problem statements on

bitcoin L1 are it doesn't have any

programmability there is limited block

space on bitcoin L1 and we talked about

the third problem which was uh it wasn't

a case where you would want to take

Bitcoin away from the Native secured

Bitcoin

environment so the only solution at that

time was to look for l2s look for side

chains and build on top of them when we

started well in early 2023 there were

two Bitcoin l2s there are over 120

Bitcoin l2s that I talk to right now so

we have come a very long way but when we

started well from those two Bitcoin elos

there was stacks and root stock we

decided to build on Stacks which was the

bigger one at that time Stacks had

around 5,000 monthly active users few

million dollars in tvl and four to five

applications live so uh when we thought

what we should build and what should be

our timeline we uh at that time I was

actually reading uh around the best

business book I've ever read in my life

that's called bhagwat Gita and around it

and I read this quote somewhere in in

The Vedas they say ARA is about

generating food by creating goods and

services by the way these are the uh

four versions of Val that we have

planned and in the chronological order

of Valar Dharma Val ARA Kama and mosa so

while Kama is satisfying this hunger in

Dharma we consider the hunger of others

and in Moka we outgrow hunger we decided

to do Valar Dharma first in which as

it's read here we consider the hunger of

others we had to build simple D5

protocols and simple D5 products without

which there wouldn't even be possible to

test if Bitcoin ecosystem would scale or

work so we literally just set out and

built a simple amm uh through uh the

road map that we created in 2023 we

wanted to build the foundation in 2024

we wanted to uh see where the ecosystem

is and try to build scaling applications

and 2025 is of course we'll see where it

goes but the first uh version that we

had valard dma we started building

simple products where we would at least

us users investors was able to test if

this is if Bitcoin ecosystem is really

viable if it's really viable to build

applications and for users to use

applications on top of it so we built a

simple amm and we then we started

building few more products so talking

about the amm we built early last year

we built world's first unisoft V2

inspired amm on bitcoin and uh we were

still self-funded at that time we didn't

know where we would be in a year or in 6

months from now but we did a

incentivized test net and we got over

100,000 users on our test net within a

few weeks which was a uh which was the

click for us especially because we saw

that we knew that there is a demand from

institutions that they want to earn

yield on bitcoin but for the first time

we saw that even retail wanted to earn

uh yield on their Bitcoin Holdings or

retail wanted to use Bitcoin specific

applications so the the amm is very

simple it's same as unisoft with good

user experience orange is the color we

chose of course because of

Bitcoin when we launched the amm we also

saw that many other people wanted to

launch uh their projects on bitcoin

ecosystem as well but they didn't know

how to create a community some of them

were first time Founders so we also

built a Launchpad in the Valar dma

version where people can come and launch

their uh projects on the Bitcoin

ecosystem when and then we realized one

more thing people wanted to launch

projects on bitcoin ecosystem but they

didn't know how to code or some of them

didn't know how to write smart contracts

there are of course security issues with

smart contracts which would uh which

would have issues in the future so we

built mem stack.com which is a platform

through which you can uh launch a meme

token without having to learn to

code we ALS and then we realize that

people who are launching their uh tokens

even through our Launchpad without

learning to code they also needed

liquidity some of their liquidity was

fragmented across different ecosystems

they wanted to bridge them from

different ecosystems so we built a

bridge where people can Bridge liquidity

from ethereum to bitcoin specific

l2s so our valara was basically about

building simple products and testing out

if Bitcoin ecosystem would work or not

that that took us more than a year it

was entire 2023 in middle of the bare

Market

uh self-funded completely ran it but we

reached a stage where uh where we saw a

lot of Bitcoin l2s coming up we saw a

lot of people started to build on

bitcoin so we decided it's time to move

on to our version two which is Val ARA

and according to uh the code that we saw

valara is really building goods and

services which means it's kickstarting

the economy so this this uh Valar Dharma

version products are good enough to test

but they wouldn't Kickstart the Bitcoin

ecosystem and make it reach a state

where it would be uh it would be really

intriguing and interesting for millions

of users or institutions to come in so

we decided to build well ARA as the

world's first perex on bitcoin and uh

the philosophy of us building a perex on

bitcoin was very uh specific and

personal to me as I said I was running a

hedge fund and we used to trade pubs

before and what I realized from that is

that uh as of today more than 80% of

entire world's crypto transactions

happens on perss which means that the

price discovery of Bitcoin happens on

perss as well but those perss are not

centralized exchanges and the ethos with

which Bitcoin was created in the first

place was to be decentralized was to

have everything on the Bitcoin ecosystem

itself so the philosophy of this was

that not just the price discovery of

Bitcoin should happen on um on Native

Bitcoin ecosystem itself but apart from

it also it's very important bbex itself

is very important because it has it it

it uh consists of most volume in the

entire space and also if you want to

Kickstart not just one product but the

whole ecosystem where there are products

like uh lending there are option markets

there are money markets there are dexes

and per dexes we you need to understand

uh lending works great when there is

good yield but where does the yield come

from the yield comes from when people

are ready to borrow the landed Bitcoins

in a huge quantity and the borrowing

also happens on perss where people trade

leverage uh people trade Bitcoin on

Leverage so literally perex is the

source of where all the yield from an

ecosystem comes from that's why we

decided to build the

pbex

uh if you see the current state of the

market like I said the binance future

daily volume is around $45 billion while

the biggest pbex in crypto right now uh

dydx is 100th of it so the growth

potential

in decentralized space especially on the

Bitcoin space because you the first was

insane and if you see the total wallet

holders of Bitcoin right now which is 53

million less than uh 10% of those hold

more than one Bitcoin which means over

90% of this Bitcoin holders hold less

than one Bitcoin it's one of the reasons

we decided to uh cater to the retail

Community before because because people

who are holding less quantity in Bitcoin

they would like to earn yield they are

not normal people They Regular People

Like Us if they're holding an asset they

like to earn yield on top of it which is

like very normal that's why we decided

to go with the perb deck so we are in

between Val Eartha right now where we

built uh we built an extended version of

our amm so it's a amm based perb deex uh

built across multiple l2s we started

with stack we are also live on testet on

bit layer and Bob uh which are great L2

shout out to them in such a short period

of time the tech they have built is

amazing

um and we are focused this year to

Kickstart not just our own our own

products but entire Bitcoin ecosystem

and I think it's really important for

entire Bitcoin ecosystem to reach a

certain stage where we have sustainable

yield regardless of bull market or bare

market and we have uh and we also have

uh a set of products that people can

sustainably use including retail and um

institutions

this brings us uh to chapter 3 chapter 3

is my most favorite chapter I think uh

that's what I think about half the day

of uh and I have thought about it for

last 2 years is where Bitcoin is heading

so uh we have to go two decades back uh

when web 1 I've by the way I've heard of

web 5 now which I have no idea about but

I'll take a step back let's talk about

web 1 when web 1 was forming there were

few infrastructure protocol OLS like uh

https ICP there was uh there was www and

this infrastructure protocols which even

we use on a daily basis right now but

most people aren't aware of these are

the infrastructure protocols on which

the entire internet today runs upon but

at that time there was no uh way for

these protocols to earn Revenue so uh

but there were there were application

providers like Google on top of it so us

so everywhere you go for any tech there

will be layers so the base layer is infr

layer on top of it there are application

layer and on top of it there are users

so in web 1 application layer uh

platforms like Google or Microsoft used

to fund these protocols because they

didn't have any Revenue generating

mechanism and they built the entire

internet we see today what difference

crypto made uh was that the base

infrastructure could launch a coin of

their own build a community around it

and for the first time they were able to

generate Revenue they were able to earn

uh rewards for the work that they have

done for building the infrastructure so

that was the difference between web 1

and web 3 but we went a bit over the

line when these infrastructures they

started controlling the narratives they

started isolating each other as

protocols and they started uh and they

started also not just catering to the

applications but also trying to cater to

the users the end user which are like

two layers above them and also try to

control them and isolate them from other

uh infrastructures if you see if you use

this example for web one it's uh it's

very similar to some something like

there are three main infrastructures in

web one which is Google App Store Play

Store and windows and it's like we have

different social media applications for

each of these infrastructures it's like

we have a Instagram for app App Store

but we have something else for Play

Store it means if I want to change my

phone I'll have to change the

application completely this is what's

happening in web 3 right now and this is

one of the reasons I think uh ethereum

failed in scaling D5 so when I say eth

was the test net it's not because it's

bad uh I don't think I'm audible I said

eth was the test

net am am I audible enough eth was the

test

net so when I say eth was the test net

it's not because I hate eth it's because

we have to learn uh from the mistakes we

made while building Def onne and we

don't have to repeat it in Bitcoin

because we have a chance because we have

a chance right now before we are too

late so how I feel by the way I hope you

like the animation again

um so this is the vision I personally

have for it's not for V I wrote it the

Val Vision uh but it's it's for entire

Bitcoin ecosystem it can take 5 years 10

years 20 years I don't know uh but how I

look at Bitcoin ecosystem to evolve is

that when any user

be it an institution or be it retail

when they come to uh when they come with

their Bitcoin Holdings to earn yield

there are hundreds of applications and

hundreds of ways to earn yield of course

any yield generating product will come

with a certain amount of risk so there

is no such thing as no risk only yield

product but there will be so many yield

generating products like the amm we

discussed about like the bridge we

discussed about like the per deck that

we are building there are so many other

products which some of our friends are

building

uh but this products should be the one

that are catering to users and for the

users the user experience should be so

simple and so easy they shouldn't even

care about which infrastructure they are

going on so I don't know how this will

happen the technology is still too far

but probably in future there will be

users uh with user profiles there will

be institutions transferring 5,000

Bitcoin at in one go there will be

retail uh trying to Leverage with 0.005

Bitcoin and these all users will have

this different risk profiles they will

have different needs and probably

applications like Val in real time will

choose which L2 or which infrastructure

works best for them including because

there will be different l2s with

different use cases there will be

different l2s on bitcoin who are

focusing on different things some will

be focusing on security more some will

be focusing on latency more some will be

uh focused on faster transactions it can

be anything but it is the application's

job not the infrastructure's job uh to

cater to these users and to and to give

the best user experience and the best

user experience doesn't come from

isolation of infrastructures it doesn't

come of doesn't come by uh by

fragmenting liquidity just because an

infrastructure doesn't want to interact

with other infrastructure so we need to

focus on the third layer which is the

application layer that's why we started

Valar and I think I think we should all

work together even as l2s that's one of

the reasons we work with a lot of l2s

and we try to convince them not to

isolate themselves uh from other

ecosystem just to just for a short-term

win but to think for the overall win of

Bitcoin ecosystem if we want to scale to

trillions of dollars if we want to scale

to millions of users we have to not

fragment the liquidity we have to not

isolate the infrastructure like how

etherum and other ecosystems were doing

I hope uh I hope we see this future uh

that we want to see but this is what I

think uh thanks a lot I'm way over time

but thanks a lot for coming uh it's it's

a great few years ahead for Bitcoin

regardless of whatever happens and

you'll see us much more uh in coming

weeks and months thanks a lot Mel tagur

[Music]

[Applause]